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“Wait, Is This a Date?” Podcast Episode 202: Boundaries

As far back as I can remember, I’ve always wanted to talk about sex. (cue “Rags to Riches”) According to my mom, I’d ask questions about sex from a very young age and when she told me to ask again when I was older, I’d ask again the next day saying, technically, I was older. Long before I started dating and having sex, sex and dating were the most interesting conversation topics to me. And they still are!

But as I’ve grown older I’ve also learned that some aspects of my personal life are better kept private. I was never crass — it’s just for myself I’ve learned that even if someone wants to hear about my life, it’s not always in my best interest to share. I’ve had to learn boundaries.

Now some people are the opposite. Some people have never been quick to share details of their personal lives. Even people who are actively dating and actively selfish like to keep that stuff to themselves. I’m fascinated by these people. Nothing makes me register how different people are quite like realizing deep into a friendship that I barely know anything about who someone is dating or fucking if I know they aren’t ace or aro.

One such friend is Autostraddle’s editor-in-chief Carmen Phillips. Now as we’ll discuss, Carmen is my boss here at Autostraddle so that explains some of her boundaries. But even outside our friendship, Carmen admits that she isn’t quick to share details from her personal life. Christina and I get into this with Carmen as we all examine that when it comes to boundaries our strengths are our weaknesses and our weaknesses are our strengths.

And before that we play our classic game “Fuck, U-Haul, Ghost” — but a special edition where Christina asks me about my favorite actors from Letterboxd.

SHOW NOTES

+ Raven-Symoné’s chaotic gay TikTok.

@ravensymone

#🌈 #wlw #truthoflife

♬ original sound – AB

+ Here’s my Letterboxd list, Actors Who Have “It”.

+ We don’t have a lot of show notes today so here’s my favorite movie from every actor Christina asked me about.

Angela Bassett – Malcolm X
Joan Crawford – Johnny Guitar
Bette Davis – The Little Foxes
Kirsten Dunst – Marie Antoinette
Jane Fonda – They Shoot Horses, Don’t They?
Anne Hathaway – Rachel Getting Married
Katharine Hepburn – Bringing Up Baby
Anna Paquin – Margaret
Susan Sarandon – Thelma and Louise

+ You can currently get the new Criterion edition of Mississippi Masala half-off at Barnes & Noble.

+ Also while I can’t in good conscience suggest the movie 3 AM, I do recommend watching the first five minutes when Sarita Choudhury is being a hot mean mommi boss.

Christina: Honestly, if I know our readers and listeners, they’re going to say, “Yes, we too understand social anxiety.” I think you’re in good company here in this.

Carmen: It’s in the queer person starter kit. It’s right there.

[theme song plays]

Drew: Hi, I’m Drew.

Christina: I’m Christina.

Drew: And welcome to Wait, Is This A Date?

Christina: Wait, Is This A Date? Is an Autostraddle podcast dedicated to the singular question, Wait, is this a date? Which is to say it’s about dating and being gay and stuff that we like, right?

Drew: Yeah. Wow. I think we did that really good for this being our second episode back, it felt like we’ve been recording episodes nonstop for a few years and really in a rhythm, really in a rhythm, really going.

Christina: Yeah. They call me the Ira Glass of gay podcasting.

Drew: I think they should.

Christina: I don’t know, imagine.

Drew: Hey, hey Christina. You’re the Ira Glass of gay podcasting. Now someone said it, people are saying it.

Christina: People are saying it. I was going to try to do an Ira Glass impression, then I said, “Why do that to yourself, to anybody?”

Drew: As your friend, I’m going to have you do that off-recording first, and then we can bring it for next episode if we realize you can do it well.

Christina: I already can tell you I don’t have it. I do not have that impression in the bag, but hey, I can—.

Drew: Maybe by the end of the season. End of the season? Yeah. Okay. Let’s say who we are. I’m Drew Gregory, I am a writer for Autostraddle and a filmmaker. I’m queer and I’m a trans woman.

Christina: I love how always there’s a light pause between I’m queer, it’s like is it today? Is it coming out today?

Drew: I really know that I’m a writer for Autostraddle and I’m a filmmaker, those identities super solid. Filmmaker, years and years and years, Autostraddle, also coming up on years and years and years. I’ve been a staff member for Autostraddle for longer than three years, which is a little bit wild. I’m not even close to one of the newbies anymore. I’m the opposite of a newbie.

Christina: You’re very ancient and wizened.

Drew: But then when it comes to gender and sexuality labels, yeah, those things are… Who knows?

Christina: Well, let’s see what I’ve got. I’m Christina Tucker, I’m also a writer at Autostraddle, a writer for other places as well, a podcaster and always some kind of gay lesbian type who’s around here making trouble and putting highlighter on. I guess that’s what I do in a day to day experience. We’re going to play a game today, Drew.

Drew: Oh, I love games.

Christina: I love introing it, like we don’t always play a game. But in honor of season 2, I wanted to bring us back to our classic “Fuck, U-Haul, Ghost.” And I wanted to do something fun. So I went through your Letterboxd and I, first of all, would like to say congrats to your Letterboxd for being really, gorgeously organized. A lot of different categories, I have a lot to play with.

Drew: Thank you.

Christina: So I am doing three rounds of fuck, U-Haul, ghost, from your list of actors who have It.

Drew: Ooh, great.

Christina: I was going to bring up your description and actually read verbatim what your description of actors who have It. And then I was like but I could just ask Drew to tell us herself what she just means by actors who have It.

Drew: Yeah. I don’t remember what I wrote on Letterboxd, but I was just thinking about how there are… I think it actually, this is going to be controversial because I know people disagree with me on one of these people, but I went to see The Lost City and was very much like oh Channing Tatum has it. And despite some great, great roles in her filmography, I don’t think Sandra Bullock has it. And it doesn’t mean that she’s not good, it doesn’t mean… I was just like actors who I could watch do anything who just have that spark that I just want to stare at. And there are actors who have given some of my favorite performances ever, who I also don’t feel that way about, like Cate Blanchett. I think I maybe even say this in the Letterboxd description.

Christina: You say this in Letterboxd. Yeah.

Drew: Because I want to clarify that like Cate Blanchett’s incredible and in so many of my favorite movies, but she doesn’t have that quality where I would watch her do anything. So yeah. That’s my spiel.

Christina: All right. That’s a great spiel. All right. So we have, the first category is what I’m calling classic. We have Joan Crawford, Bette Davis, Katharine Hepburn.

Drew: I mean, I’m obviously U-Hauling with Katharine Hepburn.

Christina: You have to, you kind of have to.

Drew: That’s no question. No offense to the feud, but Katharine Hepburn is my U-Haul, I’d anything with Katharine Hepburn.

Christina: I just love no offense to the feud.

Drew: And then… God, now I feel like I have to pick though, because—

Christina: Well you definitively do is why you feel that way. Yeah.

Drew: I’m a big fan of Joan Crawford’s and Bette Davis’. I am going to fuck Joan Crawford.

Christina: That feels like the right choice

Drew: Because of Johnny Guitar, almost exclusively because of Johnny Guitar. I mean, there’s a lot of other movies, but Johnny Guitar is the one that I have to, that’s swaying my opinion. But then I think of Little Foxes. No, I’m gonna— Joan Crawford.

Christina: The fun thing about this game is that no matter who I give you, there’s always this incredibly serious reflection. You always feel kind of bad as if these women are going to come and yell at you, which in fairness, I would be terrified of Joan Crawford coming to yell at me from beyond.

Drew: I don’t know. I just got a little aroused thinking about that.

Christina: Well, yeah. Terrified and aroused go hand in hand, I find quite often. All right, now we have Girlies TM category, Kiki Dunst, Anne Hathaway, and Anna Paquin.

Drew: Once again, the U-Haul is easy for me. Kirsten Dunst, U-Haul easy.

Christina: Yep. That tracks.

Drew: One of the best filmographies, I think, of any contemporary actor.

Christina: Yeah. Kind of just straight bangers.

Drew: Just so good. And such variety. And also whenever she talks about her relationship with Jesse Plemons, it’s so sweet and that just sounds lovely. It sounds lovely to be in a relationship with Kirsten Dunst. Anne Hathaway and Anna Paquin. See, I would think that Anna Paquin makes more sense to be someone you fuck than Anne Hathaway.

Christina: Interesting.

Drew: But I am going to go with Anne Hathaway.

Christina: Okay.

Drew: I think it’s just the years of theater and having crushes on fellow theater kids that make me so attracted to Anne Hathaway, but I am very attracted to Anne Hathaway. I’m very attracted to Anna Paquin, but I’m going to go with Anne Hathaway.

Christina: I mean, Ann Hathaway literally looks like ding, dang, snow white. I get it. It’s kind of bonkers, there’s a whole deal she’s got going on there. All right. And now we’re doing what I’m calling Legends Only category. Angela Bassett, Jane Fonda, Susan Sarandon.

Drew: Oh, that’s so hard. Oh my God. That’s so hard.

Christina: This one is really hard. And legends are hard, it’s hard to fuck with legends or to ghost them or to U-Haul with them.

Drew: Yeah. It’s hard and it’s really tough. I can’t ghost any of them, but…

Christina: Just for the listeners, Drew has entered a space of thoughtful prayer and reflection. What will she choose next? She’s making a face like I’m stabbing her personally, very slowly.

Drew: I just, my first thought was you have to U-Haul with Jane Fonda. Jane Fonda has been, maybe even longer than Katherine Hepburn, been my lifelong crush. I love Jane Fonda so much. It is complicated with the fact that, I mean, I think Jane Fonda is maybe 10 years older than… I mean, I know we said Bette Davis and Joan Crawford, so clearly we’re not going with present day people, I’m assuming.

Christina: We are not.

Drew: So, okay. Because I was going to be like, “I have some limit of the age gap situation. And I do think that Jane Fonda is maybe a little old.” I think Angela Bassett and Susan Sarandon I would. I mean, I would also Jane Fonda for the story and just to hang out with Jane Fonda, but…

Christina: Realistically, she is in a very different age range.

Drew: Yeah. But I can’t ghost Jane Fonda. Can I?

Christina: Well, I mean, I can’t answer that question. I wouldn’t personally.

Drew: Okay. I’m going to present to you my two options that I’m stuck between. I do think I have to fuck Susan Sarandon. I think I can’t not fuck Susan Sarandon and I just can’t decide if I want to U-Haul with Jane Fonda or Angela Bassett. I think it does depend on the era too, right? Because Jane Fonda in Radical French politics era is both very attractive to me, but also I don’t want to have to hang out on the set of a Jean-Luc Godard leftist movie. That is not fun for me. So, there are some caveats there. This is what I’m saying, is that I can’t ghost either of them. I can’t do it. Not that they would know, but I genuinely can’t.

Christina: No. I think that is the correct answer because also my gut also said, “You have to fuck Susan Sarandon.” Something about that energy just says that she’s crazy in bed. I don’t know what it is, couldn’t tell you. I just look at that woman and I say she’s nuts in the sack. And I love that.

Drew: Also she has great politics too. I think this is great. It’s not just legend. What makes a legend to me, and maybe to you as well, or at least you know it would make a legend to me and you’ve made this game for me, is that not only are all of these women some of the most attractive women to ever live and also the most talented and have incredible filmographies, but they’re also politically sound.

Christina: Yes. That is why I picked them. Because I do know you.

Drew: I mean, I shouldn’t say that, because someone’s going to comment, “Well, did you know that in 1995, blah, blah blah said, blah, blah, blah.” And I’m sure they’ve said bad things because they’re famous.

Christina: They’re human people. Yeah.

Drew: Yeah. Also Susan Sarandon was in that bad trans movie with the Elle Fanning playing a trans boy. So we know we’ve all made mistakes. But overall a great trio. I would love to get brunch with the three of them, would love to hang out with any of them, would love to U-Haul or fuck any of them.

Christina: I think that makes total sense, and I do think I set you up in a trick way that would say that you couldn’t actually answer that final one with the parameters of the game. You can’t ghost any of those women. You just can’t.

Drew: No that’d be absurd.

Christina: It’s against the law.

Drew: They could ghost me. I’d be honored.

Christina: Oh God, it would be… To get a read receipt from Angela Bassett, I would save it for the rest of my life. Are you kidding me? I think it’s time we dive into the meat of this here ep.

Drew: Our topic this week is boundaries and we have a very special guest who we are going to let introduce herself.

Carmen: Hi everyone. I am Carmen Phillips, I am the editor-in-chief of Autostraddle. I identify as queer and Black and Puerto Rican and I guess that’s it. Did I cover all the bases?

Christina: That’s up to you only. You can say what all the bases are in many ways.

Carmen: I mean that is very fair.

Christina: Yeah. We’re doing boundaries today. So if it felt good to you, then it felt good to us.

Carmen: True enough. Okay. Those feel like good boundaries for me today.

Christina: Of course.

Drew: Great. Well, starting with season one, we wanted to have you on to talk about this because I consider you a close friend, but I also know less about your dating and romantic life than any of my other close friends. And I think some of that is because you are my friend and you are also though… I don’t know. Would you say sort of my boss or just my boss? Probably just my boss.

Carmen: I’d say I was your boss.

Drew: Great. Yeah. As Autostraddle moves into a better boundary organization, I think you are objectively my boss. And so maybe that’s part of it. I also do think you are just someone who I’m impressed with in the way that you manage to be a writer and a writer who writes personally and brings yourself into all your writing in a way that I really respect and look up to. But also you have very good boundaries in your work, I feel. I feel like you’re very thoughtful about what you include and what you don’t include. So it was so obvious I wanted to learn from you. I wanted to bring you on… Some of these are so we can roast people. This one, I want to just learn from your wisdom.

Carmen: I mean, part of that is just social anxiety. And so right now for our listeners, just so you know, I’m sweating through this t-shirt. We’re doing great here. A lot of social anxiety, which I am conquering today for this podcast, for y’all.

Christina: We’re honored.

Drew: I really appreciate that.

Christina: We really do. We really do.

Carmen: I just want to let the readers know where I am so that later they’re not like, “What the hell, Carmen?”

Christina: I think they’re going to appreciate it. Honestly, if I know our readers and listeners, they’re going to say, “Yes, we too understand social anxiety.” I think you’re in good company here in this.

Carmen: It’s in the queer person starter kit. It’s right there.

Christina: Just be a little nervous, just be a touch nervous.

Carmen: It’s how it works. Like any good first date… Wait, Is This A Date?

Christina: Wait, Is This A Date? I think, yeah. I think, especially for me thinking, Carmen, especially about your writing, because I know I don’t write a ton of personal essays period for Autostraddle either, but when I do deign to do the personal essay, I kind of just vibe and I never really think about, what do I want to include? What don’t I want to include? Certainly not in what boundaries do I have about saying things on the internet. I think anyone who’s familiar with my Twitter feed would know I have, what’s the word? Oh, almost none.

So I think it is really amazing to me that a person can be so good at writing and so good at being online professionally and also, I don’t know, have a soupçon of couth. I think that’s incredible. How do you do it?

Carmen: Well, thank you. That is a great question. I do think part of it is because before I became a writer on the internet, I was a college professor.

Christina: That’ll do it.

Carmen: Yeah. I was a grad student with the intention of becoming a full-time professor. But I did teach at the college level for five years before I started here and I think there is a good… This is a very boring answer. I’m sorry. I should have made it sexier. But very practically, there is a part of you when you spend so much of your time in front of people and you want to connect to them every day, giving your little mini Ted Talks, but you also don’t want to be messy in front of your students, I think it gave me a sense of building a public Carmen.

And public Carmen is very different from whoever I’m dating or what I’m doing in my personal life. And so I do think I just kind of converted that skillset. I do think I could be messier online. I think I would probably be a little bit further if I was messy online, but then that’s when the social anxiety part kicks in. But yeah, I do think part of it is just having a sense of what part of myself feels okay having however many thousands of people reading it or following along and what parts of myself don’t and generally speaking, who I’m dating, what I’m doing, is definitely not usually a part of that line. And so that just makes it really easy. I think when I very first started at Autostraddle as a writer before I was even an editor, I did two sex pieces and then I was like, “I do not love this. I do not love how this feels.” And then I never did it again. So I do think that is part of it.

But as it relates to friendships, I think I’ve always been really clear about who I’m letting into which places, which is, to be fair, I think a strength as much as it’s a weakness. I don’t feel like that— It’s funny when you guys were like, “I want you to come on Wait, Is This A Date?” And I was like, “Whaaat?” You were like, “To talk about boundaries.” And I was like, “Oh yeah, that’s my brand. That sounds great.”

Christina: Everybody’s got a brand at the end of the day.

Carmen: Yeah. And that is definitely mine. But I’m not sure that it’s always a great brand. My queer family, like my best friends… I always joke, I was like, “You will never meet who I’m dating unless I’m marrying them.” That is a joke that I’ve now been saying for five years, so I might be bringing it to truth. But I was like, “By the time you meet whomever I am dating, by the time I bring them to family dinner or out on an outing, you can best believe that I plan on marrying this person.” Because the public face fall of I brought this person into my closest life around my closest people and then we did not work out, it makes the thing in me that’s a type A like go into hyperdrive.

Christina: Yeah.

Carmen: Fear of failure. This is really dark y’all, I’m sorry. I meant to make this—

Christina: I am the same. All of us just trying to communicate that we are the same.

Drew: Yeah.

Christina: I am absolutely the same. I do not really… Well, famously I don’t date. So haha. But when I do, the idea of going a second date to meeting up with friends for drinks, I don’t know anything about you by date two, why are we bringing my friends into this?

Carmen: Absolutely not.

Christina: Absolutely. No.

Drew: Yeah, I’m so open about hookups I have, or writing about my sex life, but I agree with you as far as I have to really be pretty sure about someone. I’m honestly impressed by people who will be like, “Oh yeah, this is my girlfriend.” And we’ll be like, “Didn’t you have a different girlfriend a month ago?” And they don’t care. And they’re like, “Yeah. And then we broke up and now this is my girlfriend now.” And I’m just like, “Okay.” And I’m not judging them, but I would judge myself. So I’m like, “Why would I judge myself?” But I am very cautious about that. But it’s a good sort of metric for me because I’m like, “Oh, if I want to introduce someone to my friends, then that’s a sign that I really like this person. Yes.”

Carmen: Yeah. And I do think it’s funny when you said that, because I was like, I wonder if I was ever really serious about someone, I do think I would feel more comfortable soft launching them on my Instagram than I would bringing them to dinner. If I’m imagining. You know what I mean? I’m like, okay. And by soft launch, I mean, you might see the back of this person’s head or our legs on a couch. I would feel much more comfortable bringing this person into that version of my life than I would introducing them to my friends.

Christina: Yes.

Carmen: Just probably something for me to unpack one day.

Christina: Well yeah, I think at some point everything that we discuss on this podcast is something for me to unpack at a later date.

Carmen: It’s hard.

Christina: It is hard. I do think, Drew, that point of like I wouldn’t judge somebody who did that, who did like the here’s a girlfriend, a month later here’s a different girlfriend. I’m not judging that person, but I absolutely would judge myself about it.

Carmen: Oh yeah.

Christina: In a way that I’m like, well, how much of this is actually about like I don’t want to bring this person around my friends or… How much does it actually have to do with my friends and the spaces I keep and how much does it actually just have to do with my own perception of myself and how I feel about myself succeeding and failing at relationships, whatever? Which is troubling.

Carmen: Yeah. That’s why I originally started by being like it sends that part of me that’s type A into hyperdrive. A lot of my friends have had multiple partners and sometimes they’re dating multiple people at the same time, sometimes it’s a revolving door of partners. Everyone has their own special version of their dating life. And that’s great. But I think I cannot imagine the idea like it would for me feel like a failure to be like, “Oh, here’s this person I was dating. It did not work out.”

And again, I am not endorsing this as a positive. I know we’re like, “Oh, boundaries are Carmen’s brand.” Fun fact is I think often our strength is our weakness. So sure. I think it’s a strength that I can manage on some level to have a public persona — as much as, like, Autostraddle is a public persona — and keep things to myself. I also am almost a hundred percent positive it’s a weakness that I feel such a need to keep the things that are personal to me that walled off. But I do think that there is something about that type A feeling of being like, oh, if I introduce you publicly and then this doesn’t work out, then I have fallen on my face publicly. And that is so much harder for me to imagine.

Issa Rae of all people was once like, “Don’t let…” I mean, this is different because it’s Issa, but Issa was like, “I will never let a man be the reason that I embarrass myself.” Issa was like, “I can embarrass myself every day, I don’t need a man to do that.” Update some pronouns there, but I do think that very much so speaks to my mindset where there are so many ways, and so many days, that I mortify myself. I do not need to bring this in there, which again, ironic to be on a dating podcast talking about! But I do think like there is a sense of me that the idea of it freaks me out very much.

Drew: When you are starting to date someone new and have all of those excitable crush feelings, what do you do with them? Because I think I’m good at preventing friends from meeting someone until I’m ready, but the minute I match with someone on a dating app and I’m excited about them, I’m texting three friends to be like, “I just matched with the hottest person ever.”

Christina: Can confirm.

Drew: I have to share that part, right? So what do you do?

Carmen: Well, it’s funny you say that. Okay. So I’ll tell a story. So this past December? Yeah, it was December because my friends and I do an annual kind of a big family dinner right before Christmas that we call holigays. And we travel. We used to all live in New York together. So everybody kind of descends back onto the city and we get hotel rooms and we spend the weekend together, we eat a big fancy dinner. Kind of like a Christmas for your chosen family. And this year I happened to be kind of meeting up with someone who I had been long distance dating or talking to for a while.

We had a really great night and then the next day was dinner and I could not stop talking about this person. And that was very unusual for me. So my friends all took notice right away and they were like, “Who the hell’s this girl? What is happening?”

And we did not work out. And so that was kind of a recent thing where I was like, “And this is why I don’t introduce people.” But I do think that was so rare for me, and part of it was because I went from this one part that was so private right into this other space. And so I had no stop in between. Usually if I’m beginning to date someone, those are kind of feelings that I will enjoy by myself on the ride home in a car and kind of keep it private between me and that person. I don’t always feel that same urge to be like, “Oh, let me text.” But in this situation, because I was going from kind of one part where my heart was kind of wide open into another part where my heart was wide open, I found such blurriness! And I don’t know how people live like that, I am not built for that kind of vulnerability. I am just not. So I do think that would be an example of when I just absolutely couldn’t hold it, but most times, yeah, I don’t know. I crush a little and then I vibe out. I’m just like, okay, I can’t deal with that. That was fun. That’s for me and this person and my phone.

Christina: Yeah. I’m going to cosign that.

Drew: I have a question. So when this didn’t work out after you’d shared it with your friends and theoretically this fear came true, did it make you feel like, oh, this wasn’t so bad. My friends aren’t judging me. They might be a little disappointed for me, but they’re not like, “Oh wow. You’re a loser.” Or was it like…. Did it change at all your relationship to that?

Carmen: Man, this podcast is like therapy.

Christina: Thank you.

Carmen: No and yes. Okay. So the part that is true is, no, they did not care because they’re my friends and they love me. And they were like, “Oh, that sucks that you and this person didn’t work out and we’re sorry. And would you like a hug?” And then we all moved on. So in that way, sure, my fear did not come true. But internally it did, do you know what I mean? Internally I was like, oh, this is exactly what I never want to have to do. I internally do not want to have to have these conversations or like wrap up this part of my life.

Whereas I mean, a part of it is a little bit like Christina, I famously don’t get into very many deep relationships. And this person I dated for probably six-ish months. And so that is very different. For me that was long term. I was like, oh wow, look at me growing up over here. And they bled into other parts. I would start at work being like, “oh, I had a date last night, this person I was dating, this is a story that happened,” and it would come up in workplace conversations. And that was again, just really different for me. I don’t know that I loved it. To be honest with you.

Drew: Why?

Carmen: I mean, I am sure it was a more kind of evolved approach to dating and definitely more like how everyone else handles it. I am not convinced that I personally loved it, but I also don’t love vulnerability. So there is that.

Christina: I mean, I think about that with myself a lot, right? I love a boundary. I’m famously obsessed with a boundary. And I often have the sneaking suspicion that what I love about a boundary is that it creates some pretty safe ways for me not to have to be vulnerable almost ever if I do it right. If I’m doing it right, it creates some pretty good safeguards in place for me to be like, “Wow. Nope, I simply don’t have to do that. There’s no feeling that needs to be shared here. We can simply be moving on.” And I know Drew, that you love a boundary. But you also love a feeling and you’re good at being vulnerable. So you’re better at it than me. So kind of walk me through how you do what you do with that voodoo that you do.

Drew: I mean, I think I’m excellent at the sort of defense mechanism where I talk about things and I overshare so no one asks questions about the things I don’t want to be asked about. And people don’t clock that I’m not necessarily being vulnerable in certain ways or showing emotions in certain ways. So I don’t think I’m all knowing, but—

Christina: Well, I do.

Drew: Well, thank you. I mean, I think that I’m very specific about who I talk to about different things and I try to… And that’s something I’ve had to learn because I come from a, I don’t know if this is culturally specific, but it feels a little culturally specific that, I think at least in my Jewish family, there aren’t a lot of boundaries and it’s a lot of sharing and a lot of… It’s interesting to me because it’s not like… No one in my family is, I’m not someone who’s like, “Oh, my mom’s my best friend. My sister’s my best friend.” They’re my family members and I love them and we have family relationships. But there’s nothing really off limits and I think even when I was a kid, just the things that were talked about were pretty unboundaried for better or worse. And I think over time I had to learn that talking to my parents about my dating life — this was even before I transitioned and was gay dating — it wasn’t a helpful thing. And even if I felt the urge, especially if something went wrong, I was sad about something and my parents especially my mom was there and I could talk to her, being like hmm no I need to learn to set that boundary.

And similarly with friends being like… I know that I have friends who I can talk to about things and I won’t feel judged and I will probably be lightly roasted in ways that feel good, and those are the people who I choose to share things with. And sometimes it’s hard. If I’m seeing a different friend who I’m not as close with or I’m at a party and I feel the urge to entertain and be storyteller and there’s a story and then I’m like, “I want to tell this because it’s a…” And I’ve had to work on getting better boundaries as far as being like, “What does it feel like when you tell these individuals this thing? Does it feel good? Does it not feel good?” And sort of trial and error, figuring that out. And I do think writing helps with that because my writing is so personal and I would feel sometimes I’d write something and I’d be like, “This didn’t feel good.” Sometimes it’s vulnerable and scary, but it ultimately feels rewarding and sometimes it really doesn’t and I’ve had to sort of learn how to find that balance. And I think I’m still finding that. But I have a bit of a performer, people pleaser, something streak where I want to say the most interesting things. And oftentimes the most interesting things are the most private. And so I want to do that. And I’ve had to sort of—

Christina: Tamp down that urge?

Drew: Resist that impulse. Yeah.

Carmen: I do think though, you said something that is one of like my tricks too, is I find that if you fill space or if I fill space with something else where I am directing the conversation, then I get to choose what parts I am not talking about. And that is, I mean, one of my go-to tricks, is if you talk about everything you actually are talking about nothing, which is a go-to of mine a lot. And I do wonder though for me, because dating has always been something I kept really close to the chest, is that always really useful? There are ways, and I would be really curious Drew to ask you this, because you do write about dating and talk about dating a lot, where do you find the boundary between, okay, “this is something from the person I’m dating that I am willing to share” and “this is something with the person that I’m dating, that it does not fit on this? I can’t do this?”

I always find that curious because my answer is just to share nothing, right? I’m like, “Oh, I don’t ever have to make this decision. I don’t have to be selective about it. The door is closed.” Whereas for someone like you, you’re always self-selecting and how do you do that? Does that get exhausting? How do you figure out what parts of yourself to be messy and vulnerable either with your friendships or on a public platform and what parts of yourself and a relationship do you leave just for you and your partner?

Drew: The way I think about it is… Obviously I don’t rank my relationship. I’m not that much of a Capricorn. But my current romantic relationship is serious enough that there are things between us that I wouldn’t share with even my friends, because my relationship with my partner that’s the relationship. And just the same way I have relationships with my friends. And those are the relationship. Whereas if I have a hookup, not that I’m not seeing the hookup as a full person who has their own life and their own friends and will tell the story their own way, but that connection pales in comparison to my friendship. So I’m going to tell them. And honestly, a lot of, this is kind of sound really corny, but a lot of those hookups pale in comparison to my relationship with my writing. And so that’s also part of it, whereas—

Christina: Woo baby, that was gorgeous.

Carmen: The most Drew answer.

Drew: And so it’s sort of always a judgment on that. And I would say that the more serious… That sounds awful, because then it’s like if someone I wrote a detailed essay about is like, “Oh, so you didn’t care about me?” It’s not totally one to one, but I do think that I’m way more likely to write a detailed essay about a one night stand than I am about a relationship. And that’s something that being in a serious relationship now I’m really having to navigate and being like, she has her own boundaries. And it becomes a lot more, I mean, I care about the boundaries of anyone I interact with, but we’re going to sometimes betray other people’s boundaries in the sense that I know there are people who I’ve written about who wish that I hadn’t, we can have a whole conversation about the ethics of writing. And I think about that question a lot and I really try to be thoughtful about it, but I still, for some people, made the wrong decisions and sometimes I agree with them and sometimes I sort of stand by what I did.

But I care about my partner to an extent that I will respect her boundaries fully. And so there’s nothing that I would… If anything bothered her, I wouldn’t want to share it. And any mention of her, I run it by her, not because she’s even asked me to do that, but just because it’s not a relationship that I’m willing to sacrifice for my writing or for my desire to have a fun and flirty persona on the internet. So that’s just sort of on a scale of seriousness. And also what I would share in jokey round table on Autostraddle versus what I would share in a deep essay, again, how much I care about that writing changes. There are long form essays that I’ve written where I’ve crossed certain personal boundaries or shared things that feel really special to me with another person and I’m letting now, who knows how many readers into that. And I am making the choice that I care about that piece enough to do that and still being selective about details. That’s also something I’ve learned, is that you can also tell an evocative story without including all the details. And that’s been a real three and a half year long, maybe longer before Autostraddle, learning experience within my writing of being like, sharing everything is not the same as using a story fully.

Christina: Yeah. I remember even in some of the early conversations Drew that you and I had in our 20,000 voice memos a day moments wherein you were like, “But if I don’t share all the details, is this the truth? And then what does that mean?” Which I always find very fascinating, about the way that you approach both, like you’re sharing with details and writing right? Because it’s if it doesn’t have this truthiness, if I can borrow a word from Stephen Colbert, I guess, or whatever, that you’re kind of, “Well then is it a fraud? Am I doing fraudulent work? What is journalism?” It’s a very Carrie Bradshaw energy that sometimes happens to you. But I think in the last year, six months, whatever, you have really figured out that line for yourself, which I imagine is quite helpful.

Carmen: I think the idea of, “If I don’t tell all the details, is that the truth?” Is mind blowing to me because I can’t approach anything that way. I don’t share details about anything. Anytime I’m telling a story, I’ve already taken out probably 30% of it. And so it’s really fascinating to think about how different people just negotiate, even friendship boundaries, like you and Christina are sending voice memos to each other, right? That is not a writing relationship. That’s y’all hanging out. So how do we even negotiate those spaces? I just think is a really fascinating concept.

Christina: Yeah. And I was also just thinking about, obviously boundaries come up hugely with us in dating and how we share dating. But I feel a thing that comes up all the time is, whomst among my friends has boundaries and who doesn’t? And how that affects our relationships and kind of the relationships in our circle, the kind of ripples of that boundary to boundariless space affects every interaction we have with people. And sometimes pisses people off and sometimes is fine with other people. And I always just find it fascinating when I meet someone and I’m like, “Oh, you do not have good boundaries. Interesting. That seems really hard. That seems like a really challenging way to live, this boundariless land. How?”

Carmen: I think though, that is also… Okay, so just to be fully frank about something, I do think about a lot as it relates to boundaries, and I wasn’t sure if I was going to tell this on the podcast, but I am, is the first relationship that I was ever in that was really serious was in college and it was kind of purposefully a secret. We did not tell people, even our friends. And that was about a lot of internalized homophobia on behalf of both myself and the person I was dating. But I do think that though I don’t necessarily carry that same shame, it did shift how I thought about approaching relationships because so much of that first relationship did happen in secret.

And the kind of flip of that I think is, even with oversharers, we’re always processing the last relationship we were in. We’re always still kind of being shaped by those first things that happened to us or the second or third and however we reacted to whatever bad things occurred. And I often wonder if lack of boundaries is just the flip side of that same coin. I am overly cautious. And also the first person I dated was 100% in secret. But I do think that I know for me that shifted so many things and those are a lot of habits that I’m still unlearning. I don’t know. We don’t need to tell everyone listening how long ago I was in college, but quite a few years later. I just always wonder if for oversharers, if that’s also a thing too. Do you know what I mean? Even for friends. I have friends who will tell me, I mean, absolutely every detail about every hookup down to sex things I never want to know about them. You know what I mean? And then they’ll be like, “Oh, pass the bacon.” And I’m like, “You just told me about where someone’s fist was last night. I don’t really feel just passing over bacon.” I also wonder for them, if that is also their own processing, do you know what I mean? In the same way that I’m deeply internal.

Drew: Yeah. I mean, I can even say that for me, by nature of transness, I’ve had experiences where I’ve felt sort of kept secret, even just subtly, and I think that’s resulted in me wanting people to know about stuff and feeling sort of very tender around stuff. And that’s something that I’ve had to work on to be like, oh, it’s… having stuff you and your partner are deciding is private, isn’t the same as someone keeping you a secret because of their own shame or their own transphobia or their own whatever. But it definitely has impacted me and how I approach information.

And I think even in a lot of my sex writing, there was, I mean, I think I’ve even written about this in a sort of meta way, that there was this desire to give an impression of I’m not like those sad trans women you have stereotypes about, I’m one of the cool ones who’s off having random, crazy sex every week. And it wasn’t accurate, I was trying to manifest this lifestyle, to fight back against people’s assumptions about me and in the process was losing track of who I actually am, which is both someone who does sometimes have wild sexcapades and also a lot of times just has very strong crushes and stays home and watches movies thinking about them. I’m just lots of different things at once. And we lose our nuances and our humanity when we’re trying to prove things one way or the other, whether it’s by keeping it all internal and learning those lessons or making it all external to try to prove something.

Carmen: Wow.

Christina: That was a damn word, I have to say. I wish I had a glass of wine. I would raise one to you right here right now.

Drew: Thank you.

Christina: That was really…

Carmen: I have a strawberry mojito in a mug.

Christina: Ooh! In a mug!

Drew: Oh, yum.

Christina: Love that.

Carmen: In my good luck Beyoncé mug. Because I told y’all, I was nervous.

Drew: For you and Christina… While I figure out my own boundaries… There’s nothing my close friends… obviously I don’t want people who I barely know to be volunteering, which happens because I write about sex, people who are literal strangers will be like, “Let me talk about fluids with you.” And I’m like, “Okay, let’s calm down.” But with my close friends, I want to hear every juicy detail.

Christina: Oh absolutely. Same.

Carmen: I don’t really, I mean, I think I’ve never gotten a choice on it. So I can’t say whether or not I prefer it. You know what I mean? I do think a part of being gay and having gay friendships, unless you are very specifically someone like me who processes very deeply internally and that does feel like kind of a unicorn — which is already a loaded phrase in gay community — but that does feel kind of like a unicorn. I do think generally people are like, “Let me tell you every flip every turn. Let me tell you where hands were, the color shape and size of the dildo. I want to share everything.” So yeah. I mean, I love it. I just never want to do it. I love hearing it. I don’t know. I don’t think I’ve ever gotten a choice. I don’t think anyone who’s ever been like, “Carmen, do you not want to hear this?” Before they started the story.

Christina: Carmen, do you consent to this story?

Carmen: Right. That’s never existed in any of my friendships.

Christina: Yeah. I think, as a similarly internal processor, once I have processed whatever I feel like I need to process about a hookup or whatever, I’m like, “Yeah, let’s talk about it. Let us discuss. This is what went down. This was weird, but I was into it? Tough to say.” I’m happy to have those conversations once I’ve taken the time to myself to find God, think about it, have a little moment of righteous prayer as I do, a very holy woman as I’m sure everyone knows. But yeah. And then that’s whatever, let’s talk about sex baby. Let’s actually do it.

Talking about sex is fun and sex is fun I think? it’s been a minute so.

Carmen: It is last time I checked.

I mean, I think for me too, and that goes back to I was so fascinated when Drew was like, “Well, if I don’t tell every detail, is it the truth?” I mean I love talking about sex in the abstract. I would prefer to never tell details about who I was doing the sex with. Do you know what I mean? That for me is usually where I would draw that boundary. I’m like, oh sure, we can talk about generally speaking sex I had or a hookup or even someone I dated for a couple weeks or a month or whatever. But I don’t usually like to get into details about a person. That is usually where my — haha theme of the episode — boundary comes into.

Drew: I was just thinking about how like the one time the past six months that Christina told me that she might have a crush on someone, I became so annoying about it and still am annoying about it. And I’m reflecting on this as I’m saying this, because I’m wondering if, for both of you because you don’t often talk about dating or at least not in detail, do you find having that boundary makes that boundary harder to lessen because of the reaction of people when you do bring up sex or dating or you are seeing someone or, oh my God, you even introduce someone to someone, because this doesn’t happen very often, all of a sudden your friends won’t let it go and so it makes you even more reluctant to do it?

Carmen: 100%. I mean the person who I was dating and I’m no longer dating, but who I opened up the episode talking about and I was at this kind of makeshift Christmas dinner with my friends and telling them about this person, one of my friends who was getting married was like, you can absolutely bring this person to the wedding. And I was like, “Whoa, buddy.” And for this friend, they were like, “Listen, you have never really talked about anyone you were seeing, you cannot stop talking about this person. You can bring this person to a whole wedding.” And I was like, “Maybe we don’t do that.” And I think that is very typical of what happens, right? When you finally share something. I think my Autostraddle friends are probably the only ones where that’s not true where I can say something and people just let it chill. But in my non-Autostraddle world, the minute you drop a detail, then everybody wants to know all of the details, right? Which I think, yeah, it keeps those boundaries up very firmly.

It’s part of why I started joking I won’t bring someone around till I’m going to marry them because I’m kind of a little sister in a crew of five or six. And I was like I cannot deal with that many quote unquote siblings, getting… I’m also an only child. This is just a lot for me to have all these people in my business. And for me, it is never really about the person I’m dating, but it is about all of my friends and having to manage and deal with all of their reactions or their questions or… Jesus even talking about it, my heart is starting to race. I do not. I don’t want it. I don’t want it at all.

Christina: I’m somewhere in between. Yes, I do absolutely have friends who I’m like, “Oh my God, you’re going to be a dog with a bone about this. I cannot drop this info in front of you.” But at the same time, I am also self aware enough to know that I do need a little bit of that energy in my life to kind of pull me out of some of these walls and tear boundaries. And I do think the people like Drew, all of my closest friends, who know me well enough to know when we have to push on that little button a little bit and when it’s time to back off of that, it’s a very delicate dance. I’m not jealous of anybody who has to fucking work with my annoying ass on that kind of shit. But there are, I would say for the most part, my closest friends know, when is it time to lightly roast Christina about this and when is it time to just leave her the hell alone and she’ll figure it out and come to us when the time is needed. But yeah, no, it can be just like, “Oh God, why did I say it out loud for the love of Christ? Why did I do that?”

Drew: I will say on the record that if I ever don’t walk that line correctly, you can always set a boundary and I will follow that boundary.

Christina: Well, and that’s the other thing, right? All of my good friends will if I’m like, “All right, enough.” They will say, “Okay.”

Carmen: Too much.

Drew: Yeah.

Christina: I think maybe we’ve nailed it.

Drew: I think we’ve covered a lot of boundaries. So I feel like I learned some things today.

Christina: I feel like I learned some more ways in which I am struggling. So, that’s always fun.

Carmen: Yeah. I don’t know if I learned today as much as I was like, “Wow, this is exposure. Okay, great.”

Christina: Reinforcing some things that I should jot down for future therapy use as ever. But that usually is what makes an episode of this podcast. It’s me saying that at some point.

Drew: That is true. Let’s move on to our next segment, which is crush corner.

Christina: Drew, I think it’s your turn to go first, because I went first last time.

Drew: My crush of the week is Sarita Choudhury.

Christina: Perfect.

Drew: I saw the new restoration of Mississippi Masala at the TIFF theater, because I’m in Toronto for the summer. And I’d seen the movie before, on a bootleg, like illegal, I mean, not illegal. I would never do anything illegal, a bootleg copy on my computer. It was still incredible. Even in that setting was incredible. But the new restoration seen in theaters, it’s such an incredible movie. And I don’t know if any two people have ever looked better than Sarita Choudhury and Denzel Washington in that movie. And also, still in the new Sex In The City, she’s by far the best part of that show. And I wish the second season would be like, “So bringing back Sex and the City didn’t really work out for us, but we are going to do a spinoff now with the one character that’s really working.” I would love to watch that show. So she’s hot, she’s talented. What else do you need for a crush of the week?

Christina: I honestly don’t think anything else. I think that’s really gorgeous. And I do think about that moment where she’s just smoking a cigarette in And Just Like That and someone says, “You’re just sitting here smoking a cigarette and doing nothing.” Because that truly was me from about 2009 to about 2019, simply sitting there smoking a cigarette and not doing shit else.

Carmen: My favorite is the, “I’m going to be the rich brown woman who writes the check.” Is for me the iconic Sex and the City Moment. I just wish the whole show had just been that.

Christina: That’s a wife. Like please.

Carmen: That’s a whole wife, that’s what that is.

Christina: A whole wife. My crush of the week, I’ve been watching what doctors have been calling too much Law & Order, and I do mean classic Law & Order, I do mean seasons six through 11. So I’m talking ’96 through 2000. And my crush of the week is Lennie Brisco, AKA Jerry Orbach. I have never known a better man slash detective in my life. Obviously Law & Order is copaganda. We don’t care for it. It’s actually quite troubling when you think about it for even half of a second. But the way this man has quips upon finding dead bodies is just an energy that I wish that I had. He told a perp one time, “Home Alone’s, a movie. It’s not an alibi.” And that’s incredible. He’s just a perfect man. And I wish he wasn’t dead, but he is, and that’s sad. But I love Jerry Orbach slash Lennie Brisco who are tied together in my brain.

Drew: Wow. You lost me at Law & Order, but then when you said Jerry Orbach, you almost got me back by surprising me so much with that one.

Christina: I just love him. He’s just perfect.

Carmen: I always remember when he passed and they took the lights out on Broadway for him. It’s just such a sweet memory that I will choose to leave us with as opposed to Law & Order. It’s just so rare when they take the lights out on Broadway.

Christina: There’s no way they will do that when I die, but I wish that they would.

Carmen: Right. That’s actually what I aspire to be. I aspire to be someone for whom when I die, all the lights… you know like the lights went out in Georgia? All the lights brought on Broadway. That is my point.

Christina: Quite literally.

Carmen: That’s a Designing Women reference, for anyone who hasn’t reached that part of their gay canon.

Christina: I was really thrilled with that. Who is your crush of the week, dear Carmen?

Carmen: I wrote down a list because it was the only thing Drew told me to prepare. And as was kind of, I think the sub-theme of this episode, I am a bit of a type A, I do like to be perfect at things. And so Drew gave one assignment and I wrote an entire list.

Drew: Incredible.

Carmen: Thank you. To be honest, the list was originally only two people. The first being Raja from RuPaul’s Drag Race: All Stars, which I did not have a crush on Raja when they were first competing way back in RuPaul’s Drag Race the dinosaur years. And I was just very unprepared for how attractive Raja was going to be as they approached 50. Just talented and so funny and eloquent and has the most beautiful silver hair, just a full mommi. I’m obsessed. And then the second person I wrote down is a crush I’ve been ashamed about, well, not shame. That’s a big word. But been embarrassed to share, which is Raven Symoné. I was also speaking of people who were in your life once before, and then they come back. No one told me Raven Symoné became hottie, no one told me. And she showed up on A Black Lady Sketch Show recently, and then that sent me down a path of her TikTok. And being married has been so good to Raven. I just want to say, a whole endorsement for marriage would be Raven Symoné’s life right now. I mean, just a babe, a whole babe.

Christina: Yeah. She has a fun TikTok and it’s very chaotic. I’m like what’s going on?

Carmen: It’s so good.

Christina: I’m like, “What’s happening.”

Carmen: I did not see “becoming a Raven Symoné fan” in my list for my thirties. But here I am ready to go back like it’s That’s So Raven all over again. Who knew? Who knew Christina? Not I.

Christina: We can’t predict these things and that’s what makes life so beautiful and gorgeous in many ways.

Carmen: I think my biggest dream is to get Raven Symoné off the Disney channel now, because she still has her soul sold to Mickey Mouse. And I was like, “I want to see you in an adult comedy. I want to see you in something that I can appreciate.”

Christina: Yes. Wholeheartedly agree.

Carmen: Right.

Drew: Carmen, do you want to tell people where they can find you and your work?

Carmen: Sure.

Drew: If you want them to.

Christina: Unless it’s a boundary.

Carmen: It is not a boundary. You can find my work on autostraddle.com where I give my blood, sweat, and tears every day. And also on Twitter and Instagram, they’re both carmencitaloves which in English would be carmencitaloves if you need that. And that’s it. I think those are all the places where one might find my work. The end.

Drew: Thank you. Thank you for coming on here.

Carmen: I had the best time. This was great.

Drew: You did so good. Thank you so much for listening to Wait, Is This A Date. You can find us on Twitter and Instagram @waitisthisadate and you can email us at waitisthisadate@gmail.com.

Christina: Our theme was written by Lauren Klein, our logo is by Maanya Dhar, and this podcast was produced, edited and mixed by Lauren Klein.

Drew: You can find me on Twitter, Instagram and TikTok @draw_gregory.

Christina: You can find me on Twitter @c_gracet and on Instagram @christina_gracet. And you can find Autostraddle of course @autostraddle.

Drew: And you can find Autostraddle at autostraddle.com, the reason we’re all here today. Thank you so much and see you next week. Christina, what is the difference between a date and a podcast?

Christina: Oh, actually that’s really interesting that you asked that because scientists are at this very moment horridly trying to figure this out. We have some of our best scholars on this. On the case here, we don’t have an answer, but I think every day we journey closer to understanding.

Drew: I wish them and us the greatest luck.

Drew (voice memo): I have a theory that the people who use the word boundaries the most are some of the people with the worst boundaries. I don’t know if that’s always true, but it feels true, doesn’t it?

“Wait, Is This a Date?” Podcast Episode 201: Mommi Culture

The year: 2017. The day: the beginning of Pride Month. Big Little Lies and The Good Fight had recently released their first seasons. Rihanna had an album out the previous year. Images from Carol still danced across our feeds with a swooning urgency. The air was hot with the sparkle of new life. June 1, 2017: Mommi was born.

Former Autostraddle writer Erin Sullivan and current Autostraddle managing editor Kayla Kumari Upadhyaya co-wrote an article titled, “Mommi Is the New Daddy” and our lives were never the same.

I had only come out a couple months prior so it’s safe to say I’ve never really known a gay world without mommi. And why would I want to? Whether you are a mommi, like to date mommis, or are just an admirer from afar, we all have reasons to appreciate this gay archetype named a mere five years ago.

But amid all this mommi madness, I started to think of the actual moms. Some moms are mommis, but, of course, not all. And while we love to discuss mommis, moms — like people with actual children — are sometimes left out of the gay dating convo. And that’s why we’re so excited that for our season two premiere we have Autostraddle’s director of operations — and real-life mom — Laneia Jones to talk to Christina and I about all things dating as a mom. And before that great convo, we have mommi co-creator Kayla on to play a little mommi game!

SHOW NOTES

+ I am once again sharing the seminal mommi piece.

+ “All Star” is about climate change and my mind is blown. “It’s a cool place and they say it gets colder. You’re bundled up now, wait ‘til you get older. But the meteor men beg to differ judging by the whole in the satellite picture. The ice we skate is getting pretty thin. The water’s getting warm so we might as well swim. My world’s on fire, how ‘bout yours?” I mean, just read for yourself.

+ If you want more on my decision not to have kids and my feelings about it, check out this essay I wrote about the movie Good Manners as part of my series, aptly titled, “Monsters and Mommis.”

+ Read Laneia’s interview with her girlfriend Amanda!!

+ Read my Tahara review and then go see it as soon as you can.

+ Kristen Stewart really is starting a ghost hunting show.

Laneia: And that did feel awkward. And that did feel like it was putting me in a specific type of dating. Not very hookup, not that sexy to date, for brunch only.

Christina: You’re saying Wednesday brunch isn’t the hottest time to get a date? Good to know.

Laneia: It is not. I would not recommend it.

[theme song plays]

Drew: Hi, I’m Drew.

Christina: And I’m Christina.

Drew: And welcome to Wait, Is This A Date?

Christina: (singing) Season two, baby.

Drew: This is when you say what Wait, Is This a Date is? Traditionally.

Christina: Okay. But what if I chose to give it like a sparkly new vocal? Like what about that?

Drew: I support that.

Christina: Wait, Is This A Date? Is an Autostraddle podcast dedicated to dating and sex, and all things fun. And of course, the perennial question, wait, is this a date?

Drew: Correct.

Christina: Whoo. Got it.

Drew: And I guess now we say— God, it’s been a long time.

Christina: It’s been a minute.

Drew: It’s been like six months since our special episode. And like almost a year since our regular episodes.

Christina: It’s been truly a long time since we have rocked. And some might even say rolled.

Drew: Yeah, we’re on like a TV schedule, but like an HBO or like something prestigious.

Christina: Yeah. Excuse me. I’m getting like big channel dollars. I’m no network. I’m not getting like network money. This is not an NBC Production. Thank you very much.

Drew: I do remember that we say who we are. And since this is a new season, maybe we have new people coming who don’t know. So, I’m Drew Gregory, I’m a writer and a filmmaker. I write for Autostraddle where I do like film and TV criticism, personal essays, dating stuff. I’m trans. I’m queer. I’m a trans woman. Should I say that? Should I clarify that? And I like— I don’t know why I was about to say that I like the idea of someone thinking that I was like transmasculine, but that’s something I’ve been unpacking for several years now.

Christina: I also like the idea of you asking me for permission about like, how you should identify yourself as if I’m going to come down with the correct ruling like, baby, live your life. Who am I to say?

Drew: I think where I’m at is queer trans woman and labels are what they are. What about you?

Christina: That’s really gorgeous. I’m Christina Tucker. I’m also a writer at Autostraddle, and at the internet at large, a podcaster. Yeah. Some sort of like queer Black woman who just kind of like vibes, will accept all labels of any kind of gay sexuality. But I’m also like very bored by the labels’ conversation, perhaps because it is, I am over 24, and it does not feel important to me anymore, who can say? I’m gay, like let’s vibe, let’s fucking party. Wow…

Drew: I love that.

Christina: Simply the greatest intro to myself I’ve ever given.

Drew: Should we party? Should we get into it?

Christina: Let’s party.

Drew: Great.

Christina: How are we defining party in this moment?

Drew:Well, how we’re defining party in this moment is that our first episode of the season is all about Mommi Culture. So, we have a very special guest that we will introduce later for our main conversation, but we also have another very special guest. Yeah, that’s right. Premiere episode. Two, very special guests. We have a returning guest to play a little game with us.

Kayla: Hi, everyone. I’m Kayla Kumari Upadhyaya. I am the managing editor of Autostraddle, which I think is new, since the last time I was here. Last time I came to you as a writer, and now I’m a full-time editor here. Growth.

Christina: We love Kayla.

Drew: Also, I do think of you as like something of an expert of like Mommi with an i culture.

Christina: Absolutely.

Drew: And so, I’m wondering, what does that mean to you?

Kayla: Well, I was the co-founder of mommi at autostraddle.com. It was Erin Sullivan and I coined the term originally for the website in maybe 2015, I want to say. And we wrote a piece together called, “Mommi Is the New Daddy”. And honestly started a cultural revolution.

Christina: Yeah. My life’s never been the same. I’ll say that.

Kayla: The reputation certainly precedes us. I mean, most people don’t even know that I wrote that term for Autostraddle. So, your children outgrow you, and they have their life of their own. Like, that is how I view Mommi now, because also honestly, sometimes people will tag me into conversations about Mommi. And I’m like, “I don’t actually know what you’re talking about.” I feel like maybe I’m not an expert anymore, because it has grown and expanded so much. But yeah, I don’t know. It’s still part of my identity. Talking about labels earlier. Yeah. I’m not a Mommi myself, but an appreciator of.

Christina: Yes. Yes.

Drew: I mean, by all means, I would never want to put anything on you, but I feel like you’re approaching, like you definitely are getting into a new level where you’re close. Like, now you’re in your 30s, I think like 35, maybe you could get there.

Kayla: Yeah. You’re not wrong. And I’ve always kind of skirted the line between the things that I like and the things that I want to become, a deeply queer thing. But yeah, that has definitely always been a part of my identity crisis journey. And I think you’re correct. I think something about living in Miami in particular has brought that Momminess to the surface.

Christina: I was really going to say, I think in the year that we have been much closer, I have just seen such a gorgeous growth of Mommi energy. Truly the condo has a very incredible Mommi energy that simply the amount of coffee you can make at that home really is incredibly Mommi Culture.

Kayla: Truly any style. Yeah. All the ways, we have every coffee machine that you can imagine.

Christina: Yes. Yes.

Drew: Should we jump into this game, Christina? Do you want to describe it and name it—

Christina: Whoo-hoo.

Drew: —off the top of your head?

Christina: Simply no way I’m going to be able to name it off the top of my head. Absolutely not one of my strengths, but Drew and I were banding around just like the idea of things that can be quantified as Mommi, despite them perhaps having no real connection to Mommi Culture. So, we just figured it would be just like a fun, silly time of us saying things. And let’s be honest, being a little bit charmed by our own cleverness with regard to a bunch of things that are similar, but very different. And then, Kayla will choose, which is the most Mommi of the options that are given to her.

Drew: Yeah. You need to justify it.

Kayla: Okay.

Christina: Yes.

Drew: Should I start us off?

Christina: Start us off.

Drew: Okay. So, the first one is eagles, the bird, Philadelphia Eagles, the football team, and The Eagles, the band.

Kayla: I’m going to go eagles, the bird. They have a very specific haircut, a very specific look. They like to keep it consistent too. I feel like there’s something very Mommi about like, I’m going to have the same hairdo every day. Yeah.

Drew: I love that.

Christina: I will accept that. I also think, yeah, eagles have the haircut of like what my friends and I call the accidental mom butch, where you’re like, “I think that’s just a straight mom, but she’s accidentally cut her hair in the way that she looks like a butch lesbian, like what’s happening here.” And that is very an eagle look, I accept this answer. All right. For you, I have King Triton, Kings of Leon, and “King” by Florence and the Machine.

Kayla: I’m going to go King Triton, because I do feel like he is—

Christina: I’m loving this.

Kayla: I hope I’m only picking unexpected answers. I do think King Triton is like often trying to upstage his own daughter in terms of drama, in terms of look. And it’s like, there’s nothing more Mommi than that than somebody who’s like, “No, it’s me. It’s not my daughter’s day or my daughter’s time.” Like, “Sure. The movie’s named after her or whatever, but I’m here. I have my little outfit.”

Christina: I love calling his tail and shirtlessness an outfit.

Kayla: Yeah. He’s definitely topless.

Christina: He’s quite literally just in his body.

Drew: Look, nipples are the best accessories, so…

Kayla: There we go.

Drew: Okay. Next one. The Wild West, Wild Wild Country, the limited series, and Olivia Wilde.

Kayla: Oh, I feel like I’m being baited into saying Olivia Wilde, and I’m not going to go Olivia Wilde. I think I’m going to go The Wild Wild West, which you just mean as like a concept, right?

Drew: Yeah, yeah.

Kayla: I think it’s not a specific…

Christina: Well, Drew would’ve given you the year that movie came out.

Drew: That’s true.

Kayla: Yeah. I will say the first thing I thought of when I heard Wild Wild West is the seminal Mary-Kate and Ashley movie film, How the West Was Fun. Not necessarily a Mommi film, but definitely Mary-Kate and Ashley Olsen today, veering into Mommi Culture, for sure. And I don’t know, there’s an unpredictability there. It is wild, Wild Wild West. I just mostly don’t think Olivia Wilde is very Mommi at all, so…

Drew: Yeah. I mean, that was the point of the game is that the things aren’t necessarily.

Kayla: Yeah. There’s a real lack of Mommi there.

Drew: Great.

Christina: Yeah. I love you finding the Mommi in these things that are just simply unwell.

Drew: I will say her like current age gap relationship with Harry Styles feels like the most Mommi thing she’s done yet, but that’s my answer, and that’s not your answer. And you’re the person playing this game. So, Christina?

Christina: All right. We have RuPaul’s Drag Race All Stars’ all winners, Smash Mouth’s “All Star,” and Cap’n Crunch’s OOPS! All Berries.

Kayla: I’m going to go Smash Mouth’s “All Star,” which I performed at karaoke for the first time ever a matter of weeks ago.

Christina: Wow. Can’t believe I missed that inaugural performance. What a bummer.

Kayla: It was in my own home, because I do have an at-home karaoke machine. Yes, the more I’m talking, the more I am becoming Mommi, but…

Christina: Okay, good. I was going to say it, if you didn’t, babe.

Kayla: Because I was like, I don’t want to wait in a line, wait in the queue to do karaoke. I want to do it in my own home. Go as many times as I want, try out new things. And one of those things was “All Star,” and I did not know that that song was about climate change.

Christina: What?

Kayla: I had never noticed. It’s very obvious actually. I just hadn’t sang it since I was a child. But when I was singing out loud, I had a realization mid singing. I was like, “Is this about climate change?” I said it out loud to my girlfriend. And she was like, “Oh, my God.” But that type of realization, that kind of like rocked my world is on the same level as when I created the term Mommi. It was like life changing. Yeah. I can never go back to before.

Christina: I mean, as they said, “It is a cool place, and they say it gets colder.” So, that’s—

Drew: Whoa.

Christina: —really something to think about up there.

Drew: Wow. My mind is blown.

Christina: Gorgeous answer.

Kayla: Go read the lyrics, go read the lyrics after this because it’s like all of them.

Christina: Treat yourself.

Drew: I will. Okay. Monster trucks, the concepts or the thing, Monster Energy drink, and Monster, the film from 2003 with Charlize Theron and Christina Ricci.

Kayla: Oh, yeah. I got to go Monster, the film. This feels like the easiest one. And it’s one where I’m like, “No, I can’t even avoid it, because it’s the obvious one.” Like, “I have to pick it. That’s the one.”

Drew: So, yeah, like murder Mommi, I guess. Aileen Wuornos is Mommi Culture.

Kayla: Yeah, obviously.

Drew: You said it here on the podcast.

Kayla: Actually. Yeah. Erin Sullivan would agree, honestly. Yeah. Mommi stay up for approval right there. Mommis can murder too.

Drew: Great.

Christina: Yeah. I mean, listen, it’s a whole genre of film. I’ve seen White Oleander. Come on now. All right. For my final, You’ve Got Mail, the film, You Got Served, the other film, and “You’ve Got The Love” by Candi Staton.

Kayla: This is the hardest one, because none of these things are pinging as Mommi, for me personally.

Christina: We came to test you.

Kayla: Yeah. Yeah. Finishing with a real stumper, because that is like You’ve Got Mail is probably like the least Mommi of those rom-coms.

Christina: Mm-hmm.

Kayla: Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Like three-way tie, nothing’s Mommi. I don’t know.

Christina: I love it.

Kayla: Is it a cop out?

Christina: No, it’s not a cop out. You’ve argued strongly for every other one. And if you have one where you say a three-way tie, I can fully support you.

Kayla: Yeah. There’s a lack of Mommi there. And honestly, some of why I feel like when I get brought into Mommi conversations. And I’m like, “I don’t know what you’re talking about,” is because sometimes Mommi gets thrown around a little too much.

Christina: Mm-hmm. Say that, girl. Say that.

Kayla: It’s like, sure, Mommi is a spectrum, but not everything can be Mommi.

Christina: Not everything can fit on a spectrum.

Drew: Not everything is King Triton.

Kayla: Not everything. That one felt obvious to me.

Christina: I simply love your mind. And I think it’s so gorgeous that we’re opening this second season with this like unbridled, Gemini chaos. I think it’s so lovely of us.

Drew: Well, thank you so much for coming back to play this game with us, and for reminding everyone where the term Mommi comes from.

Kayla: Yeah, no problem. Thanks for having me.

Drew: Do you want to say where people can find you?

Kayla: I am Kayla Kumari — that’s K-U-M-A-R-I — on everything, every single… If there’s a social media that exists, I’m on there and that is my name on it. And then also just on autostraddle.com, where I write about everything from tinned fish to like my life. I don’t know.

Christina: Yeah, those are the big two really. Always a delight. Now, go do something incredibly Mommi like throw on, I don’t know, light a candle and put on an album.

Kayla: I was wearing macramé earlier. So, just—

Christina: Well, and there she is, folks.

Kayla: And with that.

Christina: (singing) And now, it’s time for part two. Why am I so vocal today? What is going on with me?

Drew: I love it. I want you to sing this entire season.

Christina: Very surprising.

Drew: We should have a special musical episode where we have to sing the entire time.

Christina: See, I give you an inch. You run a mile. You run a ding dang mile.

Drew: Well, we are going from a one air sign to another, from a Mommi Culture to an actual mom. Would our guest like to introduce herself?

Laneia: Yeah. Hi, I’m Laneia Jones. I am the director of operations at Autostraddle where I’ve been for, I think somewhere around the past 78 years of my life.

Christina: Yeah. That math checks out.

Laneia: Yeah. Mm-hmm. I am qualified to have this discussion, I believe because I have two children of my very own, and I think that’s about it. I’m a lesbian.

Christina: Great. Love that.

Laneia: I’m 41. That’s probably important to this as well. Yeah.

Christina: I love all of this. Thank you so much for joining us to really drill down into that delineation between like someone can be a mom, but not necessarily have a Mommi feeling, like that is part of their identity, or culture, or even really care to understand it. And I think we’re going to have a fun little chitchat here today, I hope.

Laneia: Thank you for having me.

Drew: What is your relationship to like Mommi Culture in queer community?

Laneia: Honestly, I think when the term was coined, I felt like I was at least close or orbiting that definition. Honestly, there’s something about Mommi that I feel is like in a specific age range, and it’s like I’m between the young version of it, and the older version of it right now. And I’m in this weird in between place where it’s like, I’m not sure I’m there. I think I’m like on the outskirts at this time.

Christina: Skirting Mommi. Wow. That’s an erotica book.

Laneia: I think it’s the hair, to be honest. I think it’s the haircut right now is doing a lot to get me out of it.

Christina: Interesting.

Drew: Interesting.

Christina: Interesting.

Drew: I mean, I’d also just love to talk about like dating as a mom, because that’s something that I don’t have any experience with and Christina doesn’t. And that I assume has a lot of specifics. And a lot of specifics that a lot of people can relate to. I feel like I’ve met a lot of people in queer community who have kids, who will bring up like specifics of dating while a mom. So, I definitely like want to sort of dive into that. So, in queer community, when you’ve dated, do people ever have an issue that you have kids or has that been something that gets, that comes up?

Laneia: Not that like I have been made aware of. God, let’s see. I’ve been doing this for a bit, I guess. So, I started off on OkCupid.

Christina: Ah, I see.

Laneia: And did make it very clear there that I had children in an effort to like, if someone’s not interested in that, they don’t need to bother me.

Drew: Right.

Laneia: And since that was… again, like around 50 years ago, I was at that time, my children were younger. And so, if I were going to be entering a long-term relationship, like I think at that time I was looking for a co-parent to build a family around that. And I tried that. That is over. That experiment has ended, and it has ended at a time when the kids that I have are essentially not actually kids anymore. My oldest is 23, and my youngest is 17, because I got started very young. I was like, “Let’s get this out of the way.” And so, now, it’s like, I’m not looking for a co-parent, and I think that has made this third now round of dating as a mom a little bit more chill and I don’t need a babysitter. I don’t really have to worry as much now that they’re older. So, that has been nice. But I haven’t really encountered that. I was worried in the beginning that people would have a problem with it. And then, it actually turned out that the people, that reached out, the people I did go on dates with, were into it. I think to them it sort of was like, “Oh, great.” Like an instant family. Like, we’ll just add water and this is fine, which it is not that easy obviously. It is a whole different thing. But yeah, I think some people appreciated it.

Christina: Yeah. I think that’s interesting that delineation between like, when my kids are young, I’m going to have to think about like what involving a co-parent into their life means. And now, that they’re a little older being like, I get to kind of have a little bit more flexibility when I want to disclose this. Like, do you have a moment where you’re like, “Oh, I’m going to start upfront with everybody about that I have kids,” or like are you getting to know somebody and then, you’re like, “And by the way, I have kids,” or you’re on a date, maybe. Maybe it gets like you’re in person and then, it’s like the moment where you’re like, “Oh, I have two kids.” Or Is it just based on vibes, like the person’s vibe?

Laneia: Yeah. It’s very vibe based.

Christina: Mm-hmm. As much as dating is very vibe based.

Laneia: Yeah. This last round again was like, I wasn’t looking for a relationship at all. So, the whole thing was like, they didn’t need to know. I didn’t need to disclose that I had children in order to just go on some dates, have some sex, have some drinks. Like, there was no reason to talk about that. And so, I didn’t bring it up, and my kids aren’t like on my social media. Well, I talk about them, but they’re not like on Instagram with me. And the person that I’m dating now, like the very first date, she was like, “You have four photos on Instagram, what’s going on?” And I was like, “Well, nothing. What are you talking about?” And then, just really quickly had to disclose pretty much everything, which was fine. But I am the first parent that she has seriously dated. So, that has been interesting.

Christina: I also just love the idea of like, we are all so on socials, and you see someone socials who do not necessarily reflect a life that you think that they would be living. And you’re like, “All right, what’s your deal? What are you hiding? What’s going on? What’s skeletons are in that closet? What’s going on here?”

Laneia: That was exactly it. Yeah.

Drew: As it’s changed over the years of looking for a co-parent versus not has the timeline in which you would bring the person you’re dating into your kids’ lives also changed?

Laneia: Yeah. It did this time. I felt no real push to do that this time for a while. I think it had to happen eventually, because she was coming over during the daytime. But it wasn’t like, “Okay, I hope you like this person, and I hope this goes well.” I pretty much was like, “This is who I’m dating.” Like, meet this person, you meet this person. And they hang out on the couch and watch TV sometimes. But no one’s needing to impart any sort of life lesson, or punishments, or help with homework, or anything like that. So it was just like, if they don’t like each other, that’s probably going to be fine. Or like that’s how I thought about it in the beginning was like, “Nah, I don’t care. Not really.”

Christina: I love that. It’ll be a different kind of challenge, but like we’ll get over it.

Laneia: Yeah. We’ll get over it. Yeah.

Drew: Do you feel like it’s a lot. I mean, maybe you don’t have any knowledge of this, but do you presume that among people, dating as a mom is a lot different than for straight people? Is there stuff that comes up that feels very unique to being queer?

Laneia: I would assume that it is extremely different, just because a lot of things are extremely different about that.

Drew: Sure.

Laneia: I think if you’re a queer person, chances are at least that you haven’t really, like in your own mind, socialized yourself to believe that at some point eventually you will probably be a parent. I think it’s just out there as an option, unless obviously that is your whole thing. And which in case that’s totally fine. But most of the time, I think it’s sort of like if it happens, it happens or it’ll happen like 10 years from now. So, I think there’s not an inherent, like feeling of immediate responsibility or immediate like, “Oh, God, they’re going to want me to step in, and do this, and do that.” I feel like that would be a heavy weight in straight dating, because I think it would be presumed that you would date, get married. Like, there’s a timeline. And then, for queer people, there’s really not. There’s just like a field, and you just roam around in that field. Yeah.

Christina: Yeah. I feel like my gut is like… and again, having famously no kids and simply not being straight, I feel very comfortable pontificating on this, about straight people and their marriages. But it does kind of feel like if you are straight and you are married and you want kids, like that’s your end goal. And to be a person coming into a relationship that already has kids, I feel like I have certainly experienced straight women who feel like, “Well, then, what does that mean for me if this guy I’m dating already has kids? Like, “Where does that put me and my eventual future children?” “Do we not? Does he not want to have more kids? How do I feel about these kids versus like biological kids that I would have?” That just seems complicated and hard.

Laneia: Yeah. That seems fraught.

Christina: And deeply fraught.

Laneia: Yeah. Fraught as hell.

Christina: And not great. I don’t know. Everybody maybe needs to chill out by what we mean by family. Just like a little bit, maybe. Tap the breaks.

Laneia: Yeah. I agree. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Drew: Christina, have you dated anyone with kids?

Christina: I have not.

Drew: That’s interesting.

Laneia: Would you? Do you think that’s something you would want to do, like if it happened?

Christina: It’s a tough road for me to walk with my obvious love of Mommis and my not dislike of children, sounds incredibly rude, and as does disinterest, which was the other word I was going to choose. My lack of desire to be a parent in any real way. Happy to be the cool gay auntie who pops in every now and then. I think I certainly could date someone who had grown children, a co-parenting situation where things are perhaps sticky. I won’t be joining that. That would be a real struggle for old CT. I have two adult children in their 30s that I live with and that feels like enough for me, child wise.

Laneia: That’s extremely valid.

Christina: What about you, Drew?

Drew: I’ve hooked up with and casually dated some people who have young kids, and it was never from a place of like, it was never serious enough that there was ever a feeling of potential future responsibility, or meeting them, or anything like that. I would definitely be open to it, though. If I was like single and dating, I mean, when I was single and dating, there were some people who had kids who like I actively did at some point want to date, and it didn’t work out. But something that was interesting going back to the straight people versus queer people thing is that, I’m thinking of two people in particular, were talking about it in— were mostly coming from straight dating world, and were like sort of entering a new queerness, and it felt very much like, “Oh, I have kids. I can’t date.” And I was like, “I don’t think it’s going to have issues.” And they did. They brought up a lot of the stuff we were saying about the way that straight men react. I was like, “I can only speak for myself, but I don’t think that that’s going to be an issue for queer people.” So, it makes sense that you’re confirming that, that it hasn’t ever come up for you.

Laneia: It really hasn’t. And also, just the idea of casual dating that is also still meaningful. Like, it’s not something that’s looked down on here. I don’t know. There’s just like a lot less pressure. And I think that makes it a little bit more of a chill situation where it’s like, “That’s fine.” But yeah, if my children were extremely young right now, I don’t think I would have dated as quickly as I did. I think I would’ve honestly given that maybe a couple years, but they can make their own dinner. I had a free Saturday. I was like, “What are we waiting for? There’s no reason to put this off.” Yeah.

Drew: Yeah. When your kids were younger, what was it like? Like, not from a dating — I know this is a dating podcast, but I am curious about this — just like general socializing, did that play into it? Like, as far as… I don’t know, like going out and just being a young queer person? And in environments where I think a lot of people, like you mentioned going on OkCupid when your kids were young, do you feel like you had to rely more on a dating app, dating site more than like going out in the world and like a gay clubs and whatever.

Laneia: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Definitely. Also, I had been married to a man, and then ended that after realizing I was gay. And it was the idea of like going out into the gay culture with no one, with no friends, no community. Literally no. There was no way that was going to happen. One time I did take myself to a gay bar, and it was top to bottom, the most humiliating experience I have ever put myself through. And I was like, “That is never happening again.”

Christina: Wait. Yeah. I’m sorry. We’re going to have to take a quick detour to talk about why this is so upsetting for you. This does sound like the beginning of a film, just so you know.

Laneia: Oh, God, it was horrible. It was very much like Tai at that party in Clueless. Just like trying to figure out how to stand. I wore the wrong outfit. It was like a sweater. It was so, so bad. I got there way too early. The other thing, it just could not have been worse. And luckily, there was a table of queer women types, at least that invited me over, to sit with them, and had conversations with me. And that was nice, extremely nice of them. But yeah, I was like, this is not going to be how I meet people, obviously. And then, also just being extremely online, made it just so much easier to keep being online, doing what I was doing. But the other thing about me, since I did have children so young is that when I was dating like that second round, I was an anomaly in that way. Nobody else had children. I had to make sure that I had day dates. It was all brunches for a while, like during the week, because that’s when they were in a classroom, and it was free childcare. And that did feel awkward. And that did feel like it was putting me in a specific type of dating. Not very hookup, not that sexy to date, for brunch only.

Christina: You’re saying Wednesday brunch isn’t the hottest time to get a date? Good to know.

Laneia: It is not. I would not recommend it, maybe in a larger city, but yeah, not in Phoenix. But that was… I think the hardest part was that I knew that I would be the only person that most of these people had dated that had children, just simply because who at that age would have quite so many kids, and still not be in a relationship yet. So, yeah.

Christina: Yeah. I think that makes sense.

Drew: Was like A-Camp then, like the first time that you were just like… I assume you never brought your kids to A-Camp. So, was that—

Laneia: No.

Drew: —like the first time that you were immersed in just like chaotic queer partying?

Laneia: Unfortunately, it was not. My first immersion in that was Dinah Shore.

Drew: Incredible.

Christina: Gorgeous.

Laneia: Got a couple of Dinah Shores. I went to New York for a while. That was the first time that I was around that many people. And I was like, this is literal chaos. At that point, I was like, “I don’t know if I can actually date, and have kids if this is what it looks like.” But luckily that was just typical New York, like debauchery type stuff. So, that wasn’t everywhere. But yeah, Dinah Shore was crazy. But even there, I was like, “These are just not my people.” I just knew that. So, A-Camp was the first place I went where I was like, “Oh, okay.” Like, “Here we are.” Like, “This feels normal.” Which makes sense, because it was our camp. So, very self-selecting.

Christina: Right. Right. Everyone said, “Yeah, girl, put that sweater on and head to the club.”

Laneia: Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Drew: At what age did you… Sorry, I’m fully interviewing you. I’m just—

Christina: I know, I’m loving Drew as a journalist.

Laneia: No, I love it.

Christina: Drew said, “Journalism, baby.”

Drew: What age did you first connect with other queer moms and queer parents?

Laneia: Damn, I don’t know if I—

Drew: Or if you ever did.

Laneia: —really would say that I have. It’s been a really weird situation for me specifically, because I did have my first kid when I was in high school. And so, none of my friends at that time had kids. And then, as I got older, I was surrounded by straight people. And so, they were having some kids, but mine were always older. I just never had like a peer group there. And then, coming out, forget it. Absolutely no peer group. I’ve met some parents through Autostraddle and have talked with them, either on social media or in comments, definitely at A-Camp. There’s a lot of parents there, not a lot, but more than I would’ve expected, to be honest.

Drew: Sure. Yeah.

Laneia: And that was fun, but it’s like, I just never have felt super connected to other moms. And I do think that is, because I was exposed to air quotes other moms when I thought I was straight. So, I think I was just like, “This is probably not for me.” Because, God, I don’t want to like talk shit about straight people, but it was… I truly was like—

Drew: This is a safe space for that.

Christina: Yeah. The space literally couldn’t be safer if we tried.

Laneia: I was like this cannot be your only interest. Like you have got to be kidding me. Like don’t you have anything else to do? It just was very centered around like, being a mother was their identity, and being a wife was their identity, which is fine if that’s your thing. But for me, I immediately was like I’m going to go. Like that’s not going to work for me.

Christina: Well, Yeah. And to be surrounded by that fully, and not have anyone who was even approaching your level of like, oh, I also have other interests.

Laneia: Exactly.

Christina: I would feel very Stepford wife in that scenario.

Laneia: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. That was it. So I just really— there’s someone else at work who we were discussing, she also has kids, and she’s a few years older than me, I think just a couple. And was also like, yeah, I cannot understand, like identifying specifically and singularly as a mom, like that just would never happen. And that’s how I feel. And I did struggle with that for a bit. Just being like, “Am I a horrible parent that I have other interests outside of my children?” But it was really just for a bit, because then I was like, no, this is me. I don’t really just identify as that. And so, I’m not finding my own community there among other parents.

Christina: That’s like an impressive ability, I feel. To be able to feel like that’s not bad parenting, because I feel like so much of media will tell you that that is definitively bad parenting, especially God forbid, if you are a mother. Like, what you should be interested in is your children first and foremost.

Laneia: Just your children. Right.

Christina: And then, maybe your husband, second.

Laneia: Yeah.

Christina: And I think it kind of whips that you were able to be like, “Nope. That’s actually not my failing. That is y’all’s issue, I’m out of here.”

Laneia: I definitely did try it for a while and was just like, “I can’t do this.” And then, honestly, I think coming out of that was around the time that I was like, “And I’m gay?” Like, so, these two might go hand in hand.

Christina: Yeah. That tracks, that really tracks.

Laneia: I am going to need to do more things like be gay. So, yeah.

Christina: This is not an interview question. Well, I guess it is, but it’s for Drew, which is a plot twist.

Drew: Oh.

Christina: Well, just thinking about dating and wanting to be parents, or dating people with parents. Do you have any interest in having children? I think listeners can probably assume by the fact that I went between disgusted and disinterested on children that like I’m all set. But Drew as a person, is that something that when you’re dating, you think about like, “Oh, could I make a family with this person?” Like, “Am I interested in doing that?”

Drew: I would like to have children, but I don’t necessarily think that it’s in the cards for me, which I do think is interesting. I think when I’ve dated people who have kids, the thought has definitely crossed my mind of being like, oh. Like, I wouldn’t be their kid’s parent, but if they were young, I would be like a major role in their life. And that could be really nice. But I also want to check that, because I would never want to assume anything about what they would want. And I mean, maybe if I was dating someone for like six months, I would like start to think about it or like several years, but early on, it crosses my mind that like, “Oh, that’s probably one of the only ways that I would ever have kids in my life in that way.” I’m just like I can’t biologically have kids, because I decided to not freeze my sperm when I started transitioning. And it’s pretty challenging to go back and detransition to get viable sperm. It’s like pretty unlikely. It’s not impossible, but it’s just tricky. And it just was too expensive. And I just wanted to spend that money on… I don’t know. It’s weird to be 23, and having to decide if you ever want to have kids or not. But I just knew in that moment that like, yeah. But it’s definitely something I think about to a certain extent. But I also am okay with the thought that kids would be in my life, because my sister has kids or my friends have kids. Though, most of my friends don’t want kids and it’s annoying to me. I wish that more of them would want to have kids. So, I could like be a gay aunt. But yeah, I don’t know. It still feels like a little fraught to me, because I think I went through a journey of like, “Of course, I’m going to have kids because I’m straight, and that’s what we do.” And then, I went to like, “No, I’m gay. And I do things differently, and I don’t even think I want kids, and whatever.” And then, sort of like settling on a place of being like, “Oh, yeah. It’s something I’d be open to happening. And I don’t really know what scenario it would happen.” I also tend to date people who don’t want kids. All my serious relationships have been with people who it’s either like, “Oh, maybe someday.” Or it’s not. I’ve never dated anyone, who’s like, “I just want to get pregnant.” So, yeah. That’s my long-winded answer. I like kids, though. I really hope that I find ways throughout my life that I’m around kids. And I’ve volunteered tutored before, and things like that. And I always enjoy interacting with kids. Though, I obviously assume that being a parent is very different when it’s 24/7.

Christina: Yeah. Yeah. It’s interesting that like, I do have kids in my life who I love and support dearly, but none of them are from one group of straight friends that I still have. I don’t have a ton of queer folks in my life who have young kids. I have some friends who have older kids who are in that kind of like 23, 24-ish range. But there’s not a ton of people in my immediate circle who are like, “Oh, and we’re getting married, and thinking about kids. And this kind of queer way.” I’m like, well, thank God for those couple straights I let hang on these many years. Because their weird little kids are really getting me through, and I’m going to turn all of them gay, and I can’t wait.

Laneia: That’s a wonderful service, honestly. Thank you for doing that.

Christina: Just introducing four-year-olds to many tattoos and watching their eyes get wide with wonder, and being like, “Sorry, mom.”

Laneia: Yeah, I was exposed. I was exposed. That sounds insane. But there was another child that was around the same age as my children, in the family that I was married into a few years ago. And they always were fascinated by me and my partner at that time. And then, ended up coming out as non-binary later. I don’t know how that’s gone since then, but I was like, “Fuck. Yes.” I was thrilled to learn that. Also, you can just tell when a kid is just a little bit more interested in you than the other kids are. There’s something there, they’re picking up on something, they’re studying something, because kids do just study everything. And so, that was really cool to watch, and have it around me in that way. Those are really the only children that I’ve been around, likehat family stuff, that weren’t my own, or weren’t related to me immediately. And I think it’s cool as a queer person who does not have kids, and who’s maybe not in on that journey. I think it’s cool that queer people have, I think a little bit more of an ability to be imaginative about how you could be involved in children’s lives and how you could make a difference, whatever that means. But how you could give back somehow to, like the human race, in that way. I don’t know. I think straight people could do with a little bit of an imagination when it came to things like that.

Christina: I think straight people could do with a little bit of an imagination. It was a really beautiful takeaway, kind of just period.

Laneia: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Christina: Drew, you’ve got your thoughtful face on.

Drew: Yeah. Well, now, I’m just thinking about the fact that, Laneia, when you’re talking about your experience of having kids young and being in a straight marriage, and you’re talking about it like it’s, I don’t know, like the not sort of regular way of queer parenthood. And I was thinking about the fact that most of the people who have kids who I’ve met in dating, and maybe it’s because it’s in a space of dating, and they’re closer to my age or whatever, but that is the scenario of most of the people I meet have kids is, they were in a straight relationship, and had kids young. And then realize that they were a queer and now are dating. And it’s just something that we don’t see in media, like almost ever. And maybe that’s because I think there’s a lot of reasons, one of which is that even queer media is often like sort of trying to fit into like a straight cultural way of being. And also, I think there’s a class element to it of like it’s so expensive to have kids through ways that are, I don’t know, you know what I’m saying. So—

Laneia: Yeah, definitely.

Drew: —it’s interesting that we don’t really have a lot of portrayals of that, but out in the world, that’s the primary way people who I meet, who have kids, had kids.

Christina: Yeah, absolutely.

Laneia: That’s really interesting. I knew I think one or two other people who that was also their experience. Well, two, yeah, that I’m thinking of that they, I believe got pregnant in college, early, early college. And yeah, learning that about somebody will immediately endear me to them. Because it is truly like, it’s either you were in a place where you hadn’t had a chance to be yourself yet, or you did have a chance, and you were trying to maybe talk yourself out of it, or you were trying to figure out if there was any escape patch there. And that is a very specific trajectory. And it is, not to bring this down, it’s like painful really to think that something so huge could happen to you at a time when you’re barely even formed all the way. And so, anytime I ever meet another person who got pregnant super, super young, I am just like, “Oh, my God.” Like, “I love you. How are you doing? How has it been?” But that is really cool. And this is in LA that you’re seeing like a lot of that? That’s so cool. That makes me really happy.

Drew: I don’t want to say a lot, but I would say like two. But those are the experience of like… Yeah…

Laneia: That seems like a lot.

Drew: Yeah.

Christina: Yeah. Yeah. I think the same, like the two, or three people I can think of that have kids, and had a similar experience of were either in a marriage or had kids really young. And then, later were like, “Oh, actually very gay is what’s happening here. It’s like a very gay thing that’s happening here.” Yeah. Because I don’t see a ton of people who have come together as a queer couple and decided to do like, “We are making our family in some way.” I haven’t seen a ton of that in my personal experience.

Laneia: It is also probably like a different age bracket doing that, because like you said, Drew, I can’t imagine how costly that would actually be. And it’s expensive enough to have them after the fact, like, that’s just so much money. So, you’re already pricing out so many queer people.

Christina: Exactly.

Laneia: Just by virtue of that. Yeah. Which sucks.

Christina: Whoo.

Drew: Well…

Christina: Gosh, I feel like I learned some stuff.

Drew: I really did.

Christina: It’s just like a nice conversation to have. That is something that I don’t think about a lot, something I don’t have experience with. And I love having a little brain tease moment and getting to know people. I think that’s gorgeous.

Laneia: Yeah. This was really fun. Thank you so much.

Drew: Yeah. I just read your interview with your partner. And so, today has been a Laneia day. I feel like I’ve—

Christina: Got Laneia on the old brain.

Laneia: You’re like basically in our relationship right now. If you just read it, and you talk to me today, then I think that means we’re in a throuple. Yeah.

Drew: It’s a really nice relationship to be in.

Christina: It was a very sweet interview.

Laneia: Thank you. Yeah. She’s really cool.

Drew: Let’s move on then to our crush of the week segment. Crush corner, is that what we called it last season?

Christina: Crush corner.

Drew: Crush corner.

Christina: But crush of the week is a funny twist on it. Yeah.

Drew: Christina, do you want to start?

Christina: Yeah. My crush corner this week. One, Margaret Cho, she’s just having a year. She was popped up on The Flight Attendant. She popped up on Hacks. She’s delightful in Fire Island. She’s just every which where. I think we should give her many more flowers, and get her in all of the damn projects. I’m always happy to see her. I’m always happy to hear her. More Margaret Cho forever. And she really was living the life that her in Fire Island. I was like, this is going to be me in very few years. This is really actually quite staggering. This lesbian scammer who has a house full of young gays.” Yeah, that tracks.

Drew: That’s beautiful. I want that for you.

Christina: Margaret Cho, celebrate her love her. Drew, who you got?

Drew: Mine is the creative team behind Tahara, which is a new queer movie that is takes place at a Jewish funeral, and is hilarious, and brilliant. And I reviewed it, and that review will be out by the time this podcast comes out. So, I’ll link to it. So I don’t have to spend 10 minutes gushing about it here. But it’s really good. And it’s probably because it’s independent. It’s going to have a slow rollout. So, I don’t know where it will be at theater wise or streaming wise when this comes out. But it’s just so, so good. It’s so special. And I think everyone should see it. And that’s T-A-H-A-R-A for people who aren’t Jewish.

Christina: I was going to say for the gentiles among us.

Drew: Yeah. Laneia, do you have a crush this week?

Laneia: Yeah. I thought long and hard about this. And I think my crush this week is going to have to be all of the ghost hunters that Kristen Stewart is currently rounding up. I have a crush on every one of them. I haven’t seen them. I don’t know anything about them, but I know in my heart that I’m going to have big feelings for them once I do meet them. So, I’m excited about that show.

Drew: I’m really excited for you, and for all of us, really.

Christina: Hunting ghosts, that absolutely whips. And it’s very gay. It’s very gay to want to talk to a ghost.

Laneia: It’s very gay.

Christina: Very gay.

Laneia: Yeah.

Drew: Yeah. Well, Laneia, can you tell people where they can find you if you want them to find you?

Laneia: Oh, yeah. So, on Twitter, I am @grrreen, and that’s green with three Rs. Otherwise, it’s spelled normally. And then, I’m private on Instagram, but if you look even remotely queer, I’m adding you, and that is @laneia, L-A-N-E-I-A.

Drew: Great.

Christina: Yes. With that single name Instagram handle.

Laneia: I got in there early.

Christina: That’s hot girl shit, for sure. Absolute sure. Hot.

Drew: Thank you so much, Laneia.

Laneia: Thank you. This was really fun. Thank you, guys.

Christina: This was a ding dang delight.

Drew: Thank you so much for listening to Wait, Is This a Date. You can find us on Twitter and Instagram @waitisthisadate. And you can email us at waitisthisadate@gmail.com.

Christina: Our theme was written by Lauren Klein. Our logo is by Maanya Dhar. And this podcast was produced, edited and mixed by Lauren Klein.

Drew: You can find me on Twitter, Instagram, and TikTok @draw_gregory.

Christina: You can find me on Twitter @C_GraceT. And on Instagram @christina_gracet. And you can find Autostraddle, of course @autostraddle.

Drew: And you can find Autostraddle at autostraddle.com. The reason we’re all here today. Thank you so much, and see you next week. Christina, what is the difference between a date and a podcast?

Christina: Oh, actually, that’s really interesting that you asked that because scientists are at this very moment, horridly trying to figure this out. We have some of our best scholars on this. On the case here, we don’t have an answer, but I think every day we journey closer to understanding.

Drew: I wish them and us, the greatest luck.

Drew (voice memo): It’s a bummer. I was such a prude before I transitioned, because there’s no chance that I’m going to have like a Transamerica situation where I find out that I have a secret kid somewhere. It’d be really, really unlikely considering how little sex I had with how few people. Maybe.

A+ Members Can Submit to the Wait Is This a Date Mailbag!

Feature for Wait Is This a Date Submit to our mailbag episodes! Season 2! Features fun and lighthearted emojis over a pink background with a little photo cutout featuring a photo of two queer people laughing and smiling together over something on a phone.

Wait Is This a Date is coming back for Season 2… and this season, A+ members get the exclusive chance to send mail to Christina and Drew! What’s in this mail, you ask? Your questions, concerns, and vibe checks about queer dating.

Submission Details: We prefer voice memos, so please, please do try to record and send us a voice memo. BUT if you absolutely cannot, that’s okay. We have a place for you to include text, too. We definitely do not need both. You can get these voice memos in throughout the season, but there’s no better time to start than right now so that you have a chance to make it on the first mailbag episode! (We believe there will be 3.)

What happens after you submit? Drew, Christina and Lauren will look through the mailbag and select a few to feature on their special mailbag episodes throughout Season 2 of WITAD! Honestly, as much as I’m sure we all hate to hear our own voices, imagine hearing your own voice on WITAD. Personally, I think it sounds thrilling.

Thank you so much for being a member and making all our Autostraddle projects, including our podcasts like Wait Is This a Date, possible!

Submit to the WITAD Mailbag!

“Wait, Is This a Date?” Podcast Special Episode: 2021 Mailbag

Happy holidays! And by “happy” I mean, things sure feel really bad right now?? And most of us have probably had our holiday plans changed once again?? But luckily our gift to you is a virtual one AKA our long-awaited mailbag episode!

We get into tough feelings surrounding non-monogamy, fictional characters we’d want on the pod, and so much more. Thank you to everyone who sent in questions!

SHOW NOTES

+ Here are the lip recs from Christina! Almost Lipstick from Clinique and Powder Puff Lippie from NYX.

+ If it feels good, do it.

+ You can’t watch Barbara Hammer movies online but if you’re in LA you can see Nitrate Kisses in theatres next month for free.

+ Scissoring merch! Get your scissoring merch!

+ An essay on Paul Takes the Form of a Mortal Girl and my personal brand of sluttiness.

+ Ro’s piece on dental dams.

+ The Novice is out now! Watch it!

Drew: I was talking to my dad of all people—

Christina: Bringing dads into this space!

Drew: I know — about being happy. And my dad was like, “Oh, well, do you think it’s because this is the first relationship that you’ve gotten into as yourself?

Christina: First of all, dad, that’s so sweet!

Drew: I know! Very sweet dad comment.

Christina: Go off, king!

Drew: And I was like — very funny for you to call my dad king.

Theme song plays

Drew: Hi, I’m Drew!

Christina: And I’m Christina! And this is a podcast that I forgot the intro to already.

Drew: That’s okay! It’s been a while.

Christina: Woohoo, it has.

Drew: This is Wait, Is This a Date?

Christina: Yes, that podcast.

Drew: I’ll do your part. Welcome to Wait, Is This a Date? An Autostraddle podcast all about sex and dating as queer people with queer people, hopefully. How, how am I doing?

Christina: No, I think you’re crushing it. I think what’s really exciting about this episode is this is our mailbag episode where we’ll be taking questions from you, our listeners. A bunch of you sent in voice memos and emails, and we have the content and the questions and hopefully the answers, but like, I, I’m not gonna say anything too crazy. I don’t wanna get too outlandish, you know?

Drew: Yeah. We’re questioning along with you. Should we — I mean, this probably isn’t people’s first episode, but in case people missed us, you know, introducing ourselves, maybe that’s someone’s favorite part of the podcast. So I think we should introduce ourselves.

Christina: Yeah, absolutely.

Drew: Okay, cool. I’ll go first. My name is Drew Gregory. I’m a writer and a filmmaker and a queer person. I still identify as a lesbian, but I’ve been using that word less, which is maybe something that I can unpack on a future episode. I still am a lesbian, but I also am like, what does that even mean? You know? I don’t know. Labels are funny, but I’m pretty confident that I’m a writer. I’m pretty confident that I’m a filmmaker. Uh, what about you?

Christina: Yeah. Uh, I am Christina Tucker, a writer at Autostraddle also. I am also a queer person. I started actually using “queer” more when I first came out and now I use lesbian maybe equally. I’m also very, I just kind of use whatever word feels right, coming out of my mouth in the moment. And I don’t really think about it much more than that. But that’s a journey we’re all on, frankly.

Drew: I support that. I do think that sums up who we are, that I’m like, “I’m going to have to revisit this in the future.” And you’re like, “I just sort of do what I feel and don’t need to think more about it.”

Christina: I quite literally pick the word that works best for the bit, so…

Drew: Well, yeah. So as you said, this is our mailbag episode. Should we just get into the first — oh, I also want to say before we start that if you sent us a question and we don’t get to it, it might be because there were certain things that were like, oh, I want to unpack this on a future full episode, maybe with a special guest who would be more, you know, maybe more qualified to answer it. So we really appreciate all the questions—

Christina: You guys sent a lot of questions, which was cool, but we might not have time to get to every single one of them.

Drew: Yeah. But they were all read.

Christina: And also some of you just sent us compliments without questions.

Drew: And, you know, usually with — if this was a Q&A before or after a movie, it’d be like, don’t compliment the person. There’s a whole audience here, but for this, the only audience was Christina and I and Lauren. And so honestly, compliments, great. Thank you so much. Really, very nice.

Christina: Thrilling to receive, truly one of my main food groups.

Drew: So yeah, let’s start with the first question. In the voice memo, the person says that they’re semi-closeted, so we’re gonna leave out names just to be safe here. And let’s listen to this question.

Anonymous Asker: So this is coming from a person who has no experience with dating whatsoever, mostly because I’m semi-closeted and living out in the mostly conservative boonies. When I graduate high school, I’m leaving this place so I can have a taste of freedom. And I’m realizing that I’m going to be entering the queer dating realm. This is a very generic query, but how do I ask a girl out for the first time without falling into a full on panic attack? As you can tell, I’m very bad at talking to people.

Drew: This is an age old, age old question. Truly.

Christina: It really is. I honestly think it is why we have a podcast.

Drew: Yeah. I mean, I feel like we sort of know where I’m going to go with this, which is like, it’s about accepting the fact that no one’s good at this? I mean, maybe people eventually get good at it because you do it enough and you sort of lose the — what’s it — the exposure therapy or whatever — but like, it is one of those things where you just do it and it gets easier. And personally, even before I came out — I mean, to clarify, I was asking girls out before I came out because of the whole being a trans person thing. And when I think about the early days of when I left my terrible small town and went off to college and was first really asking people out, I really took a very direct approach and really was like, “Hello, do you want to go on a date?” And I think over the years, I moved away from that a little bit. But I honestly still, I still think sometimes it’s great to just be direct and ask someone out, and you get a clear answer. I mean, you could also do the thing where you just start vague and ask someone to hang out and you just, you know, play a, Wait, Is This a Date game for awhile.

Christina: Right. Fingers crossed, I hope that message comes across. I also think in a scenario, like for me, when I started dating, as I was queer dating, I was out of college, way out of my hometown, but I was doing a lot of dating via apps and that does cut down the awkwardness because it’s like, we all know what we’re here for. And while I think there are obviously negatives to any dating app, much like most things in life, I do think that kind of removing that barrier of like, oh no, how awkward is this going to be? Like, is it going to be like, no, it’s, that’s what this is for the platform where you have come to. And then when you, when you make the hangout ask, it does necessarily know that it’s a date because that’s why we’re all here. Vibing.

Drew: That’s a good point.

Christina: I mean, I do understand that it is — like that feeling of like, “Oh no, this is going to be so awkward because I’m so awkward.” But honestly the times I have felt super awkward, frankly, most people are just like, that was charming. So don’t think about your awkwardness only in like, this is awkward and everybody hates me. People can be like, that’s awkward, but it’s kind of cute. And I do want to go on a date with you. Two things can be true. I think that’s beautiful.

Drew: Very true. Yeah. Yeah. I think we have this idea that if you ask someone out, you have to be like major top energy Shane-style, and it’s like, no, you can ask someone out as an awkward person, and that’s a different brand of hot, but it’s still, it’s still one of the brands.

Christina: There are many brands of hot.

Drew: Yeah.

Christina: Wow. That’s really beautiful.

Drew: Great. Well, let’s move on to the next question that is coming from Claire from Australia.

Claire: Hey, I’ve loved listening to you guys from here in Queensland, Australia, and had a question for each of you actually. Christina, what is this non-transferable lip liner that you wear on a first date, and where can I buy it? And Drew, yours is a bit harder. How do you know when to listen to the hard feelings that come up during a non-monogamous situation and when to work through them?

Christina: Wow. I love that I get a lip and you get hard feelings. I think that’s a really beautiful. I will go first and give you some time to think about the hard feelings. So there’s a couple of versions of a non-transferable lip. When I was in my youth back in the old mid-aughts, when everyone was simply addicted to wearing a matte lipstick, I did a lot of, like, Stila mattes are pretty non-transferable. But here’s the thing I’m getting older. My skin is getting drier. I can’t be wearing a matte lip like that and not having a dried out lip moment. So now we’ve moved into a stain, which is really chef’s kiss. Cause it can get a little must, but no one really notices, still look great. Currently a big fan of Clinique. Their black honey is an incredible one and also the Knicks lippie powder puff, many colors, fades beautifully. A great lip stain. Go forth and make out on your dates with great lips. That’s all I want for everybody really. Now, Drew, talk to me about hard feelings.

Drew: Hard feelings in non-monogamous relationships. Wow. Yeah. So a fun thing that happened in the hiatus that we’ve had so far is that I have a girlfriend now.

Christina: She’s incredible!

Drew: Yeah. I’m really, really happy. I am just, I feel like everyday sort of learning new definitions of what relationships and love and sex can be, and have not been this much of a romantic since I was in high school and it was all theoretical. So, I’m very happy, love to share that. I am like, okay. But also what happens when you’re, you know, in a relationship that you care about instead of, you know, just having hookups and fillings and stuff, is that you also are checking in more with your own boundaries and your partner’s boundaries as far as what you talk about. And look, all of this could be stuff that I didn’t share. And I just went into the question and was vague, but this is my version of being open by being like, explaining like certain reasons why I might be vague on the podcast moving forward, because I do think actually it’s important in our parasocial relationships we have with people who write or people who have podcasts that like, I don’t know, to talk about these things, to talk about like how I decide my boundaries, especially as someone who writes and talks about sex very graphically. Anyways, so all of that as a preamble to this question—

Christina: Context is king. That’s what we’re always saying.

Drew: Which is to say that like, I mean, in a way, like I’m, I’m in my first relationship, like as someone who’s open about being non-monogamous and navigating that and et cetera. And I think just speaking generally, like every relationship is its own conversation. And with the people who are in that relationship, everyone brings priorities and brings things that are like ideals into the relationship, and also, makes compromises and has discussions and — or doesn’t, and then that’s your own version of that. Right? And so I think it’s kind of an annoying answer, but it is sort of like, you have to both talk with yourself and talk with your partner or partners, and decide sort of, you know, what is necessary for you, you know, if you’re someone who’s monogamous and you start dating someone who’s non-monogamous, is that something you can get accustomed to? Are there certain things that make you comfortable? Is it more comfortable for you when your partner hooks up with someone that you all know and it’s casual and it’s whatever, or do you, is it more comfortable if they have other relationships, but they’re not around you at all? Or like all these — there’s so many ways to have non-monogamous relationships. And I don’t know if you’re asking this from the perspective of someone who is very free in non-monogamy and is potentially dating someone who isn’t, or vice versa. But I think that’s often a — I won’t even say a conflict, it’s just a part of being non-monogamous, I think, is that most people have different relationships to non-monogamy.

Christina: Yeah.

Drew: For me personally, I could date someone who had several partners. But generally with non-monogamy, my ideal would be to date someone where I’m their partner, and then we are not monogamous. If I were to date someone, which isn’t the current situation that I’m in, where I was dating someone who wanted to have multiple partners, I would have to be like, okay, what are my feelings about this person? What are my feelings about how this person communicates? Do I think that that would be something that could work for me? And figure that out. And so there are relationship dynamics I could be in where I’m on one end and where I’m on the other end. And I think that just goes to show that like, it’s just about deciding if the person you’re dating — one, if your feelings for them are strong enough that it’s worth it, and also if you’re compatible enough in your desires that it can work, because sometimes you really like someone and they really like you, or you really love someone and they really love you, and it just doesn’t work out with what you both want from a relationship. And that’s sad, but it is also just the case. So whether or not to work through the hard feelings is always going to be case by case. And I think that it’s also very dependent on communication styles, because if you have good communication with the person or people you’re dating, you can work through a lot more than if you struggle to communicate. So those are all my rambling thoughts on this thing that I think about a lot.

Christina: I would like listeners to know that this is why I get six-minute voice memos from Drew. Though in fairness, she has not sent me a six-minute voice memo in a very long time.

Drew: It’s been a long time.

Christina: But that is usually the energy. And I do feel like I just spoke one into existence. I can’t wait for the next couple of days.

Drew: Do you think it’s because I’m in a relationship?

Christina: I know that it is.

Drew: I’m feeling insecure about that now. Yeah. Now I’m like, am I a bad friend now that I’m in a relationship?

Christina: I think it’s fine and beautiful and wonderful and great. And I’m not exactly clamoring to receive more six-minute voice memos.

Drew: I’m going to send you a six-minute voice memo about my relationship. Would that be fun? Would that be a fun thing for you to have?

Christina: I mean, yes, of course it would. You’re my friend.

Drew: Thank you. Okay. Moving on.

Christina: Moving on.

Drew: Let’s see. This voice memo is from Julia.

Julia: Hey Drew. Hey Christina. Here’s my question for y’all. If you could have any fictional queer character on the pod, who would it be and what dating topic would you discuss? Thanks for taking these Qs! Bye!

Christina: This is such a fun question.

Drew: This is a great question. My — honestly, and not to be incredibly Autostraddle about it, but my gut reaction was like, I would like a second season that is a sit down with every main character of The L Word. And just to be like, “What’s wrong with you?”

Drew: Yeah. Okay. So I’ve been making a concerted effort in both my brain and my writing, to talk about The L Word less, because I’m like, there’s so much other stuff out there and like, it is fun that we have this common language, but also, I don’t know, I was very frustrated with the last season. But when this question came in, the first thing I thought was like, Bette Porter, come on and talk about boundaries. We need to talk about: when is it okay to hook up with people you work with? When is it not okay? Is it usually not okay? Yes. So maybe we should talk about that. Yeah, so that would be fun, but also we don’t usually have guests on to roast them or to criticize them. We also have people on—

Christina: I think season 2 can be anything we want it to be.

Drew: That’s a great point. That’s a great point.

Christina: A good L Word character to have on would be GiGi. That would be fun.

Drew: She knows how to talk about—

Christina: She knows how to communicate. She knows how to have boundaries. She knows how to express desire. That would be very fun. But in a non-L Word, does anybody come up for you? Like in a non L word space? Let’s pull it back? Yeah.

Drew: Yeah. Let’s do that challenge. Well now I’m just thinking about people who I want to be like, what’s your problem?

Christina: I know, it’s fine.

Drew: Which, maybe that should be the tone of season two, because like Hattie on Twenties, I also want to have a long talk with her about so many things, but I’m trying to think of someone who’s like Gigi style where I’m like, I’d want this person on because I think they could have some really good insight.

Christina: I mean, obviously for me, the answer is Julianna Margulies’ character on The Morning Show. I would like Laura Peterson to enter this space. She’s very good at talking about boundaries. She’s very good at expressing her feelings. She actually comes from a different universe than The Morning Show’s universe. I would just really like to talk to her about that and also her apartment. I really have a lot of questions.

Drew: Yeah. I think that my answer is Emma from Vida.

Christina: Ooh. Good one.

Drew: I’m trying to think what we would talk about. Is it because I mostly just want to have the excuse at the end of the episode to ask her if we were on a date and really lay on the flirting?

Christina: And that did factor into my Laura Peterson decision as well, of course.

Drew: Of course. But I also think that she is also someone who has a lot of boundaries in ways that — and then not doesn’t have boundaries — and I just think that she’s an interesting person where I would love to know like, post-one-night-stand etiquette. I think that’d be fun, because I think she’s someone who would be very good at being like, you cannot sleep over or here is your coffee, now go.

Christina: Having those little one liners to get people out of the door is really an important factor in a one night stand.

Drew: Yeah. Thank you for that question.

Christina: A banger question.

Drew: Very fun. I’m going to continue to daydream about that for a while. Let’s see. Okay. This next question is: from Annie.

Annie: Hey, girl, hey. First of all, I wanted to say that I love the podcast so much. I like how you both are so relatable all the damn time. But that’s not my question. My question is, how do you get back into dating? And how do you feel good about it, after a long relationship has ended? The last time I was single, I considered myself an 18-year-old Mormon boy, and now I’m a mom of three in her thirties and it’s so different. Help.

Drew: So I don’t have as extreme of a gap from 18-year-old Mormon boy, to mom in her thirties. But, when I started dating again in 2019, I was getting out of a three and a half year relationship where, when I got into it, I was a 21-year-old boy who wasn’t sure about his religion. And so I very much am like, look, there were so many challenges in my brain when I was first getting out into dating again, and so I’m sure those are heightened for you. I think the thing that I could say is that it’s really fun. Like, okay. So not to make this an episode where I just gush about having a girlfriend who I’m in love with, but I was talking to my dad of all people, about—

Christina: Bringing dads into this space.

Drew: I know — about being happy and my dad was like, “Oh, well, do you think it’s because this is the first relationship that you’ve gotten into as yourself?

Christina: First of all, dad! That’s so sweet!

Drew: Very sweet, I know, very sweet dad comments.

Christina: Go off, King.

Drew: And I was like — very funny for you to call my dad king — but I was like, oh, that’s really interesting. And I think it’s both true in relationships where you’re in love and building a partnership, and also with one night stands and casual dates and whatever that, like, as hard as it is to get back out there. And especially like it’s a totally new world to be dating as a woman dating as a queer person. Those are all so new. Dating as someone who’s an adult instead of a teenager. Those are all such different things. And I guess I just would say: Know that not only will you have meaningful, beautiful experiences, but you’re also going to have just a lot of fun, and a lot of fun with other people. A lot of fun just with yourself and just feeling what it’s like to date. I mean, you know, my dad was being very much like, cis straight dad language, I don’t necessarily like language of like, “You’re yourself now.” That’s a little bit, like, whatever. But there is something to that, right? I think even just getting older, even putting transness aside, it’s so fun to meet people on a level where you’ve done so much work on yourself to be the person you are.

Christina: Yeah, that’s what I was going to say.

Drew: Yeah. Take it away.

Christina: Absolutely. I mean, well, the first thing I was going to say was literally the complete opposite of Drew’s, which was: Accept that it’s going to be hard, and that’s also fine. Because it will be, right? It’s going to be a bit of a challenge, and it’s going to feel weird, and you’re not going to nail it every time. And that’s part of being a person. And that is something that, when I am in my fits and spurts of dating, is like, I just have to let myself be like, look, you’re not going to enjoy every second of it. And that’s also life and that’s okay. And it does get easier, which is the other part of dating, which is like anything else, it is practice, you have to practice it to be better at it. And once you get past those like initial challenges and stumbles, like, yeah, then you’re going to go out and have dates and meet fun people and learn new things about yourself. And that’s really fun. You can have both the fun and the hard thing.

Drew: Absolutely. Definitely be easy on yourself, as you’re getting back out there. And, you know, I look back on the last few years as such a learning experience for me and, it’s sort of wild that a lot of that was happening — I mean, not in public in the way that like, you know, someone like Elliott Page — but Elliott Page isn’t writing a bunch of personal essays about their sex life. So it is interesting. I sometimes will go back and read essays I wrote, I don’t know, two years ago. And I’m like, this is a different person.

Christina: Yeah.

Drew: And, but also like, I feel really, I feel a lot of love towards that person. That first year of dating again Drew was like, oh boy, like definitely made some mistakes. There definitely were some very rough times. And there were also some really fun times. And with each passing month, each passing year, it’s gotten better and better. So, I think that’s a really good point, Christina, because it might be hard and that is okay. But just remember that it’s also going to be really great and I’m honestly just really excited for you!

Christina: Those are the two polarities of our pod, me being like, “It will be a challenge, but you will come out of the fires forged and renewed!” And Drew’s like, “You’re going to have so much fun!”

Drew: Isn’t fire fun?! Isn’t being forged in the fire just a real hoot?! Yeah.

Christina: It’s Sag season, for the listeners who need to know that.

Drew: I love Sag season. It’s my favorite time of year. Okay. This next question is from Nick, and it is — there’s no voice memo, so I’m just gonna read it. “Hey guys! Love the pod. Question for ya. You know that thing — Drew, you’ve talked about it — that queer women do where the first date is this long, 8-to-10-hour whirlwind of getting to know each other and intense, passionate feelings. What happens when you’ve gotten used to that as a roadmap for lesbian dating, and then down the line, you meet people and don’t have that experience? You maybe like them just fine, or you don’t quite know yet, or you have a drink or two and then need to go home and think about whether you want to keep seeing them? How do you stop from convincing yourself that the person is not right for you, because it’s supposed to feel passionate and intense from the jump. I’m struggling with getting past the first three days or so with people who are perfectly lovely, but who don’t make me feel intense and crazy? I have a feeling this is unhealthy, but I can’t put my finger on it. Any thoughts are appreciated.”

Christina: I really love this question. I think this is such a good part of dating that we romanticize and don’t think about necessarily like, well, what’s on the other side of that? Like what happens when you don’t have that, you know, 48 hour, you know, together from the first second you saw each other until a week later and all your friends are like, “Are you dead though? Where are you?” And I don’t know, for me, I think having, not necessarily like a, “Oh, I don’t know about this person,” but having, for me, it is more like, I want to feel comfortable with the person that I’m dating. So like, kind of, regardless of whether I feel very intensely passionate about them, which let’s be honest, I don’t tend to feel that way about many people aside from myself. Um, so feeling like I can be the person that I am with somebody new, that is the thing that makes me feel like, “Oh, there’s really something here. And it’s not necessarily for me about that intense, passionate feeling. Because whenever I feel that feeling, I’m like, something’s wrong, this can’t last. This is going to burn out. And then what’s it going to look like? That feeling stresses me out more than makes me feel like, oh, this is really exciting and new.

Drew: Yeah. I have two pieces of advice. The first one is general and it’s good advice. And the second one is very specific and it’s very bad advice. So starting with the good advice—

Christina: Iconic.

Drew: —is that I think the best way of dealing with this is by setting your own boundaries personally. So you don’t spend 8 to 10 hours with someone on a first date. So let’s say you go on a date, you get coffee. It’s like two hours. It’s perfectly pleasant. You think they’re cute, but you don’t feel, whatever, this crazy buzzy feeling, which I would like to agree with Christina. That usually is not a great sign. It can be, but it can also be a problem. So, I think you don’t see that person again that week. Maybe you wait another week to see them. You stretch it out longer to allow the relationship that’s forming to sort of take the time it needs. You sort of just don’t attach outcomes to it. And you’re just like, oh, I had a nice coffee with someone that lasted a couple hours and now it’s gonna, who knows. And you know, if they want to see you again and you want to see them again, go for it. But I think that’s something that I had to work on and learn to do, where I’d be like, “I want to know! Is this person the person who I want to start dating? Do I want to have sex with this person? Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.” And it’s like, I don’t know, maybe not. Do you want to see this person again? Yes? Cool. Do you want to see this person again today? No. You just talked to them for two hours and that was enough? Like, okay. Do you want to see them again in three weeks? You can do that. You can like, I mean, as long as they want to also take it that slow, you can sort of set those boundaries where you do. And then the very specific advice that is maybe not very healthy.

Christina: I’m excited for this one.

Drew: I mean, I think that I tricked myself into getting into a relationship, and it’s because my girlfriend lives in another country — I know, stereotypical, blah, blah, blah. But there was a year of us flirting on Instagram, I don’t know, once a month in the beginning? Very casual, I mean, I talked about this during the season of having people who are just around on Instagram to flirt with because it’s fun. She was one of those people for me, because it was like, it’s a pandemic and you live in another country, this isn’t going to be real. And so, you know, when we first followed each other, it’s not like I was like, “Oh my God. I have an Instagram mutual who’s the love of my life.” I just was like, oh, this is a hot person who lives far away, so the stakes are low. Cool. And then it gradually got deeper and deeper. And then we started FaceTiming like a year into that flirting and then like, so it’s interesting to think about my current relationship in the context of being like, “Oh it actually went really slow. And actually the feelings developed really slowly. I just didn’t know that’s what was happening. So I tricked myself into being open to it being anything, which actually circles back to the general good advice, which is like, just don’t be attached to what something’s going to be. You don’t need to date someone who lives in another country and flirt with them on Instagram for a year during a pandemic, but the pandemic’s not ending, you probably have another year. So, um, you could!

Christina: Dark, but true. I’m also fascinated that you characterize that as bad advice, because that feels like the same thing. It’s just a very specific-to-you scenario, but it is the same, but you’re encouraging a slowdown, taking your time, not putting all of your efforts and energies into one person from jump.

Drew: Yeah. I guess I’m just saying, there are challenges to a long distance relationship and you don’t need to fulfill the cliche of dating someone who lives in another country — though lots of hot people live in other countries.

Christina: Huge, if true.

Drew: You know? Okay. Let’s see this next one. Okay. This next one from Rachel also does not have a voice memo, so I’m going to read it.

Christina: Okay.

Drew: Or do you want to read it, Christina?

Christina: I’m happy to read it if you want me to read it.

Drew: Go for it.

Christina: “I’ve always heard about scissoring slash trimming in the mainstream. Then I learned from the lesbian internet that scissoring was not a real thing. So that was my assumption for years. I tried it with a couple of girlfriends and it was never really enjoyable. I’m in a new relationship now and it’s all we do, and it’s amazing! What are your thoughts on scissoring/trimming personally? What are your thoughts on how it’s represented in straight culture and its reputation in lesbian culture? Keep up the great work. Best regards, Rachel.” Oh, the question of scissoring that comes down from the mountains, you know, it’s such a… I don’t know. I feel like if it works, it works, you know? It is not possibly my favorite sexual activity. It is something I have done to mixed and better results. But like, if you are in a relationship and you guys are doing it all the time and you’re loving it, go the hell off.

Drew: Yeah. I sorta just think in general, one of the best things about lesbian sex, queer sex, et cetera, is that like, it can be anything. And I get the frustration with media representations of being like, “Oh, what they’re doing in Blue Is the Warmest Color isn’t even like, you know, isn’t even good, blah, blah, blah.” And it’s like, sure. I also have had friends be like, “I feel really guilty because the sex scenes in Blue Is the Warmest Color is exactly how I was having lesbian sex as a teenager, and it was really hot and good.” And I’m like, honestly, good for you that you were having lesbian sex as a teenager.

Christina: Yeah, brag.

Drew: And so like, I don’t know. I mean, as someone who doesn’t have a vagina, my experiences of, like, what scissoring is to me, like, I don’t know, I love grinding. I love a good make out where you’re rubbing up against each other. I don’t know if I’m in the exact position that could qualify as scissoring. I’m sure Cosmo has another name for whatever I’m doing. Well, I’m sure Cosmo doesn’t have a name for specifically what I’m doing, but I’m sure it was a name for whatever position my body is with another person. But I just am like, I don’t know, if it’s… yeah. If it feels, if it to quote Julia Nunes, “if it feels good, do it,” you know what I mean?

Christina: Yeah, that is kind of my motto for kind of all sex. You like what you’re doing, and the person you’re doing it with also likes what you’re doing, simply go off.

Drew: Yeah. I also feel like the more that queer sex is shown on screen from queer filmmakers, which I should say in a mainstream setting, because Barbara Hammer was shooting… like, sex… like, you know, decades ago and it’s great. And you should watch it. But the more I think that hopefully we’ll get away from this idea that things have to be certain ways. I mean I was talking, I think I was talking to Riese about this, that when strap ons appeared — the one time there was a strap on on the original L Word, there were people who had problems with it. And it’s so interesting as someone who came of lesbian age later, that like everyone I know uses it — or not uses strap ons, because some people don’t like it, but it’s like, there’s no stigma attached to wanting—

Christina: Yeah, it’s a very culturally accepted experience. I do think something that’s interesting about specifically scissoring is that it’s like a flagging. It’s more, I feel like the concept of scissoring and the imagery of scissoring, like specifically two scissors, is more just to flag gayness than it is actually talked about the actual sex acts itself, which is just a fascinating way that we use language and culture and imagery to be the people we are in the world.

Drew: Absolutely. Get your scissoring merch at autostraddle.com. I’ll put links to all of the scissoring merchandise that Autostraddle sells. Get it in time for the holidays! This ad is impromptu.

Christina: But beautiful.

Drew: Thanks. Okay. This next voicemail, I think, is submitted anonymously. And if you wanted a shout out and we didn’t give you a shout out, because — just know, well, just know that it is coming from a place of, we don’t want to accidentally out anyone. So, we love you very much, and just know that we read your name and we love you.

Christina: And you’re going to hear your voice. So know that it’s you.

Anonymous Asker: I have a crush, okay, crush on a close friend. And if I’m being honest, I’m probably not going to do anything about it. I just don’t know how to move on, because we talk a lot and we like… we around each other a lot. How do you move on from that?

Christina: Yeah, who hasn’t been there?

Drew: I mean, there’s the good advice, which is like, maybe you need some distance from your friend, but I understand that sometimes that’s not a thing.

Christina: Yeah. Um, but I think it is, it can be a thing you just have to figure out the way to make it a thing for you.

Drew: Yeah.

Christina: I mean, it really is the only thing that helps, right? Like how are you going to get over a crush on someone that you hang out with and talk to all the time?

Drew: I will say that I think sometimes you can create distance without it being — this is, wow, the opposite of my usual direct communication recommendation, which is that if you are like — for whatever reason, you’re not going to tell this friend, I would also say like, why not? Is it coming from a place of fear or is it coming from a place of like, oh, this person is in a very happy, monogamous relationship, but I’m not trying to be a messy L Word character? Depending on what the circumstances are, because probably pulling away is the best move. If it’s like, “I don’t want to ruin this friendship,” I have found, as evidenced by this podcast, that sometimes being direct about your feelings and working through them, you can get to friendship that moves beyond that way quicker than if you just kept it inside. So that’s one thought, but if you truly aren’t ever going to say anything and you don’t want to say anything, I think you can — let’s say you talk to this person every day. You can stop talking to this person every day. Right? You don’t have to be like, you don’t have to have a formal friend breakup or disappear or whatever. You can just take some distance, be like, oh, “maybe this person isn’t always my plus one when I” — I mean, are we going to events again? But like, you know, isn’t always your go-to person to call at the end of the night or whatever. You can start to just pull away a little bit and create some more ideas of what you want that friendship to be. And that’s also, I think, a really important thing is being honest with yourself. Do you want this person to be your friend? Or are you just so in love with them that you’re like, “well, I at least want to be around them. I at least want them to be my friend,” you know, because the difference between unrequited love and friendship are very different and it doesn’t mean that one can’t lead to the other or they can’t happen at the same time or whatever. But I think it is important to think about what friendship is to you? And do you want a friendship with this person? And what kind of friendship do you want with this person? And then just taking the steps to make that happen.

Christina: Yeah, I would say basically the same thing. I mean, I’ve definitely been in scenarios in which it was the better choice to have clear communication and to say, “I actually need to step back from this for whatever period of time, because of my feelings.” And then I’ve also done like the, you know, I actually don’t have to text this person about this thing at this moment. That can wait, or I don’t need to do it right now, or I don’t need to do it tomorrow even. I think both can be helpful, and I agree with Drew, I find that being honest and communicating that is usually the best way, but I think that does also involve you taking the time to be honest with yourself about what you want out of this friendship and why you’re fine having these feelings and not doing anything about it and what you maybe are trying to avoid in doing that and what you’re trying to, you know, let yourself just be like, oh, I’m just going to hang out in this kind of in-between space where I have these feelings, but I don’t want to do anything about them. Like, why don’t you want to do anything about that? Maybe take some time to interrogate yourself on that. And whatever answer, you know, you find within yourself, then you can decide how you want to move on. But I do think creating some space, whether it be very communicated and intentional, or just kind of pulling back a little bit will be helpful for you.

Drew: Yeah. Absolutely. This next one is another one where I’m not going to say who it’s from, but, this is actually maybe my favorite one because it is nine seconds long and is just, well, I’ll let it speak for itself.

Anonymous Asker: Hey there. So I’m a pretty shy and reserved person sexually, but I am ready for a ho phase. Where do I start?

Drew: Beautiful.

Christina: I think that is what art is. I think, welcome to Sag season. I think, go the hell off. I also think, I actually don’t know where you start. I mean, I guess you just start dating, right? Like you start by dating?

Drew: I don’t know. I mean, I’ve had a very complicated relationship with my own sluttiness my entire life where I’ve always wanted to be sluttier than I actually am. And I think it’s also funny sometimes when I — I mean, I think if you listen to this podcast, you’ve had the whole scope of where I fall along all sorts of things. But sometimes, based on just individual essays or certain Twitter presences or something, people will think that I’m way more, I don’t know, slutty than I am, where I’m like, I am, but I just like, I’m slutty in my own way. And I think for me… yeah, you just start dating and you also think about what that means to you. Are you just trying to rack up numbers and experiences? Are you trying to try out new things? I mean, I’ve never been someone who’s going to sex parties, it’s just never been my thing. It’s some people’s thing.

Christina: Maybe it’s your thing!

Drew: Yeah, some people who are shy and reserved sexually, that’s where they blossom. That’s not where I have, but if you feel like you want to do that, I very much support that. I also think that it helps to be specific about what you want if you’re on a dating app or whatever that, you know, you can put in your — I mean, some people are very, like, in their bio, like, “I just want someone to sit on my face,” or whatever.

Christina: Down to fuck.

Drew: And you don’t have to, if that’s not your personality, you don’t need to have that, but you can just be like, “looking for something casual,” is even like, enough to whatever. And then when you start talking in the dating app or whatever, you can lead with your sexuality, your flirtatiousness can be, instead of getting to know each other questions, it can be more of a thing of being like, “so what are you into?” You know, just sort of casual, whatever, and you also can be honest with people about sort of like where you’re at.

Christina: Yes, that was going to be my big suggestion to be like, whatever you do, as long as when you are dating people that you are pretty clear about wanting to not be in a serious relationship, wanting to keep it casual, you are probably going to be dating and seeing other people, like, just being clear with your communication around what your expectations are for the relationship and letting the person that you are with or talking to decide if they want to enter into that space with you.

Drew: Yeah. And if you’re someone who — I don’t know if you’re coming to this from a place of life, always sort of being in monogamous relationships and you want to be single for awhile, or if you were often just not hooking up with anyone and now are like, I want to get out there and have a lot of sex. If it’s the first one, I think it’s also being aware of the connections you’re making. There are people who, when I was first single after my last relationship where I was like, I don’t… I just sort of stopped myself from going much further with them, because I was like, I feel like this is something more than a hookup. And some of those people are actually my close friends now, and we never hooked up. But it’s just something to be aware of that you can have whatever types of relationships, types of experiences you want to have as long as you’re deliberate about wanting to have those things and having a little bit of patience.

Christina: Yeah, I totally agree. And I think that you’re going to have a great time and I’m really excited for you.

Drew: Yeah, me too. Okay. This one also doesn’t have a voice memo, so I’m going to read it.

“Greetings. The theme of my questions is, ‘things I’ve Googled recently hoping to find that there is an Autostraddle article.’ How soon into sleeping with someone does one introduce sex toys? How can you tell if a friend or acquaintance is flirting with you? If your advice is to just ask, how do you ask them? Should I get my friends with benefits latex free dental dams for her graduation? Or is that too much? Listening to you both is such a joy. Thanks for providing the lovely podcast.”

Drew: Should we take these one by one?

Christina: Yeah. How soon into sleeping with someone do you introduce a sex toy? I feel like when you want to use a sex toy, is my answer for that. Obviously we have conversations around sex and consent is cool. Don’t surprise someone with a sex toy in the middle of sex, but like, I don’t know. Whenever you want to use one, you throw it out.

Drew: It can be the first time.

Christina: I truly have never really considered when to add in a sex toy in sex. It’s never been part of the processing, I guess, for me in having sex. It’s just a thing that comes up sometimes.

Drew: I think there’ve been periods in my life where I was more hesitant to bring out sex toys the first time I hooked up with people, just because it felt like, I don’t know, it somehow felt more personal to reveal what I own, what I’m into. But I think I’ve gotten over that a little bit. I honestly am like, you can have good sex the first time you have sex with someone. But also, I think what you said was right, like, whenever you want to, so if the first time you have sex with someone you wanted to not have sex toys and you have other boundaries of what you want that experience to be like, that’s fine. But also you totally, the first time you have sex with someone can be like, “Hey, I’m into using this. Are you into using this?” Just as long as you talk about it.

Christina: Yeah. I think part of having sex with people is talking about what you’re into and if you’re into using sex toys when you have sex, that absolutely should be part of the convo, and then let it flow joyously from there. That sounded disgusting, but I’m sorry.

Drew: Let it flow, baby. How can you tell if a friend or acquaintance is flirting with you? If your advice is to just ask, how do you ask them?

Christina: Famously I can’t, so it’s kind of my brand.

Drew: I mean, everyone has different flirting styles, so the only way to know is to ask. I mean, we have like cultural signifiers where things are flirtier, but there are people who will literally ask you personal sex questions, and they’re like, “I’m just a friend. This is just who I am. I’m just a Gemini.” You know, whatever. And that’s great for them, but there’s no catch-all way. So yeah, you do have to ask. And how?

Christina: I feel like the how depends on what you want to do about it?

Drew: Right.

Christina: Because if it’s a friend or acquaintance who is flirting with you that you have been flirting with, and are interested in, then you can kind of lead with a, “Hey, I think you’re really cool, hot, cute, whatever. I would like to grab a drink, get a coffee. Are you into that?” But if it’s a person who you’re not — well, I don’t know why you would ask a person that you’re not interested in if they’re flirting with you.

Drew: You should just let that be. Just let them deal with that in their own… You can send a seven minute voice memo that starts with like, “I’m just going to say my piece.”

Christina: And you should always be just saying your piece. It’s very dramatic and very fun.

Drew: I don’t, I still don’t know if it’s — is it P-E-A-C-E, or P-I-E-C-E?

Christina: I think it’s P-I-E-C-E, because it’s like your piece of—

Drew: Information. Like “I’m just going to say my peace.”

Christina: I’m just going to say my vibe.

Drew: I’m so glad I could learn that. I’ve actually been wondering that for about a year. Great. And then the last one is, is getting your friends with benefits latex free dental dams for graduation too much? Only you know your relationship with this friends with benefits. I think potentially no, if friends with benefits, you’re already having sex?

Christina: Right? I mean, I was just like, ooh, I have never in my life used a dental dam, so, God bless. I just was like, yeah, if you’re already having sex, I feel like go off.

Drew: Yeah. I never have either. But Ro wrote this really great piece for us recently about dental dams that was really informative and really changed my mind on a lot of things. But yeah, if that’s the sort of relationship you have, I don’t think it’s inherently too much, no. Thanks for all the questions! Okay, so this next one is from Saida.

Saida: Hey, besties, longtime listener here. I’m really curious what your thoughts are on lesbian cruising. Does it exist? Are there lesbians that cruise? Do you have any relevant experience you wanted to share? Let me know.

Christina: Well, I love this.

Drew: I love this too. So one of my best friends — Daniel, hi, how are you doing? — is a gay man and the stories that he tells of just being like, “Yeah, I was getting work done at a coffee shop and I made eye contact with someone and then we were fucking in the bathroom,” and I’m just like, what?! That’s crazy. How? What? So, is there a lesbian version of that? I mean, I hope somewhere in the world, I’ve never experienced that.

Christina: My gut says that there has to be, right? There has to be some sort of utopian zone where this happens in the world. I just refuse to believe that the world is as big as it is, and it happens to nowhere. That just seems like a bummer. But I do think, my gut says that it’s also probably more something that occurs in a formalized sex setting, like a sex party environment, or some sort of party that is not maybe explicitly a sex party, but everybody’s kind of got a vibe. I do know a few people who are always flagging out in the world, and I do feel like that is adjacent? But no, I’ve never in my life experienced, made eye contact with somebody and then two seconds later we’re fucking, and we don’t speak again. And that’s just over. I find that mind boggling. I find it inspirational, but I just can’t see it happening.

Drew: I also wonder if it would happen more in spaces where everyone — not everyone is queer — but you know, is it happening in a major city where there’s a major queer culture versus happening in places where queerness has to be a little bit more underground? I’d be curious where that would happen more, because I don’t know. It was interesting this summer, being in Covington, Kentucky, and the energy — I mean, I certainly did not make eye contact with someone and hook up — but it’s just being like, oh, there’s this bar that isn’t a lesbian bar, but people know about it and like going there and meeting people and we talked and had conversations first, so I wonder if that’s somewhere where that could manifest. I don’t have any personal experience to talk about this with confidence, but I do find it interesting, and if anyone else has these experiences, congratulations.

Christina: Also, where are you? Email us and tell us where you’re located. We’ll take a Wait, Is This a Date tour.

Drew: I think I’m always just so interested because, as we’ve evidenced on this podcast, I am more of the route of like: “Hi, so, I have feelings for you,” or, “I think you’re hot, and maybe we should hook up?” But very direct and awkward. I’m fascinated by the smoldering-eye-contact-to-fucking pipeline that I don’t know how that happens. That is such an interesting thing to me. I’ve never — I even struggle with that at dance parties, where people are like, oh, you’re dancing at a club. And then you make out with the person you’re dancing with. I’m like, but how? When? That’s not a thing that’s happened to me. Even when I’ve had hookups, like random hookups at bars or clubs or whatever, there’s definitely a period of time where we’re in line at the bathroom and are having a long chat. Maybe I’m a very verbal person? I don’t know, but I’m very interested in—

Christina: Maybe?! You said MAYBE I’m a very verbal person? Calm down. Calm down, Drew. No, I mean, I definitely have done the weird, you know, out dancing at a club and then we’re making out. That one feels pretty easy because dancing is pretty sexual. It just feels so—

Drew: Do you kiss them? Or they kiss — I mean, you’re very bottomy, so is it—

Christina: Thank you. I’ve done both.

Drew: So you’re dancing, you’re grinding. Interesting. And you just — this is where I don’t, I don’t know. I don’t know if it’s leftover shame stuff, but the idea of like — even someone is fully, like their crotch is in my crotch or in my butt, or my butt’s in their crotch. There’s definitely a sexier way to describe that. But like, even in that circumstance, the idea of then leaning over and starting to make out with them or leaning back and starting to make out with them, it feels so terrifying to me.

Christina: Yeah. I mean, in retrospect it feels like a wild thing that I’m like, I can’t believe I’ve done that. Like, what is, what, who was she? What a young spirit. But yeah, no, it didn’t. I mean, if it felt awkward in the moment, I suppose I wouldn’t have done it. So I guess I was feeling foot loose and fancy free.

Drew: Wow. I love that.

Christina: I said like a 95-year-old woman.

Drew: “Back in the thirties when I was doing this.” Okay, so this last question we got is a two-parter.

Christina: Do you want to read the first part and then I’ll read the second part?

Drew: Great.

“Dearest Christina and Drew, how do I start dating again after what feels like an eternity of avoiding it? I haven’t dated for three years and haven’t intentionally sought out dates in — well, I’m not even certain I’ve ever intentionally sought out dates before. I came out as a trans woman two years ago and made the conscious decision at that point to stop myself from passively and accidentally falling into relationships like I had been doing on and off since high school and through college. With the new and exciting feelings of all this gender business, I’ve been thinking that I might try to start dating again in the next few months, and I want to be intentional about it, but I’m really not sure where to start. Outside of work, I barely know anyone in the city I moved to just before the Panorama started. Do I just fire up one of the old dating apps? Do people just go to bars or whatever by themselves to try to meet people? I flirt with people on Twitter sometimes. Is that anything? Please send me your wisdom! From a lovelorned lesbian in Columbus.”

Drew: And then we got a follow up email:

Christina:

“Hi again, dearest Christina and Drew! I guess there are additional details to my question. Apparently Twitter is a dating app because a trans mutual on Twitter and I figured out we coincidentally live in the same town and she randomly asked me out after I sent this email???” Three question marks. “So I guess I’m officially dating again???” Three question marks. “We had a real Wait, Is This a Date? night where we watched punk lesbian anime and made out, but now she invited me over for dinner for a real date, TM, and I am 99% sure we’re going to fuck. My question now is when do I jump into the protection and sexual history question? We’ve been sexting, so do I toss it in there? Or do I wait until the moment where I’m at her place, and we’re about to fuck to ask if she sleeps around and if so regularly STI tests? Please help!”

Christina: Iconic.

Drew: I would like you to say that this one is signed off as—

Christina: “Love, an apparently T-for-T lesbian now. Incredible work.

Drew: Amazing. I’m so happy to hear this. Yes. Twitter is obviously a dating app. As far as the protection and STI testing stuff. That’s a personal thing for you, right? Like you can fully, ahead of time, ask for them to get tested before you have sex, or if you’re making out again, be like, “I want to get tested first.” And you can obviously ask for slash use whatever protection that you want during, and, you know, have that conversation with this person. I mean, for me personally, I take sort of a personal responsibility approach in the sense that I protect myself the way that I feel good about. And then there are things that I will do and not do with certain partners who I trust or don’t trust. To me, I’m not someone who would ever ask for an STI test, or ask someone’s sexual history in that way. That just, for me, doesn’t feel right. And I just would rather, if you know, I’m having an ongoing relationship with someone and want to do certain things, I just, it’s going to depend on a level of trust with that person.And then if they had something that they would tell me, they would tell me, or sometimes it’s something that they don’t need to tell me because they’re dealing with it and whatever. So I don’t know. I think my relationship to STIs in general is sort of one of letting it be on my partners to disclose. And I just go into every sexual encounter I have knowing the risks and then making choices about what acts to do and what not to do. But that’s a personal thing. That’s a personal thing for me.

Christina: Yeah, I think I’m pretty similar. If I’m having sex with a person, I will use the protection that I feel in that moment is the protection that works for me in that situation. But I’ve never had like a sit-down conversation about your sexual history and your other partners, that doesn’t necessarily seem like my business and not something that I would expect a partner to tell me all of their sexual partners. If we were having sex that was maybe less safe than I would incur, I would want to have that conversation, but I would be like, I’m going to protect myself very similar to Drew, I will be using the protection that I feel like we need in this moment. And then whatever you feel like disclosing past that is kind of your business. But I do think if this is a conversation that you like having with your sexual partners, you are in the space to do so. You’ve made out, you’re sexting. You’re going over for dinner. Now is the time I probably would do that conversation in person, perhaps at said dinner. But yeah, I think this is the space. This is the space to have that conversation.

Drew: Yeah, and it that means you don’t do certain things sexually the next time — like when you go to this real date, like, it sounds like this is going to be an ongoing thing. And it sounds really exciting. So the second real date to do certain sexual things that you both want to do together, that seems fine. But you can’t ask ahead of time if you want to, but yeah, it’s, I think this is sort of a personal thing, but you’re definitely in the space now, where you totally could.

Christina: You’re in a fun zone. You’re in the, we made out, we’re sexting. I’m going for dinner. This is the fun part. How fun!

Drew: I know, I’m so excited. I love it.

Christina: Have a damn ball.

Drew: I love the dates, like the first one was sent on November 8th and the second on November 17th. Incredible.

Christina: I think that’s beautiful.

Drew: An inspiring story for everyone else at home. Wow. Well, thank you all so much for these questions. We’re going to finish up with a little crush corner. Christina, do you have someone or should I go first?

Christina: You should go first.

Drew: Well, I have three crushes this week.

Christina: Wow!

Drew: That all worked on the same movie because it comes out this week. The movie is called The Novice. It is written and directed by Lauren Hadaway, and stars Isabelle Fuhrman and as her love interest, Dilone. And all three of them are hot and the movie is incredible and you should really, really go see this movie because all three of them are hot. And also because it’s an incredible movie and I don’t know why you would need more reasons than that.

Christina: That’s incredible. That’s beautiful stuff. I have realized, of course we are in the tail end of everyone’s favorite Sunday night HBO program, except for Drew, famously, Succession. And my crush, of course, is J. Smith-Cameron. She’s the lock screen of my iPad. I think Gerri’s really inspirational. I think, much like everybody else on Succession, she is the living worst, but she’s good at what she does. And I think that’s really beautiful, because I think if you’re going to be a terrible person, do it well. I don’t want to watch you be a terrible person badly. Commit to the bit or don’t. And I think that Gerri’s very good at being like, “yeah, no, I’m not going to get played because I’m fucking general counsel.” And I think it’s really inspirational and I hope she’s having a great time. I hope she’s having a great life being married to Kenneth Lonergan. I think they’re in Rome right now. They seem to be having a nice time. Go off, J.

Drew: I would like to clarify that I’ve never seen Succession, and that’s why it’s not my obsession. It could be great. I just haven’t seen it. I do love J. Smith-Cameron though, because I am a stand of Margaret and that is a great movie and she’s great in it.

Christina: She’s great.

Drew: So I support you in this crush.

Christina: Thank you so much. Well, that wraps up our mailbag, I guess. Thank you all for sending us such incredible voice memos and emails, and again, the ones that we didn’t talk about are mostly because we want to really dedicate a full episode with people who know more than we do. We know a lot, but we don’t know everything. So we’re making space for expertise in this moment. And I think that’s really important.

Drew: Slash, the ones that were just really nice and really nice to listen to. And you know, I love, I love a little bit of praise and a little bit of connecting with other queers across this internet space. It’s good times. And you know, we’re starting to have some conversations about the future, so this is not the last that you’ve heard, that you’ll hear from us — are those the words I’m trying to say here?

Christina: There it is.

Drew: And we’re really excited. So, have a great rest of your year, happy holidays, whatever that means to you and happy new year, whatever that means to you.

Christina: What else could “happy new year” mean, really?

Drew: I mean, sometimes New Year’s Eve is a rough night, you know?

Christina: It’s never been one of my favorite holidays. It does just always mean there’s gonna be a new year. There’s kind of no getting around it.

Drew: By this calendar, sure, but sometimes you maybe want to pretend like it’s not going to be a new, you know, or you want to just immediately be like, we’re already in 2022. I don’t want to reflect at all. And that’s your right.

Christina: That is. That’s very true.

Drew: So, see you in 2022!

Christina: Peace!

Drew: Thank you so much for listening to Wait, Is This a Date? You can find us on Twitter and Instagram @waitisthisadate and you can also email us at waitisthisadate@gmail.com.

Christina: Our theme is written by Lauren Klein. Our logo is by Maanya Dhar. And this podcast was edited, produced and mixed by Lauren Klein. You can find me online @C_GraceT on twitter.com, the website. And you can find me on Instagram @christina_gracet.

Drew: And you can find me on Twitter, Instagram, and TikTok @draw_gregory. And you can find Autostraddle on all social medias @autostraddle.

Christina: And go visit autostraddle.com because that’s the reason we’re all here today.

Drew, in a voice memo: Being in love is so embarrassing. I’m, like, excited for my girlfriend to meet my parents. Like actually excited. Gross

“Wait, Is This a Date?” Podcast Episode 110: It’s In the Stars (and Cards)

How could we talk about queer dating without talking about astrology and tarot? Whether you’re swapping charts with your crush or showing off your latest deck, astrology and tarot are often go-to spiritual practices for your average queer.

To talk about all things astrology and tarot, we have Autostraddle writer and professional tarot reader Meg Jones Wall of 3am.tarot. We get into their role in queer community and queer dating and then Meg reads Drew (that’s me) and Christina’s cards!

This very special episode of Wait, Is This a Date? is our season one finale! If you liked our first season leave us a review and we hope to be back with even more queer dating soon.

SHOW NOTES

+ This is our finale but we’ll be doing a special mail bag episode! So if you have any questions for Christina and I send us a voice memo under 30 seconds to waitisthisadate@gmail.com.

+ My best friend’s mom who does tarotpy is Lauren Schneider and here’s a link to her book.

+ Check out the site for Meg’s 3am.tarot!

+ My essay about Co-Star and sex and Fleabag).

+ The This Might Hurt tarot deck is currently out of stock but the next print is expected to be back this month! Also fun fact: in addition to being an incredible artist Isabella Rotman was also my roommate at A-Camp! They’re the best and I can’t wait to buy this deck when it’s back in stock!

+ Meg took a beautiful photo of the cards she pulled for Christina and I:

Six tarot cards from the This Might Hurt deck on a grey wood background: The World, Four of Cups, Page of Swords, Three of Swords, Two of Wands

+ If you’re not familiar with Hadestown, how about starting with the 2019 Tony’s performance?

+ And continuing the theatre love, here’s Shoshana Bean singing “Defying Gravity”?

+ All of Marlon Riggs’ films are available in the Criterion Collection!!

Meg: So the four of cups is kind of a card of emotional boundaries. And sometimes that can be a really good empowering thing. And sometimes it can be a sign that you might be holding back a little bit from being vulnerable, or… I know. I told you this is where it starts to get weird.

Christina: Come on! Wow. That is accurate and scathing. And I love it. I feel so alive.

Meg: That’s what I’m here for. It’s what I’m here for.

Drew: Hi, I’m Drew.

Christina: And I’m Christina.

Drew: And this is, Wait, Is This a Date?

Christina: Wait, Is This a Date? is an Autostraddle podcast dedicated to answering the age old question: wait, is this a date?

Drew: Can you believe that this is our season one finale? That this used to just be an idea that we had, and now it’s a podcast.

Christina: Not even a year ago was this an idea we had.

Drew: Yeah.

Christina: We’ve really kind of nailed it. I thought I was going to come up with some sort of fanfare like a musical interlude. It might be for the best that I didn’t, but I just want the listeners and you, I guess, to know that I have thought that at one moment.

Drew: Well, I would say that that’s a great reason to have a season two, would be for you to have time to come up with some musical interludes.

Christina: Yeah, I think moving forward, moving into a season two place, I’d like to also move into a more musical place.

Drew: I love that, which by the way, if you want a second season, you could like give us a review or not, but—

Christina: No, you have to review us.

Drew: Cool.

Christina: And it needs to be said that anything less than five stars is absolutely homophobic and you shouldn’t be doing that, so.

Drew: If you gave us four stars and had something that was really detailed and interesting to say in your review, I would take that and find that interesting.

Christina: I would not, I would take it as homophobia, so.

Drew: So there you go. That’s the difference between us.

Christina: There’s two types of people in this world.

Drew: Another thing is that, even though this is our last episode of the season, we are going to have a little special Q&A sort of episode. So send us your questions is what I’m saying and we would love to be sent, because we love voice memos here at Wait, Is This a Date?

Christina: Love them.

Drew: We would love to have it in the form of voice memos, but the shorter your voice memo, the more likely it is to be included in this episode. So Christina, what timeframe do you think?

Christina: I want you to give me a tight 30 seconds. I think you can do it. And I think it’s actually really good practice for a voice memo, as a person, to just learn how to get that information in-out 30 seconds, I believe in you all. And I trust that you can do it.

Drew: And send them to waitisthisadate@gmail.com.

Christina: Yep. Gmail. Don’t know if you’ve heard of it. It’s a cool website, email, domain place. Pretty tight. Have we introduced ourselves, question?

Drew: No. Oh, great point. Great point. Great point, no.

Christina: Just wanted to touch base with regard to that.

Drew: I mean, we’re pretty late in this. I just am like, people, I mean, I guess you could be starting. If you are starting on episode 10, my name is Drew Gregory. I’m a writer and now, I’m mixing up the different episodes. I’m a writer, I’m a trans woman, I’m a filmmaker. I’m a lesbian and queer person. And I guess I’m a podcaster.

Christina: You are babe, kind of definitively. Yeah.

Drew: Yeah.

Christina: I’m Christina Tucker. I’m also a writer at Autostraddle, loud homosexual on the internet. I don’t know, probably begging for some woman over 50 to run me over with a lawnmower, who can say what I’m up to on any given day. It’s usually that, it’s mostly that. We all know.

Drew: Yeah, it’s pretty much that.

Christina: Love to have a brand.

Drew: So today is a special episode and we are not playing a game because we have a special activity at the end of the episode. So instead we’re going to just get into our main topic, which is tarot and astrology and their places in queer community. Special guest, do you want to introduce yourself?

Meg: Sure. Hi, my name is Meg Jones Wall. I am also a writer at Autostraddle. Can you believe? And I run the @3am.tarot Instagram account, and I have a book on tarot coming out next year, which is amazing, so.

Christina: We came right to the professional, we said—

Meg: I figured I’d start professional because who knows where this is going to go. It might get really off the rail. So, we’re going to come in, we’re going to come in hot and we’re going to see what happens.

Drew: We love it.

Christina: Yeah. I think the listeners should know there’s some energy in this Zoom tonight.

Meg: Yeah, there’s some energy. There’s some things happening here.

Christina: There’s a vibe. It’s fun. I think it’s going to continue to be fun.

Drew: I think so. So what I want to know first is, Meg, what was your introduction to both tarot and astrology? When did they come into your life?

Meg: So astrology took a little bit longer. I think I was raised in this wildly homophobic, deeply conservative fundamentalist Christian situation. My parents are church planners. I got ministers on both sides of the family. There’s just a lot of Jesus happening over there. And I’m a Scorpio sun, so when I was starting reading astrology, it was death, sex, power, intensity, control, obsession. And I was, “I’m not allowed to think about those things. I’m just going to tuck that away in a little corner and never look at it again with my queerness and all this other shit.” And so I found tarot in 2016 after having left the church and come out and being in kind of a bad mental health place, I was like, “I don’t have a spiritual community. I don’t have a queer community. I’ve moved a bunch of times and left my physical community.” And so tarot was kind of the thing that I was, “Maybe this could be just mine. Maybe this could be a thing that is mine, that doesn’t belong to anyone else, that I didn’t learn from anyone else. It’s just a self-taught sprung-from-within-me sort of thing.” And so my interest in astrology kind of rekindled alongside that because when you read about one, especially tarot, because astrology’s just a million years old, but especially when you read about tarot, there’s a lot of intersection with other practices, and astrology is often the one that most often gets squished together with it. So it was hard to read about tarot and not find astrology things. And so I was kind of learning the practices side by side, but tarot very much felt something that was really intuitively… I don’t know, I was just really drawn to it. Astrology’s hard, y’all! Tarot, I was, “I can fuck with this. I think I can handle this. I’m not good at geometry, but I think I can handle tarot,” so.

Drew: Christina, what about you?

Christina: I was just trying to think about tarot, weirdly, if you can believe it, my mother introduced me to tarot. She had a light witch phase when she was in college, she was very much seeing Black Sabbath and Stevie Nicks and having a weird all-girl time. Go off, Mom.

Meg: Love it. Love to see it, honestly.

Christina: We love to see it. And I grew up in a very neoliberal hippie zone in upstate New York. So that vibe is very present in the one street that makes up downtown New Paltz, where I’m from. And so it was kind of just always something that you… The alt kids were always, little different. You’re not one of the popular kids? You’re into some sort of terror astrology moment? But I didn’t really seriously get into astrology, I feel like until… I don’t know a couple… Now it feels like, hasn’t it always been with me? Haven’t I always watched movie and been like, what is this actor’s birth chart though? Isn’t that how because that is genuinely what my housemates and I do every time we watch a film or a program. I don’t know, a couple years into the astrology game? I think at first I was, I get it. Similar to Meg, I get it. I’m a tourist. I’m lazy. And I like food.

Meg: Yeah.

Christina: True. I’m not saying it’s not true, but it’s not the energy I want to hear all the time.

Drew: Yeah.

Christina: So I do kind of love that this kind of astrology boom that I feel we’re in via social media has allowed us to have some fluency in other parts of the chart, I think is really important.

Meg: Yes, great.

Christina: I think that’s when I saw my full chart, I was like, “Oh, that makes so much more sense. I’m not just this one thing. I’m all these things.”

Meg: Contain multitudes.

Drew: Yeah, for sure.

Christina: What about you, Drew?

Drew: Yeah. Similar in the sense that, I think I’m a Capricorn, I know I’m a Capricorn, but I think my response to being a Capricorn was, “Oh, I’m boring and work hard.” And I was, “I’m not want to be boring. I do work hard though.” And then when I learned my whole chart, it was like, “Oh wow, this actually all makes total sense. And I am very much Capricorn, but I’m also these other things.” And then tarot, my best, best friend, met them when I was in elementary school, became close in high school, lived together in college, and when I lived in New York, and their mom is a therapist who does therapy through tarot. Her license plate is tarotpy.

Christina: Is she accepting clients?

Meg: That’s what I was going to say, that’s awesome.

Christina: What’s the deal? That’s so cool.

Drew: She just wrote a book. I’ll include her new book in the show notes. She just wrote a book. It’s Lauren Schneider.

Meg: Okay, okay, okay.

Drew: Shout out to Lauren. But yeah, but I think I also had this feeling before where I was, “This is your job.” I don’t want to be… I don’t want to ask, I don’t know. But then eventually I got over myself, and had a lot of talks with Lauren and at one point, some point in college, Lauren read my cards and that was the first time that, and actually she’s the only person who’s ever read my cards. And she’s only done it a couple times because again, I feel always like, that’s your job, I’m visiting your child, I don’t want to, or I’m visiting you, but I don’t know. Yeah. So that was my familiarity with tarot. And then all also with astrology though, I think, for me, it came out of dating. It was a thing where I was like, “Oh, this is how we flirt in queer women community.” This is… When I became single, I also became obsessed with astrology. And at first it started as a bit and then it became a thing where I was like, “Well, so many people I’ve dated have been Aquariuses, that can’t be a coincidence.” And then I just went deeper and deeper and it just kept making sense. And I think I still sort of fall somewhere in the, yeah, I don’t know. I’m not going to argue with you to tell you that it has to be quote unquote real, but I really enjoy it. I enjoy framing my life and yes, my viewing of different actors or whatever, and being like, “yeah, of course, Will Smith’s a Libra.” It’s great. I enjoy that.

Christina: Yeah.

Drew: But yeah, that’s sort of my journey.

Christina: Yeah. I think I wouldn’t be surprised if I thought about it harder but it would probably dovetail with my coming out and I was fluent in so many queer things already when I was a quote “heterosexual” unquote, but I do think astrology. I was, oh, I got to get up to snuff on this, right quick.

Drew: Meg, it’s really interesting that you’re talking about sort of leaving organized religion and then finding community in tarot and astrology because I do think that’s… If I was going to have a hypothesis and I’m certainly not the first person to ever say this, but that a lot of queer people do feel ostracized from organized religion, not everybody, but a lot do. But if you’re raised with that in your life and there is still a part of you that’s spiritual, it is a nice substitute. And it does feel — the same way that technically the United States of America doesn’t have a religion, in our… whatever, Constitution? Bill of Rights? Which one is it? I don’t know. But then obviously the United States of America is very Christian.

Meg: Yes.

Drew: That’s how I feel about queer women where it’s, we don’t… Astrology is our religion, you don’t have to like astrology, it’s fine. You’re allowed to still live in the country of queerness. But I do think it’s our official religion, if we were going to be unofficial about it.

Meg: Yeah. Even if you don’t believe in it, you’re still probably at an advantage if you’re fluent in it, because it’s such a language and it’s such a community thing that we all were just like, well, when in doubt, okay, well, what are your L Word signs? What are your Babysitter’s Club sign? We can just fuck around with that all day. It’s something to talk about, but it’s also a way of seeing the world and a really cool way of digging into archetypes and talking about signs and energies and the ways that we connect and the ways that we move through the world and process information. There’s so much in it, and yeah, it really does feel the unofficial religion of queer people.

Drew: I also feel I learn so much about someone by how they present their chart, right? You probably learn as much about me by me being like, I’m a Capricorn, but I’m also Leo rising in Sag Venus. You just learned a lot about me just then.

Meg: The fire jumps right out.

Drew: Right, yeah. Where I’m, no, no, I want you to know this. Even if you don’t believe in astrology. If you know enough to know what I was communicating there, I’m describing how I want you to see me.

Meg: Yes. Hundred percent.

Christina: Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. I think that, whenever I’m doing my, yeah, Taurus moon… Virgo, that whole performance of what your big three are, is so a part of the fluency in how you describe yourself. It’s very fascinating stuff.

Meg: It is.

Christina: A question I had for Meg was, as a person who’s come to this kind of hoping to use it in a way that replaces kind of that spirituality and that spiritual practice. Do you have a daily practice with tarot? Are you a person who draws a card every day? I have always wanted to be that kind of person, but much like being a journaler. I’m like, “oh, I forgot,” or “where are they?”

Meg: That’s such a mood. I’ve never been good at journaling. Before I start talking about my tarot practice, you should just know this about me. Across my life, I have bought so many beautiful journals and written approximately three entries in them. And then they’re just these lovely blank books with sad scribbles in the first few pages and nothing ever happens. Tarot is one of the most consistent practices I’ve ever been able to establish. And it was during my Saturn return that I picked them up. So go figure. But, yeah, I am a card a day person. It’s actually what my whole Instagram account really started as, because I’m also a photographer. And so I was, I’d really like a visual representation of the cards, but journaling didn’t feel like a thing that I should do. And now they have cute little stickers and there’s stuff you can do to make it a little bit easier. But it made sense to me to just start an Instagram account and snap photos of my daily cards and write a little bit about them and it turned into this giant thing. But yeah, I don’t do it every single day.

Christina: Sure.

Meg: Because now I have this Instagram account with 21,000 followers. It’s a thing. I try to not beat myself up if I don’t pull a card a day because it’s content versus my personal practice. I do try to still find ways of keeping lines between those things, which feels almost impossible, but I still try to do it.

Christina: Yeah. It’s actually the bravest thing you’ve said here in this podcast, trying to keep a line between what is personal, what’s content.

Meg: Honestly, who do I think I am? What is that?

Christina: The limit does not exist.

Meg: It does not, but we’re out here trying anyway. It’s 2021, everything’s on fire. What are we going to do? But yeah, I do really like the practice of drawing a card a day, because I feel even if I don’t have a particular question or concern or thing that I’m stressing about or wanting insight about, it’s still just a nice little moment for myself and in a world where most of what I’m doing get sent to other people or given to other people or is creating for other people, this is the moment for me to just be, okay, cool, what do I need to hear today? What do I need to think about today? What’s one thing that I should be paying more attention to? And it’s usually something really obvious, but that still feels nice. I’m like, okay, yeah.

Christina: Yeah. It feels external confirmation even though it’s coming from yourself in a way.

Meg: Yeah, exactly.

Christina: I don’t know.

Meg: It’s a weird thing.

Christina: Yeah. My friends and I are always, the thing about astrology is that it’s absolutely fake except that it’s incredibly real.

Meg: Yeah, a hundred percent.

Christina: That’s where we live and we love to live through that kind of tension. I think that’s what queerness is, kind of living in the moments of tension.

Meg: And making meaning out of it and then obsessing over it for five years. Yeah.

Christina: Yes. Exactly. Making meaning and/or content. Who’s to say which.

Meg: Monetize the tension. Let’s do it.

Christina: How do you guys think about using both Tarot and/or astrology — I feel like astrology and dating is more of the common thing, but I do feel like there is kind of that stereotype that you’re like, oh, this is a queer woman who’s like, “Oh, I won’t be dating this person because of like X sign.” And I feel like that is fun to joke about, but I feel like I’ve never actually seen that happen in life despite what the internet would have you believe. Drew has got a, quite a face on.

Meg: Yeah, you have a face. There’s something happening right now?

Drew: No, no, no. I think for myself, I would never, I work in the opposite direction. I’ll be like, oh, it’s funny. I’ve never dated this sign, now I know why. But if I met that Sun sign, I would never be like, “Oh, I can’t date you because you’re a redacted.” I just, I wouldn’t do that. That’s wild to me. I think it is funny to joke about, I think that I’ve, even though it hasn’t been that long that I’ve been astrology obsessed, I think I’ve been on my own journey of like, realizing that even some of the jokes were a little bit, that’s not — one it’s just, not that it’s disrespectful to those sun signs it’s more that it’s, I realized it was disrespectful to astrology. Where I just was like, this is like not really… as I got a deeper grasp of astrology, it was like, it’s a lot deeper than someone being a redacted. You know what I mean?

Christina: I love that you’re using redacted instead of even picking a sign.

Meg: I know. I’m like, we’re going to talk about this later.

Drew: I mean, people know, I will be more excited about people. I like to be positive. I’ll do it in the positive direction, even if it’s still a reduction or whatever, but I love an air sign, especially a Gemini or a Libra. I love a Sag, like I’ll be extra excited about those signs, but I would never cut someone off for being anything, any one sun sign.

Christina: Can you imagine? Can you imagine the marginalized identities of the zodiac?

Drew: Or even having a chart.

Meg: Poor Pisces, just there are certain signs that get so malaligned. And like, we’re all just out here doing our best, but yeah. I mean, I think that’s a good point. I mean, I’m not a professional astrologer, just cannot stress enough. I’m not a professional astrologer and I’m dating a professional astrologer. So I’m even more aware now that I’m super not a professional astrologer, but sun signs are just like the tip of the iceberg, especially when you’re talking about compatibility, it’s like, there’s Venus and Mars and moons, and Mercurys, and like laying needle charts across each other. And there’s just so much to look at. And so just being like, well, Pisces sun, fuck that. Sorry I’m using Pisces, but I just, it’s just the one that I hear about the most.

Drew: I don’t know how you knew what redacted was. That was really incredible mind reading.

Christina: I didn’t, but I have a number of friends that are Pisces suns that are always complaining about how they always get the short end of stick when it comes to things. And my big three are Scorpio, Leo, and Gemini. So like, I’m familiar with the…

Drew: Yeah. That also actually wasn’t what my redacted was, but just…. I’ll tell you later.

Christina: This is so exciting.

Meg: I know I can’t wait. You’re building tension for the end. I love it.

Drew: Yeah. I think it’s always interesting to me when I first was on Co-Star. And that was how a lot of the flirting was happening was like friending each other on Co-Star, which, I still have Co-Star in order to have access to my friends’ charts easy. But I hate it. I hate the — its descriptions of compatibility make no sense. And I took a little bit of pride in being like, oh, everyone who I’m into is exactly who they say I’m not supposed to be into. And like, fuck you stars. And it’s actually like, no, fuck you tech company that created Co-Star.

Meg: For sure. And just trying to make people mad because it makes clicks.

Drew: Yeah, I’m sure if I talked to a professional astrologer, they could explain why I’m more compatible with Libras and Geminis, even though I’m a Capricorn, but I no longer feel like I’m doing something against the stars. I’m like, no, I just have a whole chart. And that person has a whole chart and it’s complicated.

Meg: And also people are people.

Christina: Yeah. I also just love the energy of Drew being like, “I’m doing something against the stars today.”

Drew: A little rebels, sort of…

Christina: She’s just like not like other girls? I don’t know if you knew. Yeah. It’s just a little different.

Drew: I’m not like other Capricorns, for sure.

Meg: Not at all.

Christina: That. I do have a lot of Capricorns in my life, I feel, fellow earth signs, who I do dearly love, but I would say, Drew, you are not like the rest of them.

Drew: Oh well, that’s — I mean, I’d like to just be, I like that. Thank you. I love a lot of other Capricorns.

Meg: Capricorns are great.

Drew: I’ve never dated a Capricorn, though. I’ve never dated a Capricorn and I’ve never dated a Virgo and I’ve never even hooked up with either of those, and it’s interesting to me.

Christina: Keeping away from your earth signs.

Meg: It feels too close to home.

Christina: I mean, what are, but like we do have those, obviously Drew has redacted. So like we’re not going to focus on Drew, but like I do still have a gut reaction when, say, I meet someone who’s like, “I’m a Libra.” I’m like, “Oof, really? Okay, a choice.” And some people are Libras. That’s fine. That’s beautiful. But like, it is funny that as though I don’t necessarily and would not necessarily subscribe to it, it is still just like one of those moments where I’m like, “Oh right, which a Librass.”

Drew: It’s interesting because the two signs that I think I’m least likely to date — which I’m joking, redacted is Cancer, which I’m not. But it’s so many of my closest, like if I were to make a list of my closest friends, so many are Pisces and Cancers, and I’ve never dated Pisces or Cancers. And I think, in those friends, I see some of those energies, especially the people who have more than just their sun in those signs. I definitely can see the ways in which dating-wise we’re not compatible, but I don’t think that someone not being compatible with me also is like a judgment on them, which I think is interesting in the way people talk about astrology and compatibility. And astrology sometimes where I’m like, wait, the definition of compatibility. I mean, I don’t have the actual definition in front of me, but…

Christina: Oh, I was ready.

Meg: I was like, all right.

Drew: It’s all like, oh, you’re great. And this other person sucks. It is literally you are two individuals and or three or four or however many people are in your relationship that you’re testing compatibility with. And you’re not compatible. I’m defining the word with the word, but it’s not a value judgment. And all of my friends who are Pisces and Cancers are great partners to somebody, even if they haven’t been to me. And honestly, putting this officially on a podcast means that I’m absolutely going to have some long, meaningful relationship with the Pisces I deserve within the next five years.

Christina: 100 percent.

Meg: You’ve manifested it now. That’s how it works.

Christina: 100 percent.

Meg: 100 percent.

Drew: And I love that. I’m not, again, I’m not against that at all. Maybe they’ll teach me how to feel like…

Meg: Very nurturing. There’s a lot of good energy out there.

Christina: Sorry. I’m just not going to let Drew slide with someone teaching you how to have feelings. Come on now.

Meg: I know that’s a lot. There’s a lot to unpack there.

Christina: You’ve got so many feelings.

Drew: Well, no, wait, I have a lot of feelings intellectually. I don’t have a lot of feelings that I… I don’t remember the last time I cried. I don’t…

Christina: No, as we have, I think decided on this podcast, if you intellectualize a feeling, you don’t have to deal with it. It’s what science is. Hello.

Meg: Yes, that’s totally how it works. Absolutely.

Christina: Every therapist I’ve ever said has been like yeah, absolutely. Christina. You’re right.

Meg: It’s how to get around it. Yeah, for sure. Really good coping mechanism.

Christina: Nailed it.

Meg: But no, I mean, I think even just the way this conversation is flowing, like the fact that we’re talking about astrology rather than Tarot, I think just goes to show that like, I think that astrology is easier to talk about in terms of as a language. I think it’s more universally known amongst queers, but also people in general. I think Tarot feels more like, this is me looking at a particular moment or the way that you might look at the sky in a particular moment versus your natal charts. People don’t walk around being like, oh yeah, I’m a Death sign and a Strength, Moon, and a Lovers rising. I mean, maybe we should, because that would be really interesting. But — cause that sounds badass, that makes me sound really fucking cool. But in general we don’t talk about Tarot. I do think that it’s a language for connection that can be used for those kinds of things. But I don’t think as queer people in general, we talk about Tarot in the way that we talk about astrology, especially when it comes to compatibility. It’s just, it’s kind of its own little weird thing. I love it. But it’s a weird little thing.

Christina: Yeah, my silence, there was me trying to think of a smart segue to like, let’s move into like a Tarot space, that was not me just being like, Meg, what is Tarot though?

Meg: But, but explain this to me, but no. Because I mean, I do think that like you’re sitting in a bar, you’re not going to be like, “Hey, what card did you pull this morning?” Like, nobody’s going to say that as a, that is not a thing. Even people I know that read Tarot every day, I’m not going to ask them that like, versus what’s your sun sign or what’s your moon sign or whatever.

Drew: I would just like to put it out there that I was ever at a bar, and someone was like, I have Tarot cards with me and I’m going to pull a card for you. I’d be thrilled about that.

Meg: Oh yeah. It’s great.

Drew: I think part of it for me is that, okay, I’m going to admit something that’s very silly and maybe it’s not silly. You can tell me, this is a great moment to ask this question. And I know that I revealed that I have someone close to me who, Tarot is her life. And I haven’t brought this up, but a podcast is when is that this idea that like you are supposed to have your first Tarot deck purchased for you, or like gifted to you? I think whenever there were times where I was like, oh, I’d really love to like get into Tarot. And I was like, well, got to keep waiting, waiting until someone picks me. Someone ask me to the Prom. And so I think oftentimes I’ll go down a rabbit hole of an interest, like pretty randomly, something will be sort of hovering as something I want to get interested in. And then like, there’ll just be a moment where I’m minister and I’m like, I’m going to buy a book on this thing. And I learn about that thing. And I think with Tarot, I’ve always had this thing of being like, well, I can’t. Anytime I have that draw, I’m like, oh, I got to wait. I got to wait. Is that not a real thing? Or is it a real thing? And I have to keep waiting.

Meg: It’s a real myth that is perpetuated by people. It’s sort of a gatekeepy shitty thing that people do when they’re like, “yeah, you have to have somebody buy a deck for you. Sorry sweetie, can’t do it yourself.” Like no, fucking buy yourself a Tarot deck. If you want to identify that, it’s fine. Some of my decks now have been given to me because now I’ve reached the point in my career where a publicist sends me decks, which is really fancy and also means I have a lot of decks that I give away a lot. So then I give decks to people. But most of the decks I have, I bought. I bought my first like 10 decks. It’s fine. It’s not going to do anything. And like, I’ll just take the opportunity to say you don’t have to buy your first deck. You don’t have to store it in silk. You don’t have to, like, you don’t have to buy the Rider-Waite Smith deck first, if you don’t want to. You can do what the fuck you want, frankly.

Drew: I love that.

Meg: My one hard and fast rule is don’t use Tarot to manipulate people or scare people or tell them they’re cursed or whatever. Like don’t use it, don’t fuck with people. But other than that, you cannot use the deck wrong. I know. I’m so sorry. That might be really ruining someone’s day. But that’s the only hard and fast rule, like anything else, it’s a tool, like do what you want with it. It’s yours, it’s just paper and do what you want to do with it. And so, yeah.

Christina: Wow. That’s really beautiful. How do you think about Tarot in a dating sense? Like how does it factor into your romantic life? I know that you are famously in a relationship so we can move this from a dating space to being in a partner space also.

Meg: I mean, I think, I don’t tend to read for myself about romantic relationships because it’s too hard. I can’t be objective, and most professional readers that I know, but also just people that read consistently, often are similar. They’re just certain topics that are, it’s too hard to read with clarity. And so if I have a really sensitive situation or if I’m really stressed about something, I will ask either a friend or pay a professional to do a reading for me. I have not historically done many readings at all, either for myself or had someone else do them for me, around love. It’s not really something that I turned to the cards for, which is probably something I should unpack for myself. Because I really haven’t thought about that much. But in my partnership, my partner and I read cards for each other all the time. Sometimes we read cards together, like for different aspects of our relationship, which is really nice. But yeah, I read for clients about love sometimes, but I have a lot of rules about it, and I don’t read for myself about love. Because I can’t, I don’t think I have the capacity to read very clearly about it.

Christina: That makes sense. I think that is part of what the having a daily Tarot practice was a struggle for me. It was like, ooh, this is so much looking internally at myself. I would simply rather not do that at this moment in time.

Meg: It’s a whole lot. Yeah. And it’s why I don’t do it every day. That’s why I try not to get in my head about it, if I haven’t done it every day. It’s not like drinking water. I’m like, okay, I don’t actually need this to survive, if I take a day off, I’m going to make it. We’re going to be okay. But it is something that like, when I’m in a space for it or have a few minutes where I’m just like, I can’t something about this thing. Let’s pull a couple of cards about it. Like it can be a nice way to kind of be like, okay, I’m trying to do other things. And I’m in my head about this thing. And I’d rather just like, let’s just say, I’m going to take 10 minutes and think about it and pull some cards and actually do the thing. And then sometimes that helps me then compartmentalize and be like, cool. Okay. We have something, we’re just going to put that little box and I’m going to go do my shit. It can be helpful for that no matter what the topic is. I find it useful for things like that.

Drew: Are you able to share what your rules are when you’re reading cards for people about love and relationships?

Christina: That was also my question.

Meg: Yeah. I think they’re on my website. I should double check, but yeah, like most of the rules that I have about reading for other people are because of love questions specifically. And I think for most people in general, but especially for queer people, like I think we’re a little sensitive to rejection and we’re also like very, very, a lot of feelings. So I think it’s something that has to be done with a lot of care. Because I think there’s a lot of vulnerability to asking a stranger to look at your cards and talk to you about a situation that they’re not personally invested in. There’s a lot of power that comes with that. So a lot of my rules are around not overstepping or not inadvertently doing harm or giving someone false hope. It’s trying really hard to be like, okay, like here’s information. I would like this to be useful and empowering and not a thing that makes you spiral for the next two years. So my rules are usually tied in… Yeah. I think both of my rules are really tied to my beliefs about Tarot, which is mostly the, again, it’s a tool that you can use, generally for empowerment. I see the Tarot as being the most useful as the tool for self-reflection and self-exploration rather than predictions. I’m not a fortune teller and I’m not a psychic, I’m not a medium, I’m a girl that slowly and painfully taught herself to read these things. It’s not a gift. I didn’t pick them up and get struck by lightning. I spent years learning how to do it, not very well, it’s taken awhile. So I’m very much someone, I won’t read for questions like, when am I going to fall in love? Or when am I going to get married? Or when is my ex going to come back? If you’re asking, you probably already know, let’s be real. But whatever.

Christina: Ah, the big three.

Meg: The big three, you don’t leave. Actually probably would. But yeah. Yeah. So I don’t read predictive. I don’t read timings and there are ways of reading predicatively and there are absolutely ethical professionals that read timings. I’m just not one of them. It’s not something that I find super useful for me because I get all into freewill. And I was raised Calvinist, there’s a lot in there. We don’t have to go there, but it’s too much. So I don’t want the cards telling me that this is definitely going to happen or not happen, because that’ll affect my actions, that might affect my choices. I might not get myself to the place where that happens. And so I don’t want to do that to anybody else either. And yeah, the other thing, I don’t read for anyone that’s not present and consenting to the reading. So if you’re coming to me and you’re like, how does this person feel about me? I’m like, you should ask them because I’m not going to tell you. I don’t know, they’re not here. They’re not consenting.

Drew: We love direct communication.

Meg: Yeah. I’m like, I’m not going to read cards about someone else’s feelings and then tell you what they are. That feels wildly unethical to me. So that cuts out like 50%, probably more, of the people who want readings.

Drew: Yeah, I bet.

Meg: Because most people want to know, when am I going to fall in love or get married? Or how does this person feel about me? And I’m like, I don’t think the cards can — personally, in my practice, I don’t think the cards can answer those questions. So I’m not going to take your money.

Christina: I would feel more stressed out if I went to a Tarot reading and someone was like, in three years, that’s what’s going to happen. I’d be like, well, so what, I would just be on high alert for the next three years of my life.

Meg: Exactly. And you don’t know how that’s going to impact the things that you might do. If you’re like, oh, well, if I didn’t know that where I would be in three years might be really different than if I spend the next three years being like, well, if I’m going to get married in three years, then I got to do all this shit that I wanted to do before I get married. Like that’s just…

Drew: It’s basic time travel rules. You cannot change the…

Meg: Don’t fuck with the future. Don’t fuck with the past, don’t try to meet yourself. Like don’t, yeah, just leave it alone.

Drew: I mean that’s what bothered me about those first astrology apps I was on, like Co-Star, like the pattern where I just was like, this is hurting me. But I can feel, and I think people talked about it in the context of the daily Co-Star, the little thing.

Meg: The daily trolling that you sign up for.

Drew: That didn’t bother me, that I found funny and I actually still get them because I just find them hilarious. But it was more the thing where it would be like, I mean, I wrote an essay about this, about my relationship to Co-Star initially. And it being like, oh, “today is going to be a good day for you lovewise, this is a bad day for you workwise.” And it was influencing me in these really toxic ways. And I had to grow out of that. And I mean, part of going out of that was actually learning about astrology and actually dedicating a little bit of time to, and I’m certainly no expert, but just like actually spending time, understanding astrology itself and not just Co-Star. Because those are very different things.

Meg: They sure are.

Drew: And yeah, I don’t have an interest in any of these tools when used in that way.

Meg: Yeah. I just don’t find it empowering or constructive or motivating, you know? If you know for sure that something is, might fall into your lap, then you might not work towards it and then you might not actually get it. I don’t know. It’s weird. And I don’t want to fuck with that.

Christina: Yeah. Every time people do a screenshot tweet of their push notification from Co-Star, like “damn Co-Star keeps hurting my feelings.” I’m like, well you are a human being who could simply turn off a push notification. It’s actually so easy.

Meg: You fully opted into that lifestyle. You made that choice.

Christina: You have chosen to hurt your feelings for content, which absolutely respect it. But know that’s the game that you’re playing here.

Meg: Yeah. Yeah. This is a choice you continue to make and you don’t actually have to keep making that choice.

Drew: Okay. I did just think that if we get another season, I really love the Co-Star notification or text from my family member.

Meg: Oh, wow.

Drew: Just speaking of push notifications, you can get fun stuff.

Meg: Well I’m sweating a little bit now. Okay.

Drew: Maybe the same way queer people replace the religion their families taught them with astrology. They also replaced the criticisms they got from their family with criticisms from Co-Star.

Christina: And you got to get it from somewhere. You have to have it.

Meg: Yeah, truly, can’t live without it.

Christina: You simply can’t. Maybe that’s why my push notifications for Co-Star are off because I speak to my mother once a week. So there it is.

Drew: Do we want to pivot into…

Christina: Pivot? Our big pivot?

Drew: You’re going to give us each a little reading.

Meg: Yeah. I mean, I do want to ask you both, if you’ve ever had a Tarot reading about a love situation or relationship, or what your experiences are with readings around love?

Drew: My answer to that question is no, I’ve never had a specific, I’m trying to think of what I’ve had. I’ve only had two readings and I’m trying to think what they were about specifically. I think they were more general. And maybe a little bit more career focused.

Meg: Those are the two big ones. Love and money are usually what people want readings from.

Drew: Oh. And I had like a transition, like when one of the readings was like when I was pretty early in my transition.

Christina: Yeah. I was trying to think, I don’t know that I’ve had a professional Tarot card… just kidding, this memory just came rushing back to me. Me, freshly post being out, Salem, Massachusetts, an old man named Doug really dragged me to hell. I don’t honestly remember what he said in that Tarot reading, but I do remember leaving and being like, why did that man know so much about my life? Like what the hell? He had a gigantic walrus-esque mustache. He was actually an icon now, that I think back on it. God, I hope he’s well.

Meg: Yeah, he sounds fucking amazing.

Christina: Yeah. I hope he’s well.

Drew: How did you meet? Did he just walk out from an alley and be like…

Meg: I know. Did you go and pay him or did he just emerge?

Christina: I did. I went to Salem, Massachusetts. A place where you kind of are like, you have to do something vaguely witchy. And my friend and I were like, let’s go get Tarot readings. And I remember exiting Doug’s booth and being like, what? Now I need a drink. So yeah, that was the one time. I don’t remember what I asked. I think I was like, what am I vibing? And what are my vibes? Like in whatever colloquial language, 2015 Christina used. I have no idea what I asked him, but that is the one time I have professionally had a Tarot experience.

Meg: I mean, I’m glad it was in Salem. I lived on the north shore of Massachusetts for 10 years and I didn’t start reading Tarot until I’d left Massachusetts. But I worked in Salem on witchy things before I ever read Tarot. So it’s a little shocking that I’ve never done super witchy things. I’ve just gone to witchy shops, but.

Christina: It’s part of the journey.

Meg: Sounds great. Just don’t go in October. Yeah.

Christina: No, don’t.

Meg: Not in October.

Christina: Don’t go in October, too crowded, very small.

Meg: Terrible.

Christina: Now that we’ve got the relatives of geography of Salem, Massachusetts, out of the way, the thing that I know people come here for.

Meg: Oh yeah, for sure. Stop regionality. So who wants to go first? And how would we like to do this?

Christina: Well, I was going to ask you, actually, how you would like to do this, given that it’s famously your profession.

Meg: Famously professional. Yes. Well, cool. I think we keep them pretty tight, but I’ll do three card readings for each of you. And we can, generally, I love to do readings that don’t actually have spreads, but if you have a super specific reading, we can make up a spread together on the fly and then read about it. So it just kind of depends what your particular situation is, what you’re looking for, what you want insights on or what your questions are around. So if one of you wants to go first, we can start there. Otherwise we’ll go alphabetically.

Drew: I was like, oh, thinking about it in the love and relationship context because of this podcast. But also you’re the professional, whatever sort of reading that you want to give us, I’m on board.

Meg: Okay, cool. Yeah. I mean, for me it doesn’t have to be love and relationships. It can just be like, whatever’s on your mind. And if there’s something that you’ve been stressing about, if there’s a problem or decision you’ve been turning over in your mind or if there’s just something you’re like, I can’t figure this out. I can’t figure out what I’m feeling about this. Those are all pretty good. Those are things that Tarot was well equipped to navigate.

Christina: I’m seeing now I should have kind of come to this space maybe with some thoughts around those very, very good questions that I…

Meg: I can also just pull some cards for you and we can talk about them. If you don’t have a question, that’s completely fine. But I wanted to give you this space to have a question.

Christina: I love that, I love to be given space.

Drew: Is there anything, Christina, that we’ve discussed in these first 10 episodes that we feel like we should, not that we should come up with each other’s question, but just in thinking back to our own, I’m trying. That’s what I’m doing right now. It’s just thinking back to, and also thinking about what I want publicly.

Meg: Yeah. That’s the other piece.

Christina: Sure. That is the other piece, I suppose.

Meg: I will try not to drag you publicly on a podcast.

Drew: No, you can.

Christina: Yeah, I kind of signed up for it. We said let’s have a dating podcast.

Meg: I mean, respect.

Christina: Yeah. I don’t think I have any questions. So I’m happy to just go with a vibe moment. I’m just happy to vibe.

Meg: We’ll just go with the vibe.

Christina: Where are we at?

Meg: Have fun. Just have fun. All right. Well then I’ll start with you and then Drew, if you come up with something along the way. Cool. All right. Well, I am using the This Might Hurt deck by Isabella Rotman. She’s a genius and I love this deck. It’s based on the Rider-Waite Smith, but it’s queer and modern and delightful.

Christina: Hot. Same.

Meg: I know. Right? Queer and modern. We love to see it.

Christina: Yeah. I was going to ask, I think we should have a space for you to recommend some decks that you love for our listeners. Because I’m sure that people are going to be dying to hear more about Tarot, get into it, after this episode. Love the drama of a shuffling moment.

Meg: I know, shuffling on a podcast is really intense. Okay. So I want to talk first about the card that jumped out because to me cards don’t jump out for me very often. So when they do, I usually pay attention.

Christina: You telling me I’m special? Loving this already.

Meg: Yeah, you’re so special. And the card that jumped out is the World, which is awesome. The World is the final card in the Fool’s journey of the major Arcana. It is a card of completed evolution. There’s ways to see it, that are perfection and completeness, but that feels like way too much pressure. So I don’t usually read it that way. I instead read as a state of contentment, a state of feeling whole within yourself, at least in this particular moment, the World is the end of a journey, but it’s with a consciousness that a new journey will be beginning at some point. So it’s usually a call to celebrate where you are in this particular moment, to be really joyful and content and grateful for everything that you have. And also to be aware of when that sensation starts to shift and what that may be pushing you to evaluate or move towards or seek out next. But in general, this is a really beautiful card. It’s not a card that, at least for me, comes out very often because it is this completion, end of the journey, deep satisfaction, rich contentment, fullest version of the self kind of card. So it mostly just means you’re like a fucking super badass and you’re in a really good spot right now, which seems lovely.

Christina: I love compliments!

Meg: Love to see it. So the other two cards that then I drew for you, which then I would put less emphasis on because I drew them just in this context, since one did jump out is the Four of Cups and also the Page of Swords. So the Four of Cups is kind of a card of emotional boundaries. And sometimes that can be a really good empowering thing. And sometimes it can be a sign that you might be holding back a little bit from being vulnerable. Or…

Christina:Me?!

Meg: I told you, this is where it starts to get weird, but this can speak to being like, trying to distance yourself a little bit from community, not quite willing to share your full heart with someone or with a number of people. Sometimes that can be a really deliberate choice around healing. “Hey, I don’t want you to see me. I just need some time to heal and recover.” But other times it can be like this hand here, that’s extending out this cup to this girl is just fully not having it. It can mean that there might be people that are reaching out to you looking for a deeper connection, that you’re not as aware of, or you’re not giving as much energy towards. So that could just be something to watch out for, especially you’re in this world of place of completion and feeling whole within yourself. But that doesn’t necessarily mean that there aren’t people that would be interested in having a deeper relationship with you.

Christina: Wow. That is accurate and scathing. And I love it. I feel so alive.

Meg: That’s what I’m here for. That’s what I’m here for. And then the Page of Swords finally, Pages are the youngest card in their suits. And so they’re kind of students, they’re explorers. They are people that are kind of starting on a journey and the suit of swords is connected to the intellectual self. It’s the mind, it’s the element of air. And so the Page of Swords might mean that you are getting ready to explore a new course of study or a new intellectual topic. You’re wanting to learn about something or you’re interested in learning how to communicate, share, process, absorb information in a new way. So sometimes it means you have a lot of ideas and you’re trying to figure out what to do with them. And other times it means that you have received a new bit of information and you’re trying to figure out what you want to do with it. You’ve been handed a new sharp, shiny sword, and you’re like, what do I do with this? I want to do something with it. And you’re exploring possibilities. So this can be a part of intellectual curiosity, asking questions, learning something, and perhaps expanding your mind in a new and exciting way that leads you down some new cool pathways

Christina: That’s tight. So that feels very like, I mean the World part feels accurate, based on where I am with career stuff. Obviously I think anybody listening to this podcast is probably aware that I super don’t love being vulnerable. So that really tracks and yeah, like ideas, new information, this, yeah. I feel really held and seen by these cards today.

Meg: Love that. I love that. Good. That’s so good. I’m so glad.

Christina: Yay. That was really fun. That’s so good. Drew’s turn. Drew’s turn.

Drew: Yeah. Okay. So I don’t know if this is like a question per se, but it is just sort of a general topic, which is that, so I recently moved and I feel like my new living situation is sort of the most adult living situation in a way that I feel really good about. I also am in a new relationship. I also feel like I’m on the precipice of some things career wise. So there’s a lot of new stuff that’s theoretically all very good. And it, again, actually very good, but I do, because I’m an anxious person, I think with the changes and things, there is just a little bit of unsettledness of like, oh wow, all these things are happening that I’ve wanted for a long time. And ah!

Meg: Now it’s all happening.

Christina: Wait, your question is what’s going to go wrong. Is that your question?

Meg: Oh boy.

Drew: Well that I wouldn’t ask, because I’m not trying to hurt myself.

Meg: Yeah. Don’t do that to yourself. Let’s not do that.

Drew: The question isn’t what’s going to go wrong. The question is more like, how should I enter into these new spaces of my life? What should my energy be? What should my sense of self be?

Meg: Yeah. I like that. I think that’s a great question for the Tarot actually just in moving through all of these transitions and stepping into this kind of new phase, in so many different ways, like what are some things to know and to pay attention to, and to be aware of as you care for yourself and move through this in a place of self compassion and self love. That sound, that feel pretty good? I’m just going to shuffle for a minute.

Christina: Self love, feels good.

Meg: Self love. Okay. Okay. Okay. So I pulled three cards for you. As per usual, nothing came out. So I’m just going to read all of these cards, kind of with different weights and we’ll kind of see what feels generally like one card might resonate more than another, but I’m not going to try to figure that out along the way. I’m just going to read each of the cards in the order that they came out. So the first card is the Nine of Pentacles, which is a really beautiful moment of — Pentacles is tied to earth. So it’s career and finances, but it’s also like physical health. It’s also your sense of stability. And nine is a number of independence, it’s tied to the Hermit. So it’s very much like being self-contained in a really beautiful and holistic way. So the Nine of Pentacles is this period of deep satisfaction in everything that you’ve done individually yourself. Yes, there’s strong community behind you. Yes. You’ve been working really hard. You’ve had help along the way, but this is like you standing alone being like, “Fuck yeah, look at everything I’ve worked for. All the seeds that I’ve planted are growing and thriving. I have built this life for myself that is deeply satisfying, that cares for me, I’m in a position to be able to give back to people that I care about and I can care for myself in a way that’s really satisfying,” is the word I keep using, but it’s this really content, stable card. I don’t know if you can see her, but she’s just rocking out with this falcon in the field. It’s gorgeous. So that is the first card that came out. The second card that came out is really interesting, given what you were talking about. This is the Three of Swords. And again, swords, as we talked about before, tied to intellectual self, mental stuff, the mind and air. And with the Three of Swords, I know you can see this poor bird being stabbed through the heart with all of these. I love this card. I have this card tattooed on me. So I’m a big fan of the Three of Swords. But this card usually is about a truth that comes out in an unexpected way, and hurts us in a way that perhaps we weren’t expecting. And so to me, again, I don’t really read predictively. So what I’m actually reading from this card, what this card is telling me, is that you were preparing for this to happen. You were worried about this happening. You were bracing yourself against it happening, and it might be impacting the ways that you’re moving through the world, through your relationship, through where you are at now. You’re anticipating that this is going to happen, and it’s contributing to some of this anxiety that you’re feeling because you’re waiting for the other shoe to drop. You’re waiting for someone. This card sometimes is tied to betrayal or new information that harms you, like a fact coming out after the fact, that you’re like, “What the fuck? I didn’t know that. Everybody else knew that?” So to me, this speaks more of what you’re worried about rather than something that’s necessarily actually happening. Just because you were speaking of anxiety, and this is the card of anxiety.

Drew: Yeah. That’s really interesting.

Meg: Yeah. And then the last card is the Two of Wands, which wands are fire. Wands are the soul. They’re passion, enthusiasm. It’s heart desire and the things that really drive you forward and motivate your choices. And the Two of Wands is the card that comes after the big idea, but before you’re fully finished executing it. It’s a moment of you standing there with your, with your roadmap and being like, “Okay, I have all this energy. I have all these ideas. I have all these intentions. What am I actually going to be able to execute properly in a way that is satisfying to me and gets me where I want to go?” It’s the moment of making a plan. You’re like, “I have all this creative fire and energy and ideas. How am I going to make them actually happen instead of just running headlong with no plan and then running out of steam halfway through?” And so, given all of the changes that you’ve just made, to me, this speaks of a suggestion to maybe take stock of where you are. Take some time to be grateful. Don’t give into anxiety. And instead, think about what you really, long term, want to create. And how the moves that you’ve recently made, and also the things that you’re planning to do, are going to get you to the place that you want to be long term.

Drew: I love that. That’s so beautiful.

Meg: That’s what I see in these guys.

Christina: Oh, I love that.

Drew: Yeah, I really like the idea of looking at a “negative” card as not negative, but as an expression of anxieties and what the negativity that we are projecting onto the future, regardless of whether… Obviously, all futures hold negativity because life holds negativity. It happens sometimes. But I find it really interesting to think about it in that context.

Meg: Yeah. Part of the reason I like tarot, as opposed to Angel cards or Oracle cards or some of these other tools that only have positivity, is that I think there’s something, especially if you’re like in a shitty really place, something bad is happening or you’re really anxious or depressed or just dealing with something hard, having the cards be like, “Hey, you feel like shit. I see that. You feel like shit. I’m so sorry. Yeah. I see that. I recognize that. Here it is.” I don’t know. To me, there’s something really soothing about that. This is real.

Drew: Yeah.

Meg: This is a real thing that you were holding that is happening to you. And I recognize that. That’s what it feels like to me, is the tarot holding space for that in a really specific way that feels really deeply personal. And so when cards like that come forward, it depends on the context. And because this is a general spread, I get to do what I want because I’m the reader. But I think when cards like that come forward, it can be really healing. It’s like, “Hey, I’m acknowledging your anxiety. I acknowledge this sense of you perhaps bracing for something that you’re worried about.” But it’s not necessarily actually going to happen. It’s still present because the anxiety is present. But these other two cards are cards with stability and planning and dreaming of a really magical future.

Drew: Yeah.

Meg: Yeah.

Drew: And even when you’ve worked hard to get to a place of stability and a magical future, the past still is sometimes ringing in that ear of yours—

Meg: Sure does, yeah.

Drew: … with other things that have happened.

Meg: Trauma. Can you believe?

Christina: Can you believe?

Drew: What a concept! Well, thank you so much for doing those readings.

Meg: Oh, my pleasure. Thank you for letting me do it.

Christina: Yeah. That was really fun. It feels like a really good send off for this year.

Meg: I know.

Christina: First season.

Meg: I hope y’all are very proud of this show. It’s been really, really amazing to listen to. And you’ve had some really incredible episodes, and this has just been a really lovely thing. So I hope you’re both very happy.

Drew: Thanks so much.

Meg: And obviously you’re going to have another season, obviously.

Drew: I hope so. Let’s move on to Crush Corner.

Meg: Right, right, right.

Christina: Crush Corner.

Drew: Does everyone have a crush? Meg, do you want to start us off?

Meg: Sure. I hope it doesn’t feel like a cop out. It’s just all I can think about. I live in Brooklyn, so I was lucky enough to get to see live theater for the first time in two years. A couple weeks ago I saw Hadestown on Broadway. So my current crush is on the score of Hadestown and everyone involved in it. I can’t get the music out of my head. I’m obsessed. So that’s my crush, honestly, is music right now.

Christina: Yeah, that actually is… Yep. That’s perfect. And that actually really tracks with mine because I have been in what I’m going to call a Wicked K Hole on TikTok. I cannot get away from Wicked content on TikTok. I got Defying Gravity in German last night.

Meg: Oh!

Christina: We are in a space.

Meg: I feel like I should congratulate you. That really just seems like a really special place to be in on TikTok.

Christina: I said I’m a log off for the night right then. But in honor of that, my crush of the week is the Elphaba I saw when I saw Wicked in 2005, one Shoshana Bean. I think she should marry me. I think that would be cool. I think she’d have a good time. She has Jewish chaos, bi girl energy, which I really appreciate. And I would love her to marry me, and then sing me some songs at a time that she decides is appropriate.

Meg: I want this for you.

Drew: I think that’s what you deserve.

Christina: Thank you.

Meg: Absolutely.

Christina: Thank you so much. So that’s it from the theater report over here, I suppose. Over to you.

Meg: Go team.

Drew: Yeah, no theater crush for me. I wanted to end with a really, your crush, like horny crush. And I can’t because I’ve had such a profound artistic crush this week, and I have to talk about that because I just… And so the Criterion Channel, by the time this episode will be out, these films will not be on there, so I’m sorry. But all of Marlon Riggs’ films were on the Criterion Channel, and expired at the end of September. And I had only seen Tongues Untied. I saw it years and years ago and really loved it. And obviously, he’s this hugely important figure. But I hadn’t seen his other seven movies. And I watched all of them and re-watched Tongues Untied, and watched the intro, and watched the documentary on there about him, and watched the little group of shorts that were different filmmakers who were inspired by him. And it just was like a really meaningful four days. And all of that content, content, God, awful, all of that beautiful art is available in the Criterion Collection. If you’re a person who buys discs, you can still do that. And even though I watched them all before they expired off of the streaming channel, I am still going to now buy them so I can revisit them. And there’s more special features on the disc. So that’s also special. But yeah, it was a really powerful experience. And if you don’t know his work, you should see it.

Christina: And honestly, there’s nothing more Drew than being like, “I wanted to go horny, but I came in with meaningful, emotional connections to art.”

Drew: Yes.

Christina: That—

Meg: Here we all are.

Christina: Chef’s kiss, babe. Yeah.

Drew: Yep.

Christina: Yeah. Truly look at us.

Meg: Love it.

Christina: Well, Meg, this was literally so exciting and delightful. I’m so glad we got to have you. And we just have like one—

Meg: Thank you so much for having me.

Drew: Wait. Well, can you tell people where they can find your work?

Meg: Oh, sure. Yes. Yes, I can. So the easiest place to find me is at 3amtarot.com. I’m at @3am.tarot on Instagram. I’m @megjoneswall on the other thing, Twitter. And you can also find me on Autostraddle. I write all the tarotscopes and taro shit and sometimes TV shit.

Drew: Amazing.

Christina: We all contain multitudes.

Meg: I know. So many multitudes.

Drew: Okay. Now, Christina, you can shoot your shot.

Christina: Now I can shoot my shot and ask the question that’s been, I think, on everybody’s lips. And it was like, “Was this a date? Were we just on a date just now? Who can say. Can you answer this for us perhaps?”

Meg: We talked a lot of astrology.

Christina: Right.

Meg: And we talked a lot of compatibility, and I read your cards. So I think it might have been a date.

Christina: Think it might have been a date. Wow.

Drew: Wow. Amazing.

Christina: Huge! I love to end the season with a date. Go us!

Meg: Go team.

Drew: It’s really powerful. Thank you.

Meg: Thank you.

Drew: Thank you so much for listening to Wait, Is This a Date? You can find us on Twitter and Instagram @waitisthisadate and you can also email us at waitisthisadate@gmail.com.

Drew: And you can find me on Twitter, Instagram, and TikTok @draw_gregory. And you can find Autostraddle on all social medias @autostraddle.

Christina: And go visit autostraddle.com because that’s the reason we’re all here today.

Drew: Thank you all so much and see you next week.

Christina: Yeah. We’ll absolutely see you next week, and we can’t wait.

Drew: Yeah, and maybe next week will be a date.

Christina: Hey, maybe it will be. Wilder things have happened.

Drew: Except you know what? I also think it’s important to clarify to the listener that if you ask someone if something’s a date or not, you probably should take that as sort of a moving forward… I don’t think every time you see someone you should, that’s not really direct communication as much as it is, not really respecting someone’s boundaries. And we do like boundaries here at Wait, Is This a Date?

Christina: The gayest thing about this podcast is that the outro is a boundary.

Drew, in a voice memo: Look, I know we’re not supposed to give value judgements based on certain signs and sign combinations and stuff. And everyone’s an individual, and et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But I do think air, sun, earth rising, that is the best. That is the best person. Those are the best people. So that’s just how I feel.

“To L and Back” Podcast Episode 210: Last Call

Get on in here to listen to the last episode of To L and Back of the season! Last week I said that things were starting to get capital-S Serious and well, I wasn’t wrong. Relive the head-spinning relationship escalations of Tess/Shane and Alice/Tom! Yell with us about Finley’s intervention! And obviously, obviously, let’s all gasp together about that ending! And friends, because it is our final episode of the season, I will be honest and brave in this post and say: I did not dislike this episode as much as my pals Drew and Riese!

But more than anything I will be honest and say we’ve had such a blast recapping this often infuriating, always entertaining television program this season, and we hope you had a blast listening. If we made you laugh or cry or even just roll your eyes, please consider donating to the Autostraddle fundraiser! And let’s all keep our fingers crossed for another season, because as Riese says, even when we hate it…we love it!

SHOW NOTES

Riese’s recap for Episode 210
If anyone wants to brush up on the Ten Commandments and the films of the same title
Drew says Bette dating Pippa is like if she was dating writer/director Desiree Akhavan
The To L and Back episode recapping original L Word intervention episode “L’Ennui”
How the New York Times Bestseller list comes together, according to the New York Times
How to get a star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame, according to the Walk of Fame
Riese recommends this documentary on the Sackler family and their crimes
Drew has forced my hand and now I must share the essay I wrote on The Recovering and sobriety!
I am once again linking this essay about how Gen Q has previously mishandled sobriety storylines
Can you BELIEVE this timeline of Gen Q’s season 2 timeline that Riese put together? Her mind!!!

Drew: Hi, I’m Drew.

Analyssa: I’m Analyssa.

Riese: And I’m Riese.

Drew: And this is—

Drew, Riese, and Analyssa: To L and Back: Generation Q Edition.

Riese: The final chapter.

Drew: At least of Season 2, but maybe forever.

Riese: Yeah, it hasn’t been renewed yet.

Drew: But maybe by the time this episode comes out, it will have been.

Analyssa: And they’re really asking for that renewal at the end of this episode, aren’t they?

Riese: Yeah, they’re really submitting a strong bid to the people for a renewal of the series. But you know, like the 10th commandment, it is over for the season. Do you know what I mean?

Drew: Like there were 10 commandments, there are 10 episodes of the season.

Riese: Yeah. Exactly.

Analyssa: They could’ve named every episode after one of the commandments.

Riese: Exactly. They should have. And this one would have been, “Though shall not covet thy neighbor’s wife.”

Analyssa: That was a really good pull.

Riese: Oh my God, I’ve peaked, I’m done.

Analyssa: All I could think of was steal or lie, and I was like, well—

Riese: What’s the one that’s really weird and specific to the olden days?

Drew: I was just thinking, there are 10? Wow.

Analyssa: I tried to do this before because, Catholicism, I don’t know.

Riese: I’ll have to watch the film. Maybe I’m thinking of how there’s one of the Bill of Rights is weird. The one about how you shouldn’t be forced to have an army in your house.

Analyssa: How you can’t be forced to quarter a soldier. One of the 10 commandments was like, you can’t be forced to have God in your home, I guess. Yeah, there’s the one about false idols, which is always kind of interesting to me.

Riese: Oh, yeah. Maybe that’s… Yeah.

Analyssa: Which is kind of you actually can’t—

Riese: Kind of dated.

Analyssa: …have God in your home.

Drew: I have seen both 10 commandments movies, the silent one and the one from the 50s with Charlton Heston, so. Fun facts.

Riese: Wow. Well, I’ve seen a number of movies starring Kristen Stewart.

Drew: Well, that’s nice. And we’ve all seen this episode of Gen Q, which is episode 2:10, Last Call. It is directed by Marja-Lewis Ryan. It is written by Marja and Christina Brosman. Christina Brosman is a new writer on the season and is a new writer on television in general. Her previous credits are showrunner’s assistant on Girls and writer’s assistant on Camping. So this person is coming from Lena Dunham land, which I will present without comment.

Analyssa: Should we do it?

Drew: Yeah, let’s get into the episode.

Riese: Well, I’m already upset.

Drew: Because of the intervention?

Riese: An intervention is a last ditch, after someone has failed at sobriety multiple times. And the point of the intervention is for people to share specific details about how this person’s addiction has harmed them, which they refuse to do.

Analyssa: I want just upfront to say that I have decided to rebrand. I’m leading with love and light this episode. I was drinking a cookies and cream milkshake while I watched it.

Riese: That’s so nice.

Drew: Oo, that’s smart.

Analyssa: That kind of improved the experience. And I just feel ready, once again, to lead with love and light. I just wanted you to know that going in.

Drew: I’m going to still be an angry bitch.

Analyssa: And that’s totally fine. I think it will be good for all of our balances.

Riese: Yeah, I’m going to be leading with love and light, but I’m going to fail at it, and I’ve already failed.

Analyssa: No, I agree. It really genuinely does not make any sense. However, since I was, as aforementioned, leading with love and light, I have just simply decided that this is a story that they wanted to tell. I don’t understand why it’s happening, and I’ve simply decided to not think about it too much.

Riese: Okay. That’s going to be tough for the podcast.

Analyssa: So true. I’m just going to keep going. I have no thoughts.

Drew: That sounds so pleasant. Just like Alice brought a meat and cheese plate, and you’re just like, “Yeah, she did.”

Analyssa: She did. And I loved that. The thing about it is like, Riese, I think you said this in your recap, there’s so many ways for Finley to have realized that she has hit a bottom, that we haven’t seen a ton of on television that could have been really interesting and nuanced. She could have had to go to AA as a result of her drunk driving ticket or felony or misdemeanor, whatever the outcome of that was.

Riese: I think it was a misdemeanor.

Analyssa: I guess it is a misdemeanor, right?

Riese: Because she would’ve had bail if it had been a felony. Although maybe she did and they just left that out. And also it would have only been a felony if she’d breathed really, really, really, really high, because it would be her first offense and she didn’t injure anyone, so.

Analyssa: There are so many other ways for her to have realized that she does in fact have a problem and be kind of taken aback by that and knocked out of her seat. And instead, we’ve skipped, once again, like 16 steps, and we’re like, “The only way for an alcoholic to know that they’ve hit rock bottom is all their friends circle them up and tell them that,” which is just—

Riese: And it’s not going to work for Finley, because she’s just going to feel embarrassed. It’s also not going to work in so far as, again, you do an intervention when someone has failed at sobriety multiple times.

Analyssa: This was kind of the thing I was trying to get to with the Sophie big fight too, where I kept being like Finley’s just going to say, “What the fuck are you talking about?”

Riese: Yeah, “Like give me an example of what—”

Analyssa: This hasn’t been broached ever, except for in this drunk fight with Sophie, and that seems to be the extent of it. So to have someone walk into a room and be met with a lot of people who are like, “We’re really worried about you. We think that this is important for you to go off to an inpatient program,” is such a wild jump.

Riese: Leap.

Analyssa: Anyway, Alice did bring a meat and cheese plate, which I loved.

Riese: She also points … She’s like, “I’m just in my 20s.” Well, first of all, she says like, “It was just one night,” and then Micah is like, “It’s not just one night,” and I was like, “Oh really? Tell me more.” No. But she was like, “What about you guys in your 20s?” And she said that to Shane, and I was like, that’s not a bad point because what did Shane do for the entire original series every time she was upset? Alcohol and drugs. Cops had showed up, which is the sign of whether or not you’re an alcoholic, is that the cops are there, she would have been charged with a felony DUI. She did crash a car while drunk and on coke into a highway overpass and stumbled home with blood on her face.

Analyssa: Sophie says she thinks it feels fast, and I was like, I agree.

Riese: Yeah. Finally.

Analyssa: Here we are. Yes. Thank you.

Riese: But also, Alice being like—

Finley: I mean, what the fuck were your 20s like, dude?
Shane: No, don’t do that.
Alice: Mine were amazing.

Riese: So funny.

Analyssa: There are some really good lines in the last three episodes, where we’re like, “This doesn’t make any sense.” That’s true. They do get their little quips off, and good for them.

Drew: I really liked Finley saying—

Finley: Is there a German word for a surprise party with like, really bad vibes?

Drew: I enjoyed that line.

Analyssa: My note was, “the general word is intervention.” That is by definition a surprise party with horrible vibes.

Drew: Yeah. So Finley’s like, “I’m not going to this fancy rehab facility that Alice is going to pay for,” and is like, “Bye.”

Riese: Which I think is because of how it was broached more so than I think — because first of all, who wouldn’t go to a fancy… I mean, she’s basically sending her to a spa. Even if you weren’t addicted to anything, you would say yes, but she’s humiliated.

Drew: It doesn’t make any sense

Analyssa: You know who is not leading with love and light? All of these people in this room. There’s no attempt to explain why they’re worried about her. There’s no time to explain the—

Riese: Yeah, why are they worried about her? How has their drinking affected any of them?

Analyssa: What the scary nights are, why we’re doing this now.

Riese: What?

Analyssa: So of course she doesn’t want to go and she storms out.

Drew: Yeah. Then we go to Bette and Pippa in bed.

Analyssa: They’re deciding which rhinestone cowboy hats to wear to the CAC gala tonight.

Drew: And I at this point in my notes wrote, “Imagine if she chooses Tina, LMAO.”

Analyssa: I want these two women to be together in a big way, and that’s simply not what my future is. Even from this scene, you can tell.

Riese: When Pippa’s getting dressed and putting on her oversized flannel and fussing with her hair, she looked really cute.

Analyssa: She’s so beautiful.

Drew: I mean, I don’t want to be shallow, and I don’t want to be mean to Laurel Holloman or Tina, but it’s just—

Analyssa: Even not a comparison. She’s extremely beautiful. She’s emotionally—

Riese: Wildly talented.

Analyssa: Wildly talented. Bette has been obsessed with her for years. First of all, you’ve landed your biggest celebrity crush.

Drew: Like, what?

Analyssa: She’s emotionally available and competent.

Riese: This is it. This is the jackpot. You’ve hit it.

Analyssa: Also, remember this list that Bette had at the beginning of this season of all the qualities? We’ve done it. We checked them all.

Drew: Yeah. Imagine if I was dating Desiree Akhavan, and I was like, “You know what I’m going to do? Steal my ex from Rosie O’Donnell.” No, how thrilling? My ex is with Rosie O’Donnell and we get to all hang out and I’m dating Desiree Akhavan? That’d be amazing.

Riese: Yeah. That’s the dream right there. Also, Bette does something that I do all the time, which is, she tries to make a statement that she thinks will be cute to Pippa. She’s like, “I’d feel even better if you were there,” and then Pippa’s like, “Really?”

Analyssa: What does that mean? Say more.

Riese: And then I’m always like, “Oh, damn it. That’s not what I meant to say.” But she basically is like, “My instinct is that you still have feelings for Tina.” And you know what? Carrie has that same instinct, and also Drew has that same instinct.

Analyssa: And you know what they say about instincts, three instincts do not make a wrong.

Riese: Yeah, three instincts make one intervention, and everyone gets spa water. And that is the circle of life.

Analyssa: The other thing that happens here is that Bette takes a call from Tina, and Angie doesn’t want to go to Marcus’s funeral is what we learn.

Riese: Yeah, I don’t think she should have to go to his funeral.

Drew: I don’t think so either.

Analyssa: I also don’t think that. Speaking of Angie, I would like everyone to take a moment to welcome back to the stage caring, thoughtful girlfriend, Jordi.

Drew: Yes. Prom is over and she is back focused on being her actual character that was established in season one.

Analyssa: She’s attentive, she’s receptive.

Riese: She was just like a prom-zilla, right?

Analyssa: But she seems to have bounced back from losing prom incredibly fast.

Riese: Absolutely. Yeah. You have to bounce back from losing prom. Again, Drew bounced back from losing prom.

Drew: I did. And I really lost prom.

Analyssa: Yeah, you lost prom in total. We didn’t have prom queen campaigns at my high school. It was a write-in-ballot. Everyone was thought to—

Riese: Oh, ours was you pulled names out of a hat.

Drew: Oh, wow.

Analyssa: You went to such a strange school, I forget all the time. Angie is puttering around doing planning for some weekend trip where she wants to share a room with Jordi. Hello? And Kayla texted her saying that she wants to see her, and Angie is freaking out about whether she wants her to go to the funeral, and then Jordi comforts her. And as we’ve stated on this podcast, we love a hug between girlfriends.

Riese: A nice loving hug.

Drew: Jordi goes full Goodwill Hunting, and just keeps being like, “It’s not your fault. It’s not your fault. It’s not your fault.”

Analyssa: Speaking of girlfriends, Gigi and Dani both have some very high-necked blouses on.

Riese: Yeah, they look fantastic. They look like they’re about to go step on some girls on the internet.

Drew: Oh, I wish I was that girl on the internet.

Analyssa: God, I wish that were me. So they’re walking in for court. Although I did note that this was a little bit close to when Bette and Jodi matched that one episode, and so then I got a little nervous.

Riese: Yeah. The episode, the endless breakup.

Drew: Oh boy.

Analyssa: It wasn’t color scheme matching, but the necks on the blouses were just a little too close for comfort.

Riese: It was a little Romy and Michele.

Analyssa: Oh, that’s fun.

Riese: Apparently, Dani’s meeting Gigi’s family tonight, and that’s exciting. And then I guess Dani, she’s going to trial and someone walks by and is like, “Your dad is guilty,” or something.

Analyssa: And fully shoulder checks her. It’s very high school locker room.

Riese: What is her dad charged with?

Drew: Well, eventually we’ll find out that he’s killed a bunch of people.

Riese: Yeah. And this is not what they established in season one.

Drew: No. No. And there’s no talk at this point of any of the morality of any of it. So at this point, I’m like, what? I guess we’ll solve it somehow, sort of. I don’t understand what the show … If it is as bad as they then frame it to be, then Dani is terrible.

Riese: Yeah. Dani should not be—

Drew: For even considering going along with it. We’ll get to it, good for her, I guess, but like, what?

Riese: If this is what they were doing, why didn’t they tell a whistleblower story? That would’ve been so much more exciting. And they could’ve had a protest of 10 to 15 people with signs drawn, hand-drawn by Bette Porter with lots of colors.

Drew: Oh, which I realized when I was pulling the stills for socials, that the way they say the chant in the protests in the last episode is weird. They don’t do like, “Hey, hey, ho, ho,” they just go, “Hey, ho,” and the beat is off. Anyways, that’s not important, but—

Riese: It is. It is important.

Analyssa: Gigi has to do a quick emotional check-in because she has to do one of those before noon every day or she will wither up and die. I don’t know.

Drew: And I do love that for her.

Analyssa: And I thought it was very funny that Dani was like—

Dani: If I need anything, I’ll ask, ok?
Gigi: Ok.

Analyssa: Gigi has fully therapized her.

Drew: It’s beautiful.

Analyssa: And then Gigi does one of the things I really dislike on TV, but as Drew knows, I don’t talk to myself very frequently. Drew does. Sorry.

Drew: No, you can reveal that.

Analyssa: And I don’t love on TV when someone delivers a line that’s supposed to go to the person. Dani goes, “I’ll let you know if I need anything,” turns around and walks away. And she simply cannot hear Gigi at this point, and Gigi goes—

Gigi: I hope that’s true.

Analyssa: I don’t know why, it just bugs me.

Drew: I would do that.

Analyssa: I don’t think it’s how people speak.

Drew: I think I might. But you can be bothered by me.

Analyssa: Well, it wouldn’t bother me because I wouldn’t know that you were doing it.

Riese: You wouldn’t even know.

Drew: Right. Great point.

Riese: You guys could have had so many conversations that you don’t even know. Who knows what your relationship really is?

Analyssa: What pithy one-liners is Drew getting off when I go to my room.

Drew: I would only do it if it was like … I don’t know. It’s probably because I’ve watched so much television that there are things that people don’t do but now I do them because they’re on television.

Riese: I started talking to myself during the pandemic.

Analyssa: I make a lot of little noises.

Riese: Because I realized—

Analyssa: I’m like a “boop boop boop beep” kind of person, instead of an out loud vocal reactor.

Riese: I just realized I could be talking to myself, and why not?

Analyssa: Yeah. You can be your own best friend.

Riese: Sometimes I found now if I’m really upset at somebody, instead of actually telling them I’m upset about them, which would get us closer to solving the problem, I just talk to them all day out loud, alone, revising my monologue that I will deliver to them, but I don’t. Yeah, so that’s one way to really thrive.

Drew: Let me know how that works out for you.

Riese: Yeah, I’m doing actually fantastic. So then—

Drew: Speaking of people who are doing fantastic.

Riese: Bang, bang, bang, time.

Drew: Shane and Tess are fucking.

Analyssa: Getting it on.

Drew: And then Tess brings up Finley while they’re fucking, and that is a choice that I wouldn’t make.

Riese: She’s like, “We have to fire Finley because we’re enabling her by letting her work at the bar.” Tess is really sticking… Who Finley is, what Finley needs, that’s not relevant. What’s relevant is her preconceived notions about what a person needs to get better, and she is going to impose them on this situation regardless. And that is dedication.

Drew: It feels like the writers read a WikiHow article about your friend’s an alcoholic and have just been going from there.

Riese: They definitely didn’t read one called How To Do An Intervention, because if they had, they would’ve seen that they shouldn’t do one and that that wouldn’t apply to this situation.

Drew: Maybe they didn’t even read a WikiHow article, they just watched a bunch of movies where other people had not read WikiHow articles.

Riese: I honestly think they watched Intervention.

Drew: Oh no.

Riese: You know the TV show, Intervention?

Drew: Yeah.

Analyssa: Yeah, I know it. I was going to say, maybe they’ve watched the Intervention episode of Private Practice, but I actually think that’s a great episode, so I would never bring it up here in this context.

Riese: Another great intervention episode is “L’Ennui” from season one of The L Word, when they have an intervention with Tina and Bette about how boring they are.

Drew: Oh, that is a fun one.

Riese: I thought of that often during this episode and how fun that was.

Drew: You were like, “I wish I was watching that.”

Riese: So she literally interrupts Shane to talk about, which is awful. And then now that that’s already been ruined, then her mom calls and she says they need to hire a new GM. And then she’s moving to Las Vegas. They can do long distance. It seems like a good option.

Drew: Yeah, it seems like a great option.

Riese: Great option.

Analyssa: It’s a really short distance, by the way.

Drew: I’m in a long distance relationship right now. That person’s in another country.

Riese: I am too. My girlfriend lives in Santa Monica.

Drew: Exactly.

Analyssa: Santa Monica on a bad day is about as far from here as Vegas, I think.

Riese: It feels as far. It does feel as far as Vegas. And the other thing about Vegas is that, and I apologize to anyone who lives there, I will say I have been there like 20 times. I dated someone who was from there, so I’ve stayed there extensive periods of time, so I’m not speaking from ignorance. I would not want to live there really.

Drew: In Vegas?

Riese: Yeah.

Drew: Yeah, that’s fair. And I don’t imagine it would be a great place for Shane either.

Analyssa: More to the point, Shane owns a whole bar in Los Angeles. Physically—

Riese: Yeah. This is probably where a therapist is.

Analyssa: She owns a whole business. It’s not just like, “Oh, I could find another job.” What are we going to do with the bar?

Drew: Also, this is maybe callous, but where are we led to believe Tess’ mom is at as far as her health? Is she dying?

Analyssa: How long is this trip going to be? What is the—

Riese: And speaking of time, which we shouldn’t, because I have now analyzed the full scope of time on this series and it will be better if we just ignore it, Tess and Shane have been dating for, I don’t know, a week?

Analyssa: Yes. But you have to remember that they’ve been in love since the first moment they saw each other.

Riese: That’s true. So that was about two months ago.

Analyssa: Yeah.

Drew: Yeah. She says they can do long distance. She does ask Shane to go with her.

Riese: I would never do that, ever. I would never ask anyone to come with me.

Drew: I mean, if someone was my partner of four years, maybe.

Riese: Yeah, absolutely. But someone of two weeks?

Drew: That’s insane.

Riese: I would be like, this is definitely going to freak them out.

Analyssa: I feel embarrassed that I asked Drew and Alex to move in with me, and we’ve been friends for years.

Drew: I’m really glad you did.

Analyssa: I am too. But sometimes I’m like—

Drew: And it was also, I was looking for a place.

Analyssa: Right. There were reasons.

Drew: You didn’t ask me to move to Vegas with you. I would’ve said, no. Actually, I did have a new girlfriend ask me to move to Vegas with her, and I said, yes. And then I started having panics about it and was like, “I can’t do it.” And then I didn’t move to Vegas.

Analyssa: To Vegas specifically?

Drew: Yeah. Which is interesting. I can’t believe I didn’t think about that until this very moment. I’ve lived so much life.

Analyssa: I do think there’s a shared queer experience here of being asked to move somewhere or asking someone to move somewhere a little prematurely. Saying that gently because I’ve done it. Anyway, something I’ve never done is watch Great British Bake Off, but—

Drew: Oh, I have.

Analyssa: So is Alice.

Drew: Yes. Alice is doing a bit with Paul Hollywood. We don’t see Paul Hollywood, he does not make a cameo. That would’ve been very bizarre and fun.

Riese: Yeah, that would’ve been a funny… They didn’t have any cameos this season, really.

Drew: Not really.

Riese: Oh wait, they did. Lena Waithe.

Drew: We didn’t have any people being themselves like we did last year. We didn’t get to see Alice interview someone on her show except old lesbians, who might’ve been their real selves. We never settled that.

Riese: They weren’t.

Drew: They weren’t.

Riese: I found them in the casting call.

Drew: Oh wow.

Riese: So I don’t even know if they were gay.

Drew: Wow. Betrayal.

Analyssa: Alice comes off stage and is talking to Sophie about her last days on set and says that Sophie can stay at her place while she goes on her book tour. And Sophie’s like, “I’m not moving out. Why would I?”

Riese: What I like is no one ever answers these questions.

Drew: No, no.

Analyssa: What I like is that… No, what I don’t like is that Sophie should’ve just taken her up on that regardless.

Riese: Yeah.

Drew: Oh yeah.

Riese: Yeah.

Analyssa: You could go stay in Alice’s fancy house?

Riese: Bring Finley. Yeah.

Analyssa: Obviously.

Riese: Yeah. I would say yes, because I’d want to stay in her house, because it would be nice.

Analyssa: Right.

Riese: But also the other thing is that Sophie’s house is really nice too.

Drew: Yeah, that’s a good point.

Riese: Because it’s TV. That’s the problem. You can’t really offer this on TV, because people in TV live outside of their means.

Drew: Right.

Riese: That house that Sophie lives in where her and Micah are paying the rent for the whole thing?

Drew: No.

Riese: No.

Analyssa: Right.

Riese: That’s like a $5,000 a month house.

Analyssa: Yeah. But if my boss were going out of town for a book tour, and was like—

Riese: For 12 weeks.

Analyssa: “You could stay in my home,” I simply absolutely would.

Riese: Yeah. Well, Tom arrives with the magazine. He’s like…

Tom: Say hello to a cis man named Tom.

Riese: I thought that was funny.

Drew: Yeah. He’s very excited that he was written about in the press, and it’s cute.

Analyssa: And he’s glowing.

Drew: Yeah.

Riese: Yeah.

Analyssa: It’s very cute.

Drew: But then things go south, because Alice gets a bad review from the New York Times, and she decides to take that out on Tom, which sometimes you do that with the person who you’re dating, but again, they haven’t been dating long enough for you to do that. But again, I just, we’re going to keep it moving.

Riese: Yeah, we’re going to—

Drew: That’s the sort of thing where you would do that to someone who you’d been with for… I know he was her editor, so there’s also that, but I’m still just like, you just hooked up with your ex and it was this whole thing. Can you just try to be a little bit chill?

Analyssa: Be nice to him.

Drew: Yeah.

Analyssa: I thought it was a bit about his face was also very fun.

Riese: Yeah, that was funny.

Analyssa: He’s like, “What do you mean, ‘What do I look like?'”

Riese: Also, I liked that he reminded me of me in this thing, in that he didn’t realize Alice was actually mad at him at first. When she was like, “Who’s responsible for that?” And he’s like, “That would be me.” And then he slowly was like, “Oh, wait a second. She’s legitimately mad.” Yeah. Should we go to the shops?

Analyssa: Our queer elder trio are terrorizing a container store on the east side, I don’t know.

Riese: Another episode of “let’s project our own things onto everyone else’s things.”

Analyssa: Absolutely.

Riese: Bette literally tells Shane to move to Las Vegas, because when you find love like that, you shouldn’t let it go.

Analyssa: Hilariously, because I brought this up last episode, Bette has not given one piece of advice all season. In fact, people have directly asked her, and she’s like, “I simply couldn’t say.”

Riese: Yeah.

Analyssa: “I don’t have the answer for you.” I don’t think Shane even asked if she should move with Tess, and Bette was like, “I have an answer for you. Here’s what you should do.”

Drew: I mean, if my friend was dating Jamie Clayton—

Riese: Okay.

Drew: I might be like, “Yeah, you don’t want to… Yeah, you might do whatever you got to do.” But I do think they can just make long distance work.

Riese: Yeah, because it’s not like she’s moving there permanently.

Drew: Yeah.

Riese: And if she does then Shane can eventually move there.

Drew: Yeah, they can figure it out.

Analyssa: Right. There are some plans to be made in Los Angeles, with regard to, again, Dana’s bar.

Riese: Yeah. Owning a company is a lot of responsibility. You’re kind of stuck with it forever.

Drew: Also, Bette’s complaining about how Pippa thinks that she’s in love with Tina, and Alice… They’re sort of like…

Analyssa: Alice is like, “LOL, you are.”

Drew: Yeah.

Analyssa: “Sorry.” And they started going down this like questionnaire of, “Well, what if this happened? And what if Tina showed up, then what if…”

Drew: Shane shares that Carrie is having cold feet, which is… Whew, boy.

Riese: She’s like…

Shane: If Tina was to show up at your doorstep right now…
Bette: Well, I wouldn’t know, because I’m here with you.
Shane: And she says, “I’m in love with you. And I want to try again.” What do you say?
Alice: Oh my God, what would you say?
Bette: It’s a flawed premise.
Alice: Seriously?
Shane: Okay. You know what? I wasn’t going to say anything, but Bette, if you were having any doubts about Tina getting married—
Bette: I’m not having any doubts about Tina getting married.
Shane: Carrie is having cold feet.
Alice: Wait, what?
Bette: How do you know that?
Shane: All I’m saying is if there was ever a time to win her back, I think it’s now or never.

Riese: And then Bette is like, “Hmm.” And I’m like… “Mmm.”

Drew: I’ve never liked Tina more than when she’s with Carrie. Why are they… Why are they… Why?

Analyssa: Well, because.

Drew: Because of the people in our comments sections who are thrilled about it.

Riese: I mean, I’m not against Bette and Tina.

Drew: God, sometimes I forget our outer age difference.

Analyssa: Sorry, they’re shopping literally for Tina and Carrie’s wedding.

Drew: Yes.

Riese: Right. When is that happening?

Analyssa: When’s the wedding? How far away is it?

Riese: Palm Springs, apparently. But I don’t even know what day it is.

Drew: At least no one’s interrupting at the altar.

Riese: Right.

Drew: It could have been worse.

Analyssa: If you’re buying gifts, the venue has been reserved, there’s dates in mind. So this is a whole thing. I did think it was very funny that Shane called Alice’s show basically just bits. She’s like “You just do little goofs. You don’t really do anything.” And also I would like to ask how many blue suits that Alice owns?

Riese: She looks cute in this one.

Analyssa: This one is good.

Riese: I love it.

Analyssa: I liked the Dumb and Dumber suit also.

Riese: I like this one better.

Analyssa: You know what my favorite monochrome look of the season is? Remember when she was wearing that emerald green collared tank?

Riese: Oh yeah.

Analyssa: And the green pants?

Riese: Yeah.

Analyssa: I loved it.

Riese: Alice’s clothes this season have been so good.

Drew: Yeah.

Analyssa: Yes.

Riese: Then my whole mind is blown when we go to court. The smallest court for the biggest case I’ve ever seen.

Drew: Yeah. The witness says that Dani’s dad is responsible for the death of half a million Americans.

Analyssa: Directly responsible, because he knew that something was extra addictive, wherein extra—

Drew: Yeah.

Analyssa: And he actively covered it up.

Drew: And this is apparently the first time that Dani has ever heard about this, or even heard rumors about this, because she starts to have a bit of a panic attack.

Riese: But what was her dad even… Were the Sacklers arrested? Weren’t they just investigated and fined? I don’t think a Sackler is sitting in jail.

Drew: No.

Riese: They would be put on trial, and their punishment would be money. They’d have to give money.

Drew: Yeah.

Riese: Like the Sacklers have to give billions of dollars to rehabs.

Drew: Yeah. I don’t know enough about the Sacklers.

Riese: I have seen maybe five documentaries about the opioid crisis, and have read maybe five longform articles about it, for a total of maybe 25 hours of immersion in this topic. And I don’t understand where this family fits into the bigger narrative. Because apparently the Sacklers also exist in this world, but they’re also not mentioning Purdue Pharma, which manufactured it or anything. And I just can’t really figure out—

Drew: I think you might know more about the real life scenario than they do.

Riese: I actually would agree with you, because I… And actually, we still don’t really understand why was he arrested, why did he get to leave if he was arrested. Because he was saying the board lied to him about stuff. What does that have to do with anything? What was the FBI raiding his home over?

Drew: Yeah.

Riese: What does his company do? I thought they did real estate.

Drew: Yeah. I don’t—

Analyssa: I have no idea.

Drew: I have no idea, but I do know that finally Dani has understood that there are moral implications to people dying. And Gigi encourages Dani to leave, and the lawyer is like, “You can’t. That’s not how this works. You’ll be held in contempt of court.” And then instead of being like, “Well, okay. Dani, go on the stand and just plead the fifth.” Gigi’s like…

Gigi: I know it’s hard but just try to be a fucking human being for a second. Look at her. She needs time.
Lawyer: We don’t have time.
Gigi: That’s your fucking problem. Want to go?
Lawyer: Dani, you’ll be held in criminal contempt of court. They will find you.
Gigi: Go fuck yourself.

Analyssa: Now, I don’t know anything about the law, and I should be clear about that. But what I have done is watch a lot of Law & Order: SVU, and many other procedurals that have criminal trials in them.

Riese: Right.

Analyssa: Can you be held in contempt of court as a witness? Why would the court give a shit that Dani won’t be a character witness for her dad? They want to find him guilty. Ostensibly that’s not how the American legal system works, but like—

Drew: Yeah.

Analyssa: She’s a witness for the defense. The defense would just have a list of people that they’d be like, “These are the people who can say stuff about him.” And if they didn’t, they’d be like, “Okay, so you don’t have any people who can say nice stuff about you.”

Drew: Yeah, I do think you’re right. I do think you lose a… Sometimes there’ll be like, “We lost our star witness,” or whatever.

Riese: Right.

Drew: Yeah. Exactly. Dani’s the star character.

Riese: Because they’ll kill the star witness.

Drew: Yeah.

Riese: I think it would only apply if they were actually hoping to use Dani to incriminate her father.

Drew: Oh, I see.

Riese: Like if the prosecution was calling her. But they’re not.

Analyssa: She’s doing trial prep with her dad.

Drew: Right.

Riese: Yeah.

Analyssa: Okay. So anyway, I just feel like these people would not give a flying fuck if Dani goes up on the stage… The court itself would not care if Dani went up on stage and said, “Yes, my dad was a great dad,” or…

Drew: Also like, it could have been so much more… Okay. I’m aware that this is maybe corny, but this is a soap opera. I don’t understand why they didn’t take the opportunity to have Dani get on the stand, and have her little panic… Have the moment, she could have been on the stand. They could have been like, “Do you realize that your father killed half a million people?” And then she could have been like, it could have hit her and then she could have had this big, beautiful moment of realizing that she was wrong, and Bette was right, and that she has been bad, and blah, blah, blah. And she turns on her dad—

Riese: Yes.

Drew: It’s emotional, it’s dramatic, theater, drama, boom, boom. And then we can move on into her going to Gigi’s family, and having new family.

Riese: Yes.

Drew: Instead of this non-drama weird thing, and then what happens later.

Riese: Yeah, and again, the smallest courtroom I have ever seen for a case of this alleged possible nature.

Drew: I think I’m just so confused why they constantly are manufacturing drama, but not ever actually even utilizing what they manufactured.

Riese: Right. Exactly. Like the DUI.

Drew: Yeah.

Riese: They’re not using it at all.

Drew: Yeah.

Riese: At all. And I also don’t… Why even… The Kayla thing, or the Marcus Allenwood thing.

Drew: Yeah.

Riese: There are all of these opportunities to make things better. Was this all about COVID? Because other shows shot during COVID.

Analyssa: Correct.

Drew: I don’t think you can blame this on COVID.

Riese: You said, that’s such an obvious opportunity.

Analyssa: And that’s set in the same set.

Drew: It’s in the same set.

Analyssa: It’s not like that would have changed their production.

Riese: Yeah. This episode was 45 minutes long. They had at least, they could have pulled another 15 minutes.

Drew: I’ll let them off the hook for how small the courtroom is for COVID reasons, but there’s no reason you couldn’t have used that small courtroom better.

Analyssa: We do get to hear Gigi say, “Go fuck yourself.” Which I love.

Drew: Yes. It’s always enjoyable to see Gigi in like protector.

Analyssa: Because she loves—

Drew: …mama girlfriend mode.

Analyssa: Speaking of sort of protector mama girlfriend mode, Sophie and Finley are back at the house, and Finley is talking about her day. She got fired, and they of course start to fight about Finley drinking.

Riese: Because Finley’s going to make macaroni and cheese. And then they’re cute for a second. Sophie seems to… But then they kiss, and suddenly kissing is when she can smell the alcohol.

Drew: Yeah.

Analyssa: Well, and she spills something out of the pot, which I think is supposed to be like she’s maybe drunk, which is like, for us as clumsy people—

Riese: Yeah.

Analyssa: Sometimes we just knock shit over. I don’t know.

Riese: Right. Also this is the first time that they’ve introduced the possibility that Finley is secretly drinking during the day.

Drew: Yeah.

Analyssa: Right. Yeah. Sophie says she is going to leave, not permanently, but just has to get out of here because she’s stuck in this cycle with Finley, and it’s just too much. And I just think that this sudden escalation, it just makes it so much easier for someone who doesn’t drink during the day, or doesn’t pee in a hallway, or doesn’t XYZ that we’ve seen Finley do in only the last three episodes, watch this show and go, “Well, that’s an alcoholic, and so I have nothing to examine in my own life about alcohol.” Which is like, “Then why did we do this story?”

Drew: Right.

Analyssa: What is the point of alcoholism storylines on TV, if not to sort of try to get people, not all, to think that they’re alcoholics, but to start conversations and start thought processes. And this just makes it so easy for somebody to watch this and go, “Oh well, I’m nothing like that.”

Drew: Yeah.

Riese: And along those lines, they don’t draw a distinction, they still haven’t drawn a distinction between Finley’s drinking and anyone else’s drinking. And they’ve avoided many opportunities to do that. And this was so frustrating, because Finley was like, “I just have to do it my own way.” And Sophie’s like, “You’ve been doing it your way and you got a fucking DUI.” You actually don’t have to be an alcoholic to get a DUI.

Analyssa: Right.

Drew: Yeah.

Riese: If you’re a person of that size, you can have two drinks and you can get a DUI. That is not… They think it’s this bomb they’re dropping in the road. “Oh my God, a DUI! Oh my God, she’s an alcoholic!” But no, that’s not actually, it’s not doing what they think is going to do.

Drew: Yeah.

Riese: And I’m so confused why they introduced it, if not to get her into counseling, or to get her… She has fines to pay, she has probably a court date, she has a point on her license. These are all these repercussions, and I was annoyed to have to see them play out. But now I’m even more annoyed that instead of playing them out, that is seemingly gone. Just completely dropped.

Drew: She was fired by Tess and Shane—

Riese: Right.

Drew: And there’s no comment about, “You are in money problems right now, because of the DUI.”

Riese: Yeah.

Drew: This is the worst time for you to get fired. There’s no talk of that.

Riese: There’s still no recognition that this DUI was not solely her fault.

Drew: Yeah.

Analyssa: Or even as you said, you don’t have to be an alcoholic to get a DUI. Not solely for fault, but genuinely a mistake. The closest they get is when she says, “I had a really bad night.” And the answer to that is “No, you pretty consistently use alcohol in this way that is worrying to us.” But instead they’re like, “No, you got a DUI. What don’t you get about how that’s horrible?”

Riese: How about, “No, every time you’re sad you start drinking”?

Analyssa: Right. Or how about before you hooked up with Sophie, you had never had sober sex before. That kind of stuff is more indicative of a problem than just, “You had too many drinks, and we didn’t plan to take a Lyft, which was dumb.”

Riese: Right. And Sophie was even drunker than Finley was.

Analyssa: And in season one when Tess was sort of Finley’s buddy, and sort of taking care of her, but then of course, relapsed, which is also a mishandling of a situation on this show, it was getting towards a really nuanced, “What does it look like when someone drinks unhealthily and doesn’t really understand that,” because we think that’s how you’re supposed to drink in your twenties.

Riese: Right.

Analyssa: Finley saying that makes a lot of sense to me.

Drew: Yeah.

Riese: And why didn’t they have these conversations? Why did they make that DUI, what happened so ambiguous in terms of whose fault it was, or who’s… Not fault, but responsibility it was, if not to do anything with that. If just the next episode to have Sophie be like, “It’s a hundred percent on you, you have a problem, I don’t.” So we’re flinging back and forth between Sophie can’t find Finley, and people bringing alcohol to teenagers to drink before prom.

Drew: Right. And if it was being told more realistically, it would also be more interesting.

Riese: Right.

Drew: Like what I was saying last week of, artistically, it would be more interesting. Both, people would be able to find identification with it, and that could be really helpful. And also, in general, it just would be a better story.

Riese: Right.

Drew: It’d be better television. It’d be less predictable and make more sense. So it’s just like, I don’t get it. I don’t get it.

Riese: Yeah, and I feel like this… Because what you’re saying about how people could look at this and feel about it, that she says that they don’t take that time to actually address, no, this is actually what your problem is, not these weird things we’ve created for three episodes. The problems are all of these things that we observed as watchers of the show. But literally, we’ve observed and talked about it so much that I think sometimes I forget that the show hasn’t—

Drew: Right.

Analyssa: Yeah. The show doesn’t seem concerned at all with the fact that Finley has never had sober sex. They are like, “That’s totally fine.” What actually is bad, is that she got behind the wheel of a car one night. And to be clear, drunk driving, bad.

Riese: Is bad. No one… Yeah.

Analyssa: Is not the end all be all of Finley’s drinking problem.

Drew: Right.

Riese: Yeah. We’ve never even seen her drive drunk before.

Drew: Yeah.

Analyssa: She rides a Bird around, which you can get a DUI… Well, I don’t know about on a Bird in LA.

Riese: You can get a DUI on a bike.

Analyssa: But you can on a bike. Yeah, that’s what I was going to say. A scene that I did like this television program, is the next one, which is Kayla and Angie and Jordi meet up. They’re all swinging on a swing set, it’s very sweet. And Angie… This was actually, I felt, a really revealing line of dialogue about what she’s kind of going through. She doesn’t want Kayla to feel like she has to cater to her when Kayla’s dad just died. I thought that was really something.

Drew: Yeah. It is.

Analyssa: And Kayla wants Angie to know who he was, because she’s also lost a parent. It would be nice if his memory was… I don’t know, I just thought this was really lovely. And I did, against my own free will burst into tears when this list came out. Which is basically at the Memorial services, Kayla took Angie’s list of questions and asked all of her… I feel like I’m getting emotional right now, asked all of her family to answer them and reminisce on stuff. And I just think that’s really lovely.

Drew: Yeah, that was really beautiful.

Riese: That was nice.

Kayla: Your mom brought by the questions to the hospital, and I went around and had my family answer them.
Angie: Oh my God. Oh, you did not have to do that. Dude, thank you so much.
Kayla: People have the best stories.
Angie: Really?
Kayla: Yeah.
Jordi: Which one’s your favorite?

Analyssa: And I would’ve watched 15 more minutes of this than some other stuff that happens in this episode.

Drew: Yeah.

Riese: Like perhaps the next scene.

Drew: When Dani is waiting at her dad’s place, and he gets home. She’s like, “I’m sorry, I couldn’t take the stand.” And he’s like, “You’ll do it tomorrow.” And she’s like, “No.”

Analyssa: What I love about this is that she—

Riese: Is the details?

Analyssa: Nope. The details of her outfit are what I was going to say. She’s changed outfits from when she was at court, but she’s still in business attire. Still in slacks.

Riese: Yeah.

Analyssa: If I had gone home and changed out of my clothes from my fancy court clothes.

Riese: Yeah.

Analyssa: Maybe jeans.

Riese: Dani is either in running clothes or business casual.

Analyssa: I feel like this might’ve been a time that called for athleisure.

Riese: Yeah, you’re right.

Drew: Yeah. She says she can’t see her dad anymore. Is she going to apologize to Bette?

Analyssa: No idea.

Drew: Doesn’t happen in this episode.

Riese: It’s time for Alice’s goodbye party. And again, Alice’s dress is really cute, consistent with the theme this season of Alice wearing really cute outfits. And Tom is really rolling with the punches with this kid, you know?

Analyssa: It’s because she sent a bunch of lobster gummies to him, which I think is cute.

Riese: I hope they had weed in them. I wish there was…

Analyssa: 10 pounds is a lot of gummies to send.

Riese: Yeah.

Analyssa: But I think the idea is very funny.

Drew: Yeah, it is cute.

Analyssa: And Bette is trying to suss out the situation with Carrie and Bette also in the background of this scene.

Riese: Right.

Analyssa: But more importantly—

Riese: Alice is on the Bestseller list.

Analyssa: Did you know that the New York Times Best Seller list doesn’t actually count the number of books you’ve sold? There’s a whole ranking, weighted system.

Drew: I don’t know anything about it, and I was confused. I was like, “Wait, the book hasn’t come out yet. How’s it already on the Bestseller list? I don’t understand.”

Analyssa: It preferences pre-sales, and it does… There’s a bunch of different things that… I listened to a book presentation at work, from our books department. And there’s just a bunch of things that go into it, that are not just raw numbers, the book has sold more copies than everything else in America this week. Just in case anyone wanted to know.

Drew: I genuinely was like, “Ask question about…” Yeah.

Riese: Have you noticed that everything is on the New York Times Bestseller list.

Analyssa: Right.

Drew: Everything?

Riese: Yeah, every book I ever look at, it’s like, “New York Times Bestseller.” And I’m like, “How did all of you make it?”

Drew: How long’s the list?

Riese: 10 books per category each week.

Drew: How many categories are there?

Analyssa: Two.

Riese: No, there’s several.

Analyssa: Oh, I thought it was fiction and non-fiction.

Riese: Fiction and non-fiction. They also have graphic novels, or separate children’s YA.

Analyssa: That makes sense.

Riese: Mass market paperback, trade paperback, hard cover.

Analyssa: It’s very much like… You know how the Hollywood Walk of Fame is planned and purchased by representation of the talent who gets the star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame? That’s similar to the New York Times Bestseller list. I’m not saying any book could be a New York Times Bestseller, but there is some behind the scenes—

Drew: Got it.

Analyssa: …maneuvering it seems like. And positioning, and—

Drew: Yeah. That’s generally how things work.

Analyssa: Yeah, exactly.

Riese: Well, whatever it is, I’m sure that this show took the time to look into it, and make sure that this would make sense for Alice.

Drew: Yeah, absolutely.

Riese: So Tess comes in and Shane’s like, “Okay, let’s talk.” Shane’s like, “I have roots here.” And I am like, “What is happening?”

Analyssa: I do wonder about how she’s like, “I remember the first time I ever met you.” First of all, the first time they ever met was when Tess said “Girls like us.” And all of us were confused.

Riese: She was like, “Everyone knows you.”

Analyssa: Yes.

Drew: Shane said she can’t leave. Tess walks out crying. Shane follows, which I was excited about, because I was like, is she not going to say anything else? Is she going to let this conversation end? I don’t…

Riese: Why are they breaking up?

Drew: It makes no sense. So Shane runs after Tess and Tess is like, “I can’t believe this is what’s going to take us down after everything.” And I’m like—

Riese: After what?

Drew: Why? It doesn’t…

Analyssa: My note says, “Damn bro, Tess talking about this relationship like they’ve been going to war, what has been happening?”

Riese: And why is it ending?

Drew: It’s long distance. You’re lesbians.

Riese: Yeah. Again, my girlfriend lives in Santa Monica. You know how long it takes to get to Santa Monica?

Drew: You know how long it takes to get to Toronto?

Riese: Yeah.

Drew: Far.

Analyssa: Let’s go around and everybody brag about having a girlfriend. Okay, I get it. Fuck. She just said today that they could try long distance. This day.

Riese: This very day. Yeah.

Analyssa: Where has that gone?

Drew: I don’t know. Didn’t they say, “I love you.” And they kiss, so…

Riese: She says, “I’m in love with you.” As though that’s some new information. I swear, what’s happening? Did everyone stop trying? Come on. I know that these people who have these jobs are more talented than this episode or the last episode or the episode before that

Drew: I don’t… Yeah, what’s going on?

Riese: I was loving the first seven episodes of this season.

Analyssa: Even the first handful I was reading…

Riese: I enjoyed them.

Analyssa: I was rereading your recaps. I was looking at the post I posted and I was like, “Those were fun.”

Riese: Yeah, I was having a nice time.

Analyssa: They were more of what The L Word is normally, which is, this is frustrating because people aren’t like this in real life, but in a fun way, as opposed to a human person would never act in this manner.

Riese: Yeah. And is anyone paying attention? Are Micah and Maribel, who aren’t even in this episode, are they going to…

Drew: They sure aren’t.

Riese: Are they going to tell each other they love each other again? You don’t just walk outside and say, “I’m in love with you.” And that’s some follow up to why you’re breaking up, because you’re moving to Caesars’ Palace?

Drew: I don’t know. Speaking of things that are fucking maddening and shouldn’t be said on television. Bette goes up to Tina and Carrie and this starts off the main chaos of this episode which is that, Carrie leaves to go get drinks, Bette brings the…

Analyssa: Sorry. First Bette is nice to Carrie to get back in Tina’s good graces for this conversation. She’s the nicest she’s ever been to Carrie. Okay.

Drew: Correct. Now then Bette brings up Tina asking if Bette is still in love with her. And then Tina’s like, “I’m getting married.” And Bette’s like, “I just think we need to talk.” And Tina’s like, we don’t need to talk.

Analyssa: And I was like, “Yes. Go Tina!”

Drew: I was like, “Wow. Is Tina going to reject Bette?” I was very excited.

Analyssa: Boundaries. We love them.

Riese: Yeah, like when she rejected Bette for Henry.

Drew: Yeah, I know that. But I want her to be with Carrie. I didn’t want her to be with Henry. That’s the difference. And then Carrie comes back and is like…

Carrie: She’s in love with you. Haven’t I been saying that, Tina?
Tina: Yes, you have.
Carrie: Over and over.
Tina: But it doesn’t matter because I love you.
Carrie: You have no idea what it feels like to walk around trying to measure up to that woman.
Tina: No one expects you to measure up to her.
Carrie: Did you hear yourself?
Tina: What?
Carrie: Did you hear what you just said?
Tina: No, I just mean that I wouldn’t do that.
Carrie: Okay.
Tina: I don’t compare you and I would never do that.
Carrie: I got it.
Tina: Honey.
Carrie: Listen, I love you. I really do.
Tina: Let’s go home, Carrie.
Carrie: I can’t do this anymore, Tina. I really can’t. I’ve tried, Tina.

Riese: What did she hear?

Analyssa: I don’t know how much she heard, but she did have a stance of someone who’d been standing there for a long ass time.

Riese: I just want to say that I think it’s like a rule of, I don’t know, physics, algebra, geometry, something. If you’ve been together with somebody long enough to actually be engaged, your breakup is going to take a little bit longer than 10, 15 seconds.

Drew: I think maybe. But yeah. Tina yells at Bette. Pippa sees. It really couldn’t have gone worse.

Analyssa: Couldn’t have gone worse.

Drew: And I’m not just talking about the acting, I am talking about what’s on screen.

Analyssa: Tina delivers the line to Carrie, “No one expects you to measure up to her,” about Bette. Which is just…

Drew: Oof…

Analyssa: Devastating.

Riese: And then somehow Pippa just senses it.

Analyssa: Well, I think the idea is that she heard, one of… She can just see that this has caused chaos and she knows that the thing she thought was going to happen was going to happen.

Riese: I wrote this scene in fourth grade, is my feeling. The speed at which this all takes place and falls apart. Again, these are incredibly dramatic things happening that could have really been… I know that you would’ve hated it because no one here… But I want her to be with Pippa because Pippa is the better partner. I think it would be important and great for this show to actually have a Black character that is dating, who might be back for season three. That would be fantastic. But in terms of the Bette and Tina drama, I’m kind of always here for it. And I really think they could have… This is their core drama and this whole thing transpires in two minutes of nothingness.

Drew: Do you know what it reminds me of? It reminds me of Lez Girls. It reminds me of Jenny Schecter’s rewrites of the early L Word seasons.

Riese: Absolutely. Yeah.

Drew: In that, it’s bad.

Riese: Yeah. And again, this episode is the shortest episode we’ve had so far and…

Analyssa: It could have been longer. We could have had more conversation. I wasn’t as mad about… I was mad about the speed with which this happened. Again, please remember, leading with love and light, it’s new for me. No, but genuinely, I wasn’t mad about the dialogue. I was mad about how fast it happened, but I was like, “This feels chaotic and finally some good fucking food.” Was it really good? No. But was it like, “I’ve been kind of hungry for a while so this tastes really good.” Maybe.

Drew: With what’s been set up with Pip… With Bette and Pippa. I combined… I did their ship name. Their ship name.

Analyssa: Do they have a ship name?

Riese: Bippa. Yeah, I just created it.

Analyssa: It’s Bippa or Pit.

Riese: Pet?

Analyssa: Pet? Don’t like that either.

Riese: Bippa.

Drew: Okay. So what’s been set up with Bette and Pippa, it’s just to have Bette say to this person, “You’ve made me think about my queerness and my Blackness in ways that I never had before.” And then to be like, but actually we’re not going to get into any of our dynamic that’s going to be really rushed in this season and it’s mostly going to be around the fact that Dani’s dad is a bad person. And then I’m going to go back with Tina who didn’t want to have a Black child.

Analyssa: Speaking of things that were confusing.

Riese: Time.

Analyssa: Yep.

Riese: What… How…

Analyssa: Where is this underground party that Finley is attending?

Riese: They do nighttime B roll between the party and the next scene, which is in this rave or something. Cause you know how Finley is, always in the daytime going to these raves. And in a hoodie or a jacket. She’s overdressed for a rave. It’s too warm in there.

Analyssa: Remember that time, though, she wore two sweaters?

Riese: That’s true.

Analyssa: So maybe she runs cold?

Riese: She must run cold like you, unlike me and Drew, we would be sweating.

Analyssa: Sometimes I wore long sleeves and jeans to Gay Astrology.

Drew: That’s impressive.

Riese: So somehow it’s night…

Analyssa: But then Finley emerges into the daytime.

Drew: Well, I think the idea is that she’s been dancing at the club for… Is she doing coke? I don’t think with alcohol she’s going to be able to go all night that way. She needs to get some other drugs in her. She should have nothing in her except Sophie’s hands.

Riese: Let’s talk about poppers, a real issue in the community. First she’s having these Sophie flashbacks, which were cute, but also made me think, “You know what would be great? Is to have flashbacks of your problematic drinking behavior or something, where we’re actually seeing you connect these dots.” But okay. I love a highlight reel of my favorite ship that they have really, really, really done a number on.

Drew: Yeah. She stumbles out in what I assumed was the morning, but could just be this whole thing was in the daytime and then…

Riese: But could it be? Because why did they show night B roll right before it?

Drew: I assumed to establish that she was dancing all night long.

Analyssa: I would go to this underground party and dance all night long.

Riese: You would?

Analyssa: I would. Not right now. There’s a pandemic outside, but I would.

Riese: Okay, I admire you. Finley almost gets hit by a car and then I guess she dies.

Drew: They make it seem like she got hit by a car. And I was like, “Are you fucking kidding me?” And they were fucking kidding me, but in a weird, twisted way because… No. She’s at Sophie’s.

Riese: What… I said I wasn’t going to talk about time.

Drew: She says, she’s going to go to rehab. That’s what we get.

Analyssa: Has it been 24 hours since then, you think?

Riese: Also Finley said she’s sorry and Sophie’s like, “It’s too late for that.” And I’m like, “Is it? Why?”

Drew: I don’t even… I can’t even. Okay. So then, okay… Okay. God dammit. I forgot how annoyed I was.

Riese: My favorite part of this is that we cut directly from this conversation of Finley going to rehab, to shots. The next frame is everyone doing shots. And by the way, with the timeframe… I don’t have to get into this. With the time frame literally everyone in this show has been drinking every single day except for Bette.

Drew: Yeah. Okay. So Gigi is introducing Dani to her whole family.

Analyssa: She’s wearing a great outfit for that event.

Drew: And it’s so cute.

Riese: I’m so happy for Dani.

Drew: I’m so thrilled with where this was going. I was like, “Yes, this is great.” Because she left her dad and look, it’s really hard to cut off family. And especially when her dad’s really her only family she has. She just lost Sophie and Sophie’s family.

Riese: And he’s killed half a million people.

Drew: Yeah. But it’s just… I really liked the idea that now she is being brought into this new family. Is it crazy considering how long she’s been dating Gigi? Yes. Would anyone I’m dating ever meet my family within three months even of me dating them? Absolutely not.

Riese: Oh really? I would. I would do it earlier than that for sure.

Drew: Oh, wow. Well, we’re all different people and that’s beautiful. But I was still happy about this. Despite being complicit in the deaths of half a million people, I really like Dani and Gigi together. And I was like, “Oh, this is overwhelming and cute. And I like this.” I like that Dani isn’t evil anymore, and I can stand Gigi.

Analyssa: And Gigi notes that Dani is freaking out and handles it so quickly and in a very fun way. Like, “All right, now we’re just going to go have fun.”

Riese: Also, I think they’re all speaking in Farsi, which they’re like, “Finally, after Nat,” to have this girl who actually can talk to them in Farsi is probably really great. And it seems really wonderful and happy. Oh well.

Analyssa: Hope nothing happens to change that. Back at Bette’s, Bette is telling Angie that she’s going to skip the CAC Gala because… Well, she doesn’t say why, but it’s because Pippa is going to be there, just so everyone knows at home. And she says that she has something for Angie.

Riese: Yeah. I, again, cried.

Analyssa: Big. Also Jordan Hull just has a great face.

Drew: She’s such a good actor.

Riese: And this was really sweet. This was a really sweet scene. So Marcus did a painting that seems to be of Angie when she was a kid called, “Her.” And Angie tears up about it, I want to say. Anyway, it’s really touching and moving. So she tells her to go to the show tonight because we don’t know how much time we have left, which is like, “Okay, my God.”

Drew: Yeah. I was like, “Finally Beth’s comforting her daughter and being the parent.” And then I was like, “Oh nope, she’s back to comforting Bette.” They have a real Gilmore Girls thing going. Okay, so then Alice is on a plane with Tom. He goes to the bathroom, which I did really like this representation because I also need to… I pee before I board the plane.

Analyssa: Yeah. That’s what I was going to say. Would you get on the plane and immediately pee?

Drew: Yes, I have to, because I get anxious. I get anxious that I’m going to be trapped and have to pee and not be able to get up. And I don’t want to… because I can’t.

Riese: Even if you just peed in the airport? Which is the normal thing to do.

Drew: Yes. I’ll pee twice. I’m not mentally well. I didn’t say I was mentally well. But because if I’m at the window seat or the middle seat, I cannot ever ask someone to get up if — or they’re sleeping or who knows. I’m always very scared about being trapped and having to pee and having to hold it for six hours. And so I will pee in the airport, then boarding can take like 15 minutes and then I’ll pee again in the plane.

Riese: Wow. As soon as I get on the plane, I’m just praying to God I’m not going to have to pee in that console.

Analyssa: The number of times I’ve peed on a plane is so minimal because I just instantly fall asleep and I wake up when we are touching back down.

Drew: That’s beautiful.

Riese: I pee right before I get on the plane to avoid it. But anyways, so Tom…

Drew: Tom goes to pee and then Alice finds an engagement ring. But…

Analyssa: What?

Drew: I think, okay…

Riese: This to me was actually the most bananas part of the episode.

Drew: I think that it’s not an engagement ring.

Riese: Right. How could it be?

Drew: I think that it is Tom’s ex-wife’s… When did Tom and his ex-wife break up?

Analyssa: Why would I know that information?

Riese: He didn’t have an ex-wife. He had an ex-girlfriend who married his friend.

Drew: Oh right. I was really thinking, “It must be something else. It’s an old ring from someone else that was returned…” No, I guess he’s proposing. That’s bonkers.

Riese: They’ve been dating for three days.

Drew: She just had sex with Nat. It was a whole thing.

Analyssa: Sorry. What’s also bonkers is Alice goes, “Please be a pen, please be a pen, please be a pen.” And I would just like to ask… When have either of you ever used a pen that was shaped like an engagement ring box?

Drew: I think rich people have the longer boxes for pens.

Riese: Maybe she’s into minis.

Drew: She should have been like, “Please be earrings.”

Riese: This, I was just like, come on, come on, guys. I know everyone in the writers’ room was smarter than this. What were they doing? This is so silly.

Drew: It must be something else. I don’t know what.

Analyssa: They must be planning for something.

Drew: But it must be something else. It makes no sense if he’s proposing.

Riese: It doesn’t fit with his personality, doesn’t fit with their relationship.

Drew: What else could it be?

Riese: Because as soon as — I immediately told Gretchen about this… Because I was like, “You will not believe this most insane thing of this episode.” And I really was racking my brain for what it could possibly be. He got it for a friend? What?

Analyssa: It’s his emotional support engagement ring. Please, be respectful.

Riese: And if I were Alice and I saw that, I wouldn’t think he’s going to propose to me because it’s been three days. Actually I would think, “Oh my God, I’m on a whirlwind romance. He’s going to propose to me.”

Drew: Do you know what I would do? First of all, I wouldn’t…

Riese: You’d directly communicate about it?

Drew: But I wouldn’t look through… I wouldn’t reach into the pocket of… I would be like, “It’s not an engagement ring because we’ve been together for three days.” So I don’t need to know what’s in my very new significant other’s pocket.

Analyssa: I would reach into the pocket.

Drew: If I did see…

Analyssa: I’ll be honest on this pod. I would reach in… If I felt a box that seemed like an engagement ring, and he had told me to put his jacket in the thing, I…

Riese: Why is it in the pocket of his blazer?

Drew: But then what I would do. Also, yeah, putting it up there? That’s an expensive ring. Anyways, I would be like, “This fell out of your jacket.” You know what I mean? I would lie. So I’d either be very honest or not honest at all.

Analyssa: I would never confront him about it. I would just sit with the knowledge.

Drew: I would be like, “This fell out of your pocket.”

Riese: Ana would be asleep.

Analyssa: I would look at that and go, “Not my problem.”

Drew: I’d actually be the one in the bathroom. So it’s my ring.

Analyssa: Okay. So Drew has a ring to propose to me. I dig in the pocket of Drew’s jacket. Sorry, that’s just me being honest about who I am as a person, I look at it. I go, “That’s fucking weird.” Then I put it back. I sit down and I sleep for the next seven hours and see if he figures his shit out in the meantime.

Drew: Great. What’s happening next? Oh, Tess leaves Shane. That’s what I wrote in my notes. That can’t be right.

Riese: Yeah. She wakes up and she gets the call. Tess, I guess, she’s moving pretty fast.

Analyssa: She’s dipping out on Shane in the middle of the night. Shane is fully asleep.

Riese: And now we finally get back to the set of Shane’s apartment. Also is Tess subletting her apartment? Did she pack? What’s happening?

Drew: I don’t know.

Riese: How long has it been since they… What?

Drew: I don’t know. I don’t know. But then Sophie drops…

Riese: Finley off at a hotel.

Drew: So, Sophie drops Finley off at rehab and it is, I don’t know. I just…

Analyssa: Do you guys think… Just play along with me here… Do you think that at fancy rehabs, they still give those psych ward socks to people? Do you guys all know what those psych ward socks are when I say them?

Riese: Yeah. I’m familiar with the psych ward socks, yeah.

Analyssa: Do you think Finley gets a pair of those?

Riese: No.

Analyssa: Those are the nicest socks ever. Those are great to have.

Riese: I was like, “Why aren’t they kissing goodbye?”

Analyssa: Nothing.

Riese: Finley asks if Sophie will still be here and she says, “Yes.” And then Finley gets out and there’s some nice valet guy. Obviously they didn’t shoot this at a hotel because it is like the drop-off situation is established for multiple cars to be coming up.

Analyssa: It’s secluded.

Drew: I’m not super knowledgeable about this so correct me if I’m wrong. But why doesn’t she go to a meeting first? Why is she going to a fancy rehab facility first?

Riese: Yeah. That’s what we’ve been saying since the beginning.

Analyssa: No idea.

Drew: Okay.

Riese: Not even a meeting, she hasn’t even just said, “I’m going to not drink tomorrow” yet.

Drew: Right.

Riese: She hasn’t even done that. She hasn’t gotten a therapist.

Drew: Right.

Analyssa: She hasn’t talked to even one single person about this.

Riese: She hasn’t even talked to Sophie about it.

Drew: I get that Alice has money to throw around, but I don’t get it. It doesn’t seem like the move, which you’ve said extensively. I think when they pull up, I was especially like, “We’re just jumping right to it.” It wasn’t like, “Oh, I’ll go to rehab, but we’re going to see the steps in order to… Do I need rehab?” This was when I was like, “Oh, she’s just going to rehab.” The idea was she was going to leave that intervention and get in a car.

Riese: Yeah.

Drew: Which I think your point, that they’ve only watched the television show Intervention, is correct.

Riese: Right. And people on that show are on, I would say, a much more traditional rock bottom path than we have found here with Finley.

Analyssa: And I feel like interventions, conventionally, are supposed to be used as a last resort.

Riese: Yeah.

Drew: Right, right.

Riese: Literally, that’s the point is every other thing has failed.

Drew: Right.

Analyssa: Yeah.

Riese: And she hasn’t tried anything.

Drew: Okay.

Analyssa: No one’s tried anything around her.

Riese: There’s even medication that people can take to… There’s all these different things you can try before you go to rehab. But I think…

Analyssa: I might suggest, and this is not from personal experience, that she maybe try attending a 12 step meeting and see if she cries inconsolably the whole hour.

Riese: Yeah. She could read a book.

Analyssa: And that might do something for her. I don’t know.

Riese: Yeah.

Drew: I’m going to mention this on the podcast so you have to include it in the show notes, which is your essay about The Recovering by Leslie Jamison.

Riese: Yeah. She could read…

Analyssa: Try reading that, it might help.

Drew: Yeah. Yeah.

Riese: And if meetings aren’t for her, then there’s other things that she could find. There’s just all kinds of things that she could do.

Analyssa: Yeah. Also so many meetings are on Zoom now that the investment is so much lower than having Alice pay for this fancy rehab where…

Drew: To be fair, there wasn’t Zoom in this world.

Riese: Honestly, in real life, if this was real life…

Analyssa: I mean Zoom existed before the pandemic.

Drew: That’s true.

Riese: If this was real life the next day Tess would be like, “Hey, you prob…” Because first of all, Finley probably would’ve had to go to meetings, as part of her DUI thing.

Drew: Right, which would’ve been a better storyline.

Riese: And Tess would’ve been like, “Come with me.”

Drew: Right.

Riese: “I’m going to a meeting tonight. Come with me.” That’s literally exactly what would’ve happened.

Analyssa: I can’t believe that that didn’t happen in the first season when the opportunity presented itself.

Drew: Right.

Riese: Right.

Drew: Instead they said, “What if someone who is living soberly and trying to look out for another alcoholic relapsed?”

Riese: Yeah.

Analyssa: “And then we didn’t…”

Riese: And had sex with the alcoholic.

Analyssa: “And then we didn’t think about the baby alcoholic for six more episodes. And then next season, we bring it back.”

Drew: She had someone’s fiance to have sex with.

Riese: Tess didn’t go to rehab.

Drew: Yeah.

Analyssa: Nope.

Riese: And it’s great. Honestly, I would love to go to rehab. It seems really nice. Like the rehab that Alice described, they have a pool, they have a beach. You’re going to talk about yourself all day.

Drew: Yeah.

Riese: You get really nice food.

Analyssa: I bet instead oh psych word socks, they get like a fancy set of pajamas.

Riese: Yeah. She’s probably going to be walking around in cashmere. She’s going to meet celebrities. She’s going to have a great time. But yeah, no, this is definitely a pretty dramatic choice. Also when she’s like, “Will you be here when I get out?” How long is she going to be there? Maybe a week? It’s going to cost Alice like 50,000 bucks a day.

Drew: I have no idea. It makes no sense. I mean, it’s just so frustrating. Also frustrating is that, I was so happy that Dani and Gigi were just… I was so happy for them. And then Dani gets arrested for contempt of court.

Riese: Which is so embarrassing.

Drew: Which we already discussed doesn’t really make sense. And also, why did it have to… It’s just… why? Why?

Riese: It’s not like she’s a murderer. Do they really need to bust into…

Drew: No, it makes no sense.

Riese: The cops need to go get her at dinner? The show, first of all, loves the cops.

Drew: Yes.

Riese: And second of all, I hated this.

Drew: I hated it so much. It’s so stupid.

Analyssa: I did love Gigi arguing with the cops in the background? Because that’s just her whole deal.

Drew: It’s just so interesting to me because clearly… I get that they’re trying to have all the different characters end with some sort of big cliffhanger, except they’re not because Micah is not even in this episode. So if we can—

Riese: He was at the very beginning, he said to Finley, “It’s not one night.”

Drew: Oh right.

Riese: And then I was like, “Oh, what other nights was it?” And then no one said anything.

Drew: Right, I forgot about him being at the intervention. But we end Micah’s storyline with him, just I guess becoming a husband, and is happy and we don’t even get to spend time with his storyline in the finale because they don’t care about him, because they simply do not care about telling trans stories. But we can’t have one other storyline end somewhat happily, when she’s just had to confront the fact that her dad killed half a million people and never speak to her father again?

Riese: Yeah, and us too. We’ve just had to confront the fact that her dad—

Drew: Yeah, we can’t just have one couple… There’s enough other drama happening that is bad and manufactured. We can’t just have this couple just end with things being pretty good?

Analyssa: Nope.

Drew: It’s so boring.

Analyssa: That’s not how season finales work, Drew.

Drew: I know that but then do be more creative. If you have to have drama everywhere, then make drama everywhere.

Riese: I wanted a musical montage and in the musical montage in my mind, Tess and Finley are going to a meeting together.

Analyssa: Beautiful.

Riese: And Sophie’s at home writing in her diary or masturbating, and Micah and Maribel are—

Drew: Having a threesome with the hot doctor.

Riese: Having a threesome with the hot doctor from the LGBT Center and Dani and Gigi are just boning, raw boning after a nice night with the fam.

Drew: That sounds like a great montage. Wait, what song is it set to?

Riese: And Dani’s dad breaks the fourth wall, speaks directly to the camera and is like, “I know that you guys, first of all, don’t really understand my storyline and furthermore don’t care about it so I’m going to see myself out.”

Drew: Beautiful.

Riese: He got more screen time than Sophie’s wonderful family.

Drew: Yeah.

Analyssa: Wonderful surprise transphobic family.

Drew: He maybe got more screen time than Micah.

Analyssa: Okay, well here we are. We’ve arrived at the CAC and so has Pippa.

Riese: I love the red carpet at the art gallery opening.

Analyssa: Love the red carpet, love that Pippa arrives in a big car and there’s people interviewing her and taking photos of her.

Riese: And this was like, is it just you? And then she turns around as if Bette would—

Drew: Bette’s about to… Yeah, well because Bette is planning on going now, so her daughter’s advice really settled into her soul—

Analyssa: and she has this beautiful pair of wide leg pants that she would like to wear this evening.

Riese: Yeah, she has her own psych ward socks that she’s wearing covered in glitter.

Drew: But then she opens the door and who’s there but…

Tina: Hi.
Bette: What are you doing here?
Tina: Can I come in?

Riese: Tina!

Drew: Tina Canard.

Riese: Tiny Tina. It’s Tina.

Analyssa: Tina’s here.

Riese: That’s the episode. I knew she was going to be there.

Drew: And the squeals of Bettina shippers everywhere.

Riese: Lit up the night.

Analyssa: I’ll say it, I squealed a little bit. I’m upset—

Riese: I knew it was going to happen, but I was like, “Oh, you know what?” But I think a lot of that was driven by first of all, I want this show to get renewed because even though I hate it, I love it. Except for these last three episodes, I really have disliked. And I would say this was the second worst episode of the season.

Drew: Yeah, I think so. I would say these last three and the first one were far worse than the other six. I would say the first one was far better than these last three. And I would say that yeah, I agree with your order of these last three.

Riese: Yeah. This one is just, I mean the engagement ring.

Analyssa: But this one felt closer, I told drew this, I feel like I felt closer to being mad at The L Word in the way that I love to be mad at The L Word, versus thinking about whether I’m mad at the writers of The L Word. You know what I mean?

Riese: I am actually I think mad at that writer.

Drew: I don’t know. I mean, if the show gets renewed… Okay.

Riese: I hope everyone had a nice time listening to us complain.

Drew: I mean if they would—

Riese: You can look forward to our spinoff podcast which is just about Finley.

Drew: We wouldn’t complain if it was better.

Riese: Right, I want to like it!

Drew: Do you remember the karaoke episode? Even I loved it!

Riese: Spreading love and light over here.

Analyssa: I really tried. Do you think they did any better? I don’t. Yeah, I want to be excited about watching this show. I want to love this show. Are people watching it? I feel like general sentiment has been with us, right?

Drew: Yeah.

Analyssa: Like in the comments of your recaps and stuff.

Riese: Yeah. I think there was one person who was really mad and so they didn’t want to listen to the podcast anymore.

Drew: Yeah, which is fine, you don’t have to…

Analyssa: We’ve got a couple of those.

Drew: The great thing about podcasts and — what I will say is I’m a bit of a hypocrite, because I was about to say the great thing about podcasts is you don’t have to listen to them. But the great thing about television shows is you don’t have to watch them. But I don’t know. I mean, it will depend on a lot of things. I think it will depend on what the writer’s room looks like. I just, I can’t do this again. I can’t. It is painful for me. It makes me feel the way that watching the documentary Disclosure made me feel. Living in that head space or watching and writing about Silence Of The Lambs. These things that are these heavy representational failures, that are artistic failures, that are moral failures, and just make me feel bad about myself and about my community. And I love The L Word, I love the original show. There’s so much stuff that is cringe inducing, but the first four seasons, which I think we all know are not perfect by any means, I still love them.

Riese: Season three was really bad.

Drew: I like season three more than season five, which I know is a big disagreement that we have.

Riese: Yeah, that’s incorrect.

Drew: Which is fine, we can all have our opinions. But I think I’m really not that harsh… I’m not the kind of person who is like, “Oh, this is transphobic And I hate it and I…” I am someone who’s like, art’s complicated, things don’t have to be perfect, live in the complexity, but the last three episodes were not fun. I don’t enjoy getting on this podcast and bitching about it and so I might just give the show back to the cis white lesbians and move on with my life.

Riese: Yeah. I think that my feelings about the show are very tied up in the fact that every week I have to spend… This might be a good moment to talk about our fundraiser at Autostraddle. Which is that every week I have to spend about a full-time amount of hours on the show when it comes to the recapping, the screen caps. Writing the recap takes approximately forever. And then there is also the podcast and watching and listening to edits and all that stuff. The amount of time I have to spend with each episode is extensive and so that’s why when it’s not a good episode, I get more upset than a normal person probably would because I just feel annoyed that I have to… I was enjoying recapping it a lot more before when I was talking about the story and the characters. And I do feel like in terms of picking this certain thing with Finley, that it was like, first of all, how dare you? I was really unhappy with the stories that they chose.

Analyssa: Yeah. For us as lesbians, I feel sad.

Riese: Yeah.

Analyssa: Right, for Riese, you can’t just watch the episode and be like, “Ugh, what a bad episode of TV,” and just move on with your life the way you could about some other show that you watch. I’m one of those little mice that presses the lever to get the bad drug. I will watch a bad show just for two hot people kissing and that makes me happy, or there’s some campy dialogue and that is fun, or someone throws a drink in someone’s face. I’ve watched my fair share of bad television that I had fun watching, and I just want this to be that. I want to be having fun. And I think it’s hard too to be doing… I don’t want to be like, “It’s so hard to do this podcast,” because it’s not, it’s very fun to talk with my friends and to talk to my friends who are listening. I love that part of it, but it’s tough to not even have the built-in nostalgia factor of the original L Word. This is happening in real time to me as a person. I’m watching it unfold in real time and having real emotions about it, versus re-watching something which I’ve already emoted about and now I’m talking about what that felt like or whatever.

Drew: I mean, something that I will say is that I think oftentimes when we talk about media and representation in media, we frame things in this way that is linear and therefore we’re like, “Oh well we’ll excuse things in 2006 that we won’t excuse now.” And I do think that it would be helpful if we didn’t do that because I think so often it’s a lot more complicated than that, and I think this feeling of, “Well they should know better now,” they should and also there has been media that has been better than this. Maybe it wasn’t on Showtime, but there are aspects of the original L Word that I think have better trans representation than the current iteration of The L Word. And it’s different. The problems are different but I think it’s important to be able to talk about… I don’t know. I mean, and that’s why I like doing this podcast because I do think that we both can have fun and critique and I love—

Analyssa: I thought you were saying we both as in two people in this room and I was like, “Who did Drew—”

Riese: Yeah, me too I was like, “I wonder who it is.”

Drew: No, all of us can both. But I don’t know, I’m losing hope that this franchise is ever going to really grow.

Analyssa: Okay. I love to call it a franchise if you were doing an outward spinoff, not The Farm which already existed and not Gen Q which is in fact kind of a spinoff.

Riese: I really think Gen Q has potential.

Analyssa: I do too.

Drew: Of course, but it had potential last year and then this fell apart.

Riese: But I do like these characters and I do think they were doing a really good job and I really just don’t understand what happened.

Drew: Yeah. I would do a Lisa the lesbian..

Riese: Sure.

Drew: Or the vampire.

Analyssa: I want an Office comedy of making The Alice Show.

Drew: Oh that’s fun.

Analyssa: I feel like hijinks occur and you know she employs a ton of queer people so there’s all sorts of hookup drama there.

Riese: Oh yeah, that’d be cute.

Analyssa: Sophie and Finley are not the only people who have fucked in that green room.

Riese: Making out in the green room.

Drew: I like that. That’s really fun.

Analyssa: The misadventures of that guy who’s getting her soup.

Drew: If Pippa leaves Bette… I guess Bette’s already leaving Pippa or whatever’s happening, I would follow Pippa around. I’d watch the Pippa show.

Analyssa: Honestly, I’m with Riese. I am not anti the Bette and Tina return. I would watch it if it was again, like I said, finally some good fucking food. I don’t know, that stuff is more fun to me to watch and yell about and be annoyed about than the rest of it and so it’s fun.

Drew: Right. But the problem is that Pippa was not introduced as just a hot person for Bette to have this brief affair with, she was introduced to someone who was opening Bette up to her Blackness and her queerness.

Analyssa: No, I agree.

Riese: That’s where I get upset about her being with Tina.

Drew: The problem is that Bette and Pippa’s relationship was framed in this way that was so heavy, and so then to not let that play out to then be fun, it ruins it. And so then it’s frustrating because yeah, okay Bette and Tina need to be together because of television rules, fine. There are other couples that I can be invested in. It’s just more the thing of being like, “Oh, then what was the point of all of that?” Which I know we all agree on, but I’m just like ugh, you know?

Riese: Well, I do want to talk about how we’re having a fundraiser right now at Autostraddle and if you have enjoyed this podcast and all of the many hours that we have put into analyzing this program for you, or even if you didn’t enjoy the podcast but for some reason are still listening to it, then I think that you should donate to our fundraiser. We have really great perks, we have really great content and stuff that’s going to come out that is going to try to convince you to do it and you should do it. You should just give us money because it costs money to make.

Drew: Yes. Independent queer media is really important because the kinds of conversations that we are having about this show and that we have about a lot of things, aren’t possible often when you don’t have that sort of independence, but it requires money.

Riese: Yes, so please, autostraddle.biz, please go and give us your money and then hopefully we will one day do this podcast again. And Drew may or may not be on it.

Analyssa: Carol will be installed as the third host.

Drew: If you liked when I was happy but don’t like when I’m critical, I do co-host the other Autostraddle podcast that also will potentially get more episodes if Autostraddle gets the money that we need in this fundraiser. So shout out to Wait, Is This A Date? Shout out to Autostraddle, shout out to To L and Back, and shout out to you giving us money.

Riese: Thank you guys for listening to our podcast this season. Listen to Drew’s podcast about dating.

Analyssa: Follow me on Letterboxd.

Riese: Follow Ana on Letterboxd and well, you know where I’ll be forever and ever. That’s all, we had fun.

Analyssa: We promise we had fun, we hope you guys did too.

Riese: We did have fun, yeah. And I think everyone did okay.

Drew: Yes.

Lauren: Thank you so much for listening to this episode of To L and Back: Generation Q, one of two podcasts brought to you by Autostraddle.com. You can follow us on Instagram and Twitter @tolandback. You can also email us at tolandbackcast@gmail.com. Don’t forget, we also have a hotline! Yes, it still exists! Give us a call, leave us a message, or just give us a piece of your mind! You can reach us at 971-217-6130! We also have merch! Head over to store.autostraddle.com. There are “Bette Porter For President” t-shirts, there are To L and Back stickers, and lots of other simply iconic Autostraddle merchandise. Our theme song is by the talented Be Steadwell. Our brand new To L and Back: Generation Q logo is by the incredible Jacqi Ko! Jacqi is so, so talented and you should definitely go check out her work, I’ve linked her website and socials in the show notes! And definitely let us know if you want us to make stickers of the new logo, because I think those would look pretty sick! This episode was produced, edited and mixed by me, Lauren Klein, you can find me on Instagram @laurentaylorklein and on Twitter @ltklein. You can follow Drew everywhere @draw_gregory. That’s “Drew” in the present tense. You can follow Analyssa on Instragram @analocaa, with two As, and on Twitter @analoca_, with one A and an underscore. And you can follow our in-house L Word savant and living legend, Riese Bernard, everywhere @autowin. Autostraddle is @autostraddle. And of course, the reason we are all here…. Autostraddle.com. Okay. So sticking with the trend of last week with our now full-of-intention L words, we are going to end this episode with an L word that describes what we thought of this episode. So Drew, Riese, Analyssa, what are your L words?

Drew: Mine is “leaving” because if they don’t get their act together, I’m leaving.

Riese: That’s good. Mine is “lactose intolerant” because I think that maybe Tom is lactose tolerant and that’s why she sent gummies, because there wasn’t any lactose in the gummies.

Analyssa: The only word I can think of that starts with L is “lasagna” and so now here’s my improv on how that relates to this season and next. Well, a lasagna is some good food and you know what I would love next season is good food from this show. And you know what I had some of this season? Some good food.

Drew: Yes.

Riese: Yeah.

“Wait, Is This a Date?” Podcast Episode 109: Fucking Your Friends

Is it a date or are we just friends? Why not both! This week we’re talking about fucking your friends with Autostraddle community editor and fucking your friends expert Vanessa Friedman. We get into the difference between friends with benefits and one time encounters and the range from drug fueled nights to thoughtful discussions over tea. Is platonic sex a thing? Listen and find out!

And to start us off we have a good ol’ fashioned game of Would You Rather? — with a personalized twist.

SHOW NOTES

+ In case anyone was wondering, my middle name is Burnett. But I think I’m going to stick with just Drew Gregory for now.

+ Despite that hetero moment, this season of The Circle was pretty gay so we did a roundtable about it.

+ Vanessa’s “6 Easy Steps to Having Sex With Your Friends”

+ Here is Bernadette’s titty dress:

Bernadette Peters at the 2021 Tonys in a black Bob Mackie dress that's off the shoulder and covered in stars.

Photo by Arturo Holmes/Getty Images

Vanessa: I have a very, very dear friend who’s definitely chosen family who once said, “The arc of the universe bends towards you fucking your friends.” And so I do feel confident that at some point in time, over the course of our lives, we will probably fuck.

Christina: Wow.

Vanessa: And I thought that was so beautiful, because who knows when? And who knows if? And maybe not. And we’re both bottoms, so honestly what would happen? I don’t know.

Drew: Hi, I’m Drew.

Christina: And I’m Christina.

Drew: And welcome to Wait, Is This a Date?

Christina: Wait, Is This a Date is an Autostraddle podcast dedicated to the age old question: wait, is this a date?

Drew: I’m very excited about the fact that I think as I’ve gotten older, I have also asked that question less.

Christina: I’m very excited about the fact that whenever you start a sentence, I’m like, “No idea where this is going to go. Could go anywhere. It could be anything.” It’s incredible and it makes me feel so alive with the spirit of podcasting and friendship.

Drew: I’m so glad. I’m Drew Gregory. I am a writer and a filmmaker and a trans woman and a queer person. I also am currently trying to figure out if I want to go by my first middle and last name or just my first and last name or drop my last name altogether. So, that’s today’s fun fact about myself is that I have been spiraling about that. Who are you?

Christina: I’m Christina Tucker, and when I first became a person who was like, “Oh, I’m doing stuff on the internet,” I always thought I was going to go by Christina Grace. That was always my plan because like, “Oh my God, she’s famous. Her name’s Christina Grace.”

Drew: Right.

Christina: And then I never did and forgot to do so.

Drew: Sure.

Christina: So, that’s another option that could happen for you.

Drew: Sure.

Christina: I’m also a lesbian writer at Autostraddle. It’s fun. We do gay stuff there and here on this very podcast where we are going to be doing gay conversation. Wow. That was so natural and cool.

Drew: That’s really exciting that we’re going to be doing gay conversation.

Christina: Yeah. It’s actually a huge change from our usual conversation, which is just deeply straight.

Drew: What had happened recently where I was like, “That was too heterosexual?” Oh, it was these two people flirting on the television program, The Circle, and I was like, “This is too straight for me. I can’t watch this anymore. I don’t like this.”

Christina: Fair enough. I can’t grok The Circle as a…

Drew: That’s not your thing. That’s fine.

Christina: Something doesn’t quite click with me. But what I can grok is a fun game for you because it’s my turn to game you, and I went for a classic. This is a Drew edition Would You Rather because these are the kinds of questions that tend to send you into a light spiral which I think is very fun for me, and also the listeners. I’m not sure about your brain, but you’re doing your best and that’s all we could ask.

Drew: I like spiraling.

Christina: Yeah. So, let’s start with an easy one.

Drew: Okay.

Christina: Well, maybe it’s easy. Would you rather have an orgasm every time you hear “All Star” by Smash Mouth, or every time you have an orgasm, “All Star” by Smash Mouth plays?

Drew: Do the other people around me hear it?

Christina: Yes. People hear it.

Drew: Where is it coming from?

Christina: This is not the point of Would You Rather.

Drew: Okay, okay.

Christina: Unfortunately you can’t have that much context.

Drew: Am I singing it?

Christina: I kind of wish.

Drew: I would say that every time it plays, I have an orgasm.

Christina: That’s bold. I feel like that song plays a lot for me.

Drew: I can do the sort of classic sex rom com thing of keep being, “Ah, I’m having an orgasm and I’m trying to keep it a secret as like…” Whatever. I can pull that off, I think.

Christina: Sure, sure, sure, sure. I love that energy. All right. Would you rather identify as sapphic or tender queer?

Drew: Sapphic, for sure.

Christina: Smart.

Drew: I mean, because even if it’s not a word that I use it is accurate, whereas I don’t think tender queer is accurate at all.

Christina: I think that’s very fair. Would you rather be trapped in a car with Ilene Chaiken or Quentin Tarantino?

Drew: Okay. So, if I was trapped in a car with Quentin Tarantino, I think he might kill me. If I was trapped in a car with Ilene Chaiken, I think I might kill her.

Christina: Right.

Drew: So, it’s a real tricky situation, but I do trust my own self control more than Quentin Tarantino’s, so I think I’m going to go with Ilene Chaiken. Also, I could ask her some questions. There’s no mystery with Quentin Tarantino. I know his deal.

Christina: You’re going to go from pissed off to exhausted to probably dead. That’s it.

Drew: But with Ilene Chaiken, I would love to just be like, “Why?”

Christina: Yeah, that’s always the question that we’re all asking, kind of specifically, to her.

Drew: Also, I want to clarify for the record that if I was ever in a space with Ilene Chaiken, I would not kill her. That was just a pithy joke thing.

Christina: Trapped in a car is a different context than in a general space.

Drew: Sure. But even if I was trapped in a car, I’m not going to murder anyone. I just want that to be known for anyone listening.

Christina: We love you, NSA. Would you rather be able to only consume media about straight people, but be in the perfect relationship or only consume gay media and be in a string of terrible relationships for the rest of your life?

Drew: What do you mean by terrible relationships?

Christina: Drew, I’m letting you define terrible however terrible is to you.

Drew: Can I still create queer media? I just can’t watch it.

Christina: Sure. Yeah. You just can’t watch it.

Drew: I feel like I can’t say the terrible relationships. That is where I’m leaning, but I can’t.

Christina: That’s what I thought you would say.

Drew: I can’t do it, though. Right? I can’t. Well, so what is media? Is it film and television or also music and books?

Christina: I mean, I was just kind of thinking about film and television. I mean, I used media to include a wide breadth, but…

Drew: Great. I’m going to have good relationships and pivot towards being a literary gay.

Christina: Incredible. I think that’s really healthy and really beautiful. I really was like, “The way she’s going to pick bad relationships and gay media.”

Drew: I really thought about it. I really, really thought about it.

Christina: I really thought about it mostly because I was like, “Well, then she’d also have stuff to write about. She would have content.”

Drew: Right, yeah. I don’t know.

Christina: I think you can make content kind of no matter what. That’s one of my favorite things about you.

Drew: I actually think that oftentimes my best experiences lead to my best work.

Christina: Not the worst ones.

Drew: Sometimes my most chaotic experiences, but they’re usually good chaos.

Christina: You like good chaos.

Drew: The bad chaos doesn’t usually lead to good stuff because I don’t usually write about it because I don’t really like to write about people negatively.

Christina: Yeah. I hear that.

Drew: So, I tend to avoid writing about my more negative experiences

Christina: And that’s really beautiful. Would you rather only use Lex as a dating app or only use Twitter as a dating app?

Drew: Oh, Twitter.

Christina: Yeah, I thought I’d toss you a light one.

Drew: That’s no question.

Christina: Yeah. That one’s easy. Would you rather have a mullet or an undercut? I know, this is tough. You have a very specific hair type that neither of these styles really lend themselves to being easy to deal with.

Drew: Yeah. I mean, I think probably with my hair type, a mullet would be the more go-to thing, but I think I’m going to go with undercut.

Christina: I think it would look hot.

Drew: Oh, thank you.

Christina: And I do think the growing out process would probably be a struggle bus, but I think that’s kind of—

Drew: But if I’m forced by this game to have an undercut, then maybe I have to have it forever. I mean, I don’t know the rules.

Christina: Yeah. No one really knows the rules of Would You Rather. That’s kind of the fun of it. Would you feel worse if no one showed up to your funeral or your wedding?

Drew: Wait, is the person I’m marrying showing up to my wedding or is it literally no one?

Christina: I think it’s the person you’re marrying, but nobody else. That’s how I’m interpreting it, anyway.

Drew: I see. I see.

Christina: Because then you’re not having a wedding if the person you’re marrying doesn’t show up. You’re just kind of standing somewhere.

Drew: I’ve done that already. I do that all the time. I stand places. I’m just trying to think of the context where no one would show up to either of those things. I sort of can’t fathom.

Christina: Oh, I’m with you. I’m absolutely with you.

Drew: I think I would rather no one show up for my wedding because the scenario that I’ve created in my head is that maybe I’m eloping. Maybe it’s a destination wedding and something happens or maybe it’s like… I don’t know. If my significant other is still there, then that’s all I really—

Christina: That’s really all that matters, yeah.

Drew: I don’t really want a big wedding anyways, and if no one shows up to my funeral, then it’s like, “What did I do? Who did I hurt?”

Christina: When I was a barista I used to ask my regulars if I died tragically if they would come to my funeral. And they were always like, “Christina, I just want a coffee. Why are you like this?” And I was like, “Well, you can’t have it until you answer the question. Ha ha ha.” Most of them said yes, but I was holding caffeine against them, so who can say?

Drew: If they said no, would you have given them the coffee?

Christina: Yeah, because I was at work.

Drew: Right, right, right. Sure.

Christina: Whatever.

Drew: Sure, sure, sure.

Christina: All right. We’ve got two more.

Drew: Okay.

Christina: Would you rather go without TV or would you rather go without musicals for the rest of your life?

Drew: I got to give up musicals, because it’s just more of a narrow thing, but that’s sad.

Christina: Isn’t it?

Drew: Can I still go to Marie’s Crisis or is it like—

Christina: Yeah, that’s definitionally not a musical. That’s just theater kids.

Drew: It’s just people singing. Yeah, I can still be around. Okay. I’m going to give up musicals.

Christina: Yeah. I think you have to. It’s sad, but…

Drew: What about TV musicals? Those also have to go?

Christina: I mean, if you want to watch Rent live for the rest of your life, absolutely go off. If you want to watch The Grinch live, go off.

Drew: I was thinking more like Crazy Ex-Girlfriend.

Christina: Sure. I mean that falls in the category of TV. That’s like definitionally TV. So, you would still have it and that’s something. All right. The last one.

Drew: Oh boy.

Christina: Would you rather accidentally send a nude to your mom or your sister?

Drew: I mean, I guess my sister. The obvious answer is my sister, right? But when I actually think about what this would look like, I got to go with send it to my sister.

Christina: That’s what I thought you would say, but I was also like, “This is a tough one,” because I feel like in both scenarios, the other one is going to know about it almost instantly. So it’s like—

Drew: Right. It’s a good point.

Christina: Just knowing how your family is.

Drew: If I send it to my mom, my sister won’t see it. If I send it to my sister, my mom might see it.

Christina: Right.

Drew: So…

Christina: That’s part of the journey. Well, I feel like I am very satisfied in how well I know you as a person.

Drew: Thank you.

Christina: And I think I would happily show up to your funeral.

Drew: Thank you so much. That is all I was waiting to hear, but would you show up to my wedding is the question?

Christina: Yeah. I’m going to be absolutely the best person at your wedding. I crush weddings. Are you kidding me?

Drew: I believe that. That’s really exciting. I’m not planning on getting married, but now I want to just so you can come to it and have a great time.

Christina: I can bring that energy if you need it at any other event. I’m happy to do that.

Drew: I want more people that I know to get married, though, because I want to go to some more gay weddings.

Christina: Same.

Drew: I mean, I guess it’s more likely that I would get married before you got married.

Christina: The way things are going, yeah.

Drew: But also life’s interesting. Twists happen. And so I’m just saying that if you got married, I would be so excited to attend that wedding.

Christina: Yes. If I get married, you’re coming to my wedding. Spoiler.

Drew: Great.

Christina: Okay.

Drew: Thrilling.

Christina: Great.

Drew: We’re just going to move on to our main topic of the week, which is fucking your friends and for that topic, of course our guest is…

Vanessa: Hi, I’m Vanessa Friedman. I love fucking my friends. I was honored to be asked to come talk about that. I’m the community editor at Autostraddle. I am also a freelance writer elsewhere and a teacher and I am working on my first novel, which is due to my agent on Friday. So, that’s fun. Yeah. That’s me. My Instagram bio says I’m hot and sad, which is true.

Christina: Incredible.

Drew: Those are both great things to be. So, in another sense, you’re queer.

Christina: Yes.

Vanessa: Yeah. So, I’m a dyke, I guess.

Christina: Yep, that’s what I heard when you said hot and sad. That’s exactly what I heard. When Drew and I were brainstorming topics for this here pod and I think genuinely one of the first things we were like, “Well, fucking your friends and we’ll have Vanessa on, of course.” That was just—

Vanessa: Thank you so much.

Christina: The brand is strong. You’re aligned with this topic. We’re calling in an expert here because I think this is a really fruitful convo. I feel like it’s a thing that happens a lot. I feel like it’s a thing that people want to happen, but don’t know how to make happen, and I think you’re the perfect person to join us for this discussion.

Drew: So, the first thing that I want to ask is when was the first time that you fucked a friend in the context not of “I fucked a friend and then we started dating,” but when was the first time that you fucked a friend and it was a friends with benefits situation or a one night thing or whatever, and you stayed friends? Or maybe you didn’t stay friends, but we’ll take that part out of the equation.

Vanessa: Okay. I feel like the question has multiple parts because I definitely think in high school, when I thought I was straight, L-O-L, I definitely… And even in early college, when I thought I was straight, I had friends with benefit situations, but basically what was happening was I was allowing myself to be taken advantage of by people who I had huge deep feelings for who were kind of like, “Yeah, you’ll do.” And I was like, “Great. Great. We are friends. I am deeply friends with this man and we are both benefiting, because feminism. Duh.” And I was very much trying to convince myself and I don’t even have negative feelings towards those men because I definitely was playing along. I don’t think at any point were they like, “I’m harming this girl and her self-esteem,” because I was just like, “No, no, no, no. It’s cool. I love this.” But I did not love it at all. I mean, for a lot of reasons, which later became clear when I was like, “Oh, I’m gay.” But emotionally it did not work for me, and I do think that a lot of queer people are still playing that game, just with other people and it will not work to fuck your friend—

Christina: Spoiler.

Vanessa: …if you secretly want to be dating that person, or if you secretly want anything that isn’t a like friend who you sometimes fuck, which I think is a very key point that people often get in the weeds about. And, I had no idea it was such a controversial topic until I wrote the article, “Six Easy Steps to Fuck Your Friends Without Fucking Up the Friendship.” And people on Instagram were like, mad. They were like, “Don’t do this! This is irresponsible.” And I was like, “Oh, okay. All right. Well, Instagram is a place for nuance and good, good deep discussions.” But to answer the second part of your question, Drew, I actually, because of my straight girl college and high school experiences, I was very against fucking my friends. When I came out as queer, I was like, “No, that’s not my jam.” And, I was in a lot of circles where people did kind of casually fuck their friends. And I was like, “That’s not for me. I like to fuck the people I’m dating, and I like to be friends with the people I’m friends with.” And then, I had a pretty serious breakup in 2018, and suddenly everything shifted. It was just kind of like, “Well, I am a slut. My friends are really hot. Most of us are pretty good at communicating. Oh…”

Christina: A little door opened.

Vanessa: And things sort of changed from there. Yeah. Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Drew: We’re just both nodding.

Christina: We’re just nodding. Yeah. I’m just taking it in.

Drew: It is interesting to think about the difference, because my longest friends with benefits situation was when I was a straight, and it actually was with the only person from my straight years who is still straight, she’s fully married to a man, that level of straight. Not that that inherently makes you straight, but she identifies as straight. He identifies as straight. They’re married together and they have a straight marriage and I love that for them.

Christina: Sometimes people are straight.

Drew: Sometimes people are straight. And, we both weren’t super sexually experienced, and I think because of her heterosexuality and my lack of, I don’t think we ever would’ve dated dated, but we just had a very long friends with benefits situation and it was really good, and it ended pretty okay. There was definitely a little bit, because I got into a relationship and then she texted me to be like, “Let’s have sex.” And I was like, “No, things are getting serious with this person and I’m more monogamous.” And then there was a little bit of hurt feelings, but they quickly, I would say a month later we were friends again. So, I would describe that as a pretty successful experience. And then, since being queer, I talk a lot about blurring the boundaries between friends and people who I have sex with, but I actually have really only had sex with two of, is this true, sex with two of my friends.

Christina: Real time fact track.

Drew: In the context of, we are friends, we have sex. Afterwards, we are still friends, and there is no drama, no one has more feelings. I mean feelings happen, but whatever, and with really only two people. So, it’s something that I’m very open to, but it’s also something I don’t do that often.

Christina: Yeah. I feel similarly in that my more successful friends with benefits was when I was dating cis men, and that’s obviously because I was like, “Well, I don’t like dating you, but I do like having sex.” So it’s very easy for me to be like, “No, I don’t want to spend more time with you, for the love of God, no.” But it has never, not has it never occurred to me to be like, “Oh, my friends are hot. All of my friends are hot. Hot people attract hot people.” It’s a beautiful… it’s what symbiosis is really all about. But the idea of having sex with any of my friends, I’m just like, “No. No thank you. No, I don’t want to do that.” It’s weird. And I think most of us feel the same way. One of my very good friends, Camille, when I was freshly post a breakup, was like, “Look, if you need to have an orgasm, I will close my eyes and I will give you a great orgasm,” but like, “Ew, we shouldn’t do that.” And I feel it is a lot of my close friendships do have kind of like, not necessarily a familial vibe, but it does kind of have that same sister-y feeling. It’s just like, “No, I don’t want, that’s like, no, I can’t fuck that person. That’s my sister friend. Like, no, absolutely not.” So I find it fascinating, this world wherein you can just sleep with a friend and not be like, “Hmm, no pass, pass away. Gross.”

Drew: That’s interesting, because I feel I have some friends who I feel that, where I feel they’re sort of familial to me. And then I have friends who I don’t feel that and would, but it’s not a matter of closeness. Vanessa, do you have, obviously you don’t want, well maybe I shouldn’t assume this, but do you have, I was going to be like, obviously you have some friends you want to fuck and some friends you don’t want to fuck. Maybe that’s not true. Maybe you want to fuck all of them. But do you have that delineation between certain friends where you’re like, and I’m not talking about friends who you don’t want to fuck because you’ve made the conscious choice for the health of your relationship or whatever. I’m talking more like, are there friends you have who you feel that sort of familial like, oh, we’re really close, but it’s not the sexually charged type?

Vanessa: No.

Drew: Yeah.

Christina: Iconic.

Vanessa: And I got to say one of my favorite things about Christina on this podcast is that you’re often kind of in this anthropological seat where you’re like, Drew and the guest are saying this thing and I am just—

Christina: I love to learn.

Vanessa: Huh.

Christina: Yeah.

Vanessa: Okay.

Christina: Yeah. I come from a higher ed background, so it’s really important to me to do scholarly research, and that’s what I’ve signed up for on this here pod, to be the Jane Goodall. That’s me.

Vanessa: This is famously my favorite podcast, which is a huge deal because, as Drew knows, I hate podcasts. So, the fact that I love this one is big, but I really love listening because sometimes I feel I’m in Drew’s seat where I’m like, “Yeah, yeah, yeah. I would participate in this convo.” And sometimes I feel I’m in Christina’s seat where I’m like, “This is fascinating. You don’t say? Whoa.”

Christina: Yeah. I love being a “you don’t say” guy.

Vanessa: I guess I haven’t thought about it from an anthropological way before. But a lot of my very, very close friends who are clearly familial, they are chosen family, forever people, are people who I would totally fuck. And, I guess I think of them as my chosen family, but that doesn’t make me feel like they’re my sister friend in that way.

Drew: Right.

Christina: Mm-hmm.

Drew: I have a very, very dear friend who’s definitely chosen family who once said, “The arc of the universe bends towards you fucking your friends.” And so, I do feel confident that at some point in time over the course of our lives, we will probably fuck. And I thought that was so beautiful, because who knows when? And who knows if? And maybe not. And we’re both bottoms. So honestly, what would happen? I don’t know. Maybe it’d be a group scenario. But just the idea that our friendship exists. I don’t think this person is going anywhere in my life. I see myself growing old with this person, and maybe sometime before we all die, we’ll fuck. And that’s how I feel about most of my friends.

Christina: I think that’s so beautiful.

Vanessa: Over the arc of our life. I guess to me, over the course of growing up, sex has become an activity as opposed to something that has to be deeply emotionally charged. And that doesn’t mean that I’m always capable of having it in a casual way, and there are people in my life who I couldn’t have casual sex with. And those people, I would probably not try to engage in casual sex with, or if I did, it would be a failure. It wouldn’t work. But most of my friends, when I think about fucking my friends and I think about the way that I specifically, as a control freak Capricorn, like to structure the art of fucking my friends, it just feels something that could happen with any friend.

Drew: Yeah. It’s interesting because when I think about life, it’s real long, theoretically.

Christina: Okay, huge take.

Drew: And so, I really only have one friend, because when you’re talking about chosen family and not thinking about them as family in that way, I am the same way. That isn’t the line for me. There are people who I’m like, “Oh, this person’s my chosen family. And also, I have or I would have sex with them.” So, I don’t know. I guess I’m not closed off there. I guess there are people who actively, not actively, there are people who I’m more like, oh yes, that is a friend who, if they said right now, “Let’s fuck,” I would be like, “Yeah, absolutely. Let’s do it.” And then there are people who I’m like, I don’t know if I would say yes right now, but yeah. Even my one friend, my really close friend Hirosch, who’s my friend from, we met in elementary school. That’s the only person who I’m a little bit like, “I don’t know.” But if you said you never will, will you never? I’m like, “I don’t know. Life’s really long.” And the two friends of mine who I have had sex with recently, they’re my chosen family, and I think for me though, like what you’re saying about it being an activity in that way, I don’t know if I have that capacity. What I have is the emotions attached to it can range so vastly. And so, having sex with the two of them wasn’t like, “Oh, I want to join their relationship.” But it was an extension of my feelings, it was still emotionally charged, if that makes sense.

Christina: I think anybody certainly who knows you and anybody who listened to the podcast will think it makes sense for you to find some emotional charge.

Drew: Yeah. Christina did get a voice memo at, what was it, 8:00 AM, that was like, “I am still on cocaine and I cannot sleep, and I had sex with Gaby and Mal and I don’t know what to do.” Oh, it was on Christmas morning, as well.

Christina: It was Christmas morning. Merry Christmas to me. Yes. It was one of the more beautiful gifts.

Drew: Yeah. But, I think also, communication is such an important thing, and being able to be comfortable enough with people to be like, “Well, let’s actually talk this out instead of, once I was sober, quietly spiraling. Let’s actually talk out how we feel. Let’s work through, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.” So, I think most sexual things, communication is a real important part of it.

Christina: Yeah.

Vanessa: I think, as you’re speaking, I’m understanding something that I didn’t understand before—

Christina: Yes!

Vanessa: Which is that I think a lot of people, when they hear the idea of fucking your friends, they are assuming that I mean as an ongoing friends with benefit situation. I actually rarely mean that and I often mean making the very intentional choice to have a fun time with a friend, and then kind of immediately re solidify the friendship boundary. I also had a threesome with two friends who are together at one point, and beforehand, I went over. We were all clothed. It was the afternoon. We were not on cocaine. We had some tea. No shame of being on cocaine. I’m just trying to set the scene. We were deeply not on drugs. We were drinking tea on a sofa and kind of discussed what all three of us would want to get out of the scenario. And then we fucked. It was great. It was several hours. We had a very nice time. And then afterwards, we all put our clothes on again, and they were very much still a couple, and I was very much still not part of their couple. We all went for dinner. We had a very nice meal. And then they dropped me at home and I hugged both of them goodbye, pretty intentionally because I was like, we are not leaving this window open. It’s not like, “Oh my God. Are you all looking for a third?” No, these were two of my extreMaly close friends. We had so much fun. A lot of our kinks overlap, a lot of stuff was really fun and good. Would I do it again? For sure. But would I do it again frequently? No. Because I am self aware enough to know that I can’t fuck the same person too many times with too much frequency who lives in the same city as me without getting feelings. And that’s not what I want from these people who are deeply my chosen family. So, I’m very much making that choice. Do I now understand that some people who are hearing me say fuck your friends think I just mean then keep fucking that couple every weekend for the next six months, and then be like, “Damn it! Why do I have these deeply hurt feelings that they’re still a couple and I’m still…” But, I would never do that because I just don’t trust myself to not get confused.

Drew: That makes a lot of sense, and also what you just described is way healthier than what I described. No shame, I guess, towards myself.

Vanessa: No shame to anyone.

Drew: But, I do think after that happened, one of the things in us talking about it was that I felt complicated about the fact that that line had been crossed when we were all really fucked up. And when we talked about doing it again, I was like, “I want to be sober.” And so, that did happen, and we had another threesome sober and, well, I was sober. I don’t remember exactly how, but no one was on cocaine. If there was a little bit of pot or alcohol, I don’t know. But I was very pointedly like, “This is going to be sober for me.” And it was nice. And it was sort of a month long thing of the bookends, and after it was over, I was like, “I live here. These are two of my best friends.” This month was a little bit messy as it was just always up in the air of, “We’ve said we want this to happen again. When’s it going to happen?” And I was just like, “Oh, this can’t stay an open thing.” Now, do I think in my entire life, will I never not have sex with either of them again? No, I think probably it will happen at some point, but it is what you’re saying, like it is closed. I hang out with the two, I continued to live with them for another whatever, long period of time, and it was funny how quickly it went back to, isn’t it weird how a month ago, there was tension in the house because we all were waiting to have sex again? And it’s like now we are so back to being platonic. But also, sometimes I’m like, can you fuck people platonically? I know that is the opposite of the word, but sometimes it does feel, I would be open to it with most of my friends because even if it would mean something emotionally to me, it wouldn’t mean something emotionally in the sense that, it doesn’t mean something romantic.

Christina: It would be romance, yeah.

Drew: Yeah. And I think the reason it usually doesn’t happen is because I don’t always know if people have that same relationship to sex. I mean, and that was something about Gaby and Mal where I talked to them about polyamory all the time and I’m very much aware of how both of them feel about polyamory and about sex and about… But I don’t know. So, I mean, I talk enough about sort of the blurred lines of friendship and whatever that I guess I also sort of just assume that any of my friends know that that’s a topic they could broach with me if they ever wanted to have sex. And I’m just sort of like, yeah, I mean, it’s casual and it’s there and it’s like… I’m not, I don’t know… It’s like, again, life is long. Who knows when certain things can happen.

Christina: Yeah. I feel like, well, two points. I do have “Blurred Lines” stuck in my head, so that’s something I just want to contend with.

Drew: Sorry about that.

Christina: You know what? It’s fine. It’s frankly a bop. I think we should all stop pretending it’s not. And two, I think it’s interesting that people would assume… As a person who does not fuck my friends, when I read that piece, I was like, obviously what Vanessa is talking about is a very specific, kind of one and done scenario. Because even to me, I was like, well, obviously if you continue this, just open this kind of place, this borderless place, where people are just fucking whenever, because it’s, I don’t know, Tuesday night and we thought a show was on and now it’s not and now we’re having sex again, obviously that is going to bamboozle some minds, and some hearts even, minds and hearts.

Drew: Wow.

Christina: Could you even imagine? So that is very interesting to me that people would assume that what you mean is a long-term friends with benefits thing. Because I find that is such a different negotiation with your relationship with somebody than fucking a friend as like a one-off or a once every couple of years off is, to me anyway. Again, famously a person who does not do this, has not done this.

Vanessa: Yeah. And I think there are people I’m friends with who live in Portland who I occasionally sleep with and it’s kind of a thing that’s on the table. But again, as an activity. We do not do that every time we hang out. I find that often if a person is poly and partnered, that’s useful. I mean, depending on how you practice polyamory. But a lot of people who are polyamorous and have one or two partners aren’t necessarily able to fit more partner time into their lives. I also do think it’s the group of people you’re hanging out with. If you are friends with a bunch of dykes who all want to get married and maybe live in singular houses with their spouse and maybe have a kid or two, and they’re all monogamous and they’re not talking about blurring any boundaries, that’s the kind of life that they want, which is just a choice, that’s fine, then you’re probably not so much going to be looking to fuck your friends after a certain point in time. Unless you’re living that kind of life and suddenly a couple of different people are like, “Hey, we actually love being married and we love being mostly monogamous and we love our kids. But hey, our pals are so hot, do you want to maybe have a foursome together? Do you want to maybe do some kind of swap situation?” Do know what I mean?

Christina: Yeah.

Drew: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Vanessa: It’s kind of like the boundaries of where you live. Like I live in Portland, Oregon. Most people here are either actually polyamorous or they think they’re polyamorous. I’m friends with a lot of people who say things like relationship anarchy, unironically and just kind of like as part of their lives.

Christina: So brave.

Vanessa: And I’m friends with a lot of people who don’t want to get married. I’m friends with a lot of people who don’t have kids yet. And so there’s kind of like this space to almost play, I think, which has been fun for me. I maybe want to have a kid. I don’t know if I have a kid if I’m going to have that much time to be thinking about fucking my friends, but I hope I still do because I hope I’m still myself, even if I’m a mom.

Christina: Moms can fuck too is a really large part of my political platform, so.

Vanessa: I love that for you, and I love that for those moms. You know? And I love that for me one day if I decide to have a kid. So I don’t know, I think I’m a little bit getting in the weeds, but I’m kind of saying I don’t care if people don’t want to fuck their friends. That was what was so funny to me. People were deeply angry that I was like, “Hey, you can fuck your friends.” And here’s my bossy, Capricorn, control freak way of kind of trying to give you a framework to do that without confusing yourself, without confusing your friends. And hopefully to have just like a fun, sexy experience that doesn’t blur the lines or blurs them in a positive way and then you can go back to unblurring them or whatever. And people were really like, “You are telling me that I have to do this thing that I know doesn’t work. And it is an unhealthy choice.” And I was like, sounds like you’re making some unhealthy choices. I’m just trying to help you.

Christina: I just — that never even crossed my mind that that would be a reaction of yours. I did not think we were going to hop into this little recording and you were going to be like, “Well, Christina, you boring yawn of a bitch.” I did not think at all. Very interesting, the emotional baggage people bring to the things you write online for the internet.

Drew: Yeah. Wild, isn’t it?

Christina: Isn’t it wild?

Drew: Something I think about sometimes is that there are friends who I actively would want to have sex with, but who I am like it is not a smart choice based on these handful of things. And theoretically, I’m very open to having sex with most of my friends, but I, with sex in general, I think can usually come up with reasons why it shouldn’t happen, which some of those are valid and some of them I think are a little bit shame-based or something. But yeah, and what you’re saying, Vanessa, about it really working when it’s with a couple, I do think that I’m like, okay, well, if I had had sex with Gaby or Mal separate, as individuals, if they weren’t in that relationship, and we continued to have sex, what if I developed feelings in a way? I don’t know, I think — or would it have gotten messier or whatever? I’m not sure and I think sometimes that’s why I make the choices I make. The other thing is that it did happen in this very chaotic way. And I do sort of think that oftentimes… I don’t know, I’m trying to figure out, I guess this sort of goes into some of the stuff we talked about on our Best Sex Ever episode, but about the difference between like a chaotic sexual encounter versus a what you’re describing of, like, we sat down and we had tea and we talked about the pros and cons of us doing this. And “it’s my birthday and we’re all dressed up and doing cocaine and then have sex” is a more appealing narrative to me than “we drank tea and talked about our boundaries,” but obviously drinking tea and talking about your boundaries is so much better. And so I’m like, I mean, again, no judgment, but it is. It is better. And I think it’s interesting because as I sort of start to explore having romantic sex that is very discussed and boundaried and it’s incredible, I would love to bring that into my casual sex as well. Right? And to be like, oh, okay, so I used to be like, well, I don’t know if I can have these in-depth discussions about what I’m into, what my partner is into and it still feel exciting and have that energy. And I, since recording the Best Sex Ever episode, have learned that in fact it is possible and it’s even better and it’s great and everything people said about communication was real. So similarly, I do wonder about being like, oh, well maybe I would be able to get to a place of having tea with a friend and then having sex and it being really great.

Vanessa: I think the thing for me with sex with friends is it honestly feels really safe and good to me. Kind of what you were talking about with sitting down and talking about boundaries. When you say it that way, it sounds so dorky, but no shame to anyone for doing how they do anything. That’s how I like to do things. If I’m having sex with a friend, it’s usually, like we’ve talked a lot about like where our kinks overlap. And a lot of times there’s really fun specific stuff that I actually might not feel comfortable asking a stranger, a one night stand who I bring back from the bar, but I’m deeply close with this person and it doesn’t feel weird to be like, oh, you know I’m into this thing because you tease me about it all the time because we’re friends.

Drew: Right.

Christina: Yeah.

Drew: And so actually is that a place where you would like to try that? I slept with friends who are kind of getting their feet with topping and I’m a very encouraging bottom and have had great feedback from that. So it’s kind of like there’s space to play. I do feel like a lot of what I’ve been laughing about in this episode is people being mad about the concept of it. But something that I actually do want to highlight is if you’re shy about sex, if you want to try something that does feel really scary to do with a stranger, but is something that maybe could feel safer to do with a friend. If you have a new toy you want to try out. I don’t know, to me, one of the… And I’m always interested in figuring out what is friendship and what is the expansive definition of it? And where are all the places it can go and what can it do? And to me, something I’ve learned is if a friend is open to it, and not all my friends want to fuck. I famously have two deeply close friends who have been dating for eight years. And literally since the night I met them, I was like, “I’m down to fuck if you are.” And they were very sweet about it at first when we barely knew each other and they were like, “Oh, well, maybe.” And then as we got closer, they were like, “No.” And like, it’s just a thing. It’s not like I’m sexually harassing them by being like, “Do you want to sleep together?” But occasionally, like on my birthday, I was like, “Still available if you ever are.” And they were just like, “Babe, no, it’s never going to happen.” And then kind of sweetly kissed me on the lips and were like okay. And this was a birthday pre-COVID. But you know, so would I sleep with those friends? Yeah. A hundred percent. But do I understand that they’re not down and that’s not something they want to do? Yeah. And is that fine? Does it affect our friendship? No.

Christina: No, right.

Drew: Not even a little bit. Like not a once. It’s something they tease me about sometimes. Like if I’m in a particularly hot outfit, they’re like, “Oh, I see what you’re trying to do there.” And I’m like, “Well?” And they’re like, “Nope. Still, no. You’re very hot. Still no.” But I don’t know. So that to me is kind of beautiful, that even in a friendship… If someone rejects you on a dating app or rejects you at a bar, you’re kind of like, okay, that person is off to the wind. But you’re not losing your friendship because someone’s like, “Oh no, I’m not interested in that.” It’s just, I don’t know, to me, friendship is a very safe, sacred space and it’s nice to be able to fuck sometimes in that space, if both people are or all people want to.

Drew: Yeah. That makes total sense to me.

Christina: Yeah, that’s really lovely.

Vanessa: That’s my sentimental pitch for fucking your friends.

Drew: No. I think it really is true though that it can be a really safe space to explore. I think that is a real good pitch for the concept itself.

Vanessa: Thank you.

Drew: And I think sometimes you just also are so close with someone and it feels like you want to… It’s just like another way of expressing closeness and intimacy. And not that it has to manifest in every connection, obviously, but I think there is something that’s nice about, I don’t know… I do wish that even if I don’t necessarily want to have sex with all of my friends, I am like, oh, I wish I could make out with all of them. And I think a lot of people feel that more. Or like, well I make out with my friends. But yeah, it’s just interesting to think about where our lines are when it comes to physical intimacy with people who we have intense, emotional intimacy with. And it’s definitely something I think about. I don’t have anything wise to say. It’s just something that I think I’m always navigating of what are my actual desires in those relationships, et cetera, et cetera.

Christina: Yeah. I think for me, it’s also a part of thinking about, when I say friends, what do I mean? Do I mean an acquaintance? Do I mean like all of my super close best friends? How do I delineate along the line of friendship? And how does that change how I feel about sleeping with a super close friend v. a casual friend that I’ve known for a few months? That feels less gross to me than sleeping with, I don’t know, Shoshana. That would be horrid. We made out one time when we were 19 and it was disgusting. But yeah, a casual pal who I’ve known for a couple of months, there’s more space, I think, probably because that relationship is less defined for me. And also as a Taurus, I’m like, you have been put into a place in my brain and that’s where you go. So there’ll be no changing of that.

Drew: I think I’m with Vanessa in the sense that that feels more vulnerable to me. I think part of it with Gaby is that we’re so close that it did feel safe and it did feel fine. And I never had any… There was no world where, regardless of what happened, regardless of anything, that Gaby and I wouldn’t have been friends after that. And so I think with someone who I’ve known for a few months, or even people who I’ve known for longer who I’m close with, but I’m not that close with, I think I have more of a like, I don’t know how you’d react. I don’t know how I’d react. I don’t know what would happen there. And so if I’m potentially wanting something more then I’m like, yeah, sure. Why not? Let’s see what this relationship could be. And I know that I have the capacity very much where if it didn’t work out that I could like be like, okay, let’s get back to building that friendship of ours. But I wouldn’t have the same trust that they would have that. And so it’s so interesting because I have… So many of my close friends started as people who I wanted to hook up with. And a lot of them I didn’t hook up with though, but it did just turn into a friendship. And it’s like, I don’t think the attraction ever really went away, but I think it gets to a place where it’s like, well, this is either they’re just not interested at all or I’m no longer interested because that’s not what we’re doing. But then I think it can get to that next level where it’s like… I mean, even like with my friend Hirosch. We could have sex and I don’t think it would change our relationship at all. I think it would be fine. It’s just I don’t think of them that way, in the way that I think I always feel a little bit of they’re the only person who I think of a little bit differently. But I wouldn’t have any fears with that. So, there’s this little margin of intense closeness, but not the person I’ve known since elementary school, that is like, oh, I feel like that could really work out.

Christina: That’s the sweet spot for you.

Drew: Yeah.

Christina: That makes sense. Vanessa, you look like you have a closing thought, which is your right.

Vanessa: I think my closing thought is that humans are fascinating because—

Christina: That could be the subtitle of this podcast.

Vanessa: Yeah. Christina, everything you said about slotting people into places in your brain, that is so true for me too. And I think my nightmare in life is being wrong about where I’m slotted in someone’s brain. And to me that’s why fucking my friends feels so nice and easy because I’m like, great, you are my friend.

Christina: Fascinating.

Vanessa: What Drew was saying.

Drew: Ooh.

Christina: Ooh, interesting.

Vanessa: There’s no world in which you as a person are not going to be my depart friend until we die. We will probably be knitting sparkly sweaters together at the old age home when we’re 90. So if we fuck or if we don’t fuck, that’s still who we are.

Christina: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Vanessa: Versus if I’m dating someone, if I’m having a confusing situationship, et cetera, et cetera, that’s really hard for my brain. But if you’re my friend and we happen to fuck, amazing. I also just think I’m a deeply horny person and maybe that can be my closing statement.

Drew: Okay, I have one last thing, which is just that’s so impressive to me because… Not you being horny. I mean, yes it is, but I also feel like I’m also very horny. But it’s the—

Christina: Horny pod.

Drew: If I fuck a friend, I have faith that we will still be friends, but I do not have faith that we won’t be something else in addition to friends. Fully in the middle of the Gaby and Mal stuff, I was like, “I’m bisexual, and I’m in love with both of you.” I did get to that headspace. It passed, and we went back to being friends. And I always had faith that it would pass and we would go back to being friends. But I am very anxious about not slotting people in the right place, so I like to have a little test. And I think that is part of what it is for me, being like, well I’d love to date all my friends for a few months sometime in our lives just to see if maybe that’s what it’s supposed to be. So I think what we’ve learned from this episode is that Vanessa is more clear-headed than I am.

Christina: All I keep hearing every time Drew talks is just Venus in Sag, Venus in Sag, Venus in Sag.

Vanessa: My Venus is in Sag too!

Christina: Fascinating!

Drew: Yeah. Yeah.

Christina: That is fascinating.

Drew: We’re both Capricorns with Venus’s in Sag. Vanessa’s just more evolved than me, and you have a few years on me though. And I’m getting more evolved, even just throughout this podcast.

Vanessa: Yeah. Wait, Drew, how old are you? Not to be a bitch, but how old are you?

Drew: I am 27.

Vanessa: Totally. So I’m 32.

Christina: Same.

Vanessa: And I do feel like what we’re seeing is a Caps on Venus in Sag at 27.

Drew: Great.

Vanessa: And a Caps on Venus in Sag at 32. And I think that’s beautiful.

Drew: That is really beautiful.

Christina: That really is beautiful. Speaking of things that are beautiful, crushes. You know what are beautiful? Having a crush on, sometimes, people in pop culture that is platonic or maybe is just a vibe that you’re digging. And I think we’re going to celebrate that right now. Vanessa, who are you digging on?

Vanessa: I’m so glad you asked. I texted Drew in advance of this telling her I was very nervous about the crush aspect and I put a lot of thought into it and I thought about the theme and I realized, duh, I have a crush on my friends, Christina and Drew.

Christina: Wow.

Drew: Wow.

Christina: This is actually brilliant because it’s also kind of getting ahead of our actual final question, which I’m loving.

Drew: Wow. That’s great.

Christina: That’s really beautiful.

Drew: That is really exciting.

Christina: I feel a little giggly. I feel a little toasty suddenly. I don’t know.

Vanessa: Oh my God.

Christina: Should I crack a window? What’s happening? I’m loving that. Okay, Drew. While I collect myself, who is your crush on?

Drew: Okay. So I’m doing a classic crush.

Christina: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Drew: I’m doing an all-time crush. Someone who I think about all the time. Wait, did I do this crush already?

Christina: Maybe.

Drew: I don’t think I did.

Christina: You haven’t said it.

Drew: I don’t think I did. Did I?

Christina: Really no way to know.

Drew: If I did, you have to correct me.

Christina: You got to say it first.

Drew: My crush of the week is Katharine Hepburn.

Christina: Nope. You haven’t done that.

Drew: Okay. I guess I just was like, I must have already, we’re so many episodes in. Katharine Hepburn is just definitely one of my, “I don’t know if I want be you or be with you” people.

Christina: For sure.

Drew: It’s funny to say this because I’m always in a movie place, but I’ve been really in a movie place lately where I just feel like I’m getting into movies again, which again is a very silly thing for me to say. But, I don’t know. Last month I re-watched Bringing Up Baby with the person I’m dating. And Bringing Up Baby is just like one of my all-time favorites. And I just love Katharine Hepburn, she’s like chaotic energy, and her confidence, and the way she wears pants. And I love Katharine Hepburn, and she’s my crush of the week and my crush of my life.

Christina: That’s incredible. She wears pants really well. I’m going to give you that one. In honor of the Tony’s last night, one, Bernadette Peters showed up with her titties just sitting so high in a vintage ’80s dress. When I first saw the ethnic Cinderella, AKA the Brandy Cinderella, AKA the only Cinderella I recognize, I was struck by a lot of things in that film. But Bernadette Peters as the mean stepmother, I said, something’s happening within me at that. And it was something that I didn’t necessarily understand until much later.

Drew: Sure, sure.

Christina: But it was a very early evil mommy root for me.

Drew: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Christina: And I’m just so glad that she is still doing all that she does. I’m so glad that she can barely move any part of her face except for her mouth. I find that actually inspirational.

Drew: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Christina: And I just hope she’s well, every day going forward until the end of time.

Drew: Wow. That’s beautiful.

Christina: Thanks. So is Bernadette.

Drew: Yeah.

Christina: Vanessa, you want to tell our listeners where they can find you and all of your incredible work?

Vanessa: Thank you. Yeah, you can find my work on autostraddle.com. You can also find me on Twitter @vanessapamela. You can find me on Instagram @vanessatakesphotos. And you can find me at my really needs a renovation website, vanessapamela.com

Christina: We love it.

Drew: Okay. So the last thing, which, because this is your favorite podcast you know this is coming, and also now I feel a little bit flushed because we were your crushes, but was this a date?

Christina: Were we on a date?

Vanessa: I mean, how do you guys feel? Do you want it to be a date?

Drew: Oh wow. That’s such a good response.

Christina: No one ever throws it back on us, which is funny because we do throw this question at people whether they’re prepared or not for it. I think if we are going by the history of this podcast, I would be like, “No, this is not a date.” And Drew would be like, “Maybe this is a date.”

Drew: Yeah. Boom.

Christina: I’m going to be classic. But—

Drew: You got to stay on brand.

Christina: But maybe it was a date. I don’t know. You really threw me off with that crush moment.

Drew: My policy is that if something is a maybe date, then it is a date because a date isn’t a promise, it’s just an opportunity. So it’s like, if you are trying to figure it out… I’m going to say yes. I’m going to say that if the two of you went on a date it’d be very silly because you’re the two most bottomiest people I know.

Christina: Thank you.

Vanessa: I feel like if we were all in the same room and we were sitting on a couch and drinking some tea, I would be like, “If you agree that this is a date, I feel comfortable calling this a date.”

Drew: Oh.

Vanessa: But if you don’t want it to be, and you just want it to be a friend hang, that’s cool with me too. And we could go from there.

Drew: That’s really beautiful.

Vanessa: That’s because that’s how I like to communicate.

Christina: So beautiful.

Drew: Oh, you’re so good at communicating.

Christina: I think that’s really beautiful.

Vanessa: Thank you.

Christina: I just like to reflexively say no to things. So I think I’m trying to learn something from both of your energies today.

Drew: Great.

Christina: Maybe getting a little bit more comfortable in the in-between spaces. Trying.

Drew: I’m so glad. I really enjoyed this date that we went on.

Christina: Me too.

Vanessa: Me too.

Christina: I had a really lovely time. What a way to start the week.

Drew: I love it. Well, thanks so much for joining us.

Christina: Truly an honor.

Vanessa: Thank you for having me. Bye.

Drew: Thank you so much for listening to Wait, Is This a Date? You can find us on Twitter and Instagram @waitisthisadate and you can also email us at waitisthisadate@gmail.com.

Drew: And you can find me on Twitter, Instagram, and TikTok @draw_gregory. And you can find Autostraddle on all social medias @autostraddle.

Christina: And go visit autostraddle.com because that’s the reason we’re all here today.

Drew: Thank you all so much and see you next week.

Christina: Yeah. We’ll absolutely see you next week, and we can’t wait.

Drew: Yeah, and maybe next week will be a date.

Christina: Hey, maybe it will be. Wilder things have happened.

Christina: The gayest thing about this podcast is that the outro is a boundary.

Drew, in a voice memo: Before I came out, I dated so many straight girls who had fucked all of their friends and were like, “No, I’m straight. It’s just sometimes you get really close with people and there’s nowhere else to go, closeness-wise, except to have sex. But it was just a casual thing.” None of those people identify straight anymore. And you know what? Good for them.

“To L and Back” Generation Q Podcast Episode 209: Last Dance

Much like Pippa Pascal on this here TV program, the hosts of To L and Back have some trust issues! We’ve gone from epic highs (the karaoke episode) to some extreme lows, and so despite our best efforts and despite the number of shindigs in this episode, it’s a little hard to relax into this installment of our much beloved television series.

Because yes, while it’s firmly homecoming season in the real world (or so my Facebook feed tells me, filling as it is with photos of my teenage cousins all dressed up), in The L Word it’s prom night! Angie is wearing a suit and grappling with her feelings about not getting the chance to meet her donor. The adults gather at Bette’s to drink, gossip, and make-out in inappropriate places! Meanwhile, Sophie tries to search for Finley by making phone calls to various law enforcement agencies while also fighting with her family because we only have one episode left so you know things gotta get capital-S Serious…

SHOW NOTES

Riese’s recap of Generation Q Episode 209 Last Dance
Alice’s billboard is supposedly outside this local bookstore in LA!
Drew’s second interview with Mae Martin
The book review I just did for Autostraddle that I would have submitted as proof I could cover Alice’s new book
Alice would maybe like to read this roundtable about choosing visibility as a bi+ person from Autostraddle staff!
The reason Jordi & Angie were dancing in the hallway is because this was taking place in the gym
In case you are not like me and don’t think about this Villanelle dress every day of your life
I am once again linking this essay about how Gen Q has previously mishandled sobriety storylines
The list of lesbian and bisexual characters who have died on TV that Riese referenced
We didn’t talk about this roundtable explicitly in the episode, but it’s always a good day to read Autostraddle’s queer writers of color discuss this series, no reason just a fun share!

Drew: Hi, I’m Drew.

Analyssa: And I’m Analyssa.

Riese: Oh, and I’m Riese.

Drew: And this is—

Drew, Analyssa, and Riese: To L and Back: Generation Q edition!

Analyssa: We’ve gotten so much better at that.

Drew: We have.

Riese: I think of all the happiness that now we’re in the same room, and it’s a lot easier.

Drew: Yeah.

Analyssa: Why is that?

Riese: Well, there’s a delay.

Analyssa: Right.

Drew: On Zoom.

Riese: And I think also just the vibe.

Drew: Yeah.

Riese: It’s about vibes.

Drew: Yeah.

Analyssa: It’s really like… Did you guys ever play that improv game? I’m coming out as a theater kid, uh-oh, where you all stand in a circle or not, with your eyes closed or not, but then someone says, “One,” and then someone says, “Two.”

Riese: Oh yeah. That you would do before the show.

Analyssa: Yeah.

Drew: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Riese: Because then it showed how well you were vibing or not.

Analyssa: Exactly.

Riese: Yeah.

Drew: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Analyssa: Yeah.

Drew: Yes.

Analyssa: That’s kind of what this is.

Riese: Yeah, I get that. I love that. Yeah.

Analyssa: This is like a per episode vibe check.

Drew: We’re all on the same vibe today, I guess, maybe, question mark?

Riese: Maybe. I guess we’ll find out.

Drew: We’ll find out.

Riese: It’s a Monday.

Drew: This episode is episode 209 “Last Dance.” It’s directed by Haifaa Al-Mansour who directed the last episode, which you may remember, may not remember, the last episode. Notorious episode.

Riese: Yeah, the worst episode.

Drew: And it’s written by Allie Romano, who wrote on The Upshaws and on season one of Gen Q. Should we get into it?

Riese: Yeah.

Drew: Okay.

Riese: I’m trying to… I want to be enthusiastic for the people at home.

Drew: I want to be harsh and funny for the people at home.

Analyssa: I want to be, as always, somewhere in the middle. I would like to kick us off just by saying that the saga cell, I know I’m always the only person who cares about the saga cell, which is the 30 seconds at the beginning that recaps what has happened in previous weeks—

Riese: Oh, okay.

Analyssa: …and basically tells you what’s important this week to know.

Riese: Right.

Analyssa: I’m obsessed with them as an art form.

Riese: Okay.

Drew: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Analyssa: Those and credit sequences are so fun for me to watch. That’s not what this is about. This saga cell made me so mad for Carrie all over again. It’s just so…

Riese: Was it really Carrie heavy?

Analyssa: Yes.

Riese: I don’t remember.

Analyssa: It was really Carrie heavy, and it’s like a super cut of her issues this season, which is just like, we’ve talked about how Carrie has bad boundaries and that’s all well and good, but she’s the only visibly older character, and she’s the only not thin character. And she just… Her driving—

Drew: She’s really the only butch character.

Analyssa: And her driving thing is that she hates herself? It just makes me so annoyed.

Drew: Yeah. Yeah.

Analyssa: She passed the bar in two states!

Drew: Yeah.

Riese: Yeah.

Analyssa: We’ve already litigated this, but I just wanted say this was an especially egregious—

Drew: Nice.

Analyssa: Thank you.

Riese: Oh my God. I just remembered that after, when we found out that she was playing a defense attorney named Carrie, I don’t know if this is before I made the connection that it was going to be Tina’s fiance or not, but I thought that Bette was going to be going to court—

Analyssa: Right.

Riese: … for—

Drew: Pushing.

Riese: …pushing that guy on the stairs. God, were we ever so young?!

Analyssa: What if Bette and Carrie were in court, fighting it out for something?

Riese: Oh, man. Yeah, that’s what I thought was going to happen. I didn’t think there would be fighting at poker night.

Analyssa: Yeah, that would be—

Riese: Or the other poker night.

Analyssa: That would be so fun. I wish that it weren’t

Riese: Or another poker night.

Drew: I’d also like to say that Carrie also has not had a sex scene yet. So it’s just—

Riese: That’s true.

Drew: So it is just also like, what role is that kind of person allowed to fill on this show?

Riese: Well, I mean, I think it’s the role Rosie wanted to play.

Analyssa: I do agree. I know that you said this.

Riese: Yeah.

Analyssa: I agree that she’s getting some meaty, dramatic acting work, which I can imagine, if you’re a Rosie O’Donnell, that could be fun and interesting, and you might weigh in that that’s an interesting storyline to pursue.

Riese: Yeah.

Analyssa: But what if Bette and Carrie were arguing over the best type of food instead of who had it worse growing up, and then Carrie’s really sad?

Drew: I mean, this is also why you can’t have one butch character, one older character, one fat character. This is why.

Riese: Right.

Drew: Because then you don’t have to limit the storylines as much when there’s a lot more characters.

Analyssa: Okay. I’m sorry for that digression.

Drew: No, that’s okay.

Analyssa: We can talk about the episode now.

Drew: Yeah. The only thing I have to say that’s good is Pippa’s seashell cowboy hat. Obsessed with it.

Analyssa: I also thought Bette’s coat, dress that ties in the front, I didn’t really know what it was. Loved it.

Drew: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Riese: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah, great fashion. I think whenever I go to an impromptu protest that is filled with actors who all have the same handwriting on their signs and it feels so incredibly… Honestly, it felt more fake than the protest at the CAC in the original series.

Drew: Yes.

Analyssa: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Riese: In terms of like, this is a protest on television vibe.

Drew: Yes.

Analyssa: Yeah.

Riese: It was so intense. But I think what’s most important, and everyone knows this at a protest, is fashion.

Analyssa: So true.

Riese: And I think that these two women, they’re like, we’re basically on a catwalk. We’re walking through this crowd. They are all up in arms about this situation because Bette Porter, Patron Saint of underprivileged artists, has inspired them all to rise up against Dani’s dad’s company. I want to see fashion.

Drew: Yeah. Absolutely.

Analyssa: They said, “Put on your best fit.”

Riese: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Analyssa: “Grab one of these signs that one person made over here.”

Riese: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah.

Analyssa: “And then maybe the LA Times will come take pictures of us.” And you know what? They weren’t wrong.

Drew: It was nice of Bette to make all those signs for everybody.

Riese: It was.

Analyssa: So true.

Riese: Yeah.

Analyssa: That was like, you know in Catholicism, you have to do a penance? It’s like, you have to say 10 Hail Mary’s.

Riese: Right.

Analyssa: That’s penance for almost losing Pippa. The gallery was like, “Okay, I’m going to organize a protest because I believe in that. My penance, because I did do something silly, is I will make 15 signs, and then we’ll go.”

Riese: Right.

Drew: Can I make my first complaint of the episode?

Riese: Absolutely.

Drew: Okay. So when the last episode ended with Pippa and Bette being like, “We’re going to take them down together.”

Riese: Yeah.

Analyssa: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Drew: I wanted like… You know how season finales of Mad Men would have a lot of scheming?

Riese: No.

Drew: Neither of you watched it?

Analyssa: I don’t.

Riese: No.

Drew: Great.

Analyssa: We’re both shaking our heads vigorously.

Drew: You know how like—

Riese: I mean, “men” was in the title.

Drew: Okay.

Riese: Yeah.

Drew: You know how in, basically, like a heist movie, sometimes it’s not a heist where this is done, where it’s like… Sometimes it’s a work takedown or a political takedown or something, and there’s a lot of scheming and it’s quick cuts, fun, whatever.

Riese: Oh yeah. Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Drew: I wanted a scheme. I wanted them to take down. And instead, we just start with they’ve already… Even… And I’m not even, it doesn’t have to be super high concept. I just would’ve loved to see them getting these artists together.

Riese: Right.

Drew: I would’ve loved to see them bond over being political and being into the arts.

Riese: Right.

Drew: So I would’ve loved to see the two of them making calls, being like, “We need to get this person, this person. Oh, this person.” You know? Something fun and exciting and schemey and political, and whatever.

Riese: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Drew: And instead they just walk up to the protest, and they’re like, “Wow, we organized this protest.” And I was like, “Oh.”

Riese: You know what I would’ve loved is if instead of Pippa being like, “This will be your legacy,” if Bette had been to Pippa… Well, first of all, I mean, I think I’m in the minority here on this podcast, but I think this entire thing is stupid. But if we were going to say that it’s not stupid, then I would like Pippa to be the one at the center of it, not fucking Bette Porter.

Drew: No. I mean, the story line is stupid. I think we—

Riese: Right.

Drew: I don’t know. I think we agree on that. I just, when it was like, “Oh, they’re going to team up to whatever,” I was like, “Okay, this could maybe be good.” But then it wasn’t.

Riese: Oh, I mean, the ethics of whether or not they should take this money.

Drew: Oh, I see.

Riese: I think they should just take it.

Drew: Yeah.

Riese: I mean, they’re not the Sacklers. They didn’t manufacture the opioids.

Drew: I think the show has not been clear about what exactly Dani’s family has done and how bad they are.

Riese: Yeah.

Drew: And how bad the company is. So I think, because they brought up the Sacklers, I’m like, “Well, if it was the Sacklers.”

Riese: Right. If it was the Sacklers, sure.

Drew: But I’m confused if that’s actually where they’re at.

Riese: Right.

Drew: Because that hasn’t been shown to us.

Riese: Yeah.

Drew: So if they’re just regular evil, rich people, then that’s who funds most museums.

Riese: Right.

Drew: That’s how it works.

Riese: Right.

Drew: So I’m with you on that, I guess, it depends sort of where they are.

Riese: Also, honestly, Núñez is a name to be chanting against doesn’t really hit like Sackler hits.

Drew: Yeah.

Riese: It doesn’t have that same impact, in my opinion.

Drew: Yeah.

Analyssa: I don’t understand the stakes, which is Bette threatened to pull Pippa’s art, and then almost lost the show. But now, all the artists whose art are in the gallery are protesting the gallery that they are in.

Riese: Against. Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Analyssa: And there’s no danger that they will lose their show?

Riese: Right.

Analyssa: Am I understanding that correctly?

Drew: Yeah. It doesn’t make a lot of sense.

Analyssa: Okay, cool. Okay. Something else that doesn’t make sense, just if we have more on this, we can come back to it, because we can talk about it at many points in this episode. But the Alice billboard, the billboard for Alice’s book is on Sunset Boulevard, by State Social House, which has great nineties nights on Saturdays, I mean, not since March 2020, I assume.

Drew: Right.

Analyssa: And also by Book Soup, great local bookstore.

Drew: Oh yeah.

Riese: Oh, I love that place.

Analyssa: That is not where this JW Marriot is. The only JW Marriot in Los Angeles is downtown.

Riese: I was like, “Why are they at the fucking Marriot?” I would feel like they would put an Ace Hotel sign on Sunset Boulevard and then film in the Ace Hotel downtown.

Analyssa: Right.

Riese: And then be like, “There, she’s at the Ace Hotel.”

Analyssa: I’m like, The W on Sunset is right there.

Riese: Oh yeah. The W is exact… That’s like L Word level of douchey is The W.

Analyssa: Exactly.

Drew: I shot a movie in the W Hotel.

Riese: I fucking love the W.

Drew: I shot my thesis, my NYU thesis at W Hotel.

Riese: There you go.

Analyssa: So that didn’t make sense to me. And more things that didn’t make sense to me in this little scene are, Alice is being interviewed for her book and is somehow surprised that people are going to ask her about her personal life and wasn’t ready for this.

Riese: I actually was surprised. I was like, “Why in the world did they ask her who she’s dating?” I mean, but I was like, “Is it because this person wants to date her?” Because this person is hot.

Drew: Yeah.

Analyssa: I did think that. And I was like, “If she’s flirting, then fine.”

Drew: I have only asked one time if someone who I was interviewing was dating someone, and it was Mae Martin. And it was because it was our second interview. And the first interview, we had talked about stuff, and Mae said, “I’m not going to answer that question.” And I said, “That’s perfectly fine.” And we carried on. I don’t think it’s standard, so I was surprised by that.

Riese: I would never ask anyone that.

Drew: No, I would not. I would not ask anyone who I didn’t have previous rapport and an internet friendship with.

Riese: Right. And if I did and they seemed even vaguely uncomfortable, I would immediately retreat into my shell.

Analyssa: Yes.

Drew: Yes. Yes.

Riese: And I would then have to tell everyone I knew what I had just done and how embarrassing it was, and I would probably talk about it for at least three weeks.

Drew: Yeah.

Analyssa: Right. Yeah, same.

Riese: And then I’d bring it up later on this podcast, in this moment, I would be mentioning it.

Analyssa: Well, this interviewer has watched all the seasons of The L Word, and so has forgotten also that Alice is bisexual.

Riese: Right. Well, and also that there’s lots of different pronouns that could be used by the people… Like I thought her even being like, “So who’s the lucky lady?” I was like, “Come on. It’s 2021. Who’s the lucky lady?”

Analyssa: Yeah.

Drew: Yeah. But as we know, non-binary people only exist to have sex with Finley offscreen.

Riese: Right. Oh, and also it turned… Jose, I guess, had an ex, who was a “they/them” in the first season.

Drew: Oh, really?

Riese: Someone commented.

Drew: Oh.

Riese: So another offscreen non-binary person?

Drew: We love — yeah. Also, maybe Finley had sex with… Was that the person that we saw Finley having sex with?

Riese: Yeah.

Drew: Okay. But we never—

Riese: Who Finley didn’t refer to as a girl in that episode, but in the next episode, find out that they used different pronouns.

Drew: Yeah.

Riese: Thank you.

Drew: Yeah, good stuff.

Riese: Also, there was an interviewer from Out Magazine, and I feel like it could have been an interviewer from Autostraddle.

Drew: Sure could have been.

Riese: In fact, it could have specifically been you.

Drew: I would—

Riese: Actually, you wrote a book piece last week.

Analyssa: I did.

Riese: It could have been either of you.

Analyssa: It could’ve been any of us.

Drew: It could have been you. I think you would’ve been the person who would’ve been cast to do that.

Riese: Right. But I would’ve been like, “Do you think… I could probably get someone else to do this interview.”

Drew: Yeah. I mean, I would’ve loved to. I would’ve done that cameo.

Riese: Yeah.

Drew: Like me last week, “I’m done watching The L Word: Generation Q.” Me this week, “If they wanted me to be on it, I’d be on it.”

Riese: Right.

Analyssa: I think I’ve already made this reference, but the Lindsay Lohan thing, that’s like, “I never said that, Paris is my friend.”

Drew: Yeah, exactly.

Riese: Because I mean, Autostraddle is like a queer women’s website.

Drew: Yeah, that’d be cool to support us.

Riese: Out Magazine is technically men’s.

Drew: Yeah.

Analyssa: And we actually wouldn’t have asked Alice who the lucky lady was, probably.

Riese: No.

Drew: Maybe they know that.

Analyssa: Journalistic integrity.

Riese: But I would’ve had a lot of questions. It would’ve been like, “Your chapter about Dana. There’s nothing in it about Dana. Tell me about Dana.”

Analyssa: Dana.

Riese: Yeah. And then I would’ve been like, “So tell me more about the vampire. Do you know what happened to her?”

Drew: I would have explicitly asked about her bisexuality.

Riese: Right. Yeah.

Drew: That would have been my—

Riese: “So you’re bisexual.”

Drew: Yeah, I would’ve been like—

Analyssa: “Say more.”

Drew: I would’ve been like, “So do you feel like the acceptance of your bisexuality within women’s spaces has evolved over the years?”

Riese: Yeah. You would’ve been like—

Drew: And she would’ve been like, “I’m dating a guy named Tom.” No episode plot for her this episode. So that’s the problem.

Riese: You would’ve been like, “So Lisa…”

Drew: Yeah. “So have you talked to Lisa, where is she? How is she doing?”

Analyssa: Yeah.

Riese: God, we would’ve killed this interview.

Drew: Yeah.

Analyssa: Okay. So at the hospital—

Riese: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Drew: Oh boy.

Analyssa: …Angie, Bette, and Tina are waiting for Angie’s turn to talk to Marcus.

Drew: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Riese: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Analyssa: And they’re prepping for prom. Carrie is loaning Angie cufflinks, which Bette, of course, hates with every fiber of her being.

Angie: Carrie said I could borrow some more of her cufflinks. Is she—
Bette: Oh. You know, I have a whole drawer full of cufflinks, if you want to borrow some.
Angie: I know, but she offered.
Tina: I’ll bring them.
Bette: Okay.

Riese: Yeah. Bette has plenty of fucking cufflinks in her goddamn cufflink closet, and if, what the fuck? You know? Carrie probably only has two pairs of cufflinks, and Bette has cufflinks that were given to her by famous artists of the seventies, probably.

Drew: And then the cufflinks. I then made a note that it would’ve been a really funny joke if the episode had gone in a different direction, but instead, we’ll get to that later. But my note was Kayla’s mom comes out and says that they couldn’t get the actor who played Marcus.

Riese: Right.

Drew: Later—

Riese: That’s the joke I make in my recap, damn it!

Drew: Oh really?

Riese: Yeah.

Drew: I haven’t read it. Later, we’ll learn that they just replaced him.

Riese: Yeah.

Drew: So why did any of this have to happen? But we’ll get to that. But yeah. So Marcus doesn’t want to meet Angie. Devastation, all around.

Riese: Right.

Analyssa: Yeah. We don’t need to get into the weeds of this, but I was confused because Kayla has been hanging out with Angie, and the explanation being presented by Bette, at least, is like, their family is having a tough time adjusting to the reality.

Drew: Yeah.

Riese: Right.

Analyssa: I think later—

Riese: But they’re already there.

Drew: Yeah.

Riese: I mean, again…

Analyssa: And Kayla, again, like Marcus knows, presumably, that Kayla and Angie have been spending time together.

Drew: Yeah.

Riese: Right.

Drew: So where is Kayla?

Analyssa: What is the—

Riese: This has been discussed. I mean, she’s not writing those questions for sport.

Drew: Yeah.

Riese: It’s been discussed, they’re going to meet. It’s really weird that he would just change his mind on this one day. I thought like, “Oh, he’s literally about to die,” which turned out to be true.

Drew: Have you considered that it’s very poorly written?

Riese: I know. That’s the problem now. Last week, we turned a corner.

Drew: Yeah.

Riese: Because before that I was here, I was talking about characters in someone’s story in my recaps too. But now, I don’t trust anyone anymore.

Drew: Right.

Riese: And now, I have criticisms.

Drew: Yeah.

Riese: And one of them is that this doesn’t make any fucking sense.

Drew: Yeah.

Riese: Everyone’s going to the Marriott today. Big day for JW. Sophie’s there.

Drew: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Analyssa: She still hasn’t seen Finley.

Drew: Yeah.

Riese: Right.

Analyssa: And she’s asking Alice if Alice has heard from Finley, who’s, by the way, no longer her employee.

Riese: Why?

Analyssa: So sure.

Riese: Why would Alice have heard from Finley?

Analyssa: I do love that Finley either owns a Bird scooter or is on them so frequently—

Riese: So often.

Analyssa: …that they are part of her brand.

Riese: Yeah.

Analyssa: Because Alice is like, “Maybe she took a wrong turn on her little scooter.” And I was like, “Those are everyone’s little scooters.”

Riese: Alice, for sure, doesn’t know that those are everyone’s scooter. She’s like, “Wow. A lot of people in this apartment building must use these scooters.” She doesn’t realize they’re there for everyone.

Analyssa: They’re just all in the corner.

Riese: But also, of course, Finley would be constantly on a fucking Bird.

Drew: Have you guys ever been on Birds?

Analyssa: I refuse to do one.

Riese: I haven’t, but I have driven next to my friends while they were on Birds.

Drew: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Riese: And thought, “That looks interesting.”

Analyssa: Yeah.

Drew: Yeah.

Riese: Alice is leaving her show for 12 weeks to go on a book tour, and so they have to have a replacement host. So, that’s fine.

Analyssa: Rachel Maddow is thinking about it. Good for her.

Riese: Yeah. No, she’s not. She’s going to be like, “Kamala Harris will be your substitute host.”

Analyssa: A question for the crowd…

Drew: Yes.

Analyssa: Where are Dani and Gigi eating this breakfast?

Riese: I believe… I mean, it looks like a first floor, right?

Analyssa: It looks like—

Riese: And they both live on higher floors.

Analyssa: It looks like the patio of a hotel. I don’t… Whatever.

Riese: I just want to live a life of strawberries for breakfast. You know what I mean?

Drew: I know.

Analyssa: These bitches are living luxuriously.

Drew: Yeah.

Riese: Yeah.

Drew: I really wish that they weren’t on the wrong side of this debate so I could enjoy their hotness and their strawberries. But Dani’s upset about Bette’s protest being in the newspaper. Dani’s also going to Eli’s recorder concert later, and Gigi says she’ll bring edibles.

Riese: I love that.

Drew: So Gigi’s fun mom.

Riese: I was like, “This is very authentic.”

Drew: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Riese: “This rings true.”

Drew: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Riese: And Dani is also prepping for her dad’s trial, which is happening incredibly fast.

Drew: Yeah.

Riese: We don’t even know what he’s in trouble for.

Drew: I don’t know anything.

Analyssa: In this show—

Riese: But I also don’t care.

Drew: Right.

Analyssa: Right. I don’t actually wish that the timeline on this was dragged out. But in this show, things you can do overnight. Ready? Go to trial.

Riese: Have an entire relationship.

Analyssa: Organize a poker fundraiser gala for MS.

Riese: Yeah.

Drew: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Analyssa: Organize this protest.

Drew: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Riese: Right. It’s been 36 hours. I mean, later in the day, it’s been 36… At this point, it’s been 24 hours since she last saw Finley. So we’re… And Alice said, “I saw Finley last night.”

Drew: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Riese: So this is the next day somehow, this protest.

Drew: Right.

Analyssa: It’s been 12 hours, max.

Drew: Yeah.

Analyssa: I thought of another one. Oh, buy a high-rise condo with your dad’s money.

Drew: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Riese: Right.

Analyssa: You can do that in one day.

Riese: Yeah.

Drew: Yeah.

Analyssa: Imagine if all of our days were as productive as the people in The L Word.

Drew: Yeah.

Analyssa: We would be cruising through life.

Riese: My days are not this productive, because all I do all day is write about the fucking L Word.

Analyssa: Anyway, speaking of hating your parents the way that Dani hates her dad, Angie is mad at Tina and Bette—

Riese: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Analyssa: Because of not being able to be Marcus.

Riese: Tina and Bette are hosting a lit pre-prom party with a lot of fancy hors d’oeuvres.

Drew: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Analyssa: There are so many little dumb finger foods. And it’s like, nice, but also just give these kids some pizza rolls.

Drew: Yeah.

Analyssa: Who gives a shit? Alice brings booze for the teens and for the adults.

Riese: Yeah. And they’re like, “Alice, this is children.” She’s like, “It’s prom.”

Drew: Yeah.

Riese: And I’m like, “Right. But you’re not supposed to give them alcohol at prom.”

Drew: They have to get it.

Analyssa: Right. You have to sneak it.

Riese: You have to—

Drew: Or you have to sneak it to them if you’re like cool aunt.

Riese: Yeah. Hello, we all saw — well, you didn’t see because you guys were fetuses at the time — but when Donna Martin in 90210 got drunk at prom, and then she almost didn’t graduate.

Drew: Oh no.

Analyssa: Wow.

Riese: And you know who gave her alcohol? It was the parents?

Drew: Ooh.

Analyssa: Wow.

Riese: Yeah. Because she hadn’t eaten all day, because it was the nineties so people still had storylines where, “We have to fit into this dress so we’re not going to eat all day.” You know what I mean?

Drew: Right. Yeah.

Analyssa: Right.

Riese: And anyway, so she got drunk. It was her first time drinking. And then everyone had to go outside the school and be like, “Donna Martin graduates.” It’s a very important moment of TV history.

Drew: Wow.

Riese: And you guys should watch it sometime.

Drew: Okay. I did just watch Glee for the first time last year. So I’m a little behind.

Riese: Right. Well, you should get it on DVD because all the music is different online.

Drew: Oh, well, then that’s good to know. I do like that Alice says—

Alice: Hey, happy prom, you guys. I love prom, okay? I went all four years.

Drew: That’s a very good character detail.

Riese: Yeah.

Drew: I love Leisha’s delivery.

Riese: And it fits right in with her being in a punk band, as we learned in season one.

Drew: Yeah, but it is funny.

Riese: Yeah, it’s funny.

Drew: It fits contemporary Alice.

Riese: Yeah.

Analyssa: I went to two proms. I went my sophomore year and my senior year.

Drew: I went to—

Riese: I went junior and senior year.

Drew: I went to zero proms, which I can get into.

Riese: Wow.

Analyssa: Yeah. Wow.

Drew: But yeah. So a little sore spot, but you know, I’m not in high school anymore. Let’s celebrate that.

Riese: Yeah, that’s great.

Analyssa: Speaking of sore spots, Dani is trial prepping.

Drew: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Riese: Yeah. And her dad just storms in, he’s mad about the LA Times story. “How’d you let this happen?” And she’s like, “The CAC won’t let it happen. They won’t be bullied by artists.” And he tells her to make it go away. And I think that everyone should make it go away.

Analyssa: I was—

Riese: I don’t like the story, and I want it to be over. I don’t care for it.

Analyssa: I also want… My note says, “Dani’s dad wants us to go away. I want this to go away, just for different reasons.”

Drew: Yeah.

Analyssa: I did think that the line—

Dani: Hi, dad. We were just talking about how good of a father you are.

Analyssa: …was really funny.

Riese: Oh yeah, that was cute. Yeah. I like that.

Analyssa: That’s all I had to say about this.

Drew: Yeah. Okay. Moving on to, back to prom party, Jordi is trying to put on, is it called a corsage on the—

Riese: Yeah.

Analyssa: Boutonnière.

Drew: Boutonnière. Thank you.

Riese: Oh. Boutonnière.

Analyssa: Corsage is on the wrist.

Drew: The wrist. Right. Okay.

Analyssa: If it’s got a pin, it’s a boutonnière.

Drew: Incredible.

Riese: Good note for my recap.

Drew: Putting a boutonnière on and—

Riese: Boutonnière. That’s quite a word.

Drew: And Angie’s—

Analyssa: Those are really difficult, by the way.

Drew: Oh yeah?

Analyssa: At my high school, we always made parents do them.

Drew: Oh.

Analyssa: I never pinned a boutonnière on a boy that I was going with. I always had—

Drew: Yeah.

Analyssa: There was always some mom or dad or a handful of them who could do it. And that was just the time.

Drew: That’s why you’re gay now.

Analyssa: And that’s why I’m gay. So true.

Drew: Jordi asks if Angie can postpone her pissed offness, which I thought was sweet.

Riese: A fair question.

Analyssa: I was going to say, I’m kind of on Jordi’s side in this whole thing about prom.

Drew: Oh yeah.

Analyssa: I don’t know. It’s a party. I mean, that is not to say that Angie is not so justified in being upset.

Drew: Sure.

Analyssa: It’s just the—

Riese: Well, is she?

Analyssa: I don’t know.

Riese: I can understand that she’s in a bad mood, but she’s mad at Bette and Tina just because she wants to be mad at somebody.

Drew: She’s a teenager.

Riese: Yeah. She’s a teen. And also, you know what would’ve been great character development or something wild like that for this show is that they could have been brought up that maybe part of the reason Jordi is upset about this is because Angie’s both moms are there throwing this amazing party with these incredible hors d’oeuvres, you know?

Analyssa: With these fancy foods.

Riese: While meanwhile, Jordi’s parents don’t even give a shit that she exists.

Drew: Right.

Analyssa: Right.

Drew: Yeah, that would be an interesting thing. I also wish that maybe they could have established that Angie’s mad at her parents because they could have said something more. You know?

Riese: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Drew: Because that’s where we sort of get to eventually, where Tina’s like, “You could have pushed back more.” And what if Angie had said that? So it didn’t feel so much like, “Oh, this upset teenager, upset at the wrong people.”

Riese: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Drew: Obviously, she’s projecting a little bit, which is allowed, she’s a teenager. But also, there is some justification because it is like, “Wait, that happened in five seconds, and you wanted that anyway.” She does say at one point like, “This is what she wanted.” But I could have had a little bit more of that.

Riese: Yeah.

Analyssa: Yes. Angie’s really mad, and Tina wants Alice to take Carrie’s cufflinks up to her. Basically, Tina and Bette are like, “She’s going to kill us if we engage with her at all.”

Riese: Right.

Drew: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Riese: Shane and Tess show up.

Analyssa: Everyone is weird about it, because—

Riese: Yeah. Everyone’s so excited.

Analyssa: …Alice is Alice.

Drew: Tess asks if she can help, and Tina’s like, “Yeah, of course.” Which I so was not expecting though. I was expecting her to be like, “No, no, no we’re good.”

Riese: Yeah.

Drew: But Tina was like—

Riese: What did she say, “Bring this plate into the other room”?

Drew: Yeah. I was like, “What?”

Riese: I would have been like, “That’s not a good task. Give me a real task here.”

Analyssa: Also, and then is like, “I love her,” to Shane, she mouths it.

Riese: Right. You just met her.

Analyssa: I was like, “You have said four words to her.”

Riese: So all you mean is that she’s hot and you like her boots, probably. And also, it is funny because Shane has beer, and Bette is like, “They’re teenagers.”

Drew: Right.

Riese: And she’s like, “It’s prom.”

Drew: Yeah, that was good.

Riese: That was cute. That was one of five second moments in this episode that I didn’t hate.

Analyssa: Sophie in her car?

Riese: Yeah, Sophie in her car.

Drew: Yeah. She’s calling the Sheriff.

Riese: Why would Finley be in jail? Because she was just in jail? She thinks she went back to jail, as a place to sleep?

Analyssa: Finley got a punch card when she went to jail and now she’s back to punch it again.

Riese: Right. Exactly. She wants to get her 10th stay free without — why would Finley be in jail? She doesn’t have a car, famously doesn’t have a car.

Drew: That she calls the Sheriff’s department before hospitals is so baffling and doesn’t feel like that’s something Sophie would do.

Riese: I also feel like, again, the show does not want to address disparities in how people of color versus white people are treated by the police. The chance that Finley was just picked up off the street for public intoxication, pretty fucking slim. Call the hospital.

Analyssa: Yeah. But it’s a family birthday. So we have to go put on a smiley face. Micah is there and helping prep for the party, so there’s a lot of plus ones trying to carry their weight this episode. And then Sophie leaves again, to call more places because she’s distracted. Basically Sophie’s distracted the whole time she’s at this party, she’s like, “No, no, it’s fine. I’m here.” And then she’s like, “Actually, I have to go do something else.” So she’s like, “I can help in the kitchen.” She goes into the kitchen to start helping, and then she’s like, “I have to leave.” And luckily Sophie’s mom is here to botch this convo.

Drew: Yeah. She says to Maribel, “Well at least you don’t have to worry about, I’m so happy you don’t have to worry about all that dating crap.” Which feels like such a forced example of, “Ooh, this mom is ableist.” Where we’re like, Maribel dates a lot. We’ve seen her date a lot. Her mom would know that she dates a lot. This is just such a clumsy attempt to show ableism.

Riese: And also when Maribel’s like, “Oh, my mom thinks that no one will ever date me.” And her Mom’s like “No, no, no, that’s not what I said.” Yeah. That literally is exactly what you just said. What were you saying?

Drew: There’s so many ways in which it could have been subtler and still have hit, but they don’t care about that because it’s—

Analyssa: I just am so… bored of families of color, especially — and I’ll speak from my experience because I’m a white Latina — but sometimes your family does understand you. And people who write TV, especially about characters of color, do not understand that obviously there are parents who are not supportive of any number of identities that their kids have. And sometimes that is a friction point, even in very supportive families, but they’re not always just fucking ableist or transphobic as we see later or homophobic. It’s so boring as a conflict to me.

Drew: It’s also not—

Riese: It’s also inconsistent.

Drew: It’s so inconsistent with—

Riese: Sophie’s family was set up as they’re really accepting of her and Dani’s family isn’t accepting of her.

Analyssa: Right. And like Drew said, they’ve seen Maribel date, a lot presumably, because she’s always talking about going on dates. And she’s very close with them.

Drew: And there are, even in a supportive family, there are smaller microaggressions that happen, and would be great to portray. And instead of doing that, they’re just — it’s so lazy and boring and I hate it.

Riese: Yeah. And also then they’re like, “Oh, Micah, you’ll make some man so happy some day.” And I mean, I guess there’s a better time talking about this. I have no fucking idea why she hasn’t told them she’s dating Micah. I have no idea. Anyway.

Analyssa: Speaking of another thing I don’t really understand, we’re back at the CAC, Dani is there to try to do damage control. And she appeals to the director of CAC’s sentimentality about her family brand. I’m like, “This guy doesn’t care.”

Drew: There’s also just no portrayal of Dani having any grasp on the morality of this, which, I guess that’s fine if that’s what you want her character to be. But it’s just baffling to me that — this could have been more interesting if it was Dani feeling torn between her dad and her morals and her mommy Bette. That could have been so much more interesting and instead, there’s no sign that Dani has any grasp. It’s all of a sudden — I don’t understand. I don’t understand. I don’t know.

Analyssa: There’s also an interesting version — Bette sort of hinted at this last episode — of someone sort of taking Dani to task, and maybe this will happen, but I don’t have high hopes, for being a white Latina and thinking she’s doing good. And actually in the process being anti-Black or working against the interests of Black artists, that is something that happens in communities of color, and is a conversation. That’s also not there. So it’s like they’ve taken both of the—

Riese: Yeah. They will never, ever address differences between people of color or anything.

Analyssa: They put up these scenarios that could be interesting, like with Sophie’s family or with this conflict. And you’re like, “Oh, this could be a cool thing if they dug into, oh, that’s not what they’re going to dig into. Okay. Got it, got it, got it.”

Riese: Let’s make this as empty as possible. We still don’t understand at all what their actual involvement with opioids is. I still have no clue. And also really? There’s not a single artist who would show their work in that wing? I’m pretty sure there’s quite a few who would.

Drew: Well, now we at least get to move on to my favorite moment of the episode, which is when Alice is talking about bi-phobia and she asks Angie if she should tell the world she’s dating a man, and Angie just yells—

Angie: Nobody cares.
Alice: Oh. Straightforward. Okay. I can appreciate that.

Drew: And that is how I felt, and I loved it.

Riese: That was also my favorite moment of the episode. I was like, yes. And Alice is like, “I could appreciate that.” That was a highlight.

Analyssa: Another highlight hilariously is that Alice keeps asking Bette for advice and Bette keeps going. “I can’t answer that.” Bette keeps pleading the fifth.

Riese: Yeah what are you, Elizabeth Holmes? Yeah, fucking answer the question. “I can’t recall. I can’t recall.”

Analyssa: She just won’t weigh in.

Riese: “I can’t recall. I can’t recall.”

Analyssa: I think that’s so funny as a character trait. Your friend is being like, “What do you think I should do?” “Oh, I can’t tell you.” It’s so caring too. It comes from a place of, I don’t know where, but it just makes me laugh every time I kind of love it for her.

Riese: Alice says, “The problem is you, capital L lesbians.” But then she doesn’t actually explain actual biphobia practiced by lesbians. She says some — I didn’t even write it down because I don’t care. Because it was stupid.

Analyssa: She quotes something that I think Bette said on the original. She quotes it, like, Bette made one joke one time that was biphobic, and that’s how biphobia is perpetrated by lesbians. And I was like, well…

Riese: Also, I love all these literature reporters knocking down Alice’s story for personal gossip. Angie meets Tess. And Tina — first of all, I do think everybody’s outfits looked good with everyone else’s outfits this season, in this scene I want to say. And I did like the basic idea of this being a day in Los Angeles where there’s these events and people are coming in and out and they’re bringing — that felt very authentic. I’m literally, I’m really… grasping for straws here.

Drew: I can get on board with liking that there were events in Los Angeles.

Riese: People going to each other’s homes on a Saturday or whatever, fucking who knows goddamn this whole season has been four days long. So Tina thanks Tess and Shane for getting Carrie home and Tess is like, “For what it’s worth, I liked Carrie a lot.” And I’m like, did you?

Analyssa: Tess also calls her Eeyore, which I think is kind of a backhanded compliment. She says it in like a—

Riese: She says Shane is Eeyore, too.

Analyssa: It’s all weird.

Drew: Yeah, it’s a very weird moment.

Riese: But why are they lying to — when Tina was like “Did anything happen with Bette?” They’re like, “No, no, not at all.”

Drew: They say later it’s not our business, cause later—

Analyssa: I think they’re covering for Bette and don’t want to get in the middle of the drama.

Riese: Well, that’s shitty.

Analyssa: Yeah, I agree.

Drew: Yeah, it is. It’s not great.

Riese: I know Tina’s not on the main cast—

Drew: They should just be like, “You have to talk to Bette about that because we don’t want to get in the middle of it.” And actually Shane should say that because Tess is trying to make nice with her friends. So Shane should be like, “We’re not going to actually talk about that, but you should talk to Carrie, your fiance, and Bette, your ex-wife.”

Analyssa: “It seems like Carrie was upset, maybe you should chat with her.” So yeah. Tess does think that Shane should tell Tina, Shane disagrees, but then the two of them start hooking up in the bathroom.

Riese: Well Tess says that Shane should tell Tina that Carrie said she was having doubts, which I actually agree, I don’t think she should tell her that, but she should tell her that she was having a rough time and that she seemed to feel like she didn’t fit in.

Analyssa: Like there was something going on—

Riese: Yeah, that something bad happened with Bette. She felt like she didn’t fit in with all these LA lesbians, and they should maybe talk about it, but not she said, “She didn’t know if she could marry you.”

Analyssa: Especially just saying that one sentence without context is assuredly what the show would have Shane do, and that is egregious.

Riese: I did like it when the teenage boy walked in the room and they were like, “Get out of here.” And then Tess was like, “Oh my God, we scarred him.” And Shane was like.

Shane: It was the best day of his life.

Riese: I thought that was funny. So there we go, a moment to highlight.

Analyssa: I just — Ana speaking for Ana. Sex while 17 teenagers are next door, got to be low on the list in types of sex. Nope. Not in this place. Sophie calls Tess. And so then Tess is going to leave and is like, “I have to go handle this.” This is all happening while prom photos are being taken. And these are the worst stage prom photos I’ve ever seen.

Riese: Yeah, go outside?

Analyssa: First of all, go outside. You’re in Los Angeles. It’s very sunny. I’m sure.

Riese: I’m sure that Bette has a great fucking view.

Analyssa: Secondly, you can’t see half the kids. Back in my day, we all lined up in one row. Angie seems to have a lot of friends over, so okay, maybe two. Talls in the back, smalls in the front. Bette seems to only be taking photos of like Jordi and Angie in a little window — whatever.

Riese: Yeah. But what’s important is that they have three people with phones, all standing in a row taking a picture, because one of those is going to be a winner.

Drew: That’s the thought.

Riese: And then Tess comes in and says that she has to leave because she wants to see if Finley is passed out at the bar because Sophie hasn’t found her. And then Angie is still preoccupied with her drama and Jordi is upset about it.

Drew: And then Angie starts to have a panic attack of sorts, burst into tears. It all feels right for prom, in my opinion, based on my prom experiences.

Riese: Well, she’s also like, “It’s your donor that’s the asshole, not your moms or me.” And I’m like, is it? What is happening?

Analyssa: Speaking of parties where people are fighting, Sophie’s grandma’s birthday is happening.

Drew: Why would Maribel rat out Sophie when she also has this secret that she’s dating Micah, it makes no sense. And also why in general, would she do that? She’s close with Sophie. Why this season where we’re like, “Oh, we’d love if Maribel had more of a character.” And they were like, “So she should stop.”

Riese: She should be really mean. Right?

Drew: She should just be mean. That’s the character. Right?

Riese: She should always pick fights.

Drew: And we’re like, “But, why?”

Riese: I sort of enjoyed Sophie and Mari sparring, that was like fun sibling bullshit, but also what they were sparring about. I agreed. What in the world is happening? What are you doing?

Analyssa: I mean, I think she does not like Finley for Sophie. But again, I mean, we’re getting into the thing that we always do, and Drew does most of all. Which is, in my head, this is how it goes. Yeah, I guess it comes from a place of being worried about Sophie and not liking Finley for Sophie, but it feels—

Drew: It’s once again poorly written, because the show is not communicating to us that Maribel sucks. I said that fliply, but that’s no—

Riese: No, she’s funny.

Drew: Yeah. She’s great. But they keep writing these moments for her that are like, wait, why are you doing that to this character? Why are you making this character unreasonable in this way or illogical in this way? It’s very frustrating. Also very frustrating is then Sophie reveals that Micah and Mari are dating and Sophie’s grandma is like, “Isn’t he a trans?”

Riese: The moment where they were both like, “You can’t say a trans” felt like a very authentic parent talking to children about a trans person moment. But other than that, I was just like, “What the flying fuck is happening here?”

Drew: Also why would she—

Riese: Why was that said at all?

Drew: Yeah. Why would she have an issue with it? There’s just no — Micah’s probably been around because he’s been friends—

Riese: They seem to know him.

Drew: Yeah. It’s just so—

Riese: He used to date Dani.

Drew: I mean, that’s what you were saying earlier. It’s just so fucking annoying. I just hate it so much. It’s so fucking annoying.

Analyssa: Agreed. It’s very funny to me that Micah is just sitting there eating his food trying to ignore the chaos.

Drew: Also they don’t subtitle it, so I don’t speak Spanish—

Riese: I listened to it a million times to try to understand what they were saying.

Analyssa: I mean, basically they’re saying they’re worried, they want to know how serious it is, and then there was something that her mom asked that I couldn’t catch. I listened to it four times. And she’s like, “What do you mean? What do you mean by that?” And her mom’s like, “You know what I mean.” So there’s something going on. I don’t know.

Riese: I downloaded it, Google translate, after listening to it several times and not being able to parse out what it was. I downloaded Google translate app to try to translate it. And that part, whatever it is, her mom said, I couldn’t get anything of it.

Analyssa: Yeah. I wonder if it’s slang. I don’t know what Sophie’s family lineage is, or heritage is in the show, but Rosanny Zayas is Dominican, and I wonder if it’s a more colloquial Spanish, because my family is Mexican and speak Spanish, but I don’t speak Spanish super well. So I could understand them, but only to a certain extent.

Riese: Right. We do understand that Micah understands, that she does say that she loves him.

Drew: Yes.

Analyssa: Correct.

Riese: However, they, for some inane reason went over this last week.

Drew: Yes, they did already cover this.

Analyssa: Did she not say anything back last week?

Riese: She did, I think.

Drew: Yeah, I don’t know.

Analyssa: Or did they just kiss?

Drew: And then after all this Micah says—

Riese: I think she basically consented that she also loved him because he said, “I think you love me too.” And she was like smooch. I think. Smooch. Speaking of people doing insufferable things for incomprehensible reasons.

Analyssa: Dani is lying to Gigi about going to Eli’s recital. She was like, “There was lots of traffic.” One, the only other note I have about the scene, because I really, I don’t understand why she did it. I don’t care. Dani has changed the settings of her AirPods, so she’s only wearing one. And I would like to know the hack because I think that wearing two at the same time is very annoying if you’re trying to engage with the world around you.

Riese: I have one more thing to add, which is that in LA you can’t really lie about there being traffic, because people tend to know if there’s traffic.

Drew: And there’s always traffic.

Riese: And there’s always traffic.

Drew: Which she says later, but—

Analyssa: So you should just plan for that. It’s a bad excuse.

Drew: Yeah. If someone says there’s traffic, my response is — I saw my parents for the first time in a while yesterday, and my dad was picking me up from, we were meeting somewhere and my dad was, “Ah, there’s traffic.” And I was like, that’s fine. But obviously there’s traffic. It’s the 101.

Riese: Yeah. Like why lie?

Drew: And why lie? It makes no sense.

Riese: Why lie?

Drew: Just literally—

Riese: Just say—

Drew: Just say I’m so swamped with work.

Riese: I’ve had a really terrible—

Drew: And I want to meet your kid when I’m not like—

Riese: In a bad mood.

Drew: In this bad mood, head space. Why’d you say that? Just fucking say that.

Riese: Just say that. Yeah. If you’re going to lie, cover something up. Kill someone, cheat on someone and then lie about it. Don’t just fucking lie about nothing.

Drew: So then back up at the disastrous prom party, Bette tells Jordi to go to prom alone, which I think is bad advice personally. Like I think she should be like—

Analyssa: I think if there’s anything to do, I mean, I don’t have children. I’m not a parent. I should say that up front.

Riese: Well, you are very close to Carol.

Analyssa: It’s so true. Carol is sort of, in this moment, my daughter. And what I would do if my daughter Carol were in her room on prom night crying, I might send Carol’s girlfriend up just to see how it goes. Maybe Jordi goes up like, just to say, “Hey, I’m going to leave.” It feels like Bette is just basically standing in front of the stairs being like, “You must leave.” It feels like everyone is confused about how to handle Angie, because she seems to mostly be a happy and goes-with-the-plans kind of kid. So this is throwing a wrench in it.

Drew: Well Angie’s role in the family is to be the parent, and so this is the first time we’ve ever seen Angie really act like a teenager where she’s not making a detailed list and doing all these things that are really responsible or taking care of Bette while Bette cries. Instead, Angie’s being a little bit irrational and a little bit upset and they cannot handle having an actual child.

Analyssa: Does me categorizing Angie’s behavior — which you just said is being the parent, and I agree — as “she’s just a happy normal kid,” say anything about my own upbringing and what I think—?

Drew: Does the tone of the anger in my voice reflect anything about mine?

Riese: I would say that if this was my house, my mom would go upstairs and open the door and she’d be like, “Get your fucking shit together. That girl is down there.”

Analyssa: There’s someone here.

Riese: “We just spent—” She’d give me an itemized amount of how much was spent on the hors d’oeuvres, and all the pictures they took, and how much the suit costs, and that they got the suit tailored, and I would be out the door. My mom would put concealer over my crying eyes, and send me to fucking prom.

Drew: Well, instead she sends Jordi outside, and then Tina turns on Bette. And Bette’s like “All I said to Carrie was that we didn’t have to be best friends.” Which I guess is a type of truth.

Analyssa: What’s not a type of truth is she says—

Bette: You know what, actually, I was nice. I was nicer than that. Oh Jesus.

Drew: That is not true.

Analyssa: Right, that’s so far from true.

Riese: But also, I really appreciate Tina was like, “Why did you tell Jordi that Angie was going to come to prom,” and she was like, “I didn’t want to ruin her bad time” or make her — bring her down or whatever. And then Tina’s segue is so clumsy. She’s like, “Well obviously speaking of people who had a bad time, what did you say to Carrie?”

Analyssa: Tina’s doing like—

Riese: Tina’s doing a podcast segue—

Analyssa: Tina’s doing a To L and Back transition, right? “Speaking of you making people sad…”

Drew: Okay. So then Pippa arrives, which, was that planned? I was a little confused about this. Was Pippa invited to the party?

Riese: I don’t know but it’s an hour from Topanga?

Analyssa: No, I think it was a surprise because she’s bringing the news that they have been featured in the LA Times, which is so fast. Oh, another thing you can do in one day.

Riese: Right, also. So this means Pippa and Bette, but wasn’t last night their like—

Drew: Reconciliation?

Analyssa: Yeah, last night they were like, “We can burn shit down together.” Then this morning was the protest.

Riese: So they’ve been dating for three days.

Analyssa: Then it was the prom. And then the LA times came out with a photo of their protest. Okay.

Riese: Right. But also Sophie said it had been 36 hours since she saw Finley. So was there a time jump?

Drew: I don’t know.

Analyssa: Once again.

Riese: Maybe there was a time jump between hotel day and prom day.

Drew: Yeah, so it’s been another day.

Riese: Oh, okay. So it’s been one other day,

Analyssa: Alright. Yeah. Fair. I mean not, but, sure.

Riese: But also, I mean, it will never be resolved, but what the fuck is, where is Finley? So yeah Pippa was like, “We did it, we ruined Dani’s life.”

Drew: She also says that Jordi is crying in the driveway. Well, she says a girl, there’s a girl crying in the driveway.

Analyssa: Hilariously, Tina’s like, “Oh my God, you’re Pippa Pascal.” And you know how you see people’s art in galleries? And then you know exactly what they look like for the rest of your life 20 years later, you’re like, “Oh my God, that’s her.”

Drew: My only defense is that—

Riese: I mean, I could, I could spot Basquiat in a room, I’ll tell you that.

Drew: Is that Bette has presented a world where she’s been obsessed with Pippa Pascal for decades. So even though we never saw this on the original series, I’m assuming whenever we weren’t watching, when it was ever off camera, she was going on and on about how much she loved Pippa Pascal.

Riese: I don’t know if I could ID Georgia O’Keeffe in a lineup.

Analyssa: Right. That’s what I’m saying. She was so obsessed that she had a framed photo of Pippa on their mantelpiece for 20 years?

Drew: It’s a good point. It’s a good point.

Analyssa: I believe that—

Riese: What does Edward Hopper look like?

Analyssa: I would believe that—

Riese: Norman Rockwell, I would spot him.

Analyssa: I almost, when I was thinking of this joke to make on the pod, just like coming up with my little bits, I was like, Andy Warhol was the only person I could think of. And I was like, “I could pick that guy for sure.”

Riese: Frida Kahlo.

Analyssa: Frida Kahlo, very recognizable.

Drew: Maybe Pippa’s art has a lot of self portraits. I don’t know. I’m trying here.

Analyssa: I believe that Tina could pick Pippa’s art out of a lineup because she was married to Bette. That I believe.

Riese: I could definitely spot the guy who played Diego Rivera in Frida.

Drew: You mean Alfred Molina?

Riese: Yeah.

Analyssa: I could pick Alfred Molina in a lineup.

Riese: Actually I feel like there’s quite a few artists I could spot, but not very many.

Drew: And not one that you were like, “Oh, I saw your show 20 years ago with Bette.”

Riese: Yeah, never.

Drew: Okay. So the CAC is taking down the Nunez wing.

Analyssa: The Nunez wing is no more.

Riese: How are they going to fund the museum now? From some really ethical company?

Analyssa: Don’t ask questions that you don’t want answers to, Riese, because the answer to that question will take up a whole other episode.

Drew: I said, “I once again, wish this was more exciting. And I would like to see artists being called and the coordination of this change happen. If we have to have the storyline at least like make it zoomy, you know.”

Analyssa: What was that intro to The L Word? Was it the wrap party episode where they’re all calling each other being like—

Riese: That’s the poker party.

Drew: Yeah, that’s the poker party. That’s my favorite episode of The L Word ever. That’s what I’m wanting. But with artists.

Analyssa: We did get one win, which was, I think this is a Drew fave, when Jennifer Beals does her crying into laughing situation, or her laughing into crying situation.

Riese: I just hate how they’re…whatever.

Analyssa: Speaking of crying.

Riese: Oh, Alice and Shane have gone and talked to Angie. That was a good move, and they’re like, “It’s his loss if he doesn’t want to meet you.”

Analyssa: Angie’s makeup, I would just want to note, still perfectly intact. Whatever setting spray they used on her face.

Riese: And it wasn’t uUban Decay. Cause that’s an urban myth that that shit works.

Analyssa: That is an urban legend you’re so right. I did love the gay aunts are like shining up here. They’re really supportive. They’re saying all the right things. They’re like, “You should go to prom cause it’ll be fun, or fucking blow off prom if you don’t want to go. Either is fine.”

Drew: Shane’s very anti-prom, which I think is very funny, and fits. Jordan Hull is so good.

Analyssa: Jordan Hull is so good.

Riese: She is really good.

Drew: She’s so good in this scene.

Analyssa: So Tina didn’t know she was dating Pippa, I guess.

Drew: Yeah. And then they kiss in front of Tina, which is a very strange thing to do with like — I just wouldn’t kiss my girlfriend in front of my ex-wife, generally.

Riese: No. Well also, she’s like “How long have you been seeing Pippa.” And Bette’s like, “not long” but she says it in the way that it’s supposed to seem like it has been a long time, but it hasn’t, it has been three days.

Analyssa: And then Bette is like, “Maybe we should go back.” And for one second I saw Tina’s eyes light up, and I heard the eyes of all the Tibette shippers out there, light up. And then Bette goes, “I meant back to the hospital.” Tina was hoping that she meant back to boning while there was stir-fry on the stove.

Riese: Really?

Analyssa: I think so.

Riese: But Tina is the one who left Bette.

Drew: No, I don’t know.

Analyssa: I’m just telling you what I saw on Laurel Holloman’s face, dude.

Riese: You saw something on her face somehow?

Analyssa: I saw her make that face. She’s hopeful.

Riese: Interesting.

Drew: Also, Angie has gone to prom. Angie did decide to go to prom.

Riese: Oh, great.

Drew: That also was established.

Analyssa: Micah and Maribel are cuddled up watching Netflix. If Netflix exists in The L Word universe, are these bitches able to watch the first six seasons of The L Word?

Riese: Apparently not, because no one—

Analyssa: On Netflix?

Riese: …on this team remembers that Alice and Bette dated and finger banged at the opera. I am certain of that.

Drew: Just like Shane. I’ll never forget that.

Analyssa: That’s Micah and Mari’s favorite scene.

Riese: I know. And I’m like, Drew will never forget that. And so, you guys should respect her by remembering it.

Drew: This is when Micah’s like, “I don’t speak Spanish, but I know the word amor.” And again, they said that last episode. I don’t understand what the big deal is. And then he just says that he could see being her “esposo” someday. What the fuck is happening? God.

Analyssa: Really intense. Really, really deep in there.

Riese: I mean, we still don’t even know what happened—

Drew: Have they ever gone out as not friends, like to a restaurant? Anything, on a date?

Riese: Why was he mad that he was talking to a guy at the karaoke bar?

Drew: It’s so rushed and terrible.

Riese: Why did they talk for a week after that?

Analyssa: And again—

Riese: Has the crisis at the border been solved?

Drew: Maybe if Micah—

Riese: No, that’s a new crisis at the CAC.

Drew: Maybe if Micah was in every episode, there would be more time for the storyline to not feel rushed. Said that last week, say it again this week.

Riese: Well, you know who they could come cut out of this whole fucking shebang? Is fucking Dani’s dad. And then we’d all get a bunch of time back. I mean, I get the feeling from on the set photos they like him, the actor, like they’re all friends. Maybe that’s why he keeps being in it.

Drew: That’s nice of them.

Riese: I’ve had enough.

Analyssa: I’ve had enough.

Riese: I’ve had quite enough.

Drew: They were friends with Erin Daniels and they killed her.

Analyssa: What if they did—

Riese: Big regret.

Analyssa: What if they did a real soap opera thing and killed Dani’s dad, but then he came back as her uncle or something and was just there to have fun.

Drew: A very nice uncle.

Analyssa: I don’t know, flirt with Alice or something. Who knows?

Drew: Ooh, fun.

Riese: Yeah. That’s fun.

Analyssa: That could be fun.

Riese: Yeah. Bette and Tina are at the hospital and Bette is on the phone talking about her victory at the CAC.

Analyssa: And Tina hates it because she above all wants Bette to just be nice to Carrie. Then Tina asks Bette—

Tina: Are you still in love with me?

Riese: And then, surprise! Time to see Marcus.

Drew: Yep. And if Bette chooses Tina over Pippa. I don’t even know. I don’t even know. What am I going to do? I’m powerless. I have no control. I have no control in Hollywood. I have no control over the writers from The L Word: Generation Q. What am I going to do?

Analyssa: I have Drew—

Drew: Talk about it on this podcast. That’s what I’m going to do.

Analyssa: I have Drew tied up to the sofa in our living room with eyeballs held open watching this show.

Riese: I just don’t want Carrie to be sad again.

Analyssa: We don’t want Carrie to be sad anymore.

Riese: Also, Pippa obviously has trust issues, and if Bette fucks her over, I do not want Pippa or Carrie to get wronged.

Drew: No.

Riese: I’m more concerned about them than I am about Bette and Tina, honestly.

Drew: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.

Analyssa: I was just about to say, something interesting about Gen Q is that they’ve given us all of these new characters. I would take a bullet for most of these people and I don’t want them to be hurt, but Alice, Bette, and Tina, and Shane, I don’t know. Shit happens. Adult life is hard.

Drew: If Tina leaves Carrie, maybe Gigi can fuck her brains out. I would, I would watch a Gigi Rosie O’Donnell sex scene.

Riese: I don’t think Rosie O’Donnell would ever in a million years do a sex scene.

Analyssa: You think?

Drew: I would love it though.

Riese: Yeah. It would be fun.

Analyssa: She could have a really ironclad nudity clause.

Riese: So does Bette.

Analyssa: Jennifer Beals.

Riese: Jennifer Beals, who is never going to let us see her boobs.

Drew: She doesn’t have to show us her boobs. It could just be like—

Analyssa: We sound like teenagers. “Show us your boobs!”

Drew: Show us your boobs, Rosie!

Riese: It’s not so much that she won’t show us her boobs as it is that people keep bras on for so long in these sex scenes. I find that to be unethical.

Drew: No, just get more creative. It’s very silly.

Analyssa: The representation of—

Drew: I don’t even wear bras when I’m not having sex.

Analyssa: I was just about to say, representation fails because I know lesbians, to quote Alice. I know a lot of lesbians. Odds that all of them are wearing a bra in one room at any given point?

Riese: Slim.

Analyssa: Slim.

Riese: Especially first season, we’ve had lots of no bra representation. Dani didn’t wear a bra. Sophie didn’t wear a bra. I mean, Shane has never worn a bra, so that’s accurate at least. Anyway, the point of this is that Gigi and Dani, is that where we are now?

Drew: We are at Gigi and Dani. And Gigi tells Dani that Eli got a bloody nose. And then Dani’s like, “I didn’t, I wasn’t. I lied.” And then she gets mad.

Analyssa: That’s actually not what happens. What happens is that Dani fucks up her lie. And here’s my thing. If you’re going to lie about, as Riese said earlier, nothing, at least be good at it. If you’re just going to lie to make your life more convenient for the evening so you don’t have to do a whole conversation with Gigi about why you bailed on her kid’s recital, stick to the lie. She goes, “Yeah, sorry I couldn’t make it. I just had such a long day.” And Gigi’s like, “Didn’t you say there was traffic?”

Riese: I think if I was in Gigi’s position at this point, I might just call it off.

Drew: Oh yeah. I’m done.

Analyssa: But this has opened up the door for some of Gigi’s favorite things to do, which is communicate.

Drew: I said, Gigi loves this, LOL.

Riese: Gigi is hot for communication.

Analyssa: She loves to tell people how she’s feeling. And I love that for her. She says that Dani’s being hurtful and that the things that Dani’s doing are hurting her.

Riese: Then she hugs her. And then Dani’s like, “I told Finley no one holds me when I’m sad.” And I’m like, yeah, you’re realizing what I realized after writing the recap is that you get lots of hold offers and you turn them down, like me at the Los Angeles Public Library.

Analyssa: I had the same note, which was Gigi went in for the hug. And I was like, oh, someone’s holding Dani. Well, well, well.

Drew: But Dani says that Gigi’s the only person she has. And I’m like, what about Micah?

Riese: Micah’s learning Spanish on Netflix right now.

Analyssa: You know who also speaks Spanish? Is Dani. So Micah and Dani could be pals. They could talk to each other in Spanish. Micah could learn Spanish separately of Maribel.

Drew: No, we got that one scene of Dani and Micah being friends—

Analyssa: One scene.

Drew: …my favorite scene of The L Word: Generation Q in my favorite episode of The L Word: Generation Q. I was too enthusiastic. I was cursed. And now the show is bad.

Riese: Gigi also tells her that—

Gigi: You’re pretty prickly when you’re sad.

Riese: Which is true and cute.

Analyssa: It is cute. Also, I am in this picture and I don’t like it. That part, I was like, oh no. The idea of no one ever knows when I’m sad and no one ever takes care of me when I’m sad. And then someone being like, “Hey, the thing about that is you push people away when you’re sad.” I was like—

Drew: Brutal.

Analyssa: … uh-huh (affirmative), that’s interesting.

Drew: Brutal.

Analyssa: Something to take to my therapist when I have one.

Riese: Why are my notes here says, “Gigi is like, yo?”

Analyssa: I mean, I guess she kind of is like that.

Drew: That sums it up.

Riese: Did I want to write something else?

Drew: I’m sure you did.

Analyssa: I think so.

Riese: What did she—

Drew: I don’t know. Sort of like I had a note earlier that was, “Why does this?” And I was like, there was probably more than that or maybe not.

Riese: That’s pretty much a blanket… like “for us as lesbians.” “Why does this?”

Drew: Sophie keeps calling Finley at the bar.

Riese: Why do people keep calling people?

Drew: I don’t know.

Analyssa: And leaving multiple voicemails. By the time I check my voicemail—

Riese: Which will be three months from now.

Analyssa: One will suffice, maybe two.

Drew: Yeah. And then basically Tess tells Sophie, Finley has stuff to work out and she’s not going to be able to do it if you’re there to take care of her.

Riese: I disagree. And I think this is terrible advice.

Analyssa: I also disagree.

Riese: And also, if you’re there to pick up the pieces, I think she’s pretty clearly not picking up the pieces.

Drew: Yeah, that’s fair.

Analyssa: That’s the thing is, I don’t think it’s actually great advice because—

Riese: Finley will need support.

Analyssa: Right. I’m surprised that Tess wasn’t like, look, you can’t handle this all on your own. There are resources for her. She’s going to have to decide that she wants to get better. You can’t pick up all the pieces yourself.

Drew: That would be better advice.

Analyssa: That makes sense to me. But being like—

Riese: Leave her.

Analyssa: “You must stop trying to pick up the pieces.” This gets into the thing that I’m about to be mad about next, but I’ve never seen anyone have to pick up the pieces for Finley’s drinking before. This show is asking me to do this huge logical leap. I linked in the show notes last week, and probably will again this week, the essay about, I think it was Britni de la Cretaz, is that how you say their name?

Riese: I don’t know how to say that.

Analyssa: An essay on how The L Word: Gen Q mishandled Tess’ original storyline. And in reading it, there’s some stuff about Finley’s storyline from the first season. Just the pieces don’t all add up to the thing that they want me to believe they add up to, and it is driving me again as a person of “I quit drinking” experience, insane. Every time I watch it, I’m like, this doesn’t make any sense. Anyway, okay. But before that—

Riese: But when she said this, I was like, fuck, is that what they’re going to do? Because like I fucking hate, hate, hate storylines where somebody tells them, you have to break up with them for this thing to happen. Even like Phyllis telling Shane, “You have to break up with Molly. You’re bad for her.” And then Shane going to do it. And Molly being like, “What the fuck?” Is that what’s going to happen? Because first of all, I fucking hate that. Second of all, I understand that there’s certain ideas around dating someone when you’re in recovery, but Finley is not even there yet. Finley is missing. Sophie never picked up a fucking piece. She has not tried anything. Sophie has not tried a single goddamn thing to help Finley. No one has.

Analyssa: Another thing is I don’t even really want to be mad at Sophie for not trying, because up until now there’s been no need to try anything other than, like you said last episode.

Riese: We haven’t seen Finley—

Analyssa: We saw Finley chugging a beer. In the first season, this essay reminded me, she makes kind of off hand comments like, “I’ve never had sober sex.” Or she had to steal this bike because she woke up hungover. There are things that indicate that her drinking is to an extreme that is A, not healthy, and B, affects her day to day life, which are some markers of alcoholism. What has never been shown to me is that she is a fucking disaster of a drunk and that makes all these messes that people have to clean up, can’t take care of herself. Mostly, she’s like a party girl.

Riese: Seems to be fine.

Analyssa: Does she feel good and whole and worthy inside? Absolutely not. But does she go through most days functional and doing the things that she needs to get done?

Riese: She’s not even late to work. She shows up for what she’s supposed to show up for. Everyone treats her like a party lesbian, which is a whole type of person. And there’s hundreds of them right here in this city.

Analyssa: Right here in this fine city.

Riese: Right. And that’s the thing is, I don’t want to sound like I’m mad at Sophie like she owes Finley something she hasn’t done for her, but they haven’t set up Finley needing pieces picked up and they haven’t set up anyone picking them up.

Drew: No. I mean, we see a little of it with Rebecca, but it’s something that she really only shows a few times.

Analyssa: That’s why the Sophie and Maribel scene earlier was also frustrating to me is because Mari’s like, “I have to talk about this because it’s such a big deal that you’re still dating this person.” Other than your sister’s girlfriend is kind of like a dirt bag, that’s as far as I would give what I’ve seen Maribel see in this series. I think she’s not good enough for you, but that’s fine. It’s not like she’s, I can’t believe you would date this person. You’re still lying for her. You’re still doing all this stuff. Where is this coming from?

Riese: Yeah. And the thing that Finley did that pissed everyone off the most, interrupt the wedding, she was stone cold sober for that. And also, when her and Sophie had sex, which Sophie initiated when they had sex while she was with Dani, she was sober then too. The things that people don’t like about Finley don’t tend to be things that happen while she’s drunk, which obviously, I’m not saying she doesn’t have a problem. She does. This is just out of fucking nowhere. It’s like we’ve talked about before, the only story they really want to tell is a relapse story. They don’t actually want to tell a story about people talking or thinking about their relationship to alcohol.

Analyssa: Right. It feels like, we’ll just go into the next scene because this is all overlapping with it. This is part of the reason I argued against addiction and alcoholism stories on TV because so many writers go for the most dramatic rock bottom that could ever exist. Finley is stumbling around in a hallway, dark, confused.

Riese: How did she get there?

Analyssa: Where is she? We don’t know. She pulls down her pants. She’s peeing in the hallway. She’s falling in her pee. She looks ill.

Riese: Yeah. And we have never seen anything like this from her before, ever.

Analyssa: All of this is so extreme. That’s what I’m mad about is they’ve taken the easiest way to indicate that someone has a problem when up till now they’ve been putting in all these sort of small nuanced, is this? That’s an interesting story. There are many party people, I will include myself in this, people think are charming and fun and exciting and always know the next place to go hang out and always want to drink one more beer and it’s just a kick-ass time, who wake up one morning and are like, “Holy shit. I really don’t have a handle on this actually. It feels out of my control,” for whatever number of reasons. Finley has that moment with Rebecca. Finley goes home to Kansas City and is sober. All of those moments could have been Finley’s bottom. And instead what we’ve done is be like, nothing is a rock bottom unless you’re falling over in your own pee.

Riese: First, they outsource it to the criminal justice system. The other thing is Finley didn’t seem to really care about the DUI, so why would this be prompting her to suddenly be a pee in hallways drunk, who has been missing for 36 fucking hours?

Analyssa: I mean, I guess her fight with Sophie has prompted her to do this. But again, that fight felt rooted in not the reality of what we’ve seen from Finley. And I’m not suggesting—

Riese: Or we’ve seen from Sophie. Who in their right mind would ever let Finley just leave the house like that?

Analyssa: Right. I’m not suggesting at all that Finley is not an alcoholic. What I’m suggesting is that there are many different types of alcoholics, I know a lot of them, in fact, and there are many different types of rock bottom. They’ve chosen the most dramatic version of this for a story with Finley that actually doesn’t feel in line with her character at all or how she experiences-

Riese: There’s no escalation here. There wasn’t last season either. It seemed like it was escalating. It was peaking at Rebecca. And then they had this thing where suddenly the thing with Sophie started and Finley wasn’t drinking, which we all noticed and talked about, but no one said anything about it on the show. We were like, that’s the first time Finley’s had sober sex with someone. We wrote that in. But they didn’t say it.

Riese: And then this season it’s been like she was sober, but there’s been no escalation, just in terms of how to tell a story. They have not built us here.

Analyssa: What I would be less angry about and believe more for the character I’ve seen is Finley getting wasted at some bar, hitting on a bunch of people, kind of being embarrassing to herself. They’re like, “You have to go.” She’s wandering some more. Her outlet is partying. And that is really tied up with drinking obviously. I’ve never seen this girl’s outlet to be drinking so that she looks like she is sick and peeing in a hallway of a fancy building, which I’ll move on now, we find out is Dani’s building.

Riese: How?

Analyssa: How did she get in, first of all? Well, actually one step further. How does she know where Dani lives? Because Dani bought this apartment with her dad.

Drew: Makes no sense.

Riese: Like five days ago.

Analyssa: And is not friends with any of them right now.

Riese: Right. I don’t even know where you guys live.

Analyssa: Finley is wandering around. I can give you our address. Finley is wandering around drunk in Los Angeles and either knew the address to Dani’s to put into a Lyft app or Uber or—

Riese: Or a Bird.

Analyssa: Or knew Dani’s address to Bird there. And Dani lives in a high rise. I’ve seen it. It looks very fancy. There is for sure a key code at the door.

Riese: There is no way—

Analyssa: There’s no way you can just walk into that apartment building.

Riese: The people who live in those apartment building do not let drunk people falling over themselves walk into the apartment building.

Analyssa: Riese, we can’t even walk into your apartment building without a code.

Riese: Yeah. Well, people have, but yeah, you can’t walk into my apartment building without the code. That’s true. People found other ways to get in. Why would she go to Dani’s? Why didn’t she go to Tess’, Shane’s? She knows where Shane lives.

Analyssa: Because they lost it outside. We talked about it last week. She also is incapacitated.

Riese: That would’ve been much more moving by the way, is her landing on fucking Shane’s doorstep because Shane used to be the person on the doorstep.

Drew: But they’re not trying to make it moving. They’re trying to make it dramatic.

Riese: They’re trying to make it ugly, suddenly. They’ve been coddling Finley this whole fucking series. And now suddenly they want it to be ugly.

Analyssa: Which feels so incongruous with the character, and also just weirdly mean, not to Finley, but to the idea of alcoholics and how you might find your way to a bottom to get to recovery. I’m certain that there are people in the writer’s room who are sober. Otherwise, that would be truly mind boggling. But I can’t understand this arc.

Riese: I mean, are there? I don’t know.

Analyssa: She’s incapacitated enough to pee in the hallway and fall over and put her hand in it. But she still has the wherewithal to find, not just Dani’s building, but Dani’s door, banging on the correct door.

Riese: They could have had an escalation that peaked today at the family party where maybe she was drinking at the party with Sophie’s family and embarrassed herself. I wouldn’t have wanted to see that because maybe like the writers, I love Finley and Sophie and I want them to be coddled and I don’t want Finley to embarrass herself in front of Sophie’s family. But would that have made more sense?

Analyssa: Yes.

Riese: Yes.

Analyssa: Okay. We’ve got it all out. I mean, I’m sure we had more.

Drew: I mean, we’re going to—

Riese: I know. We haven’t.

Analyssa: We’ve gotten some stuff.

Drew: We come back.

Riese: Dani calls Sophie and Sophie is at Dana’s and she answers it.

Drew: Yeah. And then we go to—

Analyssa: Speaking of being on the phone.

Drew: Yeah. Alice is on the phone with a reporter who once again is asking Alice about her personal life after saying she’s done so much for lesbians on TV.

Analyssa: A question I have is how did Alice get branded as a capital L Lesbian talk show host? Because this felt like a very easy time to say when the reporter was like, “You’ve done so much for lesbian representation,” to be like, “Ha ha, actually I’m bisexual, but I hope I represent queer women—” or “I’m so glad lesbians relate to me.” There were so many other options. And instead what she does is roll with this reporter calling her a lesbian talk show host, and then say, “Well, I’m dating a man named Tom.” That is opening her up for the thing that she seems deeply afraid of, which is that people will make fun of her on the internet.

Drew: Yeah. And actually she clarifies a cis-man, which I actually really liked because I do think that Alice would date a—

Riese: The assumption would be—

Drew: … would date a trans man and still identify and not be worried about him. That fits with Alice and Alice’s community.

Riese: Do I understand being a bisexual who stops dating men and then you call yourself a lesbian and then everyone starts to call you a lesbian and then you just kind of are a lesbian? Yes.

Drew: But is that what happened with Alice? Is that what we’re led to believe that throughout the last 10 years she hasn’t identified as bisexual publicly?

Analyssa: I don’t think we’ve been led to believe anything.

Riese: I believe that that’s what’s been happening because that’s what happened to me personally.

Drew: No, I know. I know what you were—

Riese: Because that seems possible to me. But I would think she’d be like, “Actually, I’m not a lesbian. I’m bisexual.” And then say, “And I’m dating a man.”

Analyssa: She’s been offered so many opportunities on record this episode even, not even over the last 10 years. I can see how again, the identity or label that gets assigned to you can just kind of get away from you. And you’re like, okay, I’ll just roll with that. But right now specifically, people are always telling her how great it is — Carrie, how great it is that there’s a lesbian on TV.

Drew: Yeah, she never—

Analyssa: She could just be like, “I’m not one.”

Riese: Totally. This is what I would say if I was in her position, which I could be, but I’m not because I have a girlfriend is, “Actually, yeah, I did identify as a lesbian for a long time because that kind of just seemed like the right fit for me. But I actually used to identify as bisexual and I think I identify as bisexual again because I’m actually dating a man.”

Analyssa: That’s all. That’s a side of myself that I’m exploring.

Drew: So we go to Angie’s prom. She and Jordi apologize to each other. Jordi lost prom queen, very sad. But they dance and it’s cute.

Analyssa: It’s sweet.

Drew: I will say—

Riese: Did they not want to hire any extras for this scene?

Drew: I guess not, which I get. That’s fine.

Analyssa: In my head, they’re outside of Olivia Rodrigo’s Sour Prom 45-minute concert. They’re in the—

Drew: So funny. Angie and Jordi feel very chaste to me and very much don’t even really feel like girlfriends. There’s got to be an in-between, between sexualizing teenagers, which I don’t want, and them feeling like—

Riese: I don’t think they’ve even tongue kissed. They hug.

Analyssa: They hug a lot.

Drew: They hug. They hug all the time. It is just a little bit weird. There’s got to be an in-between.

Riese: Is it because the actors are young? Because Sex Education is about high school.

Drew: The actors are a lot older.

Riese: Or like Beverly Hills 90210, as aforementioned

Drew: So is Euphoria. But it is because the actors are actually teenagers here. So it makes sense that they wouldn’t have graphic sex scenes, like in Sex Education. I get that and support that. But I do think there’s an in-between. They don’t even have to make out. There even just is a way of—

Riese: They could just kiss.

Drew: There is also just a way of touching.

Riese: They kiss on Degrassi.

Drew: There’s a way that they could hold each other, touch each other that could just be a little bit more flirtatious. I don’t know.

Riese: Yeah, I agree.

Drew: They just have friend chemistry, not romantic chemistry, which is fine, I guess. I really felt it this episode where I just was like, mm.

Analyssa: Yeah, my note is towards the end when they’re in the little montage dancing, which we’re about to get into, but the climax of their dancing outside of prom is that they do one very intense hug. It’s like, I don’t need to see two 17-year-olds have sex, especially on this show.

Riese: Right.

Analyssa: Or ever. But Euphoria, or Sex Education, where 20-year-olds are playing 17-year-olds, that’s okay, we’re getting into something different, but the—

Riese: The hugging is—

Analyssa: The hugging needs to stop.

Riese: It’s reminiscent of what all gay people used to do on TV.

Drew: That’s what’s bothering me, I think, about it, is I just am a little bit… And especially, I don’t know, especially because she’s trans. I don’t know if I have an actual specific critique. It’s just hitting me weird.

Riese: Yeah, no. It was super weird because last week… Two weeks ago… When was the Singing in the Rain thing?

Anayssa: Two weeks.

Drew: Yeah.

Riese: When they were like, “I’m so glad you…” And then they did the hug, and I’m like, “These…” Come on.

Drew: I mean, maybe the actors don’t feel comfortable, in which case, respect those 17-year-old actors.

Riese: Right.

Analyssa: But even a kiss on the cheek or an arm around the shoulder can feel very like, “We are a couple who are dating.” And these hugs are very like, “Oh my God, my best friend…” Yeah.

Drew: Yeah, yeah.

Riese: Yeah. They have best friend energy.

Analyssa: Riese and I had more chemistry when we hugged hello at the door than these two have. They have, yeah, best friend… Like, “Oh my God, are we so cute together?”

Riese: Right.

Drew: Right.

Riese: Also, Angie she does look great in her suit. I don’t know if we took… cut through that.

Analyssa: And I love that Jordi is wearing basically a Betsy Johnson dress to prom, because that was critical to my prom experience.

Riese: It also had the Villanelle vibes of that.

Analyssa: Yes.

Riese: Which… classic.

Analyssa: Yeah.

Drew: Okay. So Bette and Tina have made their way—

Analyssa: For some reason I stopped taking notes here.

Drew: So they’ve made their way to Marcus. So they recast him. So why is any of this storyline happening, if he didn’t have to, if he could just live on, why is he saved?

Riese: I have no idea. Also, why did they recast a lighter skinned actor?

Analyssa: That is a bummer. Why do it? And again, why have Angie have another Black relative who dies?

Drew: Yep.

Riese: Right?

Drew: Well, we’ll get there.

Riese: I don’t know what happens next because I don’t have notes.

Analyssa: Right. Okay. So Bette and Tina are in Marcus’s hospital room.

Riese: Oh yeah. And he’s like, “Congrats on…” So I guess he’s reading the fucking LA times.

Drew: Yeah. Bette gives Marcus Angie’s questions and he’s like, “Oh I didn’t… I guess I can meet her. Sure.” That’s it.

Riese: What? Like, what is ha—

Drew: I don’t… It makes no… none of it makes sense.

Riese: Do their schedules not line up?

Drew: Yeah. I’m not…

Riese: What was going on? I don’t know. But he’s proud of Bette for raising Angie, who’s obviously such a great kid because she has great handwriting or whatever.

Drew: Yeah.

Analyssa: Bette and Tina lock eyes because Bette is like, “We did it together.” It’s so cute. Again. I’m telling you, I can hear the people who want Bette and Tina together just thrilled.

Riese: Which is most people I think.

Analyssa: I think it is.

Drew: That’s so…

Analyssa: It’s surprising to me.

Drew: I’m so… I’m just…

Analyssa: Also though, just one quick thing. As a person of LA experience, Marcus has a show going up. He’s still an artist. He has a show going up and Bette calls it Lock-ma. I call it Lack-ma.

Drew: I call it Lack-ma.

Riese: Oh, I call it Lock-ma.

Drew: Oh, wow.

Analyssa: Fascinating. Okay. That’s why I brought it up, because I knew someone would have an opinion.

Riese: I don’t understand how they haven’t crossed paths at all. He’s in LA. He’s in LA, now.

Analyssa: And he has a show at Lack-ma?

Riese: He has a show.

Drew: Doesn’t make any sense.

Riese: It seems like she would’ve literally had to actively avoid him.

Drew: Yeah. That doesn’t make any sense. Okay.

Riese: I keep forgetting that the original series was also set in LA.

Drew: We go back.

Riese: He doesn’t live in Vancouver anymore.

Drew: Yeah. I also have that. So then we’re back with Finley and she asks… She’s like, “Your apartment’s amazing. Why did you live in that with us?”

Riese: That was kind of funny.

Drew: But did Finley live there?

Riese: Yeah.

Drew: I thought Finley lived… I thought Finley’s whole thing was that she was living with Shane.

Riese: Right. But then she got kicked out of Shane’s and, and she moved.

Analyssa: At some point…

Drew: Okay.

Riese: Cause Quiara came so she…

Drew: Right. Right. Right. Right.

Riese: And then she and Sophie was like, “Just live with me.”

Drew: Right, right.

Riese: Because they were secretly falling in love with each other.

Drew: Right, right. Sorry. Sorry. Okay.

Riese: I mean the things that Finley says in this are a little bit funny.

Analyssa: Yes.

Riese: You know, when she’s just like, “Wow, you’re such an adult,” and like Gigi and Dani are like, “What is happening?” But also they have made her look like fucking Macaulay Culkin on a terrible, terrible night, in the late nineties.

Drew: It’s like… It’s so painful to watch, and so unnecessary. And then Finley says to Dani, “That’s the look. You’re giving me the look, the look that Sophie gives me.” When did we see that before? It was talked about. It’s classic show-don’t-tell. Like what? You can’t just be like, “Oh, in the last episode, we invented that there is this look that Sophie gives Finley when she’s scared of her.” Like what? When did…

Riese: Finley’s accidentally stepping in her own pee, but also keenly aware of Dani’s facial expressions.

Analyssa: Yeah. I didn’t take notes. Drew, thank you for doing the heavy lifting. Because Riese stopped notes. I didn’t take notes on this.

Riese: I was upset, I guess.

Analyssa: I don’t know why you stopped, but I didn’t take notes on this scene. My only note says, “Finley, Gigi, Dani scene makes me mad. I don’t know, whatever. We get it. She’s an alcoholic.” It just felt so…

Drew: It’s terrible.

Analyssa: Obvious. Like it’s just, it’s not…

Drew: Well, something that I think has been coming up a lot in these episodes is that oftentimes, we frame things being politically bad or offensive in various ways…

Riese: Bad for representation.

Drew: Yeah. There’s like that. And then there’s bad art. And so often they’re the same. So often it’s lazy writing because it’s not truthful writing and so it’s bad from a narrative perspective and it’s bad from a being shitty to people perspective. I wish that more and more culturally beyond The L Word, we were able to talk more about that and stopped creating this line between stuff being politically sound and being artistically sound. Because usually it’s one. The graph is whatever… How graphs work. Like it’s the same, the pie chart is what… The ven diagram is a circle. That’s what I was trying to say.

Analyssa: The graph is how graphs work.

Drew: So everything that is bothering us, and I say politically, but it’s really just representing people in a way that is inaccurate, and shitty, and untruthful. And that also is just terrible writing and I hate it. And then we go into our final montage, where we’re going to get to the last thing that I hate is…

Riese: So has Sophie already picked her up?

Analyssa: No, that’s at the end.

Riese: Okay.

Drew: Yeah. So Angie and Jordi are dancing and chastely hugging. Tina thanks Bette for making it happen, that Angie’s going to…

Riese: Everyone thanks Bette for everything.

Drew: Yeah. And then the two of them are being all like, “Oh my God, Angie’s so lucky to have a mom like you.” And it’s like a moment where they’re just… It’s just like, fuck already. Get it over with and ruin our lives. And then… Oh! Oh!

Riese: Surprise!

Drew: Marcus dies.

Analyssa: We’re coding.

Riese: Yeah. Which also, how many… They love having people coding on this. I know on this show, but also it was so weird because now Tina and Bette were present for his death. His own wife and child weren’t, which is weird.

Drew: Yeah. Yeah.

Analyssa: They were downstairs buying a ‘you are my sunshine’ flower.

Riese: Right? Exactly. I know — Kayla should have come up with little, ‘you are my sunshine flower’ and then everyone could have cried. I was just like, “Really guys?”

Drew: If Tina was the last person to see my husband alive, I would think she killed him. What have you done, Tina Kennard? I just… It makes me so mad. We already talked about it, but it’s just so gross.

Riese: Stop killing Black people on this show, please. And, and then the weird thing is that this, this season, we also found out that, against what we believed, Bette’s mom is actually alive, but she’s the white parent. So the only living family member—

Analyssa: Yeah, yeah. Yep.

Riese: Like, did no one say this is a little bit messed up? Also, they just introduced him.

Analyssa: And again, what is the point of re-introducing him? And re-casting him if they were just going to kill him off? Couldn’t he have been… Unfortunately he died two years ago. Okay. Fine. Then I don’t have to meet a character… invest.

Riese: What happened to the kidney?

Drew: Yeah. We didn’t explain that at all.

Riese: It’s just, what was the point? What was the point of having the storyline at all? What was accomplished by Angie not meeting Marcus? What did that do?

Analyssa: We’ve traumatized Angie.

Drew: Yeah. I don’t know why.

Analyssa: Just killed someone else?

Drew: Yeah. It makes no sense. Again, it’s just lazy. It’s the same thing of what we’re talking about with Finely.

Analyssa: Cause more pain for Black women?

Drew: It’s just that they don’t, they don’t know how to create conflict, unless it’s the most obvious ways of creating conflict. So it’s death, it’s jail. It’s cheating. That’s the only way they know how to create conflict.

Analyssa: I wish there were more cheating.

Drew: I know. I know. Right?

Analyssa: I just, I wish that I didn’t have to be having this conversation. Not with you two. This is lovely. But I just mean, I wish I was just excited about what they were getting up to.

Drew: Yeah.

Riese: Yeah.

Analyssa: I wish I weren’t thinking about what the writer… I just am having a moment where I’m like, “Are people going to listen to this and think that I’m really angry for no reason?” And maybe, but more importantly, I wish that I didn’t have to be like, “This is why I’m angry.” Instead, I just got to turn my little brain off and enjoy some hot people kissing.

Riese: Right.

Analyssa: And sometimes cheating on…

Drew: Yeah.

Analyssa: Their partner with their ex, and sometimes spending a million dollars on a home. And then I don’t know, throwing a weird party in it or something. I don’t know.

Drew: More karaoke.

Riese: Right.

Analyssa: Any number of other storylines. And instead, now I have to be mad and I have to be responsible for being mad on this podcast.

Drew: Yeah.

Riese: Also one of the things that we talked about a lot, a few years ago, when all that conversation was happening around like lesbians being killed on TV shows at egregious rates or whatever, is that one of the most… Because when we were doing the list, we want to include guest characters who were only there for one episode? Because probably not, because that could be so many procedural stuff like that. But we did include some because there is something so especially egregious about introducing a lesbian character, just to kill her moments later.

Analyssa: Yeah.

Drew: Yes.

Riese: And I think the same, obviously, the same is true for Black characters and that’s exactly what they did here. They introduced him and they killed him three minutes later.

Drew: Yeah.

Analyssa: Yeah.

Riese: That’s so profoundly fucked and I don’t know how they’re going to come back from this.

Drew: Yeah

Analyssa: Yeah. I have to watch Angie be sad next episode?

Riese: Right.

Analyssa: Like I don’t want that.

Riese: No. Why do you think…

Analyssa: I want like a fun… I want like a season finale where people have sex.

Drew: Right.

Analyssa: And like Angie and Jordi hold hands while they go to meet Marcus at the house that he lives in…

Riese: Or to Disneyland.

Analyssa: And then they all get to go to Disneyland, or something.

Riese: She cuts her kidney right out of her body and gives it to him and he swallows it and then he is fine and they all go to fucking Disneyland.

Analyssa: You know, the way kidney transplants work.

Riese: Exactly. That’s how they work.

Drew: Like eating the placenta.

Riese: Exactly. Yes.

Analyssa: The end of this montage is that Sophie comes to get Finley. Is there a conversation in this? I didn’t take notes on it.

Drew: I don’t know. I think it…

Riese: Are Gigi and Dani still standing there like, “Who is this?”

Drew: I say, Sophie goes to Dani’s. My last note under that is “WTF. Why?” So I don’t know what prompted that. I don’t know if she says anything.

Analyssa: They’re all looking at Finley like, “Oh no.”

Drew: Yeah.

Analyssa: And again, we’ve never seen them have to do this. We’ve always seen her wake up in a strange place, which is scary, and again, not a sign that things are going well for her, but…

Riese: Yeah.

Analyssa: It’s never… I’m not trying to make a value judgment on Finley’s alcoholism or on anyone’s alcoholism. But Finley has never actually appeared to be a burden to anyone in her life because of her drinking. She’s harming herself and she’s sometimes harming other people, like Rebecca or whatever. I’ve never seen her do this to her friends. I’ve never seen her friends be concerned about her. I’ve only ever see them be like, “Fuck yeah, let’s keep drinking, Finley. Let’s go out. Let’s do more stuff.”

Riese: Bro night!

Analyssa: And for them all to be looking at her with this —

Riese: Pity and disgust.

Analyssa: Pity and disappointment and disgust is what I was trying to poke out with the Sophie conversation. Like where they got into a fight and she’s like, “Your light goes out,” all that stuff. Where is that coming from? Cause I haven’t seen any of it. I genuinely believe that loving people who have alcoholism is hard.

Riese: Right.

Analyssa: I believe that.

Riese: Yes.

Analyssa: I agree.

Riese: Yes. Having loved people who have alcoholism. I agree. It is hard.

Analyssa: I think it would be hard to love Finley as she is and as we’ve seen her.

Riese: Yeah.

Analyssa: I think they’re drawing a parallel here that they’ve always felt like they do in this episode, while they’re staring at her like this and I don’t understand how or why.

Drew: Yeah.

Riese: There’s so many small, easy things too, like that could have… She could have just fallen asleep on the bus and had all her stuff stolen.

Analyssa: Right.

Riese: Common.

Analyssa: Anything. Yeah.

Riese: What is she doing at Dani’s? So was it just so she could be like, “your apartment is nice” or I don’t, I think there’s supposed to be some… Sophie was supposed to be embarrassed.

Drew: Yeah. Probably.

Riese: So that Sophie be… Or did they want Sophie to be mad for embarrassing her in some way?

Analyssa: Maybe. There is also something with Finley and Dani. Finley thinks that Dani is the person she should be aspiring to be.

Drew: Doing this whole thing. Yeah.

Riese: Which also doesn’t make sense because Sophie told her otherwise and usually Finley pretty much believes whatever people tell her.

Drew: Yeah. And they’re also just extremely different people.

Riese: The only nice thing was that — it was that I think at least in this episode they made it clear that Sophie really cares about Finley and did seem to regret everything, which I think is more consistent of her character. That she would be preoccupied by it. But other than that, I was like, “This is not an improvement on last week.” I was really like, “Is she not on the cast for this episode?”

Analyssa: I really thought she wasn’t going to be there.

Drew: Yeah.

Analyssa: That’s the episode.

Drew: That’s the episode. Okay. Well…

Riese: Honestly, all I want to do is start a podcast called Finley and Sophie, where I talk about all of my feelings about this storyline.

Analyssa: Oh, I thought you were going to say like where I write fanfic and read it.

Riese: Oh no.

Analyssa: Wouldn’t it be nice if every week me, you and Drew got together and we sat in this living room, like we are now. You in this tall chair and us on the floor and you had notes. And you read us a bedtime story, which was like, “This week on The L Word: Generation Q…”

Riese: Right.

Analyssa: “Sophie and Finley went to Huntington Gardens and they walked around and Finley played soccer with a little boy, because she loves playing soccer.”

Riese: Yeah.

Analyssa: “And then Sophie got a call from Alice that she’s getting promoted, and look at that.”

Riese: Right.

Analyssa: “Everything’s fun and happy.”

Drew: I would like to clarify that it is possible to have high drama, lots of conflict and it isn’t this type of shitty, over the top conflict.

Riese: Right.

Drew: As much as I would love for Riese’s fanfic to be…

Analyssa: But Riese is reading me bedtime stories.

Drew: I know. I just want to say that The L Word… I feel like that’s how The L Word writers think: “Well, it’s either this or it’s this.” And it’s like, no, there’s a whole world of conflict.

Riese: Right. It’s just, it’s season two. How hard is it to still have ideas?

Drew: I know. And you have a million characters. You have to give three minutes to each character every episode. Come on.

Riese: Right. And I know they were restricted by COVID, in terms of what they could do. But also I feel like they did a great job of that because they were setting up these inter group romances that were really fun for us. And then they just fucking blew it.

Analyssa: There could constantly be conflict. I would think that this show was a vast improvement over the episodes we’ve seen, the last two, if they just sat all of them at the poker table again and had everybody kind of snark at each other, I’d be like, “Sick. Let’s go”

Drew: Great, great.

Analyssa: That’s great.

Drew: Yeah. Well that wasn’t great. So maybe…

Analyssa: I wasn’t as demoralized after this one, as I was after the first one.

Drew: I was more prepared.

Analyssa: I was mad about the Finley storyline. Much more than I had been, but I wasn’t as much like, “What the fuck is going on?”

Drew: Yeah. It’s more competently written.

Riese: Yeah, it was definitely better than last week. But also we also knew, because Lauren had already said that she hated it. So I was already prepared a little bit for that.

Drew: That’s true. I have no idea what to expect next week, but we’ll be here.

Riese: I’m dreading it. I’m not dreading it, but I’m not excited. Because the way every — the direction that everything is going in is a direction that I don’t care for.

Analyssa: Right. Yeah.

Drew: A real shame.

Analyssa: What if everyone had chaperoned Jordi and Angie’s prom?

Riese: That would’ve been a fun little bottle episode.

Analyssa: And I don’t know, Sophie had to do it because she had to do a favor for Alice, or something.

Riese: Yeah.

Analyssa: And you could even still have Finley trying really hard not to drink at prom. Sneaking into the bathroom…

Riese: Yeah. And it’s like, “Now you’re drinking with 12-year-old boys. You have a problem.”

Analyssa: There’s something to talk about.

Drew: That sounds like a much better…

Analyssa: Alice has to decide if she should bring Tom or not.

Riese: Yeah.

Drew: Wow.

Riese: Remember when Alice was like, it’s weird to just bring a guy into this and it was like, I have an idea. Bring him.

Analyssa: Let’s see what that looks like.

Lauren: Thank you so much for listening to this episode of To L and Back Generation Q! One of two podcasts brought to you by Autostraddle.com. You can follow us on Instagram and Twitter @tolandback. You can also email us at tolandbackcast@gmail.com. Don’t forget, we also have a hotline! Yes, it still exists! Give us a call, leave us a message, or just give us a piece of your mind! You can reach us at 971-217-6130! We also have merch! Head over to store.autostraddle.com. There are “Bette Porter For President” t-shirts, there are To L and Back stickers, and lots of other simply iconic Autostraddle merchandise. Our theme song is by the talented Be Steadwell. Our brand new To L and Back: Generation Q logo is by the incredible Jacqi Ko! Jacqi is so, so talented and you should definitely go check out her work, I’ve linked her website and socials in the show notes! And definitely let us know if you want us to make stickers of the new logo, because I think those would look pretty sick! This episode was produced, edited and mixed by me, Lauren Klein, you can find me on Instagram @laurentaylorklein and on Twitter @ltklein. You can follow Drew everywhere @draw_gregory. That’s “Drew” in the present tense. You can follow Analyssa on Instragram @analocaa, with two As, and on Twitter @analoca_, with one A and an underscore. And you can follow our in-house L Word savant and living legend, Riese Bernard, everywhere @autowin. Autostraddle is @autostraddle. And of course, the reason we are all here…. Autostraddle.com. Okay. So sticking with the trend of last week with our now full-of-intention L words, we are going to end this episode with an L word that describes what we thought of this episode. So Drew, Riese, Analyssa, what are your L words?

Drew: Mine is lethargic because watching bad television makes me feel lethargic. I’m just so tired. I’m just so tired.

Analyssa: I have a good one.

Riese: Yeah?

Analyssa: Mine is lip lock, because I would like to see more kissing.

Riese: Yeah, there was no sex scene in this episode.

Analyssa: I don’t think anybody put their mouths on each other.

Drew: In what context could they have had sex that wouldn’t make me miserable? Well, Shane and Tess had a little bit of kissing, but they’re the only couple who can have sex right now that wouldn’t make me feel a little bit gross. Well, I guess, Bette and Pippa, but they’re not… Are they even a couple still or is it going to be Bette and Tina forever? Oh, okay. So what’s your… Do you want to say lactose intolerant?

Riese: We really lost Drew on that one. Yeah. My L word this week is lactose intolerant, because I think that’s what Finley was suffering from at the end of the episode. Everyone was like, oh you’re drunk. And it’s like, I don’t know. Maybe she had milk.

Drew: I think you’ve put about as much thought into your L-Words this season as the writers have put into the show.

Riese: Thank you. And I want the writers of the show to know that I would put more effort into it if I was hired to work for your show.

Analyssa: Finley’s either suffering from lactose intolerance or that disease on SpongeBob, where everyone gets the suds.

Drew: I would like to say also that I’m critiquing the show, not any individual people. See you later!

Riese: Bye guys, have a nice day!

“Wait, Is This a Date?” Podcast Episode 108: First Dates

This week we’re joined by writer, To L and Back co-host, future TV exec, and my roommate Analyssa Lopez! We’re talking about first dates — the who, the what, the where, the why, AND the how.

But before we get into our real dating lives, Christina fanfics some of our favorite queer celebs in a game of Love Triangles!

SHOW NOTES

+ One gay kiss wasn’t enough to get Nine Perfect Strangers higher than #42 in my Nicole Kidman ranking.

+ Love Triangle celebs pulled from Christina’s ever-delightful No Filter column.

+ Christina and I talked more about first dates when we were on Bad with Money.

+ Analyssa’s crush of the week glowing on TikTok.

+ Also a fun anecdote about Jessica Chastain: I saw her do a Q&A after a screening for Molly’s Game and she was so poised and comfortable and fake but in an impressive good way. I had the thought, I bet Jessica Chastain never struggles to send an email. And since then whenever I’m writing a business-y email I just say to myself, You’re Jessica Chastain. You’re Jessica Chastain. Works pretty well.

+ Here’s my interview with Isabel Sandoval and here are her films on the Criterion Channel.

+ Did you hear the news? The morning news? Christina is recapping The Morning Show.

Christina: One of my first date moves is guaranteeing not asking any questions. I will come back from a date and my friends would be like, “How was it? What do they do? Where do they live?” And I’ll be like, “No idea. I got nothing.” I don’t know what I converse about on dates, but it’s never any relevant information that anybody would want to hear on a follow up, because I’m always like, oh yeah, I’m sure they have a job. I don’t know what it is.

Theme song plays

Drew: Hi, I’m Drew.

Christina: I’m Christina.

Drew: And welcome to, Wait, Is This a Date?

Christina: Wait, Is This a Date? is an Autostraddle podcast dedicated to answering the age old question: wait, is this a date?

Drew: Every day we get more and more clarity and learn more and more how to communicate with one another and our community.

Christina: Wow. That was so beautiful and touching.

Drew: Thanks.

Christina: And also so lightly robotic in a way that I really appreciated.

Drew: Great. Going for like queer cult. Yeah.

Christina: Yeah. Okay. Because you’ve watched, how much? You finished Nine Perfect Strangers yesterday?

Drew: I did. I watched it all in one day. Well, plus the last episode was the morning after, while I built my new bookshelf. It was a real successful… that’s exactly how much focus should be given to that television program.

Christina: So you’re just not coming at us from a well space, because you were in a cult.

Drew: Yeah, that was a few days ago. It’s not good enough to really have messed with me too much. But you know what? Sometimes bad television is necessary, especially when it stars a lot of stars. Oh, we should talk about who we are.

Christina: Oh yeah. Right.

Drew: We usually do that.

Christina: Here we are talking about Nine Perfect Strangers, a TV show no one cares about.

Drew: Okay, well my name is Drew Gregory. I’m a writer for Autostraddle. I’m a filmmaker, I’m a trans person, I’m a lesbian person. Yeah. And I do love Nicole Kidman.

Christina: Incredible work. I’m Christina Tucker. Also a writer for Autostraddle, I am a lesbian person and also thankful that The Morning Show is back in my life because it’s really been, well, ruining it, but in a good way. We love bad television!

Drew: Yeah. That’s some good bad television. That’s excellent. Yeah.

Christina: Chef’s kiss. Chef’s kiss.

Drew: Well, should we get into our game?

Christina: I am so excited to figure out, what’s coming from your little brain today?

Drew: Okay.

Christina: What horrors have you created?

Drew: So this game is called Love Triangles.

Christina: Oh boy.

Drew: And you’ll see that I have a hat here. Okay?

Christina: Okay.

Drew: And inside the hat are pieces of paper that have 10 reoccurring people who show up on Christina’s No Filter column, which is dedicated to celebrity gossip and Instagram posts. And then there’s your name and my name. And I’m going to pick three names out of this hat, and you’re going to put on your brilliant Christina fanfic cap, and just tell me what the love triangle would be between those three individuals.

Christina: Wow. Okay. I’m going to take a sip of Diet Coke and I’m going to be ready for this.

Drew: Yeah. What the dynamic would be. Okay. So you see—

Christina: I love that you put things in a hat. It’s so physical.

Drew: Yeah. I love it. I mean, it’s a podcast, so no one can really trust, but I promise that, one, I’m not looking. Two, it’s all random. Okay. Ready?

Christina: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Drew: Okay. So the first name is Tessa Thompson.

Christina: Iconic.

Drew: Hayley Kiyoko.

Christina: Mm.

Drew: And Rosie O’Donnell.

Christina: Now this is interesting, because what the fuck are those three people doing together? My gut is saying that Tessa and Rosie are probably going to be our main primary triangle moments here, because I feel like that’s really the only plausible way to approach this fucking trolley ass problem of a love triangle that you’ve given me. So I feel like they, I don’t know, met at a party, Tessa was feeling wild. She was like, “It’s Rosie O’Donnell. I’m going to hook up with Rosie O’Donnell because why the hell not?” That seems like her energy.

Drew: Absolutely.

Christina: I do think Hayley was entered into this triangle because maybe she’s had a crush on Tessa for a while and they met at some function. And I don’t think Tessa is in any way, like, “oh, I can’t date her.” She’s just like, “yeah, we can vibe, we can hang.” But I think Hayley’s a little hung up on like, “wait, but you hooked up with Rosie O’Donnell, the Rosie O’Donnell? How did that happen?”

Drew: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Christina: I don’t think there’s any actual tension in this triangle. I think there is just a little insecurity and some concern.

Drew: I see.

Christina: I don’t know how we’re solving it because again, I just feel like Tessa just absolutely vibes out. She’s going to be like, I got to go hang out with Rita Ora and Tayo Otiti at some point, so catch you lates. But I do think, I don’t know, maybe at the end it ends with Hayley and Rosie bonding at some sort of brunch.

Drew: Oh, I love that.

Christina: Like, yeah, man. This is generational lesbians. This is like, we’re passing the torch. I think that could be really beautiful, honestly.

Drew: That is beautiful.

Christina: That is also so chaotic.

Drew: Yeah. Let’s move on to the next random trio.

Christina: Oh boy.

Drew: Okay. So it is Niecy Nash.

Christina: Waiting for that one.

Drew: Hunter Schafer.

Christina: Uh-huh (affirmative).

Drew: And Holland Taylor.

Christina: Well, now.

Drew: Wow.

Christina: Huh. Yet again you have placed me in a challenging scenario. Now, I mean, I guess it’s like, we have to start with Holland and Niecy. I don’t know what’s happening here. Both are in very happy relationships.

Drew: Yeah.

Christina: I don’t know if anybody knows that Niecy Nash is absolutely obsessed with her wife, but she is, and I’m sure she’s posted at least six times today about that fact.

Drew: Look, sometimes love triangles are unrequited.

Christina: I think it’s going to have to be, but I feel like it’s unrequited in every fucking direction. What is Hunter Schafer doing here? Hunter Schafer is like a dang teenager just vibing.

Drew: Early twenties. Just want to clarify.

Christina: I said what I said. That’s the same age. Jenna from The Office, it’s the same picture. Come on. This one, I might have to throw the towel in on. I genuinely don’t understand.

Drew: Okay. We can also put the names back in. Wait, let me put Hunter Schafer back in.

Christina: Yeah.

Drew: And we going to do—

Christina: Pull me something else. I can make something happen with Niecy and Holland. I don’t know what, it’s very dramatic.

Drew: Oh. Okay. This is a very interesting trio. Gillian Anderson.

Christina: Oh. Now, Gillian, famously semi freshly single, has a dog, also true. She’s no longer dating the man from The Crown that made her be Margaret Thatcher, which I think is probably for the best. Now, hmm. See, I feel like someone’s just going to have to have feelings for Niecy in the corner because she’s just doing her thing.

Drew: That’s a really good point. That’s a great point.

Christina: She’s just doing her thing. I think Holland and Sarah, I don’t know, they can get freaky. There could be maybe, maybe they invite Gillian over for drinks. Maybe things get a little spicy. Who could say? Maybe Niecy comes with Jessica. Maybe Jessica leaves early. Maybe there’s feelings on all sides. Again, I don’t know really what’s happening because I can’t imagine most of these people in the same space together. It’s thrilling to think about, for me personally. I’ll spend a lot of time thinking about it later. Now, though?

Drew: Yeah. It can definitely be an orgy moment with the partners involved, like celebrate Gillian Anderson being single.

Christina: I think that might be it. I think they might have gotten together and been like, let’s get this noted bisexual into some puss. I think that could be incredible.

Drew: Wow. What a remarkable fivesome that would be. Okay. Moving on.

Christina: Also, can I just ask one question about the hat? Is it like a news boy cap?

Drew: It is. I don’t have like a… It’s a pretty shallow hat, but I don’t have a lot of hats. So it is—

Christina: I’m glad the one that you have is a newsboy cap.

Drew: It’s a little newsboy cap. Yeah. I think I pull it off sometimes.

Christina: You have the hair for it. I believe it.

Drew: Thanks.

Christina: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Drew: Okay. Demi Lovato.

Christina: Incredible.

Drew: Christina Tucker. And Cara Delevingne.

Christina: Interesting. Now this is interesting. Because working myself into here is not something I usually do. I don’t usually write reader fic because that’s—

Drew: I know.

Christina: Embarrassing.

Drew: Well let’s embarrass you.

Christina: Let’s embarrass me. So Cara’s had some sort of gathering, right, at her bonkers house with the vagina tunnel and all of the Leo statues in the backyard, that’s what’s happening. I think Demi has decided that they will attend, but is maybe still a little nervous about going to a party at this lunatic lesbian’s house because famously, substance issues are tough. A party at Cara’s house is going to get weird quickly. There’s a whole room that’s just a ball pit. I don’t understand what’s going on there. And I famously don’t love parties or people. So I feel like maybe Demi and I have connected in some sort of quiet people zone. My gut feels like Cara just wants to start some shit and just tries to get in between that in some way, just for the drama sake of it all. Brings her sex bench energy to this because, why not cause chaos, if you can? Also a Leo, she’s going to be like, hello, why is the attention not on me?

Drew: So the question that I have is Cara breaking up your and Demi’s beautiful by going for you or going for Demi? Which one of you strays?

Christina: And that’s what I can’t… Hmm. Hmm. My gut feels like I have to say Demi, but that’s only because I don’t feel like I would do that. And I feel kind of bad saying that Demi would do that, again, a person I do not know and will probably never know. But maybe because I’m not doing that.

Drew: Yeah. But I feel like you’re loyal out of laziness. So I don’t know if you have to feel bad about it.

Christina: Absolutely. That’s a notorious motto, be lazy because it’s easy.

Drew: Yeah.

Christina: Hello.

Drew: Okay.

Christina: Yeah. And I also think Cara would exhaust me.

Drew: Yeah. That’s probably true. I’d love to see it though.

Christina: Oh sure. I could be tired for like a weekend. I could be tired for like a weekend or two.

Drew: Okay. This is the last one. It is Kiki Palmer.

Christina: Fun.

Drew: Hunter Schafer, who was put back in the hat because of age differences. And me. Wow. I love that I’m a part of this. What? Happy birthday to me.

Christina: Okay. So Drew is in love with both Kiki Palmer and Hunter Schafer. That’s where we’re starting.

Drew: Of course.

Christina: I don’t really know where we’re ending from there because that just seems like what’s going to happen. See, Kiki has this, what I love about Kiki Palmer, one of the many things I love about Kiki Palmer, is the fact that she is 27 years old and has the energy of a 45 year old Black woman at all moments of the day. I think it’s incredible to have such huge auntie energy at her young age. And I just feel like in a love triangle scenario, she’d be like, “Oh no, I’m a child of God. I got to go. This is not for me. Y’all do what you need to do, but I am all set with this.” So perhaps you and Kiki have hooked up in the past and now Hunter has entered the scene and Hunter’s like, Ooh, I got a crush on this person. And perhaps Kiki is just like, yeah, I’m letting it go.

Drew: Wait, Hunter has a crush on me? Not Kiki?

Christina: Of course.

Drew: Oh, thank you. Wow.

Christina: Come on.

Drew: Wow. What a world, where I’m hooking up with Kiki Palmer. And then that has to end because I start dating Hunter Schafer.

Christina: I mean what a world in which I’m too lazy to cheat on Demi Lovato. There’s a lot of worlds that we’re going through.

Drew: Wow.

Christina: Yeah. But I think you guys definitely vibe, but I think it ends because Hunter is like, mm, I want to do more with my life. I want to get out there and experience some shit. She’s young.

Drew: I mean, I know. That’s fine.

Christina: I know. And Kiki’s like, if anybody wants to come over on Sunday for brunch, you’re welcome.

Drew: Oh, so Kiki and I stay friends?

Christina: I think everybody stays friends in this scenario.

Drew: Oh, that’s nice. That’s nice. Ok, I like that

Christina: I don’t think there’s actual hurt feelings. I think everyone’s like, yeah, growth. It needs to happen.

Drew: Yeah. That’s great. I love this. Well, this was a pleasure. Thank you for playing with me.

Christina: Thank you for, I’m calling this The Newsboy Cap game.

Drew: Great. Move over Love Triangles. It’s now a Newsboy Cap.

Christina: Yeah. No, that was really fun.

Drew: I’m so glad. Well, I think it’s time that we get into our main topic of the week with our very special guest. So our topic this week is first dates, and, very special guest, do you want to introduce yourself?

Analyssa: I do. Thank you for asking. I’m Analyssa and I am the co-host of Autostraddle’s To L and Back podcast with Drew and with Riese. So when Drew and Christina did their intro, I had to bite my tongue to not say, “I’m Analyssa!” Which is usually my intro.

Christina: You did a great job, and I thank you’re honored to hear it, truly.

Analyssa: Yeah. I help co-host the To L and Back podcast, I’ve written a few things for Autostraddle. I work at a TV studio, so the Love Triangles game felt very specially made for my presence also. Long time listener, first time caller.

Christina: Incredible.

Analyssa: Et cetera, et cetera. Hello everyone.

Drew: And also, my roommate. So actually, we are recording this separately for sound purposes, but we are in rooms with a wall between us.

Christina: It’s really beautiful stuff. And I love this synergy, this Autostraddle cross promotional jargon.

Analyssa: It’s a little bit like, did I get on the pod because of nepotism? Like kind of.

Christina: Yes. But in fairness to you, all of our guests have gotten on the pod so far because of nepotism. So?

Drew: Ana, can I ask you something publicly on this podcast? As I reference the wall in between our rooms. I can’t use my vibrator while people are home, right? Our walls are too thin. Or have you not heard? Have you not heard it?

Analyssa: I’ve heard one sex noise from your room.

Drew: Okay. Once isn’t bad.

Christina: Well, now I have some follow up questions. Just one lone sex noise? Or was it a continued rumble of a vibrator?

Analyssa: No, I just mean one instance.

Christina: Gotcha.

Drew: Okay. I can live with that.

Analyssa: And we can talk about that offline because I think I know when it was, so if you have more questions we can chat.

Drew: Cool.

Christina: I would love to be involved.

Drew: Yeah. Christina, you can come.

Christina: Also happy to mail anybody some sort of white noise machine, I think could also do wonders.

Drew: I was going to, because I have a quieter vibrator. Anyways, this can all be worked out later, but it did seem like a fun thing to ask publicly since I have been mildly mortified, not mortified. We all masturbate, not all of us, but maybe all, I don’t know. A lot of us, it’s fine. It’s normal. But it also like, I want to be a respectful roommate.

Analyssa: Sure. You seem super fine and normal about this.

Drew: Cool. Let’s talk about first dates.

Christina: Absolutely, let’s talk about first dates. As we were thinking of things to talk about for this. I was like, first dates, of my lack of liking to date. The thing I do the most is go on first dates and then not do anything else. So I felt like this was a good combo. Also, it seems a little bonkers that we haven’t had a first date convo yet on the pod. So I want to know what everybody’s ideal first date is.

Analyssa: That’s a great question. I was just going to say in your defense, there was a, and still continues to be, I personally call it a pandemonium. I know from listening to the pod that Christina calls it a Paul Blart, Mall Cop. Sometimes I call it a pon de replay.

Christina: I love a pon de replay. I’ve called it a Pottery Barn a couple of times

Analyssa: A Panda Express sometimes.

Christina: I love a Panda Express.

Analyssa: So there hasn’t been a lot of first dating.

Drew: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Christina: There really hasn’t. There really hasn’t. Who would like to answer my question first?

Drew: I can. So my ideal first date is a date that starts off… It’s less of a specific, “Oh, I want to be here and do this thing.” But it is a first date that starts off as a casual day date that then morphs into a classic lesbian 12-hour date, 24-hour date, long weekend. I love the idea that you go in with these very mild expectations. And then somehow you end up before sunrise, all over the city.

Christina: I’m glad that you got the ‘before sunrise’ portion in before I did because that’s exactly where I was going.

Drew: I know myself.

Christina: It is not surprising to me that that is your ideal first-date energy. Just absolutely bonding, vibing all over the place, having feelings, having chemistry. I imagine there’s some cute make-outs tucked around on that first afternoon wandering the cities.

Drew: Oh no, I think it’d be more in keeping with before sunrise. Let’s say the date’s 12 hours, I think it’s taking eight to get to a kiss.

Christina: See? Now, I just don’t have that kind of time. I mean, in the words of the great Ursula, I’m a very busy woman and I haven’t got all day. I just feel like, what are we doing here? I think it’s amazing though, that you would want to spend that long with a person, ever.

Drew: Yeah. Ana, what’s your ideal first date?

Analyssa: I really wanted to quote Miss Congeniality when she said—

Christina: And who didn’t?

Analyssa: “My idea… ” Also iconic Demi Lovato, “My favorite dish is mugs,” whatever, it’s fine. I personally try to build in an option for a second activity if it’s going well. So it’s sort of what Drew’s saying, but less slow burn, beautiful romance and more garbage rat, let’s go be idiots somewhere. I would love to do a drinks-ish in the six to 8:00 PM range. And then I’d try to pick a location that has a fun, easy food thing near it. So we could go to a diner for pancakes at nine if we’re vibing and having fun. We could go walk down the street and get shawarma. It’s good because there’s an out if you are hungry and you don’t want to keep hanging out with the person. You can be like, “I really have to go. I’ve got to get some food,” and then you’re near a place that’s fun. But if you’re liking the person, then you’re near a place that has food and you can go together.

Christina: I like that. I love a built-in stop time more so than a… I just love having an absolute… I love having a hard out, much like a meeting. “We’re going to have to have this wrapped in an hour and a half because I’ve got to go.” Granted, it can be a flexible hard-out, depending on again, the vibe. Rarely am I going to be like, “Ooh, I want to vibe all the way to a second location with someone.” But I will if the vibe is right. Be happy to be like, “Oh, we got drinks, let’s get food.” I’m also famously lazy, so we’re going to a place that has good drinks and food. I’m not traveling to do something else. No, no. But if it’s good, we could hang out for maybe longer than an hour and a half. Who can say?

Drew: Wow.

Christina: But I do like having a built-in emergency parachute in case the vibes are, “Ooh.” Sometimes the vibes are bleh.

Analyssa: Sometimes the vibes are bleh.

Christina: Even if the lead-up is good, you get in person and you’re like, “Something went left. I don’t know what, but we’ve gone left somehow.”

Drew: Yeah. I think for me, I’m just always like, well, if it’s not going well, I can always be like, oh, well I have to go. This was fun. Once the first activity, be it, you have a drink or you finish your meal or you finish walking around the museum or whatever it is, you can just leave.

Christina: Yeah. Why does my gut feel like Drew is more activity-based in a date? I feel like you want to do a thing more so than have a drink or just go get a drink. I feel like Drew is like, “I want to go experience an art or do a thing.”

Analyssa: You’ve hit the nail on the head.

Drew: That used to really be my thing. That used to really be like… I was actually talking to Analyssa about this yesterday, that when I was in college, museum dates were my thing. And the reasoning behind it was, if the date doesn’t go well, at least I’ve gotten to go to a museum. And two, I was a student in college, obviously. And so museums were mostly free or heavily discounted. Also, when you walk around a museum, there’s so much stimulus that there’s always something to joke about, talk about. So if it’s going well, the art around enhances it and if it’s not going well, it’s not that awkward because you can just look at art quietly. Or one time I did wander pretty far off into the exhibit solo, and then we met back up. There was a lot of flexibility, but I think as I’ve gotten older, it does just become a thing where that can be a lot of investment. I think my dating has become a lot more “normal.” And since I do tend to just get a drink or I don’t know. I really love a walk-around though. We talked about this on Bad With Money of meet in a park and just have a park hang or just… I don’t know. I went on a date in Cincinnati. We just met at a coffee shop, but then it was like, oh, she was from Cincinnati and I wasn’t. And so then we just walked around and I got to see the city through this person’s… I don’t know. I do think what I describe as my dream date, I tend to manufacture it and make it happen. I mean, it doesn’t usually go before sunrise level because usually I’m not in love with someone.

Christina: Sure.

Drew: Analyssa just gave a skeptical look that I’m usually not in love with someone.

Christina: I briefly held mine back. I thought that was good friendship was.

Drew: No. Yeah, I can be roasted whenever. But yeah, so I do like an activity and I do think I’d like to do that more than I maybe was doing pre-pandemic dating-wise. I’ve really gotten to a boring zone of getting drinks.

Christina: This is huge Venus and Sag energy, really, leaping from the page and by page, I mean the Zoom. But hello, we all understand. Yeah, I do understand that, the desire to at least have some fail safe built in for the awkward feeling if a date isn’t going well, and you’re just sitting at a bar, morosely looking at someone who is boring you. That is kind of tough. What I was going to say about the museum ideas, it’s very easy to lose somebody in a museum. It’s a big spot. “Oh, I don’t know where you went. Whoops.” I don’t think I would actually do that, it seems like, even for me, a little too mean, but a possibility.

Analyssa: I think what I’ve learned from Drew telling me about the museum dates is that Drew and I have different anxieties because if I were walking quietly with someone in a museum, the whole time my brain would be going, “Do they not like me? Are we not having fun? Are we having fun? Are they just interested in this art or are they not interested in me?” There’s just a lot more going on.

Christina: I think I have similar brain space. I’d be like, “This isn’t actually clear to me.”

Analyssa: Yeah, to be confused about, whereas if I’m at a bar or a coffee shop or a park or a restaurant, I can tell if we’re vibing. And if someone is boring, look, above all, I’m my own best friend. And I can vibe with me endlessly. If we’re not clicking, I’m going to try to make it short. But I still am going to finish my coffee that I’ve ordered. And while we’re doing that, I’m going to get some jokes off. I’m going to practice my tight five for a little bit. It’s been a while since I’ve met a new person. I’m going through my thing. And sometimes that works on people and sometimes it doesn’t.

Christina: Wow. I can’t imagine. I had a friend who had a very similar energy who was like, “Even if I go on a bad date, I’m still on a date with myself. I absolutely rock. I’m having the time of my life,” which I think is a really admirable energy to bring into a space.

Drew: Yeah. I mean, I’ve definitely been on dates where I leave the date and I go, “Well, that wasn’t good, but they’re going to be obsessed with me because I was killing it. I was so funny. I was so charming, and they gave me nothing.” And then those people reach out and are like, “Oh my God, I had the best time.” And I’m like, “Yeah, no shit. You had a good time, but I don’t want to see you again.”

Christina: Yes, that has happened.

Analyssa: Where’s everyone meeting their date prospects? I know we’ve again been in an aforementioned pon de replay, but when you’re on the dating scene, where are you guys getting your… Split a pie chart for me. Where are your dates mostly coming from?

Christina: I would say in the olden days, probably mostly various dating apps. When I would meet people that I would date who were acquaintances or friends of friends, we would always have some meeting-at-a-party moment, which was fine and fun. But for the most part, I think that classic first date experience to me is very much tied in with, also we’ve been messaging on whatever platform and I’m like, “Okay, let’s pick it up. Let’s meet in a space, in real space.”

Analyssa: Okay. Drew, you answered my question. I’m the host.

Christina: I love being interviewed.

Analyssa: I’m the podcast host now.

Christina: Yeah, I feel like we’ve just been Captain Phillips-d, it’s incredible.

Analyssa: Literally, I’m the captain now. Okay Drew, you go. And then I have a question for Christina.

Drew: Okay. So I would say that if you looked at the pie chart, the majority of my first dates have come from dating apps. But if quality was taken into account, I would say that the majority of my best dates were from people who I met either through mutual friends, at a house party, love a house party, love meeting someone at a house party, and then going on a date a week later, that is the best. Or Instagram flirting, leading to dates. But numbers-wise, dating apps. And I’ve had some good dates from dating apps, but that’s also where I have most of my boring dates.

Christina: Yeah. That’s where most of the flops are located also.

Analyssa: Okay. So then for both of you, what’s the length of time you talk to someone before you pitch an in-person date?

Christina: I used to be like, “Oh, we could just message and that’s it.” No, I am 32 years old. I’m not doing that anymore. If we’re vibing, if your text style is not exhausting me via the messaging app, here’s my number, let’s plan a date. Let’s go. Can we move it forward, which has been helpful because who just has the time? Who has the time to be constantly messaging? And once you fall into that constantly messaging space, I feel like some of that urgency is lost. And that’s the fun part of a first date. Like, ooh, I can’t wait to meet this person. But now it’s like, oh, I don’t know. I’m just texting somebody on a different platform. We’ll get to it. So now I’m like, let’s go. Try to make this happen.

Drew: Yeah. I’ve been on a similar journey, especially with dating apps where I think with dating apps now, it’s more like one conversation, I’m ready. I mean, during the pandemic, it’s been a little bit different. But even then it’s been one conversation, phone call. One conversation, FaceTime, ideally, if that’s the vibe. I don’t know. But also during the pandemic, when it’s not been on dating apps, I’ve been really slow burn just because it was like, well, why? You know? And it’s just fun to have. I mean, as I’ve talked about on this podcast, it’s fun to have people on Instagram who you’re flirting with and whatever. So it was a year before I asked for a FaceTime date from the person who I’m dating now. And we were just Instagram flirting. But then in contrast to one of the people who I went on a date with in Cincinnati from a dating app, it was like, “What are you doing?” They’re like, “This is fun. What are you doing tomorrow?” And then, so… What about you?

Christina: I would like you to answer your own questions, madam. Turning the tables back.

Analyssa: I’m not taking questions at this time, sorry. No, I think we all have… I’m surprised actually. I didn’t think we would all have such similar answers.

Christina: Great minds.

Analyssa: But I think I am similar. I think I am less discerning about the vibe over text or I’m trying to be, because Drew has heard a lot of this just as my friend and roommate.

Christina: I can’t wait to hear it.

Analyssa: But if I look back at the past things that have worked both off dating apps and on dating apps, dates and relationships and whatever, it falls into this bantery, constant texts all the time thing, which is really fun and something I enjoy having. But also I’m a Sagittarius, so I will get obsessed with doing that because it’s fun. And then three weeks later, I will hate it with every fiber of my being. I will be so annoyed that I have to continue texting someone.

Christina: Sagittarius and their inability to text, that’s really something.

Analyssa: Yeah. And I also have ADHD. So we’re really in a perfect storm for me to be like, “Yes, I will text you every two minutes, three texts in a row, but only for a couple of weeks. Get it while it lasts.”

Christina: Get it while the gettin’s good.

Analyssa: Exactly. And so I’m trying to be less attached to that style of texting must be happening in the dating app for me to go meet someone because I don’t know, I have friends who don’t text in the same manner that I do, and we’re friends. You know what I mean?

Christina: Yeah.

Analyssa: It takes all kinds. I think I’m, from what the two of you have said, trying to be a little more like, “If we exchange four messages on an app and I don’t think you’re the most boring person alive, I don’t know, let’s go hang out for an hour. Let’s just see if it works.”

Christina: So what you’re saying is, you’re trying to be open and receptive to meeting new people and having new experiences?

Analyssa: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Christina: What some might call the point of dating? That’s huge.

Analyssa: That is sort of what I’m saying.

Christina: Huge.

Drew: I want to talk about day dates versus night dates, and how we feel because I know some people can be very anti day-date.

Christina: I think I was for a while, but in my elderly ages now, I feel like I am less. I’m better in the day, frankly. I’m not great at night. I’m really good in the day. So a day date is very fine with me. But definitely when I was younger, I was like, “A date during the day? Harrowing, who could do such a thing?”

Analyssa: Yeah. I think there’s this conception that only night dates can be romantic. There’s something about the image of a dark bar or under street lights or dark and broody, and smoochy is the vibe. And day dates don’t really feel like that. There’s a lot of overhead light normally, but I don’t know. I think it’s also, I’m also trying to come around on those. I mean, one thing about me personally is that I stopped drinking about a year ago, so that has changed too, what I think of what a date must be. Because it used to be like we’d go to a bar and I’d have two beers and that’s it. But then sometimes you have two beers and again, I’m my own best friend. You’re really just vibing with yourself, it’s hard to stop that from happening. And on day dates, I actually find it much easier to be a person who is engaging and listening to the other person. And we’re having actual conversations instead of thinking about what will happen next. I’ve sort of moved up the hours of my dates is what I’m trying to say. I’m more open to a window — you know how on Hinge you can change your date age range? My date range has shifted a little bit, I think.

Christina: Has shifted?

Analyssa: Yeah.

Christina: Yeah. How about you, Drew?

Drew: Yeah. So I find that day dates are a lot more challenging and a lot more anxiety-provoking, and I mean some of that’s probably sobriety of I don’t generally drink during the day and if I ask someone to have a day date, alcohol is probably not going to be involved, whereas if it’s at night, it’s a lot more likely that I will be drinking. And so I think why I like day dates is that anxiety mixed with being sober.

Analyssa: You just pitched this as, “So this is really tough and actually that’s why I love it.”

Drew: Well, I think it can be hard if I’m going on a lot of dates, it can be challenging, but what I’ve learned is that dates can be awkward and that is not bad. And so when I accepted that, I honestly don’t get that nervous anymore and I don’t really have that big of a problem. If I’m sitting across from someone at a coffee shop, or in a park, or wherever and there’s silence.

Analyssa: Oh, Drew has a really good move on this, actually.

Drew: Yeah, I just will sit, and I’ll just make eye contact, and smile a little bit, and it’s genuine. I genuinely just have gotten to a place where I’m like, it is fine that we have stopped talking because we just met each other, so we’re still learning how we communicate. And so the fact that there is this silence while one of us thinks of what we want to talk about next isn’t a sign of failure or lack of connection, it’s just part of it being a first date. And usually what happens is the other person gets a little bit giggly because I’m just sitting there confidently smiling and okay being quiet. It didn’t start as a flirt move but I realized that it actually really works. It’s a flirty move.

Christina: Yeah, this totally tracks.

Drew: It’s just genuinely being like, I’m comfortable even though this is awkward, those aren’t antithetical to each other. So you can be comfortable.

Christina: That’s really beautiful, honestly.

Analyssa: I think the first time Drew told me about this move, again, not a planned one, but about this turning into a opportunity for a flirty moment, you were saying there’s some responses too that if you want to increase the flirtiness, you can be like, “You look so cute,” or whatever you want to toss in there. It’s fun. I have a few — not moves, but things tucked in my back pocket that I like to do if a date is going well, or I’d like to amp it up, or whatever, and that’s a good one to add to a—

Christina: That was actually going to be a followup I asked, does everybody have a first date move? I don’t know that I do. One of my first date moves is guaranteeing not asking any questions. I will come back from a date and my friends will be like, “How was it? What do they do? Where do they live?” And I’ll be like, “No idea. I got nothing.” I don’t know what I converse about on dates, but it’s never any relevant information that anybody would want to hear on a followup because I’m always like oh man, I’m sure they have a job. I don’t know what it is.

Drew: Oh, wow.

Analyssa: But that’s kind of nice though, because I think I tend toward trying to ask people questions so that I can seem engaged, but I then think sometimes it ends up feeling like, did I just interview this person? Did we just do an informational meeting instead of a flirty thing?

Christina: I always worry that I just did a 45 minute bit and left, and I was like I don’t know what just happened. Did they say anything? It’s highly possible they didn’t.

Analyssa: You guys were just improv partners for 45 minutes. Yeah, I have a couple of moves, et cetera. I have some standard outfits. I think that’s important to just have a shirt, or a pair of pants, or a pair of shoes, or an earring that you just love and know looks good on you, and if you put them on, you’re going to feel like hot shit. That’s not really a move on the date, but just generally. This is so crazy. This is so crazy that I’m admitting this, not the tip is crazy. I try to sit at the bar or somewhere, depending on where we go, arrange myself so that we will be sitting close enough to touch. This is why I don’t usually do meals on dates because you sit across the table, there’s not a lot of opportunity for playful, like oh my God — you can’t see what I’m doing with my hand — oh my God, leaning into someone.

Christina: I knew in my heart exactly what you were doing with your hand. I was like I know that.

Analyssa: Like a hand on someone’s knee or arm, or “oh my God, no!” That kind of stuff. You know what I mean.

Christina: I know exactly what you mean.

Analyssa: And I’ve found that really helps me because one of my love languages is physical touch, so I like to be connected in that way. And I like to just think about a couple of things I have going on in my life that are fun and interesting when I get to a date, just to remember that I’m a cool person who has topics to talk about. You don’t need a note card, but just the last movie you watched that you thought was really fun or I don’t know, anything that you can pivot if you’re stuck and be like, “Oh, that reminds me.” That’s not really a “is the date going well, let’s ramp it up,” it’s just how to remain normal for me on a date.

Christina: I love how to remain normal. It’s just a concept, a vibe. I was thinking that, especially in that sitting at a bar scenario, if the date is going well, there absolutely will be a moment where I’m like oh, it’s time to reorganize myself, and now I am facing this person in a more direct way. I’m probably doing some sort of slutty leg cross. That’s definitely a move.

Analyssa: Yeah, if we’re sitting at a bar and the date is going well, I will turn my whole body towards you and put my leg on the rung of your bar stool. Do you know what I mean? My leg is now near or under you, which is like I’ve leaned in, here I am. That’s ideal.

Christina: Yeah, that’s the good move.

Analyssa: I can remember a couple of times that I’ve pulled this and I’ve been like yeah, that works. That was good.

Christina: Just hook, line, and sinker, baby. Drew, what are your moves? Tell us your moves.

Drew: Well okay, so other than the one I said, I don’t know if I have any, because the other thing about me is that, as I’ve talked about on this podcast, I was in a relationship when I transitioned and then broke up with that person in early 2019, and then I basically had a year of dating before the pandemic happened. So so much of my dating experience was skewed through pre-transition, and I was in college, and so both of those things together, I have to split my brain, because I was about to say that I don’t go into first dates with really any expectation of anything physical, which I think is still true, but I think statistically, it has changed a bit more. But I think if I’m going on a date, not like “oh, this is very clearly a hookup,” which I think, even if it’s your first time meeting, it is a slightly different dynamic, but a proper date, I would say I still, even since 2019, it mostly does not get sexual, meaning even we don’t kiss. And I think I like to have the date, and unless it goes really well, unless it is a magical all day and night, et cetera, thing, but even I’ve had those and we still haven’t kissed. I think, this is so weird, but if I’m choosing to be slutty, then I can be slutty. I can go over to someone’s place before I’ve met them and we can have sex. But if I’m on a date, I think there’s just a different energy for me, and I’m cautious for things to get physical.

Christina: This actually coincides with you’re “I don’t sext with people that I haven’t already had sex with.” This is a similar energy. I mean I will say that I mean if I can swing a make-out, I’m going to swing a make-out. I definitely have a go-to lip stain that is non-transferable. If we can have one, we’re going to have one, but I have often had many a date where I’m like yeah, everything was good. We did not make out though, or there was not any kissing, but we are going to go on another date. I have definitely done that. So yeah, I don’t know that it’s as delineated for me as it is for you, but I understand that energy.

Analyssa: I always kiss on a first date, unless it is so clear that it — with the caveats of as long as the other person wants to kiss me.

Drew: Sure, of course.

Analyssa: But unless it’s going so clearly in the direction of we are not going to see each other again, I physically need to know, my body is like okay, so what are we going to do with this information if we don’t know how the kiss goes? And this is another move that I have in a date is I will mention that casually. I can’t really think of an example of how I’ve done that.

Christina: That was going to be my followup.

Analyssa: I simply don’t know, but I know that I have many times been like, “Yeah, because I always kiss on a first date, ha ha ha.” And then at the end, it’s like, “So are we doing that or what’s going on?” If I make it about me, then there’s a really easy, not pressuring someone to kiss me at the end of the date because I don’t make it like a wrestling championship belt that I wear into dates, to be clear, but it does sometimes, just over the course of things, come up.

Drew: Yeah. Okay, so another move of mine, which this is something I also really recommend people do if they’re getting trapped in this Tinder, “Hey, what’s up? How you doing?” stuff is be sexual. Not in a creepy way, but bring up sex. That’s something that I think works for me a lot because I think I am always very uptight about seeming creepy or being too forward is that I won’t talk about the other person sexually, I will just talk generally about sex, which because I write about sex often, there is a easy pivot from what do I do as a career to talking about sex. Also, I don’t recommend talking about your ex if there’s still feelings or complicated whatever, or if it’s sad, or abusive, or traumatic, or whatever, but I do think that the stereotype that lesbians go on dates and talk about their trauma, and also their six exes, that can be pivoted in a way that I think actually really works, which is if you talk about relationship history, it can very easily get into sex, very easily get into what you’re into. I don’t know, I think that is my way of first broaching those things as opposed to it being me speaking sexually about us.

Christina: Yeah. I do think for me, the transition to being a person who went for the first kiss more was that I would leave dates and be like I think that was good, but I don’t really know. And a good or bad kiss is a very clear way of being like, I do not want to see this person again, or I do want to see this person again, or at least helping me decide what context in which I want to see that person again.

Analyssa: Yeah, or even sometimes I’ve had an awkward kiss after a date that I thought was really good, and I’ve gone home and been like okay, I want to try that again though. I want to figure it out. A bad kiss can end something that was on the fence of maybe I’ll go on another date, but it can also cement oh, maybe I do want to do more of that just to see if we can figure it out, because I like them.

Christina: Right, we’re in the information gathering stage. Here we are, and for me, a person who likes to have sex, allegedly, I think, I used to anyway.

Analyssa: Reportedly.

Christina: Rumor has it. That is a part of the fact finding mission that we’re on on this date. Maybe I should just call dates fact finding missions.

Drew: I like that. I think the big shift for me that made my relationship to dating be a lot healthier and just more fun was when I stopped going into dates thinking about whether I wanted a second date, I tried to save that for later, thinking about dating as, I’m going to meet this person, and I get to meet a new person, and taking pleasure in that, and not going in thinking oh my God, are they going to like me? Or oh my God, am I going to like them? And obviously, it’s hard, especially if it’s a date with someone who you are really into theoretically or whatever, but we really never know what people are meant to be for us. And I think that’s why so many of my closest friends, I’ve met because we went on a date or whatever, and then nothing happened but then just stayed friends, because I went into it being not oh my God, is this person going to be who I start dating? But oh, I get to meet a person.

Christina: Yeah, I think that is definitely a part of thinking about… I also get that oh, what’s next? I get that my brain starts running with, okay, so then what does it mean in three weeks? Just wild, not even doom fantasies, but just all of these things that are probably not going to happen based on this one single interaction we’ve had. I don’t need to go down this road of okay, six months from now, I’ve got these plans. Well, what is this person going to mean? How am I going to work them in? We don’t need to do all that. That’s just stressing me out and that’s not fun for anybody.

Analyssa: Yeah, I think I have had a pretty good time of separating those out on the first date, being in the date when I’m there, but it is all that post… okay, we had a pretty good time, now what? Should I do another date? And then I start getting into what I just described, which is okay, well I could do next week, but then we’re just on a weekly dating schedule. Is that how it goes? That build up between we just met and we don’t know each other at all, and the next stage, which is now we are actually more comfortable in dating, I can just come over to your house for dinner type vibe. Those in-between however many weeks, months, whatever, I don’t know, whatever you guys do, that’s where I get a little lost sometimes.

Christina: A little lost in the weeds.

Analyssa: Yeah, a little spun around in there.

Drew: The last thing that I want to talk about is that unfortunately the pandemic isn’t ending, and so I know my relationship to dating has shifted since early pandemic, when I wouldn’t meet anyone, but I guess I wanted to just bring us specifically to pandemic first dates, be it virtual, be it in-person, what are we thinking? Have either of you been dating during the pandemic at all? Has things changed in the most recent months versus the first year of the pandemic?

Christina: Let’s be clear, haven’t gone on dates in forever, but I do think my mindset around it has shifted. Definitely first year of pandemic, I was like well, she doesn’t date and she simply can’t. Incredible work, me. But I do think there is now a level of comfort, and also just with understanding of more science of we can go meet out, we can grab a drink outside, we could, again, famously sit in a park. There are more outdoor activities. I also live in a city that stays pretty warm for a while, so that will be helpful were I to go on a date. And then navigating how comfortable are we being indoors and unmasked? That conversation has definitely been one that has been interesting to navigate just with friends and various circles of friend groups, and I’m not sure what that’s going to look like going forward but I do think now, it does feel less stressful in the way that even thinking about meeting a new person in the last year was like no, a new human with their breathing? No, absolutely can’t have that. So I do think it’s probably for the best that it’s like a little chiller, but it’s still scary, like it’s a scary world out there.

Drew: Yeah.

Analyssa: Yeah. I did two virtual dates last year during the time of like, people can’t breathe near me or I will simply perish. And then I had this flirtation with a friend of a friend and we kind of… It was like clear that it was sort of reaching and it was like reaching a time where we had to do something or not. And so we went on a date in the park last summer and that was like, sort of Christina, I think the thing that you’re getting into here like, I didn’t have a ton of fun with that because it… I had fun on the date, but I mean, the planning of it, there’s so many more variables to be asking about. I wish we had like a shorthand, like ASL, like age sex location, question mark, but for like “vax, masked, outdoors?” Like, what are we doing here? Because I found that it just took up a lot more logistics. So it was like, okay, are you an outside person? Do you want us to be in masks? Are you… Obviously vaccines weren’t a thing then, but where should we go? That was a lot harder than just like, what neighborhood are you coming from and where should we pick to meet? I’ve gone on dates with two different people since July, August, two or three and it feels a little more comfortable now because there are places outside. I just kind of go in being like, I will do an outside drinks, now what? That’s where we’re at. So I think everyone’s comfort level is still shifting and there’s no…. God knows our government isn’t going to tell us what we’re allowed to do.

Christina: Yeah. I do think it has just helped, like having a year of learning how to have these kinds of conversations. I do think it was definitely harder the last year and now it doesn’t feel as bonkers to be like, “You’re vaxxed, we’re all wearing masks inside and you’re good to hang out outside?” I think those conversations feel less stressful than they did last year because it was like, “Ooh, what can of worms might I be opening with this conversation now?” But I do think a year of learning how to have those has helped. I’m simply not going on a virtual date, I will say that. I’m not opening another ding, dang, Zoom window as long as I live, except for this one that I’m on.

Analyssa: I will not do a virtual date unless it’s like someone far away whom I’m in love with. Although I have sort of sworn that off after doing that in 2019 also. So I don’t see that happening from Ana, but who knows?

Drew: So pre-vaccinated, like pre-vaccine, I went on two in-person dates, one was outside wearing masks and far apart.

Analyssa: Very Portrait of a Lady on Fire.

Drew: Yeah. The masks never came off to lead to a passionate kiss unfortunately. And then the other one was like, my roommates were gone, the person came over and watched movies inside. It was like, we decided to take that risk, whatever. And then since, I mean, I also went on so many virtual dates during that, so many. And then this past summer, I think my relationship to it is just like, I would rather have a one-on-one date with someone if I know they’re vaccinated than go to a restaurant with that person even if we stay outside, stay… I think for me I’m less concerned about the risk of meeting one person, even if I don’t know them super well. And I’m also not going to ask someone to show me their vaccine card. I’m just going to take someone at their word and that’s just a choice that I’m making. And so I think even still as I date other people, I still would see them regularly, but also then it’s the really loaded thing, right? Of like probably the most comfortable I’d be is like going to one of our places, but then that feels like very hookup energy, not very date energy. So then that’s a different thing. And so then it… I don’t know, I haven’t… Since I got back from traveling around, I haven’t been on a date in LA and the person who I’m dating is coming out to LA in a couple of weeks and so like, I’ll see her, but I’m not doing a lot of dating right now. One because I’m falling in redacted, and like, so I’m just like—

Analyssa: The faces is on this Zoom just—

Drew: … but I think if there was—

Analyssa: Christina and my eyebrows were in our hairlines just now.

Drew: … but I think if there wasn’t a pandemic, I would feel more at ease to go on dates with other people. But I think it’s just the risk for me when I’m like, well, I’m going to see someone in a couple… I think I’m having what a lot of people had early pandemic where they’re like, “ah, this pandemic has made me monogamous,” where I’m like, it has… I’m still on one dating app and I’m still like, would meet up with people. But it’s just all risk assessment now in a way that is even more so than regular life, so I don’t know. If I’m going to go on a date with someone, I don’t really… If I’m going to go on the date, I don’t want it to be like, we’re wearing masks and we’re six feet apart. I’m sort of like either I’ve decided that you’re worth the risk or I’ve decided that you’re not, so that’s sort of where I’m at.

Christina: Yeah. I think I would agree with that statement. I think I feel that way about people most of the time, like either you’re worth the risk or you’re not, like. I just usually decide not.

Analyssa: That’s kind of like the policy for all dating.

Drew: Yeah.

Christina: Yeah. Does anyone else have any last takes on dating on first dates before we wrap this bad boy up and talk about crushes of our weeks?

Analyssa: I just want to put on record one last date move that I have, which is not about first dates, but I do really like if I think the first date went pretty well and we might like “Date” with a capital D, I like for a second date to be me offering to cook dinner at my home. I’m not a great cook, but I think it implies some commitment to the activity. I think then you can control the environment if things are going well and you want to hook up, you can do that but if not… Anyway, I always live with roommates so it doesn’t really happen very often, but sometimes the stars align.

Christina: I was going to say wish that I lived in a place that I could control the environment, my God.

Drew: Ana, if you want to cook dinner for someone who you had a good first date with, I will leave for the night, I will go stay at Gaby’s or stay somewhere and I’ll take Alex with me. You will be alone, you’ll have to house yourself.

Analyssa: That’s very kind of you. Not to brag, but we do have two stories in our home, so you guys would just be relegated to the upstairs.

Drew: That’s cool. That’s also fine.

Christina: Yeah. I guess I could try to pull… That’s just never going to happen at my chaos house, like there’s no way. I would be like, “Ooh, I’m bringing somebody over for dinner,” my housemates would be like “Cool, actually we’re having a bonfire and there’s another 10 people that are coming and also could you make a punch?” I’d be like, “What the fuck are you, oh goddammit.”

Analyssa: That could be kind of fun for a date too.

Christina: Chaos house is chaos house. People love it here.

Drew: Okay. So now is the part of the show where we say who our crushes of the week are. Analyssa, do you want to start us off?

Analyssa: Yes. I know that it’s part of the show and I came prepared. My crush of the week is Jessica Chastain specifically in the film by Guillermo del Toro that I watched this week, Crimson Peak.

Christina: She’s got a great energy in Crimson Peak.

Analyssa: She’s got an insane, like scary, incestuous energy that I was surprised that it did it for me because that sickly sort of thing is not usually for me, but it was giving very much mommy, sorry, mommy, sorry over and over. So that’s me. I watched that on Wednesday and I was like, “Oh, this is what I’m going to talk about.” She really got in there.

Christina: Yeah. For me, the song Ring of Keys is about her keys from Crimson Peak, so that’s me, all CT. Drew, who you crush on?

Drew: My crush of the week is Isabel Sandoval who directed Lingua Franca that’s on Netflix, you can watch it. I interviewed her for Autostraddle.com. So her first two movies, Señorita and Apparition are on the Criterion Channel, but when this episode comes out, they’re only going to be on the Criterion Channel for two more days. So I hope… I should have done this last week, but I wasn’t on top of it and so hopefully you have the time, but if you don’t and you haven’t seen Lingua Franca yet, that is going to still be on Netflix. And she’s just like… It’s just so rare because of the way that the industry works, that we have a trans woman who is an auteur and she really is, she’s just very engaged in film culture. She has a hilarious Letterboxd and just like, I love her online presence and her place in film culture. And she’s an incredible filmmaker and her movies are very hot, I mean, she’s very much committed to being like, oh yeah, sometimes being trans is hard and also we still are horny. And I’m just like, that is my religion, so I adore her and if you haven’t seen Lingua Franca, it’s on Netflix and if you haven’t seen Señorita and Apparition, you got two days, watch them.

Christina: Why don’t you give the people an actual date of when they are leaving the Criterion in case they are not listening.

Drew: They’re leaving at the end of September.

Christina: All right, good. I love that Letterboxd is just like where auteurs and critics who are really smart go to be absolute lunatics. I just love the energy of like Letterboxd reviews from people I really respect and love reading their writing. And then I read their Letterboxd reviews and I’m like, okay, absolutely, sure, go off, kings.

Analyssa: It has the vibe of Tumblr because it feels like there’s only about 12 people using Letterboxd, even though that’s patently not true and so people are just like, I can say anything here.

Christina: Yes. That’s really incredible. My crush of the week, to be brand consistent, as you are hearing this in two short days, we will be introduced to Julianna Margulies on The Morning Show, who, as she said in her own words in a promo “happens to be a lesbian.” It does feel at this point like I should sue them because clearly this is coming from my timeline, like whomst else is banging such a consistent drum about older women, specifically dark haired, older women who should be gay. She’s really incredible, her vibe totally, totally different from the rest of The Morning Show, but guess what? So is everything on The Morning Show from everything else in The Morning Show. So it’s fine that she’s kind of well adjusted in this space of lunatics, it’s incredible. I love to see her. She wears a turtleneck underneath a collar shirt with a blazer and I just feel like that is like, wow, representation does matter to me in this space. So yeah, that’s my crush. Julianna, I’ve loved you since ER, you have a face like the sun.

Drew: Incredible. Well Analyssa, thanks so much for joining us.

Analyssa: Thank you for having me.

Drew: Can you tell people where to find you?

Analyssa: Oh sure. I’m on Twitter at @analoca_ with an underscore and I’m on Instagram at @analocaa with two A’s, a true branding nightmare. Well for the next three weeks on theTo L and Back podcast, until we say goodbye to the second season of Gen Q. And sometimes I write for Autostraddle, you can find my like eight articles there if that interests you.

Christina: Until we say goodbye to another perfect season of Gen Q is I think what you meant to say.

Analyssa: So true.

Christina: No notes, because it’s perfect?

Analyssa: And speaking of Letterboxd please do follow me, I’m just Analyssa on Letterboxd and I’m having a great time there.

Drew: Yeah. I feel like if you follow Analyssa on anything, Letterboxd should be the one that would make her happiest.

Analyssa: That’s true.

Christina: I’m going there right now for you.

Drew: Great. Well then that’s it, bye, that’s the end of this podcast. So then the last thing that we want to ask you is, was this a date?

Christina: Like, were we just on a date?

Analyssa: Is there any… I’m going to ask you guys a question back since I host this podcast now also, is there any opportunity for me to kiss either of you?

Christina: I heard you and Drew are separated by one wall.

Drew: Ooh, I think if we probably shouldn’t do that this early and I like to live with someone for, let’s see, what did I do last time? Like a good six months before we hooked up? So I want to give it a little bit of time.

Analyssa: Let’s keep it open-ended. Drew and I will kiss through this wall and then it will be confirmed a date.

Christina: Great. I’m famously on the other side of the country, so.

Drew: I want to blow you a kiss.

Analyssa: Boy on the plastic bubble, kind of kissing through the wall, now it’s a date.

Drew: Beautiful. Thank you so much for listening to Wait, Is This a Date? You can find us on Twitter and Instagram @waitisthisadate and you can also email us at waitisthisadate@gmail.com.

Drew: And you can find me on Twitter, Instagram, and TikTok @draw_gregory. And you can find Autostraddle on all social medias @autostraddle.

Christina: And go visit autostraddle.com because that’s the reason we’re all here today.

Drew: Thank you all so much and see you next week.

Christina: Yeah. We’ll absolutely see you next week, and we can’t wait.

Drew: Yeah, and maybe next week will be a date.

Christina: Hey, maybe it will be. Wilder things have happened.

Christina: The gayest thing about this podcast is that the outro is a boundary.

Drew, in a voice memo: You know in Fleabag, when she’s like, “I’m not obsessed with sex, I just can’t stop thinking about it, the performance of it, the awkwardness of it, the drama of it”? That’s how I feel about first dates. Like, whenever I haven’t been on a first date in a while, I just miss the rush. That’s also how I feel about sex. That’s a really good quote.

“To L and Back” Generation Q Podcast Episode 208: Launch Party

So is this is how season 2 implodes – not with a bang, but with a deeply confusing whimper? Welcome to this week’s episode of To L and Back where, honestly, we have some notes! We spend quite a bit of time talking about the writing of this episode of Gen Q, rather than the actual events that transpire, which as Riese says is….not always a great sign.

But among the needless conflicts (Dani thinking Bette would want to see the Nunez name on the CAC, and gambling Pippa’s show for leverage), the baffling conversations (Micah telling Claudia he has feeling for someone else to her FACE), and the upsetting events (Sophie and Finley’s whole deal), there were still some treats! Micah’s jawline, for one, and Gigi’s tongue, for two. Throw in a sex scene backlit by the soft neon lights of the Las Vegas strip and you still have a tough episode — but one that had a sex scene backlit by the soft neon lights of the Las Vegas strip.

SHOW NOTES

Riese’s recap of the episode, the comments of which are heartening to me
Candace the Carpenter draws Bette the Project Management Triangle in The L Word 1×12 “Looking Back” aka the Dinah Shore episode
Perhaps you, too, would have liked to spend more time with Isis King in this episode, and I would invite you to spend more time with her Instagram
Britni de la Cretaz wrote this insightful essay about how Gen Q struggled with sobriety storylines LAST SEASON and here we are again
A quick reminder that the Sackler family was not just “blacklisted,” they were actively bad!
Roxane Gay recently wrote the Criterion essay for Love & Basketball!

Drew: Hi, I’m Drew.

Analyssa: And I’m Annalyssa.

Riese: And I’m Riese.

All: And this is To L and Back, Generation Q edition.

Drew: Yay! We’re still together, but-

Analyssa: We are still together.

Drew: … the mood is-

Analyssa: The mood has shifted.

Drew: Yeah.

Analyssa: Dampened. Morale is low.

Riese: Morale is low. I’m not just saying that because I took two beta blockers today. My morale would’ve been low anyway.

Analyssa: Well, well, well, well, well, well. That’s how I feel.

Riese: Well.

Drew: I will say that sometimes the mood has been low in recording this podcast because of things going on in the world, and not that the world’s great. We are still in a pandemic.

Riese: Yeah, the world’s not great.

Drew: And there’s a lot of other things that are bad, but our mood is low today because of our topic of conversation.

Riese: Because we watched this episode today.

Drew: Yeah. So, this episode, that is episode 2.08, Launch Party, it’s directed by Haifaa al-Mansour who I actually really, really like. I’ve seen two of her movies: Wadjda and Mary Shelley. I really liked both of them. She’s directed a few other movies and she also directed an episode of The Wilds. I thought this episode was-

Analyssa: I like The Wilds.

Drew: Yeah. I thought this episode was very well-directed. That was not one of my problems with it.

Riese: I also liked The Wilds.

Drew: It was written by Melody Derloshon who wrote on Cougar Town and Future Man and wrote last season’s episode, LA Times.

Riese: Oh, I loved that one.

Analyssa: Which one was that one?

Riese: The threesome.

Drew: That’s the threesome.

Analyssa: Oh, great ep.

Drew: Yeah. But I think we might as well just get into it.

Transition Music…

Analyssa: Well, well, well.

Riese: We open at jail.

Analyssa: Well, so one thing I thought it just immediately was the color of Los Angeles in the open is so different than it has ever been in The L Word: Generation Q. It’s usually pinks and blues and this is gray and yellow: very Steven Soderbergh’s Los Angeles. and that’s how you know we’re going into a serious episode.

Drew: Yes.

Analyssa: Because as Riese said, yes, we’re in jail. Well, we’re not in jail. We’re at the steps of—

Riese: Yeah, we’re famously not in jail. Finley has emerged from her evening in jail. She did not have a nice time.

Drew: No. So we start with my first of many things that I have a problem with in this episode, which is that Finley makes a drop-the-soap joke, which I just thought culturally we’d understood that—

Riese: They made one in the original series!

Drew: In the original? Well yeah, of course they made-

Riese: They made like, two!

Drew: Of course they made one in the original series-

Riese: They love dropping the soap!

Drew: … 2004. But it’s just like, “Jesus.” I think prison rape jokes were just like we’ve all collectively decided that that’s not a thing we do anymore, but-

Riese: Surprise!

Drew: Nope. They’re still doing it.

Riese: It turns out that it is. Isn’t that the first line?

Drew: Yeah, but really, really-

Analyssa: Basically, yes.

Riese: I’m already in a bad mood.

Analyssa: Basically, Finley’s like, “Did you bring me pizza?” And then, “I didn’t drop the soap. Don’t worry.” And then, launches into all of the various details both of her night, which I found a little bit distasteful, her retelling of it, and then all the things that now she has to do. It sounds like she owes Sophie money. This whole thing was just a mess of details that I felt maybe this was not the time to share them or talk about them, but-

Riese: Okay. I would’ve liked to actually have rewritten the scene that led to this where they’re outside the car, and so I would love for that scene… Sophie realizes, “We’re both wasted,” like always because whenever they go out together they get wasted and it’s like, “We need to get a lift.” And Finley’s like, “No, no. I’m fine, I’m fine, I’m fine. I’m totally fine. Drive. I insist on driving. I’m definitely driving. I am the driver.” You know?

Analyssa: Right.

Riese: Just a little bit more of that. It would take two extra lines to make it hit a little harder I think.

Analyssa: Because as it is, sort of what we were talking about last episode, they both feel at fault quote unquote. Yes, Finley was the driver, but they both knew that they were both drinking. It just seems…

Riese: Yeah. They should have… First of all, when you go out, especially for them, they always get trashed, so always. And obviously, they’re both also… I mean, Finley’s always drinking a lot, but Sophie is going through a lot of shit right now, so she’s definitely going to be wasted. So why do they even drive there in the first place? But since they did, they would’ve talked about that at the beginning of the night like who’s going to drive, which they didn’t do either. Sophie was with Finley all night, so it’s not a surprise to her that Finley’s had several drinks. She actually saw her. I’m not saying that Sophie’s at fault for this, but they both made that decision about the driving. You know what I mean? So I think they should go halfsies on the impound.

Analyssa: Well it just-

Riese: But most of it’s on Finley.

Drew: Once again, I’m just constantly trying to figure out what these writers are doing. I’m just like, so if this is supposed to be Finley’s rock bottom, then I just am like, why are we muddling that unless it’s also…? I think as the episode goes on it’s also a wake-up call for Sophie, but I’m not sold on it. Just, Sophie’s journey does not feel clear to me.

Analyssa: And what I wish for Sophie’s journey is that you get the sense in this, that she is annoyed and peeved mostly at Finley’s just joking through it. It seems pretty evident that she wants Finley to take it seriously, which I think is totally fair. And I wish that, like you said, there’s two lines that could have been added where I’d be totally on Sophie’s side and I really wanted to be because I think I feel —

Riese: It doesn’t hit.

Analyssa: … it doesn’t land because I feel like we’ve seen her, especially to Finley, be so empathetic and so understanding. Drunk driving is bad, but this is a big deal for Finley too, and she’s clearly using humor to not talk about all the things that are actually going to happen. That is very annoying when you’re the person on the other side of it. But there was no line that said like, “Hey man, I’m trying to talk about a big night that you just had and you keep making jokes about your cellmate drooling on you. Can we like talk? Can we chat?” That never happened and I just felt bummed that Sophie didn’t get that chance, I think.

Drew: We’ll get into this later, but I think what’s hard is that I think they’re out this episode. What I think the issue is, and a lot of throughout this season, is trying to have a lot of fun moments and a lot of dramatic moments. Sometimes they are canceling each other out instead of living side by side in the sense that this season when we’ve seen Sophie and Finley out together, them getting drunk together has been framed as fun—

Riese: Funsies.

Drew: … and has been the basis of their relationship, which doesn’t feel unrealistic, but it’s just then all of a sudden Sophie being like, “You scare…” We’ll, save that for later, but it just… I don’t know. So, we can move on to the next scene, which is another winner.

Riese: Oh, my God.

Analyssa: Also baffling to me.

Drew: Speaking of scenes that make us want to claw our eyes out…

Riese: Do you think people are even going to listen to this podcast episode?

Drew: I don’t know. I think they watch the same episode, but people are maybe more of apologists than we are sometimes. I don’t know.

Analyssa: I honestly could talk about that first scene for half an hour.

Drew: I know.

Riese: Me too.

Analyssa: And let me tell you it returns. That scene comes back, so we can talk more later. Bette and Dani are at the CAC and first Bette says, “She doesn’t give about Gigi,” and I was like, “As we’ve all been saying.” Because she has seen that Dani has bought a wing of the CAC. I’m going to say front I’m famously stupid. I don’t really think I followed all the mechanics of what was at stake in this situation.

Riese: Good news. I re-watched all the relevant parts this morning.

Analyssa: Great. But I do understand that Bette is upset about this because Dani’s family money is basically dirty money. Right?

Riese: So her father’s company, they have investments. They have a portfolio of investments and one of their investments makes opioids.

Analyssa: Sorry. What I meant when I said dirty money, I don’t mean crime money. I mean it comes from immoral businesses.

Riese: Yeah. Some of it comes from… yeah … as opposed to every other company, which I think as we all know in this capitalist society, most companies…

Analyssa: Famously good.

Riese: Famously good, famously great portfolios.

Drew: I think what mainly confused me was just what have been the conversations between Bette and Dani about her relationship to her father, her involvement in this company. I think I’m more just was like, “Wait, well what’s their relationship?” Like if they’re close, have they covered this before? Wouldn’t Bette be more aware of Dani’s relationship with her father and her involvement in the company and be okay with that; and/or wouldn’t Dani be more like, “Oh, I know that this is a thing that Bette would not like.” Or, “This is something that I should maybe talk to Bette about it ahead of time to be like, ‘Hey, I want to use this money in this good way. Is this actually a good thing?” But she didn’t do that. She just was like, “Surprise! My last name is on.” They wanted to turn into this thing where it’s like, “That’s your father’s last name,” and it’s like, “It’s my last name too.” And it’s like, “But that’s not… But why didn’t you say anything?”

Riese: Also, it’s very common last name.

Drew: It’s a very common last name. I very much understand where Bette’s coming from. I also am just very confused how we got to this conflict. It feels so manufactured and so just like…

Riese: Right. The rules of surprises, I would say one of the main ones is if you’ve ever had a conflict about the thing you’re surprising someone with, you have to check in with them first. It is bananas that Dani did not check in with Bette about this. But it was also difficult for me because Bette this whole season’s been trying to get people to sign into her gallery owned by this racist, rich guy. And it’s like, “We’re all making compromises.” You know?

Drew: Yeah, excellent point.

Riese: And Dani’s trying to turn… I don’t know. Can Dani turn around? Can Dani move their money around? What’s happening? I don’t even really understand what their stake is in this, what their complicity is like if they actually are a company that was aware of all the things that the Sacklers were aware of and just kept pouring money in? You know what I mean? I have no idea. None.

Analyssa: I do understand, like you said Drew, where Bette is coming from and I wish that… I guess I don’t wish because I think it’s apparent, but that it also has so much to do with Kit. Like you can tell that that is the driving thing, which later comes up with Pippa I think although, again, very obliquely. I don’t know. Anyway.

Drew: It’s just not clear from either a detail standpoint or Dani and Bette’s relationship standpoint. It’s all just so muddled in a way and it’s so serious. This topic is so heavy and serious and also is about Kit, which is… It’s emotionally heavy and serious. It’s politically heavy and serious and they take the same care with it as they do a soapy cheating storyline that also doesn’t make any sense, but it’s like this isn’t fun. If it’s like a soapy cheating story line and it doesn’t really make any sense, I’m like, “I’m on board. Let’s watch hot people have sex.” But-

Riese: Don’t do issues. Stop it. If anyone’s listening, we don’t want you to do political issues.

Drew: You’re not good at it.

Riese: So just stop it. That’s my opinion.

Drew: I think this specific show has shown themselves to not particularly to be good when trying to get serious and get political. And then going into Dani, going to Gigi and being like…

Dani: Fuck Bette Porter.

Drew: … and them having sex and it’s like, “I’m not enjoying this. These very hot people are having a very good sex scene and I am not enjoying this because-”

Riese: You weren’t enjoying the sex scene? That’s bad. Wow!

Drew: I know and I was so excited to watch these two people have sex, and I was like, “I’m not going to-”

Riese: You were still like, “Wait, what?”

Drew: I was like, “No, I’m not excited to watch.” The passion of this scene is being motivated by Dani being like, “I want to defend my evil father against black artists.” I’m like, “I’m not going to be able to enjoy that sex scene.” And so I’m like, this is the thing where they’re undercutting what they do well by doing these other things poorly and I just… Also, why did her name have to be on the wing? Couldn’t they just…? I don’t know.

Analyssa: Because it’s a rehabilitation for her right dad’s name, which is… The other thing I think that actually might be interesting, but is totally lost, is how Dani, even in thinking that she’s doing good, is really still just doing PR for her dad’s company by this thing. And later we’ll talk about, she says like, “Well, we’ll just double the end dominant and they won’t be able to say no,” and I was like, “That’s also kind of stressful.” It doesn’t feel good either. There’s just… I’m not coming to The L Word for this type of plot line and I wish that it worked so integral to characters that I wish I were getting to know personally and not to their… I don’t know. I hate to be, “TV shouldn’t care about social issues,” because-

Riese: This TV show shouldn’t.

Analyssa: But this TV show maybe shouldn’t. And moreso I think maybe we should be thinking about how much we care about social issues when we write characters, so then we don’t do needlessly shitty and harmful things to our characters. But I don’t think we need our characters to be talking about social issues and how good they’re doing or how bad they’re doing at those.

Drew: Unless-

Riese: Yeah, exactly.

Drew: Unless you do it and you actually are thinking about it all the time. I think what bothers me about this show is that they’re like, “Oh, we’re going to have this conversation happen,” and you’re like, “Okay, but do you see how having this then impacts these other things?” and they don’t seem to…? I don’t know. It’s frustrating when it’s a thing where you’re like, “Oh, do they realize that this cute moment between Sophie and Finley is very negatively affecting Dani in this way that sort of ruins this moment.” That’s like, “Whatever.” I can get over that. When it’s like, “Oh, it’s that sort of problem of not thinking how things affect other things,” and it then turns Dani into like this really terrible person, it’s just… That can be her journey. Right? She can be imperfect, but the journey of the episode was not that she goes to Bette and goes like, “I realized that I was trying to do good, but I still was doing what my dad wanted me to do.” It’s her going to Gigi and being like, “Thanks for giving me the courage.” And so it’s like it could have been a really interesting thing where Dani’s like, “But I did good,” and then Bette’s like, “No, you didn’t.” That could have been a very interesting storyline, but they don’t want that because they want Dani and Gigi to be together; they want Ben and Pippa to be together. And so then, they’re not actually thinking about what they’re doing politically. They’re just saying politics.

Riese: Right, yeah. They’re just saying words.

Analyssa: One thing about the sex scene though that I did enjoy-

Drew: Yeah. We could talk about that. I don’t need… Yeah.

Analyssa: So Sepideh Moafi deserves an Emmy for her tongue work.

Riese: Yes, she does.

Analyssa: Her tongue is acting. Her tongue has more compelling storylines this season than many of the core characters, I will argue.

Riese: Absolutely.

Analyssa: I also — Justice for Gigi oen more time. I’m making a T-shirt that says it — because everyone uses having sex with Gigi as like-

Riese: I KNOW!

Analyssa: … as a release valve for all their other emotions, which is like…

Riese: Also like, is she free? They just come on… I mean that’s TV. That’s TV. That’s fine, but-

Analyssa: But it’s always… Gigi is always just-

Riese: A reaction.

Analyssa: … sitting on a sofa waiting for Bette or Dani, or Nat and Alice, or Nat to storm through the door ready to have sex because something else is going on. And I just want to say that’s not a nice way to treat people.

Drew: No, it isn’t. Now that I’ve watch this episode, we’re going to discuss it. I think I’m going to re-watch the sex scene later because these two actors didn’t do anything wrong. So, I’m just going to watch-

Riese: That’s art. That’s the kind of art that I want to see at the California Art Center sponsored by some…

Analyssa: Evil Corp Los Angeles.

Riese: The Peabodys.

Analyssa: When Bette said…

Bette Porter: It’s not over. I can call Peggy.

Analyssa: I was like, “Will you?”

Drew: I was like, “Wait, this could take a good turn?”

Riese: “Could you? Could you? Could you?

Analyssa: Is it going to happen?

Riese: “Could you, please?” But also, I can’t believe that this… It’s so… Sorry. It’s just dumb that it has gotten this far where their name is literally already up.

Drew: Yeah. What? How do things get [inaudible 00:17:30]? How does it get so good?

Riese: And why is it right at the front of the fucking museum?

Analyssa: It’s on the front door of the CAC, an institution that has been around for decades. There’s no way. And secondly, it happens so quickly.

Riese: I learned something from that carpenter, which is the triangle: time, money… You know?

Drew: Yeah.

Analyssa: Uh-huh (affirmative).

Riese: And what hap…?

Analyssa: Yeah. What did we sacrifice?

Riese: Exactly.

Analyssa: Well, we did sacrifice money because Dani has enough of it, I’ve learned.

Drew: It’s going to rub right off. Just going to be like when you get into a little car accident and you’re like, “Oh no, is this going to…?” And you rub it off and you go, “Oh, thank God.” That’s her last name. It could rub right out.

Analyssa: When Bette got mad, I wished Dani had been like, “Okay, hold on,” and just held out a little bit of Windex and scrubbed it—

Riese: “No-one will know!”

Analyssa: And we could have moved on from this storyline, but-

Riese: They should have just called it The Dani Wing.

Drew: Yeah. Well again, you’re right, Ana, that it is like they’re trying to… That’s the whole thing is that they want to rehabilitate the image and blah, blah, blah.

Analyssa: And Dani, I think, she’s doing it for good reasons, but the tangible reality of it is that she’s not — okay, we have to-

Drew: Wait. No, wait. Sorry. I have one more thing, which is that given the way that Dani thinks about Bette Porter, I do not believe that when Bette got mad at her that she wouldn’t immediately have stuck her tail between her legs and been like, “Oh my God, I’m so sorry. I was trying to…” You know what I mean?

Riese: That’s what I thought was going to happen.

Drew: I’m so confused by her reaction being like, “Fuck Bette Porter.”

Analyssa: Also, Bette is pretty firmly in the right, so to have Dani storm off and be like, “Fuck her,” is like…

Drew: What does the show want us to think?

Analyssa: Well, we’re still in this plot line for a while.

Riese: Yeah, we are.

Drew: Yeah, right. Because Bette goes to talk to… Yeah.

Analyssa: Bette is in her office talking to Pippa. And in another example of people-

Riese: Baffling.

Analyssa: … saying that they are doing the thing for the right reason, but ultimately harming people in the process, Bette is using Pippa’s work in the show as a bargaining chip with CAC to turn down the Núñez endowment. If you note that I’m talking slow because, again, famously stupid. Actually, I don’t think that’s true. I think that I would understand this if it were more sensical.

Riese: And Pippa’s like, “Well, art museums need money from somewhere,” whatever, which is I think a solid point. But also, what…? I remember the original series and it’s hard to get funding at the CAC. You know what I mean?

Analyssa: I’ve heard that. Yeah.

Riese: So it doesn’t seem like this is a very smart move for Bette at all.

Drew: No.

Riese: I don’t think this is going to work and it’s so shitty. Pippa almost cried in her office about all of her work and how much it means to her. And Bette cried about how it means so much to her and then she fucking went to the board and was like, “I’m going to withdraw this artist.” That’s so selfish and dumb.

Analyssa: Yeah. And again, I really think that Dani and Bette parallels here are so present. Because what I believe is that Bette does really believe in the move that she has made as a chess move and in the same way that Dani thinks of the move that she has made for putting the name on the gallery of a good move, it will work. It will do the things she wants it to do. But it feels very in character for Bette to be a champion of the art and the causes that she’s a champion of. It feels out of character after this season with her journey with Pippa and what they’ve talked about together that she would even put this at risk, which is what Pippa’s saying. Like, “Why would you do that?”

Riese: Obviously, I think, it’s motivated out of her feelings about Kit and driven by that, which was a shitty decision that the show made to be begin with. And so, that’s why she’s so passionate about it, but I also think it’s complicated because she just spent so long trying to convince Pippa to make compromises to sign with her gallery and now she’s like…

Drew: These two characters have been on the opposite side of this conversation, and also… Okay, I have a few things. One is the two of them are dating now. And while you shouldn’t date people who you work with, one thing that does happen if you date people who you work with is things that would be work conversations, become personal life conversations as well. So she’s not just her artist that she’s representing, she’s also her girlfriend or maybe no labels yet, but something. And so, then the question becomes, in what context would they not have talked about it? So then the other thing that that brings me to…They not have talked about it. So then the other thing that brings me to is why would it not have been a situation of like, if they wanted this storyline of like, Dani wants this wing and it’s complicated because of like, I just am confused why Pippa wouldn’t have been on the side of like, I don’t want to work with this person. That’s exactly why I didn’t want to make these sacrifices. Like that would be more in line with the character of Pippa.

Riese: Right.

Drew: Who’s been introduced that, like, she didn’t want to work with Zacharian and now she wouldn’t want to work with Dani’s dad or like take or be like represent, whatever connected with Dani’s dad. Again, like it’s… There are these deeper issues that bother me. And then there’s just the character motivation stuff where I’m like, some of these things in other characters voices would actually make more sense and would work more. And I’m just confused why the… Okay and again, it feels like, oh, we needed Bette and Pippa to be in a fight. We needed that to be the… A conflict as well. And it’s like—

Riese: And I mean, I do think that they kind of redeem it, one of the only things that happens in this episode, that kind of makes sense, it does seem like that is a “she fucked up”. Like she did do something out of carelesssness—

Analyssa: Yes. And there’s like a-

Riese: An acknowledgement of it

Analyssa: Yes.

Drew: Yes.

Analyssa: … And talking, communicating about it.

Drew: Absolutely.

Analyssa: But before that, we do find out that… That Bette has lost Pippa of the show. She takes a call outside of her office. Like clearly this did not go well. And then we get Jennifer Beals yelling “fuck” in her office –

Riese: Right.

Analyssa: … which is always to me, very pleasing.

Bette: Fuck! Fuck!

Riese: I think we should have followed Pippa at that point, you know?

Analyssa: Yes.

Riese: Honestly that’s…

Anaylssa: Yes. I wish we had seen Pippa’s reaction-

Riese: Yes.

Analyssa: … And what was going on there. But again, a moment most pleasing to me is when Jennifer Beals is yelling curse words in this show.

Drew: I also did enjoy that she brought up Provocations. Love that. And I think with her relationship with Pippa, I think there’s like some really interesting things that the show could be exploring.

Ries: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Drew: And is maybe trying to explore and maybe will explore or is exploring. I just don’t trust them. I think that’s something that I’ve been thinking about a lot is just like, oh, there are like really interesting things that could be happening. And usually when I’m watching a TV show, if I’m like in the middle of the season, I will feel a level of, let’s see where this is going. Because I think that sometimes viewers get mad at characters or get mad at where storylines are going. And it’s like, no, no, no, this is… It’s serialized storytelling, we’re getting there, this character’s on a journey. This character’s getting to a certain place and they could land the plane.

Riese: Yes.

Drew: And maybe I will be like I… We said that last time then we talked about flight, then… Now we’re going to have to do it again. But… Or we don’t, I can… I can use a different metaphor.

Riese: They definitely… They turned the plane upside down time, but it didn’t land.

Drew: But-

Riese: It still hasn’t landed.

Drew: … Also, it’s just a question of like, I’m realizing that for myself after, two seasons into the show, I just don’t really trust them. So when something feels complicated or bad, I’m not like, “oh, well let’s see where this goes.”

Riese: Right.

Drew: I’m like, “why are they having that character do that? Why is this what the storyline is?”

Riese: Mm-hmm (affirmative) .

Drew: And I’d love to be proven wrong, but…

Analyssa: It’s not going to happen in this episode.

Drew: No it isn’t.

Analyssa: One other thing though about bringing up provocations that I just remembered is famously it was hard to get Provocations at CAC.

Riese: Mm-hmm (affirmative) .

Analyssa: She’s like “CAC my beloved CAC!”

Drew: Wasn’t she fired from CAC?

Riese: Yes.

Analyssa: Where Provocations was— like this is the gallery that shows Provocations, they will obviously—

Drew: Yes.

Riese: But like, that was because you shoved it down their throats! No one wanted it but you—

Drew: Yes.

Riese: …They wanted impressionists in winter!

Drew: Yes.

Analyssa: They really wanted Impressionists in Winter and like again, good on Bette for getting Provocations through and continuing to talk about it. Great career when… But I was like… But do you remember that it was really tough to get Provocations there? –

Riese: Yes..

Analyssa: … Like this might…This gambit of gambling this gambit of gambling.

Riese: Exactly.

Anaylssa: Pippa’s chances-.. on the endowment. Okay.

Drew: Okay.

Analyssa: Let’s get into the last storyline that is… [crosstalk 00:26:03].

Drew: Moving on to the storyline, that there was a period of time where I was watching this episode and I went, “this episode is frustrating to me, but this is one of two storylines I’m really liking!” And then they ruined it. Anyways, not that yet. So it’s Isis King who I love, who’s such a talented actor and… Well first… Okay. So Micah basically burst in this persons office and is mad because a doctor at the center recommended that one of Micah’s clients go on puberty blockers, and Micah is mad because Micah is… His parents, aren’t going to sign off on this and you’re giving him false hope and he’s like very mad. And he just starts like bursts into the office.

Analyssa: Comes in very hot.

Drew: But the doctor is played by Isis King who is just phenomenal, was so good in When They See Us and is just-

Analyssa: Yes.

Drew: … A great actor.

Riese: She was the first trans model in America’s Next Top Model.

Analyssa: I didn’t know that. In my head cannon they cast her and then Micah and Isis got in the room together and they were fun and had… And they were like, oh, let’s do something with this, instead of just a fight about a client, which I think is probably what it all started as—

Drew: Well… Cause she like says…

Claudia: With as much professionalism as I can muster, which is considerably more than you manage to gather before baring into my office. I want to remind you that I am a doctor with a medical degree. I always have my patients best interest at heart.
Micah: I don’t disagree with you.
Claudia: I honestly wouldn’t care if you did.

Drew: I immediately loved her and was like, I want to watch a show all about you. But so that’s where that scene ends. Well we’ll return to that. But for now we’re going to Alice’s book launch.

Riese: Alrighty. Alice’s book is coming out in an underground bunker and everybody’s there in a land with no time. It is only Alice’s book. And we learned the following: nobody at the CAC will talk to Bette. Surprise, no one at the CAC wanted to talk to Bette when she worked there! Tess and Shane they’re dating, but Tess in Vegas.

Drew: And Alice says that Shane loves Tess-

Riese: Yes.

Drew: … From the moment she met her, which is a little bit of rewriting history, but I love it. I’m on board. That’s Shane… Shane and Tess, I love this.

Riese: Yes. That she apparently has loved Tess from the moment she saw her, which okay.

Analyssa: Alice hasn’t talked to Tom about Nat, she doesn’t want to…

Riese: What? Sorry I need to start complaining about this already. Why would you do it right now? It’s your fucking book launch party! It makes no sense. Makes no sense.

Analyssa: Makes no sense.

Riese: When she’s like, “should I tell him” — the obvious answer is, “yeah, LATER!”

Analyssa: Yes. When he has a hotel room to go have a conversation in… you could have just been like, yes, I will stay the night after this party, but we do have something to talk about. Nope. Okay. I do relate to Alice in many ways, as I’ve said, I think on the very podcast, but I do relate to being like, “‘I have something big to talk about” and it has to happen before a certain time. And so then you put it off and put it off and put it off. And you have about 30 seconds to say it—

Riese: That’s when I just don’t say it.

Analyssa: … I used to have conversations like this with my parents when we were in the car driving somewhere because they were trapped. But then I would only do it when we were about to pull up to the next thing. Like that’s what Alice feels like she’s doing. But it is nonsensical. I have mostly grown out of it cause I’m grown up now.

Riese: Finley and Sophie and show up, Finley and Tom have an incredible-

Analyssa: When did they come up with it?

Riese: … handshake. Well, probably in a scene that we didn’t see.

Analyssa: I love that for them.

Drew: Mm-hmm (affirmative) .

Riese: Yes. I love this for them

Analyssa: I thought you would like him because I remembered you saying you wanted them to spend time together.

Riese: Yes. And Finley is making jokes about jail.

Drew: Yeah. So Finley says, “I’ve met a lot of people in my life, but jail people are way different.” and is also like “bad night great story!” I hate it. I hate it so much. I just… I just like… What??!! I’m aware that the writers of The L Word have different politics than I do. I just am confused how some of these things… It just feel it’s just so callous and so… I don’t know, just like jokes that feel they’d be made 10 years ago and they wouldn’t have been good 10 years ago either. But I just thought that culturally we moved forward in our understanding of jails and prisons. And it’s not that Finley necessarily… I guess it makes sense for Finley but I also am like, “okay, I don’t like you.”

Analyssa: But a joke that would also make sense for Finley that reminds everyone that she was in jail is if she was talking about pooping into a metal can… Like that is also really on brand for her and doesn’t involve any of the other people that she was in jail with, any of the other people who might be going through something in their life who are imprisoned in an unjust system. We don’t need to get super deep into it, but I just… There are different ways to write that, to make it the same kind of thing, which is actually, like as a person of drinking experience — or as a person of now sober experience, I should say, the jokes about a really bad night actually feel very realistic to me.

Riese: Yes. For sure.

Analyssa: Sort of like Tess being like, she hasn’t broken a bone or broken a dish.

Riese: Yes.

Analyssa: Like, ha ha, that kind of thing is like when you’re in… At least in my experience, I should say, in like active alcoholism — there is a desire to do that because it’s like “I have everything under control, that’s just a silly, goofy thing that happened. Ha ha!”

Drew: Mm-hmm (affirmative) .

Rise: Yes.

Analyssa: And so that all felt really real but then the other stuff felt really like mean at the expense of other people-

Drew: Mm-hmm (affirmative) .

Analyssa: … who don’t have anything to do with this and just happened to be in the jail the same night as Finley. And it just felt unnecessary. Again because it could be like, “I puked my guts out on the floor of a cell, isn’t that embarrassing? Or like, “I had to sleep in my clothes on a metal bench, that sucks.” You know, but there are just so many other on brand jokes.

Drew: Yes.

Riese: Yes.

Analyssa: Which Drew like… like you said… Sometimes they put stuff right next to each other where I’m like, that actually is really enlightening about Finley’s character that she would say, ha ha a Dewey or “horrible night great story. Am I right?” That stuff, I was like great character building. And then she’s like, but jail people, blah, blah, blah.

Drew: And the L Word audience is going to like Finley. Like obviously some people don’t like Finley, but for the most part, your average L Word viewer, Finley is made in a laboratory for the lesbian community at large to love her. That is the person who just has the easiest time skating through. I mean there are things we know about Finley and Finley’s life. And obviously Finley has issues and has trauma, et cetera, et cetera, but like—

Analyssa: But people hold Finley, the way that Dani said last episode.

Drew: …Yes. So when Finley makes a joke, I think there are a lot of people out there who are on board and it doesn’t mean that she can’t be flawed, but again, you just illustrated how that could be done not at other people’s expense. Okay.

Riese: Then we go back to Gigi’s and Dani has a phone call because now everyone’s in crisis because of…

Analyssa: Because Bette didn’t like the surprise.

Riesee: Because Bette hated her surprise and Gigi is-

Analyssa: Which again, bad surprise. It’s Dani’s fault that Bette didn’t like the surprise!

Riese: … Yes. And Gigi is like, it’s not working for me—

Analyssa: Okay.

Riese: But like, Dani has to go to work!

Analyssa: I understand the thing that’s happening here. And they talk about it later and good. They’re all communicating — and again, as a person, I’m going to keep saying this-

Riese: As a person of human experience.

Analyssa: … A person of human experience, but also as a person of very demanding job experience sometimes, and this is a little bit of a character flaw as it is here in Dani too. I hate when people are like, “but what if you just set a boundary this time?”

Riese: Yes!

Drew: Right.

Analyssa: “But do you always jump for your boss?”

Riese: Yes.

Analyssa: Like? Yeah, I do! Because I work at my job and I know the level of demanding that my job and I’m really sorry that it’s impeding on what you think I should be doing.

Riese: Yes.

Analyssa: And I agree with Gigi later. Dani is not kind to Gigi-

Riese: Yes.

Analyssa: … And that is something to discuss. But what is not really something that’s fun to discuss, especially if you’re a person who, like Dani, and like me don’t tell anyone-

Riese: And like me.

Drew: Me too.

Analyssa: … doesn’t always love how demanding your job is? Nobody’s like, “Yeah, fuck yeah! I lose days of my life to this. I can’t have a real life.”

Riese: “If this phone call had come in the middle of sex, I still would’ve had to answer it. Yes, this is my terrible life.”

Analyssa: Dani has thought about this, and Dani is a grown up and has come to the conclusion —
“if this phone call came during sex, I would have to take it and I’m sorry, but that’s just the matter of it.” And when people do that—

Riese: It’s the middle of the day, also.

Drew: Yes.

Analyssa: … When people do that little cloying-

Riese: I hate it.

Analyssa: … And like touchy of like, what if you just like, oh, but isn’t it like. No, I have to work. I’m sorry. I also don’t love it.

Drew: What this episode eventually wants us to get is that in this moment, Gigi is suggesting boundaries with Dani’s father in a way that’s really positive. What this scene communicates is that Gigi is not respectful to Dani’s work and her desire to work. And she’s always… That’s a big part of her personality is that she like is that work is important to her regardless of what her work is. So this scene does not accomplish what it’s supposed to be accomplishing in the arc of this episode.

Analyssa: Right.

Drew: And it ultimately, yes. I’m like, oh God-

Analyssa: It’s always just like…

Drew: … The first time that I haven’t wanted to date Gigi.

Analyssa: I was just like, “yes babe, I would ignore this call from my boss if I could. That’s just simply right-”

Riese: That’s the thing, people will be like, “the internet can wait” And I’m like, actually it really can’t. Unfortunately it moves pretty fast!

Drew: And she just could have instead, had framed it, not from a place of “you shouldn’t work,” but from a place of “your dad is doing the thing that you’ve told me your dad does.”

Riese: But now it’s not the time for her to do that.

Drew: No. But I’m just saying that would’ve accomplished more of what going for then her just being like, what if you just didn’t work right now?

Analyssa: Right.

Drew: It’s like, what? No. Okay. So going back to Micah. Micah runs after Claudia to apologize to her and…

Riese: Ends up aking her on a date?

Drew: Yes. So…

Analyssa: He’s jawline asks her out on a date. I’m sorry. Let’s just take one second. There’s a lot of stuff going on in this episode. And I think we should acknowledge the little treats for us, the viewers that exist. And one of them is Micah’s jawline in this scene.

Drew: Yes. So he’s… He basically is like, look…

Micah: I need to apologize for lashing out at you.
Claudia: Yes. You really came in hot.
Micah: I know, I know. It’s just, you know, with Joaquin…
Claudia: You care. Me too.
Micah: But also I was Joaquin. I had a one meeting, pediatrician, who said I could start blockers and a mom who disagreed. I fell into a really deep depression after that.
Claudia: It took me 30 years to screw up the courage and go to a doctor and ask for HRT. I wish more than anything, I could have started sooner.

Drew: Yes. I don’t know how old she’s supposed to be. I guess I was like, is she 30? Like did she transition at 30? How old is she?

Analyssa: It felt like “I wasted 30 years of my life total,” which is just…

Drew: But still I would like to say that maybe… I mean, as I’ve said, I love Isis King. I’m so glad she’s in this. But also, it reminds me a little bit, of unposed whenever they’re talking about how like clocky MJ is. And I’m like, okay, that’s a bit of a stretch. What if any show ever cast someone who was trans and looked like a little bit gender nonconforming? What would happen? But yes… So I don’t know when she was supposed to have transitioned, but I don’t even know but I did enjoy the flirting. And so at this point in this moment, I was just really enjoying this. She asks if he can cook and then he’s like, yes, sort of. And she’s like, what’s your address? And then she’s like, “cute I’ll be over later.” I mean it’s crazy how quickly this happens with like a… They work together. Like it is a no. It’s a no, but it’s a kind of no that on The L Word I’m like, I can live with this no. This… These hot people are flirting. These hot trans people are flirting. I was like, I am so excited about this. Finally I was —

Riese: I’m so sorry.

Drew: … So excited.

Analyssa: Yes. As a person of dating in Los Angeles experience, I’m going to say — now I’ve done it so times that I have to make it a bit for this episode, I’m sorry —

Drew: Great. Keep going.

Analyssa: I’ve never in my experience scheduled a date day of…

Riese: I’ve never scheduled anything day of besides recording this podcast—

Anaylssa: —which happened today.

Drew: Well I’ve never scheduled a date. I guess I scheduled a hook-up.

Analyssa: I was going to say, I’ve definitely texted someone, been like, “what are you doing later tonight? Let’s roll around.” For sure. But like, we’re going to go on a first date and we talked today and now it’s tonight?

Drew: No, no.

Analyssa: It’s also friends time for us, for me to discuss—

Drew: The song?

Analyssa: … The music choices. In this here series. I don’t think one single song queue has made sense since Driver’s License.

Drew: Have you considered?

Riese: I know that’s what they peaked. And then from there it’s been-

Drew: Have you considered?

Riese: … An in house band?

Drew: It is. Yes. It’s like a Greek chorus of sorts.

Analyssa: It literally is.

Drew: And that it’s a choice. It’s an artistic choice.

Analyssa: Okay. That’s fine. I disagree with it.

Drew: I would like to say that. Yes, I do not like the artistic choice.

Analyssa: There were some really big ones in this episode. So Micah is going to go on a date with this hot doctor and the song says “you the man” over and over. There’s one later that also, I was just like…

Riese: Yes, there’s one during a sex scene that I was like, I can’t believe this is happening.

Drew: I keep searching the songs and a lot of them don’t come up on Shazam so…

Analyssa: I genuinely think we’re in a situation like we were in the original L Word

Riese: I think they have in house-

Analyssa: With who? Who was it?

Drew: Fucking, fucking…

Riese: EZ Girl.

Analyssa: EZ Girl. Yes.

Riese: Shane Shane Shane Shane

Analyssa: Carmen Carmen Carmen

Riese: Okay. So then we go to the legal department, I guess, which is in a stately building. Dad’s out of jail. Okay.

Drew: Mm-hmm (affirmative) .

Riese: He’s mad at Dani for trying to do something good. He’s trying to blame on her. And she’s like, no, this is on you. Which is true. He’s the one who… She has to clean up his, whatever. And Bette is described as…

Legal: Formidable at best and destructive at worst.

Analyssa: I do like that Bette has all these fancy lawyers scared. That’s fun. I don’t like that all these fancy lawyers are worried that the thing that happened to the Sacklers is going to happen to them. That’s how you know.

Drew: What this has done. I mean, this is the Bette that I love. This is Bette…. what it’s doing is making me not care about Dani anymore and not care about Dani and Gigi, but the idea of Bette being up against Dani’s dad and these like evil lawyer people I’m like, yes, let’s see that. I like want to see her destroy them. So …

Analyssa: Again, we jump through a time loop.

Riese: And we’re back at the book party.

Analyssa: Back at the launch party.

Riese: And Alice has decided to pick the worst moment of all time for some god damn reason. Because Tom gives her a book and she signs a copy of his book and she… And he gives her a key to his hotel room.

Drew: Mm-hmm (affirmative) .

Riese: Because he likes his beds king sized, like his candy bars. And then she’s like, oh, “I have to tell you that I hooked up with Nat.” But here’s the thing: like how — their relationship is serious enough that her hooking up with Nat would be a problem, but not serious enough that they literally haven’t spoken in over a week?

Drew: Yes. It doesn’t make any sense.

Riese: They established nothing.

Drew: If the… What has been established on screen makes it, so this is like… Tom sucks, this sucks. And it’s like, I don’t understand how…

Riese: I didn’t feel like he sucked. I just felt like this didn’t make sense. Like I was just confused.

Drew: No, because it’s like masculine bullshit of being like controlling before you have any right to even be controlling.

Riese: I didn’t see it like that at all.

Analyssa: I didn’t think that. I thought Alice-

Drew: Really?

Analyssa: … I thought Alice thought she did something wrong.

Riese: Yes. I thought so too.

Analyssa: Very much.

Drew: But she didn’t.

Riese: But she thinks she did.

Drew: Right. To us.

Analyssa: No, we’ve seen them have sex one time, but I just… in the world of the show she seems …

Drew: Okay. So I took the side of: Alice knows that this guy might have an issue and he does have an issue. And so then she’s very apologetic, but that…

Analyssa: I thought that—

Riese: No.

Analyssa: … she was genuinely like, “I’ve done a bad thing.”

Drew: No. It reminded me of… There’s like a whole storyline in Ted Lasso where they just start hooking up and then the character hooks up with her ex and then the whole point of that episode is like, he has to get over his shit and realized that they had nothing established and like whatever… I was like… I was thinking about that and I was like, why does Ted Lasso have better gender politics than The L Word?

Analyssa: That might stand but I don’t think in this storyline, that’s what was happening. Like I think she felt…

Riese: Yes, she felt like she did something bad.

Analyssa: She did something wrong.

Drew: But she didn’t!

Riese: Right. But in the world of the show for… I mean, we don’t know why, but for some reason it is.

Analyssa: Like if I said to you, Drew, a girl I’ve been dating for two weeks, now I’ve hooked up with my ex, I feel really bad. You’d be like, “you didn’t do anything wrong-”

Drew: Right.

Analyssa: … But if that, if I feel like I did something bad and that girl feels like I did something bad, then something bad has happened.

Drew: You’re both wrong. I don’t agree.

Analyssa: Anyway, she does it right before he has to introduce her.

Drew: Yes.

Analyssa: And he’s like pretty upset. He is struggling to-

Riese: Yes.

Analyssa: … Adjust to his new reality.

Tom: I think we all know who Alice is or at least who she wants us to think she is. She’s honest. She’s caring. Wickedly funny. She’s caring, wickedly funny, but there’s another side to Alice. A side, that’s emotional and empathetic. I mean, she can’t watch an episode of Dr. Pimple Popper without crying and who can blame her?

Riese: I just thought this was stupid.

Drew: Yeah. So stupid

Riese: It didn’t make sense.

Analyssa: He gets really close to giving a not nice… Like every line they’re like, is he going to go off? And he doesn’t.

Riese: He doesn’t. I think he’s a standup guy.

Analyssa: I do too.

Drew: Yeah, I think so. It’s just very poorly written.

Riese: Yeah. And I really didn’t understand why they wrote it like that either. Like, why not have… It was sort of like the thing with like, make the Finley-Sophie thing a little bit more clear. It would have taken two lines!

Analyssa: Right.

Riese: To make it a genuine conflict. Or Alice to be like, yeah, we’ve been talking every night, but I’ve left this out of the story. Or like, we haven’t talked all week. So it shouldn’t be a big deal.

Analyssa: Or Alice saying to Tom, like I know we haven’t had this conversation, but I’ve been feeling really guilty. Can we discuss?

Riese: Yeah but instead she presents it like she cheated on him.

Analyssa: Yeah.

Riese: And then he rolls with it.

Analyssa: And he reacts in the way that she presents it, which I agree Drew, is out-sized but he reacts in the way that she presents it, which is again, not really how you would do that. You’d be like, it’s really early with this and I’m coming off this other thing. And she sort of says “it’s complicated,” but it falls sort of-

Drew: No, Alice definitely does not frame it correctly.

Analyssa: Right. But then she reads part of the Dana chapter. He gives her a brisk handshake.

Drew: The only thing is that like, in the middle of all this happening, like Finley gets cocktails for herself and Sophie.

Analyssa: Right. Oh, and Tess can’t come to the event because she’s in Vegas. That will be important later, I guess.

Drew: Yeah. So Alice reads from the Dana chapter.

Riese: After it, when they were like, “you painted Dana so perfectly!” — she didn’t say anything about Dana.

Drew: She didn’t say anything about Dana.

Analyssa: Not one thing about Dana’s personality in that reading!

Riese: She didn’t say anything about their story together. She went straight from engagement party, love confession, to deathbed. Literally to deathbed. I mean it’s a show but.

Drew: I did get emotional, but this is a terrible personal essay.

Riese: Yeah, I cried but I hated myself.

Analyssa: Against my will. Every tear I’ve shed in this show has been against my will.

Riese: Yeah.

Drew: “You really capture her spirit.”

Riese: No you didn’t! You said nothing about her! Besides that her favorite song was “You Are My Sunshine.” Cause also no, it wasn’t.

Analyssa: That’s not exactly true. But what this chapter serves to do, as many things in this show serve to do is get three people to realize they all need to go talk to the person they’re actually in love with. So Shane is like, I have to go talk to Tess don’t I? And everyone’s like, duh. And then Bette’s like, I have to go call Pippa for the 1000 time. And I was like, maybe don’t. And then Alice was like, I got to go find Tom.

Drew: Yes.

Riese: And in a confounding turn of events, Finley — who very recently brought two drinks for her and Sophie to drink that they sat next to each other, drinking — Sophie asks

Sophie: Are you drinking?

Riese: Yeah. Yeah. Like who wrote this? Like…. what?

Drew: Melody —

Analyssa: Yeah, it doesn’t… It confounds-

Riese: I was like, was that supposed to be water?

Analyssa: But also it’s just a thing of like, nobody’s actually talking about the thing that happened really. And again, Riese you’re right, that’s really hard. But like maybe they would have had a conversation in the car before they came of like, Hey, are you good? Maybe we should both not drink tonight. We had a rough time.

Riese: Yeah. Because it seems like Sophie’s decided not to drink for awhile. And it seems like Finley would really benefit from doing that as well.

Drew: Do you know what would’ve been so easy? Is that if Finley, I’d like to know, after Alice is done speaking, Finley says “that was sad.”

Riese: You know what else is sad?

Drew: Do you know what she could have said is “that was sad, I need a drink.” And then Sophie could have said, “Hey, what if we don’t drink tonight?” And then Finley could be like, no.

Analyssa: Or some conversation about that.

Riese: And then also that’s another way. Cause there’s obviously a distinction between Sophie’s drinking and Finley’s drinking. And like, Sophie’s like a binge drinker, which is its own thing. But I don’t know what to say. They’re not doing a good job. Like there’s ways that they could show it. And I think that kind of thing would be perfect. Like her being like, this is sad, I need a drink. That would be a good way to start a conversation. And also to find out how Sophie feels about her drinking. How Finley— like, Finley’s last relationship ended because of her drinking!

Analyssa: Right. And again, there’s stuff in here that I do think actually is realistic, but all of the entry points into the conversation are not. And so then the things they’re saying-

Riese: And it so easily could have been.

Analyssa: Yes, exactly. And so the things they’re saying don’t seem like they make sense. And honestly, if I were Finley, and Sophie said the things that Sophie says to me in this episode, I’d be like, what the fuck are you talking about dude? And vice versa. Like if I were Sophie and I was with someone like Finley, you’d be like, Hey, a lot of stuff is going on. Are we good? They both don’t talk in the way that you feel like a normal human person would talk. And again, that’s totally down to a script level and what the ideas are. It’s not about really even the characters anymore. It’s like, none of this makes sense to me, I feel lost.

Riese: Rosanny is trying her hardest to tell a story with just her face and no lines.

Analyssa: I was going to say, the eyeball acting? She’s crushing.

Drew: Yeah. I really like all the actors and I really like all the, I mean, this is how I felt about the original L Word where I’d be like, oh, I love these characters. And then sometimes people will be like, “yeah, but Alice did this thing that was really transphobic.” And I was like, oh, when I say I love these characters, I don’t take all of the episodes as canon. I love this character when I love them. But all of the characters on The L Word, in the original series, and now in this series, there’s constant stuff that’s just wildly out of character.

Riese: Yeah. Wait, how many lines do they even have with each other? Four?

Drew: It doesn’t make any sense. Okay. So Micah and Claudia are like, Micah is cooking dinner, and they’re flirting. And they bond over work stuff. We learned that Micah’s a Virgo, which is a fun little thing.

Analyssa: Surprising, but okay. We’ve learned It.

Drew: Yeah. And so then the fire alarm starts going off.

Riese: Why didn’t they just take it apart?!

Analyssa: Why didn’t they open the door or the window? There’s a massive door next to me.

Drew: Yes, it makes no sense. It makes zero sense. But one thing that I want to say is that I absolutely loved the tea for tea energy of the woman being the one who like, “I’m taller, I can reach it.” Like I loved that detail, but I was like open the door.

Analyssa: I thought that detail was fun. There’s a door right there.

Riese: I was like, as I did to my smoke alarm. Remove it from the wall.

Drew: That’s a felony, so.

Analyssa: It’s dangerous.

Riese: A felony?

Analyssa: You could burn to death!

Drew: I think it says on it it’s a felony. Or maybe it’s, I don’t know if it’s a felony, but I don’t know if you should say that publicly.

Analyssa: I don’t think it’s a felony. Isn’t smoking on an airplane a felony?

Drew: I don’t know. I don’t.

Analyssa: Okay.

Drew: So, but then they don’t kiss. That’s the part of this that I did not understand. I was like, kiss! Why aren’t you kissing yet? Your faces are so close to each other.

Analyssa: They did the Shane and Tess special, which is stand really close and breathe each other’s air, but not, kiss. Okay. So then back at the CAC, Bette is negotiating with the guy in charge. She’s come to be like, you guys called my bluff and I thought you were going to counter offer me.

Riese: And it does feel like maybe this is the culmination of a lot of the stuff that’s been happening with her this whole season. Where she’s like:

Bette: I made a mistake. That is something you will rarely hear me say, but Pippa Pascal. Her work means everything to me. Do you understand? Everything?
Speaker 2: What would you do if you were in my position?
Bette: I would throw me under the bus. I’m perfectly prepared to be publicly humiliated, but don’t punish her and don’t punish the people who need to see her work.

Analyssa: And Pippa is there.

Riese: Pippa is creeping.

Analyssa: And can hear her and hears Bette say like genuinely very nice and meaningful things about what she’ll do for Pippa. Like she says that Pippa’s work means everything and she’ll do anything if the CAC will forgive her for this.

Drew: Yeah. This definitely was the moment that was like, oh, okay. I think I see what they’re going for. And I’m excited hopefully for this to be where it’s going.

Analyssa: Right.

Drew: And again, my trust in writers isn’t super strong, but this scene was good.

Riese: Yeah. And this is also when she says she realizes that her legacy is one of revenge and stuff. That was good.

Drew: That was really good.

Riese: And then her and Pippa hugged and it’s nice. And she kind of like folds into Pippa, which is not her style. And I thought that was really nice too.

Analyssa: Yeah. It’s nice to see her finally get the opportunity to say that. And like that that’s what has been happening. To see that feels cathartic in a good way. And I like that it’s with Pippa. Again, we’ve talked about how Bette has not been able to date in a long-term way another Black woman. Or like the way she talks about what Pippa’s art means to her because she hasn’t done that in her own life. And that this might be like a good, solid step for both of them is very… I just thought it was really nice. But I do want to say all of their dialogue, very abstracted. I wish they were speaking in like real concrete details about feelings, but instead they’re sort of-

Riese: It’s very broad.

Analyssa: I mean, they’re artists, I guess. Speaking of reconciliations, you can tell that we didn’t adore this episode because that’s the first, speaking of, all episode.

Riese: Oh my God you’re right! Speaking of communication, two women are about to try it.

Analyssa: They’re going to try. Dani has come to Gigi’s with Chinese food to sort of make up for the morning. And they bond about their dads and how they got in the way of former relationships. And I had just one aside about this is “my dad always wanted what was best for me” is a weird way to say “Dani’s dad was really classist about Sophie.” Okay. But I did like the line, again as a person of demanding job experience, Dani’s line that was like, I was really embarrassed that you saw how he treats me, or something like that? Which is, I think often with my very long hours and stuff, I don’t mind doing the demanding work myself. I can keep it going. It’s when a loved one is like, wait, let’s go. And you have to see that I’m submissive to this thing. That is when it starts to become stressful. And that’s why then the reaction of but babe, what if you just put boundaries in place?, is more off putting to me. Cause it feels humiliating.

Drew: So we learned that Bette backed off, so Dani’s like I won. Which again, I thought the whole thing was that Dani had, her morals had changed and she’d left her dad behind. I’m just, I’m like what?

Riese: I mean, she’s has to run the company. Right?

Drew: I mean no. No, she actually doesn’t. Yes she is officially the CEO because she signed that document. No sense. But she does not have to run the company well. She does not have to do things that are morally objectionable.

Riese: You think Dani’s going to lead the class revolution?

Drew: No! But there’s a difference between leading the class revolution and being like, oh, I defeated Bette Porter and all these black artists.

Analyssa: Yeah. What I was going to say is that I didn’t love that it again, pinned in Bette as the adversary in this episode as though Bette’s point was not a good one.

Drew: I mean, who knows what the next episode will do and maybe Dani will like, they’ll have a… Cause she’s like, I’m going to give Bette a few days to cool off. And it’s like, I really hope that that is words coming out of Dani’s mouth. But the show knows that that’s not what’s going to happen. And in the future episode, actually what will happen is Dani realizes that she’s wrong.

Riese: They hint at it at the end. What’s going to happen. I think. Don’t they?

Drew: Yes they do. But I mean, they don’t hint at whether Dani is like… Is Dani going to be on team Bette and Pippa? Or with her dad? Okay. So, but then when Gigi was like, I sure do like you, I was like, oh my God, I love that so much. I wish that was in any other episode or any other, whatever. Speaking of, I’m just going to read my notes for the scene, but not the last one, because it’s actually a thing to get into. But my notes in the beginning are Micah and Claudia! Ugh, dude. No. Ugh. Why?! And so basically what happens is Micah and Claudia kiss and then Micah’s like, Oh my God, I can’t do this because I’m in love with someone else.

Riese: What is wrong with you?

Analyssa: Why would you say it to someone?

Riese: Did he have carbon monoxide poisoning? Why is he saying this?

Drew: Like, I didn’t, I just, yeah.

Analyssa: All the steak fumes have gone to his head.

Riese: Someone who he works with-

Analyssa: Who he has to see so soon.

Drew: I don’t even.

Riese: Tomorrow morning he has to see her.

Drew: Okay, this is the thing that really bothers me. So Micah wasn’t in the last episode and this could have been a two episode storyline. Actually this could have been a several episode storyline because if you needed drama at the night where like the drama was that Maribel was like, you’re talking to someone. If instead it was that Micah… There’s just could have been a whole-

Riese: He could’ve been talking to her.

Drew: Yeah! It could have been a whole three episode arc with Isis King and this lovely flirtation these two have. They could have had sex. And I just think it all could have been… Instead because they want Micah on the poster and want to be able to say that one of their leads is a trans guy, but they don’t actually want to put them in every episode. We get this very rushed, very confusing, I don’t know. They had so much chemistry. Why would this not go on for several episodes? And like we know where I stand as far as the Micah shipping goes. We know where I stand. But, why couldn’t this fling or whatever have been something that was actually substantial. And actually given these two actors more time to do this.

Riese: And Micah’s kind.

Analyssa: And like fine instead of… So many times on this podcast I’ve been like, this feels mean. It feels unnecessary to kiss someone and then to their face be like, I can’t kiss you because I have feelings for someone else. Like it’s just not.

Riese: Yeah. And I think what’s interesting also is, I noticed this a lot in when I’m writing and talking about TV and stuff, when we’re shifting from talking about, why would the character do this to, why did the writers do this? Which I feel like happens on the show. Cause it’s not like I’m like, why would Micah do this? Cause he wouldn’t.

Drew: Right, exactly.

Riese: So I’m just like, why was it written this way?

Drew: I feel about so many of the things in this episode.

Analyssa: So many storylines.

Riese: Right. And honestly this show, for all of its faults, has inspired that in me so much less than the original series. But this episode is just such a disaster and it has such good sex scenes in it.

Analyssa: It really has good sex scenes in it.

Riese: Like what the fuck!

Drew: So then we go back to Alice and Tom’s storyline, which is another one where I’m like, I think Tom’s a great guy. I’ve loved his character. None of this has felt realistic to his character because I feel like what would have been more accurate is he would have been like, okay, so you want to be with that? And Alice would have to be like, no, I really do want to be with you. And prove that instead of him getting upset and we’re like, oh no, is he going to say something bad in the speech? No, of course he wasn’t ever going to say anything. It’s not his character. Anyways. Alice walks in on him as he’s taking tiny shampoos and toiletries and stuff from a hotel, which is the move always.

Analyssa: One quick reminder that Tom is not a rich LA lesbian. Someone in the comments, I think of the last post or maybe your recap, were like, I wish that there was episodes where Carrie and Tom got to bond about not being LA. Like being the weirdos on the outside of this group. And I just feel like that would be very fun for both of them.

Riese: I agree. I think that’d be really nice. You need to have a buddy when you’re the outsider. You need to have a buddy.

Analyssa: Yeah, Tom is close to having Finley as a buddy. But now they’ve spun Finley off in a whole different direction.

Drew: So Alice apologizes and they work it out and it’s nice. I’m glad they’re back together because that’s what I wanted.

Riese: And now they’re official.

Drew: Yeah.

Riese: Speaking of people who are going to become official.

Analyssa: I mean the next handful of scenes is really just people getting official back-to-back-to-back.

Drew: So Maribel comes over and Micah’s like:

Micah: I’ve watched Love & Basketball six times since I last saw you. And I think we’re as good as them.
Maribel: No, we’re not. Nobody is.

Drew: And then-

Analyssa: This was wild.

Drew: He takes-

Riese: Are these quotes from Love & Basketball?

Drew: Okay. Eventually. But first he says:

Micah: Maribel, I love you. And I know you love me too.
Maribel: Would you bet on it?
Micah: I would bet my whole heart.

Analyssa: Wild.

Riese: I thought That was a quote from Love & Basketball.

Drew: I’m sure in Love & Basketball. They say, I love you. The part that is a quote is that when… There’s a scene in Love & Basketball, if you haven’t seen Love & Basketball you really should see Love & Basketball, they’re playing one-on-one and it’s like a bet for her heart.

Speaker 1: I’ll play you.
Speaker 2: What?
Speaker 1: One game, one-on-one.
Speaker 2: For what?
Speaker 1: Your heart.

Drew: That is a reference. But, the I love you? It’s just him saying, I love you. He’s like, I love you, I know you love me too? Okay.

Riese: That wasn’t a quote?

Drew: No.

Analyssa: That is Micah.

Riese: That’s bananas!

Drew: I don’t think it’s a quote. But it’d be bananas even if it was a quote! I really don’t think it’s a quote.

Riese: I feel like, what?! But you’re right, even if it is a quote, it’s still wild. It’s a pretty common phrase. I love you. How forward. Like Micah-

Analyssa: My notes say, I love you? Skipped some steps there, my guy.

Riese: My notes say, they love each other?

Analyssa: As a person of watching Grey’s Anatomy experienced, those bitches say, I’m in love with you because I love you because I’m in love with you, to people they’ve never even gone on a date with.

Riese: This show does that too.

Analyssa: They do that shit all the time. So I felt like I was primed for that. And I was just like, this is bananas.

Drew: I do it in the privacy of my own brain. But let’s keep it where it belongs.

Riese: Why do they have to always be doing like, are you in love with her? Like Tasha and Alice and Jamie when they were having their talk in the final episode. And she was like, are you in love with Tasha? Or like, are you in love with Jamie? And I was like, how could they be?

Analyssa: I mean, even-

Riese: They’re not dating yet!

Analyssa: Even Shane and Tess. This episode, Alice is like, Shane has loved Tess since the moment she laid eyes on her.

Riese: Yeah I was like, what?

Analyssa: Has she?

Drew: My issue is not that it’s about saying I love you too soon. My issue is that they hooked up. They were friends, they hooked up, then they got into a fight. They didn’t talk. I missed the week where they were not speaking. Then they got into a fight and they haven’t talked for another week or some period of time. So that’s more like where I’m confused. If it was, oh, they spent, whatever it was. It doesn’t matter. Whatever. I’m happy they’re together and that’s lovely. And now they’re together and whatever. Okay. So then going to people who are in love Tess is on the phone in Vegas.

Riese: She’s on the phone with her sponsor. And just really quickly, I want to say, that for all the not great alcoholic representation in this show. This reluctant-ass call to her sponsor? I was like, yes, thank you so much. She’s like kind of perfunctorily like, yes, I’m doing this. Yes, I went to a meeting. And then I called my sponsees. I was like, I know that phone call, I’ve been on that phone call, I will be on that phone call probably this week. Like baby. Thank you. That was great.

Analyssa: Yeah. Another great thing I think was we really saw Vegas.

Drew: We sure did through that window. We were like, we are in Vegas.

Riese: It’s Vegas.

Analyssa: And you know what? When they start smooching, there’s words about lights in the song, which are behind them in Vegas.

Drew: Shane arrives. Also, I want to note for people who are like, oh, Tess’ mom lives in Vegas? Because I think a lot of people are always like, oh wow, when they live in Vegas, they live on the strip. Most of the time, that is not true. Plenty of people live in Vegas and don’t live on the strip. But I guess Tess’ mom does live on the strip.

Riese: No Tess’ mom is in a home. So she was just saying in a hotel.

Drew: Why would she say on the strip?

Riese: Because it’s cheap.

Drew: So, Shane arrives at the hotel and she tells Tess that she wants to be her partner.

Riese: And she’s like, I want to be here with you. She’s like looking at her feet. I want to be your partner.

Analyssa: And that’s really scary for me to say.

Riese: She hates having feelings.

Drew: That’s really nice. What we’ve learned from this episode of television is that trans women can find love as long as you’re stealth. And that’s really nice. I mean, I do appreciate that we got two T4T storylines here with Micah and Claudia.

Analyssa: Yeah.

Drew: And now Tess and trans woman Shane.

Analyssa: Yeah. They have sex.

Drew: They do.

Riese: They do.

Drew: It’s extremely hot.

Analyssa: Yeah.

Drew: This is an untainted sex scene. This is really the only one. What other sex scenes happened in this episode?

Riese: Aren’t Pippa and Bette? They wake up together with their bras on.

Drew: That’s not a sex scene.

Riese: We will get to that.

Drew: We’ll get there.

Riese: Everyone takes their clothes off here.

Drew: Anyways, this is very good. Like when Shane was kissing down her back. I really thought that she was about to eat her ass! And then I was disappointed it stopped. I was lie, go for it Shane! Nope? Okay.

Riese: Yeah I did too. But wasn’t,

Analyssa: I watched twice and missed the turnaround to get Tess onto all fours. And I was like, what have I? And I, I still don’t know where I missed it, but anyway, I also thought we were going to get ass eating representation.

Drew: It was good.

Riese: Wasn’t Sophie eating Finley’s ass at the beginning of last week’s? In the rug?

Analyssa: Oh, I know we you’re talking about.

Riese: She could have been fucking her from behind though.

Anaylssa: Yeah.

Drew: Unclear,

Analyssa: Unclear.

Riese: Or sucking on her toes. There’s so many things she could have been. That was like the thing they’re really into. You know, Nat loves public sex, but Finley and Sophie are really into feet.

Drew: I want everyone’s sun sign then I want everyone’s kinks. Please.

Riese: Yeah.

Drew: Okay.

Analyssa: So the only other thing I want to say about the sex scene is it was very good. I wish that I’d seen their faces being excited more.

Riese: Mm-hmm yeah.

Analyssa: Like it seemed like a really fun pay off to some things.

Drew: That’s true.

Analyssa: And I just would’ve loved to see Jamie play it at being a little light the way that she is.

Riese: I would’ve liked that too, because what I try to make a screenshot for my recap. It’s incredibly difficult.

Analyssa: You’re just getting hair and limbs basically.

Riese: For a lot of the sex, it’s nearly impossible. Cause either they’re in motion.

Drew: Right.

Riese: Or you can’t see a face.

Drew: Right.

Riese: And so then I’m taking a screenshot of bodies. Then I feel like I’m disembodying women. You know?

Analyssa: And that’s what makes Sophie and Finley’s sex scenes so fun. It’s because they’re having fun and they feel, realistic in the way that sometimes sex is very hot, but also sometimes you bump heads and you laugh about it.

Drew: Yeah. Yes.

Analyssa: And then it’s back to being really hot. Yes. And then,

Drew: Yes.

Analyssa: And I feel like I missed some of that in these.

Drew: That’s true.

Analyssa: In the sex scenes, this episode.

Riese: Shane always has serious sex. I feel.

Drew: Yeah.

Analyssa: That’s true.

Drew: Yeah.

Analyssa: She takes it very seriously. That’s why she does it so frequently.

Riese: Okay, Finley comes home wasted.

Analyssa: And crawls into bed with Sophie and tries to do a drunk cuddling thing. And Sophie doesn’t want to do it.

Riese: She says that she feels like she’s been babysitting her all day.

Analyssa: Yeah.

Riese: There is a line here where she’s talking about when Finley is like completely trashed and she’s like,

Sophie: It’s like your light goes out and nobody’s home and it’s the scariest, loneliest feeling.

Riese: And I was like, that’s good. That’s a good line.

Drew: Yeah.

Analyssa: I agree that’s a good line. This felt like it came out of nowhere. I think, I think you said something earlier that I thought was I would bring up later. But which I’m bringing up now. It does feel like it’s a crystallization of some thoughts that maybe Sophie has had before.

Riese: Yeah.

Analyssa: But it feels really like zero to a hundred in the intensity of it. Which I was surprised by. Because I, again, I think Drew said this a lot of their relationship has been fun partying. We, that’s our vibe.

Riese: They were both were drinking a lot.

Drew: Which like, because Sophie’s gone through a lot recently.

Riese: Yeah.

Analyssa: For sure.

Drew: And so it could easily have been played in a way where it’s like. And by played, I mean written because Rosanny Zayas is doing whatever she can with this writing. It could have been written in a way that was clear about the fact that, yes, Sophie and Finley’s relationship has been largely based ongoing out and being drunk. This experience was a wakeup call for Sophie. And she’s confused by it. But not a wakeup call for Finley and that’s starting to scare her.

Riese: Right.

Drew: And that, isn’t how it’s written.

Riese: Yeah.

Drew: It just written as this like zero to 60. And, and then what it does is undercut Sophie’s stance in this.

Analyssa: Right.

Drew: Which shouldn’t be undercut.

Riese: Well, it’s also relying on us, I guess, to fill in a lot of the gaps. Cause all, I mean this whole fucking season. In Sophie’s karaoke episode, we were all having a fun time, so I wasn’t going to talk about it. But like when she walks into the back room to find Finley. Finley’s back there chugging a beer — like there’s all of these moments where she sees Finley has a certain relationship to alcohol that’s unhealthy and no one ever says anything.

Analyssa: That, and that’s what I mean is like, it doesn’t feel like a gentle: Hey, that was like a pretty rough night. Or what if we talk? It’s just. And again,Sophie, as a character has gone through a lot of stuff, so it’s like a pile on. But yeah, it just feels like there were so many other again entry points to this conversation.

Riese: Right.

Analyssa: Where I would be totally on Sophie’s side and be like, yes, this is the right way of handling it. And instead I was like, I just feel like this is going to put Finley off and she’s going to be like, you’re insane. What are you talking about? Which is sort of what happened?

Drew: She could have, she, this could have been the way that this scene happened. If throughout the season there were little things building up to this moment.

Riese: Finley came home and said I’ve been sober all summer and then started drinking and everyone was like, LaDeDaDeDa . No-one was like, do you want to talk about that?

Drew: And with the drunk driving moment. If and when they were getting into the car. Sophie had been like, are you sure you’re okay? Instead, Finley chugged from a flask before they got in the car. So instead of having to treat the audience like were stupid. And that we need to see Finley chugging from a flask to know that Finley, who we clearly have seen as an alcoholic, is gonna be drunk while getting into this car. If instead she was like yeah, I haven’t had a drink since the one, an hour ago. Or whatever. And then Sophie would be like, okay, and then when they get pulled over, like Sophie looks, doesn’t like giggling and Finley looks serious.

Riese: Yeah.

Drew: But swap that.

Riese: Right.

Analyssa: Right.

Drew: And then, or have them both look serious. Like what it is that it just there’s no buildup to it. So then it makes you feel like, oh, well this feels out of nowhere or this feels harsh. And it’s like, no, that’s not narratively and character wise. That’s not how this should feel.

Analyssa: Right. Exactly.

Riese: And it’s also they don’t even address what just happened. Which is Sophie wanted to go home and Finley didn’t go home with her because she needed to keep drinking.

Drew: Right.

Analyssa: Right.

Riese: They don’t even address that.

Drew: Right.

Analyssa: Right.

Riese: Like what,

Analyssa: Or even again, you just had this insane thing happen. You couldn’t take one night off.

Drew: Right.

Riese: Right.

Analyssa: Totally reasonable.

Riese: Like yeah.

Analyssa: Still a little bit harsh thing to hear, but like totally reasonable entry point to, this conversation.

Drew: It’s just, it’s just such a poorly written scene.

Riese: Yeah. And that line saying you know, we just had this happen. Like, do you think you could take the night off and then having Finley be like yeah, sure. And then coming home drunk? Like that would’ve been a very easy edit and it would’ve really crystallized this situation.

Analyssa: And then coming home drunk, sure.

Drew: Right.

Riese: It’s so frustrating. Cause It’s the worst writing of the series.

Drew: Yeah.

Riese: Because also there’s been all this buildup towards it and, there’s stills from the next episode where you see Sophie sitting with Tess looking serious.

Analyssa: So I think she’s probably going to talk to her about talking to Finley, which I just, I think watching what we’ve watched all season where it doesn’t seem like people have been super concerned with Finley’s drinking or behavior. And then to go from that. Skip the entire step of concern and have Sophie, who again has always been really supportive and loving and like jump to, I felt like I was babysitting you. You can’t like, it just felt very punitive in a way that was surprising to me because I think the Sophie that I know who sat next to her grandma’s bed, for two episodes is would’ve been like, I’m really worried about you. You just had this big thing happen and it doesn’t seem to have affected you at all. And it’s really scary to me. And the other thing that’s really scary is sometimes your light goes out behind your eyes when we’re out together. And I don’t even know when that’s going to happen and that’s really terrifying. That’s a conversation. Anyways, so, Finley leaves.

Riese: Yeah. Finley fucking leaves.

Analyssa: And is walking around wasted in Los Angeles.

Riese: The only authentic thing about this conversation was that Sophie said, I don’t want to talk about this right now. And then they immediately talked about it. That’s authentic lesbian processing. That’s exactly how that happens. But, and even that like Finley left. Where?

Analyssa: Walking.

Riese: Where she decided to go could have been an interesting detail. You know what I mean?

Drew: Yeah.

Analyssa: So she’s walking. And then.

Riese: She’s going to fall asleep on a bench for sure.

Analyssa: And then it’s the next day, right? Or everyone’s in bed basically. I don’t know if everyone’s waking up yet or falling asleep now, but.

Drew: Yeah.

Riese: Finley’s probably asleep on the bench.

Drew: Yeah, we go to Pippa and Bette naked in bed.

Analyssa: Bras, in bras please. Well, okay.

Drew: Yes.

Analyssa: As you do, yes, please. I wake up and I immediately put my brassiere on.

Drew: It’s interesting that they don’t just like have them in like some sort of you know, sheets. I mean, this is, I feel about TV in general. Not even sheets.

Analyssa: They might have them in sheets. They might not really be in bras. My memory might be wrong.

Riese: I thought it was bras.

Drew: No, there were, it was. Yeah.

Analyssa: You mean like a pajama top?

Drew: Yeah. Yeah. Of some sort.

Analyssa: Even just like a tank top or a little Teddy.

Riese: She’s like I got the bag.

Drew: Yeah. But Pippa asks Bette if she’s considered that, sometimes you can burn down and still leave standing. Right. And it’s, I mean, I’m excited to see where that goes.

Riese: Oh yeah. Because they’re going to burn down Wax.

Analyssa: They say that they’re going to do it together again. Yeah. I love this for them.

Riese: Yeah. I love it. When people over 50 burn shit down.

Analyssa: Very metaphorical conversation. But okay. Again, I guess I prefer that to some of the other conversations that have been had in this episode. Yeah.

Drew: I’m just, again, interested to see if this is framed as like Bette versus Dani or if it’s going to be framed with like the seriousness and heaviness that it deserves

Analyssa: Feels like it’s going towards like feud instead of actual.

Drew: Where it’s like, but I’m thrilled to see like Bette back into like burnt down politics mode, but with like maybe more tact and Pippa, like being on like there with her I’m on board for that storyline. If it means having to like go back to season one, hating Dani, I guess I’ll do that.

Analyssa: A storyline that I’m in on is Tess and Shane are in bed and they’re sweet. And these two are the only, what I wrote is these two are the only people I understand. These are my moms, this is my home.

Drew: So, it’s possible.

Analyssa: Pippa and Bette end up in a place where I understand them. Shane and Tess were my rock this whole episode.

Drew: Yeah. I’m going, I don’t know if I’ve just like, am in a bad mood because of the rest of this episode. But I do have one note on this scene mm-hmm which is that Shane asks if it’s going to be a problem at work and Tess is like yeah, we should tell HR. And Shane says that she is HR and they kiss and it’s all jokey you know, like I think it’s fine morally that Tess and Shane are hooking up, but like be L Word’s relationship towards people fucking their coworkers and how it, and I think it’s pro.

Analyssa: I think it’s pro. And also like, not just coworkers, but people who work under you technically it’s very, pro.

Riese: And then they work under you.

Drew: Yeah.

Analyssa: The like the like’s a little dicey.

Drew: I would just, I’m just wanting to like, it is a soap opera it’s going to happen. I’d rather they not address it than address it and be like, haha. And we don’t care about this. I just you know, don’t learn about life from the L word is a pretty good lesson, always, but I’m just going to reiterate that one more time with this in particular. But yes, they’re very hot and cute together. I love it. Happy to see it. ETC, ETC

Analyssa: Not happy to see Finley never came home last night and there’s an egregious music cue. That’s like did I step too far? Did I push us too hard? And Sophie’s walking around like looking for Finley it’s 10:30 in the morning. So she’s been gone for hours at this point.

Drew: Okay. So that’s how it ends with Finley missing.

Riese: I thought they were going to at least show us Finley somewhere like on maybe Tess’ porch or something. Yeah. You know?

Analyssa: Or Shane’s porch. She used to live there. She could find her way there.

Riese: Yeah. Well I think they lost that set because have you noticed we have not been in Shane’s apartment at all? I think they lost that set.

Drew: And that’s the episode.

[music transition]

Drew: Did we like it? I hated it. It’s like one of my least favorite episodes of The L word in both series. Yeah.

Analyssa: Yeah, that one was rough.

Riese: That was really rough. And could have so easily been so much better. I honestly feel like something happened that week that they were writing this. It’s like inexcusably bad. There’s all of these opportunities where very easily things could have been made just a little bit more sense and they just didn’t do it.

Drew: It’s honestly just like, it’s like pretty disrespectful to the cast and like, and to the characters and to like what’s been built, like I just like it’s, it’s just, there’s all the elements are there and it’s so frustrating. Yeah, maybe next week will be better. I mean it has to be right.

Riese: I feel like it’s not going to be.

Analyssa: I’m hopeful, but nervous.

Drew: I at least feel more optimistic that Bette and Pippa are going to actually be together and we’re going to get to like explore that in a way that’s exciting rather than Bette getting back with Tina. Cause Allen, when Carrie last episode was like, I don’t think I could be with Tina. I was like, no fucking way are they going to get Bette and Tina back together?

Riese: I feel like they’re going to do a last a cliffhanger.

Analyssa: I do think so too.

Drew: I know. I, I will be. So if that’s where like, I don’t know, I just, oh

Riese: God, I just hope Carrie doesn’t leave Tina at the altar. They love to do that on this show.

Analyssa: So many of that in each iteration of the um.

Drew: I’m so tired. I’m like a few episodes ago. Remember how happy I was. Yeah know I’m that was two episodes ago.

Riese: Remember how I like, wanted Finley and Sophie to get together. And it was like, no, we have to wait till the end. I wish that we had waited to the end because I feel like it’s going to fall apart.

Drew: I don’t even. I just, do I like any of the characters anymore?

Riese: I would love to see their relationship progress as Finley comes to grip with this, Sophie comes to grip with whatever she, she has going on, like all that stuff. And I feel like we’re not going to

Analyssa: Which doesn’t feel again fair to the characters or to the actors who like can carry that storyline. Like it would be different if it was a cast that I didn’t trust to pull off that sort of nuance or complicated story. I think they could all do it let them try.

Riese: But again, like Emmy for Rosanny, she spoke so many words with her face.

Analyssa: Really did it.

Riese: She really gave it her all and whatever happened in the writer’s room that week. I’m so sorry for everyone’s loss. Which was our loss. And that is my L word loss.

Analyssa: Mine was going to be lousy.

Drew: I don’t, doesn’t Lauren need us to pause in between us doing our L words

Riese: This week will be different.

Drew: I, oh you, you guys said L words lousy and mine is I’m going to get there. My L word is lead, because instead of watching this episode, I wish I had guzzled a gallon of lead paint.

Analyssa: I thought you were going to say like misled or you know, they led me astray.

Drew: Nope.

Riese: My follow up L word is lactose intolerant. Because that’s how this episode made me feel. And you guys realize I still have probably 12, 13 hours ahead of me recapping this motherfucking episode. So that’s really brutal.

Drew: That’s really brutal. It’s incredibly brutal. I’m very sorry.

Lauren: Thank you so much for listening to this episode of, To L and Back generation Q one of two podcasts brought to you by autostraddle.com. You can follow us on Instagram and twitter @tolandback and you can also email us at tolandbackcast@gmail.com. Don’t forget. We also have a hotline. Yes, it still exists. Give us a call, leave us a message. Or just give us a piece of your mind. You can reach us at 9 7 1 2 1 7 6 1 3 0. We also have merch! Head over to store at autostraddle.com. There are Bette Porter for president t-shirts. There are To L and Back stickers and lots of other simply iconic autostraddle.com merchandise. Our theme song is by the talented be said, well, our brand new to L and back generation Q logo is by the incredible Jackie Cho. Jackie is so, so talented and you should definitely go check out her work. I’ve linked her website in socials in the show notes. And definitely let us know if you want us to make stickers of the new logo because I think those would look pretty sick. This episode was produced, edited and mixed by me. Lauren Klein. You can find me on Instagram @LaurenTaylorKlein and on Twitter @LTKlein. You can follow drew everywhere @drawGregory that’s drew in the present tense. You can follow Annalisa on Instagram @Analokaa with two A’s and on Twitter @Analoka_ with one a in an underscore, you can follow our in-house L word savant and living legend Reise Bernard everywhere @autowin auto straddle is @autostraddle. And of course the reason why we are all here, autostraddle.com.

Exit Music: Laughing, moving fisting, fighting, crying, drinking, squirting, judging, ranting, camping, riding thinking. This is the way it’s the way, the way and okay.

“Wait, Is This a Date?” Podcast Episode 107: Love Is Not a Lie

Wipe away those break up tears because we’re going to show you that love is not a lie! This week we have Autostraddle editor and all around icon Heather Hogan talking about her 11 year(!!) relationship with her wife and all things long term relationships.

But first! We celebrate being reunited — after an eventful summer! — and play a game of guess the show from the fanfic.

SHOW NOTES

+ If you’re an A+ member, you can read this massive crossover fanfic that the Autostraddle TV Team collectively wrote, including the Buffy/Faith/Nia Nal threesome I concocted.

+ One of the first pieces I wrote for Autostraddle was this essay about season one of Fleabag.

+ Another reason to be an A+ member: this exclusive look at Heather and Stacy’s wedding!

+ I love communication but as Vanessa detailed here there is such a thing as too much processing.

+ If you want a further look into my attitude that just because a relationship ends doesn’t mean it wasn’t meaningful, check out my favorite essay I’ve ever written.

Heather: We stayed out the whole night, which is just so out of character for both of us. And I think it was just, it’s really indicative of our relationship, I think, where it was just like, this is awesome. Let’s just do the next thing. This is so fun. Let’s just do the next thing. And I think that’s just been exactly how our relationship’s been for like 11 years. Every step has just been like, “This part’s great. What’s the next thing we could do?” So, yeah.

Theme song plays

Drew: Hi, I’m Drew.

Christina: And I’m Christina.

Drew: And welcome to, Wait, Is This a Date?

Christina: Wait, Is This a Date? is an Autostraddle podcast dedicated to the burning question: wait, is this a date? Where Drew and I discover all sorts of things about dating. What is dating, what isn’t dating. And really just have a grand adventure, I’d say.

Drew: I would also say that it has been a grand adventure so far and will continue to be. My name is Drew Gregory. I’m a writer for Autostraddle and a filmmaker and a trans lesbian. And I want to have something new to add to the mix. I never can think of anything new. I think those are my identities.

Christina: Sometimes identity doesn’t change, despite what TikTok will tell you.

Drew: I’m Jewish.

Christina: Yeah. I mean like—

Drew: Sort of. I mean, yeah. No, I’m not religious, but that is also part of my identity. You can tell from my hair.

Christina: That hasn’t changed though, I suppose.

Drew: That I’m Jewish?

Christina: Yeah. You’ve been Jewish.

Drew: No, I’ve been Jewish. Yeah, that didn’t happen between the two episodes. Well, who are you, Christina?

Christina: I’m Christina. I’m also a writer at Autostraddle. A loud homosexual on the internet. I’m really looking forward to the advent of Princess Diana season, AKA bike shorts and sweatshirts. That’s where I’m trying to be. I’m in Philadelphia, so it is 96 degrees today. So we’re slowly getting there. It’s just like I want it right now. It’s my ideal time. I want to be a main character in the fall, and it’s not happening yet.

Drew: Yeah. Well, what’s exciting that you’re revealing just now is, so for our listeners, it’s been a week since our last episode, which is what it always is. But for us, we actually recorded the first six episodes as we were finding our voice and developing this new podcast. We recorded that in advance, but now we’re pretty current. So this is like we’ve had a whole summer. So we haven’t recorded in months and we’ve been up to all sorts of things

Christina: Uncharted territory. The last time we recorded, we hadn’t met. We’ve met in person.

Drew: That’s true! Yes!

Christina: Drew was in my ding, dang home, just hanging out.

Drew: Yes!

Christina: I would just wake up and be like, “Well, look, that’s Drew over there.”

Drew: So nice.

Christina: It was really delightful.

Drew: You have such a lovely home.

Christina: Thank you. It’s a gay chaos home and we love it very dearly. Yeah. So we’re just on a new journey and it’s really exciting to be going on this venture with our listeners. Do we have anything else we want to pontificate about before we get into our little game?

Drew: I mean, I don’t know. I had a big summer, but I guess things will come up as the episodes come along, but…

Christina: Yeah, I don’t want you to load it all in the front.

Drew: You don’t want me to spoil anything?

Christina: Yeah. Load it all in the front? My God, what a horrible sentence.

Drew: It sounded a little bit sexual, but also I really had more of a thought of like—

Christina: It did!

Drew: I thought more though that you were leaving Home Depot and were like getting into your car, which I know you don’t have, but that was also where my brain is, which also might be sexual.

Christina: I also just love that the thing that’s keeping me from going to Home Depot is a car and not the very person that I am. Like every time I’ve been at a Home Depot, someone has been like, “Ma’am are you lost? Are you safe here?” And I’m like, “No, frankly. So much wood around. I’m not safe.” So I have a game for Drew because we love to play games.

Drew: I’m listening.

Christina: And I decided, both in honor of myself and our guest, that this was going to be a little intro into the world of fanfic for Drew. So what I have done is I’ve taken five shows from Drew’s Favorite Characters in Television list, and I am going to read you some tags from AO3’s fanfiction and you are going to have to guess which of the shows these tags are referring to. I will start general, they will get more specific to the show as we go along.

Drew: Okay. I just have some questions—

Christina: Of course you do.

Drew: Because I don’t know a lot about the fanfic world. So every show has words that are associated with that show?

Christina: Yes.

Drew: That range in specificity, I would imagine?

Christina: Yes. Yes, they do.

Drew: And so if you wanted to find a show that had like, I don’t know, medieval times you could hit the medieval tag.
Christina: I’ll say that I didn’t find any medieval times tags in any of these shows. Love to see it.

Drew: Well, that’s not my taste, but I was just throwing something out.

Christina: Yes.

Drew: Because I guess in my brain, I was like, oh, well, if you are reading fanfic, you’re looking for shows that have characters you like. But that’s not always the case. Sometimes you’re just looking for a topic and then you can discover shows from the fanfic?

Christina: You could. That would be a strange way to approach fanfic because most people approach it knowing the ship they have in mind. And then they say, I want to read perhaps an alternate universe version of this fanfic. Perhaps I would like some hurt comfort. Perhaps I would like a slow burn. Maybe I just want some straight up smut. There’s a lot of areas in which people go. And then there’s also just additional tags, letting you know the kind of flavor and vibe of the story. And we’re going to go flavor and vibe. Because obviously ships will give it away and an alternate universe is not particularly helpful per the show, so we’re going to be specific to the show.

Drew: Okay, cool. Let’s jump into it.

Christina: All right.

Drew: Let’s learn together. Yeah.

Christina: All right. Your first one. We’re going to start with fictional politics, praise kink, abandonment issues, very slow burn.

Drew: Praise kink, political… Fictional politics?

Christina: Fictional politics, yes.

Drew: Does that mean like politics that are grounded in the real world, but are fictional or totally fictional politics?

Christina: I haven’t read the fic in question, but I’m assuming it means totally fictional politics.

Drew: Okay.

Christina: We can keep going.

Drew: Yeah, keep going.

Christina: Past abuse, hurt comfort, I need soft things to live and so do you. Hilarious tag. Just had to read that one.

Drew: Okay, wait. Maybe I should take a second and think about what my favorite shows are. Okay. Because I’m trying to think of the shows that have politics in them. Oh wait, is it The L Word?

Christina: This one is not The L Word. No.

Drew: Because that does have fake politics.

Christina: It does.

Drew: Because Bette runs for mayor. I don’t know if you remember that.

Christina: Oh, I do.

Drew: Okay, let’s see. What other… Vida has politics.

Christina: Vida has politics.

Drew: Is it Vida?

Christina: Unfortunately, Vida does not have any fanfics.
Drew: Oh, what?

Christina: I know. So people, get to it.

Drew: People, get on that. I would read that fanfic.

Christina: People, get to it.

Drew: Okay. Let’s see. What other…

Christina: I can keep going.

Drew: Keep going. Yeah.

Christina: Cat and mouse. Possessive behavior.

Drew: Oh, oh, Killing Eve.

Christina: There you go.

Drew: Cat and mouse got me. Oh, praise kink. Yeah. Okay, it’s all clicking. It’s all clicking.

Christina: It all clicks. It all clicks. It was also a challenge because I had to find ones that were specific enough to the show, but also like, it might surprise you to know there’s a lot of praise kink things out there.

Drew: Yeah.

Christina: Just like a ton. Just like a ton.

Drew: I believe that. I love our community.

Christina: I know. One of these is not on your list of favorite TV shows and/or favorite TV characters because some of your favorite TV shows did not have fics, which was sad.

Drew: Great.

Christina: But this is a show we have talked about a ton and I think you’ll get it.

Drew: Okay.

Christina: At some point. This is going to be so easy for you, I feel.

Drew: Oh, God. Pressure.

Christina: Male friendship. Emotionally repressed.

Drew: Looking?

Christina: No.

Drew: Ted Lasso?

Christina: Yep. Yep.

Drew: Like, what shows do I watch with men? Okay, let’s try the gay one. Nope. Let’s try the straight one.

Christina: Yeah, the other one was going to be “team bonding” and I was like, that’s an easy one. There’s an easy one. All right. Let’s see. Canon character death, LGBTQ character of color. There’s a tongue twister for you. Families of choice. Mother daughter relationship.

Drew: Sense 8?

Christina: No. In the area, I would say. I would say in that zone.

Drew: Pose?

Christina: Yeah. The next one was going to be canon sex work, so — all right, we have two more.

Drew: Okay. I love it.

Christina: Jealousy. I am scared of this next episode because I don’t trust the writers. A literal tag on this fic. Iconic.

Drew: Okay. I mean, I don’t think Glee is on my list, but that is what I would first think.

Christina: It is not Glee. I don’t think Glee was on any of your lists.

Drew: It’s not.

Christina: But funny point. Ex-lovers to friends back to lovers trope, family feels, friendship. A long awaited reunion.

Drew: Ex-lovers to friends back. Is this The L word?

Christina: It is The L word.

Drew: Okay. I was like, ex-lovers to friends back to ex… Yeah, the ex-lovers.

Christina: The sad thing about The L word fanfic is the staggering amount of Bette Tina fanfic is just like, y’all need to…

Drew: You know, I think we might have an excuse to get into this later. That’s a little tease for our main topic.

Christina: All right. Angst.

Drew: Okay.

Christina: Bittersweet ending.

Drew: Freaks and Geeks?

Christina: Close — no, not close. I don’t need to lie to you.

Drew: I don’t know why. I just took a jab at angst and bittersweet ending. That’s just sort of my thing.

Christina: Yeah. That’s true. That’s very true. Romance (very sad). That’s in parentheses, the very sad.

Drew: And it’s not The Leftovers.

Christina: It’s not The Leftovers. I’m not going to give this-

Drew: Okay. I’m going to be able to get this. So angst.

Christina: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Drew: Bittersweet ending.

Christina: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Romance parenthesis sad.

Drew: Romance, very sad.

Christina: Unresolved sexual tension.

Drew: This is all. This is just me. This is like everything. This could just be anything.

Christina: Yeah, welcome to fanfic, babe.

Drew: Ooh. I mean, wow. What a welcome.

Christina: Pining is another one.

Drew: How is this in the same family? Okay, wait, let me think about shows that I love that are gay and have an angst. Pining.

Christina: I will say this show is not gay.

Drew: Oh.

Christina: But it is a show that I know you love.

Drew: Ooh.

Christina: Would you like one that’s going to give it away?

Drew: I do think we need to get on with the podcast—

Christina: I do.

Drew: But if it was just you and I like hanging out as friends, I would be like, no, no, no, give me a half hour. But okay, give me the one.

Christina: Blasphemy, religious trauma.

Drew: Fleabag.

Christina: There it is.

Drew: There it is. Fleabag is a show that now that some of the crazy culture around it has gone away and it’s not like all these annoying people’s personalities, I’m like, incredible show.

Christina: Yeah.

Drew: Just a great show.

Christina: Yeah.

Drew: What a great, great television program. That was a lot of fun. Thank you.

Christina: Anytime.

Drew: And I’d like to just make a public service… No, that’s not what it is. Just like a request to the people that I want some Vida fanfic. I will read it. I don’t know who I want it to be between. Maybe it can be, what’s it called when it’s like two… We did this. We did this in the TV team. We did like a cross… What’s the word for it? What’s it when it’s like multiple shows?

Christina: Yeah. Cross… Cross… That thing. I know what you’re saying. I can’t think of the word. We could bring our guest in. I know they know the word.

Drew: Okay. We’re going to get into our major topic we can bring in our guest so her head doesn’t explode as she’s trying to tell us this word. Guest, do you want to introduce yourself?

Heather: Yes. Hello, this is Heather Hogan. I am an Autostraddle writer and editor. And usually when I listen to this podcast, I play along like it’s a game show when y’all are doing your games. It was very hard for me to be quiet while this was happening.

Christina: I was like, this is going to be really fun, but it’s also going to be so hard for me to do this and Heather just be silent.

Heather: Yeah. My favorite so far has been, “Who Said It: Drew or Sappho?”

Christina: Thank you.

Heather: And I was truly cheering like I was on The Price Is Right. I was like, “Christina, no it’s Drew! It’s Drew! It’s Drew! No, it’s Sappho!” But you did great. You didn’t even need my help at that game.

Christina: Re-listening to that one, I was really like, well, damn I do know my friends slash I guess the text of Sappho.

Heather: You did really well.

Drew: You crushed it. I also went through… To make sure the game worked, I tried it on several people. Some people who do know me better than you do, Christina, and they all could not do it. So I was very impressed by you.

Christina: Sounds like I’m a winner, which is all that matters.

Drew: Heather, tell us what that word is for our fanfiction.

Heather: It’s just crossover.

Christina: It’s a crossover, yeah!

Drew: Crossover! Oh, okay. Okay. I thought there was some fancy word for it. But anyways, if someone wants to write Vida fanfic that’s a crossover, it’s something else that I love. I’d love to see more of it. So our main topic this week is not fanfic. It is long-term relationships. Because, Heather, how long have you been in your current relationship?

Heather: I have been with my wife for 11 years.

Drew: Oh, that’s so long.

Christina: Drew, have you done anything consistently for 11 years? Because I certainly haven’t.

Drew: No, not even gender. I haven’t done anything. What have I done? I’m trying to think if I can think of anything that I’ve done for 11 years. I mean, I’ve—

Christina: Nicotine. I have done some form of nicotine for 11 years. Nailed it.

Drew: Wow. I haven’t even had any addictions that have gone that long.

Christina: Oh, okay. Brag.

Drew: Except there’s certain art things that I’ve loved for 11 years.

Christina: Yeah. I feel like there’s probably movies.

Drew: My relationship with Agnes Varda and Jane Campion, those are over 11 years long.

Christina: That tracks.

Drew: Yeah. But yeah. Wow. So I’d love to start off by just getting more backstory about you and Stacy.

Heather: Sure.

Drew: Can I say her name on the podcast?

Heather: Yes, yes, yes. You can say it.

Drew: Or you want me not?

Heather: No, it’s…

Drew: Okay. Okay. Okay.

Christina: It’d be really funny if we bleeped it though. It’d be really dramatic.

Heather: It would be so dramatic.

Christina: If we had a musical sting every time we said her name. Could be fun.

Drew: So I just want to start by just like, how did you meet? What’s the story there?

Heather: Yeah. So we met on Twitter in 2010, which is, I don’t know. Were you guys on Twitter in 2010? How old were you in 2010? You were?

Christina: I was.

Drew: I was on in 2011, I joined.

Christina: It was the embarrassing time of me being on Twitter. It was like when I didn’t understand who I was talking to or why. I was adding celebrities randomly.

Heather: It was a free-for-all.

Christina: It was bad.

Heather: It was like the first exposure regular people had ever had to celebrities or TV writers in a way where you could engage one on one. It was a mess.

Christina: It was not cute. But we all grew and got a different kind of worse on Twitter. So that’s beautiful.

Heather: It’s a different kind of mess now, yeah. So it was like 2010 and I was writing for a different queer website. I guess it’s a lesbian only website that shall not be named.

Christina: We do not speak it, yes.

Heather: We do not speak it. And I was writing some Skins recaps and… Mm-hmm (affirmative). I know.

Christina: That’s beautiful stuff.

Heather: And so you know how TV fans are on Twitter? And this has never changed. They either love what you write and they think you’re a genius or they’re like, I wish you would die in a fire tornado and your corpse would be eaten by sharks. Anyway, so I was kind of navigating that for the first time. And one day Stacy, out of the blue, tweeted me a video of Paula Dean getting hit in the face with a canned ham.

Christina: High art and comedy. Incredible.

Heather: Classic. We have a very similar sense of humor. To this day, watching Paula Dean get hit in the face with a ham, any racist getting hit in the face with a ham, is a beautiful thing to me. So she tweeted that at me and I was like, who is this clown? And we started tweeting back and forth. And then we started in the Twitter DMs and then we started emailing. And yeah, I guess we sort of declared our intentions because we started sending playlists instead of just emails. You know that sort of elevates it.

Drew: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Christina: Yeah, that’s pretty gay.

Heather: And then we met in 2011 when I was in New York for work. I lived in Georgia at the time, where I was born and raised, and she lived in New York City. So yeah.

Christina: Yeah. I was going to ask how far the distance was. I just assumed there was a distance. I was like, well—

Heather: Definitely a distance. And yeah, I was in New York for work, funnily enough, for the US Skins release party.

Christina: Oh right. I forgot that they did that.

Heather: The universally beloved US Skins.

Christina: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Heather: Yeah. And we met up then and that was 2011 and then here we are.

Christina: Here we are at the tail end of 2021.

Drew: Wow. At what point did you think like, oh, this could be something real?

Heather: I think when we met in real life the first time. When I sort of look back on it now, the first night that we spent together was just so surreal and uncharacteristic for both of us. We went to dinner and then we went to this Skin’s premiere party, which was a complete, just total shit show. There had been a blizzard. The party was in a warehouse on the waterfront. And the cops came and busted the whole thing up. And we got chased off by the cops and then we were in the back of this cab and it was snowing. And in my life, when something bad happens, I’m like, oh, well, on to the next adventure. But Stacy does not get over things really quickly. She doesn’t downshift that fast. She needs some time to feel her disappointment and process her disappointment. And I could look back now and see her in the cab, just like, should I just leave this girl here and go home and never see her again? But then we went to The Cubbyhole, the gay bar in New York City.

Christina: Classic.

Heather: Which we’ve never been back to since that night, in over a decade. But we stayed there until it shut down. I’d never been in a bar till it closed before. They rang a bell. I was like, what the hell is that? And then it was like 3:00 AM. And then we went to get a cheeseburger. We stayed out like the whole night, which is just so out of character for both of us. And I think it’s really indicative of our relationship, I think, where it was just like, this is awesome. Let’s just do the next thing. This is so fun. Let’s just do the next thing. And I think that’s just been exactly how our relationship has been for like 11 years. Every step has just been like, this part’s great. What’s the next thing we can do? So yeah.

Christina: All of that is so baffling to me. It’s so beautiful. It’s straight up out of some sort of rom-dramedy on a streaming service. I would love to see it portrayed.

Heather: What streaming service?

Christina: Can’t quite tell yet. I think… If it was like younger adults, I would absolutely say Netflix.

Heather: Sure.

Christina: But this kind of mid, it’s tough to say.

Heather: It’s true.

Christina: We might have to add a fantasy element. We’ll see what happens. We’ll see what happens. How have you guys navigated this whole… So much of your life has changed in 10 years, like Drew and I were just talking, we haven’t done anything the same in 10 years. How do you navigate changing and growing with a person in that way?

Heather: That’s a great question.

Christina: Also, I love that this is just Drew and I interviewing you on what’s it like to be an adult with an adult relationship? We simply do not know.

Heather: I think that’s so much of the thing about successful long-term relationships… People in long-term relationships are so smug when they talk about it, but the truth is that there’s just so much luck involved in it. If it happens, and the timing is right and the luck is there and the luck remains there, it’s not… When I met Stacy, I was not ready to think about being in the kind of relationship that would lead to marriage. And she certainly was not. We were ready to flirt on Twitter and then we were ready to meet. Then we were ready to go for a cheeseburger at 3:00 AM. You know what I mean? Neither of us were ready for what it became. And I don’t think either of us had ever been ready for the next step until we were ready for the next step. I certainly was not looking for that.

Christina: That’s always what they say, right? You can’t be searching. You got to let it come to you in a moment.

Heather: You got to just wait for that video of Paula Dean’s ham face.

Christina: I will say, if I ever see that video again, I will be like, where did it come from? That person is my intended.

Drew: Before Stacy, what was your relationship history and what was hers? Was this the first long-term relationship that you both had? Or had you both done this before on a smaller scale?

Heather: Yeah, I think we had both done it on a smaller scale. Stacy was out in high school in rural Wisconsin. She’s just the coolest, bravest person that I know.

Christina: Go the hell off, Stacy.

Heather: I mean, she’s just… She’s just amazing. And so anyway, she was just out and she was like dating in high school. She was dating people she knew. She was dating on the internet. She went to film school at Northwestern, which is just full of queer people. And she dated plenty of people there and she was dating in New York. And I also dated some really wonderful women and I was in some very complicated situation-ships, because I was in rural Georgia so I was in some complicated friendships with straight women.

Christina: Right.

Drew: Yeah. Yep.

Heather: But yeah, I think we had both dated. I think neither of us had ever really been with somebody that made us just want to take whatever the next step was that got us to the place where we had never been before.

Christina: Yeah.

Drew: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Heather: Yeah.

Christina: Wow.

Drew: Yeah. Well, because, okay, so Christina, what’s your longest relationship or what is your history with “long term relationships,” whatever that means to you?

Christina: My longest relationship was a smooth nine months. That’s it. It was long, but it also was marked by my girlfriend at the time being like, “Oh, I’m going to move in this fall.” So I was like, oh, okay. So like this is long-term dating with an expiration date. And I suppose there is a possibility where we, different people or differently in our relationship, we would have continued said relationship. But both of us were kind of like, no, doing a long distance thing is not really where we want to be. And before that, I don’t know, like three months, two months? Like longish dating. Kind of just around the point where you’re like, is this the girlfriend situation? Also a lot of those were with cis men, bravely of me. So brave. So every day I was so brave. So yeah, and which is strange… Not strange because I famously hate dating and that’s why we have this podcast because I hate dating and Drew loves doing it. But the thing about me is, in a long term steady scenario, that’s really where CT is going to thrive. CT is going to be here baking, ideally not working and having some sort of businesswoman wife who does stuff outside for me and then I just do the inside stuff. That’s really where I’m going to thrive. I just got to get there. I just got to do the bad part first, which is the dating part.

Heather: I agree with you completely.

Drew: Yeah, you would be an amazing wife.

Christina: Really? Just chef’s kiss. Chef’s kiss of it.

Drew: Yeah.

Christina: What about you? You’ve had a long relationship.

Drew: Yeah. So my first long-term relationship was a few months into college. It was my first serious relationship. And I wasn’t the luckiest, coolest in high school. So this was the first person who… I had kissed a few people, but this was really the first person who I had any sort of relationship with. And that also was a similar situation where there was an expiration date because part of her program was studying abroad her entire junior year, and she was a sophomore when I was a freshman. So a lot of our relationship was marked by this knowledge that we would break up at the end of the summer. Then we did. And then we got back together because we were young and stupid and we should not have, and then there was like several months… So technically we dated for a year and some months, but the last, I don’t know, six months of that was miserable. We barely talked. It was awful. She cheated on me. I didn’t even know that until years later and I didn’t even care at that point because I looked back on it and I was like, oh, that was the least of the concerns. It was mostly the six months where we didn’t talk, but we were still together. So I had that relationship where it was just very much like, “I’m 18!” And then I had my last serious relationship, which was about three and a half years, a little less. And that one was like, we lived together for about a year and a half, I think it was, and really shared a life together in a way that felt… The year before we broke up, I had started putting money aside for us to get a dog. And we had talked about marriage at some point. That was a very serious relationship. And I look back on both of those relationships, but especially the second one, as very positive. Even though it ended, it was a very successful relationship. I think we both grew a lot. And we’re not still friends, and she doesn’t like when I write about her or talk about her, so I probably should not get into too many specifics. But I view it very positively. And then something that I think I’m thinking about a lot right now is that I’m… And this is also something I’m not going to talk about a lot. But I’m sort of stepping, tiptoeing into what looks like it might be my next relationship of sorts. And so I think I’m thinking a lot about the past and the future and… Because I do think, what you’re saying, Heather, about it being largely about luck and about living in the moment and being like, oh, I want to take this next step with this person. Instead of being like, oh, I met this person and they’re going to be my forever person. That’s so intense. And I don’t know if I even really believe in that, at least for myself. And so it’s more just, it’s not like, oh, well what’s the secret? As much as it is… I guess I actually am trying to think and just lower the pressure all around in a way that I think in my first two serious relationships, I was very conscious of like, where’s this going to go? Where is this going to go? Where is this going to go? And this time I’m like, I just keep wanting to talk to this person and see this person and this person just makes me really happy. And as long as that continues, like, wow, how great. And trying to remove some of the pressure.

Heather: Yeah. I think one of the major problems I think around long-term relationships is that there’s a zero sum approach to dating, right? It’s like you’re trying to answer a yes no question. And it’s like, every step you take, it’s like, is this person the one? Is this person who I’m going to spend the rest of my life with? And I just think that’s kind of baloney. I don’t believe in that kind of thing. I don’t believe in “the one.” I don’t believe in that zero sum where you go and every date is where you’re trying to meet someone that you’re going to also die with. That’s just too much pressure to exist underneath. And so I think when people talk about “the one,” I think it takes a lot of personal responsibility off of relationships. And I also think it takes a lot of what I really do believe is just the luck of waking up every day and both you and the other person or other people wanting to continue to work at the relationship. And there’s no secret to that. That’s just, there’s some things you can do and you can control. But the hard part about admitting that about dating is that it really does just, there’s just no control over it whatsoever. And that’s very hard. It’s really hard.

Christina: Yeah. I know. That’s why I love dating. It’s so fun and loosey goosey and uncontrolled. All of my favorite words. I love that.

Heather: I know. Christina, you just said this, and it’s really interesting because it’s like the game that y’all played, “Would U-Haul.” Where it’s like, and I liked the way you talked about this because this is kind of how I felt when I was dating as well, where it’s almost like you have to trick yourself into not thinking further than like… Like when Drew was describing that scenario. It’s like there was the weekend and then you were together for like three months. And like you were saying a long-term relationship with an expiration date on it. You almost have to trick your brain into not spiraling further down the road.

Christina: Maybe that’s what I need to start working on is more brain trickery for me and just less overthinking and anxiety, perhaps, would be helpful for me.

Drew: Yeah. I mean, in my current situation, starting a long distance relationship during a pandemic with someone who lives in another country, when it started, it was, oh, I’m flirting with a hot person on Instagram. And there were people in Los Angeles who I was like, I have feelings for that person. What would that be? If we started dating, what would it be like? What would my involvement in that person’s life be? And all of those things did not work out. Whereas the person who I was like, oh, this hot person who I enjoy talking to every few weeks on Instagram, I had to trick myself. And I’m sure there are people out there who are emotionally well adjusted, who don’t need to trick themselves into getting into…

Christina: Huge, if true.

Drew: But for me, and maybe for all of us, it did require a certain amount of like, oh, this is always going to be casual. Oh, is it?

Heather: Right. Right.

Drew: So, yeah. I don’t know. I guess flirt with people in other countries? That’s terrible advice. You should probably go to therapy. But it’s worked for me.

Christina: Also, Drew, think about our audience. They’re already doing that. Let’s be honest.

Drew: It is true.

Christina: Come on, now. Come on, now.

Heather: This is a funny conversation for me because I do experience things in the moment and I don’t tend to worry too much about… I’m not a big processor. I’m not a big spiraler. I just, whatever happens, I feel like I’ll do it. And then if it works out, I’ll be excited. And if not, I’ll figure out how to fix it, that it didn’t work. And Stacy is not like that at all. She’s a person who experiences time in a very non-linear way. And it’s like both the past and the future like crushing in on her at all times. So being in a long distance relationship with no real aim when we were first together was actually very easy for me. But I think for her, it was not. The more secure our relationship got, the better it got because she was as secure as I was. But yeah, it is interesting to think about that now.

Christina: How long were you—

Drew: You are a Sagittarius?

Heather: I am.

Drew: I’m sorry. I was immediately pivoting to astrology.

Heather: It’s true.

Christina: We are going to astrology, but I did want to know how long you guys were long distance before you were in person?

Heather: About two years, two and a half years probably. And even just moving in was as silly as everything else. It was like, we were just at dinner one night when I was visiting her in New York and we were like, “Let’s move in.” “Okay, good idea.” You know what I mean? It was not a big processing thing. It was just like, this feels like the next step for us. Let’s do it. I think probably, in terms of the most processing we’ve ever done about a next step in our relationship, it was finally getting rid of the Ikea furniture. We’ve moved on to the place where we’re going to have assembled furniture into our house. That’s the thing, probably, that we’ve spent the most time really processing.

Christina: That is fascinating.

Heather: Yeah.

Drew: Wow.

Christina: Yeah. Yeah, Drew, get into astrology.

Drew: Oh, I was just going to say that, that checks out with you being a Sag sun and I was wondering what Stacy’s sun sign was?

Heather: She is an Aries.

Christina: Ooh, intriguing.

Heather: Yeah.

Christina: Fiery.

Heather: Very fiery and no grudges. We don’t hold on to arguments. We just talk it out and we’re done. We don’t bring up past stuff, ever.

Christina: That sounds healthy.

Drew: That actually brings me to the next thing that I wanted to talk about because I think something that I see friends struggle with all the time is when they’re having problems in their long-term relationships being like, when do you know that you should work on it? And when is it time to give up on it? Because I think for myself, I don’t really struggle with that because I do think we had, as we talked about last week, I do just sort of jump to breakups pretty quickly, or just to… At least when, I don’t know, I think relatively quickly. And so sometimes I’ll have friends talking about problems in their relationships and I’ll be like, well, if I was this person I would not be in this relationship, but also they seem to have a relationship to fighting and to conflict that I don’t have. So do you have any thoughts on that as far as like… Because obviously, long-term relationships do take work and they’re not going to be perfect. But sort of figuring out the difference between innate incompatibility and just the normal difficulties of life?

Heather: Yeah. I’m going to say something that’s the weirdest thing about mine and Stacy’s relationship, which is that in 11 years, she has never, and I have never, said anything to intentionally hurt the other person. Ever. And we are very nice to each other. We are really kind and very careful with each other. We are more careful with each other than we are with anybody else. And we’re more careful with each other’s feelings. We’re more attentive. And I think we’ve understood that us as individuals and us as a couple, it’s a very fragile thing in a very hard world. And so in our relationship, in the conflict that we’ve had, there’s never been conflict we’ve had where I have felt like Stacy and I are on opposite… I don’t ever feel like we’re fighting each other. I don’t feel like we’re on opposite sides of a table trying to get what we want. I feel like we’re on the same side of the table trying to figure out something that’s on the other side of the table. We’re together trying to figure out how to fix the thing that’s over there. I always feel like she’s on my team. We saw a couples therapist early on after we moved in together. And one thing that she worked with us on and that has stuck with me, I think it’s the most profound thing anyone’s ever helped me realize, was that so oftentimes in conflict we revert to these very traumatized childhood versions of ourselves. And so we behave like the childhood versions of ourselves. We behave like these hurt children who don’t have the resources and tools to do the things that we do as adults. So she told us to think about when you’re in conflict about these specific things, think, Heather, you’re reacting as this 12 year old child. And Stacy, you’re reacting as your 12 year old child. And when she was telling us that I was imagining Stacy and I being like 12 years old, in our different lives, and how hard it was for us to, at that time, individually and what all we went through and sort of just the hard parts of our life. And I think about what if those little 12 year old girls were able to be together in a tree house. And I have this vision of us in a tree house at dusk with fireflies and whatever in this place where each of our 12 year old selves could be safe. And so when we have conflict that brings out those traumas in us, I always think back to us being like, okay, in this moment, we’re just these kids and we just need to be a safe place for these kids to deal with these really scary feelings and then we can be the adults that we are in our relationship. So yeah, I think, just for us, I don’t think we’ve ever had a conflict or a series of conflicts that have made me question our relationship. Because even in the hard stuff that we’ve dealt with and tried to figure out, I’ve never felt like we were against each other. I’ve never felt like we’re at odds with each other. And I’ve also never felt like we’re trying to actually hurt each other. Not that we don’t hurt each other, just that we’re not trying to hurt each other.

Drew: Sure.

Christina: Right. Wow. First of all, if this podcast doesn’t get you a damn self-help book deal, then I think we have failed as a nation and as a people.

Heather: I am an elderly lesbian. I’ve lived a lot of lives.

Christina: Yeah, that was beautiful as hell, dog. What the hell? Coming out here on this Tuesday afternoon with feelings.

Drew: Wow. Yeah, I’m like, my heart. Yeah. I think a lot about how people are really afraid to be alone. And we talked about this on our breakup episode. And because so many of us have experiences with families or, I don’t know, other relationships or whatever that have taught us certain expectations, I sometimes think that just collectively our expectations and what we think we deserve is not high enough. And what you’re saying about how you and Stacy are never against each other, that there’s still conflict, but that you aren’t in conflict with each other, is so poignant to me and, I think, is something that is really possible for relationships in general. And I think so many relationships are just filled with conflict. And, look, if that works for certain people, that’s fine and I’m not here to judge. But I at least know for myself that that’s really inspiring to me. Because I think when I do look at the few relationships I’ve had, thinking when we’ve had fights. And it’s like, well, did we ever have fights? Like I didn’t have fights like when you watch, I don’t know, Marriage Story or whatever else, like there was no screaming.

Christina: Right.

Drew: There were tense moments. There were disagreements. I do think that approaching your partner from a place of compassion and wanting to… Because the question, right, when you have conflicts of any type is, is your goal to resolve this conflict so both or all parties are as satisfied as possible or is your goal to have conflict?

Christina: Right. Right.

Drew: Are you trying to fight or are you fighting because of these other things and you don’t want to be fighting? And I think a lot of people don’t know how to not want to be fighting.

Christina: And to win the fight, also. There’s a large dynamic of it doesn’t matter what the outcome is, as long as we have agreed that I was correct and I have won this argument.

Heather: Right.

Christina: Which is, I think, troubling. A troubling way to approach interpersonal relationships.

Heather: Absolutely. And yeah, I’m curious what y’all’s relationship is in terms of like… I am a generally conflict avoidant person and that also came into play in my relationships. Are y’all like that? Are y’all conflict avoidant or are you…

Christina: My Mercury is in cancer and so is my Mars. So I am what Chani Nicholas calls “a warrior waterlogged.” That’s right. You heard it here, folks. Passive aggressive as hell. It’s hot. It sucks. It is something that I’m trying to be better at because I have an absolute tendency to sulk and be an absolute cunt and not express why I am acting that way. Which is fun for no one, turns out. So that’s not fun for me. Drew, like you’re good at—

Drew: Well. Okay. So I think what I struggle with with conflict is that oftentimes I will be like, well, I’ll do what I was just suggesting other people do too much, where I’ll be like, well, I don’t want to be fighting. And so this isn’t that big of a deal, so I’ll just let it go. And I think what I’ve had to learn is to be more honest with myself about when I’m actually letting it go versus when I’m building resentments. So I guess it is sort of conflict averse because I am like… I mean with big things, I’ll talk about them. I’m not afraid of conflict when it comes to things that I think really matter. And I think I’ve had to accept the fact that certain things that I’m like, “This is so stupid. Why do I care about it?” Part of that sentence, that question I just asked myself, was “I care about it.” I might not know why, but I’ve learned that saying to friends or roommates or a partner or whatever that like, even to say, “This is stupid, but I’m having a feeling about this” is better than just in my own head saying, “this is stupid, don’t have a feeling about it,” because I am. And so often I’ll say that and the other person will validate it or be like, yeah, that’s stupid. But yeah, I won’t do that thing. Or I get why you feel that way. Or we just talk about it. And even sometimes saying it out loud, the “stupidity” of it, becomes more emotional and not just intellectual. Because I think I can think myself out of a lot of things, but that doesn’t mean that I’m not still a person with feelings. So I think I’ve had to work on getting to a place—

Christina: No, it does. Sorry, it does. I just wanted to jump in.

Drew: Oh, okay. Cool, yeah. Totally.

Christina: You can logic yourself out of a feeling.

Drew: Great. Good to know. Good to know.

Christina: I am crushing it.

Drew: But yeah. So I don’t know. I think that’s something that I had to learn and I think something that… I think it’s very possible to be in a long-term relationship and grow with the other person and change, obviously. I also think sometimes, especially thinking about — I started my one relationship when I was 18, I started the other relationship when I was 21. There were certain patterns that were established in those relationships that simply couldn’t change, that were just too challenging for the two of us to get out of the patterns that we had built. And so I think after my last relationship, I was very hyper conscious about the future relationships that I was getting into. Or even just the flings I was getting into and being like, is this doing this to me? Is this doing that to me? And being really scared of — honestly having commitment issues for the first time in my life. Because before transitioning all I wanted was commitment because I had this idea that if I met the right person, then I wouldn’t have my gender feelings. And so I was like, I just need to find my soulmate. I need to find my soulmate. I need to find my soulmate.

Heather: That’s all.

Christina: Nothing huge!

Drew: No, but I mean, it was so… What a terrible way to date, especially as a cis straight guy who everyone thinks is gay. And so then I, in leaving my last relationship and then I have the period of time where I was just single and wanting to be single and enjoy it. And then once I got to a place where I was like, oh, I think I am ready for another relationship, I was so scared of, I don’t want to be in a relationship where I feel like I’m being controlled or where I don’t have as much time for my work or I lose track of myself or I give too much to the person or all these traps that I fell into and previous relationships. And I think I’ve just learned that it is possible to start new relationships from a place of communicating those fears.

Christina: Yeah.

Drew: And instead of either just committing or not committing, being like, I really enjoy talking to you. Here are my fears. And obviously sometimes our community can process too much, so be spare. Please know your strengths and weaknesses and know that if you are someone who needs to be doing that more or needs to be doing that less, I’m also talking about if you are genuinely getting into a relationship with someone, not like you went on two dates with someone and you want to talk to them about your fears, please don’t do that. Or do it if you want to, I guess, just not to me.

Christina: And if they want to hear them, you know?

Drew: Yeah. You know, everyone’s different. But I think for myself of entering into this new thing, being like, wow, I just, anytime I’m having doubts or fears, I say things out loud in a way that’s kind and in a way that’s… I mean, I wouldn’t say anything not kind, because I don’t have anything not kind to say at the current moment. But just communicating it and then afterwards I’m like, wait, do I feel better after saying how I feel? Instead of in the past feeling this intense, emotional, what my old therapist used to call vulnerability hangovers. And I was like, oh, I’m not feeling that as much because instead of two years into a relationship being like, I think I need to be vulnerable more. Oh, I’m saying these things in a way that I never have with this person who I live with. Instead, it’s like, oh, I’m creating a new language of this relationship. And in that new language of this new relationship, vulnerability is loud and it’s thrilling. And now I don’t really have doubts. All those doubts and fears and commitment issues have just sort of gone away because I know that it’s safe for me to express it. It’s something about because it’s safe to express, they don’t exist anymore.

Christina: This sounds like fanfiction to me, but go on.

Heather: What’s really funny… You two are really funny in this way. It’s that you express yourself in this way where you’re like, oh, this might be a stupid thing or I don’t know if I could say this out loud. Except for the thing is that you are creating a podcast that so many people are relating to and listening to. And everything that you say that you’re like, this might be this or this might be that, they’re like, yes, I feel that! I feel that! Yes, I feel that! And it’s like you are creating a space for everybody else to be able to have comfort with these emotions that you are sitting with in a way that’s not comfortable for you, when they’re obviously universal. And that it does help to say that stuff out loud because being afraid in the dark is the worst time to be afraid. Being afraid alone is the worst time to be afraid. And when you can just give voice to that stuff, it comforts you. And you both are comforting so many other people. I just wish that would bounce back at you. Maybe you should listen to your own podcast more and then your fears would let go.

Drew: Wow. I mean, we have to, to give notes and stuff.

Christina: Yeah, we’re listening for edits, though.

Heather: Right. Right.

Christina: I feel like it’s not the same as taking it in maybe.

Drew: I do think that it has been really… I don’t know. It’s interesting. Because there are ways in which both this podcast and writing about relationships on the internet and those sorts of things, being very public about my personal life in a controlled, specific way.

Heather: Sure.

Drew: I don’t know. There are ways that it has been really helpful for me. It has validated certain things where I felt alone in certain feelings and then been like, oh… I mean, something I think about a lot is if Christina and I need to frame it in a way that is self-deprecating, the way to frame it is, we’re not that special. That is the way of doing it in a way that’s negative, which is there’s always someone—

Christina: How dare you.

Drew: Lots of people. Sorry, Christina, you’re special. You know what it is? You are special, but your insecurities are not what makes you special.

Christina: That’s fair. I’ll take that.

Drew: Your doubts, your fears, those things are universal. What makes you special is all the other things. And so I think that has been something that’s been really thrilling to see. And with Autostraddle readership and listenership of people being like, this is so comforting, this is so validating and being like, oh, wow, that’s valid.

Christina: It’s a two way street.

Heather: It is.

Christina: It’s a two way street. It’s really lovely.

Heather: Yeah, your insecurities don’t make you special. But the fact that you’re willing to share your insecurities in a way that allows other people to feel less insecure, I think that’s actually very special. It’s really rare.

Drew: Thank you.

Christina: I would like to let everybody know that, unfortunately, Heather is now a required member of this podcast. I actually just need just this energy. I just need this little boost every day of my life. So..

Heather: I’ll come on and do the game show cheering.

Christina: Yeah! We just need a cheering section.

Heather: Yeah, yeah.

Christina: Yeah. So Heather, do you have a takeaway from your 11 years of being in a charming relationship?

Heather: Big takeaway? I think the best thing that you can do in a relationship, the most important thing you can do in a relationship, is to always play along with the other person’s bits. Stacy and I never leave each other hanging on the bits. Whatever it is, whatever the joke is, whatever the song is, whatever the dance is, the other person always picks it up.

Christina: That’s actually really beautiful. Bits are so important.

Heather: They’re so important. I think that, Drew, one of your great gifts in writing is that sort of, I’ve told you this before, the banter. The chemistry, the banter of the dialogue. And I think that is so important in connecting to someone in the beginning, but we lose that so often in relationships. And I think it’s so important to keep that thing that you start doing at the beginning. I think it’s important to just deepen it. And I think one of the things that I said in my wedding vows that I think is so important is that, what I want to build with Stacy is a language of inside jokes that lasts a lifetime and that no one else will ever understand. And I think that our bits started 11 years ago and we’re still doing so many of the same bits. They’ve just grown and become something else. And I just think it’s, I think just those little things are the most fun and the most important. And there’s not a day that goes by that we are not, truly — even though we’ve been stuck in this house together two years now working from home, side by side, same table — when we’re not really making each other heartily laugh out loud with our little, little jokes.

Christina: I love that. I love more jokes for all.

Heather: Yes.

Christina: That’s the dream.

Drew: Yeah, it’s like, no lesbian bit death.

Heather: No lesbian bit death. Exactly.

Christina: I have to go. That just killed me.

Drew: Christina is ending the podcast because of that pun.

Christina: Because of that bit, I simply have to go. But you know, Drew, we can always identify as women of bit experience and I think that’s really beautiful for us.

Drew: Yes.

Christina: So it’s time for Crush Corner, isn’t it?

Drew: Yes, it is.

Christina: Heather came locked and loaded with a crush. Who you got for us?

Heather: It is Serena Williams.

Christina: Oh 10, 10.

Heather: Oh, man. Everything she does. And I just, I don’t know when this podcast will air, but in real life, the Met Gala was last… Gala, gala? What do you say, gala?

Drew: It can be gay.

Christina: Gay-la. Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Heather: It was last night and, gosh, she’s just perfect. She is just so sexy and so beautiful and stunning and smart and funny and athletic and everything she does is perfect to me. And I don’t know, I just follow all her Instagrams. She has an Instagram, her daughter has an Instagram. She has an Instagram for her daughter’s weird doll. And I said this earlier, but every time she’s out with her husband, he looks so shocked that he’s married to Serena Williams.

Christina: He does. He has extreme wife-guy energy, in a very charming way.

Heather: Absolutely. And I think that’s just what I feel like about her always. Anytime I can love on Serena is a good day for me.

Christina: Wow. That’s really beautiful. I love that. Drew, who you got?

Drew: Okay. So the new season of Sex Education is, well, it will be out when this comes out and I had screeners so it’s out for me right now. And I couldn’t pick one person. My crush is the whole cast. And also maybe the whole writing staff and directing staff. I love it so much.

Christina: It’s a really good season.

Drew: It’s so good. It’s one of my favorite seasons of television that’s ever been made, which, I’m a very hyperbolic person, so take that with what you take it with. But I just, I love the cast so much and they’re just so like… They’re all so charming. And every year, new cast members get added and they fit in so well. It’s like they just have somewhere where they have all these charming British people and they’re just all getting onto the show. And I just, I love them all so much. And I think I’ve said that I think my personality is like — if you just like take all the Sex Education characters — I realize that a few episodes ago, or maybe it was the last episode, that I said that my personality was the two main characters of Princess Cyd. So basically what we’ve learned is that I go into media looking to see my personality split among a bunch of people.

Christina: Yes.

Drew: But there’s so much about so many different… I think what it is showing about that show is that all of the characters are so well developed and so well performed that they all feel real. And regardless of how different I am from those characters, because of that reality that’s felt, I see things in them that connect to me just on a basic sort of human level. And so that is why I’m like, oh, wow, I relate to all of you. And that’s what good writing and good acting is called. So I guess my crush of the week is the show Sex Education. But I also, it’s a very attractive cast as well. I mean, come on.

Christina: A real banger of a cast. 10 out of 10, I’d say on that one. For my crush, I’m going platonic again. And I’m saying Lil Nas X because I personally feel every time he does something incredible, which is every time he logs onto twitter.com the website, or creates a TikTok, or creates music, or goes to an event, I just feel like that is my baby cousin and I feel so proud of him every time he does something. And his People pregnancy photo shoot that was about his album is so brilliant. And it was a People exclusive, which is so funny that People was like, yeah, absolutely. We’re going to pay for the exclusive rights to this made up concept. It’s just like, he’s so brilliant. He is truly a child of the internet who has learned how to use his powers for good and delight, as opposed to making me roll my eyes and make me exhausted. And I just am so proud of him. I can’t wait till the album comes out. And I just feel like I know him and I don’t at all know him in any way. We are not related, but he is my cousin. So do with that what you will.

Heather: Love it.

Christina: That is my crush.

Heather: I love it.

Drew: I love it.

Christina: Absolutely.

Drew: Well, Heather, can you tell the people where they can find you?

Heather: You can find me on autostraddle.com all the time, and on Twitter @theheatherhogan, and that’s the best place to find me and my cats.

Christina: I was going to say, there’s always cat content.

Heather: Yeah. I feel like I’m most famous for cats and making men cry. And that’s what you can find at twitter.com.

Christina: It’s an incredible tagline.

Drew: And so the last thing that we want to ask, as we always do, because we love to get some clarity, was: was this conversation a date?

Christina: Was it? I don’t know. I feel like probably no, because we just heard a really long story about a really charming 11 year long relationship.

Drew: Can you imagine? Can you imagine if you went on a date and someone did that? Heather still hasn’t answered, but can you imagine?

Heather: This is what it’s like to go on a date with me. So, yes. I feel like this was probably a date.

Drew: You just, you talk—

Christina: I love that.

Drew: Someone’s like, I thought we were going on a date. And you’re like, no, I’m just going to talk about my wife.

Heather: Yes. That’s exactly what it’s like. And also just to encourage — I just want to encourage you because I love you guys and I think you’re so wonderful. And that’s what it’s like to be on a date with me. To be like, no, I would just want to push this back at you and tell you, I think you’re great. And I loved talking to you and I love listening to you. And I think you are both going major places in the world, and I’m just glad to be a part of this small little piece of it.

Drew: Thank you, Heather.

Christina: I did not pencil in a therapy appointment today, so this was a fun surprise.

Heather: So this was a date!

Christina: So that is what a date is! Thank you so much.

Drew: Christina, that was your first mistake because our podcast episodes are always a therapy session for you.

Christina: That’s true.

Drew: Thank you so much for listening to Wait, Is This a Date? You can find us on Twitter and Instagram @waitisthisadate and you can also email us at waitisthisadate@gmail.com.

Drew: And you can find me on Twitter, Instagram, and TikTok @draw_gregory. And you can find Autostraddle on all social medias @autostraddle.

Christina: And go visit autostraddle.com because that’s the reason we’re all here today.

Drew: Thank you all so much and see you next week.

Christina: Yeah. We’ll absolutely see you next week, and we can’t wait.

Drew: Yeah, and maybe next week will be a date.

Christina: Hey, maybe it will be. Wilder things have happened.

Christina: The gayest thing about this podcast is that the outro is a boundary.

Drew, in a voice memo: I was 16 when the movie Blue Valentine came out and I became obsessed with it. And I’d show it to people and they’d be like, this is really depressing. And I’d be like, oh my God, no, it’s not depressing. The whole point of the movie is that it’s happy because, yeah, it’s miserable and they’re fighting and they break up. But at the same time, we’re seeing them fall in love. And the point is that even when things end, they were good at one point. I of course had not been in a relationship while I was giving these speeches about long-term relationships and marriage. But now I have been in relationships and you know what, I think 16 year old me was right.

“To L and Back” Generation Q Podcast Episode 207: Light

It’s another beautiful week in Los Angeles and you know what that means! Another big poker game, because that’s what lesbians do for fun here! This particular game is a fundraiser for MS that Tess and Shane seem to have organized in one calendar day, but logistics like that won’t stop this from being the new social event of the season. Until, of course, next week when it will be replaced by the launch party for Alice’s book.

But for now, we’ve got Alice and Nat hooking up (again) then breaking up (again), Sophie and Finley having sex on set (again), and Bette being mean to Carrie (again, but worse this time!). Honestly, a lot of events transpire in this episode that we didn’t love, including drunk driving! But in more wholesome news, Jordi asks Angie to prom while dancing in a fountain and SO MANY people kiss in the rain that we have to consider whether they WANT their hair to get frizzy.

SHOW NOTES

Riese’s recap of the episode
Riese, Drew and my Letterboxd accounts where we all embark upon wild movie-watching projects
Riese is watching her way through all of Kristen Stewart’s filmography, which includes Into the Wild, Lizzie, and Safety of Objects
Go Fish is of course on the 200 Best Lesbian Movies of All Time list, at #103
The book with the line “you can’t get milk from the hardware store” was Milk Fed, which I found very exhausting to read but was reviewed on Autostraddle here!
We didn’t talk about The Flight Attendant on AS, but we did a fun roundtable about The White Lotus and Drew reviewed the second season of Feel Good when it premiered this year!

Drew: Hi, I’m Drew.

Analyssa: And I’m Analyssa.

Riese: And I am Riese.

Drew: And this is:

Drew, Analyssa, and Riese: To L and Back: Generation Q edition.

Drew: We’re still together.

Riese: Yeah. We’re in the same room, so that means we say the whole thing together. And then we also say a lot of other things at the same time. And we’re sorry.

Analyssa: We’re sorry about that.

Drew: Yeah. We’re very excited to be around each other. And so if there’s a little bit of what we call in the podcasting business cross-talk. Sorry, but—

Analyssa: We’re trying not to.

Riese: I just did it.

Drew: You just did. It’s okay. It’s okay. It’s okay. I think it’s okay that we are excited to be here with each other and to talk about this show where people are constantly talking over each other.

Analyssa: So true. What if we just sat here and all just took turns and waited, that would not be fun either. So we’ll figure it out. We’re just so excited to be in each other’s presence.

Riese: And Carol’s.

Analyssa: And Carol’s most of all.

Drew: Carol is touching my thigh right now. This is Gen Q 207, “Light,” directed by Rose Troche. If you don’t know who that is, worked on the original series, directed Go Fish, a lesbian classic that I think is underrated among contemporary audiences.

Riese: Safety of Objects.

Drew: Safety of Objects.

Riese: Oh, were you looking at me as a contemporary audience who underrates Go Fish?

Drew: Oh, that wasn’t pointed. I feel like a lot of people at Autostraddle are like, “Oh, Go Fish sucks.”

Riese: Including me.

Drew: Yeah, but I like it.

Riese: I might be the root.

Drew: But that’s okay. We can’t all love everything, but Rose Troche is a legend.

Riese: Yes. She is a legend.

Drew: And it’s exciting to see her directing an episode of this.

Riese: Also, if you haven’t seen The Safety of Objects, you should, I was going to say, go see it. And I’m like, I don’t know, find the DVD?

Analyssa: Watch it online somewhere.

Riese: It’s really good. Kristen Stewart’s in it.

Analyssa: Actually. I’m so glad that you brought that up, because Riese has watched recently — I follow Riese on Letterboxd.

Drew: I’ve been observing this as well.

Analyssa: Quick plug: Follow all three of us on Letterboxd because we’re fun.

Riese: Yeah, I’m trying, I’m doing it.

Analyssa: Riese is watching all of Kristen Stewart’s movies.

Riese: In order.

Analyssa: In order, which has led to me adding a lot of random movies that Kristen Stewart, I’m sure, is in for 15 minutes to my Letterboxd watch list. But weirdly I’ve been wanting to do this. I don’t know if you follow my Letterboxd as closely as I follow yours, but you know I’m doing this director project.

Riese: I actually literally just follow you guys and Shelly, so I can keep pretty close tabs on everyone.

Analyssa: So I’m doing this director project where I watch movies from iconic directors. And I’ve been thinking that if I do another iteration of this, actresses would be a very fun one. Kristen Stewart is one that I, for gay personal reasons, would do. And so then you were doing this and I’m inspired by you and your commitment.

Riese: That’s so wonderful. I mean, some of them I’ve watched out of order, like Gretchen I watched Lizzie the other night, which I hadn’t already seen. But when I’m alone, I’m doing it in order. And I will say that I’ve watched some unfortunate films. Have you seen Into the Wild?

Drew: Yes. I have.

Analyssa: Riese hated Into the Wild. Her eyeballs are about to pop out.

Riese: Kristen Stewart’s early films, she is somehow heterosexual and they always put her in skirts that go down to here and Converse.

Analyssa: They do costume — I feel that with Elliot Page too, like—

Riese: That was a similar, that was a similar costuming strategy.

Analyssa: There’s always something going on there where you look and you’re… I was obsessed with them. Me, Analyssa, was obsessed with them as a high schooler before I knew I was queer at all. And now that makes sense to me. You didn’t tell us who wrote this episode, did you?

Drew: Yes, this episode is written by Maisha Closson, who wrote this season’s “Luck be a Lady” and has written on a bunch of television. Should we get in?

Riese: I was just thinking how much I hated Into the Wild. We open in heaven.

Drew: Sex, sex, sex!

Analyssa: We open in Riese’s favorite way to open any episode. Sophie and Finley are fucking all over the house, engaging in the time honored tradition of new relationship, we won’t leave this home. In fact, they haven’t eaten or drank water.

Riese: Yeah, which I didn’t understand, really you haven’t drank water? I have to drink water every three minutes.

Drew: Yeah. Drink water. Also you can make it, if you need to make it sexy, involve water in your sex.

Riese: Last week we spoke about ice, and now, you know — and the sort of the — the beginning of a relationship having sex all the time is elevated by the fact that they live in the same house. So there’s nothing stopping them from just going bananas.

Drew: And Finley’s unemployed.

Riese: And Finley’s — just a soccer — no Finley has two jobs?

Drew: Oh right. Sorry. Finley acts like she’s unemployed. Correction.

Analyssa: They should just put one glass of water next to the bed and be reaching over.

Riese: Or a water bottle.

Drew: At least a Mason jar full of water for the two of them.

Riese: No notes.

Analyssa: Yeah. No notes. We did it. Great. They’re doing it. They love it.

Riese: They’re having a nice time. I’m so happy they’re together. I hope that nothing goes wrong.

Drew: I’m sure nothing will.

Riese: So speaking of horny people, we go to a little brunch date starring Alice and Bette. But it’s not just Alice and Bette at the restaurant.

Drew: It’s Nat and Gigi.

Bette: Fuck, they’re both here. That is so gay.

Drew: They are also there. So first Bette says to Alice that she seems happy. And again, we’re getting that Bette Porter soft bi-phobia, but she’s being a supportive friend, so whatever. And Bette says that the things are over with Gigi and is like, “It’s fine. She’s playing head games with someone else already.” When it’s like, what head games, what? This is the episode where I turned.

Riese: Bette Porter head games. Like, what? Pot, kettle.

Analyssa: Bette “head games” Porter over here is like “Gigi’s off playing head games?” What? Again, last week when we were like, everyone in this friend group thought Jodi was so weird for just wanting to know what is going on, Bette thinks that Gigi is playing head games by going, “Do you want to talk about your feelings?”

Riese: Right. Gigi liked Bette and wanted to continue to see her. That’s not a head game.

Drew: No, it’s the opposite.

Riese: That’s just life.

Analyssa: That’s how it goes sometimes.

Drew: I mean, it might be a different kind of head game if she had played her cards better, but that’s not what she means. This season is really — it’s fascinating to spend so many years obsessed with Bette Porter, and then to just, I don’t know if it’s the season or if it’s like something in me, but I’m like, “It’s ending.” My love of Bette Porter is sort of over, I’m really finding it hard to be… this episode’s rough.

Riese: In the comments on the recap last week, one of the commentaries noted that something feels different about this season. It feels like maybe she’s punching down. And I think that might be it, because even her and Jodi were equals, whether Bette fucked — was the one who messed with Jodi, but they were equals. But the way she goes after Carrie and the way she treats Gigi, and — I mean her and Gigi are equals, but not in this relationship.

Analyssa: That is interesting. I haven’t thought about that. You know what though? Alice looks great.

Drew: Alice does look great.

Analyssa: Anyway, Bette Porter would have me believe that’s because she’s fucking Tom, I guess.

Drew: Bette takes a call and Alice goes to say hi to Nat and Nat’s hair looks amazing, worth noting.

Riese: Luscious.

Drew: It’s just wonderful. My perception of this was, “Oh, this is awkward.” But that wasn’t their perception of it because before you know it they’re fucking in Nat’s car.

Analyssa: With Alice through the sunroof.

Riese: Yeah. It’s funny.

Analyssa: Bouncing vigorously. Do we think… not to get graphic.

Drew: Let’s get graphic.

Analyssa: On a hand? It just was so vigorous, the balancing.

Riese: Yeah. I think on a hand.

Drew: I don’t know. I mean, good for her.

Riese: Do you think Nat was packing?

Drew: Maybe.

Analyssa: At brunch to talk about logistics with Gigi?

Drew: She loves public sex. You never know when you’re going to need it.

Riese: That’s true. I mean, I don’t know if they — do you think that they really thought about it?

Analyssa: No.

Drew: I don’t know because if there’s one thing I trust Gen Q on, it’s that they think through their sex scenes. So, I don’t know. But whatever it is, it depends how much you are a Talice shipper, but I don’t know. It’s fun.

Analyssa: They seem to be having fun. The physical comedy, we’ve talked about how funny Leisha Hailey is, and her popping through the sunroof is very good. Honestly, Drew and I talked through the beginning of this next scene. So what is Shane talking to Tess about?

Riese: They’ve organized overnight, as you do on television, a giant function for the MS society.

Drew: That explains so much of the later stuff that we were a little bit confused about.

Riese: It is some sort of poker thing, obviously. And Tess is so excited she’s going to cry. And then she goes to see her anonymous friends in the community center because that’s where her AA meeting is. And then Shane spots Carrie walking in and thinks—

Drew: Yeah. Got all that.

Analyssa: We sort of were debriefing the Nat and Alice thing and missed what the event focus was. I sensed that there was an event and then we saw, I’m going inside and there’s Carrie.

Drew: Yeah. Now that Annalysa and I live together, it’s a little bit more the energy of an L Word watch party, as opposed to the like, we’re scholars, pausing the episode over and over again to get every little detail, which is fun for us. But if we mess anything up, you know where to find us. Speaking of writing things down, Angie’s writing questions to ask Marcus and Jordi is being really weird and it’s not her character. And I know they’re doing a thing and we’ll get—

Riese: I mean, what’s her character?

Drew: I don’t know, her character was a supportive high school girlfriend. That was all we knew about her, was that she liked Angie and was present and cool. And then, I don’t know. I just, I’m still annoyed about this. Even though she’s not even a canonically trans character. So I’m just wanting these cute teen lesbians to be cute, which I know we’ll get there. We’ve all watched the episode. But at this point I was like, why is Jordi being so… I get teenagers are teenagers.

Riese: It’s not like we ever find out the answer to that.

Drew: No, not really. It’s sort of—

Analyssa: They tried to explain it.

Drew: But I don’t know. I don’t enjoy this, but that’s what’s happening in this scene.

Analyssa: Yeah. She also is… we don’t need to get too deep into this, but she just kind of walks out also. She’s like, “Alright, see you later.”

Drew: It’s weird.

Riese: Speaking of Porters.

Analyssa:Nice.

Riese: We go and we finally find out — which I have now looked up on the internet — that a gallery is sort of like an agent. So being represented by a gallery, it means they sell your work and they take a cut and they have access to more artists. And they can show you at their gallery, but they can also book you a show at a museum.

Drew: I see. So she was like, “If you can get me a museum show, I will sign with the evil monster.”

Riese: Yeah. And so she did with her ye old CAC.

Drew: CAC.

Analyssa: Back to the CAC.

Riese: Back to the CAC.

Drew: She says that CAC is doing a show around work about Black Lives Matter and that Pippa could be the center of it. And I just was interested because the stance the show has taken on tokenization being the worst thing that can happen to someone with a marginalized identity this season, that’s sort of been their stance. It was interesting to me that this wasn’t the time that it came up, because Pippa feels like the character — of Micah, Pippa, Bette — Pippa feels like the character who would be like, “This is tokenizing me,” like, “Yes, this is what my work is about, but I don’t want it to be…”

Riese: Well, it’s more like pigeonholing than tokenizing.

Analyssa: Yeah. “I don’t want to just be this kind of artist” or they think that because — but it seems like—

Drew: She’s just excited to have this museum show now. And I don’t know. I know we have to move the story along, but it just was interesting to me because I was like, “Oh, I feel like this character would have…” I was expecting her to have something to say about that, but maybe she, unlike Micah and Bette, realizes that talking about and representing your identity isn’t actually the worst thing in the world.

Analyssa: Well, and also Bette says later that — which I think was really interesting to hear from Bette — that Pippa explores her queerness and Blackness in ways that Bette says she has only just started to do, which I was like, “That’s actually interesting.” So I also wonder if Pippa, because Pippa, per Bette, is doing that in her art that she’s like, “That’s an okay place to show my kind of thing.” Pippa is also saying that she is sort of nervous about doing a show because the art world chewed her up and spit her out when she was younger. And she’s afraid to get sort of lost in that validation need again, and what it means about her. All the things that I think are interesting about artists. What’s more interesting is that Pippa casually revealed she has a son, which for those of you following along at home means that she does, in fact—

Riese: Check all of Bette’s boxes.

Analyssa: All of Bette’s boxes. So true.

Drew: Yes. These are Bette’s boxes now.

Analyssa: Pippa is going to do the show. She’s excited. We’re signed on, this probably means good things for them.

Riese: Yeah. And then Bette calls someone to be excited about it. And then Carrie calls her and she takes the call. Yes. Speaking of talk show hosts.

Analyssa: Oh yeah, because of Carrie.

Riese: Yeah, because Carrie’s a talk show host. You guys know what I mean. Over at The Alice Show, it’s time to watch Sophie’s segment. It’s airing right now on the video screen of the show.

Analyssa: I don’t understand how this talk show works, but whatever. Okay.

Riese: I love the idea of all these heterosexuals sitting there wanting to see this cute elderly, lesbian love story.

Analyssa: It’s like families who are on vacation to LA and have booked tickets the way that you do for The Ellen Show.

Drew: This is viral content!

Riese: They’re like, “Oh my God! We love love!”

Analyssa: They wanted to see Alice in a hamster ball. And then they see these sweet, sweet lesbians. And they’re like, “Yeah, amazing!”

Riese: “More!”

Drew: But then Finley comes in from reffing kids’ soccer to support Sophie.

Riese: She’s very excited for her.

Drew: Can I say something that’s going to bother you, Riese?

Riese: Uh-huh (affirmative).

Drew: So the ways in which Finley is annoying, I’m aware that by the end of this episode, now I really feel bad saying this, but at this point in the episode, I was like, “Finley, when she’s getting what she wants, when she’s not a sad puppy, I find her obnoxious,” where I was like, look that’s maybe my own shit to work through as far as the type that Finley is, where I just feel she just sort of stumbles through life and everything just sort of works out for her. And when things weren’t working out for her, Jacqueline Toboni is a really good actor, and I felt a lot for the character and the character’s well-written. So but then at this point I just was a little bit like, I don’t know, she was annoying me in this scene and annoying me sort of throughout this episode a little bit. But then… you know.

Riese: I thought this scene was really sweet.

Drew: Okay. And that’s great.

Analyssa: I’m somewhere between the two of you, which is to say, I thought the scene was really sweet and I love that she showed up to support Sophie. We’re in a public space and she’s changing out of her referee outfit. Weird. And then of course, for old time’s sake, because they love to fuck in this room, they start kissing and I was like—

Riese: I don’t know if it’s Finley’s fault though.

Analyssa: No, it’s definitely not.

Riese: It’s a mutual…

Drew: Sure.

Analyssa: For sure. The having sex is actually I think more on Sophie to be like, “I’m at my place of work. I’m wearing a blazer. We’re not going to do this right now.” But as aforementioned, they’re in that early, we simply can’t… the only air we need to breathe is at the back of each other’s throats kind of moment. So they start hooking up and it turns out that there’s an exec from the network, that’s what I assume, there to watch the show today. And he loves the segment so much that he tells Alice, and Alice is like, famously as bosses on talk show hosts are want to do, gives credit to Sophie, good for her, takes them back to the green room of sex again. And luckily Alice is the only person who sees it. I was really nervous.

Riese: Me too, because I don’t care for that kind of little device. So I was like, “Really, guys? This is what you’re going to do?”

Analyssa: But also I thought, we know that something, and we’ll know even more later, that something that Sophie’s grappling with is that Finley is not mature or professional or whatever it is that she’s judging on. And I saw in my mind’s eye, a little telescope came out of my brain and I could see them in the next 30 minutes being like, it’s actually Finley’s fault that Sophie got caught by her boss fucking. And I was already mad about that. And luckily that’s not what happens. But anyway, you know who else saw someone fucking today? It’s Gigi, Gigi saw Nat and Alice having sex in the car, and Alice’s little blonde head popping in and out of the sunroof. And she’s telling that to Dani, while they’re hanging out midday, I don’t know what’s going on here, but that’s fine.

Riese: They love to put Dani at a food truck.

Analyssa: Dani does love a food truck. Gigi asked if they should talk about the other night and Dani is kind of hesitant and then confesses that she thinks it’s a little bit shitty that Gigi sprung her feelings on her during a low point.

Gigi: So we’re going to talk about the other night?
Dani: I was hoping to just skip over it, actually.
Gigi: Oh, okay. She’s a “lock it in the closet and throw away the key” type. My favorite.
Dani: No, I just—
Gigi: You don’t feel the same way, that’s okay. I’m a big girl. I can handle it.
Dani: No, I just thought it was kind of shitty actually.
Gigi: Me telling you I have feelings for you is shitty?
Dani: Well, I had a fucking horrible night, to see the two of them like that, and then you made me feel good, but then I needed a friend.

Riese: But who wouldn’t want, when they were at a low point, for Gigi to tell you that she has feelings about you?

Drew: Yes. But also, I really liked this because—

Riese: It does show that Dani speaks her mind.

Drew: Okay. This is a really hot take, coming this direction of this microphone.

Analyssa: Everyone get ready.

Drew: I think Dani, this season, is my favorite character? This season. Last season, she was maybe my least favorite character. I love her character this season. I relate to her a lot when I didn’t relate to her at all last season. And this season, there’s a lot of things that I really… I think, I don’t know. I really, really like her character and what they’re doing with their character. I mean, I loved the ending of the last episode, as you remember from my intense enthusiasm. But I do think that, yeah, it was a little bit… if Gigi’s for real and really wants a real relationship here with Dani, bringing up those feelings when the person is in crisis, isn’t the most—

Riese: They were talking about ice cream, competitive ice cream eating.

Analyssa: They were kind of on a date at that point.

Riese: Yeah. The past was in the past.

Drew: That was a pretty intense — I don’t know. I’m just saying, I don’t think it was bad. I don’t think Gigi’s abusive. I just think that Dani being like, “I feel complicated because of these circumstances” and then talking it out and then they talked. This is what happens when characters actually talk, when people talk, look, queer people talk. And Gigi’s like, “You should talk to Bette. If, what actually is, is that you feel like — talk to Bette.” It’s great. I love it.

Riese: Dani is — she’s just so wide-eyed and she doesn’t know what she is. She’s like—

Dani: I would never want someone to feel the way I did when Sophie—
Gigi: I don’t think that had very strong feelings for me.
Dani: I find that hard to believe.

Riese: It’s so awkward for Gigi because she obviously wants to be like, “No. I mean, she really didn’t like me.”

Analyssa: She really didn’t, and also it’s such a strong indicator that Dani has really strong feelings for Gigi, because—

Drew: I thought that was so cute.

Analyssa: I don’t know. I thought it was very sweet.

Drew: It’s such a thing where you’re like, when you fall in love with someone, and you hear all their stories and you’re like, “Yeah, that person broke your heart? Dumped you? What? You’re clearly the best person who’s ever walked on this planet.” It’s very sweet.

Riese: Speaking of people who have had sex, we go back to The Alice Show where Alice is like, “You motherfuckers, what the fuck.”

Analyssa: But do you like that Alice is one of the 35 Sinley shippers in the world?

Riese: I do! She said, “I love you guys together.” Yeah. She’s number 35! And Finley’s like, “Could it just be my fault because I don’t work here anymore?” But that’s not how it works. It doesn’t matter whose fault it is. You guys shouldn’t… and she’s like, “What is it about that room?” Anyway. It was funny and cute.

Alice: Febreze the shit out of that couch before you leave.
Sophie: Absolutely.
Finley: Copy. Febreezing.

Analyssa: I like this Alice-Sophie relationship, friendship. I think it’s fun.

Riese: I think so too.

Drew: I like it too. Speaking of emotional processing, Angie tells Kayla that Jordi’s preoccupied with prom and that their relationship isn’t going well. And then she’s like, “Have you ever broken up with anyone?”

Riese: I’m like, Angie, at least talk to her about it first?! What are you doing, you crazy girl? What is in those smoothies, man. They love to put people under 18 drinking a goddamn smoothie on this show. Why do they just want to get a straw and pop it into a plastic cup so hard?

Analyssa: Critically, Angie is 16. So she’s never had to talk through a problem in a relationship before. She has the thing that honestly, sometimes I still have, which is like, “Oh, this doesn’t work? Guess it’s done. Guess we don’t work.” The other thing I thought was really sweet in this scene was Angie going, “Jordi just only cares about Prom.” And Kayla goes, “That seems fun. Seems like she’s having a fun time.” And I thought that was really funny. And the thing is, all of the Jordi-is-normally-supportive stuff aside, Kayla kind of makes, without trying to, a good point, which is sometimes you have people who you talk with about fun stuff. And Kayla is happy to talk about the dad stuff. And I read this book last summer, Drew already has heard this, actually once today. And it had a line in it. It’s a girl who goes to therapy and the therapist is like, “You can’t keep trying to get milk at the hardware store,” about trying to connect emotionally with your mother who refuses to do that. And I think it’s useful. It felt like, I read that line and I was like, “Have I gone to therapy?” And that’s sort of what I felt here, there is something for Angie and Jordi to discuss clearly, but also you can’t get milk from the hardware store. Just ask Kayla. That’s fine. Yeah.

Riese: Yeah. But she should expect her girlfriend to be interested in her interests.

Analyssa: 100%. And also they should have a conversation about it.

Riese: Yeah. Kayla did a great job acting. She sucked on that straw. I completely believed she was drinking her smoothie. And I was like, “Wow, good job you guys.”

Analyssa: Teen actors get smoothie cups, which are always clear. And you can see through them, adult actors sometimes get coffee cups, which are just plainly empty and a weird tool.

Riese: Ageism.

Analyssa: Yeah. Speaking of people who should talk to each other… I really don’t know what the scene started as. I didn’t like it.

Riese: It seemed like Sophie for some reason is… Finley and Sophie are perfect together because Finley just takes it. You know what I mean? Dani would be like, “No,” or really anyone. But Finley’s own self-esteem is kind of wobbling. And also I think she’s used to no one taking her seriously.

Analyssa: She kind of jokes her way into Sophie calming down about some non-existent issue. Basically Sophie is sort of like, “Can you cook?” I don’t know it just starting to—

Drew: Well, what happens is what you were saying earlier that basically Sophie decides that even though she did this thing where she was one of the two people having sex in that room, that, because she feels embarrassed, it’s Finley’s fault. And so she’s like, “You’re so immature” and it’s like, “no, Sophie, maybe you have to, I mean, yes, but also maybe you have to confront the fact that you also made this mistake and you’re also immature and, but yeah, Finley just sort of takes it, but then Finley blames her immaturity on getting kicked out at 18 and having some stunted development.

Riese: She doesn’t blame her immaturity on it. She just says she’s not as grown up as Dani, but I mean, Dani’s father gave her a… She’s now CEO of her father’s company and that’s a much different place to be coming from than Finley getting kicked out of her home in Missouri.

Drew: Totally. I feel like, I don’t… I wasn’t saying that with judgment, I was just like her not being grown up, immaturity, I guess I was like using those interchangeably, but… Which I think is a… It is a fair point. I think it’s something that a lot of queer people have to realize, is that like, whatever, sort of lost youth stunted adulthood, that queer people often have, that honestly, trans people have even more than cis queer people. I think you have to sort of realize that it’s not an excuse. It is an explanation, but it’s not necessarily an excuse and you have to work on that. And I think her self-awareness is probably a positive, as far as that’s the, it’s the first step you know, of knowing that you have to fix something, is knowing the origin and knowing that it’s a problem, but Sophie’s being very mean.

Analyssa: But… Yeah, I was going to say. I don’t know that Finley actually has something to fix in this specific situation. It’s like, I think what she’s saying is like, “Yeah, I can’t cook fancy meals because I didn’t grow up in a fancy house. I got kicked out. So my go-to meal is an oven pizza. Sorry.” That’s kind of what it felt like to me. Anyway.

Drew: Yeah.

Analyssa: They recover this, sort of, by Finley being jokey.

Riese: Right.

Analyssa: And then Sophie is like, oh, I actually was just asking you questions because I want to get to know you more.

Drew: Which is bullshit.

Analyssa: In a different way, which is not true. You were just rude to me.

Drew: Yeah.

Riese: I’m just like, this is obviously going to be a conflict for them. That was… This is the main conflict we’ve all been anticipating, Sophie is very ambitious and has her career aspirations and Finley really doesn’t have any aspirations. And it’s hard to know if that’s something that she’s done because she didn’t have any options. And so she just has been trying to paddle around or whatever. But I mean, then she eventually is like, “Just so you know, I’m down to be a stay at home baby daddy.” And I’m like, oh yikes.

Analyssa: Right after Sophie visibly tries not to make a face when Finley is like, “I don’t know, the kid’s soccer coaching thing is going well.” Sophie, I could just see this whole mask kind of fall.

Riese: Yeah, she just said it and was like… But you knew… She knew this about Finley.

Drew: She knew this about Finley, so that it’s, I mean it’s… This is… I do think there are ways in which Finley is immature and needs to grow up. But I think that Sophie’s issues with her are more just issues with who Finley just genuinely is. And if she doesn’t want to date her, she doesn’t have to date her. But plenty of people would want Finley as their goofy stay at home dad.

Analyssa: The other thing though, and then we can move on, is Sophie, I don’t think actually cares about Finley’s lack of ambition. I think she cares about how Finley’s lack of ambition is perceived by other people in her orbit.

Drew: That’s a really good point.

Analyssa: I don’t actually think she gives a shit what Finley does, except for how it looks to the people… I mean, later we see this at the party or whatever, it just kind of, it rubs me the wrong way. It’s like a focus of, it feels mean-spirited almost, rather than oh, this is just something, this is a difference in core values. It’s actually, I wish that you were more show-offable in the way that Dani was.

Drew: Right.

Analyssa: That’s not exactly what she says, but that’s what it feels like to me and I’m speaking for Anna.

Drew: Yeah, I think that’s true though. I…

Riese: I projected onto this scene when someone told me that they were down to be a stay at home baby daddy. And I was like, this is terrifying to me.

Drew: Oh yeah. It’s my nightmare, but I wouldn’t date that person.

Riese: Because I was like, you know I’ll be solely working for Autostraddle, right? Because there’s, I’m never going to be making a two income salary. You know what I mean? Like, sorry. It was a lot. It was a lot.

Drew: Yeah. I mean, but that’s, that… It’s also my nightmare.

Riese: Also, Sophie wants to be a stay at home mom.

Drew: Yeah. But, no one… They don’t want a job. No working, 2021.

Analyssa: I mean, in The L Word, they already don’t go to work that often. Speaking of work though, now we’re at the event that Drew and I didn’t know about.

Riese: The event!

Drew: Yay.

Analyssa: Woo-hoo. I love that, again, The L Word posits that poker is the only thing to do on a Saturday night and the only way to make a large amount of money.

Riese: Right.

Analyssa: They didn’t just throw a…

Riese: Party.

Analyssa: Nope.

Riese: A karaoke party.

Analyssa: A karaoke party. I was just about to say that.

Drew: Everybody loves an auction, you know.

Riese: Do a date auction. My boyfriend’s fraternity did that and I bid on…

Drew: I don’t know if we should be following what your boyfriend’s fraternity did.

Analyssa: Did you win him?

Riese: Yeah, I think because everyone was scared of me. Probably. But I mean, he was not a prize, I’ll tell you what. So…

Analyssa: Okay. So…

Drew: Oh boy.

Analyssa: We’re at the event.

Drew: Yes.

Analyssa: Once again, everyone’s in the same room for most of this episode, as with the last episode.

Drew: Yeah it’s fun. First, I really think Alice looks good. I mean, we’ve been saying Alice looks good this whole episode, but—

Riese: I didn’t like her hair.

Drew: It worked for me.

Analyssa: Drew really liked her hair.

Drew: I was really surprised that it worked for me.

Analyssa: I like that look on people. Not to brag, but that’s how I did my hair when I went to the Golden Globes party, before the world shut down, January 2020.

Riese: Right.

Analyssa: So Alice is here, I agree with Drew, looking great. And she sees Sophie and Finley and she’s like…

Alice: It’s nice to see you two dressed up! Or wearing anything really.
Finley: Oh, good one. Yeah. We deserve that.
Sophie: Well, thanks for being so cool. I was just really horrified about the whole thing.
Alice: Oh my God. I’ve done worse, first of all. But there’s a lot of network people here, so you can make nice.
Finley: Okay. That’s awesome.
Sophie: That’s good. Yeah, we’ve got it.

Analyssa: And then also, Nat is here, which means that Alice is not going to be on her best behavior. So it’s…

Riese: I think this whole interaction was really cute.

Drew: Yeah, I really liked this.

Riese: Because, like Finley and Sophie are kind of teasing them and they’re not, they’re…. It’s just funny. It’s a cute little, it was cute.

Finley: Wow. Hi. Okay. Are you, are you two…?
Alice: We just… us? We just hang out and stuff.
Sophie: Oh.
Nat: Yep. Just hanging.
Sophie: Okay.
Finley: Sounds totally believable.
Shane: Hey.
Alice: Pretty much all we do.
Shane: So glad you guys made it. Hi.
Alice: Hi.
Shane: And you made it?
Nat: Yes. Hi, good to see you.
Shane: Been a while, yeah.
Nat: Yeah. It has. Happy to be here.

Analyssa: And I thought that continued into when Shane is talking to Alice about communicating with Nat and how was it going. And Alice is like, what are you Oprah? I thought that was very funny. And then, that ball of fun keeps rolling because Bette and Pippa are here too.

Riese: Yeah. And Bette is again, has made a choice and her choices of blazer that is two ideas, in one blazer. And that is art and that is power.

Drew: She likes to Frankenstein her blazers.

Analyssa: That is power, is a patchwork blazer. Yeah.

Riese: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Analyssa: Shane and Alice embarrass Bette in front of Pippa. And they do a—

Riese: That was cute.

Drew: Yeah.

Analyssa: They do a whole little routine about how long Bette has been chasing Pippa and how bad she wanted her. And it’s not super clear if it’s about professional stuff or sexual stuff, but it’s embarrassing nonetheless, and very fun.

Drew: And then Carrie shows up. Or Carrie’s there.

Riese: Well, first Shane asks Alice if she’s ever seen Dumb and Dumber.

Analyssa: Because Alice is wearing that blue suit.

Drew: Yes.

Riese: Yeah.

Analyssa: Carrie shows up.

Riese: Right Before we get to the, all of the cringe of it. They, her and Alice have a super, super cute interaction, that is obviously intentionally meta.

Carrie: Hey!
Alice: Oh, hey Carrie.
Carrie: How are you?
Alice: Good.
Carrie: Good. You look great.
Alice: Thank you.
Carrie: I just wanted you to know, I love the show this season. It’s fantastic.
Alice: Ah, that’s really sweet.
Carrie: I mean, a lesbian talk show host?
Alice: That’s me.
Carrie: It’s unprecedented.
Alice: I know. Well, there’s Ellen.
Carrie: Yeah.
Alice: Yeah.
Carrie: Yeah.
Alice: But yeah, after that, I can’t think of anyone. It was like, road wide open.
Carrie: No, you’re like paving the way for everybody. It’s… It means a lot to a lot of people, means a lot to me.
Alice: Thank you. Have you been to a talk show?
Carrie: Never.
Alice: I can get you tickets.
Carrie: Are you kidding?
Alice: No, I could do… I mean, I could call my producer and…
Carrie: Oh, I would love it. That’s something.

Riese: It’s really funny.

Drew: Yeah.

Riese: It’s cute, because you know…

Drew: I enjoyed that.

Riese: I enjoyed that. I imagined all of them on the set being like… Aren’t you so funny and self-referential?

Drew: And then, Alice offers Carrie tickets, which, going to see tapings is such a miserable experience. That is something that you learn when you go to see tapings. But I do feel like Carrie would be the kind of person who would want to go to see a taping and might actually enjoy it.

Riese: Rosie got me tickets to go to The View and I had a great time at 6:00 AM or whenever it was.

Drew: I’m so glad you did.

Analyssa: Yeah. Something weird about tapings is that you always have to go at an insane time. You always have to sit in a very cold stage for a long time. And they’re always plastic folding chairs. Not to get super LA about it, but I hope Carrie has a fun time.

Drew: Okay. So Finley asks Sophie if she thinks Alice is a top, which was a fun little interaction. And then Sophie brings up Tom, and Finley says she was going to ask how riding the D was. It’s just like… okay.

Analyssa: The show alternating between caring a lot about if Tom is a man, and not caring at all if Tom is a man is…

Riese: I mean, I think this is a realistic thing that someone like Finley would say.

Drew: Yeah. I guess so.

Analyssa: True.

Drew: It’s like, it’s not unrealistic. I just… I don’t know. It’s one of those things that’s like, it’s not transphobic. Obviously we know that Tom is a cis man. It’s just one of those things that feels, I don’t know. I mean, it’s not something that I would ever bring up if someone said out in the world, which people say stuff like this all the time. It’s just… I don’t know.

Analyssa: What else is not a surprise, is that Finley crushes with this old white man exec.

Riese: Yeah.

Drew: Yes.

Analyssa: Yeah. I think it is such a silly thing of Sophie to be nervous about this. Obviously this is going to go well. You know what? I’ve spent a lot of time with white male execs in my day, not a lie, and you know what they love?

Riese: Baby masc lesbians?

Analyssa: Yes. But, being flattered, being played to as… They love the like, “Hey big guy,” kind of humor, which is what Finley does because she’s a baby masc lesbian. She’s like elbowing him, bro-ing out. Obviously this man thinks that’s charming and he’s kind of like, Ooh, bonus points because I’m doing it with a woman instead of with a fratty Dartmouth dude, you know?

Riese: Yeah. Like a cool lesbian thinks that… Yeah. And also I think that with Finley’s backstory, she’s had to kind of charm her way into a lot of things because she hasn’t had money or resources. So it was totally predictable that she’s probably good with all different types of people.

Drew: Yeah.

Analyssa: Yeah.

Riese: And then… So Shane spots Carrie having a drink at the bar and goes over to talk to her because she had seen her walking into the AA meeting. And Carrie says that it wasn’t… She was going to the OA, like Overeaters Anonymous meeting. I don’t know if we’re supposed to believe her or not.

Analyssa: Oh, interesting.

Drew: I just did believe her, but then I, but then as the episode went on, I wondered if we weren’t supposed to believe her.

Riese: Right. Like in the moment when we were watching it, we were like, oh, oh okay. So yeah, she went… But then later in the episode I was like, were we not supposed to believe her? I couldn’t tell.

Analyssa: Interesting.

Drew: Yeah. I mean, what was interesting about this is that whether it is overeating or alcohol, she says that being around Bette and this group of people is really triggering for her. And that, if Bette just gave her a chance, she thinks that she might like her and it brings up all this stuff. And it is interesting to see. It is a little bit like the lobster episode of the original L Word, of seeing the unspoken fact that The L Word is populated by this very specific type of person who is, sort of a nightmare, or at least very much fitting into this, I don’t know, certain box. Like actually addressing that, and actually being like, this is a… It’s very hard to be around these kinds of people. And if you’re not up to their, whatever level, and I thought that was interesting to have her explicitly say that.

Riese: Yeah.

Analyssa: Yeah. Shane—

Riese: She also over shares and it’s so cringy.

Drew: Yes. Very much so.

Riese: Because you can tell like Shane, because she’s like, I’ve… And in a way it reminded me of me, but she starts talking about her antidepressants and that… who, it’s just…

Analyssa: And like, how bad she wants Bette to like her, and maybe she had, maybe she can try this thing. And Shane has been giving good advice this episode and continues to do so. But basically she is like, you have to take it slow with Bette. I wish that Shane had said no, trust me, I’m a Bette expert, but she’s basically doling out advice of, you can’t come on too strong with Bette and viewers of The L Word know because Bette will react poorly. Carrie doesn’t know that, so she’s for sure going to continue on with her plan. But yeah…

Drew: Do we… Riese, you would know this, how did Shane become friends with Bette and all of them?

Riese: Did they meet at that millennium party or whatever, or were they already friends with her at that point?

Analyssa: I don’t know.

Drew: I don’t know. It just seems like such a thing where I find it surprising that Bette would not be judgmental towards Shane, when Bette first had met Shane.

Riese: No, it was Dana who was judgmental towards Shane.

Drew: Yeah. It was Dana. Anyways, that was just something that I was thinking about. But yeah, it is very cringy, but also it’s not the cringiest thing that we’re… It’s going to get cringier.

Riese: Nope. We’re not even there yet.

Drew: But before that, we have a nice little break, which is a scene that I would have been freaking out about, if… I’m just going to give a slight thing and then we can get into the fun part of it. Which is just, it’s about Angie and Jordi. And I just… If the previous scenes with Jordi had been Angie being like, I really want to talk to Jordi about all of my dad stuff. And Jordi’s like, I’m so sorry, I’m just so busy right now, I can’t see you. And Angie’s like, I really needed to talk and Jordi hasn’t been there for me. And it wasn’t like, oh, when I sit with Jordi, she’s texting and being like, oh my god, prom this, prom that, she’s just not available. Then this scene would have hit so hard because it’s like, oh, she was preparing. Anyways, that’s my one little thing, let’s get into the fun, which is that Angie is getting ready to break up with Jordi. And then, Jordi’s like, put on a raincoat and put on these headphones. And then it’s like a promposal for the ages.

Analyssa: Literally, La La Land who? I don’t know her. This was so over the top, but so sweet to me. I thought it was so cute, but I was worried that Angie was going to… I told Drew this, I was nervous about the nature versus nurture situation for a second, because I thought that Angie having gone into this conversation wanting to break up with Jordi, and then Jordi doing this big grand gesture, that she would do a Bette Porter thing and immediately shut down.

Riese: Right.

Analyssa: And she didn’t, she was very excited.

Riese: Yeah.

Drew: Yeah.

Riese: Yeah, that was… She won her over lickety split. That turned around on a dime.

Drew: I… the way this was happening, I kept thinking about that meme with the sort of stick figures and ones in the corner of the party. And it’s like, they don’t know the blah, blah. I was thinking about that and I was like, they don’t know that I was about to break up with you.

Riese: Right.

Analyssa: Okay.

Riese: Yikes.

Analyssa: Yeah. Let’s get into the worst scene of this episode, I think. So Carrie, as I said, does not take Shane’s advice and she’s like, I’m going to force myself to be friends with Bette Porter, which is just famously not how Bette Porter works.

Riese: Right.

Analyssa: I’ve already said famously twice on the pod today. If I say it again…

Riese: Then you’re not going to be famous anymore, we’re going to cut you off the fame list.

Analyssa: Thank you.

Riese: We’re going to put you right down to the D list. Right now you’re on the A list.

Analyssa: Thank you.

Riese: You’re welcome.

Analyssa: She’s asking if she can sit at Bette’s table, if you know, she’s trying to make nice, Bette sort of blows her off and Carrie, as Riese said, overshares and says…

Carrie: So funny. I just had a total flashback from my high school in Staten Island, that when I would ask all the cool girls if I could sit with them at lunch, they would just like, you know, whisper, “She’s such a dyke.”
Bette: Oh god, I’m so sorry. That was obviously not my intention.
Carrie: Oh no, I didn’t mean that.
Bette: At all.
Carrie: No, no, no, no.
Bette: Right.

Analyssa: And then, because Carrie has said, “They used to call me a dyke.” So Bette says that — I genuinely am stunned. I don’t know what to say. So Bette says, “That happened to me too at soccer camp, there were these girls who called it me,” and then she uses the N-word, and then “a dyke.” And the thing about it is to me, I was like, when she started the story, I was like, oh, we’re doing a thing where we’re all bonding about how some of us have been called dykes in high school. And, some of us have been bullied, and it never seemed like she was trying to bond in good faith, but it seemed kind of like a Bette Porter, everyone’s been through that experience, so sure. But because of the escalation of what she shares, which in the universe of The L Word, if that is Bette’s experience, then sure.

Drew: I don’t know what they’re trying to accomplish with this scene, because then the scene continues and it’s not that one moment, like Bette continues to be—

Riese: It keeps getting worse.

Carrie: I guess that I just wanted your blessing maybe, or just acceptance would be nice.
Bette: You know what? If you think what you have with Tina is working and you feel really good about it, then I don’t see why you would care what I think about you.

Drew: I think it’s something we’ve talked about a lot with The L Word, past and present, is that sometimes they will pair these things that are actual issues to talk about with a character in the wrong. And so then you’re like, wait, what do you want us to think here? Because yeah, Bette experiences racism that Carrie does not understand. That’s not what this is about though, so why are you having Bette express that when, like in this… It just, it undermines like—

Riese: It undermines how terrible it is.

Drew: Yeah. And I just—

Riese: And how traumatic it is.

Drew: And I just don’t really know what they want our… Do they want our response to be that Bette and Carrie are equally at fault here or equally right? Is that what they want us to feel? Because it feels rough.

Riese: I mean, it’s so… Because first of all, Carrie is being, I mean, she’s being inappropriate also. I had secondhand embarrassment for her. Because I was like, first of all, why are you bringing that… Bringing up that you were bullied in high school, it was so… And also she’s already a little bit drunk. And so you’re a little bit nervous about where this could go.

Analyssa: This is the thing where I agree with Bette, that this is a person who I would not want to engage with a ton at this party in this moment. I would also try to blow off this type of person in my life.

Riese: But look, Shane just did it. A lot better.

Drew: Yes.

Analyssa: But again, it’s just like, so am I supposed to think that Bette handled this correctly? Or am I supposed to think Carrie is being awkward and so Bette should have done it like this? It doesn’t make sense. And the thing is, it’s fine to not want to be friends with your person’s new person, that is allowed. And Drew, to your point about Bette, you don’t need to tell people specifically about the thing, she could have just been like, look…

Riese: I’m on a date.

Analyssa: Yeah. “I have someone with me. I will be civil because of Tina, but we’re… I’m not going to do this friend thing.”

Riese: Yeah. And also, because Carrie can’t assume that Bette is going to want to spend the night with her. Like you can’t just show up and be like, I’ve decided this is what we’re doing.

Drew: Totally.

Riese: You know what I mean? So like, and then it’s like, I don’t know what the show wants us to think. Because they’re both wrong.

Drew: Sure they’re both… they’re, yeah.

Riese: Like when I write out the squabble, I don’t know who wins. No one.

Analyssa: No one won. And again, in Bette Porter sharing instances of racism, I would like to clear cuttedly be on her side. I would like to be like, that was fucked and we should talk about that. I don’t want to be like, why would you say that now?

Riese: Right.

Analyssa: That’s… I don’t want to have conflicted feelings about that. I want to be like, yes, you experienced racism and that’s bad. We should not… I don’t know.

Drew: There’s an interesting thing that the show could have done, which I don’t think — and maybe they were trying to do this and I don’t necessarily think it’s working, which is to say that Carrie has an energy of being nice, being friendly, being chatty. I mean, it reminds me of conversations around the show Ted Lasso and stuff that that shows exploring, I think quite well this season, of sometimes the person who is the most, “Well, I want to be friends with everybody!” That that’s not actually kind. That’s not actually nice. It’s not thoughtful. It’s not listening. And so I do think there’s something that’s interesting as far as, Carrie is Tina’s new partner and Bette is still clearly heartbroken over it and that Carrie’s intense energy… I don’t know, like there’s things to explore. There’s also things to explore as far as identities and the different ways the two of them move through the world, and the different things that they’ve experienced in their life. And there is a nuanced, interesting conversation to be had about the fact that when you look at the two of them, Bette is clearly being mean to Carrie. But that doesn’t inherently mean that she’s in the wrong and Carrie’s in the right for being, quote, unquote, nice. But I don’t feel like that was handled well because it’s so skewed and Bette’s so cruel and that if that is what they’re going for, I don’t necessarily… That’s such a complicated thing to unpack and I don’t necessarily feel like they lived in the complication enough. And so instead it was just like, wow!

Riese: I don’t think they thought through enough, why on earth Carrie would come to this event?

Drew: Right.

Analyssa: Or…

Drew: Why was she volunteering?

Riese: Why… She explains why she’s coming, but it doesn’t make sense.

Drew: When you’re in high school and people are bullying you, you have nowhere to go. You’re in a, whatever your class size is, like those are the people in your life. The great thing about being an adult is that when you, when I meet people now who remind me of assholes I went to high school with, I go, “Oh, you remind me of assholes I went to high school with. You are not going to be in my life”. Or because Bette has to be in Carrie’s life, it’d be like “I’m going to smile and kill you with kindness, but not interact with you whenever I don’t have to, and we don’t need to be friends.” Clearly Carrie has a lot of damage and has not confronted those old wounds, and is projecting a lot onto the admittedly very toxic, very scary environment that is The L Word’s lesbian universe. So that is really interesting to me, and it feels realistic to me. I just don’t know what we’re supposed to think about Bette’s reaction to it.

Analyssa: Okay. Let’s all continue to chew on that and just move on, but I’m sorry, Dani needs an advanced team for every event she gets invited to right now.

Drew: Oh my God!

Riese: Because every time she walks in and is stunned that the people who have broken her heart are there, and I just feel like someone should go do the groundwork, come back outside and say “Okay, I’m prepping you. They’re standing over there. They’re standing over there.”

Drew: They’re not standing, they’re kissing!

Riese: Another bold choice this evening, from Carrie and from Dani. And also no one in this fucking writer’s room said “You know what, all of our characters have names that end with I or IE”. All of them!

Analyssa: I said that, and I really didn’t feel like you guys latched onto it as much as I wanted to, and it’s crazy.

Riese: You’re correct. You’re correct. It is insane. All of the new characters, all of them. Literally every single one of them, except Micah.

Drew: Yeah, Micah and Mirabel. But, yeah.

Riese: Like Sophie, Dani, Jordi, Angie, Finley.

Drew: Wow. Oh I forgot about Jordi.

Analyssa: Gigi, Carrie.

Riese: Gigi, Carrie.

Drew: Wow. What’s happening?

Riese: All we have is Nat and Micah.

Drew: Wow.

Riese: Both of whom are in and out. You know what I mean?

Analyssa: Who we aren’t talking about enough. I’ve said the “I” sound so much on this podcast.

Riese: Yeah, someone needs to go in and fix this ASAP.

Drew: Fascinating.

Analyssa: Change all their names immediately.

Riese: Dani, also, why are you going to this event alone?

Drew: Yes.

Riese: You know who probably would go with you, and who’s not doing anything? Is Gigi.

Drew: Well, Dani’s going to the event to talk to Bette, right?

Analyssa: Oh, right, she’s—

Drew: Dani is going to be like, “Hey Bette, we’re having a good time at this event. So how would you feel if I hooked up with your ex-girlfriend?”

Riese: Oh right.

Drew: “Who you’re clearly still in love with, because who wouldn’t be in love with Gigi?”

Riese: Her little mission, yeah, I should talk—

Analyssa: Dani’s here to ask Bette—

Riese: She doesn’t want anyone to get hurt like she was hurt.

Drew: Really nice.

Analyssa: It’s very sweet, but it’s very silly to imagine Dani here to ask Bette for Gigi’s hand in relationship. It doesn’t make any sense, because Bette could not care less about Gigi, and I wish that Dani would just accept that. But we’re on our way to that, because she goes into the bathroom to avoid Sophie and Finley kissing…

Drew: Yeah. Nat and Alice are having stall sex.

Riese: Yeah.

Drew: What number sex would you rank bathroom stall sex?

Analyssa: It’s low for me.

Riese: I would say low. Yeah, I would say low.

Drew: Clean bathroom stall sex?

Riese: Right. I don’t know if I’ve done it in a clean bathroom.

Analyssa: My experience is all in bar bathrooms, or party bathrooms, which are not great. What did you put ex-sex at, 11?

Drew: Yeah.

Analyssa: And then I argued up to 7?

Drew: I would put bathroom stall sex at a 7.

Analyssa: Fascinating. I would say…

Drew: Yeah, I’ve had some good bathroom stall sex.

Analyssa: I would say highest is 13.

Riese: On a 1 to 10 scale?

Drew: No, no, no. Ranking the best sexes.

Riese: Oh yeah. It would be pretty far down there for me.

Drew: Like in the teens?

Riese: I think we’re supposed to believe that Nat has an incredibly high sex drive.

Drew: Yes.

Riese: Like, wildly high sex drive.

Drew: Yes.

Analyssa: Wildly high sex drive, and loves for it to be in public.

Drew: In public, yes.

Analyssa: The thing about this is that, it’s fine to fuck in bathroom stall. They’re at a fancy event.

Drew: No, it’s not the time.

Analyssa: So Dani says that she’s here to talk to Bette, and Nat and Alice are like, “No, there’s no need.”

Riese: They’re so mean.

Analyssa: You don’t need to do that. Bette doesn’t give a shit.

Riese: Yeah, Bette doesn’t care at all. Take Gigi off our hands. I’m like, you guys, stop.

Analyssa: Everyone is so mean about Gigi. It’s so weird.

Drew: Yeah, I don’t get it.

Analyssa: But they’re like take the Gigi off our hands. Also, Nat reveals…

Nat: And for what it’s worth, Gigi’s really into you.
Dani: Oh.
Nat: Yeah. I had lunch with her the other day and I haven’t seen her like this in a long time.

Riese: Oh yeah. That was cute.

Analyssa: Which I thought was sweet. I think Drew thought it was inappropriate.

Drew: Yeah. I think you should… Look, it’s nice, but I mean you don’t… I don’t know. I think you—

Riese: They have no respect for Gigi, they don’t care about her boundaries.

Drew: Yeah. They should have respected that privacy of—

Analyssa: Nat and Alice are meddlers at heart, and that’s why they like having sex in public places, for some reason.

Drew: The next thing that happens, is one of those things that makes me want to scream, which is that—

Analyssa: Speaking of inappropriate.

Drew: Yeah. Finley apologizes to Dani, but not to actually apologize to Dani. Finley apologizes to Dani with the purpose of saying to Dani, “You were a good partner to Sophie. How do I be a better partner to Sophie?” That’s wild!

Riese: She’s like, “You’re an adult”. Like, “I’m trying to be an adult and you’re so…” She’s like, “I don’t know, get a job?”

Drew: That’s so not Dani’s problem. Are you kidding?

Riese: Yeah. And also like, I mean, it’s funny because they’re throwing back to the earlier scene, where Dani’s like, “We’re the same age” and Dani’s like, “and the similarities end there,” which is like what Finley said earlier. But I think what Dani ends up getting to say about this is so real.

Drew: Yes. It’s my favorite line of the show.

Dani: I’m so sick of people thinking I have it together. Because all that means is that, unlike you, people aren’t inclined to hold me when I need it most. And if you ever use that against me, so help me, God. I will actually kill you.

Drew: Oh yeah. As an earth sign, I really related to that.

Riese: Right. I also like it when a Finley is like—

Finley: Can I hug you?
Dani: No.

Analyssa: Again, Finley, always trying to do the sort of, quote, “good to other people” thing, but very rarely is it the correct “good for other people.” She’s like, “Oh, Dani has admitted something personal. Maybe I should hug her.” It’s like, you’re the one millionth person that Dani would like to hug. There’s so many people ahead of you.

Drew: Yeah. It’s similar to what I was saying about Carrie, where you’re like, “Oh, it’s the nice thing to do.” And you’re like, “but it’s not the kind of thing to do.”

Riese: Right. I don’t think they know what Finley has been doing since between the ages of 18 and 25.

Analyssa: She got kicked out and then she popped back up fully formed, through a time hole into Los Angeles.

Riese: I feel like she would have gone to a state college or something. Just the sense that she’s had to charm her way into her life. Which is good, she’s built up a lot of charm, but she hasn’t really built a resume.

Drew: Right.

Analyssa: Okay. Now speaking of charm. Bette and Pippa are flirting, because Pippa is so bad at poker, and Bette is into Pippa being off kilter. And they’re chatting, they go to the bar and then their faces get real close to each other and they kiss. And then they decide to leave the party. This is the second event in a row that Bette has left early.

Riese: Yeah. For Pippa.

Analyssa: For Pippa.

Riese: It seems like it’s kind of ending though, right? Is it?

Drew: What?

Riese: The event?

Drew: Yeah, I think it’s winding down.

Analyssa: For sure.

Riese: Who won, do you think?

Drew: I don’t know.

Analyssa: Shane, probably. I have no idea.

Riese: Shane, yeah. You know what? This would have been a great time for a Papi cameo.

Drew: Again, I think I would have been way more excited about this if I wasn’t souring on Bette as much as I am.

Analyssa: I agree.

Drew: I was also like, okay, that’s nice. I hope your… Stay safe, Pippa, I don’t love that you’re tied professionally and personally with this person, who’s like, “I will protect you. I will take care of you.” I’m like, okay. I hope Bette’s not kidding. I hope you’re really the special one. Cause I’m a little bit scared for you.

Analyssa: Yeah, don’t say anything Bette might really dislike. Cause then you could be in the splash zone, not in a fun way. Also at the bar is Nat, who is flirting with someone who is not Alice, and Alice hates it. And Nat comes over and is like, “oh my God, that woman at the bar asked me if you’re Alice from TV.” Like, wants to bond over having just flirted with someone else at the bar, and Alice doesn’t like it. And so of course it’s time for a big, big talk, which is to say no talk at all, just basically nothing’s changed. We’re having sex and it’s fun, but it’s not going to work.

Drew: Yeah. And Alice is like, “Why do you have to make me be the one to say this?” And I think that’s true. I do think that at this point, it is, I think, on Nat to equally be like… Not to act clueless, I was a little annoyed with Nat for acting so clueless. No, you know that the feelings are still there and the problems are still there, and you know what you want from a relationship, and you know what Alice wants, and they’re not the same thing. And it’s sad, but that happens sometimes, and stop doing this.

Analyssa: Yeah. Especially in this moment, did Nat have to flirt with someone else at the bar? Like, we could have… Anyway.

Riese: Yeah. I feel like that’s Nat’s whole personality now.

Drew: Well, polyamorous people are monsters.

Riese: That is true. It is an accurate representation of the poly community. They can’t contain themselves.

Drew: They just cannot control themselves. Not once could they be like, “Oh, I’m here with one person. And that person doesn’t like when I flirt with other people. So I’m going to control myself tonight.” Never could anyone have those boundaries.

Analyssa: No. They’re flirting all the time.

Riese: Flirting all the time. Yeah.

Analyssa: Then, speaking of big talks, this is not a big talk. Jordi and Angie are sitting where the promposal happened, and they’re chatting and Angie’s like, “I’m so relieved.” And I thought she was going to say, “I thought that you were blowing me off for a couple of weeks.” And Jordi is like, “I know it’s been so crazy. I’ve been planning, but of course I didn’t want to blow the secret.” And I think what they’re trying to do is the thing, Drew, you were saying, I think they’re trying to… It’s not really a retcon, but they’re trying to quickly be like, Angie has been distant because she’s been planning—

Riese: She’s planning a dance?

Analyssa: Because she’s been planning this event, and she doesn’t want to blow the secret. But the thing that doesn’t make sense about that is, if you were trying to keep a secret about prom, you wouldn’t actually keep bringing up prom. You would maybe even say, “Tell me more about your dad, actually. Let’s talk about that.”

Riese: Also, honestly, Jordi’s part in the dance was pretty minimal. The girls did all the fucking legwork, and umbrellas, the umbrellas basically danced for them. She literally walked forward, walked back, waved an umbrella in the air. Come on.

Drew: So Carrie has responded to her interaction with Bette by getting absolutely shit-faced, and is not leaving, even though the event has ended, or is ending. Tess is trying to help and talk to her, and then Shane comes over to talk to Carrie. And then Shane’s like, “I’m going to take you home. It’s on the way.” Which it probably isn’t.

Analyssa: Because Tess is like, “Let’s drive her home because she shouldn’t Lyft”. And Shane’s is like, “You want me to drive her home?”

Riese: No, because she’s like, “I don’t want her to throw up in a Lyft,” and Shane’s like, “Well you want her to throw up in my car?” And Tess is like, “Yeah”. And it’s just like, alright.

Analyssa: I know that this is a rough time for Carrie, but I love her being wasted and being like—

Carrie: Yeah, I’m a lawyer.
Tess: That’s great.
Carrie: I passed the bar in two states actually.

Riese: I know, and she was like, “I have money.”

Analyssa: We talked about this with Bette and Gigi too, she’s just different, for reasons, some of which make sense, and some of which are just inherent to the characters in this show, that’s never going to work, that she’s different.

Riese: But then it was like, I didn’t know… This is when I was like, “are we supposed to think she actually was in AA?” Because at first I was like, “Well Tess might recognize her”, and after I was like, “but Tess Tess probably wouldn’t call that out,” because she wouldn’t call that out. Because are we supposed to see Carrie as somebody who drank too much tonight out of nerves and acted the way she did, or somebody who relapsed tonight, into something that she’s already decided she shouldn’t do in her life, but is still doing? And that’s a very different story, I think.

Analyssa: Yeah, and it has different feelings wrapped up in it. I watched this as, I almost said, “I read this as,” which I guess applies… But as she got drunk out of nerves and tried to feel better, which is still not great.

Riese: But I did love Tess and Shane as parents, that they both were willing to leave the event to make sure she got home safe. This was very different than the way Max was treated. I mean, Tess is an adult, and now I guess Shane is an adult too.

Drew: Love that for her.

Analyssa: Speaking of drunk adults. So Finley and Sophie are leaving the event too, they’re holding hands, they’re cute. Finley tells Sophie that she talked to Dani, Sophie thinks that this is kind of vaguely funny, which is not how I would’ve reacted. Finley says, “I thought I could get tips from Dani,” basically, “on how to love you better.” And Sophie does the thing you would do, which is like—

Sophie: You are so charming.
Finley: Yeah. But not in a good way.
Sophie: Oh, come on. You charmed the pants off of Barry.
Finley: I told him he was good looking. That’s not…
Sophie: Yes, yes. And he loved it. And you were just yourself. You know, that’s hard to do. I can’t do that shit.
Finley: Really?
Sophie: Yeah.
Finley: Okay.
Sophie: I lose myself all the time. Lose myself at work, I lost myself with Dani. Oh, you just… I can just be myself with you. I don’t have to think about it.

Riese: Which I thought was kind of cute.

Drew: Yeah, that’s nice.

Analyssa: I do think that’s sweet.

Riese: But it was also like once they got to the car and were standing outside of the car, and drinking out of a flask, and about to get into the car and drive home, I immediately lost my mind and was unable to concentrate for the rest of the episode.

Analyssa: While they were standing next to the van kissing, or the whatever, kissing, I was like, “Surely they’re not getting into this car? They’re waiting for a Lyft or they’re going to walk away.” And then they’re kissing up against the car, and I was like, “Well, this is a weird…” And then I thought maybe Dani might show up. I was expecting different drama. And then Finley takes a big pull out of a flask, and then 30 seconds later, fewer, five seconds later. Sophie goes, “You’re good to drive, right?” So they get in the car.

Riese: I mean, I am assuming, Finley is an alcoholic, so Finley is probably very used to driving drunk. And Sophie probably thinks it’s fine, but also, it’s obviously not fine. And we’ve seen them have, how many drinks? Three? And they’ve only been on camera for like, 15 seconds.

Drew: Yeah. It’s not…

Analyssa: Yeah. It’s stressful to me.

Riese: Because I mean, in a TV show when someone’s like, “Are you okay to drive?” and they’re drunk, you know something’s being set up.

Analyssa: Immediately, something bad is going to happen.

Riese: And I was like, “Fuck, you guys!” In all caps, I wrote, “ARE YOU OKAY TO DRIVE SHE SAYS AS FINLEY IS DRINKING FROM A FLASK”

Analyssa: Does a pull from a flask, then gets directly into a car. There’s no way.

Riese: No.

Analyssa: No!

Riese: Nope.

Analyssa: What you should have said is, “Did you just see me take the pull off the flask? Let’s get a Lyft. Let’s walk for a while, maybe.” Anything.

Riese: Right. Because even if she is okay to drive, even if Sophie honestly believes that she’s okay to drive, it’s also not legal for her to drive. And that’s a really bad situation. Finley barely has any money, she cannot afford any of this for many reasons. Anyway. Anyway!

Analyssa: Anyway.

Riese: Something more exciting happened, which I did watch on my second go round.

Analyssa: Which you were able to see when you watched it again.

Riese: Which I was able to see, cause I had already seen it.

Analyssa: Dani has gone over to Gigi’s and is ringing her doorbell in the middle of the night, and it’s lightly starting to rain, which we will see a lot more of, I’ll tell you what. And Gigi’s like—

Gigi: You’re a lot more dramatic than I thought.

Analyssa: I agree with Gigi that this is quite dramatic.

Drew: It is very dramatic. I really, really like this couple though. Dani says that she’s been hurt a lot, and basically does a little light slut shaming of Gigi.

Riese: Yeah, I didn’t care for that, cause I have had that exact same thing said to me, and I’m like, literally we were at an event… what… did you think was going to happen?

Drew: Right. It’s not good. But what I liked is that, by taking a beat, like they were able to take… Instead of Gigi just getting upset or whatever, they were able to get at the actual… What Dani was actually trying to get at was—

Riese: Do you really like me?

Drew: Do you really like me?

Riese: Or do you like everyone?

Analyssa: Do you just like hooking up with people?

Riese: Which, obviously, fair question.

Analyssa: Gigi does love flirting with people. So that’s fair.

Drew: Yeah. So I liked that they eventually got there, and it does go to show that, not that you should be okay with people being mean to you, but sometimes taking a second instead of immediately getting sensitive and upset, to actually ask a followup question, can lead to good things. And what it leads to this time is a kiss in the rain!

Analyssa: A pretty good kiss.

Drew: Yeah.

Analyssa: The L Word loves kissing, and I love kissing also. And I love when The L Word loves kissing. The amount of hair must be discussed.

Riese: Also, as a Jew, I’m just like, “it’s raining, and their hair is out.”

Drew: No, I would never.

Riese: And the frizz. I can already see it collecting.

Analyssa: You can see it start to build, but also as a person with I’m sure a similar hair texture to Dani, which is vaguely wavy, not super tight curls, that is going to explode. She’s going to get so puffy. And she had a nice blowout. She ruined the blowout. Gigi at least has some bedhead. Dani just wasted whatever work or money she put into her hair for this evening.

Drew: I’ve been very “I don’t want to get my hair wet, I don’t want to get my hair wet,” because I’m very precious about it. I would get my hair wet to kiss Gigi in the rain. I just want to go on the record to say that.

Analyssa: I would also kind of get my hair wet to kiss Dani in the rain. I’ll say. I think she’s very beautiful.

Drew: Do we want to break them up? And then just like, take…

Analyssa: No, I’m happy to just watch them kiss in the rain for now. But Gigi is like, “Come in,” and Dani is like, “No, no, no. Not yet. But let’s keep kissing outside.”

Riese: Yeah. She wants to take it slow. She’s such a proper lady in her proper lady dress.

Drew: I think it was more about emotional damage of the whole…

Riese: Yeah. I mean, it is true… People fuck on the first night on this program.

Analyssa: Frequently.

Riese: I would say. I mean like Tom and Alice, that was their first… He thought about being with her for how long? 15, 16 minutes? And then they were already romping around in the hay having sex that we thought was boring.

Analyssa: 30 minutes before they were fully inside each other, he was like, “I’m going to set you up with someone.” And Alice had to be like, “No, I’m hitting on you.”

Riese: Yeah. And then they’re bang, bang, bang. And that is the same for all of the couples. They really just go home and bang.

Drew: I appreciate this not hooking up on the first date representation.

Riese: Right, cause we’re about to get hooking up on the first date representation.

Analyssa: Soon.

Riese: This is a very sexy episode. Honestly, everyone in this episode was so horny.

Drew: Yeah. I love that.

Riese: It was bursting at the gills, which was very enjoyable. My note for the Dani/Gigi scene is, “I’m still really stressed out about Finley driving.”

Analyssa: Anyway, the image of these two women with thick, luscious, very long hair, both their hands are in the other person’s hair. If they moved in together… I recently lived with someone, my roommate, who had very long, very thick hair, and I have decently long hair. Disgusting. It’s everywhere. You’ll never not find it.

Riese: You guys are gonna do great.

Drew: Yeah, I was about to be like, “I hate to break it to you about your new roommate, but…”

Analyssa: No, but that’s the thing. They’ll never not find each other’s hairs in the bathroom, in the kitchen. Anyway, not the point.

Drew: Yeah.

Analyssa: So one last thing with Carrie, and then we can talk about more fun stuff. Carrie is drunk, Shane and Tess have gotten Carrie home, and they’re getting her into the house. They’re being very sweet, very kind.

Riese: And she’s so sad. She’s like, “You people are all so beautiful.”

Analyssa: It’s really sad.

Riese: Not to rag on Tina again. But Tina, have they texted tonight?

Analyssa: Right?

Drew: No.

Analyssa: I know that Tina is out of town or busy or whatever, but—

Riese: How busy?

Analyssa: I think that this calls for a phone call or something.

Drew: Yeah.

Riese: Also, why didn’t Shane call Tina? I guess, because for some reason they refused to put Tina in scenes with Shane and Alice?

Drew: Yeah.

Riese: Who they were also, for some reason, friends with Tina.

Drew: Yeah. My explanation is that in the Bette breakup, things got bad with Shane and Alice also, it’s the only explanation.

Analyssa: Yeah. But, now in 2021, Tina and Bette are cordial, she’s around because of Angie. So Shane, especially who’s deeply involved in Angie’s life could be…

Riese: They did have lunch or something in season one, I think altogether? Maybe or just Shane? Anyway, poor Carrie.

Analyssa: Yeah. And it made me really sad too, because it’s a direct callback to when Carrie and Tina have dinner at Bette and Gigi’s first date and Tina is like, “You’re beautiful.”

Riese: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Analyssa: And Carrie got emotional.

Riese: Yeah.

Analyssa: I did love the moment, I think it’s earlier when Carrie’s like, “I was supposed to have a great night. I have a little sharp suit on.”

Riese: “I got a new outfit.”

Analyssa: You do look cute. It’s fine.

Drew: Yeah.

Analyssa: These people are mean, don’t let them bully you.

Drew: They’re very mean.

Riese: Except for Shane and Tess who are little perfect angels walking her home.

Drew: Yeah.

Shane: We’re going to get you settled in warm and I promise you, it’s going to be okay.
Tess: Yeah. We’re going to get you water and a cozy bed.
Carrie: I don’t think you guys understand, I just can’t live like this, the rest of my life. I don’t think I can marry Tina.

Drew: I do think that Carrie is 60 years old and should not be this fragile, but I don’t think it’s unrealistic for this 60-year-old queer to be this fragile and I’m finding it to be very interesting. I found everything with her this episode, again, from the Bette perspective, I don’t really know what’s going on, but from a Carrie point of view, I find this whole thing with her to be very interesting.

Analyssa: I agree.

Riese: I think also, she’s a public defender?

Drew: Uh-huh (affirmative).

Riese: That’s really cool and great.

Drew: That’s so cool.

Analyssa: Again—

Riese: I mean Max had nothing going on.

Analyssa: Again—

Riese: Oh, wait, that’s not true he had many computers.

Drew: He invented computers.

Analyssa: He invented computers, please respect him.

Drew: And he had that beard.

Riese: Right. But not yet.

Analyssa: She’s passed the bar in two states.

Riese: Yeah.

Analyssa: That is hard. She’s smart and savvy and—

Riese: She gets in front of courtrooms every day. I know what I was going to say, actually, I was like, is this one of those things where when I’m 60, I’m going to look back at 39-year-old me saying, “Wow, that 60 year old should really get her mental health together,” and think that I was completely wrong because I, a 60-year-old woman will be like, “I’ve been on antidepressants,” to Shane at the bar. Probably.

Analyssa: Maybe I will be 60 and still very concerned about how hot people think I am.

Riese: I have learned, though, not to have a ton of drinks and I am only 39. So, there is that.

Drew: I feel like even just in the years that I’ve known you, you’ve changed.

Riese: I have.

Analyssa: That’s nice to say. Carrie says, “I don’t think I can marry Tina.” And you get the sense that this is like a crystallization of a bunch of stuff, but it does feel like there’s one conversation to be had before… It felt very much like Angie being like, “Have you ever broken up with someone?” Because she’s mad at Jordi. Tina was like, “Do it. Break up.” You guys, there are some conversations to be had about Tina and how much they want to be in Bette’s life. And what if they hang out with Carrie’s friends?

Drew: What if they went back… They don’t live in LA, they weren’t living in LA.

Riese: She lives in LA tonight.

Analyssa: Right, there’s a house here.

Drew: I know that. But they weren’t so, go back to what you were doing before.

Drew: Speaking of Bette.

Riese: Speaking of Bette.

Drew: Bette brings Pippa to an art thing, it’s the triangle of light.

Riese: Yeah. That’s a lot.

Analyssa: It’s art.

Riese: It’s art.

Drew: And, Bette loves to have sex on art and they sure do. And even though I’m feeling complicated about Bette, it is very hot.

Analyssa: It’s really hot and also very beautifully shot.

Drew: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Analyssa: It’s high-end sex scene for The L Word, I think.

Riese: Yeah.

Analyssa: It’s lovely to look at.

Riese: And we do at long last, see what? The hand on the back.

Drew: Yes.

Analyssa: We were watching and I pointed, you know that meme of Leonardo DiCaprio pointing at the screen?

Riese: Uh-huh (affirmative).

Analyssa: And I was like, promo shot.

Riese: Yeah.

Analyssa: We found it.

Riese: Bette’s nice lacy bra and Pippa’s hand in the light. They love lighting.

Analyssa: The light’s are genuinely very cool, as I’ve already said, but why is everyone having sex at their place of business?

Drew: I don’t know.

Analyssa: It’s so frequent in this show.

Riese: Because it’s fun to look at.

Drew: Yeah.

Riese: I’ve never seen Bette work on a computer as fast as she did in that room. She was like…

Riese: She knew how to— How’s Kismet going to feel about this?

Analyssa: I was going to say—

Riese: Probably good, I guess.

Drew: Yeah.

Analyssa: What is the installation? You get to pick your own lights? Is it that Bette — whatever, it’s fine.

Riese: It’s that you get to have sex with somebody, an artist that you admire under the lighting of your choice. And that has appeal. That’s experiential art.

Analyssa: On a cold, gallery floor.

Riese: On a cold gallery floor. Yes. It’s no overnight jail for protesting.

Drew: Sex in a museum or a gallery would be cool. I’d be into that. I don’t know how it would happen, but…

Riese: I’ve had sex in the parking lot of an art museum.

Analyssa: I was just about to say, we’re playing a quick round of, “I have, I would, I wouldn’t” and we hit all three. Riese says, “I have,” Drew says, “I would,” Ana, “I wouldn’t.” Okay. Good for us. Okay. Tess and Shane are leaving Carrie’s.

Drew: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Riese: Yeah. And she’s like, “Were you that kind of drunk?” And Tess is like, “Oh, I was much worse, but she didn’t break a bone or a dish,” and that was funny.

Analyssa: And then they’re getting—

Riese: Everyone wants their hair to get fucked up tonight, apparently.

Analyssa: And they had an umbrella. They didn’t have—

Riese: No one is thinking about the frizz, everyone’s just thinking about the mouth.

Analyssa: When you kiss in the rain, is it as much water in between your two faces as when you have sex in the shower? I had an ex who was really into shower sex.

Riese: I don’t like shower sex.

Analyssa: I didn’t either. I mean, it’s fun to have sex with someone who you like, you know, I enjoyed it. But when you hit a weird angle and the faucet means that there’s just a stream of water down both of your faces in between where your mouths are touching. That’s a pass for me, and is raining like that? I guess there’s not as much water.

Drew: It depends on the kind… I mean, I would say don’t make out during a tropical storm.

Analyssa: Sure.

Riese: I would say do.

Drew: What?

Riese: Make out during a tropical storm.

Drew: But I mean, do it inside with protective windows.

Riese: No. Do it outside.

Drew: But—

Riese: Make out in a hurricane.

Drew: Yeah. I think it depends on… Same with the water pressure of the shower, it depends on the water pressure or the rain.

Analyssa: Never loved it.

Riese: Speaking of people who are horny in an inappropriate location.

Analyssa: So true. Finley and Sophie are driving and they’re looking at each other in love a lot.

Riese: But Sophie’s reaching over and Finley is obviously like, “I’m driving drunk, so I’m doing it. I’m on this.”

Analyssa: 10 and 2, looking forward. Sophie is being pretty annoying. I get that this is a cute thing if nothing goes wrong.

Riese: Right.

Analyssa: As we know something goes wrong, so now it’s annoying. But, I don’t remember if I said this in the first season, but anytime two characters are in a car, I expect that there’s going to be a car accident. The reason I think about it in the first season is because Sophie and Dani were driving to their wedding venues. And it was a lot of, through the windows, we’re looking at them driving. And I was like, a car is going to come and T-bone them.

Riese: Yeah.

Analyssa: And that’s what I thought was going to happen here too.

Riese: Right.

Analyssa: This is the most car crash preparation scene of all time.

Drew: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Analyssa: You are just expecting it the whole time.

Riese: Because she sticks Finley’s hands down her pants.

Analyssa: They’re going to do some car sex.

Drew: Would everybody like to say if they would have—

Analyssa: While driving? I simply would not.

Drew: No.

Analyssa: I’m going to get vulnerable. I don’t know that I’m good enough with my hands in a stationary sort of situation where I don’t have to be focusing. I’m self-conscious about that when we’re just in a bed. Few variables.

Riese: Yeah.

Analyssa: That’s some personal stuff. That’s fine.

Riese: Yeah.

Analyssa: In a car? There’s no way I can do both.

Riese: Right. I mean if Finley has really long arms…

Analyssa: I wish that the listeners could see my enactment of one hand on the wheel and one arm out just, seems acrobatic in a way that’s not—

Drew: And it feels unsafe in a way that doesn’t… I don’t like it.

Riese: So, I was just like, as soon as she started doing that, I was like, oh my God, oh my God.

Analyssa: You watched this stressfully for a few minutes, not minutes, but it feels eternal. And then of course they don’t get hit by a car, which is—

Riese: Thank God.

Analyssa: … good.

Riese: Or hit someone else.

Analyssa: But there are sirens and a cop is coming. And again in a, this would be cute if we weren’t in a serious situation, but now it’s kind of annoying because it’s serious. Sophie’s like, “But you’re okay. You’re okay. Right?” Like, “You’re okay. Right?” The whole thing… Of course she’s not.

Riese: Giggling about it and putting—

Drew: Which also feels just weird race-wise?

Analyssa: Right.

Drew: I was just a little bit confused by that.

Riese: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah.

Analyssa: Right. With all of the things that this show wants to talk about.

Riese: Yeah. It’s weird that Sophie wouldn’t be more aware of that. In fact, not just more aware, but incredibly hyper aware.

Drew: Yeah.

Riese: I feel like Finley’s aware of it because she probably drives drunk so often that it’s always on her mind. But I feel like Sophie would be very much more aware of it than she is in this scene as well.

Drew: Yeah.

Analyssa: Again, the sobriety storylines, it’s just not doing it for me.

Riese: Well get ready because Finley is about to be going to AA with Tess.

Analyssa: Right. Well, that’s the thing. This is what I wish. It feels like this is going to be a culmination — in combo with the rest of what happened in this episode — of Finley’s irresponsible and she needs to get her life together with regard to sobriety. They can go together, a person who is very goofy and doesn’t really have career aspirations can also need to get help for drinking.

Riese: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Analyssa: But those are so separate.

Riese: Yeah.

Analyssa: They’re not the same issue and it feels, intentionally or not, coming at the end of this episode is like, Finley just fucks around and doesn’t care. And now she’s going to have to get serious and admit that something is wrong.

Riese: Her and Sophie are equally at fault for what just happened.

Drew: Yes.

Riese: And Sophie is even drunk… who knows? But they’re both wasted, neither of them should be driving. And they both made the decision and Sophie instigated the sex.

Analyssa: Well, and Sophie asked Finley to drive. Everyone made bad choices, I’m not saying that. I just don’t love the conflation of, Finley’s irresponsible and that actually points to a bigger problem. Sometimes people are just irresponsible and also sometimes people have very serious problems with alcohol. It seems like Finley has both, but the show doesn’t seem to care that much about pulling those apart.

Riese: Right.

Analyssa: It’s all wrapped up into goofball Finley. And again, I realized that sometimes things ping for you in a personal way where you’re like, I’m mad about this actually, me. But it just feels kind of easy for them to make this, the thing.

Riese: Right. But I feel like what they’re setting up is for this to be a conflict now between Finley and Sophie. Because they both played a part in what happened, but Finley is the one who has to deal with the consequences of it. And then Finley is going to have a hard time getting her life on track with everything that she’s going to be required to do as a person with a DUI. And then Sophie is going to hold that against her. And I can already see all of the fucking—

Analyssa: Or, maybe more annoyingly, she’s somehow going to get out of it. It’s actually not going to be a big thing.

Riese: That’s the other thing, The L Word, especially the Gen Q, and that’s what I said after I watched it the first time I was like, the other thing is though we had an episode where Sophie was visiting Dani and at the end, Dani was like, “What if you stayed the night?” And then she was like, nothing. We had an episode where we don’t even know what happened after that.

Analyssa: Right. Or that one where Shane left the bar and told Finley to lock up and then Finley just left at some point. The bar could have gotten robbed, we have no idea. There’s all these little things that—

Riese: Cherie Jaffe, they constantly are doing that where they have a big thing at the end and then it just disappears.

Analyssa: In the unknowable amount of time between episodes.

Riese: Yeah.

Analyssa: Well…

Riese: And that’s the episode.

Analyssa: I hate to end on that note.

Drew: And that’s the episode.

Analyssa: I feel like I got most of my thoughts out about this episode in that last section. I think the Carrie and Finley stuff is really tough and especially the Bette stuff was really tough. And I don’t really know where they’re going to take it or why it feels necessary to them.

Drew: Yeah.

Analyssa: But it started off really strong, really good sex scene at the beginning and some good smooches, which I love.

Drew: Yeah. I would say that there are things that I’m like, “N-n-n,” and there’s also things that I don’t have issues with how they’re being handled as much as they’re just painful. And then there’s things I have issues with how they’re being handled. And then there’s stuff that’s fun. Did I like this episode? That’s a complicated question.

Riese: I don’t know. I don’t think I did.

Drew: Did I think it was a pretty good episode? Yeah.

Analyssa: I agree. I thought it was well done, well-made.

Riese: Mostly.

Drew: Mostly.

Analyssa: But it was a little bit like, not what I ordered.

Drew: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Analyssa: It felt like if a pretty good dish at a restaurant came out, but you were like, well, this isn’t really what I wanted though. That’s sort of how that felt to me.

Drew: Yeah. But I really like Gigi and Dani together. And I really like Dani talking about how some people don’t get to express their emotions the same way as other people do. And I really liked that.

Analyssa: And I liked Shane and Tess touching faces finally.

Riese: In the rain.

Analyssa: In the rain. Okay. One realistic thing about this is people in Los Angeles do make a big deal about it raining. And that’s what happened in The L Word too. But look, next week, we’re going to get a third event.

Drew: Oh right. Because the book launch.

Analyssa: It’s the book launch.

Riese: Oh yeah. We are. That’s going to be so thrilling, I’m so excited.

Analyssa: That’ll be fun.

Lauren: Thank you so much for listening to this episode of To L and Back Generation Q! One of two podcasts brought to you by Autostraddle.com. You can follow us on Instagram and Twitter @tolandback. You can also email us at tolandbackcast@gmail.com. Don’t forget, we also have a hotline! Yes, it still exists! Give us a call, leave us a message, or just give us a piece of your mind! You can reach us at 971-217-6130! We also have merch! Head over to store.autostraddle.com. There are “Bette Porter For President” t-shirts, there are To L and Back stickers, and lots of other simply iconic Autostraddle merchandise. Our theme song is by the talented Be Steadwell. Our brand new To L and Back: Generation Q logo is by the incredible Jacqi Ko! Jacqi is so, so talented and you should definitely go check out her work, I’ve linked her website and socials in the show notes! And definitely let us know if you want us to make stickers of the new logo, because I think those would look pretty sick! This episode was produced, edited and mixed by me, Lauren Klein, you can find me on Instagram @laurentaylorklein and on Twitter @ltklein. You can follow Drew everywhere @draw_gregory. That’s “Drew” in the present tense. You can follow Analyssa on Instragram @analocaa, with two As, and on Twitter @analoca_, with one A and an underscore. And you can follow our in-house L Word savant and living legend, Riese Bernard, everywhere @autowin. Autostraddle is @autostraddle. And of course, the reason why we are all here…. Autostraddle.com. Okay. So sticking with the trend of last week with our now full-of-intention L words, we are going to end this episode with an L word that describes what we thought of this episode. So Drew, Riese, Analyssa, what are your L words?

Analyssa: My word is lottery.

Drew: Uh-huh (affirmative).

Riese: Because you won it?

Analyssa: Because I feel like I won it with this episode. No, absolutely not. Because that could have been another fundraiser idea, lottery tickets, anything other than poker.

Riese: That’s illegal, but—

Analyssa: Will next week’s event be fun or not fun? We’ve had two and one of each. So, kind of a lottery situation. Will I win the lottery next week or not?

Drew: Yeah. Mine is lunch, because I think my feelings about this episode are similar to my feelings about lunch.

Riese: Lunch is my least favorite meal.

Analyssa: Lunch is my least favorite meal too.

Riese: I’m really annoyed by it.

Drew: It’s not my go-to meal, but usually, the snack aspect of lunch I really enjoy. If I’m having—

Riese: Yeah. Lunch is a series of snacks.

Drew: Right. But there’s usually the main snack, sometimes I’m iffy on, but then if I’m also like, oh but I also had chips or cookies, that’s the Gigi and Dani. And yes, I did also think of lunch and go, how am I going to justify it? Because I can’t have another episode where I can’t think of an L-word, that’s so embarrassing.

Analyssa: Yeah. Riese’s is—

Drew: And I can’t prepare ahead of time. I simply have too much else going on in my life.

Analyssa: Riese’s this week is lactose intolerant because she’s never said it before. No, go ahead. What is it?

Riese: Lactose intolerant.

Drew: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Analyssa: Has Riese ever done lactose intolerant?

Drew: No. But I’m curious to hear why from this episode?

Riese: Because of the light show, I think, at the museum. And also because of the scenes with driving and eyebrows.

Analyssa: You’re right.

Drew: Maybe I don’t know what the word lactose intolerant means.

Riese: There was all this stuff about poker and Carrie.

Drew: And all this makes you want to have almond milk.

Riese: Bathroom sex. And that always brings me back to lactose intolerant.

Drew: Ah, yes.

Analyssa: I didn’t think she was going to land the plane, but you know what? She did, she did it, she landed it.

Riese: It’s like that movie where the guy landed the plane upside down. Did you see that movie?

Analyssa: Sully?

Drew: Sully? Or Flight?

Riese: No. The one where Denzel Washington was—

Drew: Flight, yeah.

Riese: Yeah.

Drew: Yeah.

Riese: Well, you guys should see it.

Drew: No, you shouldn’t, it’s a really bad movie.

Riese: Better than Into the Wild.

Drew: There’s 40 better Denzel Washington movies you should watch before you watch Flight. Anyways…

Analyssa: Let’s call it.

Drew: Let’s call it.

Riese: That’s the end of it.

“Wait, Is This a Date?” Podcast Episode 106: You Should Probably Break Up

Dating isn’t all sexting and thirst traps. It’s also heartbreak. This week on Wait, Is This a Date? we’re joined by Autostraddle’s very own Sex and Dating Editor Ro White to discuss break ups. We’re talking break up strategy, when to break up, and the gay tradition of remaining friends afterward.

But first! We begin with my free association of break ups to cancel culture and play a game of “Is This a Real Queer Celebrity Scandal or Did Drew Just Make It Up?” Fun!

SHOW NOTES

+ Speaking of cancel culture, listen to these very good cancel culture episodes of Bad with Money and You’re Wrong About.

+ I haven’t read it but here’s the Marlene Dietrich biography written by her daughter Maria Riva.

+ I was going to link to a You Need Help about break ups but honestly just scroll through the whole tag. It’s what Riese sent me back in 2019.

+ The Janelle Monáe post Christina mentioned.

+ This is what I wrote about Princess Cyd for our 50 Best Lesbian+ Films of the Decade list:

The first time I watched Princess Cyd I watched it again a few hours later. My girlfriend at the time got home from work and I was bursting with a certain chaotic enthusiasm anyone who knows me knows too well. I insisted it would just be easier to show her than try and articulate why I’d fallen so deeply and completely in love with this movie. So we watched it! And she understood! How could she not? Because Princess Cyd is so, so good.

The mostly non-existent plot is Cyd decides to spend a summer with her novelist aunt Miranda. As she explores her casually pansexual desires – most significantly with hottie barista Katie – she also reflects on the memory of her mother and learns to respect Miranda’s less sexual approach to life. The experience of watching the movie is like being invited to one of Miranda’s living room readings. The experience of watching the movie is like being a part of one of Cyd’s trysts. The experience of watching the movie is like remembering the best summer of your life that you didn’t even realize was the best summer of your life until years later you think back on a small moment that shouldn’t mean much and realize it means everything. Every time I open Netflix I hover the cursor over Princess Cyd tempted to sink back into its world. After texting one friend about this movie for the millionth time she said: “I feel like instead of an eternal flame at your grave should just be a speaker of your voice wailing PRINCESS CYD IS SO GOOOOOD on repeat. Forever.” Add it to my will.

Ro: This thing happens in queer communities that I’m wondering if we could talk about, where I’ve noticed a lot of monogamous queer folks and monogamous relationships opening up their relationship rather than breaking up. And I think that is a huge mistake, and I know this because I have done it.

Christina: Okay, we love the wisdom of experience.

Theme song plays

Drew: Hi, I’m Drew!

Christina: I’m Christina!

Drew: Welcome to Wait, Is This a Date?

Christina: Wait, Is This a Date? is an Autostraddle podcast, all about the fun, fabulous, exhausting, whatever kind of adjective you feel like using, world of dating.

Drew: All of the above. My name is Drew Gregory. I’m a writer and a filmmaker. I write for Autostraddle.com, the website, where I do a lot of film and TV stuff, and also dating stuff. I am a trans lesbian.

Christina: I am Christina Tucker. I’m also a writer at Autostraddle. I am a lesbian on the Internet who is also a very tired experience today in this moment that’s feeling really beautiful, feeling really special, but I think we’re going to get somewhere fun today.

Drew: Yeah, I think that you’re bringing tiredness to a good episode because our main topic today is knowing when to break up. Fun stuff.

Christina: I am rather bafflingly just giving Drew a hang ten, famously podcasts are an audio medium, but it feels — just like transparency for our listeners that I am just kind of doing a hang ten. So we’ll see what happens today, I think.

Drew: That’s really brave of you to share. Really brave of you. Okay. Before we get to our main topic though, I have a game for us.

Christina: I bet you do!

Drew: Because we’re talking about breakups, I was thinking about more social breakups, existential breakups, scandals you might say, getting canceled. I mean, getting canceled, I think, actually usually means like there’s a little bit of drama and then everything’s fine. So I think these reflect that appropriately. And so I’m going to describe a scandal with a queer, and I want you to tell me if it is a real scandal that happened, or if me, Drew Gregory, wrote that. Okay?

Christina: I love this, and not only because you kind of just free associated with the idea of breakups, loving this energy.

Drew: Great. Thank you.

Christina: All right. I’m ready.

Drew: Okay. On the set of classic film, Charlie’s Angels, known abuser, Bill Murray, said to famed lesbian erotica painter, Lucy Lu, “You can’t act.” She started throwing punches and they had to be pulled off one another. Many believe this is why Murray was replaced by Bernie Mac in the sequel.

Christina: I believe this is true.

Drew: It is true.

Christina: As true as gossip stories can be, I suppose.

Drew: Sure. Yes. Thank you for really maintaining the journalistic integrity here, that the true ones are true in the sense that they were reported.

Christina: I think what we can use is it feels emotionally true that that occurred.

Drew: Yeah. Honestly, I think all of them feel emotionally true, but we’ll get to that.

Christina: Of course, you do.

Drew: Yes. Okay. Next up, Kate McKinnon faced backlash in April of 2019 when she was asked about ex-girlfriend, Bari Weiss. “We were young,” McKinnon said, “But I wish only the best for Bari. I love seeing her name pop up on my newsfeed.” Some felt McKinnon should have been much harsher toward Weiss, while others related to not wanting to get on the bad side of your most toxic ex.

Christina: Unfortunately this is true.

Drew: It’s not true.

Christina: Which isn’t true?

Drew: Kate McKinnon has never commented on Bari Weiss being her ex-girlfriend, which I think is really wise. I think she probably should continue to not comment on it because I can’t imagine that that would go well for her.

Christina: No good will come of her commenting on that, but in my head she already has, and, poorly, so.

Drew: Yeah. Okay. On March 3rd, 2014, power couple, Cara Delevingne and Michelle Rodriguez, got in trouble with PETA after pictures surfaced of them at the Big Cat Encounters Ranch. In one of the photos, Delevingne is kissing a six-month-old tiger on the head, even though the USDA explicitly bands kissing a tiger at that age. The owner of the ranch lost his conditional permit to house tigers.

Christina: I have no idea. I’m going to say that that did not happen.

Drew: It did happen.

Christina: Yeah, I should have known. I’ve been following Cara on Instagram for too long.

Drew: Yeah. I mean, I will say that I phrased it in a way, like — you cannot kiss a tiger at six months old, but it’s not only at six months. It is that after the age of three months, you cannot kiss a tiger, because after the age of three months they are very dangerous.

Christina: I’m going to take the kind of radical position that no human should be kissing tigers. Not to get political on our dating podcast, but that’s annoying. Yeah.

Drew: I think that’s really good. Yeah, it’s an important issue. Okay. Going back a little further in time. Upon moving to Hollywood, Marlene Dietrich made her husband, Rudolf Sieber… Are you mocking me? Are you laughing at me? Okay, live away from her on a ranch in the San Fernando Valley. When he got his girlfriend pregnant, Dietrich insisted the woman get an abortion to avoid any scandal, even though they were married in name only. She then had Sieber moved back into her home where he acted as her butler.

Christina: I want this to be true. And also full transparency, I was laughing because you had said, “Let’s go back a little further back in time,” and then said Marlene Dietrich, who was alive in, like, the thirties, so quite a bit further. I’m going to say that this is true because it feels, to me, emotionally true.

Drew: It is true.

Christina: Great. Yeah.

Drew: Or at least this is what Marlene Dietrich’s daughter said happened.

Christina: Iconic. Incredible.

Drew: In a memoir about how awful a mother Marlene Dietrich was. So I think there’s a bias here, which makes me wonder if Sunset Boulevard is based on the relationship between Norma Desmond and her butler, if that’s based on Marlene Dietrich. This is what I was thinking about today.

Christina: Loving your day, for you.

Drew: Thanks. Okay. Next up, on February 14th, 2000, Anne Heche and Ellen DeGeneres attempted to apply for a marriage license in the state of Vermont. When they were denied, Heche began screaming at the registrar and they were removed from the county clerk’s office. DeGeneres stated that she was not aware of Heche’s plan and had merely accompanied her girlfriend for a “Valentine’s day surprise.” They broke up soon after.

Christina: I don’t believe that’s true.

Drew: It’s not — it’s so hard not to laugh! It’s not true, but I just really enjoyed picturing it. That one, to me, does feel emotionally true. That feels like what their dynamic would be, and I just can see Ellen DeGeneres throwing her girlfriend under the bus in the midst of a scandal.

Christina: I can see parts of that happening I think, Anne Heche having some kind of Vermont-based yelling experience, I can absolutely see. But I can’t see Ellen talking to press about it.

Drew: That’s a really good point. She would’ve said nothing. Good catch, good catch. Okay. This is the last one. In November of 2013, a group of South Dakotan ranchers demanded Joan Jett be removed from South Dakota’s official float in the Macy’s Thanksgiving Day Parade due to Jett being vegan. The organizers of the South Dakota float complied and Jett did not participate. One rancher said, “I call this a win for South Dakota and for beef producers everywhere.”

Christina: Wow. So many words that were in that that I didn’t expect. South Dakota, frankly, really threw me. I’m going to have to go ahead and say that that is not true.

Drew: It is true!

Christina: Great, incredible. I am happy for… Actually I don’t know who I’m happiest for in that scenario.

Drew: Oh, God. I had so much fun putting this together. Thank you for playing with me. Okay, the other thing that I learned, but this felt a little intense and also it’s not really a scandal because it’s not Jodie Foster’s fault, but did you know that Jodie Foster had a second stalker after John Hinckley Jr?

Christina: I did know that.

Drew: Okay. I didn’t know this, but the detail that I love the most from her Wikipedia page that — when you go to the article, it’s phrased a little bit differently, but on Wikipedia it says that the second stalker went to Yale, where she was at school, to kill her, but then decided not to after watching her college play.

Christina: When you see talent, you have to respect it.

Drew: I just think it’s so funny, the idea of going to a college theater performance and being like, “Yeah, I’m not going to kill this person because of that.”

Christina: Yeah. I didn’t know it was possible for a college theater performance to make that much of a difference in a person’s life.

Drew: I mean, that’s really what I’m getting at here.

Christina: Yeah, it’s beautiful.

Drew: Okay. Well, I’m a real fun world in the queer celebrity gossip and also, I guess, almost attempted murders. Now, it’s time to move on to hopefully a brighter topic, or maybe not, which is — look, I think breakups are a brighter topic than murder! Do you disagree?

Christina: Yeah. I think no one’s going to argue with you on that categorization specifically, fair enough.

Drew: Thank you. So you’re ready? Let’s do this.

Christina: Let’s absolutely do this.

Drew: Today, we are joined by a very special guest. Very special guest, do you want to introduce yourself?

Ro: Sure! Hi, I am Ro White and I write for Autostraddle. I’m also the editor for our Slick series, which is our erotica series. And I teach sex ed, and I talk about dating a lot.

Christina: We love that. That’s the perfect experience and energy to bring right here to Wait, Is This a Date?

Ro: I am so thrilled to be here.

Christina: Talking about breakups? We’re going to have so much fun. The lightest topic of all, breakups.

Ro: Breakups are the best.

Christina: Yeah. They really can be, is the thing.

Drew: I want you to expand on that, because that feels genuine and I like that.

Ro: Yeah. I think we think of breakups as a terrible thing. And of course, they’re hard. But there is something really freeing about imagining your life a certain way and then moving in another direction. I think it’s similar to when someone quits a job. Sometimes there’s this feeling of relief and elation that goes along with just making a different choice for your life, especially when you find yourself going down a path that isn’t going to work for you. So I think whenever we either give ourselves the power to make that choice or whether that choice is just given to us by a partner, it can be a really beautiful life-changing thing.

Christina: Yeah. I super agree. I also think there’s a weird narrative that if we’ve broken up, that means everything about our relationship didn’t work and we have to look back on it with, okay, it was a terrible experience in my life, no matter how the actual relationship was. I don’t know that ending things necessarily means that the whole thing was bad. It just meant it wasn’t working anymore. And that’s okay. I have been seeing more willingness to talk like that and think of breakups like that, because I feel like for a while it was very just like, well, if you break up, then it’s over and that person was bad and your relationship was bad. That’s such a boring binary way to think about relationships and what we are to people.

Ro: Yeah. It feels like a very straight culture thing too, at least in my experience, I feel like my straight friends are the ones who are more likely to say, “Well, fuck that person, that person sucks if I end a relationship with someone.” Whereas queer people in my life are the ones who are more likely to maintain friendships with exes, or at least just see our exes in a holistic way.

Christina: Yeah. I suppose, I will say some of my straight friends I have been like, “Well, yeah. You got to say fuck that person and move on.”

Drew: Yeah. I guess, I think it’s so interesting. The idea that you meet someone, be it on a dating app or through a friend or whatever, and then you spend three years with them, share a life with them, share a space with them. That’s such a success to me. That is an incredible, remarkable thing that could happen. But I guess that’s because I’m not thinking about my life in a way where my end goal is — not that I don’t want to get married or I’m not open to getting married — but I don’t see my life in this linear sort of heteronormative, like getting married is this step of adulthood, or this thing that I’m looking for. And then once I’ve found it, I’m good to go. That’s not how I approach dating or am approaching my life. Whereas I guess if you are approaching your life for what you want is one partner for forever, then, yeah. I guess breakups feel like more of a failure.

Christina: I think that’s probably true for people, that if you’re on one linear path to marriage, then every breakup is not a success, because you didn’t end up getting married, unless you get married to every person and then break up with them, but that seems very chaotic to me.

Drew: I would love to be divorced. I shouldn’t say that because I’m sure for people who are actually divorced… I do feel like, I don’t know, maybe it’s a queer thing, but when I find out that people are divorced, I just feel like, “Oh, you’ve lived a whole life, haven’t you,” as opposed to, I think maybe in straight culture where it’s like, “Oh, well, you failed.” I’m like, “Oh, good for you. You had a relationship that mattered, theoretically.”

Christina: Yeah.

Ro: Yeah. I mean, you also made a choice to enter into a financial contract with a partner and then end it in a way that may have been really difficult and messy. So I think that’s the extra layer that marriage adds to relationships in addition to all of those social cultural pressures.

Drew: For sure.

Christina: Yeah. I mean, at the end of the day, kids, a marriage is a business proposal. So that’s what we have to say here at this podcast.

Drew: Yeah. I want to talk about knowing when to break up, because this is something that I think about a lot. I think maybe… I was trying to decide how personal to get, which is hilarious if you know what the previous episodes of the show have been. I guess, I think that my most recent serious relationship, like my ex, I know that she thinks that it was pretty sudden. I think that’s just so interesting because I believe in working on relationships and I believe in putting the time in it, that every relationship has problems, especially if you spend a lot of time with someone, like giving it a chance to work. But I also, because I can view a three-year long relationship that ends as a success, I don’t understand making it a four-year long relationship that wasn’t a success? I don’t understand the desire to elongate things past the point where it feels like they just aren’t working.

Christina: Yeah. I definitely feel the same way. I wonder if it’s that people are not necessarily great at knowing when it is beyond workable help. When that feeling feels like, okay, we could do some work here, but at the end of the day what would that really accomplish? Would it just be better to separate and go our separate ways, than try to do this and maybe poison the well of our friendship going forward or what our relationship meant before? I feel like that, people are more hesitant to let go. I think people are probably just scared of being alone in a big way.

Ro: Yeah. I think ending relationships feels like a bigger deal in some ways in the queer community, because for us, our partners are more likely to become our chosen family. Whereas for straight folks who might have closer connections to blood family, et cetera, that’s less of a thing. I mean, especially for queer women and trans folks who are less likely to have disposable income, a lot of us, we move in together. We make all of those choices where we fully integrate our lives financially and socially. And so then the idea of ending something like that, it doesn’t just mean ending a relationship. It means breaking up your whole social circle, it means finding a place to live when maybe you can’t afford to live on your own. It’s a mess and a disaster. I get why people don’t do it soon enough.

Christina: Yeah. It’s like, okay, so I’m going to break up with this person, but actually breaking up with this person means entirely reorienting my life. That’s a bigger swallow. I get that. I totally feel that.

Drew: I think that’s probably why my two major breakups have happened when we were in a phase of long distance. It was like, we sort of already started the shift in our lives being separate and not to say that… I think in both situations we wanted the relationship to work, but I do think in retrospect, and maybe this is something I will take responsibility for, but just in that, maybe I manifest that a little bit? Maybe there’s part of me that starts to create that separation, which I guess if any future people I’m dating are listening to this and they’re like, “Oh, Drew’s moving away for a job. So I guess our relationship’s over.” But it just like — look, I don’t have a huge sample size, but that is what my experience has been. It still was super difficult, but the difference of the difficulty of like, okay, we’re permanently moving away from each other, versus if we… because I was living with my former partner and if we had broken up while sharing that space, that would’ve been a much more challenging experience.

Christina: Yeah. My last serious breakup was right before my ex moved. And we knew she was moving — that was a thing, that’s part of the narrative. We kind of talked about how we weren’t particularly interested in doing long distance. So those last few months were kind of just like, “So we’re just going to call this at some point?” This is weird, just kind of living in this knowledge that this will end at some point. And then I decided that that point was Halloween. I can’t express to you enough how much of a bad idea it is to break up on Halloween, sitting on your stoop at 6:00 PM, because children will be trick-or-treating, and they will be confused that you have no candy to give them, but instead lesbian sadness. They will be very perplexed.

Drew: It’s a trick! Trick or treat, you know?

Christina: It was certainly a trick. Let me tell you what, we could have literally gone anywhere else, just not that one space would have been fine.

Drew: Yeah. Ro, do you have any bad breakup stories that you feel comfortable sharing?

Ro: I think overall, so right now my girlfriend and I say R and r when we’re talking about relationships. So when I’m saying R, I’m talking about the relationships that have been significant, sort of maybe long-term, but maybe just very important, like we were “a thing.” And then r is the casual kind of relationships. So of the Rs of mine that have ended, I absolutely believe that each of them could have and should have ended sooner. I think I fell into that trap that I was talking about earlier of, “Well, ending this means completely reorienting my life, and I don’t really feel prepared to do that right now.” I don’t think I had that thought consciously. This was the thing that I realized after the fact every single time.

Christina: Yeah. That’s one of those things that you’re like, loved if that learning had come in a little quicker.

Ro: Yeah. I mean, I get really invested in my relationships. I love caring for other people, whether those are partners or friends. And the idea of ending something like that has felt really scary for me. But the times when I have made the choice to end those relationships or when that choice was made for me, I have felt great about it every single time, which feels weird to say. Of course, I’ve been sad, but I’ve also had this part of me that has felt absolutely elated after every breakup of like, oh, I’m free to make this other choice with my life.

Christina: Yeah. I think that the weird thing about breakups, especially when you think about all the things that people can compromise in relationships and how you can have conversations, but it’s like, one person wants to break up, that’s the end of the relationship. There’s no halfway, there’s no like, oh, can we compromise? Can you meet me halfway on this one? It’s like, nope, that’s actually one thing a person gets to kind of unilaterally decide for your relationship if it’s over.

Drew: Yeah. And if your partner is the person who you go to and rely on when things are tough, it can be really challenging. I think this is a cliche, queer breakup of using the person who broke your heart as emotional support and how that does not really work. But I think it’s pretty natural when you have previously been relying on them, and it can be one of the challenges where you feel sad. And then you’re like, well, I want to call this person to talk about how I feel sad. And it’s like, that’s the exact person you should not call. That can be a little bit of a challenge. I’m very good at — again, this, I think, gets me into a little bit of trouble, that I’m very good at compartmentalizing. I’m not good at saying “compartmentalize,” but I’m going at doing it, in the sense that if I say to myself it is not healthy for me to check this person’s Instagram, I will meet them and I will not check their Instagram. I really can make myself do that. It doesn’t mean that I don’t have a lot of feelings about it. I think this is something that I’ve had a hard time communicating sometimes to people is like, I can feel a lot and I can feel really sad and I can feel a real loss and someone can mean a lot to me. But if I’ve made the decision in my brain that what we need is to not be together or if I’ve decided that we need a space or if I’ve decided, whatever, I can keep those commitments to myself and hold those boundaries pretty strictly.

Christina: That’s because you got a lot of earth sign up in that chart maybe. That’s what that is, because I am the exact same way. I’m like, “No, I’ve made the decision and now that’s over. We’re done with that. We are moving away from that space.”

Drew: Yeah. Ro, what’s your chart? I don’t remember.

Ro: I am an Aries Sun and a Sagittarius Moon and a Scorpio Rising.

Drew: Wow. That’s fun.

Christina: Wow. That is a chaotic chart. I really enjoy that. I like that a lot. That’s some fun energy.

Ro: It’s really like, if you look at my whole chart, it’s quite balanced. It’s kind of all over the place, which I really appreciate about myself, because I think there are definitely parts of me that are like big Aries vibes, but I have many friendships with other Aries people, and have had relationships with other Aries people, or I was like, “Oh, God, too much Aries.” So I’m glad that that’s not across the board my deal.

Christina: Yeah. That’s why we don’t do any sunshine shaming on this podcast because we love a full chart. We need to understand every facet of a person.

Ro: I’m a whole person. I’m not just an Aires.

Christina: We are here respecting and loving that person that you are.

Ro: Thank you very much.

Christina: Anytime.

Ro: Do you want to try to answer the question of when you know it’s time to break up? Because I feel like that’s a question that we get very often at Autostraddle in our advice box. I feel like I’m constantly telling people to break up, and I feel like such a downer when I do it, but I think it’s the right advice.

Drew: Yeah. Okay, there are things to consider. If you have spent 10 years with someone and you share a life and all those things we talked about, financially, et cetera, you’re entangled with them and you’re like, we’re having problems, should we break up? Maybe there are reasons not to if it’s a first thought that you’re having. But it’s wild to me, the amount of times we get questions where they’re like, “I love my girlfriends so much. We’ve been together for two months. They treat me like absolute shit, should we break up?” And it’s like, “Yes, you should break up!” I know that you love this person, but you don’t really know that. I mean, you do, but you know them in this very certain way. And also you could walk away so easily right now. All those other things we were talking about aren’t happening. I mean, I would even say to someone who’s been married for 10 years, if you’ve been questioning, should we break up for a good chunk of time, yeah. I just think that that’s one of those questions — it’s like, “Am I gay?” It’s like, not a lot of people who are straight are walking around being like, “Am I gay? Am I gay? Am I gay? Am I gay?” So I think similarly it’s like, “Should we break up? Should we break up? Should we break up? Should we break up?” Yes.

Christina:
Yeah. I think that’s probably why we have such a high hit rate of saying, “Yes, you should break up,” because every time someone writes in asking should they break up, I’m like, “Well, you took the time to write this and ask somebody.” I’m like, “Yeah, you probably should if that’s where your head is at, then my gut says it’s probably time for you to break up, right now.”

Drew: But it’s also, I think the one thing that complicates it for me is that I know that I have never been in a relationship where I’ve talked about breaking up with the person throughout the… But I’ve witnessed that in friends who have good relationships where it’s just the way that they function more is a little bit more volatile and has a little bit more conflict. I’m really hesitant to get in a relationship, and maybe it’s an earth sign thing, but I’m very cautious about entangling my life in that way. And not just financially, but even in the sense of associating with someone. And then the way of introducing someone to my friends, and being like, this is someone who I care about and I want to bring them into your life. I just can be pretty hesitant about that. And so if I’m with someone, usually we’re compatible in a way where… I also don’t want a lot of conflict in my relationship, because then I just would be single. And so I want conflict in my flirtations. That’s really fun. But if I want to share a space with someone, I’m like, I don’t want — if we get into fight, it should not go to, so are we going to break up? Anytime that I’ve gotten into a fight with a partner, the assumption is we’re going to talk through it, we’re going to work through it. My definition of a fight in these circumstances is I think some people’s definition of a discussion. I don’t really like fight with my partners. And so I’m not the kind of person who would be in this head space of, “Should we break up? Should we not break up?” Because when I get in that head space, I do it. Yeah. I mean, if I have a passing thought, not necessarily if it’s like, oh, I am sort of annoyed at this person, maybe we were not good together. I’ve had those thoughts obviously, and then stayed in relationships. But even then, usually six months later or something, those passing thoughts are starting to come back more and I realized that that was sort of a sign of things to come. I don’t think you have to walk away the second you have a doubt, but I don’t know.

Christina: It’s a little file for later, put it on the record, the record of your mind, some might say.

Ro: Yeah. I think a lot of us have those record scratch moments where you identify a difference in values with your partner, whether it’s a difference in values that has always existed, or suddenly your partner has changed their values or desires. I think those moments can be pretty like make-or-break depending on how important that value is to you. I think those are really important to pay attention to when you’re trying to figure out, do I want to stay with this person or do I not? I mean, I’ve even told people before and have myself made a list of all of my values. I’ve made a list of the things that are important to a person I’m dating to determine, is there compatibility here? Or is this just never going to work down the line for whatever reason?

Christina: Yeah. I think there’s the values aspect of it and then there’s that moment where you’re having a conversation or you’re having a fight and you’re like, we are talking about two wildly different experiences and I don’t know that we’re ever actually going to be able to get on the same page with how you see me in this space or how you think that I react to things, or what you think my emotional shortcomings are, or too much — those kinds of moments where you’re like, “Oh, maybe this person actually doesn’t see or understand who I am.” That can be very troubling. It’s something that I think that people are better at talking themselves out of, that mattering, as opposed to being like, oh, well, this person’s values don’t line up with mine. So we simply won’t be dating anymore. It’s like, if someone can’t understand you emotionally, despite you being very clear about it. That’s also really going to matter down the line.

Drew: Yeah. I also think circumstance and timing is huge. I think it’s going to be really interesting as things open up post-pandemic or this fluid in-between space of pandemic and post-pandemic, where I think that it’s perfectly lovely if you met someone during the pandemic and are dating them. I mean, I sort of am. So it’s like, that’s fine, but I do think that it’s going to be interesting and we’re all going to have to adjust to this idea of now that what our day-to-day lives look like is different, some relationships will work better and some I think will not work at all. We’re just going to have to be prepared for that and be ready to adjust to that. I mean, I know that for me in my last relationship, I like to be sort of self-deprecating and take responsibility in the way that it’s important to take responsibility. But I also think in this joking about like, oh, it was because we were long distance and I was running away and whatever. And it’s like, yeah. But also what it was is that our circumstances just changed. When I was working a job that took up all my time, our relationship didn’t really work, as opposed to when I was soon-to-be college grad, post-college grad, sort of floaty space where I was very available and we were very sort of intertwined, our relationship really worked. That was great. Because that’s where I was at in that period of time, and that was lovely. But because I know myself and I know that I’m an ambitious person and that more of my life is going to be spent very busy with work stuff and very consumed with all these other things than it is going to be in that sort of floaty, in-between, post-college space. I was like, “Oh, this relationship isn’t going to work moving forward.” That is no judgment on the way that it worked when circumstances were different, but just am making the call that like, yeah. If I’m looking at this and my choices are this relationship works when I’m behaving this way, when I’m leading this kind of life and I’m looking at my next year, or my next 10 years, the rest of my life, and it’s looking a lot more like this other circumstance that doesn’t seem to work, then it just sort of became clear and becomes clear to me that it was just time.

Christina: Yeah. I think that’s true. I totally function similarly thought wise, but I do think that is circumstance breakups. People have a really hard time conceptualizing that your relationship could, for the most part, still be fine. What you feel about that person could not change, but something as dumb as a circumstance could just really get in your way. That’s not great, but it is a very valid reason for a breakup. I just find my friends who have gone through breakups like that, those are the ones that they are so resistant to breaking up, because they’re like, “No, this one thing shouldn’t be the thing that takes us down.” I get that. I get wanting to feel that way, but unfortch, circumstances are kind of the whole thing.

Drew: Yeah. I think it would be helpful if people realized that oftentimes circumstance breakups aren’t circumstance breakups, they’re priority breakups, people are making decisions about what — I don’t think you should not take a job in order to stay closer to your partner or whatever, but some people would make that decision. And also some relationships could do perfectly fine long distance, and they wouldn’t need to break up because of that circumstances change. And if the circumstance is more connected to like, oh, I don’t know. It’s hard sometimes to be in a relationship when a lot of tragedy has happened or other challenges. It’s like, okay, but that again isn’t a circumstance, that’s revealing that this relationship wasn’t meant to continue through this aspect of life that is going to happen and is going to be part of life.

Ro: Yeah. I don’t know — what made me think of this was when you were talking about people being resistant to a circumstance breakup, it’s making me think about all of these long drawn out breakups that I’ve encountered, either in my own life or that I’ve seen in friends lives or that I’ve seen in the Autostraddle advice box. This thing happens in queer communities that I wonder if we could talk about, where I’ve noticed a lot of monogamous queer folks in monogamous relationships, opening up their relationship rather than breaking up. I think that is a huge mistake. I know this because I have done it.

Christina: Okay. We love the wisdom of experience.

Ro: I mean, I certainly don’t think it’s always a bad thing to open up a monogamous relationship. I think that’s awesome when both partners are on board, but I’m seeing it happen a lot of times when really there are other issues that need to get addressed and the assumption, because we’re queer and we’re sexually free is, “Well, let’s just fuck some other people and it’s going to be great,” and no, it’s not going to be great. It’s really not, unless your relationship is super solid.

Christina: Yeah. I definitely see a lot of that. People who have really never identified as being interested in being open or being poly are like, “Yeah, no, what’s going to happen is we’re going to be open and it’s going to be awesome.” Usually in my experience, there has been one partner who is very interested in this idea and another who is totally resistant, and I’m always like, that is a terrible combination of feelings and ways to go into this. And yeah, it never works, because even in an open relationship, that’s always when I’m like, “How did that person manage to cheat on you in an open relationship?” You had all of these rules and all of these things and this person still decided to not do that, to not follow those rules and managed to cheat in an open relationship? Which says to me, should have just broken up from the jump, probably.

Ro: Yep. I have been on the other end of that of being “cheated on” in an open relationship. It’s brutal when you’ve laid all of that groundwork. Unlike in a monogamous situation, unless you are a very good communicator, usually queer person who talks about what monogamy means to you, usually cheating is pretty like cut and dry. But when you’re in an open situation, you’ve established exactly what the boundaries are. And then when those get violated, it just cuts extra deep.

Drew: Yeah. I love to talk about approaches to the breakup itself. So far we’ve covered don’t do it on Halloween, sitting on the stoop at 6:00 PM.

Christina: Just do it inside if you want to do it on Halloween. You could just go right inside your little home, perfect place.

Drew: But you’re still probably going to get some doorbells. So I would maybe make a blanket. I mean, if you have to do it on Halloween. I mean, I would say holidays in general maybe, but also what I think is so terrible though is the like, oh, I’ll wait to do it after the holiday. No, do it beforehand. It’s better that… Also, holidays are… Well, obviously every circumstance is different, but in my head I’m like, even if my birthday is next week, break up with me beforehand because do you know what will ruin my birthday? Is my partner being there miserable, and it’s clear that we’re having problems. Do you know what could be a slightly more fun birthday? Out partying with my friends a week after a breakup feeling chaotic. So please just… I really am a firm believer of, as we’ve already said a million times, break up when you want to. Don’t be like, well, I have to wait till dah, dah, dah. There are exceptions, but that’s my proverbial.

Christina: It’s a slippery slope to start doing that, “Well, not today because —” then it’s suddenly like, no, you can’t be doing that.

Drew: Yeah. But I also bring this up because — I could still continue to use my own life and failures — I do think that something that I did wrong in my last serious relationship was, I didn’t want to break up, but I wasn’t honest about… It was one of those things where I was like, “Oh, we’re going to be open.” I think I could probably tell that I was more enthusiastic about that than my partner, and obviously if she had said, “No, I don’t want to.” I wouldn’t have. But I knew her well enough at that point to understand that what I was wanting and what she was wanting were probably a little bit different. I also understood that I just wasn’t being as good of a girlfriend as I had throughout. It’s funny because I never even hooked up with anyone else while we were together, but even just the way we were talking about it and whatever. I also think on the flip side of that, she was treating me differently in a way that was pretty negative. I think I was in denial about those things, and also that the relationship was coming to a close. So I just was like, well, I feel trapped and I feel like I’m being treated poorly. So I’m just going to pull away, which there’s the difference between, I can say, oh, well, every time I know that I want to break up, I do it. And it’s like, yeah. But I’m very good at lying to myself. I’m not good at lying to other people, but I’m very good at lying to myself. Part of that is that extended period of time where I just was pulling away and that’s not — I wasn’t checking in. I think that’s an important thing to do. And so I think part of the breakup maybe feeling sudden was that it was, even though it wasn’t sudden emotionally, that it was sudden in the sense that the minute that that was suggested as a possibility, I was like, “Oh, yeah. This is what we should do.”

Christina: That’s the one I want. I pick that one.

Drew: And then she was like, “Wait, no, that wasn’t…” I was like, “No, no, no, babe, that’s the one.” I heard the words out loud. I thought about it as a reality and I’m sobbing right now, but also that is absolutely the only option. I probably should have figured that out outside of that conversation on my own with some self-reflection earlier.

Christina: And then bring that to the table in a…

Drew: Yeah. I mean, look, relationships are so hard and breakups are so hard, and we’re all going to make mistakes and can not communicate perfectly 100% of the time and not know how we feel or not know how our partners feel all the time. But I do think for myself, I’m constantly trying to work towards a space of realizing that for me, the challenge of good communication is, on a large part communication with myself, that I think I’m pretty good at communicating with others, except for the fact that if I’m not communicating with myself I can’t communicate well with others, and acknowledging that is a real hindrance than something that I’m working on.

Christina: Ro, what’s your recipe for a perfect breakup? What do you need? What do you put into that little stew to create that?

Ro: I think when one is initiating a breakup, it is very important to say the actual words, “I want to break up” or “I want to end this relationship,” or something super clear. Because I think sometimes when we’re trying to be kind and considerate, we’re a little loosey-goosey with our language. And then the person we’re trying to break up with ends up having no idea what’s happened, they think you’re still together. Just say the words, it’s going to suck, but I think that clarity is super important, and being honest about your reasons as to why the relationship needs to end. I think that’s another area where we’re trying to be kind, we’re not honest about what those reasons are, and then the other person is left feeling really confused. I mean, obviously I think if someone is threatening your safety, you don’t owe them any reasons, you don’t know them any explanation, just get the hell out of there, but with someone that you do feel safe with but the relationship isn’t working anymore, a clear “we’re breaking up” and a clear reason or list of reasons is super important.

Christina: Yeah. The clear “we’re breaking up” really has got to be said. That is definitely a thing I have seen happen. Just like, oh, wait, oh, no, no, no. That’s a break up. Got to say those words out loud.

Ro: And then just setting up your expectations for what your relationship to each other will be like, post breakup is really important. Whether that happens in the context of the actual breakup conversation, or maybe that happens later. But I think that’s really important to establish too, because — and this is another queer community thing. We love to try to be friends with our exes, and sometimes that’s totally possible and beautiful and great. Sometimes that doesn’t work for us. And so I think we need to be really honest with ourselves and with each other about what friendship with exes looks like, and whether or not that’s something that serves us.

Christina: Yeah. I do think there’s such a difference. I have this conversation with a lot of my queer friends about, oh, we’re still friends. Okay, are you just not actively mad at one another? You’re not friends. There’s a difference between I’ve burned this bridge, leaving this relationship or this bridge has just kind of got old and doesn’t really work that well, but it’s still open if you need to use it. We don’t have to be the best of friends maybe, but we can still be in community. We can still be in contact. I think there is a little bit more space within those kinds of friends with exes spaces than many people tend to think that there are.

Drew: Yeah. Also, I think it’s tricky in establishing that sometimes, of being like … Or maybe I think what’s important is to communicate the trickiness in the sense that if you don’t know, I think it is okay to say I maybe someday want to be friends, but I just in this space right now don’t know if that’s what I want. Communicating that, I think, is okay because I think sometimes when emotions are high, you don’t really have an answer. Similarly, Ro, I’m curious if you have any thoughts on, I agree that it can be really helpful to give concrete reasons and to be really clear and to not do the thing where you’re trying to be nice. So you lie or you say whatever.

Drew: But obviously there is a balance, there is some tact involved or there is some… So I’m just curious in your experience or just generally what you suggest as far as trying to be clear while also, I don’t know, if you’re not going to be dating the person, your problems aren’t as important as if you were continuing to date the person. So, rehashing them more or making someone feel bad. I don’t know. I think I really struggle with this because I think I have a bit of a people-pleaser streak in me. And so I think it’s sometimes hard for me to communicate those reasons.

Ro: Yeah. I think it’s important to include with your “these are the reasons why we’re breaking up” list. These are the things that helped me grow that I appreciated about our relationship. I think that’s important to acknowledge, but I think actually, I don’t even know if I’m answering your question. Your question is how to be clear about those reasons?

Drew: More like how do you find the balance between when should something be said versus when is it like… I just think about in break up mode, especially when you’re the one breaking up with someone and if they’re still in love with you and to list off the things that are wrong about them, the idea of being like, oh, well, I want to break up because I feel like you’re this. I mean, maybe it’s like an I-statement situation, or it’s better to be like “I feel this” instead of being like, “You are this way, so fuck you.”

Christina: Yeah. I think it should be less of like an airing of grievances, more of like “here are the reasons in which this does not work for me,” and kind of focus it that way instead of “the way you chew burritos makes me want to jump off a bridge.” I think there’s less of that energy.

Ro: Yeah, absolutely. I-statements are the key. And you are right, it should be the things that are not working for you. Specifically, I think acknowledging patterns is really important and acknowledging them from an I-statement place. So instead of saying, “You always forget to text me back and that’s why we’re breaking up,” you can say, “I have noticed a pattern where you don’t text me back. Communication is really important to me. I’ve talked to you about it several times. And so this is not going to work.” That’s a terrible reason to break up with someone, just “you don’t text back on time.”

Drew: No, but communication styles being different is a reasonable thing. I mean, I do think that’s a good example in the sense that something that could totally work for someone else doesn’t work for you. I mean, that’s how I felt. Every R relationship that I’ve been in, I feel really positively about all those people and I really only wish them the best regardless of how close or not close we are in each other’s lives or whatever, I really feel like they are great people and there are people out there who are super well-suited for them and it just wasn’t me. And so when I think about the problems in those relationships, so much of it’s about compatibility. So much of it’s like, oh, well, we just weren’t working together. It’s not. And not to say that again, there are obviously relationships where someone is particularly treating the other person poorly or whatever, but I think a lot of times it’s just we are not working. We are bringing out the worst in each other and we could find other people who we’d have really great relationships with. And so it doesn’t have to be like a judgment of your desirability or of your ability to be in a relationship. It’s just that for those individual people, they are not a compatible couple or group.

Christina: Yeah. I think that tracks. I think it’s like finding the thing that feels like the petty grievance and kind of tracing it back to its source of like, what is it — the not-texting is actually about our communication style, or the way that you don’t listen is also about how I feel valued, those kinds of things. I think that’s the important… chase that back to the source so you can come up with a good I-statement of feeling.

Drew: Yeah.

Christina: Did we just crush breakups?

Drew: I think we just solved breakups. So you’re all ready to go break up, have fun!

Christina: Okay. Let’s go break up.

Drew: Okay. Well, then we’re going to move to our next segment, which is Crush Corner, where we say who we’re crushing on this week. Ro, do you want to go first?

Ro: Yes. I have a controversial crush.

Drew: Ohhh!

Christina: Oh, we love that.

Ro: I’m crushing on Demi Lovato right now.

Drew: I approve.

Christina: What’s the controversy?

Ro: The controversy, did you read about that frozen yogurt stuff that happened?

Christina: Yeah. That’s just because celebrities shouldn’t speak out loud a lot of the time, is the problem with that. She has a lot of feelings and not necessarily the knowledge to know how to communicate those feelings out to the world. I’ve been there.

Ro: Yeah. I mean, I understand as someone who is also in eating disorder recovery like Demi Lovato, I understand where those feelings came from. They were really not well executed. So this is why they’re my controversial crush. I mean, I’m crushing on Demi Lovato, mostly because of the suits, they’ve been rocking these amazing suits. They have an incredible haircut. I’ve always been a fan and I’m just stoked on Demi.

Drew: I love that.

Christina: I have been a person who has, since “Cool for the Summer” came out, said that “Cool for the Summer” was the song of the summer every single year. So they have given me genuinely the summer anthem of my late twenties into my early thirties. I thank them for that.

Ro: Beautiful.

Drew: And I thank them for Glee. So we all have our—

Christina: Wow. To pull a late season Glee, wow.

Drew: Yeah. The only good thing about… I mean, really just—

Christina: That’s really true. Oh, you don’t think it was Sarah Jessica Parker, “Let’s Have a Kiki?”

Drew: Oh, God, the fact that that’s not even — we don’t need to get into it. It’s only season four. There’s two more. It’s a nightmare. Anyways, Christina, who’s your crush for the week?

Christina: I’m going with Janelle Monáe, because Janelle Monáe, whenever she decides to post on Instagram, it literally just gives me a heart attack and stops me from functioning throughout the rest of the day. It’s not consistent, it’s just whenever she feels like it. Today there was just like a very sexual post with like a, put this on your mood board. I was like, “Okay. That’s not my life, but I want it. I will. Thank you, Janelle. And talk about a person who rocks suits, like, go the hell off. So Janelle Monáe is hot. Hot take.

Drew: Did you see her live, like, where the cigar was from? Like that, did you see it?

Christina: Yes, I did. It really rocked kind of my reality perceptions.

Drew: Okay. Just wanted to make sure. Cool.

Christina: Who are you crushing on this week?

Drew: Okay. So we have our first in a Wait, Is This A Date history, because my crush this week is Ro, because I rewatched Princess Cyd this week, and I want to talk about Princess Cyd because I love it so much, which Ro knows that I love it so much. I rewatched it with the person who I’m virtually dating, and the whole time just was freaking out and just was like, it’s that thing where watching a movie with someone and being like, this is the best, isn’t this amazing? Isn’t this a good scene? Just constantly turning to the person. That was my energy. I feel like that movie is like if you took the two halves of myself and made them like aunt and niece and then had them gently argue for 90 minutes. So I really love the movie, and Ro’s great in it and it’s… I think most people have seen it, but if you haven’t seen it, you should see it.

Christina: I fully co-sign.

Drew: Yeah. It’s very, very good.

Christina: I really love this late-stage chaos that Drew decided to bring in here at this moment. I think that was good, because you know what there is in Drews’ chart? Sagittarius.

Drew: Yes. There is. Sag Venus!

Ro: I believe that. I mean, it’s appropriate that you have brought it up because I broke up with acting somewhat recently, which was a great choice for me, but I loved making Princess Cyd. I’m so proud of it. I love that it’s in the world, and I love that you love it, Drew.

Drew: Thank you. Thanks for being a part of it and making it exist and making it so good. Okay. So, do you want to let people know where they can find you?

Ro: Oh sure. You can find me at Autostraddle by searching for Ro White, you can find my articles there. And you can find me on Twitter @munrowhite, that’s M-U-N-R-O White. And then I don’t know if you feel like popping on over to Instagram, you can find me at @internationalmisterpleather. Mr. is all spelled out.

Drew: Perfect.

Christina: Incredible.

Drew: And so then the last thing that we do like because we really value clarity here, we really like to be just up front and—

Christina: Open and honest.

Drew: Yeah, and change the culture among queer people. And so we like to ask at the end of every session, just a little check-in, was this a date?

Christina: Right now, were we just on a date? I mean, we could have been, we just wanted to ask.

Ro: Are you asking me?

Christina: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Ro: I mean, I’m not really dressed for a date.

Christina: Okay. That’s a really beautiful answer.

Drew: That’s my favorite answer so far.

Christina: That one’s really good actually.

Ro: Yeah. I am not appropriately dressed. Also, my air conditioning unit has been off for this recording, so I’m extremely sweaty. But I guess a date can be really sweaty. So, I honestly don’t know.

Drew: Sometimes you don’t, but I love that answer.

Christina: A lot of the times we’re learning we don’t know. Look, I believe we’re going to get there one day.

Drew: I think what’s great is that we’ve decided to end each of our podcast episodes by making our guests uncomfortable. I think it’s a really beautiful—

Christina: I think it’s so brave.

Drew: Yeah, I think so. Well, thank you so much for being here with us and thank you everyone for listening. Now, go break up with your person. And if you said, “No, I don’t want to.” Great, then you shouldn’t. That’s the trick.

Christina: Yeah. Perfect.

Drew: If you said, “I don’t know, maybe I should.” Then—

Christina: You should. Unfortunately you should.

Drew: Thank you so much for listening to Wait, Is This a Date? You can find us on Twitter and Instagram @waitisthisadate and you can also email us at waitisthisadate@gmail.com.

Drew: And you can find me on Twitter, Instagram, and TikTok @draw_gregory. And you can find Autostraddle on all social medias @autostraddle.

Christina: And go visit autostraddle.com because that’s the reason we’re all here today.

Drew: Thank you all so much and see you next week.

Christina: Yeah. We’ll absolutely see you next week, and we can’t wait.

Drew: Yeah, and maybe next week will be a date.

Christina: Hey, maybe it will be. Wilder things have happened.

Christina: The gayest thing about this podcast is that the outro is a boundary.

Drew, in a voice memo: I’m ready to have a new ex. I mean, I’m also ready to have a new partner, and I don’t need that to end right away. But I am also ready for the future, however long it is in the future, when I’m like, “Oh, my ex,” and I’m talking about a different person. I just get so bored when I have the same ex. I do sort of feel like after a certain point, you do only have sort of one ex, everyone else is just like someone you once dated. At least for me, I only have room for one person to occupy the role of “my ex,” you know?

“To L and Back” Gen Q Podcast Episode 206: Love Shack

There are few things I love more in this world than a karaoke night. This dates back to college when I stumbled into a karaoke night during an ill-advised Wednesday night out before finals week, and found a KJ playing saxophone while a regular named Rapper John performed “Gangnam Style.” And (sadly, devastatingly) there is nothing that seems more ill-advised right now, in the middle of the ongoing pandemic, than being in a sweaty room full of strangers who are yelling their faces off to “Mr. Brightside.” But luckily for all of us, there is no Covid in the world of The L Word and so there is nothing stressful about being at a bar, singing karaoke – except of course, for all the drama that could ensue.

And ensue it does! Eyes are made across the bar, fights are had, drinks are sent. Big romantic gestures are made, and it cannot be said enough that, through it all, Gigi wears an absolutely absurd sweater. What a gift

SHOW NOTES

Riese’s recap for Episode 206: Love Shack
There are only 21 lesbian bars left, and Drew went to two of them this very summer! Check out the Lesbian Bar Project!
Leisha Haley was in The Murmurs and Uh Huh Her.
She also was in a movie called All Over Me, and that movie was in the TV Team’s Top 10 Coming of Age Lesbian or Bisexual Films list, and Riese’s Top 10 LGBTQ movies list
More than one person in this episode could benefit from this advice on how to end something casual
For fun, as a treat, please read Kayla’s speculation on which songs everyone in The L Word would sing at karaoke
And for another treat, her essay on the power of weekly karaoke nights
What’s everyone’s favorite karaoke song? I always go for “Man, I Feel Like a Woman”

Drew: Hi, I’m Drew!

Analyssa: I’m Analyssa!

Riese: And I’m Riese.

Drew: And this is—

Drew, Analyssa, and Riese: To L and Back: Generation Q!

Riese: Oh my God. We did it!

Drew: We did it all at the same time, because this is such a special episode. We are all sitting in the same room for the first time in so long.

Analyssa: A momentous occasion.

Riese: And this is exciting for most of us, and for all of you at home, but it’s mostly exciting for Carol.

Drew: Carol’s sitting in my lap right now.

Analyssa: Carol loves having friends.

Riese: Carol is so excited.

Drew: I was, as I’ve maybe talked about, I was in Cincinnati for most of the summer, and then I was in New York, and then I was in Toronto, and then I was in Philly, and that was first. I don’t know, I was traveling around. And then I drove from New York to LA with a couple of friends and got in yesterday. And I’m so happy to be back in LA. I do want to shout out a couple of people who I met at a lesbian bar in Denver: Darren, Shar, Jasmine, Sophia, it was so nice meeting you all. And I wish that LA had a bar like that. It’s pretty wild that more cities don’t have lesbian bars and that there’s only 21 that exists according to—

Analyssa: Is it 21 now? I thought it was… The last number I knew was 26.

Drew: According to the Lesbian Bar Project, it’s 21.

Riese: I thought it was five.

Drew: No, it’s 21. I mean, so the one in Columbus was the other one I went to — Columbus, Ohio, and that’s also a pizza place.

Riese: Which one is that? Is that Slammers?

Drew: That’s Slammers.

Riese: That’s convenient.

Drew: Yeah. So it’s a pizza place/lesbian bar. I didn’t get to really enjoy that one as much because we got there right as it was closing. So we sort of got to go in, see it, and then they were like, “We’re not serving you a drink.” And we’re like, “That’s cool. We came in at closing.”

Analyssa: I lived in Columbus for two weeks and I did not go to Slammers, but I wanted to. Maybe if I lived there for three weeks, I would have made it.

Drew: It’s okay.

Riese: So speaking of lesbian bars.

Drew: Should we get into this episode?

Riese: Yes, let’s do it! There’s so much to talk about.

Drew: So this is Gen Q episode 206. It is directed by Katrelle N. Kindred, who’s directed episodes of Good Trouble and The Chi, as well as some shorts. It is written by Marja-Lewis Ryan, who you know, and it’s also written by Lisa Quintela, who — this is her first TV writing job, but previously was an entertainment and culture writer for Entertainment Weekly, among other places. And also she has a BFA from Tisch, so I do feel like this person and I have a lot in common, and that’s exciting to me as someone who someday would love to write for Generation Q. The other person who wrote on this episode was Julia Hannafin. And this is also her first TV writing job and is otherwise a fiction writer. This is pretty common where new or staff writers will have their first credit on an episode with the show runner. That’s sort of a pretty normal first episode credit situation.

Riese: So that’s how it’ll be for me when…

Drew: Yes, when you’re also writing. We’ll be the two — it’ll be the two of us and Marja writing the Christmas episode.

Analyssa: In many ways, Riese is like the showrunner of this podcast, and Drew and I originally were like staff writers.

Drew: Yeah, exactly.

Riese: Yeah, it was kind of like that.

Analyssa: Now we keep getting episodes. We’ve really been crushing.

Drew: Look at us. Oh, and this episode’s called “Love Shack,” which we know why, because—

Riese: Yeah. That’s what they sang at karaoke.

Drew: Well, I was going to say—

Riese: Sorry, spoiler.

Drew: I was going to say we’re going to get there, but yeah.

Riese: Everyone already knows.

Drew: That’s true.

Riese: They’ve already seen it.

Drew: Yes. That’s true. Great. Should we get into the episode?

Riese: Let’s get into it.

Analyssa: Let’s do it.

Drew: I’m just so happy. I’m so happy to be doing this episode. This is — I’m just going to start up at the top, and I know we should save this for the end, but I think this is my favorite episode of The L Word, definitely Generation Q, top three ever.

Riese: Wow!

Analyssa: Wow. Big.

Drew: I don’t know. I’m a big fan. I don’t know. I have not talked to Riese or Analyssa about it at all. So I don’t know if we’re on the same page, but this is the energy I’m bringing into this.

Riese: I did text you guys, “Oh, I love this episode,” after I saw it. And that was three weeks before you guys saw it.

Analyssa: Yeah. I also loved it, but I think potentially Drew was just excited to be watching it in the land where it’s set, of Los Angeles.

Drew: That’s true. I am really excited to be back in LA.

Analyssa: And you know who’s also excited about being in LA is The L Word: Generation Q, because they started this episode with the longest “We’re in LA,” and not just we’re in LA, but we’re in Sunset Junction. We’re on the east side. This is not the WeHo of the original L word. Also the saga cell, the 30 second at the beginning tells you what happened on the last episode, felt eternal. That’s not really about the recap, but I was just like—

Drew: There’s a lot to cap. We cover all the storylines this episode, so we really had to like…

Riese: Well, except Angie.

Drew: Oh, that’s true.

Analyssa: Yeah. Well, because it was a party at a bar. She’s under age.

Riese: That’s a good point. She couldn’t, God, you’re so smart.

Drew: So, we start with Micah and Dani on a run together, very LA activity.

Analyssa: Not relatable to me, but—

Drew: I mean me neither, but.

Analyssa: In theory, I guess.

Drew: In theory, an LA activity. Do you? You don’t run?

Riese: No.

Drew: None of us are runners here.

Analyssa: Not with friends, especially.

Riese: Yeah, because that would be embarrassing for me because my running is like a speedy walk.

Drew: Got it.

Riese: Yeah. I’m like a mall walker when I run, you know?

Drew: So Dani is talking about getting a dog. It’s just a really nice friendship moment with the two of them. I think it’s something we’ve been asking for for a while, is actually getting to see the dynamic of their friendship, and it’s so fun to see. And it’s just light and it’s fun. And then Micah reveals his secret.

Riese: Which is that he had sex with a woman.

Drew: And?

Riese: And it turns out we were wrong. He was not supposed to be bisexual from the start. That was just something we made up in our heads.

Analyssa: That was just what I believed because he had had sex with Dani, so I don’t know.

Riese: Yeah, he had dated Dani. So I was like, he’s bi, but he’s just dating men because that’s usually what happens with trans men on TV shows.

Drew: Yes. It’s true.

Riese: But I guess he’s not, but now he is.

Analyssa: But now he is.

Riese: Which is great.

Analyssa: And he does reveal to Dani that it’s Sophie’s sister, Maribel. And she has a very funny reaction.

Drew: She’s like, “Was she better than me?” Which is just — it’s so fun.

Riese: It’s cute.

Drew: I just love this whole scene.

Riese: Then he discloses, and I also love this episode, but he discloses that they have not spoken in a week. What? I’m sorry, in what universe? They used to text every day. They have sex and then radio silence for a week?

Analyssa: From both of them?

Drew: Okay. This is my justification of this.

Riese: Oh God. I can’t wait. I can’t wait because there’s no—

Drew: Now I’m in full justification mode because I liked this episode. So now it’s a thing I like. So my interpretation of it, I assume that they texted like right afterwards. Right?

Riese: Ok. So you’re writing, you’re writing it. You’re writing this.

Drew: And then, like, five days pass. Micah would say, “We have not talked for a week.” Like I just feel like my emotional friends would be like, “Oh my God, this person hasn’t talked to me. After we had sex, they’ve been gone for weeks.” And it’s like, “Weeks? How long has it been?” And they’re like, “Six days.” You know? So I think that was my interpretation of it. The L Word isn’t great with time. Look, it’s still The L Word.

Riese: Sophie says later she hasn’t seen Finley in a week. So are they on the same exaggeration schedule?

Drew: I don’t know. I think maybe it could be like a five day, six day situation.

Riese: I just want to say that, if you have sex with your really close friend, who you’ve had a crush on, somebody who we’re talk to all the time—

Analyssa: Someone you call every day, who you call in mild emergencies.

Riese: Who you call in mild emergencies, which just means you had to talk to Bette Porter that day, then — and they don’t talk for a week? I would be dying. I would be completely dead at this point. I would not be on a run. I would be in my bed. I would be—

Analyssa: I was just about to say, I wouldn’t bring this up to Dani as a third point in the thing. So I had sex with a woman. It’s Maribel. She hasn’t texted me. I would have gone into this run being like, “We need to fucking talk.” And as soon as Dani started talking to me about how she’s using her dad’s evil empire to do good in the world, I would have been like, “I have something I need to talk about actually.”

Drew: That is fair. That is fair. I think they just don’t take time very seriously on The L Word, is part of it. And also, no, of course I’d be crazy, but what I got from this—

Riese: Yeah, you’re right. And later their interactions are totally normal and make complete sense. So I think once we get to that.

Drew: I have complaints. It’s not a perfect episode of television. It’s just, I love it so much.

Riese: Yeah, I do. I love it, too.

Drew: So the other thing I love is that — is Dani saying that she has a pseudo sexual friendship with Gigi.

Riese: Yes, perfect.

Drew: That is such a great description of so many things. I just love it so much. And then Micah is saying that they trauma-bonded. It just, everything felt so gay and so real, the way that they were talking about these things. Like, yeah, some of the timing and specifics are a little bit like what? But, it all just felt so gay and real. I was like, “Is this my favorite scene the show’s ever done?” I’m in a great mood today, if you can’t tell. And I just, I was so excited.

Riese: Drew is thriving today!

Drew: I’m in a really good mood, but anyways, we cut to the credits.

Analyssa: Okay. One more thing I want you to say about this scene though, is that it does feel extremely gay even down to the fact that Dani and Micah seem to have forgotten that there are other bars in Los Angeles that they can go to. They’re like, “We must go to Dana’s, and it’s our right.” And like, sure, you must. And it is your right. You should be able to take up space where your ex goes. But also Dani is like, “I could punch Finley. I don’t know where it’ll go.” You could just go to Akbar or any other—

Drew: But in this world of The L Word,, Dana’s—

Riese: This podcast is sponsored by Akbar.

Drew: I love Akbar.

Analyssa: I’ve never been to Akbar.

Riese: I’ve been there once.

Analyssa: Isn’t that where Dani and Sophie met?

Drew: Yes, it is.

Analyssa: So that was a bad example of, she could go somewhere else.

Riese: White Castle, it’s right there on the corner.

Analyssa: So true.

Drew: Okay. So the reason why we know that karaoke is at Dana’s is because Alice says it to Sophie, is like, “See you there.” And Sophie mentions that she hasn’t talked to Finley in a week. Also, we should talk about the fact that Alice is in a bubble.

Analyssa: A massive inflatable hamster ball.

Riese: Yeah. I mean, sure. Of course. But I’ll also — another thing is that Alice said that she might ask Tom to go, and Sophie just talked to her like it was completely normal. I was ready for like, “Oh, oh, you’re going to ask a man?” But she was just like, “Oh, cool. When are you going to ask him?” And I was like, wow, this is…

Drew: It’s growth. It’s great.

Riese: Wild.

Analyssa: Not The L Word of yore.

Riese: Right. Well, it’s still, I mean…

Drew: We’ll get there. So then we go to Dana’s, right?

Analyssa: Yeah. And Tess and Finley are setting up for karaoke night, and Tess is like, “Finley, invite Brit,” who is the person that Finley was having sex with last episode.

Drew: And is it the first character on the show that uses they/them pronouns?

Riese: Yeah.

Drew: Which is exciting. We don’t actually get to spend any time with them.

Analyssa: I guess it must be exciting for them living their life outside the world of The L Word, because they don’t come back.

Riese: It felt like a little clip of, “This is how you can just use they/them pronouns in conversation.” Like a little educational clip for everyone at home to see.

Drew: Something that is wild is that Tess keeps thanking Finley for coming in. And it’s like, you’re having a karaoke night. She’s your employee. She’s your one employee. We do learn that — it’s so silly.

Riese: No one has done worse at their job ever than Finley on this evening.

Analyssa: Unbelievable.

Riese: They have other employees though.

Drew: Yes, they do. We see that. And then Sophie’s there, chaos.

Riese: Alice texted Tom, “thinking of you” when everyone at the table is like…

Sophie: Oh, honey.
Alice: Really? Is that bad? Okay. It’s bad.
Maribel: It’s just so…
Alice: What? Boring? Pathetic? Plain?
Shane: Basic.
Alice: Oh God. Okay.
Sophie: Oh shit. She is here.

Drew: Yeah. Shane tells Sophie no drama.

Analyssa: Shane forgets that she runs a dyke bar, and she’s like, “No one cause drama tonight.”

Riese: I’m like, “Oh, go shove it.”

Analyssa: You’re having a big event at the gay bar? There’s going to be drama.

Drew: I do think that it’s fair of Shane, in part, because she’s like, “I need my star employee, Sarah Finley.”

Riese: To be on top of her game tonight!

Drew: And then I really liked that Alice called Shane a Nana for… That was cute.

Alice: You’re like a nana. No drama.
Shane: Do you want that in your bar?
Alice: No, no, no, no. I totally get it.

Analyssa: I also love that Bette comes in singing.

Alice: Hey!
Bette: [Singing] Hi hi hi!
Alice: Oh!
Bette: I did my vocal warmups in the car.

Analyssa: That was so crazy.

Riese: It was wild. I was like, who are you?

Analyssa: Just some fun for the folks at home.

Riese: Just a little fun for Bette.

Drew: Getting ready for karaoke.

Analyssa: She’s been doing her vocal warmups in the car.

Drew: Yes. And Alice mentions that she’s also trying to bone someone who she works with. It’s just, again, we’re just getting like fun friendship stuff, bonding over inappropriate workplace dynamics. I mean, for Alice, she’s no longer working with Tom as an editor, so I think that is perfectly fine in my book.

Riese: Or in her book.

Analyssa: Nice. Bette is always actively pursuing artists, both on a romantic and professional level. It’s very rare that she’s just doing one version.

Drew: Yeah. There was some discourse in the comments of our post from last week about how Bette is an abusive monster. And I just want to say that… yeah, pretty much. I mean, she’s hot and she’s fun to watch and it’s a soap opera, so I let a lot go. But, yeah, I don’t think anyone thinks that Bette Porter makes great choices overall in her life of this show. The commenter was like, “If this person was a man…” Honestly, if she was a real person and still exactly the same otherwise, she’d be a nightmare and I wouldn’t associate with her. Watching her on a television show, I’m in love with her, and she can do anything she wants.

Analyssa: And sometimes Jennifer Beals comes in singing to us, and you’re like, yeah, let’s go.

Riese: Yeah. Also wearing… I liked her outfit. I like it when people pull off sneakers with suit wear, and they mention that she is not… Shane’s like, “Who are you chasing? I know it’s not Gigi.” So everyone kind of knows that, that has fizzled.

Drew: Yeah. Oh, I just want to note that even at this point in watching the episode, I wrote down, “Is this the best episode ever?”

Riese: Drew, it’s so premature!

Analyssa: Drew loved this. Nothing has happened yet.

Drew: I’m just so happy because this is what I want, I just want them being friends and being gay and being funny and being decently written.

Riese: Then we have a highly erotic—

Analyssa: I was going to say, this is for Riese.

Riese: Cord play, because I fucking love — those moments of that, “are our hands going to touch for a second.” It drives me bananas. So that’s between Sophia and Finley because Sophie’s trying to help her with the cords, because of course Finley doesn’t know how to do anything. And then, Sophie just asks if she’s avoiding her, and Finley’s like, “Nope,” even though she obviously is, and then they sort of linger. So it’s clear that there’s some tension there. There’s some erotic and romantic tension there. There’s something in the air tonight.

Analyssa: Something is happening.

Riese: It’s there.

Drew: Tess walks up, and Finley says that she didn’t wear deodorant.

Riese: Oh yeah. Finley goes into the back to talk to Tess. And she said she didn’t wear deodorant. And that is confusing to me as is why she has a jacket on if she’s hot and also why she has in fact two jackets on if she’s hot.

Drew: Very chaotic energy, as usual.

Riese: And also one is zipped up just this far. It drove me nuts the whole time. Other than that, I love the episode.

Drew: And then Cherie calls Tess. Then back with Bette, Alice and Shane, Shane tells Bette and Alice about Cherie.

Riese: Also when Finley’s back there with Tess, Tess is like, “You should tell Sophie to stop hitting on you if it makes you feel bad.” And Finley’s like, “Oh, okay. I definitely will. Okay. I definitely won’t.” And I was good, good, because by the way, like now I’ve seen this episode, honestly, five times, maybe more than that. But at the — in this moment, when I was watching it for the first time, I was like, Finley’s going to call Brit at any moment. And this is — all of my dreams are going to be dashed. I was very tense, but luckily they didn’t do that.

Analyssa: The one thing I do want to say about what Tess tells Finley is that at first, she gives really good advice, which is to talk to her. And then she gives really bad advice, which is tell her to back off. Why do we have to go in so confrontational? Just say, talk to her actually. That might be the best place to start. Chat about what you both are feeling.

Drew: Tess is dating Cherie Jaffe, so the choice is being made.

Riese: Not for long! So Shane tells her friends that Cherie stopped by. She says nothing happened. They’re both like, “Oh my gosh, Cherie Jaffe?” And I would just like everyone to know it’s Cherie Peroni now. I feel like everyone forgot about season three. She’s been divorced since 2006.

Drew: I know that. But, they didn’t know her as Cherie Peroni. And so would you think that there’s still people… I, when I tell stories about people I went to middle school with who on Facebook I now know are married, I don’t use their new names. I’m like blah, blah, blah, blah.

Analyssa: Well, and the real estate that Cherie Jaffe as Cherie Jaffe probably occupied in their conversations in 2005 is, that’s always going to be Cherie fucking Jaffe to Bette and Alice.

Riese: Absolutely, yeah. And they don’t believe Shane that nothing happened, which is common, I guess. But there’s still that sense that something happened. And then this is when Bette says that there was no connection with Gigi because it wasn’t a meeting of the minds.

Analyssa: They’re so rude about Gigi, these three.

Riese: They are so mean to her!

Analyssa: But I also think that they’re just jaded. They’re just kind of over being at a gay party and doing this stuff with like ex’s of ex’s, and that’s like kind of the sense too, but yeah, Bette is mean about Gigi, and I didn’t like it.

Drew: For sure, Bette is really… And then Bette and Alice complain about Gigi talking about her feelings, which I did think was really funny. I really liked the fact that these people don’t know how to communicate, and this person who does know communicate, they cannot handle being in that. I mean, that’s what happened with Jodi, too. When Jodi came into their lives, it was—

Riese: Everyone was like, “Ugh.”

Drew: It was like, “Who’s this person?

Riese: “Who wants to know what’s happening? That’s so weird.” Yeah, they prefer a submissive Tina. Everyone wanted a Tina. So, Sophie says to Maribel that Finley’s avoiding her for sure. And, then as they look, then they look up and we all see Dani, Gigi, and Micah enter the arena and Gigi is wearing—

Analyssa: The sleeves, a neck of a turtleneck, that’s crucial. My roommate’s dad — remember when those magic scarfs were sort of a big deal? They were a tube of fabric and you can just make them into a sweater, basically, like Y2K type stuff. And like, little Bolero sweaters were kind of a big deal. He used to call them “sweassories,” like sweater accessories, like they’re not a real sweater.

Drew: Wow.

Analyssa: This, I looked at this and I was like, “That’s a sweassory.”

Riese: Yeah, this is a next-level sweassory.

Analyssa: This is the canonical sweassory in my mind.

Riese: And it’s like, she is there to have a normal night. And I don’t know how anyone who’s there could speak to her and not think, “What happened?”

Analyssa: Every single time—

Riese: Drew’s about to say that it’s her favorite outfit she’s ever seen.

Drew: No, no I am not going to do that, I am not going to do that. What I was going to say is that I really enjoy when hot people wear bad fashion, because I love to be like, “Oh, you are hot enough that you can—”

Riese: That’s true. If I wore that it would be over, over.

Analyssa: I wouldn’t even leave the house. I’d put that on and I’d be like, “Wait, no”

Drew: Gigi walks in in that and I would be like, “That is weird. And also, wow, you still somehow look hot. I’m really impressed by you.” I do think that it’s something that that top tier of hot people can do and I think they should continue to do it because no one else is going to buy those clothes.

Riese: Yeah, yeah.

Analyssa: Every time I took notes about what Gigi was doing in one of these scenes, I talked about a different part, like, “Gigi and her turtleneck are sitting by the stage. Gigi’s balloon sleeves have walked over.”

Riese: Oh my God. Dani looks amazing. She looks like, “You cheated on me and now I’m here.”

Analyssa: There’s a lot of cleavage on display; they really came to show out, which again—

Riese: They came to fly.

Analyssa: This is what it feels like to go to a gay party after a recent breakup, in my experience. Okay, so having seen Micah with her own two eyeballs, Maribel is moved to spill to Sophie because they’re all walking over—

Riese: Or just Micah’s walking over.

Analyssa: Oh yeah.

Riese: Because Gigi takes Dani to the bar and shoots a little glance at Bette and Bette shoots a little glance at her, the “I ghosted you” glance. Bette’s look is, “I ghosted you and I’m not sorry.” And why?

Analyssa: Bette’s glance just says, “Yep.” So then I couldn’t even begin to try to recount this conversation because it’s the most unhinged thing I’ve ever experienced.

Riese: It’s really funny.

Analyssa: But it is very funny. Everyone is really awkward and weird.

Sophie: Micah, you’re here.
Micah: Hi. Yeah, I’m here.
Sophie: Wow, this is just great, this is great, this is just so great.
Micah: Are you being weird? Do you know something?
Sophie: Oh.
Micah: Okay.
Finley: Hi.
Micah: Hi. Hi. Hello, yes. Hi. Okay.
Finley: Let me know if you guys need anything.
Sophie: Well, no, we’re good thank you so much, though. Thank you for asking.
Micah: Okay so, I actually need something, I need you to be nice to Dani tonight.
Finley: Dani’s here.
Micah: She is, yeah, yeah. And could she just have a nice night out? We can all try and be civilized?
Finley: Is she going to punch me in the face again? Be honest.
Micah: She hasn’t been able to rule that out.
Finley: Copy.
Micah: But you’re going to be nice to her, right?
Finley:Yeah, God yeah, of course.
Sophie: Yeah, same.
Micah: Just not, not too nice.
Sophie: Okay, I get it. Everybody’s going to be normal because there’s nothing to be weird about with any of us, right?
Micah: Right.
Sophie: Yeah.
Finley: Right.
Sophie: Yeah.

Riese: And then Sophie pretends to take a phone call on her hand so she can leave them alone to talk. And I do not understand what transpires next.

Drew: Okay, Maribel says that she’s just been busy with work. I think it’s played to be like she’s clearly not been busy with work. She’s clearly being awkward and it clearly makes no sense and she clearly ghosted. That was all, that was my read of the scene.

Riese: But then later she’s upset.

Drew: Well, we’ll get to that. But I think at this moment in time, I’m like, “Oh, she clearly wasn’t just busy with work.” I mean, we all get busy with work, but you’re not busy with work for a whole week after you have sex with your friend.

Riese: Right, so I thought from this scene, for some reason, she’s not interested, which did not make sense to me at all, I didn’t know why she wasn’t interested. I was like, “Did they have really bad sex?” It seemed fine to me.

Analyssa: I kind of kept thinking it was really bad. I was like, “Oh, she doesn’t know how to let Micah down easy.”

Drew: I do agree that the way that this eventually gets handled, that it is the thing about the episode that I think is the most, “Eh.” It doesn’t totally work for me, but I can justify it. But at this point in time, I’m just really happy because Micah and Maribel are having awkward, sort of poorly-written L Word drama and that is sort of what I’ve just been asking for for both of these characters. The fact that we’re getting that there’s all this chaos happening and it’s the same sort of chaos with these two, as opposed to it being like, “Oh, we haven’t talked because when Maribel and I were having sex, we did something with my genitals that I felt bad.” It’s the first time on the show that we’re just — Micah’s part of the drama and in the same space, not with Jose and off somewhere else. It’s like Micah’s at the bar, Micah’s in the drama space and it’s all part of it. And I just think I was so excited about that, that I justified some of the, “Eh.”

Analyssa: Well, it was also at this moment that I was like, “Oh, we’re going to be in the bar the whole episode.” I guess I should have realized that. But something that I simply cannot justify, here’s the thing I’m maddest about in this episode: Bette, Alice, and Shane are going to do a karaoke song and they’ve made a whole to do about how they never sing, and they don’t want to sing, and they don’t know which parts and, “Oh my God, what song has Alice picked?” And they’re grumble, grumble, grumble about it. And then these bitches sing with harmonies.

Riese: Yeah, they kill it.

Analyssa: They have rehearsed. I’m sorry, you cannot tell me that these three people have not rehearsed this number.

Riese: I don’t think they have.

Analyssa: They have. Riese?

Alice: Yeah, you’re in the middle.
Bette: The middle?
Shane: All right, what are we singing?
Alice: You’re the brown hair. You’re the guy.
Shane: Why am I the guy? I’m always the guy.
Bette: Oh my God!
Shane: Oh fuck, seriously?
Bette: Okay, okay, okay.
Alice: Okay.
Shane: I’m the guy?
Bette: Yeah.
Alice: Yes, yes, yes. Ready?
Shane: [Singing] If you see a faded side at the side of the road that says fifteen miles to the—
Alice: [Singing] Love shack! Love shack, yeah yeah!
Bette: I’m headin’ down the Atlanta highway.
Alice and Bette: [Singing] Looking for the love getaway, headed for the love getaway.

Riese: Okay, so first of all, Alice was in The Murmurs and she was in Uh Huh Her, so she’s a professional singer and performer.

Drew: Well, Leisha Hailey was.

Analyssa: Well, not Alice.

Riese: Well, okay, whatever.

Drew: Yes, I was watching and I was like, “Oh, it’s so fun to see Leisha Hailey performing.”

Riese: Yeah, because she’s so good!

Analyssa: I’m not mad that they performed, I’m thrilled that they performed. I wish that they would just be honest as characters. Alice, Bette, and Shane would just be honest and say—

Riese: Come clean about your rehearsal.

Analyssa: “Sometimes we rehearse. Alice makes us fucking rehearse this in Bette’s basement and it’s embarrassing, but we do it.”

Riese: They don’t even rehearse in Glee and they just go.

Drew: I know we want to ignore season six, but we should say that, based on the dance competition, I think it’s clear that these are people who would rehearse and who would whatever.

Analyssa: And I just think, “Own that.” They’re all so like, “Ugh, this is such a silly thing. I can’t believe — Okay. Here’s my routine.” And instead you could just be like, “Yeah, we love karaoke. Let’s just do this one song that we kill every single time.”

Riese: And they killed it.

Analyssa: And they killed it.

Riese: This — it was such joy.

Drew: Yes it was, but I also in keeping with talking about Leisha Haley’s musical performances, I would also just like to mention All Over Me and that she plays a musician in it, it’s an incredible movie, and she has pink hair, and is really cool in it.

Riese: Yeah, it’s a great film. I love it.

Drew: You should watch it. Anyways, yes, they kill “Love Shack.”

Analyssa: So while they’re performing “Love Shack,” everybody gets to make meaningful eye contact with someone or look at somebody longingly.

Riese: They’re not playing the music while they’re filming the dancers in the audience.

Analyssa: No, certainly not.

Riese: When they pan to the crowd, and Finley — no one has ever been happier than they are watching “Love Shack,” which actually makes sense because I was delighted watching them do “Love Shack.” When they put the clip, finally, on YouTube, I’m going to watch it probably five more times. It was so good, it was so cute, it was so fun.

Analyssa: It was really fun.

Riese: But we also get a little dialogue here with Gigi. She says like, “It’s weird how the ego kicks in even when you know you’re not right for someone.” Which I related to strongly, when you know you’re not right for someone, but you still get upset if they don’t like you. And then she asks about Dani.

Drew: That’s interesting, for some reason I didn’t catch that as being about Bette. I thought she was talking to — That makes total sense, that’s really interesting. I missed that line.

Analyssa: And now Tom is here.

Drew: Yes. Oh, Shane makes eye contact with Tess. There is just a lot of eye contact happening.

Analyssa: Bette’s looking at Gigi and Dani. Sophie and Finley are looking at each other. Shane’s watching Tess. No one’s watching Alice, but luckily Tom is here.

Drew: And then Tom arrives and then Bette — it’s interesting to see the way the show hasn’t changed, because Bette’s kind of biphobic.

Riese: She’s like, “I don’t want to think or imagine that” or something.

Drew: Yeah.

Analyssa: Oh yeah, I forgot about that. They’re like, “Oh, that’s the guy that Alice wants to…”

Riese: We are seeing, I guess, on television, the things that people say to their best friends that no one else hears, right?

Drew: No, I’m not complaining about it, I thought it was actually interesting to have in contrast with Sophie’s reaction earlier where it wasn’t even like, “Oh, you’re dating a guy.” But she was just like, “Oh my God! Tell me more.” And with Bette, Bette’s still like, “Ugh, I don’t want to have to see that.” It checks out with Bette’s character, it’s all real.

Riese: After Henry.

Drew: You know? #notallmenareHenry.

Riese: I know. I love Tom. And then Bette sees Dani.

Drew: Yes, this is interesting.

Riese: And is thrilled. Honestly, there were moments of this where Bette reminded me of me where normally I’m really bad at talking to literally anybody and then maybe I have one drink and kill it at karaoke, and suddenly I’m like, “I can hang with the kids.”

Analyssa: You’re like, Queen of the bar.

Riese: But only for like 10 minutes, because I’m going to go to an art show and wish I hadn’t had a drink at all.

Analyssa: They miss each other, they’re very excited to see each other. I thought this was about Bette being weird about Dani spending time with Gigi, like it was kind of a power play, but I’m sure there’s some real stuff here. Anyway, Dani tells Bette that she’s working on something for them to work on together. I was like, “Okay?”

Drew: Is it a threesome?

Riese: Yes.

Analyssa: Yeah.

Riese: Is daddy’s company going to sponsor a Black Lives Matter art show?

Analyssa: 100% that’s where it’s going.

Drew: This is really bold — because Gigi and Bette are technically still together.

Riese: Are they?

Drew: I think so because later Dani mentioned something about, “Does everyone cheat?” Because she’s like, “Should I have sex with Gigi?” And so I think as far as she knows, they’re still together — or clearly it’s falling apart — but they’re still together. And she goes up to her former boss who is dating the person who she’s trying to have sex with and is like, “I’m working on a project for us.” It’s bold. I mean, it was hot, but it’s bold.

Riese: There are so many Dani-Bette shippers. I noticed the comments on Showtime’s Instagram, everyone’s always like “Dani and Bette, Dani and Bette!” And I’m like, “I don’t think that’s ever going to happen.”

Drew: No, it’s also the opposite. I mean, maybe they’ll hook up at some point, but—

Riese: I would love that, but I don’t think it’s going to happen.

Drew: I don’t think it actually would work very well because I think Dani falls into that exact spot that sort of Gigi does where Dani has less power than Bette, but she’s also not at all a pushover. And so Bette needs someone who either is more powerful than her, like Pippa or Jodi — but also Jodi didn’t work, so we’ll see how it happens with Pippa — or she needs someone who’s really submissive to her. Dani’s exactly the kind of person who she shouldn’t date, but they can have sex.

Riese: So true, yeah, sex is always an option.

Analyssa: Speaking of sex, but not actually really, Shane goes back to the office where everybody has sex at Dana’s.

Riese: The sex room.

Analyssa: The sex room, the sex office.

Riese: The Sexoff. That failed, sorry. Sorry to everyone who’s listening.

Drew: The Sexffice?

Riese: The Sexoffice?

Drew: That sounds like “the orifice.”

Analyssa: Sexoffice sounds like “orifice.”.

Drew: Okay, anyway.

Riese: Sexoffice sounds like a political perspective.

Analyssa: Sexfice might work.

Riese: Like fascist, but you’re also sexy, like a sexy fascist.

Drew: Oh Lord.

Analyssa: Tess reveals that Cherie has dumped her.

Riese: And she blames Shane.

Analyssa: She blames Shane, she’s like, “Something has happened. You did something.”

Riese: And Shane’s like, “I didn’t.”

Analyssa: She’s like, “No, me? I’m just a little cat.”

Riese: “Just a country girl”

Analyssa: But okay, Tess says:

Tess: She said it was messy so she was going to take herself out of the mix.

Analyssa: Which is so clearly code for “Shane told Cherie that she has feelings for Tess.” Tess, you’re smart. I’ve watched you run this bar single-handedly. I know that you can read into this, but she doesn’t, she’s just like ready to be mad at Shane.

Drew: Can I also say something on the record?

Analyssa: Please do. The record is open.

Drew: Someone cannot break up with you who started dating you a week ago. It’s not a breakup. I just want to say, if anyone listening dates me ever.

Riese: Anyone dates anyone ever.

Drew: Anyone ever. I’m saying this for selfish reasons, but I guess for the sake of the world, take this out to your other relationships that don’t involve me.

Riese: Yeah, you’re helping everybody right now, Drew.

Drew: I love to be—

Riese: Of service.

Drew: Yeah. A breakup is when you’re in a relationship and then it ends. A breakup is not when you’re starting up a fling with someone or “I’ve hooked up with someone a couple of times,” or even have gone on some really good dates. It can be disappointing. It can be super disappointing when you have something that feels like it’s new, and fresh, and fun, and happy. Sometimes those are even harder than breakups because you have someone on such a pedestal. And it’s not saying that those things aren’t hard or you don’t deserve to mourn them or to have feelings about them. Sometimes you’re still hung up on someone where you have a brief fling with for a really long time because of whatever they represented to you or et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But if you met someone at a bar a week and a half ago, is it?

Riese: Yeah.

Drew: I guess if you spent every second together, there’ll be something. But has she? No, she’s been at work, we’ve seen her. So it’s not a breakup. She didn’t break up with her.

Riese: It ended.

Drew: She just ended it.

Riese: It ended.

Drew: So it drives me nuts. The amount of times that I’ve had to break up with people who I’ve hooked up with twice, it’s like, Jesus Christ.

Riese: Yeah. I think that her perspective on this relationship has been a little bit confusing from the start. They met at a party, she flirted with Shane, they made out in the back room, then she broke up with her. This is not reality.

Analyssa: Back at the bar, Gigi’s sweater is making eyes at Bette to have a conversation.

Riese: Bette is a cold, cold—

Drew: This is brutal.

Analyssa: This was brutal.

Riese: A cold icicle in the butthole from Bette Porter.

Analyssa: That might be fun for some people, though.

Riese: Oh, actually, yeah, it is. It’s nice. If it’s really hot out, to put ice in someone’s butthole.

Analyssa: I feel like this was just cold icicle through the heart muscle which is always unpleasant, I think.

Riese: Maybe she’s already cold and then she puts her cold icicle in her butt.

Analyssa: I do love that Gigi forces Bette to have this conversation, keeps pressing. And what Gigi doesn’t know is that Bette loves to talk about core values.

Gigi: What went so wrong with us, Bette?
Bette: You really want to talk about this?
Gigi: Yeah. I do.
Bette: Now? Do you? Now.
Gigi: Yeah.
Bette: Okay. I think we both know that we’re not right for each other.
Gigi: I’m curious about your perspective.
Bette: I think I need more.
Gigi: Do you really think there’s someone out there who checks all your boxes, Bette?
Bette: As a matter of fact, I know there is. Goodnight, Gigi.
Gigi: Goodnight.

Analyssa: It’s just so mean.

Riese:It’s so mean.

Drew: It’s so mean.

Analyssa: It’s so dismissive for no reason.

Riese: What?

Drew: Can I say something else on the record for the community?

Riese: Yeah, sure.

Drew: It’s so easy when you’re ending something — which, this is maybe a breakup, I’m still going to call it an ending something — honesty is good, communication is good, but being mean when you are the person who’s ending something is so unnecessary. Someone doesn’t need to actually know what your issues are with them. Because they know that you don’t want to date them and unless it’s something abusive that you want to take on and share and say, but if you think someone isn’t smart enough for you, which is basically what Bette is saying, or cultured enough or whatever, you simply do not need to say that. You can just say, “I just don’t feel it.” You can say, “We don’t have the right chemistry.”

Analyssa: “There is just not a spark.”

Riese: Right. You can have Drew write out for you what you should say to somebody and then you can copy it from your text message and then send it to the person, if you want to. I’m saying hypothetically.

Drew: Hypothetically. I’ve definitely never done that for Riese.

Riese: Hypothetically a person could do that.

Drew: I just think that there’s a way to be honest and clear without insulting someone, because at the end of the day, there’s not an intelligence difference. There’s not even necessarily a culture gap, it is Bette’s taste. The things that Bette values.

Riese: Exactly, it’s Bette’s taste.

Drew: The way that Bette views intelligence. And so that is not actually a value judgment on Gigi at all. And the fact that Bette is so myopic that she would think, “Oh, because I like art and I like to talk about things this way.” Also Bette’s friends don’t know anything about art, so does Bette want to talk about how Alice and Shane are stupid? It’s just so — it’s so mean, and especially when Gigi is being vulnerable to be like, “What happened with us?” And also first, she starts by being like, “We could be fucking in the bathroom.” She takes a swing and it’s just so, so mean to reject someone and then to do this to them. I don’t know. It just was, it just felt so, so cruel.

Riese: It was so cruel.

Drew: And then Gigi’s like, “Do you really think you’re going to find somebody who checks all your boxes?”

Riese: And she’s like, “As a matter of fact, I know I can.” This is how you treat someone who has deeply wronged you, who has cheated on you. Because you date people and it just doesn’t work.

Drew: Yeah, all the time.

Riese: Everyone I’ve dated I still think are great people and many of them I’m friends with because they’re awesome. It just wasn’t there.

Analyssa: Gigi’s only crime is being hot and slightly different than Bette. Okay, cool. I don’t know.

Riese: It’s so mean. And also, especially because Bette went over there. After Pippa, in the last episode, she was texting her, wanting Gigi to come over and do it. Bette kept it going. I think Gigi was not reaching out anymore.

Analyssa: If I’m Gigi and Bette has texted me three times in the last week to come hook up because of unknown reasons and then goes, “I think I can find someone more than you.” Excuse me?

Riese: Can you? Because you called me three times this very week.

Analyssa: The evidence strongly suggests otherwise.

Riese: Strongly suggests otherwise.

Analyssa: I don’t know.

Riese: I’ve never seen Gigi reach out to Bette, ever.

Drew: No.

Analyssa: No, not once.

Riese: Gigi’s already walked out of her house. Bette’s the one who’s called her and was silenced, called her and got a no.

Drew: I think we can, as a podcast and as a community, come to the conclusion that Gigi is better than Bette.

Riese: Yeah.

Analyssa: I think, yeah, a classic “for us as lesbians.”

Riese: Absolutely. For us as lesbians… holy shit.

Analyssa: Okay. Anyway, Alice is flirting with Tom at the other end of the bar. The only thing about this is—

Riese: He doesn’t get it.

Analyssa: He does not understand it. He calls her his friend. Everyone on this television show should remove the word “friend” from their vocabulary. It’s only caused problems.

Drew: It felt very realistic to me that this cis straight man who’s very outside the queer community would have this sort of cultural biphobia of being — it’s not malicious, but it is just being like, “Oh, you’re a very famous queer woman. You’re not interested in me.” And that felt really real to me.

Analyssa: Just a couple of chaotic things — Sorry, do you have another thought?

Drew: No, I just was going to say that I think Donald Faison is a really great addition to our lesbian show.

Riese: He’s cute.

Analyssa: I love it, he’s so fun.

Riese: He’s so fun. Now I follow him on Insta.

Drew: Well, that’s nice.

Riese: I might watch Scrubs.

Analyssa: I kind of want to watch Scrubs. I think it’d be fun.

Drew: Zach Braff sucks.

Riese: I know, the problem is Zach Braff.

Analyssa: I know. There are a couple of chaotic things going on at Dana’s that I would like to point out. Number one is everyone is having a conversation at normal human volume while, quote unquote, karaoke is happening. Unrealistic.

Riese: No karaoke.

Analyssa: Number two — yeah, there’s actually no karaoke happening. And there’s a dance floor, which means that this is the weirdest karaoke. They were like, “We’re going to do four songs of karaoke throughout the night. And in between there will be a big dance floor situation.”

Riese: Are we supposed to believe that karaoke is happening? Because the songs in the background were familiar karaoke songs, but I was like, “It sounds like the original.”

Analyssa: Yeah. Am I just to assume that no one’s signed up to sing karaoke?

Drew: Maybe they’re having a really hard time getting people to sing.

Riese: But then Shane said it was a hit.

Analyssa: I’ve just never been to a karaoke bar party, et cetera where the activity is karaoke, but also the dance floor is popping.

Riese: Honestly, this episode cost $15. At the end of the episode, when they showed the people who were the extra actors they had to credit, there were two people.

Drew: It is very hard to do this kind of episode. It is cheaper, but it is also, organizationally, very hard. There were extras, and wrangling those people. And the fact that they didn’t want to add in other people to sing poorly in the background. I’m okay with that.

Riese: I was ready for a drunk lesbian crying and singing.

Drew: That’s true, that could have been like a comedic—

Analyssa: I’m just saying that for all the realism about what it feels like to go to a gay bar, or a gay party—

Drew: Yeah, that’s fair.

Analyssa: There’s not a lot of realism about what it feels like to be at karaoke night event.

Drew: That’s very fair, that’s very fair.

Analyssa: And as a karaoke booster, that’s what I’m here for.

Drew: Yes, I really appreciate you taking on that important role.

Riese: So Dani sits with Gigi.

Analyssa: But first Micah and Dani debrief the Maribel thing.

Riese: Oh okay.

Analyssa: Briefly. And he’s like, “This is what happened. She was really weird. She hates me. I’m going to die alone.”

Drew: Yeah, she said that she had to solve the crisis at the border before they could—

Analyssa: Right. Then Dani’s like, “Well, there’s a guy over there. Go flirt with him, he’s been checking you out all night.” So Micah goes off to do that.

Riese: Do you think this is what lesbians think it’s like to be a gay man? Because this happens to Micah at every bar. They’re always like, “That guy’s been checking you out all night.”

Analyssa: Honestly, I have… Not to be like, “I have gay men friends,” but I do. And I do feel like this happens to them way more frequently than it does to me.

Drew: Yeah, for sure.

Analyssa: And that’s rude because both of them are extremely partnered and guess who’s not? Me. So if anyone wants to check me out at a bar, let me know. Anyway, then—

Drew: Okay this is good.

Analyssa: So Michael goes to flirt with a boy and he’s immediately replaced by Gigi’s sweassory. The turtleneck is up to her chin. I can’t, the profile, it’s so much worse.

Riese: It’s threatening to swallow her head.

Analyssa: It got bigger every time.

Drew: Yeah, it did.

Analyssa: It’s closer and closer to her ears. Okay.

Drew: Sophie sends a drink, which is the first thing Sophie does tonight that made me go, “No.”

Analyssa: Everyone at this bar deserves at least a timeout. Yeah they should all get locked into the Sex Office by themselves for just like half an hour. Everyone is making insane choices.

Riese: Yeah. And also like she already has a drink and also they’re all martini glasses. And I, like Tess, called on Shane earlier tonight and was wrong, but I’m going to call on this show and I’m going to be right. And the thing I’m right about is martini glasses. You can’t just walk around with a martini glass.

Drew: It’s very hard.

Analyssa: Okay. Shane is trying to call Tess because Tess has left and the bar’s immediately crumbling without her. We see no evidence to that, but I just have to believe that that’s true. Hilariously, Tess’s voicemail says, “If you have reached my voicemail, try Dana’s instead.” Which is just a funny detail.

Riese: Yeah, I’m going to make that my voicemail.

Drew: “Try autostraddle.com” instead.

Riese: No, I’m going to say, “Try Dana’s.”

Drew: Oh, that’s good. And Finley is outside practicing her speech to Sophie.

Finley: Hi. Okay, I’m just going to say it again. I love you. I think I’ve always loved you and be with me. Fuck.

Drew: And Shane is just like, “Babe, you got to do your job. We need you.” And then Finley says that she fed the rats already?

Riese: That’s so funny.

Drew: This made me laugh. This is sort of like the last episode with, or two episodes ago. And when it was like, “Oh, Dani took the—'”

Analyssa: The red pepper?

Drew: … the red pepper, I’m like, “This is nonsense, but it made me laugh. So I will accept it.”

Analyssa: And Shane just stands there, “Why did we hire this person?” And again, I agree.

Riese: But also Finley’s little fake speech made me laugh too. When she mentions, she’s like, “Be with me!”

Analyssa: Yeah, she’s going through it. Our girl.

Drew: Speaking of incredible art, like this television episode. We, for the first time in a while, leave and go to Pippa’s student’s art show.

Riese: Right. Pippa who is both in seclusion and teaching at a major university.

Analyssa: Yes. No one’s been able to find her for decades.

Riese: Except for students who are enrolled in her course.

Analyssa: Pippa is like — as she has previously — is like calling Bette out on her shit. She says that it’s kind of inappropriate that she’s here. And Bette is sort of like, “Yeah, I agree.”

Drew: Yeah. But no, Bette’s like, “I’m here for your student who I heard was an early Basquiat.”

Riese: Basquiat, I know.

Drew: Which the show loves to make—

Riese: I was like, “Ugh.”

Drew: The show loves to make references to incredibly famous artists that, I’m like, “I think that Bette would make a little bit.” And sometimes they have niche-er people, but I’m just like. Which it’s also like, “Okay, Bette we know why you’re there, but that’s okay.”

Riese: Yes. I mean, she sticks to her story.

Analyssa: She does.

Riese: She’s committed.

Drew: She sure looks at those students’ art.

Analyssa: She walks around looking at the art without Pippa.

Riese: The new Basquiat, Basquiat Jr. in 30 years, Bette is going to find them in Topanga Canyon and be like, “I was at your first show.”

Drew: She’s going to be like, “Can you stop hitting on me?”

Analyssa: She literally says that later and I was like, “Bette loves to tell someone, ‘I was at your first show.’”

Riese: Yeah. She’s going to be going to the Ohio State Fair and going to the arts section for the 4H competitions — which, by the way, is where you can just see the most amazing art you’ve ever seen in your life. I love State Fair art competitions.

Analyssa: I’ve never been to a state fair art competition.

Riese: Oh really?

Analyssa: But I do love state fairs so let’s talk about that after.

Riese: Okay.

Analyssa: Okay. So back at Dana’s.

Drew: Yeah, this is the unhinged… Okay.

Analyssa: Oh yeah.

Drew: So Micah’s talking to that guy.

Riese: Mirabell just zooms over and is like.

Maribel: Was I an experiment to you?
Micah: What?
Maribel: Just to see what it would be like to sleep with a woman?

Drew: Yeah. We should clarify that — because at first I was like, “Oh, is she talking about disability?” And then it was like, no, she’s just talking about Micah hooking up with a woman. Which I think when the first season of Gen Q, part of being frustrated… I really want it to have nuanced, interesting discussions that reflect my queer community. And I think in the… Whatever, there was a whole pandemic, I think I’ve just been like, “This is a soap opera. It’s created by a cis abled white woman, and that is going to influence it.” And there are obviously, there’s a writer’s room filled with a lot of other people, but there aren’t a lot of trans people, as far as I know, there are no disabled people. I don’t know that for sure. But I was happy that that was the route it went. But I don’t understand why this is her reaction.

Riese: I’m so confused.

Analyssa: This fight doesn’t make any sense.

Riese: Because he’s like, “What?” He’s like, “Wait, you just shot me down.” And she was like, “Oh, I’m sorry, I wasn’t enthusiastic enough for you.” I’m like, “What are you talking about?”

Analyssa: You genuinely said no.

Riese: You genuinely shot him down pretty hard. Not Bette-hard, but hard.

Drew: The reason why this might… Where I landed with this was, Maribel has issues, the way that a lot of the characters have issues and clearly there’s a lot of trust stuff going on. Nothing she’s doing here is any more unhinged than stuff that the other characters have done. It doesn’t—

Riese: I guess, because until now she’s been written as so confident.

Drew: Yeah. But I think we also saw that she said that she had a date with a guy who wasn’t good enough for her. She also, her reaction to Micah. I still have an issue with this scene, but her reaction to Micah. I don’t know why they’re writing her character this way, but it is consistent with the way she reacted when Micah was complaining about Nat and his job. There is something that, I don’t know, certain conflicts that she doesn’t seem to know how to deal with. Or she does turn on him pretty quickly. Which again, I don’t know why that’s how they’re writing her, but it is starting to feel consistent with her character. And I am interested to see sort of like, as it develops to see if it gets justified for me. But this specific moment was the one that made me go most, “Huh?”

Riese: This was the scene that annoyed me the most of the episode.

Analyssa: I agree.

Riese: It’s also funny because they’re apparently… Sophie and her parents, her mom and her grandma are so great. And they were like, “What is wrong with our daughters?”

Analyssa: “They’re always flying off the handle.”

Drew: Maribel also says that this doesn’t feel like Love and Basketball. Which one, obviously wanting your life to be like your favorite romantic movie is not healthy. But two, Love and Basketball is very messy. It takes like—

Riese: Oh really?

Drew: Yeah.

Riese: I don’t remember it.

Analyssa: I’ve never seen it.

Drew: [Gasps]

Analyssa: I did write ”Love and Basketball ref, did Drew write this?”

Drew: Oh my God, one of my favorite movies of all time.

Riese: I thought it was obviously, and it obviously is a movie they watched together. I thought she was saying that to sort of bring it back down to Earth and then Micah would laugh. But that’s not what happens.

Drew: Oh, okay. But that’s interesting.

Riese: But that’s what I thought. Because that feels like something I would do if there was an awkward thing. I’d be like, “Well, this is nothing like it was on The L Word.” And then someone will be like, “Okay, we’re being silly.”

Drew: No, but maybe that was what she was trying to say, was like, this isn’t Love and Basketball. We can be clear with each other instead of having a complicated years-long—

Riese: Oh I didn’t get that.

Drew: Because the way Love and Basketball— it’s split into four quarters. And each quarter is also a period of their lives and romance. And there’s a lot of back and forth, and a lot of complication. So maybe she was being like, “I a little bit reject you and so you go off and have this whole other romance that’s going to take up all these years of time.” But it is an unreasonable reaction.

Analyssa: I think the way that she said it is, “This is nothing like my favorite romantic movie, Love and Basketball.”

Drew: That was also my initial information. But it doesn’t really make sense in the context of the movie, Love and Basketball.

Analyssa: Right.

Drew: But maybe that wasn’t—

Analyssa: Something else that doesn’t make sense is the thing that Sophie and Dani are doing. Which I would like to point out is exactly what I said they would end up doing. Which is this weird in-between thing of we’re friends, but we’re kind of flirting.

Riese: But I kind of hate you.

Analyssa: Dani makes a joke about when she got left at the altar.

Riese: She says that twice in this episode and then Sophie leaves… because we didn’t see it.

Analyssa: Oh right.

Riese: Is she being literal? Did Sophie walk out after that happened?

Drew: I don’t know. I would say that it — I would qualify, even if she didn’t.

Riese: Because I feel like Rachel left Barry at the altar, Shane left Carmen at the altar.

Analyssa: Yeah right. But maybe it’s just the easiest shorthand. There’s not—

Riese: Oh my God.

Analyssa: There’s not a shorthand for saying, “Does this drink make up for you leaving me at the altar?” is easier than saying, “Does this drink make up for the fact that you cheated on me, and then the person you cheated on me with stormed our wedding, and then made a scene at our wedding, and then you left? In a hat, of all things?”

Drew: I really really liked this because it was, Dani was both… They were trying to be friendly, the two of them, but then it was clear that Dani couldn’t help but let her resentments bubble up, which clearly — so it’s like presented in this joking way and it’s like, ah, it’s not.

Analyssa: But it also has a flirty edge to it because they’ve had sex recently. So then they kind of are laughing and touching. And of course Finley sees this, she goes back to the Sex Office to chug a beer. And just an aside, this is not the fastest way to get drunk if the thing that you want is to get drunk.

Riese: Yeah, do a shot.

Analyssa: You’re at a bar. As a sober person I don’t need to encourage Finley to drink more. But I don’t think she’s drinking super well if what her aim is, is to get drunk.

Riese: Yeah. Because she’s just going to feel bloated, but I guess she’s used to drinking a lot of beer.

Analyssa: And she’s just going to burp. It’s not going to feel like anything. And what it shows is that she wants to feel better for having seen Dani and Sophie. And the way to do that is like two back-to-back tequila shots. Not to be like, “Ha, ha I used to be a drunk.” But yeah.

Riese: But yeah, that’s actually just accurate information that you’re sharing with us.

Analyssa: Anyway. They’re in the Sex Office, but they’re not having sex, they’re having fights.

Sophie: Hey, I don’t know what you think you saw out there but that was just.
Finley: Nothing I was just coming out to tell you to not hit on me and then you were hitting on her. So it kind of just cancels the other thing out. Like physics or whatever.
Sophie: Okay. But Dani and I, we’re… I’m just trying.
Finley: It’s none of my business. Okay?
Sophie: We’re done. Okay?
Finley: You can talk to whoever you want. Okay. We’re just friends. Right?
Sophie: Is that what you want?
Finley: Is that a joke? Of course that’s not what I want. I think I’ve been pretty clear about that.
Sophie: All right. Well, you’re fucking someone else the other day. I fucking heard you.
Finley: You know that’s not real.
Sophie: So loud.
Finley: Sophie, God you make it… I’m trying to get over you and you make it fucking impossible.
Sophie: How? How do I do that?
Finley: You asked me to stay so I stayed. Right? Then you asked for space so I gave you space. And anytime I’m near you, I feel something. And it’s like, just, do you feel it? Do you feel it? Or am I fucking crazy?
Sophie: Yes, okay? You’re not crazy.
Finley: Then what the fuck dude?
Sophie: This is, this is hard. This is so fucking hard.

Riese: So it seems as though Sophie has her feelings that she’s still hesitating to take the plunge with Finley.

Analyssa: And Riese I think you’ve been saying this the whole time. She’s like:

Sophie: Nobody thinks that we should be together.

Analyssa: I just want to say she only has two friends. So I don’t know who “everybody” is.

Drew: The whole lesbian community of Los Angeles is talking about it.

Analyssa:I’ve heard no one else’s opinion on this, except Dani who got heartbroken and people who-—

Riese: Her sister.

Analyssa: … And her sister, I guess. But people who Sophie or Finley are telling their side to, and they are reacting to it. No one has an opinion that’s like, “Well, this just wouldn’t work.” Anyway. Whatever.

Riese: Yeah, and Finley’s obviously really sad and it’s just like.

Finley: You’re never going to choose me are you?

Riese: I don’t know, it felt really real and sad.

Drew: I also think that some of it is Sophie. Sophie was with Dani, who is now a CEO and very much had that energy. And I think Sophie in saying, “No one thinks we should be together.” I think that’s also her way of communicating that she has an insecurity about, “People are going to judge me for dating a lesbian labrador retriever.”

Riese: Who doesn’t have her life together, who is a mess on several levels.

Analyssa: It’s a big change in—

Riese: Yeah. But what she doesn’t realize is that no one cares about anyone about themselves.

Drew: Yeah.

Riese: At all.

Drew: It’s interesting though this paralleled with Bette and Gigi’s break up. In the sense that like this dynamic of superiority and of cultural cachet of relationships. I don’t know. I just — it’s so interesting to me this idea of… I think it’s fine to like, want to date someone who has similar interests to you or similar ambitions or whatever. But it’s interesting the way that it keeps being framed as this very central issue. Which I don’t know, maybe it is for people, but.

Riese: I think it is.

Analyssa: So then Sophie sees Alice. And I didn’t write it down, but I wrote, “Finally, someone gives her good advice.” So good on Alice.

Alice: You okay?
Sophie: Yeah, I’ve been better. You?
Alice: Well, the whole Tom thing is kind of backfiring.
Sophie: Really? I mean, he’s here.
Alice: Yeah. He said we were great friends, that’s okay. I’d make the first move usually, but the possibility for rejection is like something I can handle right now.
Sophie: Well, you can’t be scared forever.
Alice: I think one more night of crippling fear is okay.
Sophie: Not for me, I don’t think.
Alice: No?
Sophie: No. Finley’s not that bad.
Alice: I know that. I love her.
Sophie: Yeah, so do I.

Riese: But I think honestly, all she needs is Alice’s endorsement.

Analyssa: She needs someone’s endorsement. She needs someone to be like, “Yes, Finley is good. You can do that.” Finley is crying to Shane, in a new surprise, tiny back room of the bar. I don’t think I’ve seen this space before. And Shane is comforting Finley. I think Shane is very good.

Riese: Yeah he’s like, “If you guys like each other, what’s the problem?” You know? And then—

Drew: The question we’re all asking.

Analyssa: Great point.

Riese: Right. And she’s like, “Well, I think maybe I fucked it up. Maybe she’s the one and I fucked it up.” And then she’s like, “Ugh and our song is playing.”

Analyssa: Very cute.

Finley: Oh my God.
Sophie: [Singing] Here comes the rush before we touch, come a little closer.
Shane: Well that doesn’t look over to me.
Finley: No, no it doesn’t. Holy shit.
Shane: I got to go somewhere so you’re going to lock up tonight. Okay?
Finley: Yeah, yeah boss. Of course.
Shane: Go get her.
Sophie: [Singing] It’s not just all physical. I’m the type who won’t get oh so critical. So let’s make things physical.

Drew: Riese, do you want to just take this away?

Analyssa: You tell us about this scene, Riese.

Riese: Okay. Well then she’s like… And then Shane’s like, “Oh, it’s your song.” And then Finley realizes, “Oh my God, it’s Sophie singing.” And first of all, as advertised Rosanny is an amazing singer.

Analyssa: Yeah. Come through, Julliard.

Riese: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. But she goes out there and Sophie’s singing “Closer.” And before we talk about how sweet it is, we should also talk about how completely inappropriate it is.

Analyssa: Unbelievable.

Riese: Absolutely unhinged. Dani is right there.

Analyssa: They’re all looking in each other’s eyeballs. Sophie is not just singing her and Finley’s song. She’s singing it to Finely.

Riese: To Finley. She, then—

Drew: She says.

Analyssa: And then she—

Riese: Finley.

Analyssa: She puts Finley’s name into the song.

Riese: She adds commentary to the song, which is when Dani loses it. When she’s like.

Sophie: [Singing] All you’re thinking lately — and this is true — is getting underneath me.
Finley: Oh shit.

Analyssa: Yeah. And Dani rightfully storms out. And of course, Gigi and her turtleneck follow, because Gigi loves nothing more than a crisis.

Drew: This is so evil.

Analyssa: It is unbelievably…

Drew: I like… It’s funny because I think people are really quick to be mad at Sophie this season. And I’m not, still, I just find this… I’m like, wow, this is so… I will say this is like a classic of rom coms. Right?

Riese: It is, yeah.

Drew: A classic of the genre is a big grand gesture because these are the people who we care about and this is the relationship we care about. And it’s actually, if you take a step back and look at the action that happens, like interrupting a wedding.

Riese: Boarding a plane full of people that are trying to fly somewhere.

Drew: These are all actions that are actually… It’s why grand, romantic gestures are actually not very romantic usually in my opinion. I don’t really like them. But I think small, personal, romantic gestures are usually better. But I’m not judging Sophie. I’m not, I’m not judging the writer’s room. I’m simply getting glee from the evilness on display and how I know that it’s not actually that bad because Dani’s just going to go fuck Gigi. And so she really wins

Analyssa: Right. Genuinely, their minds. The other thing about this scene is that, and Drew’s point just now that it makes me think of is that TikTok I sent you guys, that’s like Sophie is the Jenny of Gen Q. Sophie is the Bette of The L Word: Gen Q. I wouldn’t map them like this.

Drew: No, no.

Analyssa: But if we’re mapping them like this.

Drew: Right, right.

Riese: There’s no Jenny…

Analyssa: There’s no anyone.

Drew: But I know, I very much agree with what you’re saying.

Analyssa: There’s especially no Jenny. And there is especially, potentially two Bettes. And I know that everybody says Dani is similar to Bette.

Riese: But she’s not. Dani is so righteous.

Analyssa: In the actions that Sophie has taken, there’s some Bette Porter there. Anyway.

Drew: Yeah, I think the same way that Finley is Shane, which she’s not, but I think Sophie would be that’s… If you have to pick someone to be Sophie in the original, I think you’re right.

Riese: But it’s also, I think a pre — because obviously this relation, they’re bros. Their number one activity prior to all of this romance was getting wasted together and riding bikes to the bar. This is going to be a chaotic couple and I can relate to that. I’ve been that chaotic couple and it’s really funny. It’s fun. It’s going to be fun.

Analyssa: It’s going to be fun.

Riese: But, so, aside from the fact that this is completely evil and fucked up to do to Dani. Sophie at least doesn’t say Finley’s name until Dani’s gone. But also where she inserted Finley’s name just, was cringe to me.

Analyssa: I agree, it was really cringey.

Riese: It was so weird. And everyone was cheering for them, obviously.

Drew: Finley’s friend.

Riese: Thank God Dani was gone by that point.

Analyssa: Finley cries.

Riese: Holy fuck.

Analyssa: Sophie cries.

Riese: Yeah, they’re both crying.

Analyssa: It’s sweet and also a secondhand embarrassment. Like the whole time I was like, “Oh God, I like this for you two. But I wish I didn’t have to watch it.” Rosanny Zayas, not only a great voice, but really good annunciation. Someone is classically trained, baby.

Riese: And Finley has the look on her face, I don’t think anyone’s ever done anything for her before, ever in her life.

Analyssa: I mean, I don’t think she’s ever been in a situation where anyone, where she cared deeply about someone and they care deeply about her. It’s never been that.

Riese: I don’t think anyone’s ever given her any gestures of any kind.

Analyssa: No.

Riese: And she’s thrilled by it really.

Analyssa: One thing about, while this song is happening is that Alice is not standing anywhere near Tom. Which is so weird. If you invited someone to a bar—

Riese: He went to go meet ladies for her.

Analyssa: I forgot about that. I was like, ‘Why would you not be standing next to him?” Anyway, Sophie’s rendition of “Closer” inspires her to go walk over to Tom. Great, good.

Drew: I love that. Okay. So then Dani’s outside, tells Gigi she isn’t fine. Obviously. Dani says that these are supposed to be her people. And Gigi’s like, “They still are.” Which is true?

Riese: Is it?

Drew: I think it is true. I still do think that ultimately… Dani knows Bette like Sophie knows Alice. There’s no reason why, eventually… whatever.

Analyssa: I do want to say that the way that Dani freaks out makes it sound like she was having a bad time the whole time. And maybe she was and we didn’t see that. But if I were Dani and I had just stormed out while “Closer” was being sung by my ex and Dani walks for the entirety of this performance by the way. I would be mad that Sophie did that. This is a recurring theme with me and Dani where she gets mad about something. And I’m like, “Yes.” And then the thing she’s mad about is different than what I thought she would be mad about. Which is like, Sophie embarrassed the hell out of her just now. But instead it’s sort of this thing of, I can’t believe I can’t even go to this bar with my people. Which is like, they’re similar, they’re related, but it’s not the thing I would have been super mad about then.

Riese: She’s in a really shitty position because everyone else lives together and they all work with each other. She doesn’t live with any of them. She doesn’t work with any of them, and so she’s on the outside. And so she was clearly the wronged party. I think what is hard for her is that she doesn’t realize to the degree to which no one is thinking about her or caring. That everyone is fine to just go on with their lives.

Drew: They’re all having their own dramas.

Riese: But she feels, and I understand, I’ve been on both sides of this. And it’s like, I understand that she feels like everyone’s thinking about her and talking about her, but she’s wrong. But I know why she feels that way. But also Sophie doing that, I feel like is a very much this trying to make her feel like… And I don’t think Sophie did it on purpose. I don’t think she thought for one fucking second that Dani was in the room and that it would be inappropriate. But like it does, it’s a pretty… But that has a way to make someone feel unwelcome.

Analyssa: And that has its own stink to it. Right? That Sophie would do that without thinking about Dani is like a whole different thing. If it were a Bette thing, where Sophie went up and pointedly sang a song about how Dani was horrible and Finley … You know what I mean? That would be different.

Riese: Yeah.

Drew: I think Sophie was aware about Dani. I think it was a pointed thing, in the sense of being like, she’s trying to communicate to Finley that, “Dani’s here and I’m going to say in front of Dani that I like you.” Which in her brain—

Analyssa: I wish she hadn’t.

Drew: Yeah. I think in her brain, she’s like, “I have to prove something because Finley is hurt.” And it’s like, “Yeah, but what about … ”

Riese: Oh yeah, that’s true.

Drew: Because I think she has this idea of Dani, that Dani can’t get hurt. Because Dani has a certain energy. I don’t know, it’s interesting to watch this, where Sophie takes on this caring role of being like, “I need to make sure … ” One, she wants to win Finley’s heart, but she also is like, “I want to comfort Finley.”

Analyssa: Also, this is Bette/Tina/Jodi stuff, don’t you think? A little bit?

Drew: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Dani asks Gigi to get out of there, very excited to see where that goes. Then we go back and Finley’s dancing.

Riese: I know, and Finley’s so happy.

Drew: Yeah.

Riese: And they’re so cute.

Analyssa: It’s very cute.

Drew: Micah looks sad.

Analyssa: Micah is a little bit sad and leaves. And then Alice makes her big play to Tom, which I thought was really cute.

Riese: It was.

Analyssa: It was like …

Alice: Do you want to dance with me?
Tom: Yeah? Trying to make somebody jealous? Your wingman is here, let’s do it.
Alice: Hey.
Tom: Hey.
Alice: I want to dance with you.
Tom: Yeah, of course. Yeah.
Alice: Not as friends.
Tom: Oh, shit. Yeah.
Alice: Yeah?
Tom: Yeah, really?
Alice: What do you think?
Tom: Yeah, absolutely.
Alice: Want to do it?
Tom: Yeah.
Alice: Okay.
Tom: I just didn’t think that you…
Alice: Look. Well, now you know what I think.
Tom: Okay. I’m excited.
Alice: You don’t have to talk.
Tom: I’m going to shut the fuck up.

Riese: Okay!

Analyssa: This hot, Hollywood … He was already overwhelmed by how the sets were … There’s just a lot of stuff about Leisha Hailey, and Alice, that would be like, “Um… Me?”

Riese: Yeah.

Drew: Leisha Hailey has so much chemistry with everyone.

Analyssa: She … Yeah.

Drew: That’s really one of her skills.

Analyssa: It’s great.

Riese: Yeah. And he’s like, “Yeah.” It was so cute.

Analyssa: He was like, “Yeah.” And they’re all dancing to a song that would not be played at this bar, I think. But I’m happy for them.

Riese: I wonder who’s singing it for karaoke?

Analyssa: Yeah. Whose karaoke song choice was this? We once again leave Dana’s, because Shane is going to Tess’s. Everyone’s getting a big gesture moment.

Drew: Yeah.

Riese: Yeah.

Analyssa: Everyone’s getting their time to shine.

Riese: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Analyssa: So Shane is going to Tess’s, and Tess is still mad.

Drew: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Analyssa: And is like, “What did you tell Cherie? Why did you… What happened here? You’ve ruined something for me.” Again, something very small, just in this grand scheme of things. But it’s fine.

Riese: Yeah. Well, yeah, Shane wants to confess what she told Cherie, a little bit of what she told Cherie, which is basically to back off.

Analyssa: Because Tess is too good of a person for Cherie’s games, basically.

Drew: Yeah. She’s protective of her.

Analyssa: Yes. And she’s protective of her, she says, because she cares a lot about Tess.

Drew: Uh-huh (affirmative).

Analyssa: And then Tess is like, “Now hold on, what else did you say? Now I can tell that there’s something different happening here. What else did you say?” And Shane doesn’t tell her.

Riese: Yeah.

Drew: No.

Analyssa: And they don’t kiss, which I thought they might, in the doorway.

Riese: There’s that charged …

Analyssa: They get really close.

Riese: Yeah. And also, Tess is wearing a great robe.

Analyssa: Yes.

Riese: Which I don’t feel like Shane even commented on.

Analyssa: Yeah, not enough attention paid to the robe.

Riese: Yeah.

Analyssa: And then—

Drew: Speaking of people who feel like they’re about to kiss, Bette is with Pippa and they’re bonding over one of Pippa’s students.

Riese: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Analyssa: The baby Basquiat?

Drew: Yes. And it’s really … I love this, I love when Bette talks about art, it’s really the best look on her. It’s hot. And then Bette makes another play for signing her, and Pippa eventually says that it would be hard to pass up a real offer. I’m a little bit confused about this.

Riese: What is she talking about?

Analyssa: I was going to say, I don’t think any of us know enough about what’s going on. I couldn’t even comment on if this is correct or not.

Drew: Yeah. My understanding was that she was saying, “I don’t want to sign with the gallery. If you want to, through the gallery, have something that is focusing on just me… ” I don’t know. I’m trying.

Riese: Because she already told her, she already said she would do that.

Drew: Yeah, I’m trying really hard, but I don’t really actually understand how the galleries work.

Analyssa: I thought that Bette had already promised Pippa a gallery show.

Riese: Yeah.

Analyssa: I don’t know enough about galleries to understand, but basically Pippa is like, “Do this thing for me, and then I might be enticed.” And Bette’s like, “Bet, okay.”

Riese: All right.

Drew: And if…

Riese: Drew, are artists represented by galleries?

Drew: I don’t know.

Riese: Is she saying, “Don’t just be my agent, book me show”?

Drew: I don’t know.

Analyssa: Maybe?

Drew: If you understand this and are in the art world, please email us at tolandbackcast.com.

Analyssa: Call the hotline.

Drew: No—

Riese: Is that it?

Drew: What is the—

Analyssa: Lauren will tell you the info at the end of the pod. Call the hotline, send us an email.

Drew: Tolandbackcast@gmail.com, that’s what it is, that’s why I was—

Analyssa: What did you say?

Drew: I said, “tolandbackcast.com.”

Analyssa: That’s definitely not right. Okay. I thought we were going to get a sex montage, but we’re not.

Drew: Nope, just…

Analyssa: We’re just going to get Alice doing sexuals with this man.

Drew: Yeah. Tom and Alice have sex. And what I was talking about previously with Tom, I think I wish that this straight sex scene didn’t feel so different. It feels so much like, “This is what it’s like to have sex with a straight man.”

Riese: Oh, really?

Drew: That’s how … It didn’t feel that way to you?

Riese: No.

Drew: Oh, okay. Because I was just thinking about the way that the “straight” sex scenes in Vita are, and how they’re just as weird and nuanced and interesting. And I think I wanted a little bit of that. I know that Tom has been framed as being vanilla, so maybe it’s just what makes sense.

Analyssa: I was going to say, I thought it was just, he’s fumbly, but it seems like they like each other and are having a fun time.

Riese: Yeah. I don’t know how much not-vanilla sex we have on the show, even from the queers.

Drew: Well, it’s not even about vanilla, it’s not even about being kinky as much as it’s… We didn’t see Donald Faison’s tongue around Leisha Hailey’s finger or anything.

Riese: Oh, right.

Drew: I’m just saying little moments that are… The show is very, it’s not very kink-heavy, but it’s very heavy with showing… It’s very tongue-heavy, honestly. It’s just very…

Riese: It’s very — it follows kisses.

Drew: Yeah. And it’s very specific. And I think—

Riese: Yeah, that’s true.

Drew: But I should get, because he’s fumbling, it fits his character. I think I just was like, “I’ll be interested as they continue to have sex, if we get any sort of… ” I don’t know, to see how they’re framed and shot. It’s just framed as, I think a little bit maybe Alice being like, “Oh, Alice has been off having all this queer sex, and she missed having this straight sex.” And it’s just, again, that’s not… I don’t think the experience of most bisexual people have like, “Oh, now that you’re having sex with a cis straight man, the sex has to be radically different.” I don’t know. I guess I’m not… I guess I shouldn’t talk, because I’ve never had sex with a cis straight man, but I just… I know it can be radically different. I just think that, at this point in her life, don’t you think Alice has things that she’s into and knows how she wants to be touched? And all these—

Riese: I think I would be like, “Oh, this is going to be really simple.” I would be like, “Okay.”

Analyssa: Great, here we go.

Riese: 100% I would be right where Alice is. I’d just be like, “Oh, it’s there, and we’re going to do this. You’re going to lift me up, you’re going to put me… This is so simple. And now we’re done!”

Analyssa: The rules of it are, from my experience, whence I was doing it…

Riese: Pretty simple.

Analyssa: Really straightforward.

Riese: Straightforward, very straightforward effort.

Analyssa: They don’t have to be always, which I think is Drew’s point.

Drew: Yeah, that’s all I’m saying.

Analyssa: It could be different.

Riese: Yeah. But it really never is, until you are really with somebody.

Analyssa: I was going to say, you’ve got to get really deep in there.

Drew: But also, to be fair… Yeah, I know.

Riese: I think that’s what’s exciting about queer sex, is that there isn’t anything straightforward.

Drew: Right.

Riese: And so previously, from even your first time with someone, there’s a lot of figuring out what you guys want to do together. Whereas with straight men, it’s pretty… Straight cis men, pretty straightforward.

Drew: Yeah, that makes sense. Maribel’s watching Love and Basketball, and so is Micah, but not together.

Analyssa: Shane and Tess are on Shane’s porch talking about the karaoke. And Shane is mad at Alice, sort of lovingly, but still is like, “Alice will never take no for an answer.” And I just… This is what I wanted to say earlier, when we were talking about whether they were good people or not. I don’t think I’ve ever heard Shane say one nice thing about Alice on this television program.

Drew: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Riese: Oh.

Analyssa: At least not in the new iteration.

Drew: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Analyssa: She’s always like, “That was Alice’s fault.” Or “Alice is just like that.”

Riese: Well she’s like, “Alice gets on these things.” Was that bad, necessarily?

Analyssa: It’s not really bad, I guess. It’s just this weird, I don’t know… I think that what it’s aiming for is like, “We have this very long lived in friendship. I know the most annoying things about her and I still love her.” And I think it does succeed, but I wish that one time Shane would be like, again, “We did the karaoke thing that Alice makes us rehearse, and it was fun.” That’s all, I don’t think it’s that hard.

Drew: It’s really the karaoke thing for you.

Riese: You want rehearsal content.

Analyssa: I want rehearsal content. I want Shane to be acknowledging that they crushed at karaoke.

Drew: Totally.

Analyssa: And it was all because of Alice’s preparations.

Riese: That’s true.

Drew: Yeah.

Analyssa: Justice for Alice being a freak. Okay.

Drew: Shane asks Tess to sing, it’s cute. Tess doesn’t sing, but it’s still cute.

Analyssa: And then, Sophie and Finley are home. They’re stumbling through the house, they’re making out. They do not have a conversation about whose bed they’re going to go to, which I was like, “That seems doomed.” And then I was kind of right.

Drew: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Riese: Well, why would they go to Finley’s? It would be like if you guys had sex in your little tool shed.

Drew: Oh, yeah.

Analyssa: Does she live in a …

Riese: She’s in the back room.

Drew: Yeah.

Analyssa: But crucially, the reason to not have sex in Sophie’s bed is because it used to be Sophie’s and Dani’s, which is what Finley brings up.

Riese: Yeah. But she’s right, they have to get over that.

Drew: Wait. But Dani took the red pepper, but not the bed?

Analyssa: Maybe she was so offended by Sophie having sex ever, that she was like, “I can’t have this bed that we had sex in.” I buy that.

Drew: No, I believe that she didn’t use the bed. I just would imagine that she would have taken the bed and thrown it in the trash.

Analyssa: Right. The way that she did all of the other furniture, which is what we discussed that last time, and then I got silenced. Anyway…

Riese: They are so excited to finally be doing it. And they also have a lot to catch up on, for example.

Analyssa: There’s a lot of apologies flying back and forth.

Riese: Yeah. We also get some clips from the trailer, that we’ve been waiting for. The “I’m scared” the “I’m not going to be so scared anymore, it’s you and me.”

Drew: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Riese: And also, she says that she was going to go to Kansas City with Finley, which Finley… Obviously that was not even remotely on her radar, because also Sophie really wasn’t invited to Kansas.

Drew: Yeah. She was like, “Oh right. When you ran to the airport, at the end of the first season.”

Analyssa: “When I was sitting on the plane and then you ran to the airport and I had no idea? Got it.”

Riese: Right. Yeah, that backstory was for us, and I appreciated it. Because I did feel like that’s where she was going.

Drew: Yeah.

Analyssa: Yeah.

Riese: And not just because we did a whole diagram of the entire airport, ourselves, on a map with string.

Analyssa: Do you think that she… We don’t need to get into this, but I just want to say, that… We don’t need to get into this, but I just do want to say that, as a person of Kansas City experience, tickets from Los Angeles to Kansas City are not cheap.

Riese: Right.

Analyssa: So if she was planning on going to Kansas City, did she buy a ticket? How far did we get in the planning to go?

Riese: Maybe she bought a ticket?

Analyssa: You would probably fly Southwest, which is a totally different terminal of LAX, than wherever Dani was flying, for Hawaiian airlines. I’m just saying.

Drew: Yeah.

Analyssa: I know that they’re not writing for the audience of me, who is the LA lesbian of Kansas City experience, but they could be.

Riese: Yeah.

Analyssa: They could have asked me, I could have told them a whole bunch of stuff about this.

Riese: Yeah. They could have just DM’d you about it.

Drew: Yeah.

Analyssa: Anyway.

Drew: Then, we go to Gigi and Dani.

Analyssa: The oddest button of all time, in my opinion.

Drew: Eating ice cream. Oh, I was obsessed with this, as we’ve established. They’re eating ice cream, they’re talking, and then…

Analyssa: Gigi says…

Gigi: They’ve changed.
Dani: What?
Gigi: I told you I’d let you know if my feelings for you changed, and they have. They’ve changed.

Analyssa: As though anyone would have any context for what that means.

Drew: This is incredible. It’s incredible, I love it.

Analyssa: And Dani’s like—

Riese: Didn’t you know immediately?

Analyssa: No!

Riese: Did you?

Drew: Yeah, but—

Riese: I for sure did.

Drew: Yes. But I get why Dani would be like, “What?” I get what Dani was thinking—

Analyssa: Yeah, as a human person.

Drew: But I knew what she meant.

Riese: Yeah.

Analyssa: That is so unhinged to me.

Riese: Yeah.

Drew: And then she goes, “But I think it’s a game.” Because then Dani goes… And then she said, I also want to throw in that Gigi says that, “They’ve changed.” And then seductively licks her ice cream cone. I do want that-

Riese: She has sex with her spoon. It’s far more kinky than what Alice and Tom were doing.

Drew: Yes, very much. And then, Dani’s like, “What’s changed?” She’s like, “My feelings.” And then she walks away and Dani looks overwhelmed and I was obsessed. I loved it. I love Gigi.

Analyssa: Dani is stunned in a way that I was like, “That I liked. Great work there.”

Riese: Gigi is a little bit crazy though, yeah?

Analyssa: She is kind of crazy.

Drew: Oh, yeah. But that is an asset, not a…

Analyssa: No one on this show is “normal.” Angie.

Riese: I feel like the most level-headed person on this show is Shane.

Drew: Yeah, it’s really interesting.

Analyssa: Which is such a…

Drew: But this is such a fucking Shane thing to do, this fuckboy thing to do, where you present yourself as being so level-headed but your actions continuously are shitty.

Analyssa: But this season, I don’t think her actions have been shitty.

Riese: Yeah, who has she hooked up with?

Analyssa: Last season for sure.

Riese: Yeah.

Analyssa: Oh, and she does say to Tess…

Drew: Yeah, I guess that’s true. I don’t really blame her for the whole thing with Lena waithe.

Analyssa: She is like — Oh right. I forgot about that.

Drew: I don’t really blame her for that, the writing was just bad.

Riese: Yeah, that was a terribly written — Everything about that was fucked up.

Analyssa: Everything was bad in that. She does apologize to, or not apologize, but she’s like “Tess, I know that I screwed you over by having sex with your girlfriend.”

Riese: Yeah.

Analyssa: So that’s nice too, there’s—

Riese: But were they even girlfriends? Maybe they just met the weekend before.

Drew: Yeah.

Riese: And Tess was like, “Lena broke up with me because of you.” And Shane was like…

Analyssa: “I didn’t know you guys were together.”

Riese: Because Lena was like, “We broke up.” That’s what Lena told Shane.

Analyssa: Right.

Drew: Yeah.

Riese: But it still wasn’t okay.

Drew: Yeah. Well, and that’s the episode.

Analyssa:

Drew: Oh.

Analyssa: Oh, you guys.

Drew: Did we like it?!

Riese: Let’s start with Drew.

Drew: I loved it so much. I just… I know it’s not perfect. I know there’s still some things here and there that I’m like “Hmm.”

Riese: Yeah.

Drew: But I just — I had so much fun watching it. And the things that usually bother me about the show weren’t really present, and so many things I wanted were there, so many things I wanted — Even though the Micah/Maribel stuff felt a little weird, it’s so what I wanted for this character since episode one.

Riese: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Drew: And I’m just like — There’s just so much fun stuff. And everyone was hot, and it was chaotic. And I miss Gay Astrology and I miss those sorts of nights. And yeah, I really loved it. Now, who knows, revisiting it, if I will keep it up in that top tier of L Word episodes, but I really would be surprised if it wasn’t my favorite episode of Gen Q, at least up until this point. Who knows, maybe they’re just going to hit a stride and everything’s going to be great?

Riese: I guess it probably is my favorite episode. What was my favorite before this? Oh, the one where they had the threesome.

Drew: Yeah.

Analyssa: Oh yeah, that’s a good one.

Drew: We love a party.

Analyssa: Which is the thing — I also really loved this episode, and I think the thing that is most fun for The L Word. And I think in the original, this happens too, but less around big events, is having everyone connected over one thing.

Riese: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Analyssa: I’m thinking of the text tree of The L Word, when things ripple through the cast, that is always fun. And that’s sort of what this felt like.

Riese: Yeah. And I think they’ve really set up more ongoing romantic storylines that involve existing characters, than I think ever before.

Drew: Yeah.

Riese: They’ve really just put everyone into the cesspool, there’s no outside.

Analyssa: Right. It’s not—

Drew: Just Tom.

Riese: Yeah, Tom is the only interloper.

Drew: Yeah.

Riese: Everyone else was there all along. And everybody has feelings about all of these relationships.

Drew: Yeah, it’s really fun.

Riese: Having Gigi date both Bette and Dani? Bold. And I salute it.

Drew: Yeah, it’s really bold. I really love it. I love Gigi so much.

Analyssa: And she’s dated Nat and hooked up with Alice.

Riese: Right.

Drew: Gigi, I love you.

Riese: Yeah. I can’t wait until we find out what happened to the rest of her shirt.

Analyssa: Do you think in the next episode she’s going to be wearing just the—

Riese: A dickey.

Analyssa: Cleavage down to tucked in, that’s it?

Riese: Yeah, it’s going to be just the—

Analyssa: I guess that’s like a strapless top, but sweater version.

Riese: Yeah. Which I think is very cool for Fall.

Drew: Yes.

Riese: How’d you guys feel about the development of Sophie and Finley’s relationship?

Drew: Other than it being pure evil, how it was done, I’m excited that they’re together. I like them together. I’m excited that that’s where we’re moving towards.

Riese: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Drew: You’re excited.

Riese: Oh, I’m just curious, because you let me talk about that scene, so I—

Analyssa: Oh, I love a karaoke scene as a romantic gesture, like in Gilmore Girls.

Riese: Do you think that Sophie and Alice should start a band?

Analyssa: Yeah.

Drew: Yes. Very much so.

Riese: I think so too.

Analyssa: That could be a fun after-work activity for them.

Drew: Yeah.

Riese: Yeah. Because Alice obviously has free time.

Analyssa: Maybe that should be their next segment.

Riese: Oh yeah.

Drew: Oh.

Riese: “Let’s start a band.”

Analyssa: Instead of historical lesbians, it’s like—

Riese: Everyday queer heroes.

Drew: I wonder if Alice ever sings on her show.

Riese: Oh yeah, she should.

Analyssa: That’s interesting, she should.

Riese: Rosie would sing on her show. Ellen danced.

Analyssa: If the writers of the Alice show are listening to this, we have some pitches.

Riese: Yeah, we have some ideas for segments.

Lauren: Thank you so much for listening to this episode of To L and Back Generation Q! One of two podcasts brought to you by Autostraddle.com. You can follow us on Instagram and Twitter @tolandback. You can also email us at tolandbackcast@gmail.com. Don’t forget, we also have a hotline! Yes, it still exists! Give us a call, leave us a message, or just give us a piece of your mind! You can reach us at 971-217-6130! We also have merch! Head over to store.autostraddle.com. There are “Bette Porter For President” t-shirts, there are To L and Back stickers, and lots of other simply iconic Autostraddle merchandise. Our theme song is by the talented Be Steadwell. Our brand new To L and Back: Generation Q logo is by the incredible Jacqi Ko! Jacqi is so, so talented and you should definitely go check out her work, I’ve linked her website and socials in the show notes! And definitely let us know if you want us to make stickers of the new logo, because I think those would look pretty sick! This episode was produced, edited and mixed by me, Lauren Klein, you can find me on Instagram @laurentaylorklein and on Twitter @ltklein. You can follow Drew everywhere @draw_gregory. That’s “Drew” in the present tense. You can follow Analyssa on Instragram @analocaa, with two As, and on Twitter @analoca_, with one A and an underscore. And you can follow our in-house L Word savant and living legend, Riese Bernard, everywhere @autowin. Autostraddle is @autostraddle. And of course, the reason we are all here… Autostraddle.com. Okay. So sticking with the trend of last week with our now full-of-intention L words, we are going to end this episode with an L word that describes what we thought of this episode. So Drew, Riese, Analyssa, what are your L words?

Drew: Mine is really more of a phrase, but it’s “Let’s do this.” Because the energy that I want… I’m like, I love this episode. And now you’re doing things the way I want them. And let’s just keep this rolling. Obviously, every episode won’t be a fun karaoke episode, but some of the ways that things are improving in the way that the writing is and the storylines, et cetera. Let’s just keep going. Let’s just make The L Word this fun soap opera that we can scream about, and enjoy these beautiful evil characters.

Analyssa: Mine is “Lady Gaga” because I think that’s a great karaoke choice.

Riese: That’s a good thing. Mine is, “Lactose intolerant.”

Drew: You do that one a lot.

Analyssa: I was going to say, I think you’ve that one already.

Riese: What? Huh? No.

Drew: You could say “Landslide,” another great karaoke choice.

Riese: This is the first time I’ve said “Lactose intolerant.”

Analyssa: Great.

Drew: Oh, “Landslide.”

Analyssa: You can say “lactose intolerant” and for this episode, it’s because Dani and Gigi are eating ice cream.

Drew: Are you intolerant to Gigi being hot with an ice cream?

Riese: No, I think everyone should make love to a plastic spoon at least once in their lifetime.

Drew: Yeah. It really does it for me. I feel like some people—

Riese: Okay, I’ll say, “Lavender” because that’s a pretentious flavor of ice cream that probably Gigi would order.

Drew: Yeah. I see that.

Analyssa: Yeah.

Drew: Yeah. Well, I’m going to go get some lavender ice cream, and hope that I run into Gigi.

Riese: That’s so cute, you guys.

Drew: Thanks.

Riese: I am going to love Carol.

“Wait, Is This a Date?” Podcast Episode 105: Best Sex Ever

Our episode topic this week is Best Sex Ever so we are talking about… the best sex we’ve ever had! We’re joined by Autostraddle writer, poet, and journalist Dani Janae as we get into some steamy anecdotes followed by an in-depth discussion about what makes good sex good. And we spend a lot of time on my sexual hang ups that I may or may not have actually done a lot of work on this summer!

Come for the lesbian movie-themed game, stay for the coming.

SHOW NOTES

+ The 200 Best Lesbian+ Movies list that Christina pulled the game from.

+ If you haven’t read Dani’s Anatomy of a Mango series you really must.

+ This is the essay I wrote about the person I talk about on the episode. It’s only been two years but so much has changed!

+ The summer has passed and we still stan Olivia Rodrigo. Watch the “Brutal” music video.

Dani: The cat and the dog were in the room and there was cat and dog hair everywhere. And so, I was definitely having an allergic reaction while we were having sex. But the orgasm was like chef’s kiss. It was the perfect, perfect experience physically.

Christina: I wonder if it’s something about the hives that really added a little je ne sais quoi to that orgasmic experience.

Theme song plays

Drew: Welcome to Wait, Is This a Date?

Christina: Wait, Is This a Date? is an Autostraddle podcast all about, you guessed it, dating.

Drew: Yay! I love dating. I’m Drew Gregory. I’m a writer for Autostraddle, and a filmmaker, and just general trans gay person around the internet and… I was going to say world, but it’s really more like Los Angeles and New York.

Christina: I love this globe trotting gay personality you’re taking on right here in 2021.

Drew: I want that. Yeah, it’s for the future.

Christina: Yeah. I am your other host, Christina Tucker, also a writer for Autostraddle, deranged loud gay on the internet. Just kind of out here, writing, being gay, doing what we can every minute to try to work through this life that we’re living.

Drew: You’re really doing it. You’re really working through that life.

Christina: Frankly, it’s all I can do. That’s all I have, it’s the only option.

Drew: I really respect the attempt.

Christina: The attempt to live?

Drew: Yeah.

Christina: Yeah. Actually, really brave of me to even attempt it. You’re not wrong, you are not wrong. Would you be interested in playing a little game today, Drew?

Drew: Oh my God, I’m so excited. Can’t wait to see what you have for me.

Christina: I’m so glad you said that because you absolutely have to say yes, because that’s part of this deal that we’ve created here. So you might be familiar with the fact that on autostraddle.com, the website, we have a list of 200 lesbian movies.

Drew: I am aware of it. I may have written it.

Christina: You may have. What I have done is pull a selection of 10 of those films. I’ve kept them to the top 50. I’m going to give you the plot keywords as decided by users on IMDb and you are going to have to guess what movie it is.

Drew: Okay. I just want the listeners, wherever you are, to know that I am not going to pull up the list. I think that’s right, am I assuming that’s correct in how I should be respecting this game?

Christina: I think that’s very respectful and I think that’s fair. I also kind of trust that this is going be something that comes to mind pretty easy for you, I didn’t go too left.

Drew: I have a terrible memory, but yes, I’m going to try to set people up for low expectations.

Christina: Fair enough.

Drew: So if I do really well, it’s like kind of blow them away, and if I don’t do well, they’ll be like, “Well, she mentioned…” Anyways, continue. Let’s start this.

Christina: Let’s start. I will start with pretty general ones and I will get more specific as we go, because some of them are literally just what the movie is in two words. So we’re going to try to start with a wider experience here.

Drew: I love it.

Christina: Our first film: drugs is the first plot word. Manhattan, New York City is the second. Hate crime is the third.

Drew: Okay. It’s All Over Me.

Christina: Yes, it is! See, I knew you would be able to do this.

Drew: Great.

Christina: I absolutely knew you’d be able to do this.

Drew: Also, I just need to let people know that that is one of the most underrated lesbian movies, and you really need to see it. And Leisha Hailey in that movie has been my phone background for a couple years now. So just a fun little fact there for all of you.

Christina: We love that. All right, movie number two. “Unknown father,” organ donor, cemetery, death of son. Oh, she’s thinking.

Drew: I feel like I should definitely get this based on — wait, unknown father, death of son, organ donor. Oh, All About My Mother.

Christina: There it is, see.

Drew: Another one of my favorites.

Christina: It’s very thrilling to see the things that people decide are a plot keyword that they need to pull from these films. I’m also not reading any of the ones that are just lesbian because that seems kind of like a gimme.

Drew: That’s how I put together a lot of the list because if you look up lesbian movies, what you found was the old Autostraddle list or some lists that aren’t very thorough, so I would actually scroll through lists of the keywords of lesbian, lesbian kissing, these things like girls kissing, these things, in order to find movies where they’re maybe not thought of as a lesbian movie because they’re a little bit more interesting, or just a little bit less direct, and that’s how I found some of the movies that are now on the list, so full circle.

Christina: Listen, IMDb keywords coming in handy for everybody all the time. This one, people went wild on this one. So just going to read some random words to you. Hey, whistling, girl, black sports bra, river, stomping out a cigarette, on the job accident.

Drew: On the job accident? Oh, I thought I had it and then, well—

Christina: Cold, in parentheses, the temperature.

Drew: Because initially I was going to say Foxfire, but then the on the job accident switched me up. On the job accident.

Christina: Do you want some more?

Drew: Yeah.

Christina: Pickup truck crashes through a fence.

Drew: Is it Miseducation of Cameron Post?

Christina: It is not.

Drew: Because on the job accident would be a really awful way of describing that one of the gay because you’re trying to convert to not gayness, tries to mutilate themselves or does mutilate themselves. That’d be pretty intense, but I didn’t know with the IMDb thinkers. Okay, wait, this is tricking me up.

Christina: Do you want some more from me?

Drew: Truck through a fence. I’m sure it’s something that I’m just not… Yeah, keep going.

Christina: Reference to a school loan. These are so nuts.

Drew: Wait, have you seen this movie?

Christina: I have seen this movie.

Drew: Is it wild that I’m not getting it?

Christina: It’s a little wild. I can give you a year, if you want a year.

Drew: If you give me a year, I’ll definitely get it.

Christina: Okay. 2016 is your year.

Drew: 2016. Okay, tell me what it is.

Christina: It is the film, Certain Women, 2016.

Drew: Oh! Yeah.

Christina: I really thought pickup truck crashes through a fence would get you, but I also just love these people just pulling out nouns and just being like, “male.” Is that what you think?

Drew: Yeah.

Christina: Okay.

Drew: That’s a great movie. I need to see that again.

Christina: It is. It’s a great movie.

Drew: Yeah, it’s a really great movie.

Christina: All right, our next film. Kissing while having sex.

Drew: The best kind of both, maybe, you might say.

Christina: Seduction, dude ranch.

Drew: Is it Desert Hearts?

Christina: Yeah. So I was like, “Okay, you got to get that after that one.” The other one I was going to give you was — “nipples” was the really prominently featured. And I was like, “Sure, that is part of that film.”

Drew: God, Desert Hearts. You know how there’s all these annoying people out there trying to be Shane. Sorry, I mean, if you’re trying to be Shane, I accept you. But me, my annoying thing is that I’m trying to be Cay. Cay in that movie is like that is who I think of as the kind of lesbian that I want to be.

Christina: Yeah, that’s true, can confirm. All right, are we ready for our next one?

Drew: Yeah.

Christina: Year—

Drew: Wait, no, I have one more thing to say about Desert Hearts.

Christina: Sure.

Drew: After the last time I re-watched it over the summer, it sort of sent me into a slight spiral, and I texted this older semi-closeted person who I had sort of started tentatively wanting to date or date whatever, and who had disappeared for a month, and I had given up on because I don’t beg people to date me. But I just was like, “Okay.” I watched Desert Hearts and I was like, “I guess maybe sometimes people have their internalized whatever.” And I texted her and I said, “If we never meet, I think you’re going to regret it.” And we did meet, so that’s what Desert Hearts can do to you.

Christina: Wow, that’s a really powerful endorsement.

Drew: We probably shouldn’t have met. I probably should have just let it be. But anyways, moving on, next movie.

Christina: Our next film, metaphysics, scene during opening credits — what that means, it’s up to you — high school soccer, Chicago, Illinois.

Drew: Oh, Princess Cyd.

Christina: There you go.

Drew: That’s another great movie. I like that I keep being surprised by this list that I had a very strong hand in ranking. It’s not my ranking, but I did have a big say in the ranking and I love it.

Christina: Yeah. I just want to be clear to you and our listeners — again, I picked from the top 50, so these are really good ones. Of the good ones, these are good ones. I know Drew’s going to continually say this is a great movie after every one, but—

Drew: They’re really good movies, you guys should watch them.

Christina: All right. Short skirt with heels.

Drew: Love it.

Christina: Cock blocked, mini skirt with boots.

Drew: I mean, is it Blockers?

Christina: It is not. That would be too easy, I think, for Blockers.

Drew: I don’t remember any miniskirts, but—

Christina: Female rear nudity.

Drew: Okay. Wait a second. Okay, what a second. Okay, cock blocked, mini skirt, female rear nudity.

Christina: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Break dance.

Drew: Is it Bound?

Christina: It’s not.

Drew: No, I would love a break dancing scene.

Christina: I love a break dancing scene in Bound.

Drew: A break dancing scene.

Christina: I’m going to give you: English woman abroad.

Drew: English woman abroad? This is another one where I feel I definitely should get it.

Christina: I’m going to have to give you a pretty obvious one at some point, so that’s going to help.

Drew: Okay, give me an obvious one.

Christina: Undercover agent.

Drew: Is it D.E.B.S?

Christina: It is not D.E.B.S. It’s adjacent to D.E.B.S., type of film wise. Here’s another one, intrigue.

Drew: Okay, wait, there’s not that many genre movies.

Christina: There aren’t, that is true.

Drew: Undercover agent. Well, maybe they’re using the term, is it The Handmaiden?

Christina: It is not.

Drew: Okay, I didn’t think so. Undercover agent.

Christina: Do you want your year?

Drew: I thought that… Sure.

Christina: Your year is 2017.

Drew: Undercover agent.

Christina: I’m so sorry. You’re going to feel so dumb when I say the title of this one.

Drew: Oh no.

Christina: I’m really sorry about that, but that’s kind of just the way the cookie crumbles.

Drew: Oh, it’s Carol.

Christina: No, it’s not Carol.

Drew: No, it says 2015.

Christina: Yes, I know that. It’s not Carol.

Drew: But there’s an undercover — the guy, that’s where I was thinking. Okay, what is it? Why does it make me feel stupid?

Christina: It’s Atomic Blonde, you dummy.

Drew: Oh, that’s in the top 50?

Christina: It is. I know.

Drew: Oh, okay.

Christina: All right. We’ve got four more, you ready?

Drew: I don’t feel that stupid because that one I… I mean, I think Atomic Blonde is fun, but I don’t think it’s great. That would not be in my personal top 50. I do want the world to know that I know that Carol came out in 2015. My brain hurt. I just want the world to know that. Anyways, continue.

Christina: The world now knows that, the record has been reflected. All righty: restaurant, sense of smell, novelist, reference to a hamburger, reference to Larry King, based on memoir, alcoholic, theft, woman wears eyeglasses, living alone, destroying evidence.

Drew: The reference to Larry King is really—

Christina: It’s a really weird one.

Drew: Reference to Larry King, destroying evidence.

Christina: Cat.

Drew: Oh, is it Can You Ever Forgive Me?

Christina: It is.

Drew: I needed to redeem myself. I was really in a slump there.

Christina: You nailed it. I think you got there, I think you absolutely got there. All right, three more, our top three. I think these ones will be easy for you because I know you.

Drew: Great, okay, well…

Christina: I know, but I’m saying, are you ready?

Drew: Okay, yeah.

Christina: Mental health, drug overdose.

Drew: Is it Foxfire?

Christina: No. Photographer.

Drew: Oh, Higher.

Christina: There we go. Tattoo, girl gang.

Drew: Is this Foxfire?

Christina: Yeah.

Drew: Oh, I know Foxfire.

Christina: I was like, “Oh, she’s going to just keep guessing Foxfire until I just give her Foxfire.”

Drew: The secret is that I love Foxfire and I keep wanting to think about Foxfire.

Christina: I mean, whomst among us?

Drew: Angelina Jolie, gosh.

Christina: All right. This one, one of them is—

Drew: This is the last one?

Christina:This is the last one. This is our last one. Church, denial, family relationships.

Drew: Is it Miseducation of Cameron Post?

Christina: It’s not.

Drew: Is it But I’m a Cheerleader?

Christina: It is, yes.

Drew: Yes. Comedic Miseducation of Cameron Post.

Christina: Jokes on jokes. So that was the game I’m calling, How Well Does Drew Know Lesbian Movies???

Drew: I love how good we are coming up with names for our games.

Christina: Yeah, it’s actually mortifying that I even wrote that in the title of a Google Doc, what was I thinking? That doesn’t even look good in my Google Docs.

Drew: I had a great time and I’m really glad that I got to tell all the listeners about all the movies that they should watch. And we’ll put the list in the show notes.

Christina: Absolutely.

Drew: I would say that the list is now at a place where I think you would get something out of watching all 200 movies. The first version of the list, there was some stuff on there that I was not too pleased with. There still is stuff that I think that I don’t personally but I think that as a whole, there’s a certain quality control after this most recent update that I feel very pleased with and I think they’re all worth seeing.

Christina: Our main topic today is about the best sex ever. And we had to bring in just an absolute fountain of knowledge on this front. We had to bring in the person we knew who would come in and say, “Listen up, I got tales to tell, I got stories, I got thoughts, I got opinions.” And that person is our dear friend, Dani. Would you like to introduce yourself to the listeners at home?

Dani: Hi, my name’s Dani Janae. I am a writer at Autostraddle. I’m a poet. I’m also a journalist now, which is a new title that I’ve added to my resume.

Christina: We love that.

Dani: Yeah, I’m a writer, that’s what I do.

Christina: And here we all are to talk about the best sex ever.

Dani: Yes.

Drew: Yeah. Maybe let’s start with that. Then, do you feel, as a writer, because I know that you write about sex, have written about sex, do you feel like you are more inclined to write about sex that is really, really good or sex that is maybe complicated and not as good?

Christina: That’s a good question.

Dani: That is a really good question. I think that I tend to write about sex that is really, really good.

Drew: We love that.

Dani: Yeah. I tend to write about sex that is stamped in my memory as like, “Oh, that was fucking awesome.” But also there are sex stories that I have written that are also complicated and have layers to them, you know? But I definitely lean toward trying to emphasize the positive sexual experiences.

Drew: Yeah. I mean, I guess also those things don’t have to be mutually exclusive. Thinking about some of my best sexual experiences, some of them were really good physically and complicated emotionally, or maybe vice versa, but I don’t know, maybe for all of us, I’m curious… Well, first of all, when someone says best sex ever, is there a person or an experience that you immediately think about?

Dani: Yeah, totally.

Christina: Oh, that rocks. See, I was like, I got there and I do think it is true, what I was thinking, but it didn’t come immediately to mind, it wasn’t like, “Oh yeah, I think about that specific sex I had all the time.” But when I was given this prompt by us creating this podcast and thus this episode of this podcast, I was like, “Oh no, that would be it.” I felt part of me was like, “Is it it? If it doesn’t hit that hard, can you really say that that is the best sex ever?” If it’s not immediate, can you just be out here calling any sex you find on the corner, the best sex ever? I don’t know, maybe you can.

Drew: I would love to know what you eventually came up with, but first, Dani, you obviously can get into as many or as few details as you feel comfortable sharing. But I would love for you to give us a little bit of info about that automatic, yes, this was the best sex ever.

Christina: Yes, automatic, impressive.

Dani: Yeah. Well, I have two experiences that I would say are tied for the best sex ever.

Christina: Okay. Brag, absolute, incredible.

Dani: Yeah, so the first one was, unfortunately, with my ex that I do not talk to anymore which is complicated, but I remember it so vividly, it was the second date. First date we had already hooked up and it was fine, but the second date was mind blowing. We had gone to this tea shop that she worked at as a tea specialist, and had tea, and all this sexual tension. And then we went back to her place and just had really intense, passionate sex that was really new for me because I always identifed as a hoe. So I had a lot of sexual partners that I was a top and I wasn’t really letting them touch me, and all that sort of stuff. So this was the first time that I was really being vulnerable in a sexual way with somebody, and letting them pleasure me, so it was just super intense.

Christina: Yeah, that tracks.

Dani: The second one was with the person that I hooked up with after I broke up with that woman. And this person was someone that I liked but I was definitely putting them on the back burner, waiting for somebody else to text me back. And they just totally rocked it out and changed my mind about this other person. And that was one of the sex stories that I tell a lot because it was so wild of like — I went over to their house to hang out and I wasn’t expecting anything, I was just expecting to have a chill time, so I had dressed kind of sloppily and was not really in the mood. And then a bunch of little things happened that were like, “Are we going to fuck now?” And then I finally asked like, “Did you invite me over here to have sex? Are we going to have sex?” And they were like, “Yeah, that’s what I wanted to happen.” And it was like, the cat and the dog were in the room, and there was cat and dog hair everywhere. And so, I was definitely having an allergic reaction while we were having sex, but the orgasm was like chef’s kiss. It was the perfect experience physically.

Christina: I wonder if it’s something about the hives that really added a little je ne sais quoi to that orgasm experience. Just like, “Ooh, I’m a little itchy also.” I wonder how much that factored in.

Dani: Yeah, exactly.

Drew: I love the range of those experiences of one is like, “Oh, we were having tea and there was sexual tension that was building up.” And you’re like, “Yeah, that led to the best sex ever.” And then you have, “There was dog hair everywhere, I was having an allergic reaction, I wasn’t expecting it, and that also was the best sex ever.” I really love that range. Okay, Christina, your turn.

Christina: Yeah. So when I was thinking about it, I realized that it was the first woman who I ever went on a date with. We had gone on four dates, we had a good chemistry but nothing to talk about. Even on our first date, I was like, “Our chemistry is good, but what’s happening here? Don’t know, don’t necessarily care for it.” And then she was busy or had some emotional thing that she wasn’t done with. And I was like, “Fine, whatever.” This was in the summertime. And then it was months later, because it was between the week of Christmas and New Year when I worked in Academia and I would get that week off so I could do truly whatever I wanted. And I ended up at my favorite bar, bartenders’ pouring big old gulps of whiskey. And I was like, “What if I just shoot her a text?” And I just texted her and said, “I’m still mad we never had sex.” And she said, “What are you doing now?” And I said, “Nothing.” And I immediately dipped from my friend in the bar, hopped into an Uber that was in fact not an Uber. Well, I tried to get into a car that was not an Uber, just a woman at a stoplight. She was like, “Ma’am, please stop.”

Drew: “I need to have the best sex in my life!”

Christina: I went back to her apartment in some weird neighborhood in Boston that I had never been in, and was like, “Oh, this is incredible sex, this is incredible sex.” Also, I’m going to die because the next morning I was so hungover, I could not see, and I woke up in Charlestown or somewhere absolutely on the opposite side of the earth from where I lived. But the sex was incredible despite the fact that we still, even in the two seconds of pretense, chit chat conversation, I was like, “We have nothing to talk about, why are we doing this?” I was very clear in my text. “Why are we doing this?” Good sex though? Good for her, hope she’s well. Drew, it’s your turn.

Drew: No, I guess it would be my turn. Yeah. So I was thinking about this and I do think that I can’t answer it any other way, but this person who I met at this concert, and I was already pretty drunk, and it was just this whirlwind of she was from Brazil, and was there with a bunch of Brazilian friends, and they were all speaking Portuguese, and I was just very much like, “I have no idea what’s going on.” And then she was inviting me along with her friends and then said something to her friend… It’s so interesting to… Anyways, okay. I’m just going to tell the story, honestly. I mean, I think I already wrote about this.

Christina: I was going to say you’ve written about this experience.

Drew: I know. I don’t know why I’m feeling weird about it. I think because when I wrote about it, I’ve done a lot of work on myself since 2019 and I’m really proud of that work. So basically what happened was she misgendered me to her friend and I was like, “Oh God, I’m so stupid, this person who was complimenting me.” I thought it was that she was flirting with me, but really she saw me as a flamboyant, she’s like, “Ooh, fun, flamboyant, queer guy.” So I was like, “Oh God.” So I was like, “I’m a woman.” And she was like, “Oh.” And I was like, “I’m a gay woman.” And she was, “Oh, so you’re into girls.” And I was “Yeah.” And she was “Great.” And then she started making out with me.

Christina: Incredible turnaround time.

Drew: I think there was something about the like, “I don’t care.” And she then went on to respect my… she wasn’t misgendering me moving forward, but the idea of like, “I don’t care what gender you are, I just think you’re hot and I want you.” There is something about that that I’m into, and what’s interesting — so then we got into an Uber and I have — someone, on the essay that I wrote this, got mad at me for having sex in the back of an Uber, but I didn’t plan to. I’m not this person generally speaking, but we were just still making out. And her friends were next to us, and I was sitting on her lap because we were all squished into this Uber, and she… So I don’t really know the languages I would use. I would say that usually I’m a top and am very focused on… I’m not stone, I’m still figuring some things out.

Christina: We love that, everyone’s on a journey.

Drew: Yeah. I just usually focus on my partner’s pleasure more than my own. And this is really the only time that that was switched. And she touched my genitalia in a way that to me felt so gender euphoric. I felt I was being fingered and I don’t understand really what she was doing. She just unzipped my pants and whatever, however she was moving her hand, I just felt. I don’t know if it’s because we were in an Uber and I was so not expecting it. I think what can often happen is my dysphoria will be heightened by me thinking, being very conscious, and because I was so not expecting any of this, I just didn’t have a chance to have anything but it feel good. So anyways, I fully had an orgasm in the back of the Uber and then—

Christina: We love to see that, yes.

Drew: I don’t want people to feel bad. I hate the idea that someone would be like, “Oh, poor trans woman who can’t…” I like my sex life, I am trying to figure out how to make it better. But I have cum during sex, but oh, I’ll make myself cum while I’m having sex with someone else because it’s like I can tell they want me to cum. That’s the only time that someone has made me cum.

Christina: Taken the reins and done it.

Drew: And just done something that is — they made me cum. And yeah, it was in the back of Uber. But so we get to this West Hollywood gay bar, and are hooking up, and then we eventually go back to my place and have all sorts of sex. And I guess it’s just so interesting to think about top, bottom dynamics. I feel like the whole evening was so switchy, I still felt in control and then she would take control in these random moments. I don’t know. I let her fuck me, which I never… I’ve let my ex-girlfriend do that, I felt so free with her and we barely talked… And we hooked up one more time or two more times later in the summer. And one time was, again, in public, it was like in a bathroom stall at another West Hollywood gay bar. It was all so chaotic. And I think, I feel a little bit insecure about the fact that that was unequivocally the best sex of my life, all of that, all of the sex that I had with this person. I would love to be able to have sex that felt that good and I felt that comfortable when I also have the vulnerability of… I mean, the first time we had sex, I didn’t even have her social media, or her phone number, or anything, I knew nothing.

Christina: That’s kind of fun.

Drew: I know. And I don’t think that there’s any shame in that or anything but I just… I mean, when I think of other good sex that I’ve had, so much of it is, like, I had this one night stand the last time I visited New York, that was so good. And I’m like, it was because I met — I mean, that, we actually spent the evening getting to know each other and that was like more of a little, I don’t know, link later-esque romantic evening, but I still didn’t really know that person. And the first time that I had really connected good sex with another trans woman, we matched on a dating app and I went that day and I went over. It was so immediate, I didn’t know her and it was really good as opposed to the first person, a trans woman who I had sex with, we were talking a little bit on a dating app and then we went out on a real date. I feel insecure about the fact that I have not had incredible sex with someone who I have an emotional connection with. I’ve developed emotional connections with people who I’ve had good sex with, but yeah, I don’t know, that’s something that I’m thinking about.

Christina: I was wondering that, because as your co-host, I know, and also as your friend, I know that you do like to have that emotional connection, and that emotional connection is very important to you. And listeners if you recall our episode about sexting, you were talking about how you don’t like sexting people that you haven’t actually had sex with in person.

Drew: None of it makes sense.

Christina: And what I see you doing is a little bit of like, “Wait, why did I like this thing that I say that I don’t like so much, but I really liked it in these moments?” I don’t know.

Drew: Yeah, I don’t have an answer.

Christina: You don’t have an answer. Sometimes we’re just weird, sometimes we just like the shit we like.

Drew: So I actually talked to my therapist about this fairly recently where I was talking about how I like fucking my friends and I like having like, “Oh, I’m at a bar, and I meet someone, and I wasn’t expecting to hook up with someone, and all of a sudden, I’m having this whirlwind sexual experience.” And what I feel deeply uncomfortable with is sexual experiences where it’s like, “Oh, we’ve been on a couple of dates and now it’s time that we’re going to have sex.” Or that sort of — there’s some intimacy established, but we don’t feel totally comfortable with each other. And what I realized is it’s because… Or even like, “Oh, I’ve hooked up with this person and it’s going to stay casual, but now we’re going to hook up again.” But we’re not really friends, we can hook up once in a while. And I think the thing is that then it becomes about sex. Whereas if you have a random hookup at a bar, or if you hook up with your friend, it is chaos. It’s about the chaos or with a friend it’s about the intimacy. It’s about like, “Oh, we have a friendship and I guess we’re going to cross this line.” And that’s interesting and fun, and there’s chaos there, but there’s also an intimacy and a trust there. And with someone out at a club, it’s like, “I never have to talk to you. I don’t even know you.” It’s so nothing and it’s so like what’s happening? And again, it pulls me out of my head as opposed to like, “Oh, I am meeting up with this person from this dating app where we are going to go on a date and then we might have sex tonight.” It’s so much about the sex and I get so in my head about it, and I think it makes it so I can’t enjoy myself, or I can enjoy myself, but I can only enjoy myself when I’m focusing on them. And then I’m enjoying making them feel good and making the date be… I’m focused on doing a good job. I’m focused on making them feel like, “Oh, it was good that I went out on this date, and this is a good date, and good success.”

Christina: This “absolute pleasure to have in class” ass comment over here.

Drew: Yeah, I know.

Christina: Dani, where do you see intimacy, chaos, are you like, “I see this pattern where maybe the sex I’ve had leads towards more chaotic experiences that I’m like oh, maybe that’s what I enjoy.” Or is it like, “Maybe there’s a more intimacy route.” Or you’re just kind of like, “Hey, maybe all sex can be good and all sex can be weird, and that’s kind of just the way the cookie crumbles?”

Dani: Yeah, I think that most of my sexual experiences have been with complete strangers that I met on dating apps. And maybe we’ve been talking for like 15 minutes, maybe we’ve been talking for like a couple of days, but usually in those experiences, I’m very toppy, and like Drew said, very focused on the other person’s pleasure. And I find those experiences fun, still. I still have a good time even if I’m not having an orgasm, I still think that they are valuable sexual experiences. The first time I ever had intimate sex with somebody that I was in a relationship with, it sort of just blew my mind in a way, because I was having a sustained emotional relationship with that person and I didn’t expect that sex would be better or different in that sort of environment, but it definitely was for me. Like I said, I was able to let my guard down and be pleasured, and let other people touch me for the first time. And that was a really big deal. But also, I think I just love sex in any form, which sounds like, duh. But yeah, I think I just prefer to be the person that’s giving the pleasure, and being the one that has this in-control sort of role in the sexual relationship. Yeah, for me it’s all about whatever feels good in my body.

Christina: Yeah. I think that can be really hard to predict what we’re going to think feels good on our body on any given day, that is something that can change. So of course, there are days the kinds of sex that I think are great change over time because of my relationship to my body, how I feel at any given moment also changes. So sometimes in retrospect I’m like, “Oh, that was really good.” While in the moment I felt like, “This was fine.” But maybe with the gift of hindsight, I’m like, “Oh, actually that was a little better than I gave it credit for.”

Dani: Totally.

Drew: Can I ask you a question as a bottom?

Christina: Oh, me? Yeah.

Drew: Yes.

Christina: Hello.

Drew: No, as Christina, resident—

Christina: Famous bottom, hello.

Dani: Famous bottom.

Drew: Yeah. The best sex that you’ve had, either one story you told or just good sex that you’ve had in general, do you feel part of that being good has been you feeling comfortable in communicating to the person what you wanted or was it that they were taking control and you truly were able to forget about figuring out what she wanted and that you just were able to sort of give yourself over to them?

Christina: I think it’s a little bit of both. I think in the story that I told, I had had sex with another woman before that, a couple of them before that, and it was fine, but this did feel very much like someone being like, “Can you just shut up and don’t talk? Can you just shut up and just… you’re going to be fine, I’m going to take care of this.” Which was great, love that energy, love to be taken care of. But I do think, especially in more relationship settings, I do think there is a place for having that ability to communicate and feeling comfortable in that communication, but I don’t know. I do think part of my gut reaction to be like, “Oh, the best sex I’ve had is the sex where I don’t have to do all of the work of communicating.” Because famously, I’m a bottom and I don’t like doing work. It’s just not my ministry, I don’t like doing that, it’s not for me, which is complicated because obviously communication is really important in sex, and as is all of the things that we love that come with communication, consent, all of those good things. Sometimes I’m just like, “I don’t know, I’ll just figure it out. I’m so tired.” The silence of two tops like… Mmm, that sounds interesting.

Drew: But no, but I get it. It’s just so interesting because I don’t know—

Christina: And in fairness, I know Drew has a complicated relationship with her top identity, so I just want to put that on the record. I want that in there.

Drew: Thank you.

Christina: I know that.

Drew: Thanks. Yeah, the listener can’t tell that.

Christina: Yeah, I know.

Drew: Well, I’ve had friends be like, “You’re not a top, you’re a bottom who just hasn’t figured their shit out yet.” And so, there was a period of time in 2019, especially after this experience with this one person, where I was like… I mean, I’ve read about this in this essay I wrote about her, where I talk about how after that experience, I was like, “I’m going to be a bottom now, I’m going to find someone who is a very vocal top and have sex with that person.” And I did and it didn’t go well. And I actually feel pretty badly about just… I mean, I don’t think I did anything wrong per se, I just think that it was probably pretty exhausting for them. And probably, as far as like, “Oh, I did a good job, it was worth going out with me.” I don’t think that person left our two encounters feeling that way. I think they left feeling like, “This kid needs to figure her shit out.” I was like, “Why am I forcing that?” Dani, I agree with you where I’ve had some sexual experiences where like yeah, I didn’t cum, it wasn’t focused on me, but I really enjoyed being intimate with that person. And I don’t know, I don’t think that’s inherently worse, I don’t think there’s anything worse about that. I do think there are people who would maybe have had the experiences I’ve had and feel totally satisfied. The reason why I’m dissatisfied is simply because I am dissatisfied, because I have had these hints at these other experiences where I’m like “Oh, I would also like to have that sometimes.” I would also like to have that be a part of what sex looks like to me, but I don’t know. Some of my best sexual experiences haven’t even really been sex, or at least not sex in the way that most people would define it. I don’t know, my 21st birthday hooking up with my… I’m probably not supposed to talk about this. Hooking up with this person who we just made out all night, and teased towards other things but then… No one’s going to listen to this podcast. It was a friend of my sisters and I swore that I would never repeat it, but now it has been so many years that I think — I’m a new gender, I think we’re all fine. But it just was such a sweet, intimate… I don’t know, before I came out, sex to me when I had penetrative sex, I was disassociating. And so, that night I wasn’t because my genitalia wasn’t involved for reasons other than transness. And so, when I think about the best sex I had before transitioning, that was it. But it wasn’t sex, we just felt like making out and had our shirts off, but it was sexual, and it was intimate, and nice, and I don’t know. So I don’t know, I feel complicated about that, because when I said before, that was the only time that I’ve ever had an or someone had given me an orgasm. I mean, for years, I was trying to be a guy, and was having penetrative sex, and I was having orgasms, but I wasn’t enjoying them. And it was more of a biological need/doing what I was to do/it does feel good, but it just is really complicated. So yeah, I think it was really hard for me with my ex once I transitioned to also to transition our sex life. I think it was something we both struggled with, but I definitely would take responsibility for that, of trusting the experimentation or the switching things up that she wanted to do it, rather than she had to do it. I think I was really insecure about that. I mean, it’s so interesting to think about. I mean, I’ve been out of the closet for over four years now, but I really didn’t start exploring the truth of my sexuality until spring of 2019. And then a year plus of that has been in a pandemic where the only people I fucked were my roommates, which was its own exploration and got to try some things with people I feel really comfortable with. But for the most part, I don’t know, that made me feel more confident that I was a top, hooking up with my roommates. Because that was also the first time that I got to top using a strap-on, and that felt great. And I was like, “This is what I want to do.” That felt very good to me. And I was like, “I’m into this.” And so, I don’t know, I mean, now that things are opening up and the world is whatever, who knows where I’ll end up? Anyways, yeah.

Christina: Yeah. Drew, I was wondering what is figuring out if you’re a top or bottom going to really do for you in the end?

Drew: Oh, nothing. I mean, that’s the thing, is for a while there, I let it go. I was really sort of comfortable letting go. But I think for me owning that identity at a certain point was me accepting that if I didn’t want to be penetrated or if I didn’t want someone to touch my genitalia, that that didn’t negate the sexual experience. I could sort of be like, “No, I was topping.” Not that people can’t top and have… Obviously, all these words are very fluid and, I mean, I think labels are as good as what they serve. Being a top is not something that I cling to, it is something that I’m very… I would still probably identify as a top-leaning switch and, I mean, it’s not something that I care that much about. I just think that it probably is an accurate descriptor and helpful in the sense of just me… As I work towards feeling more pleasure and experience — I just think the sexual experiences can provide different things. And maybe I only feel comfortable having certain experiences with certain people, and with other people I want to have a different thing. So maybe if I meet up with someone from a dating app who I’ve been chatting for a little bit, the first times we have sex, I do just want to top them in a way where my genitalia isn’t involved, whatever. And that is okay and that still can be like, I don’t have to be frustrated with myself. I think for a while there I was feeling very much like, “I need to solve this. I need to fix this. How do I fix my broken self?” And getting to a place of being like, “No.” It’s like, “Did you enjoy that experience? Did you enjoy being…” And usually, it’ll be like, “Yeah.” And the sexual experiences that I didn’t enjoy was when I pushed myself, was when I was having sex with someone, wasn’t into them — not wasn’t into them, but wasn’t into doing a certain — or maybe wasn’t into them — or wasn’t into doing whatever act that I felt like I needed to do, and that is actually what was leading to the experiences that were making me feel bad. And that I needed to be easier on myself as far as… There are places where I feel safe to experiment and there are places where it’s like, “No, we’re just going to fall back on old tricks.” I’m like, “That’s okay because you’re just hooking up with this random person and that’s fine.”

Christina: Yeah.

Dani: But where does kink and all that stuff come in for you for sex? Do you remember your first times exploring those parameters with another person?

Christina: That is an excellent question. No, I don’t think kink has come into my life a ton, not because I am not interested, but I think because as the resident non-dater of this dating podcast, I don’t put myself in a position to have those experiences very often. But it is definitely, I think, coming out of this Paul Blart, Mall Cop, it’s on the docket of things, it’s like on the docket of experiences that I’m like, “All right, we’re going to have to enter a new world, we’re going to enter the world again, everybody’s going to get jabbed and do some weird shit, let’s be a little more open to new experiences” than perhaps I have been in the past, because my other reaction usually is like, “No, I’m all set. Actually, I’m going home. I don’t want to have any conversations that I’m not ready for. I wasn’t actually prepared for this. I have to go. I got to go right now.” So I’m trying to do less reactionary “no” and actually allow myself a second to, like — but maybe you would actually enjoy something different than what you assume that you would enjoy. So I think TBD on kink for me.

Drew: I’m excited to see where that goes for you.

Christina: It could go crazy, who can say?

Drew: For me, I think it’s — unsurprising, based on everything I’ve said — I think a lot of it’s been based on what my partner is into and I’m pretty open, but I think for the most part it’s been guided by what my partner is interested in and then I’m like, “Yeah, I can totally do that.” What about you, Dani?

Christina: Yeah, what’s your origin story there?

Dani: Yeah, I think that I’m very similar to Drew in that way of like… The first time that I had ever started having sex that I would describe as kinky was with this woman that I met while I was doing AmeriCorps.

Christina: Love that.

Dani: We were doing that together and she would just ask me to do things to her. And I was like, “Well, I want you to have a good time and I want you to feel like this sexual experience has been fulfilling for you, even if this is something that I’ve never done before, I’ll do it if it makes you feel good.” So yeah, that was my first foray into it and then I was very into it after that. And I would explore it with other partners a little bit. I can definitely be down with kinky sex, but sometimes I just want to be vanilla and just have normal, average sex, yeah.

Christina: Yes. Yeah, I think I just want to have boring sex, that’s like we have a house with a picket fence and 2.5 kids, let’s be boring as shit about this.

Dani: Yeah.

Drew: Yeah. I think there’s a middle ground for me that is usually where I’d like to live. I love when something can be intense enough for me to just get out of my head.

Christina: That does seem to be the thing that—

Drew: It’s such a big thing for me in sex.

Christina: … Is recurring, yeah.

Drew: It’s just like how do I get my brain to… It’s not even turn off, because I want to be present. I can turn my brain off, that’s what I don’t want to do. It’s like I want to be present in a way that is well, present and not… Yeah, I don’t know.

Christina: Yeah, because your brain too “on” is another form of dissociating. It’s too thinky, overthinking that. It’s just another form of deciding to take yourself out of that moment.

Drew: But it depends because it depends if we’re talking about sex that’s kinkier sex or kink that is very organized and thought through, I’m not in a kink community. I’m not one to talk about it in that sense. And I don’t have experience with that. And so, that is very thoughtful and I don’t want to say that’s not thoughtful, but I think what I’m saying… I guess I’m not really talking about kinky sex, I guess I’m more talking about aggressive sex.

Christina: Sure.

Drew: But aggressive sex can be better for me as far as not thinking, whereas if it’s… But then also, more vanilla sex, it can be really lovely and nice. And I think I just maybe have to be more into the person and maybe it’s just been a while since I’ve been really into a person, I don’t know. Dani, when you say that you sometimes really like vanilla sex, is that with any person or is that with someone who you actually might want to have a house in 2.5 kids with?

Dani: Yeah, I think that it is. With my ex that I talked about, even though we’d only gone on a couple of dates, I was definitely on the verge of having feelings for her and being a total dyke about it. And so, I was able to have that very intimate, sensual sex with her in a way that was devoid of any kinkiness. I think because, I don’t know, it just felt like that was a kind of sex that I was supposed to be having with her. I don’t think she would’ve ever asked me to do anything very kinky with her, which is why I sort of explore that side of myself more with very casual hookups, I guess? I’ve had this person that I hook up with on and for a year or more, and that’s a person that I feel safe exploring that side with, and they are very down to do whatever, and demand whatever from me, and I’m totally cool with that. But yeah, I think that it’s very different with different people. But for me, personally, when I have feelings of emotional connection with, it’s a little bit less likely for me to have kinky sex with them.

Christina: Yeah, that’s interesting. As our ending moment in this conversation, should we think about some sex energy we want for the year 2021? What are we hoping for? Apparently, I’m out here exploring kink, I guess.

Drew: Love it.

Christina: Something I said on a podcast, now it’s true. So Dani, what are you hoping to get in your year of 2021? What do you want your sex to look like?

Dani: I definitely want to explore more of the things that I have been dreaming of during my quarantine year in lockdown. So there are things that I was like, “I would never do that.” And then I’m like, “Maybe I would actually.” So getting into those things. But also, I famously have been looking for a tourist wife for a long time.

Christina: We’d make excellent wives, of course, you are.

Dani: So I think that there’s a part of me that wants that stability, but also the ability to be free-roaming, and have sex with other people on the side, and have relationships with other people. So I’m looking forward to exploring that more. I’ve been dating and it’s fine for the most part. And I don’t know where things are going to go with different people, but I guess the big thing that I’m looking forward to is just having sex for the first time in a year.

Christina: Yes, I agree with you there. That seems like it’ll be good when that happens.

Dani: Yeah.

Christina: Drew, what do you got?

Drew: Yeah, so since my ex and I broke up, I have not had sex with anyone more than two times, everyone who I’ve had sex with, we’ve either had sex once or twice. Some of those I would’ve had sex with them more times, but it just didn’t work out. And some of them, not so much. And I think, though, a lot of it is somewhat of a defense mechanism. You don’t really have to explore certain things or really get into certain things… Well, I was doing that on my own, but you don’t have to do it with another person when you’re only having sex casually in that way. So I think probably I would like to have sex with someone like, I don’t know, three times, four times, who knows, or even more? Look, I think you can explore on your own, absolutely, I have been, and I really have. If I sound fucked up right now, you should have seen me in 2019, I’ve really made so much progress. And I think that exploration on my own was really important to me, but now I feel like I’m at a place where bringing a partner in or partners in who get to know me a little bit more intimately and having to confront that vulnerability is probably what would really serve me.

Christina: So I think it feels like everyone has kind of a ho shit but maybe allows some feelings to creep in. Everyone’s like, “Ho shit for sure, but also feelings? Not opposed.” Cool, I think that’s great. I think it’s a great place to be here in 2021. Does that mean it’s time for our second to last segment, called crush corner where we talk about things we have crushes on? Things, people, usually people. I don’t think any of us has picked a random thing.

Drew: I think, but that’s a good challenge for the future.

Christina: That could be fun. That could be fun.

Drew: Dani, do you have a crush for us today?

Dani: Yeah. I am very consistent, so I have had the same crush for a long ass time.

Drew: We love it.

Dani: And that is none other than Queen Latifah. I think about her all the time.

Christina: Yeah. God, that’s beautiful, yeah.

Dani: Yeah. I remember being a kid and watching her romantic comedies and being like, “Wow, she’s fucking beautiful.” And seeing her as a romantic lead, as a woman who was not petite, and who was Black, and all those things, it was really revolutionary for me as a little fat kid. Yeah, so I have a major crush on her. I took that Autostraddle quiz that we did a while ago that was your dream celebrity date or whatever, and I got her, and I was like, “That makes sense.” Yeah.

Christina: Absolutely. Yeah, she is really quite a formative moment that—

Dani: Oh yeah.

Christina: … Chicago really did.
Dani: Oh, yeah.

Christina: It’s a lot to take in for a young CT. Drew, who are you crushing on this week?

Drew: Well, okay, so we had a conversation earlier today where we decided… We were both gushing about the same person, and then we were both like, “Can we not sexually say that this person is our crush because of just our pop culture enthusiasm for her, even though it is not sexual because she is a child?” And that person is Olivia Rodrigo.

Christina: Yeah. So that damn album came out today.

Drew: Yeah, we recorded these early, so that’s a little context.

Christina: So listeners, you’re going to say, “Oh, that album that I have memorized by this point, the thing I’ve been listening to for months on repeat?” And I will say, no matter when this episode comes out, I will say, “Same, I am also listening to it, still probably.” I texted Drew this morning and said, “Could we just transition into having a Sour podcast? It’s just only about this album.” She is a phenomenal talent. I think I am so thrilled to see her teenage rage, and joy, and anger and insecurity all in one album. It feels incredible to bang and when I finally deign to visit my parents, I will turn that shit all the way up, and drive down the streets I used to live on, and just cruise with my feelings, and it’ll feel so good. So thank you, Olivia. And again, I can’t express how non-sexual this is, you are so young. God bless you, girl. Go off, but my gosh, oh God.

Drew: Yeah. I was really a skeptic at first when “Driver’s License” came out. I was like, “I’m not going to listen to a song written by a 17-year-old. I’m getting too old for that, I’m sorry, whatever.” And then I listened and then I was like, “Oh, okay.” I mean, look, as we established at the beginning of this episode, I love coming of age movies and I think there’s something about adolescence that… I mean, I think for a lot of queer people, it feels really palpable because we didn’t necessarily have the adolescence we wanted, or maybe we feel like we’re having a second adolescence, or whatever. It’s not an excuse for bad behavior, but I do think it is a pretty common pattern. And I think there is something about art focusing on teenagers, made by teenagers that can just feel… there’s just like an emotion to it that just, I don’t know, it just really speaks to me and feels I can channel some lowercase ‘t’ trauma, maybe a little bit of uppercase ‘t’ trauma. I certainly did not have an experience like Olivia’s that inspired this album. There’s something about the emotion of it that it just feels so resonant and brings me back. And I was just dancing around the house listening to it.

Christina: It’s good as hell. Well, we have one last question for our guest before we leave and that was, Dani, was this a date? Was us recording this podcast right now a date? Are we all three of us on a date? It’s possible.

Dani: I hope so.

Christina: See, love that, love that energy. Drew always says, “Yes, it’s a date.” And I’m like, “Is it though?”

Drew: I don’t think every podcast recording is a date. I do think every time I go on a date with someone, it’s a date, which you don’t.

Christina: And that’s beautiful.

Drew: And sometimes they don’t… Look, being queer is a wild journey for all of us.

Dani: Yes.

Christina: We’re all just trying to learn something.

Drew: Dani, where can people find you and your work?

Dani: You can find me on Autostraddle, just search Dani Janae and you’ll find me. You can find me on Instagram @bell.biv.dahoe, that’s my Instagram handle. And then I’m also on Twitter @figwidow, that’s F-I-G-W-I-D-O-W. Yeah, that’s where you can find me.

Drew: Great. Thank you so much for being with us today!

Dani: Thank you for having me, this was fun!

Christina: Yeah, thanks for kicking it!

Drew: Thank you so much for listening to Wait, Is This a Date? You can find us on Twitter and Instagram @waitisthisadate and you can also email us at waitisthisadate@gmail.com.

Drew: And you can find me on Twitter, Instagram, and TikTok @draw_gregory. And you can find Autostraddle on all social medias @autostraddle.

Christina: And go visit autostraddle.com because that’s the reason we’re all here today.

Drew: Thank you all so much, and see you next week!

Christina: Yeah, we’ll absolutely see you next week and we can’t wait.

Drew: Yeah, and maybe next week will be a date.

Christina: Hey, maybe it will be, wilder things have happened.

Drew: Except you know what, I also think it’s important to clarify to the listener that if you ask someone if something’s a date or not, you probably should take that as sort of a moving forward, that I don’t think every time you see someone… that’s not really direct communication as much as it is, not really respecting someone’s boundaries. And we do like boundaries here at Wait, Is This a Date?

Christina: The gayest thing about this podcast is that the outro is the boundary.

Drew, in a voice memo: It’s so weird that our best sex ever episode comes out this week because we recorded at the beginning of the summer, and then I spent the summer having the best sex of my life. And not that everything in the episode is inaccurate, it’s like a time capsule. And I love that. It’s like a little inspirational moment for people, of like, “If you are having the problems Drew was having, give it a few months. Everything might be… not everything, let’s take it easy, but you might have some good sex in your future.” Love that for our listeners and for me.

“To L and Back” Generation Q Podcast Episode 205: Lobsters, Too

Oh baby, the boys are back in town! And of course by “the boys” I mean “Cherrie Jaffe” and by “back in town” I mean “standing in front of Shane, causing chaos.” Yes, it turns out that Tess’s new girlfriend of one week that prevented her from kissing Shane back last episode is none other than Cherie “rank little love nest” Peroni (nee Jaffe). She was summoned by all that remembering of the past that our friends were engaging in last week, and she’s here to keep Tess and Shane from kissing any time in the near future!

Speaking of affairs, Finley is attempting to get over Sophie this week by getting under someone else. Also getting under each other are Micah and Maribel! Riese is thrilled. Not getting any action this week is Alice, who is busy crying over Nat and then bonding with Tom over lobsters. And finally, let’s all start the Jordan Hull Emmy campaign right now, everybody in?

SHOW NOTES

Riese’s recap for Episode 205
I just think this headline is very funny: Is a Pony a Baby Horse? A Physical and Emotional Comparison
Max told us what he knew about lobsters in The L Word 3×03
If Bette Porter ever decided to go to solo therapy, we think CORE is an important thing to bring up.
I can’t find the first instance of Autostraddle using “Parking Lot of No Return” to describe the end of Erica Hahn’s time on Grey’s Anatomy, but here’s a list of best gay moments from Grey’s anyway.
I skimmed this medical paper, and it looks like actually in California, donors as young as 15 can donate a kidney with parental permission! Best of luck to Angie with that.
Every Cherie Jaffe sex scene can be revisited in this list, and the vampire episode too!
I won’t link it because the quality is terrible but if anyone wants a link to a cut of all the When Harry Met Sally couple interviews….hmu

Drew: Hi, I’m Drew!

Analyssa: And I’m Analyssa!

Riese: And I’m Riese!

Drew: And this is…

Drew, Analyssa, and Riese: To L and Back: Generation Q edition!

Drew: Yay! We all did it.

Riese: We all did it.

Analyssa: We all said the right words, but I don’t know that we did them at the right time.

Riese: I don’t know that I said the right words.

Analyssa: I think you did say the right words.

Riese: Oh, yeah? Well, we’re off to a great start, then.

Drew: I think we are. We’re all just hanging in there, in this big gay world.

Riese: Sorry, Carol.

Drew: Let out a scream, wherever you’re listening.

Riese: Can you see Carol’s tiny little paws?

Drew: Aww, hi Carol.

Analyssa: Carol wants in the podcast so bad.

Riese: Carol, what do you think about Cherie Jaffe?

Drew: This episode is 2.05, Lobsters, comma, Too. As you’ll remember, Lobsters was an episode in the original series.

Riese: Yes, it was the only episode in the original series that dealt with the class conflict.

Drew: Mm-hmm (affirmative). This is directed by Sarah Pia Anderson, who you may remember from last week, “Lake House,” she also directed, and it’s written by Nancy C. Mejía, who wrote on the first season, as well as Vida, the objectively best show of all time. So, exciting stuff there.

Analyssa: Is “Lobsters” the one where Max argues with them at dinner?

Drew: Yeah.

Riese: Yeah. Where Max is like…

Max: I know something interesting about lobsters.
The rest of the group: What?
Max: And you don’t have to put a lid on the pot when you cook female lobsters.

Drew: Yeah. I was, I think, going into this episode expecting…

Riese: Max?

Drew: No, I was maybe… I don’t know what I was expecting, maybe something more… I mean, maybe we can get into it, but I’m wondering why this episode was called “Lobsters, Too.” I mean, I know why it was called Lobsters, but—

Riese: Right. I got really nervous there for a second, that you had watched the wrong episode, and that I was going to have set up this mic stand all over again.

Analyssa: A pretty clear reason why it’s called Lobsters, but I…

Drew: No, no, no. No, no, no. I know that. I mean, in keeping… I mean we’ve discussed that, potentially, a lot of the writing staff has not recently seen the original series and would not remember the names of earlier episodes, but I was expecting there to be a call-back to that episode of The L Word, and instead it was just like, “Oh, there are lobsters in this episode.”

Riese: Right, yeah. They should have lobsters in every episode, just little lobsters crawling into the screen, like, “I’m a lobster,” you know what I mean? Just for fun. Because they don’t have a lot of animals. They could probably use some more animals. A few lobsters, maybe a giraffe or something.

Drew: Ooh, that’d be fun.

Riese: These are, again, free ideas, free ideas that I just generate here, and I’m giving them out.

Analyssa: And as we know from Riese’s free ideas, these will be incorporated into next season.

Riese: Absolutely.

Analyssa: She’s got a good track record.

Riese: They’re joining the circus.

Drew: Yeah, Maybe Micah and Maribel can—

Riese: Adopt?

Drew: …ride some giraffes, or adopt a giraffe. Yeah, adopt a giraffe.

Riese: Or a dragon.

Drew: Ooh, a dragon?

Riese: Yeah. People love dragons. There’s that song, “Puff the Magic Dragon.”

Analyssa: Great point. I, and everyone, loved Game of Thrones, which famously had dragons in it.

Riese: Correct.

Analyssa: I didn’t know until two days ago that a pony is not just a baby horse.

Riese: What is it?

Analyssa: It’s like a type of horse. Did you guys know that?

Drew: I think I did know that.

Analyssa: I was at a friend’s birthday barbecue outside, and I don’t know how we got talking about this, but someone said something about a pony, and I was like, “Yeah, but then it grows up to be a horse,” and they were like, “No, that’s not what a pony is.” And everyone in the circle, except me, knew this, and I was like, “I don’t think Drew and Riese know this,” and I felt like I would be among my people here.

Riese: What do you call a baby horse?

Analyssa: A foal. F-O-A-L.

Riese: I thought that was what you called a baby… Oh no, that’s a fawn. So ponies are like, small horses?

Analyssa: The way I understand it is like, how a Collie is a type of dog, a pony is a type of horse.

Drew: Wow.

Riese: Oh. So maybe Carol’s a pony.

Drew: The pony of the dog world. Yeah. Should we get into this episode?

Riese: Yeah, sure.

Analyssa: Now that everyone knows…

Riese: … what a pony is?

Analyssa: … the nouns for baby animals, let’s get into the episode.

Drew: Well, we start with Finley puking, which I think we all could have predicted.

Riese: Yeah.

Drew: Then she drinks a beer, which I think we also could have predicted.

Riese: Yeah. That’s a sad state of affairs.

Analyssa: Yeah. It’s not my favorite thing to open on. I think Finley’s sobriety is coming and going, and it makes me nervous for her.

Riese: Yeah. I agree. It makes me nervous for her.

Analyssa: And Sophie would agree with us also.

Drew: Yeah.

Riese: Yeah. And Sophie’s like, “I’m sorry for being dishonest, I actually…” Or like, “I was dishonest with you. I actually went there to see Dani,” and Finley’s like…

Finley: I know.

Riese: And Sophie, for some reason, buys it, that Finley’s okay with it.

Drew: Yeah. I think she wants to. I think we’ve learned this about Sophie, that if she wants to believe something, she can believe it.

Riese: Yeah.

Analyssa: Then she also says that Finley is a good friend, which is complicated to say at this moment.

Riese: I felt like she didn’t mean to emphasize, like, “You’re my friend, not someone I’m dating.” Probably in like an hour, she’ll be like, “Oh, fuck, that probably sounded like this,” but by then, it will be too late, and Finley will already be eight beers deep.

Drew: Yeah.

Analyssa: Did either of you see that TikTok where it’s a girl going back and forth, pretending that she’s asking someone out on a date, but it’s really oblique, and it’s like, “Well maybe if you… If… If…” And it finally gets to them being like, “Yes, we are flirting,” and then at the end, the girl goes, “Okay, bye, bestie.”

Drew: Yes, I did see that.

Riese: I didn’t. I’m stuck on school lunch TikTok.

Analyssa: School lunch TikTok?

Riese: Or not school lunch, mothers packing lunches for their children.

Analyssa: Oh. Those are kind of satisfying, though.

Riese: Yeah, it is. They have these little compartments, and I’m just like, “Wow. I haven’t put this much care into making a meal for myself, maybe ever.”

Analyssa: I get a lot of Disney adult content—

Riese: Oh, I get that too.

Analyssa: … which is not really what I want, but I kind of watch them, so I guess they got me.

Riese: Yeah. They’re like, “Myths about being a Disney adult.” And I’m like, “Tell me more.”

Analyssa: And you’re like, “Yeah, I will listen to what the myths are. I don’t know. Go ahead. Sure.” Okay.

Drew: Speaking of Disney adults, Bette has Gigi. Can you imagine if that was…? I have forgiven Bette for a lot, but—

Riese: Oh my God, what if Gigi was a Disney adult?

Analyssa: Who do we think in The L Word cast is a Disney adult?

Riese: Ooh, good question.

Drew: Wait, the character or the cast member?

Riese: Character. Micah.

Drew: Maybe.

Riese: I think Micah could be a secret Disney adult.

Drew: I think Nat.

Riese: Oh, Nat could. Yeah.

Analyssa: I could see Alice really turning up for gay days at Disney. Don’t you think?

Drew: Yeah.

Riese: Yeah.

Analyssa: A perfect time to wear an insanely-colored jumpsuit. Okay. We’re off topic. Sorry.

Drew: Yeah. Gigi is still in her bed, and Bette is there, and is just out of bed working, and I feel like if I was at Gigi’s place, I… I might be working, but I would work in bed next to beautiful Gigi.

Analyssa: Bette is so over this, though.

Drew: So over it.

Riese: Yeah. Gigi is like, “Do you want to talk about our fight?” And Bette’s like…

Bette: Not unless you need to.

Riese: Then she’s like, “By the way, I’m hanging out with someone later.” And this part I was very grateful for, because in the preview, in the trailer, they have it cut weird, so she’s like, “I want to let you know that later today I’m hanging out… I’m seeing Dani,” but the way it’s cut in the trailer, I was like, “This is not a full sentence. They obviously spliced it together.” And I confirmed in this scene that indeed it was not a full sentence. She said, “I’m seeing someone later,” and then Bette was like…

Bette: That was fast.

Drew: And she’s like, “No, I’m just seeing Dani,” which I’m like, “Oh, just? Okay.” But then Gigi whispers in Bette’s ear…

Gigi: Because you can tell me how you really feel.
Bette: I just did.

Riese: Ooh. This reminded me of the worst part of me in past relationships. I saw myself in this picture and I didn’t like it.

Drew: Yeah. I feel like I also have a hard time showing my feelings, but if Gigi whispered that in my ear, I’d become a Cancer. I think it’d be pretty immediate.

Riese: I’m fine sharing my feelings. I just… I’ve had past relationships where I was criticized for my intense focus on the laptop and disinterest in anyone attempting to distract me from the work I was engaged in. But I have grown past that now.

Drew: I think being focused on your work is one thing. It’s the using it as an excuse to not actually talk about the fight you had…

Analyssa: I also think Bette doesn’t ever want anyone to be like, “Hey, this happened. Should we talk about this?” She wants to only talk about things when she wants to talk about it, and I also think that she’s in the stage of a relationship…. This is something I reckon — this was my, “I’m in this photo and I don’t like it,” where she has already decided that she doesn’t want to be doing this anymore. So literally anything Gigi does, like… Drew, I agree that I would be like, “Ooh, fun,” but that’s because I’m not at the point that Bette is in a relationship with Gigi, and she has just… Anything Gigi said, she would have been like, “No, get out of my face. Don’t even come near me. This is not what I want to be doing.” And more importantly, she has two shiny new toys, which are, number one, Tina’s back in town, and number two, Pippa Pascal is being mean to her at dinner. Both of those are way more exciting to her than Gigi.

Riese: Yeah. Even though Gigi’s wearing a red silk robe.

Analyssa: And they’re in this beautiful loft. Just get back into bed. Whatever.

Drew: Speaking of people who aren’t dating the right person, we go over to Tess and Shane, and we learn that Tess started dating this person, or Tess met the person who she’s dating, last week? What?

Riese: Yeah. At a party, she met… What? She can’t… That’s… What? You’re not seeing someone.

Drew: Like, what? I just like… and also, yeah, kiss Shane. Why are you being like, “Oh, I can’t kiss you. I’m in a relationship.” Like, no, you’re not. You met an older woman at a party last weekend. Who among us hasn’t? Take it easy.

Riese: Yeah.

Drew: And then she’s bringing the person to meet Shane. We can stop saying “This person.” It’s Cherie Jaffe.

Tess: So, Cherie, this is Shane. Shane, this is Cherie.
Shane: Cherie.
Cherie: We’ve actually met before.
Tess: Of course you have.
Finley: Finley!

Riese: It’s Cherie fucking Jaffe!

Drew: You all watched the episode. You know.

Analyssa: It’s Cherie Jaffe.

Riese: First of all, wow. Second of all, oh my God. Third of all, fuck.

Drew: Yeah. Pretty much. Pretty much.

Riese: Is there anyone…? Actually, I was about to be like, “Is there anyone that would be more of a stab in Shane’s heart than Cherie Jaffe?” Then I realized, yes there is, and that would be Carmen, probably followed by Molly, and then Cherie Jaffe.

Drew: Yeah, I screamed, and I’m currently staying with a friend, and their roommates were here, and my friend was not here, and I screamed, and I heard them laugh. I was laughed at because of this.

Riese: And Tess introduces them, and Cherie’s like, “Oh, we’ve met.” Mm-hmm (affirmative). And then Tess is like, “Oh, of course you have,” because the last thing she wants is to be directly connected on the chart through her new Hollywood Hills girlfriend.

Drew: So goofy, so goofy.

Analyssa: Her date of one week.

Riese: Yeah. Her one-week relationship might be spoiled by whatever history Cherie might have with Shane.

Drew: Yeah. My favorite part of this was when Finley introduced herself. Just great clueless Finley moment.

Analyssa: Finley just being in the background of all of these conversations furthers my theory of this being the most insane workplace.

Riese: Yeah.

Analyssa: Never any schedule, and you will always be hearing gossip about Shane and Tess, just anytime you’re on shift.

Riese: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Drew: Yeah.

Riese: Her reintroduction means a lot to me personally, since it was Shane and Cherie Jaffe’s relationship that made me the queer person than I am today.

Drew: That’s really beautiful.

Analyssa: That is beautiful.

Riese: Thank you so much.

Drew: Speaking of older blonde women that could ruin my life, Alice is talking to Tom. He’s congratulating her, and gives her a pen, because her book is adored by the publisher.

Analyssa: She wrote a book in like two days.

Drew: Yeah.

Analyssa: He buys her a fancy pen. She writes him a sweet note and they’re going to hang out.

Drew: It’s really nice. I like these two together.

Riese: Yeah. They want to keep hanging out even though their editorial relationship is over. I wonder why. Maybe they want to bone.

Drew: I think that might be it.

Riese: Speaking of men, it’s time to go to jail.

Drew: Mm-hmm (affirmative). One of The L Word’s favorite places.

Riese: No one’s jumping in to talk about this scene, because no one cares.

Drew: Yeah. Dani’s like, “Am I here as your daughter? As your spin doctor?” And then Dani is the CEO now, because some of the paperwork she signed… I don’t know. If my dad was that guy, I would read the things before I signed them.

Analyssa: I feel like it’s a personality trait of Dani’s to read…

Drew: Yeah, I don’t buy this.

Analyssa: She’s like, “Oh my God, you tricked me. You put a paper that said I would be CEO in front of me to sign.” It’s like, “Yeah, weren’t you reading all those documents? What was happening when he was handing them to you?”

Drew: Here’s the thing. I’m going to give a little tip to the listener out there. Read things before you sign them. Like, okay, do you have to read all the Apple terms and services before you click on it? No, I think that’s fine. But if you’re going to sign a document, you should read it, unless you have a lawyer who you deeply trust to… But you still should probably read it, honestly.

Analyssa: And Dani’s lawyer would have worked for her dad. Anyway, the whole point is, she has to be CEO of Evil Corporation, Los Angeles.

Riese: Evil Incorporated.

Analyssa: Yeah. Or she gets cut off, she doesn’t have any money, and they just bought her this apartment. It’s a whole thing.

Drew: Yeah. I mean, sometimes you just end up being CEO, and you’re like, “Whoops, I’m the CEO of a major corporation.”

Riese: Relatable. This is so relatable to me personally, where I’m like, “I wasn’t prepared for this.”

Analyssa: They’re in jail currently, and she’s like, “Okay, I will be CEO, but you must tell me every bad crime you’ve done, right here, right now.” It’s like, he can’t talk about that here. At least have him write it down. This is such a horrible move. Whatever. It’s fine. Okay. And also, Gigi drove her here.

Drew: Yeah. She’s thrilled about it though. She’s like, “You’re CEO? Hot.”

Riese: “Girl boss!” I mean, if you’re going to have a difficult conversation with your father in jail, you want Gigi to pick you up. I think we can all agree on that.

Drew: Yeah, for sure.

Analyssa: Gigi didn’t park while she was at the jail. She was just sitting idly in the front. There’s no way that they allow that. They hardly allow that at LAX.

Riese: They definitely don’t allow that at LAX. You have to be constantly on the go.

Analyssa: Gigi’s just been driving loops for the 35 minutes that Dani has been berating her dad. Speaking of functioning family dynamics, it’s family therapy time.

Drew: Oh boy.

Riese: Rosie’s back!

Drew: Yeah. So Carrie and Tina are there with Angie. They’re all waiting on Bette, of course. No surprise there.

Riese: Bette’s always late to therapy.

Drew: Yeah. Sort of her thing.

Analyssa: Bette thinks so little of therapy, it’s stunning that anyone asks her to go to it.

Riese: Can you imagine being Bette’s therapist, though? After she was done with her story, you’d be like, “Wow. And this is your first solo therapy session? How old are you?”

Analyssa: “This is just where we are?”

Riese: “We just got…? Okay. All right.”

Drew: “You keep saying that the only time you cheated was on Tina once 17 years ago, but in your story about getting back together with Tina, I feel like you cheated on a few people.”

Riese: “We also do have video from an art installation called ‘Core,’ which we did get at the…” Anyway, Carrie is not excited about seeing Bette, because she doesn’t like Bette at all.

Drew: Yeah. That’s fair.

Analyssa: I feel like that is fair. She also thinks Bette is still in love with Tina, which is also fair.

Drew: Also fair.

Riese: Yeah. Tina’s like, “No she isn’t.”

Drew: Yeah.

Analyssa: Angie also is FaceTiming Jordi from therapy, right?

Drew: Yeah.

Analyssa: Or from waiting.

Drew: And it’s very cute.

Analyssa: It’s really cute. And Jordi is afraid of Bette also, as she should be.

Drew: Yeah. She calls her Ms. Porter, and then when Bette walks in, Jordi says…

Jordi: Love the blazer, Ms. Porter.

Drew: Which I would like on a T-shirt. I would love that on a T-shirt.

Riese: Speaking of blazers, have you noticed that Sophie… This is not speaking of blazers, but we go to a scene with Alice and Sophie. Have you noticed that Sophie is just wearing different types of dark purple plaid flannel shirts? This is like her third… I was trying to make a graphic for the podcast today, and I was like, “Wait, it looks too much like last week’s graphic, because Sophie’s wearing…” It’s not the same shirt, but a very similar shirt, and now today she’s wearing yet another similar shirt.

Drew: Look, sometimes your soon-to-be-marriage falls apart and you just get lazy with fashion. I think that makes sense.

Analyssa: I was just about to say, you know when you break up and you cling to one strong aesthetic, just so you don’t have to think about who you are as a person?

Drew: Yeah, you’re a cartoon character.

Analyssa: Is that relatable to anyone? Riese, I really thought you were going to go from “speaking of blazers” to trailblazers, which is what Sophie wants to do her segment on.

Riese: Oh.

Drew: Oh, wow.

Analyssa: Thank you, guys. She’s pitching this “Everyday queer heroes,” but documentary-style. I don’t know if it will fit into the style of The Alice Show, but I’m excited to see it nonetheless.

Riese: Yeah. This will not be a hit, I can say from the experience of running a website where we all also are charmed and excited and delighted by highlighting real queer heroes and our elders and stuff. It’s not a big…

Drew: Not a big moneymaker.

Riese: Not a big traffic driver, I will say.

Analyssa: In a just world, it would be.

Riese: In a just world, it would be.

Analyssa: As a segment producer for The Alice Show, I feel… Perhaps a different pitch? Okay.

Drew: Yeah.

Riese: What I did enjoy was the slide show. I think she got the best of stock photos possible, and those women did look like they could be lesbians, I think.

Analyssa: And they did important jobs.

Riese: Yeah.

Drew: Yeah. They definitely have someone from the military on the slide show. The L Word continues to be really pro-imperialism.

Riese: Pro-military?

Drew: Yeah.

Analyssa: The thing is that LGBTQ equality is doing bad things too.

Drew: That’s a great point. Yeah.

Analyssa: That’s The L Word’s whole thing, is like, “Cheating, imperialism, whatever. We should be able to do it all.”

Riese: Yeah, exactly.

Drew: That’s a really beautiful, really beautiful idea. The one also important thing here is that Alice says that Nat keeps texting her to get back together, and I don’t love that for Nat. I mean, we don’t know, because we don’t get to spend any time with Nat now that she’s not in Alice’s life. She’s just banned to poly island, where…

Analyssa: Yeah, literally the poly parking lot of no return. She just disappeared.

Drew: Yeah, yep. Just cast her out with all the other sluts, you know?

Riese: Yeah.

Analyssa: Okay. So back in family therapy, this is a whole thing. Okay. First of all, Kayla told Angie about her donor being sick yesterday. The wheels are turning extremely fast. Fine. Okay.

Riese: Well, it wasn’t yesterday, because in that time — somehow Sophie hasn’t seen Finley for a few days, and Alice wrote an entire book.

Analyssa: Right. But then I think in therapy, they say, “yesterday.”

Riese: Oh really?

Analyssa: So you do have to—

Drew: Yes.

Analyssa: You do just have to let go of the bounds of time and space in this world and…

Riese: Of course, of course.

Drew: It’s somewhere between a day and six weeks.

Riese: Yeah. I would say I would agree with that. But actually I do feel like what they have been sticking to really well this season is that they seem to make — every episode takes place in a day, but the distance of time for each individual storyline from the last time we saw a day is wildly different. Everyone is on a completely different time space continuum.

Analyssa: We’re kind of in a Westworld situation where all the characters are in different timelines. And sometimes they link up, but not always.

Riese: Exactly. Exactly.

Analyssa: Okay. So Angie clearly wants to find out if she’s a match because Marcus has kidney failure. And something I thought was absurd and also hilarious is Bette is like, “Sure, how do you want to help?” And she’s clearly thinking Angie’s going to run a bake sale at school or something.

Riese: Or send flowers, send an Edible Arrangement, get a Cookies By Design.

Analyssa: Yeah. She’s like, “We could get one of the poker games to donate the pot to his medical treatment.” And Angie’s like, “No.”

Riese: And then Tina’s like, “I think she wants to give a kidney.” And Bette’s like, “A kidney bean soup?” No, Bette’s like, “Absolutely not!! There’ll be no kidneys!!”

Analyssa: Immediately freaks out.

Drew: When Angie’s talking, Micah’s like, “You’re doing a great job.” And I would like to say that every time I have a difficult conversation with my family, if Leo could just be like, “You’re doing a great job,” I think that’d be really nice, so.

Riese: Right. Yeah. Michah’s very good at staying level despite the absolute insanity of this family.

Drew: The chaos, chaos. I was like, “Hey Micah, bet you wish you were working with trans kids now, huh?”

Riese: After this, he’s like, “No more cis women, please.” So Carrie starts to talk and she’s like, “I was adopted,” and Bette loses her mind over that. And she’s like, “Angie’s not adopted. She’s our daughter.” Even as though people who are adopted, whatever, aren’t their daughters? Technically also, Angie was adopted by Bette, but I don’t know. Obviously that wasn’t Carrie meant, which is what we discovered, because Angie quickly removes herself from the situation.

Drew: Yeah. Good for Angie.

Analyssa: And Tina follows her and then the world’s most chaotic combo of Bette, Carrie, and Micah are left in the therapy room.

Riese: Bette switches couches.

Analyssa: She has to get up and pace around, she’s doing a lot of blocking. Micah asks so innocently with the knowledge of someone who hasn’t watched six seasons of The L Word, what Bette’s relationship is to her family, and I cackled. I’ve never experienced a reaction like that. I thought it was absurd.

Riese: Yeah, because she’s so defensive. Carrie is like, “What I meant to say was I was happy to meet my biological mother,” or whatever, “and I would help her.” And then Bette’s like, “Well, not every family is the same,” or something. And then Micah wants the info. And I have to say that until this scene, I didn’t realize that Bette’s mom had left. I had thought she was dead.

Drew: Well, it’s nice that she’s not dead, I guess. A little bit of a different type of trauma thrown in, you know?

Analyssa: Is that like a reveal, do you think?

Riese: I went back and watched this morning, the scenes in which Bette discussed her mother with her father when he was dying. And I realized that they’re actually, they did not say that she died. They said that she left because he cheated on Kit’s mom with Bette’s mom, and then cheated on Bette’s mom with someone else, so Bette’s mom left and was never seen or heard from again, apparently, which is pretty brutal.

Drew: It’s incredibly brutal.

Analyssa: I guess I should be considering that more when I talk about Bette and what she does as a human.

Drew: Yeah, but Bette’s in her fifties. I’m sorry, but yeah, I’m all for being kind to people because of the things they’ve been through. But at a certain point, I mean, look, when Bette said, I don’t remember what this was in response to, but I wrote down this one quote. She says…

Bette: Same way you know you don’t like fucking scallops, Carrie. I tried it once and it wasn’t for me.

Drew: No one can deliver a line like her. It’s still… But this scene was, and I was like, “Oh, wow. I’m really turning on Bette. Bette’s been, this season, has been just really brutal. She’s falling apart.” It reminds me of season… There’s a season of the original series where Bette’s just kind of a nightmare. Is it the one where she’s dating Jodi? Probably, yeah. And I’m like, “It’s like season five.” Season five Bette, yeah, season five Bette is no good.

Riese: What’s funny, so my girlfriend is watching this season of Generation Q. She has no desire to watch season one of Generation Q or one episode of the original series.

Drew: Wow.

Riese: So therefore, all of her perspectives are based solely on this season of television.

Drew: Whoa.

Riese: And she’s like, “Bette is awful and mean. I don’t understand what the thing is with her. Why are people obsessed with her? What’s her deal?” And I’m like, “I guess you’re right.” Has Bette done anything this season that was not kind of, at best, inappropriate?

Drew: No, I don’t think so. She’s sort of having a rough year. Yeah. I don’t know. It’s pretty rough, but Tina’s very nice with Angie. And the only thing is, is that I looked it up and you can’t donate a kidney until you’re 18 anyway, unless you go to Canada. So what’s Angie’s plan here? To go to Canada? Is Marcus Allenwood, the actor, still in Vancouver and she can go to Vancouver because the character’s there are too? What’s the idea here?

Riese: He’s not an actor.

Drew: No, I know. But the original L Word was shot in Vancouver.

Riese: Yeah, but the actor who played him wasn’t an actor.

Drew: Oh.

Riese: He’s a house painter.

Drew: Oh, well, I mean he was an actor because he acted.

Riese: Yeah, this was his one acting role, because they couldn’t find the right guy, and then the AD was like, “This guy’s painting my house…”

Drew: What?

Riese: “And he seems like the…”

Drew: That’s wild.

Analyssa: What do you—?

Riese: “And he seems like he would be good,” and so they literally got their AD’s house painter to play this one role in The L Word, and that…

Drew: So, is he coming back to the new series?

Analyssa: Seriously.

Riese: I don’t know, because his name is Mark Gibson, which how the fuck are you going to find someone named Mark Gibson?

Drew: No, no.

Riese: There’s a million probably, I’m sure. So I don’t know, I’m like, “Are they going to find this guy?” Is he going to be like, “Really guys, again? I’m really just busy painting houses, get off my back.”

Drew: Wow. That’s so interesting.

Analyssa: But maybe he’s retired from painting houses now. That’s an arduous job.

Riese: Oh yeah, it is an arduous job.

Analyssa: Maybe he wants to make a one day guest star paycheck and be back.

Riese: Yeah, that’s true, that would be nice. Maybe they’re going to cast someone else as him.

Drew: Hm.

Analyssa: Imagine. The only other thing is that — besides Drew, your thing about Angie is definitely not old enough to donate a kidney — that wasn’t brought up in therapy was I wish that someone, not even necessarily Micah, but someone had said like, “Maybe it would be healing for Angie to just try.” And I don’t feel like anyone says that at all. It may not work out, but it might be helpful for Angie to follow this down the line. They just keep kind of being like, “But she wants to.” And it’s like, that’s not really… I don’t know, anyway. I just, I don’t know why it bothered me, but I just thought there’s a logical thing to say here, which is, “Yes.” But Angie had just found out something massive about where she comes from and then found out that she could lose him and she might want to try to help. And it might just feel good and not actually be a big deal.

Drew: Right. Yeah. I mean, I think they’re just wanting, I mean, Bette’s just wanting to shut it down because she’s just being anxious and controlling.

Analyssa: Shocking. Okay. So back at Dana’s, AKA Shane’s, AKA Tess’s, Finley is just doing everything she can to make sure Shane gets to spend time with Cherie Jaffe.

Riese: And Shane’s like, “Really, it’s okay.”

Drew: But also, why is Tess encouraging her to sit there, eat? I’m just, the whole thing…

Riese: I think Tess wants to know.

Drew: Oh.

Riese: Tess is like, “What is the deal with you guys? What is this? What’s the story here?”

Drew: Yeah. She’s like, “I’ve been dating this person for a whole week and I’m in love and this is devastating to me.”

Riese: I’ll tell you what though, Shane is Cherie’s root. So it’s kind of, I mean, this story was probably, if they were really dating, which I don’t really think they are, then this story was going to come up within a week or two. You know what I mean?

Drew: Yeah, for sure.

Riese: But she’s like, “How do you know each other?” And Cherie’s like, “She did my hair.” And I was like, “Oh God, really?” But luckily, thank God, Shane was like…

Shane: Come on. We had an affair. An intense, destructive affair. She was married. It did not end well, did it?
Cherie: She was a notorious, irresistible homewrecker.

Riese: One thing that did bother me a little bit about this is that they were kind of acting as though they had not seen each other since their affair ended badly, which is very much not true. Obviously we all remember the pool sex scene from season three. And then also she went to her beach mansion where there was that wild party with crazy extras playing terrible music and cocaine and she couldn’t find her keys and then she crashed a car. You know? Although I guess, probably Cherie doesn’t remember a goddamn minute of that.

Drew: Yeah. There were a lot of drugs.

Riese: But the pool sex, I believe we all remember. And they should also probably remember it. And should have added that to the story they told Tess, because what are you talking about here? You know?

Drew: Yeah. The whole dynamic was very weird.

Riese: Yeah. Because then she’s like, “Now I’m divorced and out,” which she already said. She told Shane that in season three when she came to the salon. Oh right, she’s not Cherie Jaffe anymore, she’s Cherie Peroni.

Analyssa: But now she says she’s aggressively gloriously out of the closet, which I was like, “Okay, great.”

Riese: I was mostly thinking about how she was one of the first people to speak out against Harvey Weinstein and then feels like he tanked her career.

Drew: Mm. Well, I’m glad she’s back on the show. I mean, I’m always happy to see Roseanne Arquette and it’s a joy to see Cherie.

Riese: It is.

Analyssa: All these scenes are really fun and dramatic.

Drew: Yeah.

Riese: Yes.

Analyssa: And there’s more to come because Shane invites Cherie to the poker game.

Riese: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Drew: And then Tess goes into the back room and is freaking out and then starts talking to Finley. And Finley’s freaking out about Sophie so Tess pivots to talk about those problems. And she tells Finley to find someone that knows her worth and to sort of move on. And look, as a Sinley shipper, I don’t agree with this. But if Finley was my friend, I probably would also give that same advice. I do generally think that when things start messy, they stay messy. Not always, but…

Riese: I thought it was bad advice.

Analyssa: I thought it was bad advice, but here’s why. It’s because Tess is thinking about Shane when she’s giving Finley this advice.

Drew: Yeah, that’s true. That’s fair. That’s fair.

Analyssa: So it has nothing to do with Finley’s situation absolutely at all. And that’s not even a knock against Tess. Finley should have minded her own business because if you walked into the back room and one of your coworkers was screaming “fuck” into an empty room, why on earth would you go, “Okay, so my thing actually…”

Drew: Right, right, right. Totally.

Riese: Right, because Tess wasn’t even listening because Finley was like, “She referred to me as her friend this morning and blah, blah, blah.” And then Tess is like, “Well, she said she just wants to be friends, so listen to her.” And that’s not what Finley said. Finley didn’t say that Sophie said she wanted to be friends, but whatever.

Drew: Right. None of that’s true.

Riese: Back to therapy.

Analyssa: Back to therapy, everyone’s favorite place.

Riese: This would be a great time to give Jordan Hull an Emmy, I think would be.

Drew: She’s great.

Analyssa: I agree. She was acting her butt off.

Drew: Yeah, she’s so good.

Analyssa: She wants a connection to people who look more like her, she says. Angie talks about not looking the same as her mom. And I got really choked up when she said that she did look the same as Kit, or looked more similar to Kit, and doesn’t have Kit anymore. And I feel like they’re making great progress in this therapy session. They’re really getting to the root of why Angie, again, why this might be soothing and healing for Angie or something she wants to do.

Riese: Yeah. I felt like it was also great progress for the show to acknowledge a lot of these things, you know? And also Bette’s response was so Bette. She’s like, “Just because other people might mistake me for white doesn’t mean I don’t know who I am inside.” And Angie’s like, “Right, but the fact that other people mistake you for white and people, when they look at me or they look at Kayla or they look at Kit or they look at Marcus, they’re not going to mistake us for white. It’s a very different way of moving through the world.” And I thought it was really great that they actually addressed that and drew attention to it because I feel like they kind of have shied away from that in the past since season one when there was the girl in the support group that kind of challenged Bette about that as well.

Drew: Yeah. And the way that was framed was that Bette was right. That was how that was framed, so.

Riese: Yeah, and she was wrong.

Drew: Yeah, right, totally. I still just cut — every time they bring up the Kit though. I just, I’m still so not over it.

Riese: Yeah. But it was also great to hear that Angie has found that connection with Kayla, and that it’s been really good for her. So regardless of what happens, it seems like at least they should be able to stay friends, you know?

Drew: Yeah.

Analyssa: The other big update is that while I was crying, so were Bette and Tina and Carrie. And Bette holds Tina’s hand and Carrie sees and makes a face. And then in the parking lot afterwards, Carrie and Tina get into a fight about it. And I think Carrie’s right, I don’t know.

Riese: Yeah. She’s like, “I could be number two to Angie, but I’m not going to be number three to Angie and Bette.”

Carrie: Am I always going to be third?
Tina: I have to put Angie first.
Carrie: I know that. You know I know that. I love Angie and I’m fine with second, but third? Is this the way it’s always going to be? Because Tina, I don’t know if you realize it, but you’re always my number one.

Riese: She just doesn’t like Bette, you know? And I can relate to that because my girlfriend doesn’t like Bette either.

Drew: Yeah. I do think that this wasn’t really the time that Carrie needed to be going in on Bette, but I do think that — I agree with Carrie in the sense that what her ultimate point is, but the fact that Tina gets mad at her for being insulting towards Bette in this moment… It’s just like, the thing is, is that part of making Angie number one is reducing tension with Bette. And so I do think that given the seriousness of the conversation that was just happening… is now the time to be like, “Oh, well, your ex-wife’s a real piece of work.” Is that really the time? Could you just have taken a deep breath and called your… Just sometimes I’m like, people need to… I feel this way in my life too, where I’m like, sometimes you just need to call other people. So can Carrie call — who’s Carrie’s best friend? Can Carrie call her best friend and be like, “Oh.”

Riese: Madonna.

Drew: “Tina’s ex-wife is such a nightmare.” It’s like, you don’t say it to the person. I don’t know. It’s like if later it needs to be a longer discussion with your soon-to-be wife about her ex and about the dynamic, have that discussion when tensions aren’t as high. But I don’t think that this was really setting them up for success to be having this conversation right now.

Analyssa: I don’t either, but I don’t think it’s fair that Carrie has to just mediate tension and Bette gets to say whatever she wants. She was mean.

Riese: Yeah, Bette was an asshole.

Drew: No, I know.

Riese: We’re so used to seeing Bette be mean, but if we think about if this is real life, which of course we can’t really think about, when she was like, “Your opinion doesn’t matter.” She was so fucking mean.

Drew: No, she was awful, but Carrie’s not… I just think that it’s not a matter of whether Carrie’s right or Bette’s right. It’s about sometimes even when you’re right, it’s not the time to create a thing. And so it’s like, why do you need to take a Lyft? Just get in the car and people throw little tantrums and I’m just like, “Even when you’re right, don’t throw a tantrum. You’re an adult person. Take a deep breath and deal with the problem later.” I don’t know. That’s my stance.

Analyssa: I’m pro-tantrum.

Riese: I’m also pro-tantrum because I think sometimes things are really upsetting and it’s hard to just wait for a better time.

Drew: I guess.

Riese: And also, I do think Tina should have defended Carrie to Bette and should have stood up for her and not just let Bette walk all over her. And I know that I don’t like Tina, but…

Drew: Yeah. Again, I also think that’s true. I just, I don’t know. I don’t really, I don’t disagree. I just, I do think it’s true that she’s marrying into this family and part of that is having to figure out the dynamics and especially when they’re not around Bette all the time. But I don’t know.

Analyssa: The Bette apologist has logged on.

Drew: I’m not doing that, but I’m not apologizing for Bette. I’m absolutely, it’s more about the fact that I don’t think Angie should have to be the only one in this family unit who’s dealing with everyone’s emotions and managing everyone’s emotions. And so a way that Carrie could help is by not creating conflict and understanding that the reason why Tina’s trying to be a good mom to Angie and that’s taking away from her energy and focus on defending Carrie to Bette. She’s defending Angie from Bette. That’s where her focus is and that’s where it should be. And I think Bette’s obviously in the wrong in all of this and is being horrible, but sometimes your fiance’s ex-wife is horrible and you need to pick your battles and pick when you confront that and talk about that.

Riese: Justice for Carrie.

Analyssa: Same. We’re going to work justice for some character into every single one. Drew, I think that’s logical. I just think

Riese: They’ll all be victims of Bette.

Analyssa: They’re literally every single one has been a Bette victim.

Drew: Totally.

Analyssa: We’ve done justice for Gigi, Jodi, and Carrie. Also something we haven’t talked about enough I think, are all of the names on this season that end in I.

Riese: Oh yeah. That is a little bit inappropriate.

Analyssa: There’s a lot of them, I feel like.

Riese: Yeah, it’s—

Analyssa: Gigi, Finley, Sophie, Dani.

Drew: Yeah, sometimes that happens though. I don’t know. All three people I hooked up with in Cincinnati whose names started with B-R, so sometimes name shit is weird. So you never know. Okay. So Sophie’s interviewing some lesbians, some real lesbians. Actually, are they real? Do we know this? Are these two, are they actors, in the sense that — obviously they’re real in the world of the show, but did they find two older lesbians to…

Riese: Tell their true story?

Drew: Tell their real story?

Riese: I feel like they probably did. I’d be surprised—

Drew: You’re probably right.

Riese: I could have looked this up and didn’t, but I do feel like they probably are real.

Drew: Yeah. It’s very corny, but I will allow it.

Analyssa: It’s a little When Harry Met Sally interview, which is sweet. Hilariously, these two women are talking about falling in love during a time when you couldn’t be out and also when their race played a really big role, and the jobs that they could get, and how they lost jobs because they were together and people were talking about it. And Alice and Sophie are just sitting there thinking about Nat and Finley.

Riese: They’re thinking about their white friends. Their girlfriends.

Analyssa: Yeah. They’re like, “Oh my God, this is just like me and my girlfriend who broke up because she wanted to be polyamorous in Los Angeles in 2021.” Like, no. And Sophie’s sitting there like, “Oh my God, love prevails. Maybe Finley and I should try.” It’s unhinged. I mean, good for them but I just was watching their faces being like, “You guys, be more respectful please.”

Drew: I know. So funny.

Riese: Speaking of two people falling in love under challenging circumstances, we go to Dani’s new penthouse apartment where she and Gigi are chatting it up like two people who should have sex and get married.

Analyssa: They should smash faces soon.

Riese: Yeah.

Analyssa: Also, not to be extremely thirsty, but Dani has really good hands. She’s sitting and her hands are on her legs and I was just like, good for you.

Drew: Yeah.

Analyssa: It looks great.

Drew: It’s just like a really good white wine and trauma sesh, you know?

Analyssa: Yeah. They’re just talking, they seem to understand each other. Gigi’s like, “God, aren’t you exhausted doing PR spin all the time?” And Dani’s like, “Yeah. Except when I don’t, I’m evil and I hurt people.” It’s like they’re really getting into who they are as people.

Riese: Yeah. They seem to really understand each other implicitly.

Drew: Yeah. They talk about — Dani says that she always knew Sophie wasn’t right for her on some level. And Gigi’s like, “I used to love like that. But now I’m more interested in learning” from who she’s with. And it’s not really clear. I feel like what I’m getting at is that Gigi is saying basically that she looks for people that are good on paper more than people who make her feel a spark?

Analyssa: I feel like she’s kind of saying “Yes, sort of.” But I don’t think that’s how she would say it. I think she’s, what she means is, “I’ve had that ‘intense, head over heels, give my whole self to it even when I knew parts of it weren’t right’ thing. And now, it’s more important to me to have something that I understand and they understand me and we grow and work together than it is to be like, ‘Oh my God, I have to be devolving into this relationship'” is kind of what it sounded like.

Drew: Yeah. But then Gigi says that she gets bored and moves on and so it does not really… so I think that the vibe that… what’s important is the vibe is like, “Yeah, but the thing I’m doing, isn’t that great. And maybe you are what I should be doing. And by what I should be doing, I mean, who I should be doing.”

Riese: Yeah. Hot.

Drew: And then Dani’s like, “You’re so easy to talk to.” And also is wearing this sort of just wearing a flannel. It’s very adorable. I’m really just watching these two and just like, “Kiss, kiss, kiss, kiss, kiss.”

Riese: Yeah. Speaking of two people who don’t know where they stand with each other and are talking about other things, but are they really talking about themselves? We go to Dana’s Memorial Tavern where Shane and Tess are having an awkward conversation because Tess gave Finley advice and now Finley met someone who she apparently immediately knew deserved her and would like to skip her shift.

Finley: Check them out. I’m moving on.
Tess: Good. I’m happy for you.
Finley: Right? So you mind if I skip out on my shift? I just want to see where this goes.
Finley’s hook-up: Finley, come on.
Shane: Get the hell out of here. Go.
Finley: Oh, you’re the best. Thank you.

Riese: This is so gay. But also this is bananas. And also at a bar you can’t just go home, you need somebody there.

Analyssa: And there’s only three people who work at this bar, famously. And two of them have potential to hook up with Cherie Jaffe tonight. So, the numbers are low.

Riese: And they spend half their shift in the back room talking to themselves.

Analyssa: It’s a wonder that anything happens here.

Drew: Dana’s is this Italian restaurant in the Lower East Side that I used to go to called Gaia. I think that was like—

Riese: It was called Gay?

Drew: Gaia? But I guess it was basically just Gay. And it had the best paninis ever, but they just opened. It was just this old Italian woman who just opened when she wanted to be open. And so you would go there and usually they wouldn’t be open. And that’s how I feel Dana’s probably is. Like you never know when it’s going to be open.

Riese: Right. But chances are good it’s not.

Analyssa: Or you might get turned away at the door for a private event. Never know.

Drew: Right?

Riese: But Shane’s basically like, “Did you give Finley advice?” And then Tess is like, “This is the advice I gave Finley.” And so they’re fighting about it, but they’re actually fighting about their own relationship, I believe.

Drew: Yeah, I think that might be.

Analyssa: I would agree.

Drew: That’s pretty intuitive there, Riese.

Riese: And why not just, I don’t know—

Drew: Kiss.

Riese: Have a threesome?

Drew: That seems like the obvious, obvious choice.

Riese: Right. Like just do it, you know?

Drew: Though, here’s the thing, I don’t think that Shane should have sex with Cherie Jaffe. I think that will bring up a lot of stuff. I don’t think she should start off her relationship with Tess with a threesome with this person who traumatized her. That feels like, I think it’d be better to be like, “Tess, have your relationship with Cherie. Let that be. Let that happen. It won’t last. I don’t see it lasting. And then when you’re done, we can be in love.” And that seems like the long game move, as opposed to the immediate satisfaction of a threesome.

Riese: I’m just curious where this fits in to your desire to have things be messy and exciting on the TV show?

Drew: Oh no. Obviously I want them to have a threesome on the TV show. I’m talking about the difference between — no, no, no. When I’m talking about what the characters should do, I hope they don’t do what I’m giving them advice to do, you know?

Riese: Yeah.

Drew: No, obviously Tess, Shane, and Cherie should have a threesome if I’m talking to the writers. If I’m talking to the real human being Shane McCutcheon, I would say, “Friend. Don’t do this.” You know? Important distinction. Micah’s tired. Micah is very tired after that whirlwind of a therapy session. I mean, did he have other clients today? Who can say?

Riese: I sure hope not. I would have had to clear my schedule for just—

Analyssa: I feel like you have to clear a couple days after. You’re just like, “You know what? I’m just sitting in my office quietly thinking about that.”

Riese: Yeah.

Drew: Yeah. So he texts Maribel.

Analyssa: He does say mild emergency, which is insane.

Drew: An insane thing to text. Terrible.

Analyssa: First of all, there’s not really any such thing as a mild emergency. The definition of emergent means it’s an emergency or it’s not, but fine. Whatever.

Riese: It just reminds me of my ex who would be like, “mild emergency” and I knew for sure it was like that she burned a loaf of bread or something. You know?

Analyssa: I had to have a very serious conversation with my mother who would text, “call me ASAP.” All caps. All caps “ASAP.”

Riese: My mom does that too.

Analyssa: And I would call her and she’d be like, “Hi, I haven’t talked to you in a while.” And I’d be like—

Riese: Exactly. Yeah.

Analyssa: That’s literally not what ASAP means. She was like, “I just mean when you can next.”

Riese: Right. She’d be like, “Please give me a call when you have a chance.” Period. And I was like, “Okay, who’s sick?”

Analyssa: Okay, someone is ill. Yeah. I need to start thinking about flying home every time I get one of those texts. And then it’s my mom being like, “What’d you eat for lunch today?” Just text me. Anyway.

Riese: Speaking of people who are in rooms that have tables and chairs in them, Alice is at home and I guess she was going to have Nat over for dinner? And then Nat calls and cancels the dinner? And then Alice breaks a vase and then she starts crying.

Drew: Yeah.

Riese: And asks Tom to come over.

Drew: Yeah because Tom sends a nice little text. And so she cries. That is what happens in that scene. I don’t feel there’s that much to discuss.

Analyssa: Except that it’s proof of what I said, which is that Alice watched those two lesbians talk about their life story and was like, “I must hang out with my ex, Nat.”

Riese: Yeah and make it work and then she couldn’t. Also, I thought the colors of Alice’s outfit with the colors in her apartment, it was exciting visually. It was a lot of color, which I enjoy.

Drew: Speaking of people who cancel plans, we go back to Micah’s and discover that Maribel canceled a date to be there. And she’s looking very hot. And that is because she was date ready. And maybe this could turn into a date.

Riese: Yeah. And he starts talking. He feels really bad that she skipped a date to be with him right now because it wasn’t… as aforementioned, there’s no such thing as a mild emergency. What he meant to say was, “I spent the day with Bette Porter.” And then he just keeps talking and keeps talking and then Maribel just comes right up to him and they kiss.

Analyssa: And they smooched. They did it.

Riese: And I was like, “Woooooo!” And then he picks her up and takes her upstairs.

Drew: Yeah. It’s a cute… he’s like giving this little very rom com little speech of like “I just needed you here to talk to you about nothing and eat spicy food.” And then kiss. Yeah, it’s a good little moment.

Riese: Yeah. So again, you’re welcome, world.

Drew: Yeah.

Analyssa: Next season on The L Word, the giraffes and whatever that Riese suggested in this very episode.

Riese: Speaking of people coming over under certain situations… guises of… and people who are upset and other people are coming over to the home of the upset person, Tom comes over to clean up her little mess and says that she should make a mosaic out of the glass. And she is upset and then he sees the lobsters and he screams.

Alice: There are lobsters.
Tom: I know what they are, but what are they doing in your sink?
Alice: Because I was going to surprise Nat with a fancy dinner!
Tom: Oh.
Alice: She called and canceled on me. She was leaving Brenda’s house. Who’s Brenda, by the way? Oh my God. It really is over. Anyway, I called you because I thought maybe you and I could eat them.
Tom: Alice, I’m deathly allergic to shellfish. There’s no way I’m going to eat these.
Alice: Come on.
Tom: There’s no way. I’m sorry. Especially after all they’ve been through today with you, I feel like they’re emotional support animals. I feel weird eating them.
Alice: Well, if we’re not going to eat them, what are we going to do with them?

Riese: I wanted him to be like, “You know what I learned about lobsters? That when male lobsters are in a styrofoam bucket in Alice’s sink…” You know? But no, they didn’t go there.

Drew: I could go for a lobster roll right now. I feel like I have a lobster roll once every two years. Because they’re just a little too expensive, but they’re very delicious. But they’re very small.

Analyssa: I was at a wedding in Maine two weekends ago and ate so much lobster, it was a little—

Riese: Wow. I was going to say I had a lobster roll in Maine in 2008. But I think that was the most recent.

Drew: I don’t have enough lobster. Lobster’s delicious. Maybe I will.

Analyssa: Yeah, I wish. I was like, “Maybe I should move to Portland, Maine so I can just eat seafood all day.” There’s also a lot of lesbians in Portland, Maine.

Drew: I have heard that.

Analyssa: I don’t know why, but it’s like a spot for us as lesbians.

Riese: For us as lesbians?

Analyssa: Portland, Maine.

Riese: Oh yeah.

Drew: Okay. This is my least favorite scene in this episode.

Analyssa: I knew last week when we recorded the other one, Riese and I knew that you were not going to like this scene because of what you said in the 204 episode, but we’d already seen 205.

Riese: Yeah, did I give you a look when she was talking about it?

Analyssa: Yeah, we both were like, “Well…”

Drew: Yeah. But then when there was that really cute scene on FaceTime earlier, I was like, “Oh, maybe they were giving each other a look because they were like, ‘Drew is going to be so happy next episode’ because they make up for it.” But nope, it’s just inconsistent. Basically Jordi’s talking about being nominated for prom queen and Angie, I just…ugh. It doesn’t check out with their relationship and I mean, I know Jordi is a teenage girl and all that, but even earlier in this episode she’s being supportive and nice. And I just don’t get her being this selfish and this fixated on her phone. The only justification is that she gets really excited because her English teacher likes her posts. And if any of my English teachers ever liked my post, I would also have that reaction, so it’s the only justification I can think of. But I still just… it just feels out of character and feels unnecessary because so easily — I said this last episode — Jordi could just not get it because these are very adult, very serious things that Angie’s going through, so it could easily just be a thing where Jordi just doesn’t quite get it.

Riese: Or know what to say.

Drew: And maybe Angie also, given Angie’s character, it would make sense to be sort of like, “Let’s not talk…” to push Jordi to talk about prom when obviously there’s stuff going on for Angie. But Angie doesn’t want to talk about it. There’s all these other ways that this could’ve gone that would have just made more sense with Jordi’s character. But oh, well.

Analyssa: I did have one read on it, which I guess maybe is a little bit too charitable. That’s always my mantle, my cross to bear.

Drew: Please. Give it to me.

Analyssa: Which is, again, they’re teenagers, but I still do this as an adult sometimes. Where a friend is going through something and Angie has gone to therapy and is clearly feeling about it and Jordi is like, “Okay, but let’s talk about fun stuff,” which does sound kind of callous when you watch it. But I can see a version where you are “the fun friend.” And I know that, Drew you’re right, that they have a lot built up where Angie’s not going to Jordi just for fun. But I can see this attack of like, “What if we just talked about something silly and goofy and got your mind off of it?” Was she that explicit about it? No, but there is a world where that is kind of the thing. But in combo with last episode, Angie being like, “Jordi can’t understand because she’s running for prom court.” It’s not ideal.

Riese: I have a read on the episode, which is that Jordi wants both of Angie’s kidneys for herself.

Drew: Oh no.

Riese: For a spell.

Analyssa: To win prom court, do you think?

Riese: Exactly. Thank you. Exactly. Yeah.

Drew: That sounds like a Buffy plot.

Riese: Teenagers.

Analyssa: That would be an exciting plot line for Jordi. I would love for that to happen actually.

Drew: Can you imagine if all of a sudden there just was like… Jordi’s a witch and…

Riese: Black market, Oregon.

Analyssa: “She started trying to take some of my organs, we’re kind of on the outs. We’ll get back to it.”

Drew: Kind of like the vampire episode. Ugh, what a great episode.

Analyssa: Okay. So, Tom and Alice are on the beach at the lobster release party. LA’s hottest event. I don’t know what he says exactly, but basically Tom is just like, “I wish that I could help you with this, but unfortunately I’m a monogamous man.”

Riese: Oh yeah, he was like, “I’m not a lesbian and I’ve never been in a poly relationship. So I wish that I could give you better advice.” That I have better, whatever. And the whole time I was thinking, “This is so funny.” Because Tina and Henry’s, one of their first dates that we saw was they’re both sitting on the beach and the ocean waves were lapping and they were talking about their feelings, you know? And I was like, “Are they trying to soft launch men into The L Word?” Like a man having a relationship with a bisexual character, but doing it on the beach so we’re all soothed by the ocean waves or whatever?

Analyssa: Yeah. It is soft lighting, everything is very gentle, there’s some ASMR in the background.

Riese: “This is going to be fine guys.”

Analyssa: Yeah.

Drew: I like Tom. And this is really cute and I’m all for it. I will say that I think — obviously plenty of bisexual women who are very involved in lesbian community date all sorts of cis men. But I do think that something that is pretty common is dating bisexual men, dating men who have queerness in their life who are surrounded by other queer people. And I think The L Word likes to find this tension of the straightest guy in town and our queer woman. And it’s like, yeah, okay. That happens, and that’s fine. But it would be nice to like… I mean look, it creates conflict because there’s contrast. And I get that, but I also would love to see some more examples of bisexual male representation other than Angus maybe being bi. I mean, I’ve decided that’s canon, but I don’t know if it really is.

Riese: Angus is bi.

Drew: It’s sort of played as a joke in the original, but I decided I’d take it as canon, but I don’t know. You know what I’m saying though? That just, again I don’t have any issue with this storyline specifically. I just, I think it’s interesting that the instinct is always to be like, “Ah, cis men are so different.” And it’s like, “Sort of. Sometimes.” Sometimes they’re also like, oh—

Riese: Not that different.

Drew: Yeah, the reason why this cis man is drawn to this very famous queer woman is because a bunch of his friends are lesbians or because his sister’s trans. I don’t know, you know what I mean? I just find that when cis men are around the community, I don’t think it’s as often where it’s like, “And wow! Queerness is this whole brand new thing to them.” Because I don’t know it just hasn’t been my personal experience of my friends and stuff.

Analyssa: The L Word posits that you, if you are a woman in a mostly lesbian and queer community who wants to date a cis man, you will only meet him at work. So that is part of the problem.

Drew: Right. Or through your kids.

Analyssa: Oh I guess it was through your kids. Yeah. I was thinking of who’s that movie producer that she—?

Drew: Oh yeah.

Riese: Josh.

Drew: Josh.

Riese: Josh, Josh Becker. Josh Becker.

Analyssa: Right?

Drew: Who gets her the movie poster for Catch 22?

Riese: Yeah, their favorite movie.

Drew: Which, I’m still so hung up on that Tina Kennard’s favorite movie is the Mike Nichols adaptation of Catch 22. I think about it. Sometimes I just wake up in the middle of the night and I think, “Tina Kennard’s favorite movie of all time is Catch 22, the 1970 film adaptation.”

Riese: Yeah. I do like though that he is a softy, he’s not like a Tim, you know what I mean?

Drew: Yeah, I like Tom a lot.

Riese: He’s a books guy, you know?

Drew: Yeah I love a books guy.

Analyssa: And he’s goofy.

Riese: Yeah. He’s goofy. I wish… I remember they had him and Finley just get along immediately. And I think having more of that would be cute. Because I think it would be cool if he turned, at least if he fit into the group in a way. That it was like those guys that have the lesbian friends, you know?

Drew: Yeah. And that could still happen. I mean this could be Tom’s entry point and then everyone can be like, “You’re nice. You’re cool. Hang out with us.” I’d love that.

Riese: Yeah.

Analyssa: The one other thing in this scene is that Alice is like, “I don’t know where it all went wrong.” And Tom says the nice, sort of friend, but sort of flirty thing of like, “Nat’s crazy for not trying to work it out.” And not to be the one Nat defender of The L Word: Gen Q, Nat did try to work it out a little bit, in Nat’s defense. Anyway, these two dodos put the lobsters in the ocean, but they didn’t clip the little rubber bands on their claws.

Alice: Did you take the rubber band thingies off their um…?
Tom: No. Did you? They’re going to die. They’re going to die.
Alice: Oh my God, we have to save them!
Tom: They’re going to die!
Alice: Okay, are they going to be in this area?
Tom: It’s too cold! Can you imagine having your life dependent on the strength of some piece of rubber?
Alice: Isn’t that like the whole idea with condoms?
Tom: Oh yeah, I guess so.

Analyssa: Already these lobsters were doomed, because they were not living in the ocean, whatever. You can’t release… whatever.

Drew: Yeah.

Riese: Justice for lobsters.

Analyssa: Already they were doomed, but now they’re extra doomed.

Riese: Yeah.

Drew: At this point in my notes, I was like, okay, there’s only 10 minutes left, we better do a sex scene montage. We better do a sex scene montage. But we’re not there yet. But that was what I was thinking about in my notes. But …

Riese: Dani’s apartment.

Analyssa: Yeah, we kind of get the precursor to a sex scene montage with these two, which is like, they’re still at Dani’s apartment, they’re still hitting it off. Dani is like…

Dani: Are you hitting on me?
Gigi: No, I mean, I don’t think so.
Dani: Okay, but you’re not sure.
Gigi: I like your energy.
Dani: I don’t know what that means.
Gigi: Sure you do. It’s what you’re feeling right now.

Analyssa: My notes say, “Gigi says, ‘Not yet baby.’” Which is kind of the tone.

Riese: Right. I don’t understand that because I was like, you are, aren’t you?

Analyssa: Aren’t you?

Riese: Like, how are you not? Your body language is flirting.

Drew: Gigi’s a fucking nightmare and I love it. But the fact that Dani was very direct and being like, “Are you hitting on me?” And she was like, “No, I don’t think so.” Her exact words were, “No, I don’t think so.” And it’s like…

Analyssa: Okay, so what are we doing?

Drew: Yeah, you are obviously hitting on her. Like you might not be hitting on her with intention, but like come on, Gigi.

Riese: Although to be fair, I remember when Gigi was first introduced, we were like, “Is she hitting on Alice?” Like has Gigi talked to anyone where we didn’t feel like she was?

Drew: Yeah, that’s true. That’s a good point.

Riese: I think she might just be one of those people, but also this very specifically is …

Analyssa: Right. She has that energy generally, but now they’ve gone on dinner dates. She’s helped Dani unpack her apartment. She’s sat on Dani’s—

Riese: Picked her up from jail.

Analyssa: Picked her up from jail, think you, circled the parking lot for an hour to pick her up from jail. She sat on Dani’s countertop in a way that I think of as very familiar at least if not flirty. So like, what are we doing if not?

Drew: Okay, but what I did like is that, so Gigi says, “I like your energy.” And Dani says, “I don’t know what that means.” So Dani’s really doing a good job at being like… not just asking for clarification one time, but continuing to be like, “No, I want to have an actual conversation about what this dynamic is.” And I’m just like Dani… I predicted this at the start of the season, but Dani without the Sophie relationship, I like. I like Dani. Like I did not like Dani all last season and I’ve liked Dani most of the season. It’s really exciting stuff for me and Dani and our relationship.

Analyssa: This is also a funny thing that I’ve experienced in real life too, where Gigi thinks of herself as talking about feelings and knowing how to talk and communicate. And then as soon as someone else presses her to do it, she’s sort of like, “What do you mean?” She’s used to being in… I guess Nat is maybe an exception to this, but it seems like she’s used to being around people like Bette, where she’s like, “Don’t you have something you want to talk about? Maybe we should talk about it.” And then as soon as someone else is like, “Hey, Gigi, that thing you said was kind of confusing.” She’s like, “What do you mean? I have no idea.”

Drew: Oh, I wrote in my notes, “Obsessed with these queers pretending to do direct communication.”

Riese: Right, exactly.

Drew: Gigi rejects Bette — Bette asks to hang and she says, “No, I can’t.” Which I would like to know that the only reason why Bette texted Gigi is because of the therapy session and Bette wants an emotional support fuck. And good for Gigi… I mean, Gigi doesn’t know that specifically, but good for Gigi for not seeing her because that’s so shitty. God, that’s a real… but yes.

Riese: Speaking of May/December relationships, we then transition back to Dana’s Memorial Tavern where Cherie’s kind of hitting on Shane, like they’re being… I think the thing is with Cherie and Shane is that Cherie was the first person to really break Shane’s heart and to really also get into her heart. So I don’t think that Shane has… I think she would have more self control around Carmen or Molly than she would around Cherie. I feel like they have this sort of weird power imbalance in their relationship and Shane is just not very good at resisting, not falling into the same dynamic they’ve always had. Like it’s very difficult for her to have a different dynamic with Cherie, even though it seems like she was trying really hard earlier. But it seems like she’s trying a little bit less hard now? I can’t tell.

Analyssa: It does seem like she’s still trying to resist, but also it’s very clear from the way Cherie talks to her and to Tess, I think, that the game is afoot. The way that it felt was even if I don’t think this is true, or whatever, Cherie and Tess both are like, “Well, they’re going to bone.” So Tess gets kind of mad, tries to leave, extract herself from the situation. And she goes back to the back room and Cherie follows her and then they have sex in the back room.

Drew: Yeah. And then we cut to Micah and Maribel, and I really enjoy that she’s sort of making fun of him and it felt like their verbal dynamic continued sexually.

Riese: Yeah. Orally.

Drew: Yes, exactly, orally. I don’t like that this was tacked onto the Cherie… it felt a little bit like a weird… because it wasn’t a full sex scene montage. The only people having sex are these two couples. And so I sort of wished that it had just been two separate sex scenes and that the Micah and Maribel scene had happened earlier, like when we were there with them. I don’t know if that hit anyone else weird? It just was like…

Riese: Beggars can’t be choosers.

Drew: No. I maybe wanted it to be longer.

Riese: Yeah. I thought Tess should have stood her ground with Cherie, so I was a little bit thrown off by that. Although then I did like… because I can’t remember specifically, I remember really liking Tess’ bra, skirt situation, whatever it was. And we wouldn’t have gotten to see that otherwise. And I was also like, wow, Cherie is a top now I guess.

Analyssa: That’s what being aggressively and gloriously out will do for you.

Riese: Yeah, exactly. That’s the spirit. But yeah, no, I mean, I see what you mean. But I thought it was just so nice.

Drew: No, it was really nice.

Riese: I hate myself.

Drew: No, it’s good. It’s good. It’s nice for things to be nice. I just… the sex scenes are so intricate and well choreographed. And I wanted just a little bit more time with this one. I did like that it wasn’t made into a whole thing, both from transness or disability, that it wasn’t made into like a whole point of drama. It was just cute and sweet. But also could have a little bit more length to it. I mean look, some sexual experiences don’t last as long as you want them to. And that’s just how it is though. So maybe we’ll get more sex scenes. Maybe these two are going to keep dating and then we’ll get another sex scene. That’s my hope.

Riese: Maybe the next episode will just be them having sex.

Analyssa: Bottle up.

Drew: Love a high concept episode of television.

Analyssa: So back at Bette’s, Bette apologizes, is what my notes say. Does she apologize to Angie or Tina? I don’t remember.

Riese: Her and Tina are there together. Her and Tina are there together so I’m sure Bette is dying of excitement that she’s with her little… she’s with Tina, tiny Tina, her little love Tina.

Analyssa: And they’ve made the decision together that Angie can meet Marcus, which is not exactly what Angie asked for, but okay. Baby steps. We’re taking our wins as we can get them.

Riese: Yeah. And meanwhile, Marcus is like, “I really kind of need the kidney, like pretty soon.”

Analyssa: Yeah, Marcus is like, “It’s really nice to meet you, but what’s the deal with the blood situation?” It’s a lot of tests that you have to go through. My mom gave her kidney to my ex-stepdad when I was in the fifth grade. It’s a lot of stuff. And again, crucially, they wouldn’t do it to a 16-year-old, but that’s okay. Sophie returns home with sushi as a peacemaking offer, grand gesture, somewhere on that spectrum. And everyone in this house is fucking. Finley’s having sex in her room, which is what Sophie hears and sees. No good. But also Micah’s having sex with Sophie’s sister in the same house. Everyone is boning next door to each other and Sophie’s by herself. Like this is just…

Riese: I don’t remember the scene very well, but does she see Maribel’s chair in the living room?

Analyssa: Oh.

Drew: I don’t think they make a thing of that.

Riese: They don’t? So she doesn’t know that she’s listening to her sister? That sucks.

Drew: No.

Analyssa: I do remember… oh, she’s going to know… she’s going to see Mari’s shoes or her chair, or her bag. I thought that that was going to be a point of drama and it’s not yet. But maybe the next episode will open with Sophie waking up the next day and everyone’s just in the kitchen, and she’s like, “What the fuck?”

Riese: And she’s like, “This is … Okay, so what? Last night I was listening to my sister have sex. And also the girl that I like have sex and all of the sushi was just there.” And she looked so excited that she brought home the sushi. But also I was expecting her to see the Finley thing and then also lose it in the same way that Finley lost it thinking about her and Dani. But it seems like she’s just sort of like, “Okay. Right. Of course.”

Drew: I mean, Finley should really close her door, but also Sophie should text ahead of time.

Riese: Exactly, yeah. Sophie should have been like, “Hey, are you going to be home tonight?”

Drew: Yeah, especially if you’re going to buy sushi. But I guess worst case scenario, you just eat more sushi and that’s never a bad thing. And so we end the episode with Cherie coming back to Dana’s after dropping off Tess, to see Shane. Messy, messy, messy person, Cherie Jaffe, now known as Cherie—

Riese: Peroni, I think. I can’t remember exactly.

Drew: Peroni.

Analyssa: The heiress to the Peroni beer fortune?

Drew: Wow.

Riese: I can’t remember what her last… I just remember that it was different. Like when she signed up for her haircut at Wax. But yeah, she’s like, “Are you going to let me in?” Or whatever. And Shane’s like, “Do you think that’s a good idea?” And she’s like, “Don’t make me beg.” And I’m like, oh fuck. Because then Shane has sex with Cherie, which… is that what’s going to happen? I guess Cherie is going to… she’s going to have a big day. Then Shane and Tess are never going to have sex, right?

Drew: Well, I don’t…

Analyssa: What’s Cherie’s game here?

Drew: Yeah, I don’t know. I have no idea, but it’s chaotic and I love it.

Riese: I don’t know what her game is. Tess gave her an out.

Drew: Yeah. I don’t know.

Riese: If she really wanted Shane, she could have not gone down on Tess in the back office.

Drew: Yeah. Well, that’s the episode.

Analyssa: That’s the episode.

Drew: How do we feel?

Riese: I actually… I don’t know if I sounded enthusiastic during this recap, but I thought when I was watching this episode, I was like, yeah, they’re playing with fire now.

Drew: Yeah, I enjoyed this one a lot.

Riese: Where I’m like, they’re really getting a lot of things going that are a little bit chaotic and fun and I just really enjoy… I’m really enjoying this season, I think.

Drew: Yeah. I liked this episode.

Analyssa: Yeah. I felt like… I don’t remember if we talked about it last week because Riese and I had seen 204 and 205 together, and Drew, you hadn’t, but they went together in a cool way. And yeah, Riese, like you said, I felt like it was like, okay, it’s time to do some stuff with the things we set up.

Riese: Yeah. It feels like a lot of things are on the brink of happening or not. And I can’t remember any point of last season where I felt that way. Like everything is getting really messy and complicated and interesting. And I mean, bringing back Cherie is a move.

Drew: Yeah, it’s really fun.

Riese: But I liked it. And, I mean, I think that the stuff with Angie and her family was really interesting and good. It was good to see Micah at work, trying… and yeah. I mean obviously, as you know, I really wish Sinley was happening, but I’m waiting.

Drew: All in good time. How many episodes is this season?

Riese: 10. So we’re halfway. This is halfway.

Drew: We’re halfway. I think the season’s going to end with Sinley.

Analyssa: I think so too.

Riese: Was it … who has said that their prediction was that the season’s going to end with Bette Finley-ing Carrie and Tina’s wedding?

Analyssa: I don’t… was that either of us?

Riese: Maybe.

Drew: I hope not.

Analyssa: That is wild.

Drew: Oh lord. I hope not.

Riese: And then Bette would still be like, “I’ve never done anything bad in my entire life.”

Analyssa: “I’ve never done anything selfish, ever.”

Drew: I’m so sorry, Bettina shippers, but I want so badly for us to just move on.

Analyssa: I, for one, am looking forward to 206. Not to move us on so fast, but the karaoke stills are important to me.

Riese: Oh right, that’s true. The karaoke stills. I’ve seen a lot of the pictures. And as we discussed in our little chat in our group text, Gigi has made a fashion choice for next week’s episode that I’m very curious to know more about.

Analyssa: I can’t wait to discuss that fashion choice once I’ve seen it moving around.

Riese: In action.

Drew: Okay, well…

Analyssa: All right, well, another one in the books, friends.

Riese: Okay. I’ll go first. My word is Lorna Doones because they’re a good cookie that I think everybody could enjoy today if you wanted too. You can buy them at any gas station.

Drew: How does that… are we not doing relevant L words anymore?

Riese: Well, I think anyone in the show who wanted to have…

Drew: Oh, sure, sure.

Riese: …a Lorna Doone, could do that as well.

Drew: Yeah.

Analyssa: Okay, I’ll go. Mine is Looney Tunes, which I feel like should be self explanatory of how it relates.

Riese: Yeah, that was a really good one.

Drew: Wow, I can’t think of anything.

Analyssa: Oh God, Drew, you might have to just take the free space and say lesbian.

Drew: My brain is broken.

Riese: I’ll take the space to say that I have now watched Magic Mike and Magic Mike XXL and I loved them both.

Drew: I love that.

Analyssa: This is only going to distract Drew from coming up with an L word.

Riese: Just say “Le Magic Mike.”

Drew: Love, love, love Magic Mike. And I don’t know why I… I just think that some days…

Riese: Lobster roll.

Analyssa: Oh yeah.

Drew: I can’t… no, see that’s the thing, I kept thinking lobster roll and I couldn’t get that out of my brain, but I can’t do it because it’s part of the episode title. But I’m just going to go for it and maybe I should go have dinner and that’ll give me some brain food and then I’ll be back.

Riese: Yeah, get some lentils.

Analyssa: Love it.

Drew: Lentils, great.

Analyssa: Eat some lettuce while you’re at it.

Drew: Great. Great, great.

Riese: Yeah, you got a whole meal and then top it off with a Lorna Doone. And that, my friends, that is dinner. And we’ll see you next week.

Analyssa: That’s dinner.

Drew: That’s beautiful.

Analyssa: Bye.

Riese: Bye, everyone.

“Wait, Is This a Date?” Podcast Episode 104: Sexting or Something Like It

What comes after DM slides? Sexting! Or if you’re me there are like six more steps. Nevertheless our main topic this week is sexting and we’re joined by one of my very favorite writers: Kayla Kumari Upadhyaya.

We start with a game of Sapho or Drew’s 2014 Journal before getting into all the ins and outs of sextual relationships. We’re talking tenses, we’re talking instigation, we’re talking pictures — including the vast possibilities of the Live Photo. This week our direct communication is even hotter than usual!

SHOW NOTES

+ Unfortunately, you have to be Kayla’s girlfriend to see her writing skills via sext, but anyone can read her writing skills in fiction. Here’s one of my favorite stories by her: Field Games.

+ We’ve been asking for a lesbian Grindr as evidenced by this article from B Nichols circa 2011.

+ And by this podcast episode with Shelli from this year.

+ Apparently Scissr made the Guardian before its ill-fated launch.

+ I’ve actually interviewed Mae Martin twice. After season one and after season two.

+ Okay now I’m confused how The Huntsman: Winter’s War isn’t gay?? I mean, look at this photo:

Still from The Huntsman. Charlize Theron as the evil queen strokes Emily Blunt's chin.

Drew: Are you doing role plays out of a scenario of, “You’re touching me right now” or, “I wish you were touching me?” What tense are we in?

Kayla: Yeah, I was going to ask the same question actually, because that’s something that’s always interesting to me, especially just because we are all writers also.

Christina: I was going to say a group of writers. What tense are we working in, how are we feeling? Is this a close third? What’s happening here?

Drew: Hi, I’m Drew!

Christina: I’m Christina!

Drew: And welcome to Wait, Is This A Date?

Christina: Wait, Is This A Date is an Autostraddle podcast dedicated to the wild and crazy world of dating.

Drew: Queer dating.

Christina: You said something wild. I was going to introduce myself again but I’m glad you said queer dating, I think that actually is a better transition.

Drew: But please queer, introduce yourself.

Christina: As Drew mentioned, my name is Queer, I go by Christina, occasionally. I’m a writer at Autostraddle, a queer on the internet who is often deranged and today I have been eating a bag of M&Ms, just a Ziploc bag of M&Ms all day. I do feel lightly nauseous, but that’s the gamble I’ve decided to take.

Drew: I think it sounds worth it?

Christina: Yeah, I’m feeling good about it. There’s just M&Ms in here and Whiteclaw.

Drew: Cool.

Christina: Let’s journey on. Who are you?

Drew: Winning combination. I’m Drew Gregory, I am also a writer at Autostraddle where I do a lot of film coverage and also talk about dating, queer dating. I’m also a filmmaker and a trans lesbian.

Christina: Hot. Sick and hot.

Drew: Yeah. I also spent the weekend with my family for the first time since the pandemic. So, that’s where I’m entering this podcast episode from that headspace and good times.

Christina: Yes. That’s a really interesting energy to bring in, I’m glad that you have it. We have a game, as per usual, to play.

Drew: Yes. Yes, we do.

Christina: And then we’re going to have our main conversation with our special secret guest, who you don’t get to know who it is yet, listeners.

Drew: Yeah. And our topic this week is sexting.

Christina: Blah! That’s how I feel about sexting, we’ll get into it.

Drew: Right.

Christina: Let’s start. Let’s start this game!

Drew: Cool, you seem super comfortable. Okay. So, the last time that I came up with a game, it was to roast you, Christina.

Christina: Yes, that’s me.

Drew: So, I thought that this week I would bring in a game to roast myself.

Christina: Oh, interesting.

Drew: Yeah. So, the name of this game is the very creatively titled “Sappho or Drew’s 2014 Journal?” So, I’m going to be saying some quotes and you’re going to tell me if you think that the quote is by Sappho or by me in 2014. I can give some context if you want, or we can just jump right in.

Christina: Nope, I get it. Let’s roll.

Drew: Great. Okay. So, first quote is: “The fear of death is simply the fear of time.”

Christina: Fuck. This is going to be harder than I thought. I’m going to say, I’m going to say that’s you.

Drew: It is me. Good job. Okay. The next one: “Once again, love drives me on.”

Christina: Are any of these going to be both? That feels like it could be both.

Drew: No. That would be great but no, none of them are both.

Christina: Okay. So, then again, I simply must say that that is Drew.

Drew: No, that’s Sappho.

Christina: Damn, that’s Drew energy.

Drew: Yeah. There’s a lot of these that are, they are pretty much all Drew energy, and apparently all Sappho energy.

Christina: No. Yeah. I get the game, turns out.
Drew: Yes.

Christina: Okay.

Drew: Okay. “I don’t know what to do, my mind is divided.”

Christina: Sappho.

Drew: Yes.

Christina: Yes. I’m fist pumping.

Drew: Yeah, fist pump away.

Christina: Thank you.

Drew: “Her hair is as gold as the mirror she holds and it flows all the way down her back.”

Christina: Sappho.

Drew: No, that’s me.

Christina: Drew! Wow, all right.

Drew: “I’m not supposed to talk but I nod and respond to her touch.”

Christina: Drew.

Drew: Yes.

Christina: Yeah.

Drew: “I must suffer.”

Christina: Again, Sappho but I want it to be both.

Drew: It is Sappho.

Christina: Yeah.

Drew: “Life will only be so patient.”

Christina: Drew?

Drew: Uh-huh (affirmative), you’re doing really well at this. I want you to know that I tried this out on a few friends and they failed, like statistically did worse than they should have, so you’re killing it so far. Okay. “She slid her hands down my back and through my hair and I began doing the same to her, soon we were kissing.”

Christina: Sappho?

Drew: No, that’s me.

Christina: Hair is a motif for you, clocking that.

Drew: Oh, yeah. Look at that. “I have not had one word from her. Frankly, I wish I were dead.”

Christina: Drew?

Drew: No, that’s Sappho.

Christina: Deleting my account. Sappho.

Drew: Yeah. “You came and I was longing for you.”

Christina: Ooh, Sappho.

Drew: Yeah. “I want to say something but shame prevents me.”

Christina: Drew.

Drew: No, that’s Sappho.

Christina: But points were made, I think by me.

Drew: Yeah.

Christina: Yeah.

Drew: Absolutely.

Christina: For sure.

Drew: I think that’s probably the most me of them, which is great because gay shame has just been going on for millennia.

Christina: Yeah. Untold millennia, it’s part of our community and culture. Hot.

Drew: “There is the painter and there is the woman examining herself, exterior, interior, who is she?”

Christina: That’s Drew.

Drew: It is.

Christina: Yeah. Is that 14-year-old Drew?

Drew: No, no, no. 2014 me. So, this is yeah. So, this is all from my journal. So, that was actually me journaling in a museum and I was just very struck by painting, because who doesn’t journle in museums?

Christina: Are you gay?

Drew: I might be gay.

Christina: You might be gay. If your children are journaling in museums they might be gay, just a note.

Drew: Everyone should know that I was not out of the closet at the time so, it was fully just, thought I was a straight guy.

Christina: Vibing.

Drew: Yes. Vibing indeed. Okay, a few more. “You will have memories because of what we did back then when we were new at this.”

Christina: Sappho.

Drew: Yes.

Christina: Yes. I’m so good.

Drew: You’re doing quite well. Okay. “We simply drift together and drift apart the remnants of the greatest passions lingering as the next great passion presents itself.”

Christina: Drew.

Drew: Yeah. I wasn’t keeping score but you’ve gotten most of these.

Christina: Yeah, I’m also now regretting not keeping score. I would have hated if we were keeping score and I was doing poorly, but now that I’m doing well, I’m like, what—

Drew: I’m going to say you’ve gotten nine right.

Christina: Okay. That sounds like a great number.

Drew: Yeah. Okay. This is the last one.

Christina: Okay.

Drew: It’s a really tricky one though. Okay?

Christina: I’ve got to get 10.

Drew: Yeah. Okay. Ready? “I woke up this morning with a big zit starting to form under the skin between my eyebrows a day before my date, of course.”

Christina: I’m going to say that’s Drew.

Drew: It is. Big surprise, big surprise.

Christina: Big surprise, big surprise. Sappho was not letting us into the zits of her life, unfortunately.

Drew: Well, thank you so much for playing.

Christina: Wow. That was so fun.

Drew: I hope you learned a lot about me, or learned nothing about me.

Christina: I think I learned, I personally learned that my knowledge of you is correct and that we are friends. And I think that’s a great thing for me to learn.

Drew: Yeah. I was going through a breakup during this time, it was rough.

Christina: Yeah, didn’t seem not rough, I’ll say that, didn’t seem gentle, perhaps we could say?

Drew: I survived, and so did Sappho, well eventually she died but, you know

Christina: Sure, sure, sure. Are you ready to talk about our main topic? Do you think we’re mentally there?

Drew: Oh, my God, I’m so ready.

Christina: I’m ready, again, to do a lot of learning, this is going to be a listen and learn space for me and I’m really glad that we have such a guest who is so brilliant and thoughtful and, I think, an expert in the realm of sexting.

Drew: Oh, I agree. Kayla, do you want to introduce yourself?

Kayla: Yes. I’m Kayla Kumari Upadhyaya, I am also a writer at Autostraddle and elsewhere on the internet, yeah.

Christina: Sexting expert, sextpert.

Kayla: And sexting expert. Yes.

Christina: Yes. I will be putting that in all of your materials going forward.

Kayla: It’s a very important part of my CV.

Christina: Yes. Yes. We love to respect a CV here.

Drew: I want the people at home, or wherever you’re listening to this, to know that, I don’t know, a month ago I texted Kayla to ask for advice on what it’s like to meet someone when you’ve been having an internet courtship, whatever, and Kayla, I was wanting all of this emotional assistance, et cetera, et cetera. And Kayla was like, Oh, we just sexted. I was like, got it, got it, got it. Okay, cool. Cool, cool.

Kayla: Yeah, it wasn’t that deep, I guess in the beginning.

Christina: I think that’s really a beautiful, just a nice way of framing things. Things we can always bring a Drew/perhaps Sappho perspective to things. It can always be quite deep, but sometimes it can start out not that deep and get deep, that’s really beautiful. I want everybody out there to remember that beautiful thing.

Drew: Yeah. So, what’s your relationship to sexting? Have you always liked it? Is it always been something that’s, has it developed over time your comfortability with it?

Kayla: Yeah. I mean, I think I did always like it, I wasn’t sexting up a storm in my, I don’t know, like in college or anything, I mean, to be fair, I was deeply closeted. And so, my dating and sexual history was all kind of a mess for a while but once I did come out, I would say yes, that sexting was something I was into pretty much right away and part of it, I think is just being a former Tumblr kid a little bit. I was just used to connecting with people in that way, online, over text or whatever. I’d done that for so long, that it just felt very natural to me, especially since I hadn’t had a lot of sex and stuff. So, it almost felt easier at first and then I just realized that I liked it, and it continued, and yeah. But then there was a long period of time where I didn’t really think about sexting that much, it was during my last relationship and then when that relationship ended in a pretty dramatic way, all of a sudden there was this period of time where I was sexting all the time, whoever, whenever, wherever.

Christina: Just “You up?” constantly.

Kayla: Exactly. It was a steady stream. Yeah. That’s my journey with sexting, I guess. It’s not a lot, a lot, not a lot again.

Christina: Peaks and valleys.

Kayla: Exactly.

Drew: When you are sexting, do you primarily, does that mean sending photos to you or does it mean dirty talk text texting sexting?

Kayla: Yeah…

Christina: That was a question I actually have for both of you, because I have trouble delineating on that front.

Kayla: Yeah, I think that, that’s something that varies person to person because for me I usually, it’s a multimedia experience. You have the texts, you have the photos, you have I guess that’s it, I know some people do audio message type stuff, I’m less into that, I think.

Christina: You’re not sending a VR lens or anything, there’s no Oculus happening?

Kayla: I want a 4D experience.

Christina: Yeah.

Kayla: No. It’s pretty much just texts and photos but I’m not necessarily expecting that in return, I guess, is what I would say is that, I like to use photos but I’m not like, “I need photos!’

Christina: Yeah, “Pics or it didn’t happen!”

Kayla: Exactly. I don’t know about you, Drew.

Drew: Yeah. I mean, I feel like I’ll do both but usually at different times. I feel like when I’m sending photos, I’m photo ready and that doesn’t just mean, I don’t know, the proper things are trimmed and shaved and et cetera, et cetera, but also just spiritually, I think it is a different energy that I need in order to text sext versus send pictures sext, and I don’t know. I also feel like a lot of times when it comes to sending pictures, I think I tend to do more of, this is for — not for everybody, but for like 20 people on my close friends or whatever, as opposed to sending it specifically to someone. That’s more for, if I’m in a relationship, I’ll send sexy photos but I don’t often send photos to someone who I’m newly dating or interested in, but I will more text. I also think I’m better at, I don’t know, just like I’m a writer better than I’m a photographer?

Christina: For sure, yeah. That’s true.

Drew: And so, I feel like I could confidently say that I’m pretty good at the texting side of sexting.

Christina: Yeah, I would believe that of you. That seems like something, a skill set you would have.

Drew: Yeah. But I pretty much only do that if I’ve had sex with someone before. I don’t—

Kayla: Really?

Drew: Yeah…

Christina: Okay. So, interesting, interesting.

Drew: Well, there’s two. Either, I will do it with someone who I’ve had sex with before or who I don’t think that I will ever have sex with.

Christina: Oh, okay. Sure. Okay.

Drew: For example, I have sexted with people who are, I don’t know, who slid into my DMS and live in, I don’t know, there was someone who lived in Paris who was talking to me during the pandemic and I was like, “It’s a pandemic. You live on a different continent, this is so not real—

Kayla: The stakes are low.

Drew: Yeah, like whatever. And if someday we met, great, but it didn’t feel — I wasn’t dating this person, but I have cut off when things started to move in that direction with the person who I’m virtually dating in Canada where it actually feels like, “Oh, someday I will have sex with this person, probably.” And so much of sexting to me in text is based on what I know the person is into, and what we’ve done together or what I think that they would want me to do, and I just feel like if I haven’t actually had sex with the person—

Christina: You need that baseline experience.

Drew: I think so.

Christina: And then you want to translate that into the texting space.

Drew: Yeah, I think so.

Christina: Interesting.

Kayla: Yeah, I mean, I’m the complete opposite. I’m trying to think of an instance where I didn’t do the exact inverse of that. I have almost always, if I was regularly sexting with someone, it was sexting happened for a while before we actually had sex, and I actually almost use it as an opportunity and figure out what they’re into.

Christina: Right, you’re bringing your study knowledge into the physical space at some point.

Kayla: Yes.

Christina: You’re bringing, I’ve done this reading, let me bring you the course book I’ve done.

Kayla: Exactly. It’s like research, it’s a little exploratory, which can be difficult at first, I think, because it’s, anytime that you’re having sex with somebody for the first time too, you are feeling out like, okay. In a perfect world of course we’d be able to have these clear cut conversations, “This is what I’m into,” but I think we all know that, that’s not really how it works a lot of the time, and so, it’s just like yeah, “doing research” a little bit, exploratory moment.

Christina: Putting together an exploratory committee.

Kayla: Yes. I have my binder and my notes… So, that’s what sexting has felt like for me. And I think for me too, especially when I was coming out and first starting to sext and stuff, it was a way for me to explore and research myself. It felt like a lower pressure, less vulnerable setting for maybe saying, “This is something I’m specifically into,” or research on myself.

Christina: I think that makes sense. Yeah, I don’t do a ton of sexting to the surprise of — checks notes — literally no one. But when I did, when I was youthful and had more vim/vigor, it was easier to do before a meetup scenario or in, we’re sliding into DMs, we’ve slid into texts scenario, even though it was less sliding into DMs, because again, I was youthful and I was on social media less. But it always felt like, “Okay, yeah, this is the first step and then we can move into the pressure of being in real life sex.” But this moment is a “we’re exploring, we’re figuring stuff out, we’re typing.”

Drew: That makes so much sense to me and yet in practice, I just am like, what do you, I guess you’d say something and if the person’s not into it, then I just, I think it’s connected to something that I need to let go of in sex in general which is, I want to be doing a good job. And I want to be, “Well, what if I say something and they’re not into that? In real life, I can pick up on body language or ask. But I feel like with sexting, it feels, yeah, it’s exploratory in a way that maybe this should be a challenge for myself, maybe I should try sext without — oof, yeah. Because it makes total sense of, what a great way to figure out what you’re into before the stakes are as high as you actually being there naked with another person or not naked, if what you’re into is not being naked.

Christina: Yeah. I mean, I do hear what you’re saying.

Kayla: I mean, I will say, it does run a risk some of the times because I have had experiences where it’s like the dynamic over sexting was not the dynamic in person. And I naturally would feel disappointed, or at least taken off guard, which isn’t fair because I do think that’s what makes sexting weird is, in some ways it can feel like the most authentic expression of desire in what you want because it is so low stakes, you’re not facing this person, you can just say whatever, but then that also introduces a fantasy element to it. So, sometimes I feel like people might present themselves in a certain way. I will say this has only ever been people asserting that they are tops and then they are not tops. I’ve never seen it in the other direction.

Drew: Yeah.

Christina: Yeah, no, yeah. I hear that.

Kayla: Yeah.

Drew: You see, that’s really interesting to me because I feel like I’m more dominant in person. I mean, I’m not sexting as a bottom, because I’m not — I’m not sexting before having sex but I feel like I feel in sexting a little bit timid about saying certain things or I don’t know, maybe something about it, like being written out, and maybe I should try voice memos, but it being written out and I’m putting it out into the world, it gives me—

Christina: Does it feel like it’s on the record for you?

Drew: Maybe.

Christina: You’re like, should this be on the record?

Drew: Maybe, yeah.

Christina: Like “I’ve said this, there’s no taking it back”?

Drew: But that’s also my own — again, not to make this about my own problems that I need to work through, but I mean, what is this podcast?

Christina: No. I think that’s why we decided to do this podcast.

Drew: Yeah. But, I think in person, I just again, I can pick up on whether someone’s into something and can work up to something. I mean, I guess you can work up to something message back and forth, I don’t know. I just think that in the heat of the moment, when — because when I’m sexting, I’m often not turned on. Often the other person is turned on and I’m like “Oh, cool. I’m going to get this person off,” which again is connected to the thing I was just saying before—

Christina: The performance thing and the doing well.

Drew: Yeah.

Christina: Yeah. So, you’re bringing a real “come into work” energy with this. You’re signing into the office, you’re punching that time card.

Drew: Not only is my sun in Capricorn but also my Mars is in Capricorn. So, but yeah, I just, maybe that’s something I should work on.

Christina: Could be good.

Drew: Also a lot of times when I’ve sexted, the people aren’t — a lot of people aren’t good at it.

Kayla: Well, that is true too.

Christina: Right. Well, I think that’s the elephant here in the room. I mean, people aren’t good at texting a lot of the time generally, finding your text rhythm with a person is always like “Oh, my God, we have it” or we simply don’t and that’s always a bummer, but sometimes you can have that text rhythm and then the sexting rhythm, you’re like, “Oh, no, where did it go? What happened?”

Drew: Yeah.

Christina: That’s not nice. And that’s a challenge that I usually would get. That for me is like, okay, I’m giving up. I’ve never been invested enough at that point to be, “Okay, I’m going to work on this, and figure out how we can sext better.” I’m like, “Oh, no. Well, there’s a butterfly or something I have to chase, I’m busy now.”

Drew: No, it’s just like anything inside, sometimes where you’re like, if you’re not good at this thing, we can do another thing. And some people are better at sending pictures than they are at the texting and knowing that and being cool.

Christina: Opening that mixed media approach, we love to see it.

Drew: Yeah. I’ve definitely had that where I would get someone off and then they would take a picture of themselves and be like, “I just came” and I’m like, cool. We both — and then maybe I could also come at some point because of that picture, as opposed to the back and forth. I’m also curious though, when you’re sexting via text, are you doing role-plays of a scenario of like, “You’re touching me right now” or “I wish you were touching me?” What tense are we in?

Kayla: Yeah, I was going to ask the same question, actually, because that’s something that’s always interesting to me, especially just because we are all writers also.

Christina: I was going to say, a group of writers, what tense are we working in, how are we feeling?

Kayla: What point of view?

Christina: Is this a close third, what’s happening here?

Kayla: Strictly second?

Christina: Challenge. Sext in strictly second person.

Kayla: I usually have done a mix, actually. It depends. And sometimes it’s meeting the other person and what they are doing but I would say more often than not, it was like, honestly I don’t sext as much as I used to, it’s, people stop sexting once they move in together, turns out, and pandemic.

Christina: I’m taking notes.

Kayla: Or the only people we talk to. So, but if I remember correctly I would go off of cues, because I feel like, yeah, I would definitely do both. And I don’t know if that was just like yeah, me responding to what they’re saying or just choosing something and going with it. But I know that I’ve done both and I’m comfortable with both. I feel like more often than not, it was the more prose style, this is what’s happening, let me set the scene.

Christina: Like a narrative candle, in some ways.

Kayla: Yeah, exactly. That has more of a contained fantasy. I think for me, at least it was easier to get off in a context like that versus, “Here’s what I wish you were doing to me right now,” or whatever.

Christina: Yeah. I’m trying to think because of history and time, I think also my gut says, because I probably am not ever going to be a person who initiates sexting, I was like, “Okay, whatever tenses, whatever vibe you’re bringing on, I’ll just match that energy. I’m just going to, that’s fine, I can do that.” I don’t know that I’ve ever really driven the conversation/tense discussion in that manner. Yeah. I don’t know. What about you, Drew?

Drew: I think I definitely skew towards, yeah, prose style, like this is a little fanfic starring the two of us.

Christina: Yeah.

Kayla: Yeah.

Christina: Quick one shot.

Drew: There’s just so many possibilities and that is a fun way I think, to explore certain things. Again, I’ve enjoyed using sexting as an exploratory tool with people who I’ve been having sex with, who have already, so, it’s interesting the idea of, yeah, you could do that beforehand. But because it’s not Oh, I would only sext by describing things that have already happened, I would delve out of that. So, yeah. But definitely keeping it in a narrative, I think was always something that, but I also with porn, I like narrative, I like a story, even if it’s a bad story, I like to have some sort of narrative.

Kayla: Same.

Christina: Genuinely, one of my favorite voice memos I ever got from Drew was like, “I just watched a porn and it was fine, but also it was a really lovely end to the narrative.”

Drew: Oh, because what I was happy about is that, usually the way porn works—

Christina: I’m listening.

Drew: Is that there might be a narrative but then once they have sex, they have sex, sometimes they even drop the dynamic while they’re having sex, that always really annoys me where I’m like, “Wait, it’s that person’s first time with a woman and she’s like, well, how is she? Keep the story going, come on.” But in this, it had a little epilogue at the end where there was more story, just a two minute little epilogue, I really appreciated it. And I did, I think I recorded it and sent it to Christina.

Christina: It was a very charming, listen to this little button. How cute is that? I woke up, like me at 7:00 AM, like, okay, vibes. But I do understand that because I am the same way, not necessarily in porn, but I’ve never been a person who understands how do you masturbate and have just a fantasy? Because how did you get to that place even in a fantasy, I’m like, well, how did I get here? What do I have with me? What am I doing later? What was I doing before this? Where am I going? What am I like, all of those details, I need to have nailed down or else I’m just too distracted. So, I think in the sexting form, having a space to be like this is this, here’s the scene, I’m setting it.

Kayla: Here’s the scene. I need bare minimum, a dynamic to be established.

Christina: Here’s an energy.

Kayla: Yeah.

Drew: Yeah. I had an ex once who was trying to create a little whatever scenario and the scenario was that we were having sex in a bookstore and I was like, “Wait, what kind of bookstore?” And she was like, “What?” And I was like, “How big is the bookstore?” “Does that matter?” I’m like—

Christina: Yes!

Drew: Yes, it matters. The difference between The Strand and—

Christina: Am I in a Borders?

Drew: An East Village Books, like Barnes & Noble, those are all very different energies.

Christina: Where’s the Starbucks? Is it built in? Yeah, talk about that, absolutely matters.

Drew: I need to know these things. Yeah. She did not understand but, that’s why we’re not together. That’s not why we’re not together, but.

Kayla: It all came down to the bookstore, the imaginary bookstore.

Drew: Yeah.

Christina: I don’t know. I feel the vibe in this chat right now is we would all say, yeah, of course. That’s why you’re not together, that totally makes sense.

Drew: Is it a fair assumption that people who are good writers are good at texting sexting? Which is now why I’m calling sexting when it’s with sex?

Christina: Texting sexting.

Kayla: Textual sexting.

Christina: Textual sexting.

Kayla: I don’t think it’s necessarily a given because it is its own specific type of writing, I feel like, so, I don’t know.

Christina: Yeah. Now, I’m just thinking and I’m trying to think of every person that I text and I just feel like, I think it probably helps more than it — less than it would hurt. I think it’s more helpful in — but I don’t know that it’s necessary. But then again, I don’t know that I’ve actually really texted long-term with someone who isn’t in some way a writer of some kind.

Drew: Isn’t everyone a writer?

Christina: Yeah, I was generally just going through my contacts, well, no, I don’t think, I think everybody turns out that way. That’s a brain teaser.

Drew: Okay. Well, moving on to pictures and that type of sexting.

Kayla: Yeah.

Drew: I don’t have anything—

Christina: Oh, okay.

Drew: Oh, sorry—

Christina: I was really just listening. I was just like—

Drew: Actually wait, I do have a fun thing that I have — who did I tell this to? I don’t know. I’ve definitely preached this before and either people are like, yeah, obviously, or people are very surprised by this. And that is the potential of the live photo. I think people in their sexting lives aren’t utilizing the live photo to the extent that they could because it’s such a fun little, I think if you send a video to someone, that’s a choice in a way, which is a great choice, but it is a choice in a way that a live photo it feels like a little tease or it’s a sexy photo but then I don’t know, you like — move your, depending on where the photo is of, but your hand along your thigh or lick your lips, or just something where it’s a little and I don’t know, it’s a fun little thing that I think people should do more.

Kayla: Yeah. I would’ve never thought of that.

Christina: Yeah. I think the idea of bringing a live photo into intentional space instead of “Oh, whoops, that’s a live photo,” which is usually what happens to me when I’m taking photos of I don’t know, a baked good, that’s usually where I’m like, “Oh, damn it, that’s a live photo.” But bringing them into an intentional space, I think that has potential. It’s like you’re making a GIF, is what you’re doing.

Drew: Yes, exactly. I mean, and this started as an, I discovered this because someone sent me and then was like, “Oh my God, did I accidentally send a live photo?” I was like, “Yeah, it’s really hot.” And it’s like, “Oh, my God, your peanut butter is in my chocolate, Reese’s are born.” It was very exciting. And since then it has been a little go-to.

Christina: Yeah. I’m going to meditate on that, that’s a hot tip. Also, I am straight up a person who almost never photo sexts, I’m trying to think if I have actually genuinely done it.

Drew: Yeah. When was the last time you sent, and how naked, if you don’t mind sharing?

Christina: I’m going to have to be thinking of that for a minute. I honestly might have never done it. That doesn’t seem right, but it might be right.

Drew: That’s fine.

Christina: Yeah, no, I mean the memory banks coming up empty there. Yikes.

Drew: That’s not yikes. You don’t have to send naked photos to anyone you don’t want to.

Christina: Oh, certainly. But I’m just very vain and I always have a full face of makeup on, so it’s what the hell are you doing, really? But yeah.

Drew: It’s something you want to bring into your life?

Christina: It’s something I could probably move into.

Drew: Okay.

Christina: But again, there’s never a natural space for me to reach into a photo space. I’m always like, “Well, I could just write that down instead, I could write words instead.” Yeah.

Drew: Okay. So, how do you both — well, especially Kayla, and Christina, weigh in if you have memories that you want to bring up.

Christina: Sure.

Drew: How do you initiate with people if you haven’t sexted with a person before, does it just naturally get there because things are getting flirty? Because there’s that in-between where it’s not sexting but you are talking about sex or it’s like in the area or you send a picture and it’s “Oh, my God, look, I’m cooking dinner!” And it’s like, um, you’re topless. You know what I mean? Not like topless topless, that would be a choice. But like a teaser, the point of that photo is not that you’re cooking. But like how do you get there, to sext actually?

Christina: Yeah. I think I’ve only ever gotten there from the, “we’re flirting and then we’ve led into it naturally” zone, I don’t think I’ve ever sent out just a, “Hey, you up, let’s sext” vibe. I don’t think I’ve done that one.

Kayla: Yeah. I think I too have always done kind of, like, where, it’s somewhere between awkward and natural dance of escalating the flirtation. Yeah. Because I will say also, when I was first on dating apps and stuff and that was two relationships ago now. So, dating apps were also just becoming a thing but in that space, I always found it actually really hard to get to that point. And I don’t know if that was also just when I was on dating apps because they were somewhat new, like Tinder was very new. And so, I don’t know if people just didn’t have practice or what but I remember that being a struggle where it’s just like, okay, we’ve been so flirty and it feels very, like we’re stuck in a place now. But after that, it’s always worked out better for me when somebody has slid into my DMs, I mean, that’s literally how I’m in a relationship now, is she slid into my DMs. But she and I, we also did a little bit of a dance leading up to before we actually started sexting. And if I remember correctly, I actually made the first move on that but I think she just didn’t want to, because of our age difference.

Christina: Age gap discourses has entered the chat. Considering that Kayla and I are both on this call, it took a shockingly long time for time for that.

Kayla: Shocking. Shocking, finally got there.

Christina: Finally got there. Incredible work.

Kayla: But then every time too, once it does hit that point, it’s just okay, we’re fine now. We don’t have to do the dance again, once you start, it’s okay, that door is open now.

Drew: Totally.

Kayla: Yeah.

Drew: Did it start with text or pictures, when that line was first crossed?

Kayla: Text, I think. Yeah, text. Yeah.

Christina: Yeah, I feel like text is easier.

Kayla: And I feel that’s usually the case for me. Yeah.

Drew: Yeah.

Kayla: I really like photos a lot, I really do, but I feel like for starting out, it’s usually texts and then, yeah, that’s phase one of the exploration, next is some photos, and you know.

Drew: Yeah.

Christina: Yeah. I think that’s interesting because I wonder if, what the difference in-between, sliding into a DM versus if you’re on a dating app and you meet somebody? I do feel there is a difference there and the ease in which you can move to a sexting space, but I’m not sure why that difference exists at the same time.

Kayla: I think part of it is just, I don’t know, if somebody, I mean, obviously in theory, if you’re on a dating app, you are looking for either sex or to date or something like that, but that’s not always totally the case. Whereas, if you slide into somebody’s DMs, it seems like a very active, I am hitting on you, even more so than the dating apps do.

Christina: I’ve seen this content from you and I’m like, I’m into it.

Kayla: Yeah.

Christina: Hello, I’d like to be more involved in your life in some way.

Drew: It should be the opposite, theoretically.

Kayla: It should be!

Christina: Absolutely! That’s why I’m confused.

Drew: Theoretically, if you’re on a dating app, but I actually, when I think about it, I’m like, “Oh yeah, I’ve made friends on dating apps,” but it’s annoying but it’s also because of, I think specifically queer women and non-binary people in this lesbian community on dating apps, we don’t have a Grindr and people don’t really use Tinder that way. And so, I think part of it is that people are pretty timid on dating apps and I think maybe feel a little bolder in a social media space because it feels like you maybe know the person more, or there’s a little bit more of a… yeah.

Kayla: Because usually if the slide into the DMs comes after another little awkward dance of, okay, we’ve been following each other, we’ve been each other’s content, there’s something that’s established here and now I am going, it does feel like making a move. But you just made me think of something. I don’t know if either of you know about — this is a tangent for a second, but there was briefly a lesbian version of Grindr that only existed in Chicago and it was called Scissr.

Christina: Good.

Drew: Wow.

Christina: Great. Tempting. More notes.

Kayla: But like S-C-I-S-R, or something—

Christina: It simply didn’t need a single vowel. Absolutely not, Consonants only.

Kayla: It did not last very long, but it existed when I lived in Chicago so I was one of the beta users of Scissr, the application Scissr.

Christina: So, what was that like? Was it successful? Did you succeed ever?

Kayla: I hooked up with one person out of it, but it felt like a very drawn out and dramatic thing that I was just like, “Ok, I don’t think this is…” Yeah. And that was the girl who every time I went back to her apartment, she had an additional ferret.

Drew: Oh, my God. Ferret girl!

Kayla: Ferret girl.

Drew: Wow.

Christina: How many ferrets?

Kayla: We only got up to two.

Drew: Christina’s face is the face of someone who has never heard about ferret girl.

Christina: I’m not, and we’ll be following up off mic about that one, my friend. But the phrase “additional ferret” made me immediately jump to six ferrets, I got very worried about ferrets because they are gross. Wow. Okay.

Kayla: Yeah. That was Scissr. The funniest part about Scissr too, was that I read some interview with the dykes who created it and they did this whole interview about how they wanted it to be classier than Grindr and how it could actually be used for professional networking, and I was like—

Drew: No!

Kayla: I was like, you called it Scissr, first of all!

Drew: That’s exactly what we don’t need.

Kayla: That’s the opposite.

Christina: We need less places to professionally network as lesbians, I’d say. We need less of that, we’re good.

Kayla: We are maxed out on networking.

Drew: Yeah.

Christina: No more. No more of that I say.

Drew: But then you fuck your coworkers because there’s no lesbian Grindr and then boundaries are problems. And this is why all of the problems could just be solved by Scissr.

Christina: I feel like when personals transitioned from personals to the Lex App, I feel there was an idea that that could have been a space where in we were doing, “Want to have sex tonight, come find me tonight at X time.” And that just didn’t work out because of all the reasons we enumerated. Yeah. It became, “Do witch magic with me under the moonlight.”

Drew: I logged on to Lex, I redownloaded it to be like, “Okay, we’re all starting to get vaccinated, maybe Lex is going to return to that. And the first two things I saw — one was, “Just because we’re all vaccinated doesn’t mean I’m not traumatized, I’m still not meeting up with people.” I was like, cool, thanks for sharing that thought. And then the next one was like, it was I don’t know, it was something similar, I just was like, I guess we’re not, I guess, okay.

Christina: I can’t imagine the energy it would take to log onto a dating app, create an ad that is, “Just so you know, I have trauma and I’m not doing this.” Okay. So, you could have just not done that, I guess.

Kayla: Write it in your diary, I don’t know.

Christina: Simply write it in the journal.

Drew: Wait, wait, wait, Lex isn’t your diary?

Christina: I’ve heard. I’ve been locked out of my diary for a long time because I don’t remember my password and I can’t get back in and I don’t care.

Drew: Should I just start posting quotes from my 2014 journal as Lex ads?

Kayla: Yes.

Christina: Yes.

Kayla: Absolutely.

Christina: You will have 18 relationships by summer’s begin. No doubt. Great. By Memorial Day you will have two girlfriends, no doubt.

Drew: I mean, fear of death is simply the fear of time, so.

Christina: Is there any final sexting thoughts we want to hit before we wrap? I want to make sure we’ve got all of our sexting feelings out there. What is one sexting piece of advice that you would give to people who are either thinking about it or wanting to try it anew perhaps? And I’m not talking about myself, certainly, not at all.

Kayla: I mean, I do think that, because I write advice semi-regularly for Autostraddle, and I feel like I do bring up sexting from time to time because I do feel like a lot of people really struggled to articulate their desires and stuff, which is understandable. I mean, sometimes we don’t even have that stuff really figured out, but I do think that sexting can be a really useful tool for figuring out what you’re into, also potentially figuring out what somebody else is into, exploring things, seeing if you’re open to it and just in a lower stakes environment than figuring out when you’re sweating in a room with someone.

Drew: Yeah. I think that’s really good advice that I’m going to really ruminate on and potentially bring into my own life and maybe report back on how that goes.

Christina: I can’t wait for that report back. I want it desperately.

Kayla: I guess that’s something that I could have mentioned when we were talking about tense and stuff, but I also do tend to ask questions — and not, there’s a way where that can be a cop out. I’ve definitely sexted with people who were either not good at sexting or just weren’t willing to be as vulnerable or whatever and so, their version of it is just only asking questions. They’re like, “What do you want me to do? What do you like?” And it’s just, okay, you’re not going to contribute to this at all? Where’s the improv 101, we are doing this together.

Christina: “Yes, and” energy please.

Kayla: Exactly. So, I think that can sometimes be a cop out, but I think that if there’s a mixture of yeah, me saying this, but then maybe I do break it and say, “Do you have something that you like to be called?” Or whatever, and then letting it be more of a madlibs situation where they can fill in some of the blanks.

Christina: “Workshop this with me” energy. Yeah. Drew, you look so thoughtful right now.

Drew: No, I’m just absorbing it all. I’m here to learn as well, so.

Christina: I love that. I love that for you.

Drew: Thanks.

Christina: Yeah. I feel like I don’t have any tips because I haven’t really used that muscle in a while, read the room, read the vibe, I feel like is always my go-to tip in most situations. Yeah. But I think, I don’t know, maybe Drew and I will bring some of this energy to our summer escapades and we’ll see what happens.

Drew: Yeah. I love it. I mean, I also think specificity is — this is just honestly, this is just like a tip for writers, where it’s just like, oh, it makes sense that I think in sexting, sometimes people who have been not as good with sexting with me, they’re just jumping too quickly to the next stage of this whatever imagined sexual encounter, and it’s for me, what’s going to work is if I can really imagine it. So you know, you gotta have a little digital language. Yeah. Come on. A little poetry here.

Christina: A little poetry here is great. Let’s have a crush! Yo Drew, do you have a crush?

Drew: I always have a crush.

Christina: I know you do. Who’s your crush this week?

Drew: Okay. So, this is actually a really landmark moment for me, because it is a celebrity crush but it’s a friend celebrity crush. So, it is a crush that is, for me, not sexual but for a lot of other people in my life, it is sexual, but I have done some mental work and realized that I just want to be this person or be friends with this person.

Christina: So, is this a crush or is this a humble brag? Just wanted to check.

Drew: What? No, no. This person is — no, no, it’s not a humble brag because this person is not my friend. I am just saying.

Kayla: Oh, it’s a friend crush?

Drew: Yeah. No. Well, first friend crush can mean, “This person is my friend and I have a crush on them” or, can mean all sorts of things. In this case, it’s a celebrity crush but it’s just someone who I really like a lot as a person, but it’s not really sexual for me. Okay.

Christina: Okay.

Drew: So, the second and final season of Feel Good is out and I think it’s great and I just love Mae Martin so much. Humble brag is that I have gotten to interview them.

Christina: Well, there it is.

Drew: But I just think that I love Feel Good and I think it’s that I love how messy the show is and how messy they’re willing to be in this fictional/autobiographical space. And I relate to them a lot, in a lot of gender ways and painful, romantic ways. So, they’re my crush of the week.

Christina: Yeah. It is a really, really, really good season. So, thrilled by that. I guess I’ll go. Oh, yeah. I watched Snow White and the Huntsman and Snow White and the Huntsman 2 last night. Couple of things. Both aren’t great. Second one, may be better. Tough to say. And while Charlize, incredible energy, she brings a performance, it’s really just like ma’am, you didn’t have to commit this hard. Emily Blunt in the second film, I said, well, okay, she’s giving you ice goddess, she’s giving you angry but sad mommy, and I said, I respect that, thank you Emily Blunt, I love your work, great. She’s my crush corner this week, Emily Blunt. Yay.

Drew: Okay.

Kayla: I saw both of those movies in the theater, so.

Christina: I saw the first one in the theater for sure, the second one, I don’t know that I knew it existed and I’m still a little perplexed as to how it exists but it does and there it is. Emily Blunt.

Drew: I’ve seen neither. I want to know, what’s the second one called?

Christina: Snow White and the Huntsman 2, or Huntsman’s Corner? I don’t know, something—

Drew: Wait, really? So, wait, wait. So there’s still the Huntsman?

Kayla: Yeah.

Christina: He’s still in it.

Drew: The Huntsman is still there. I just assumed that—

Christina: The only person who’s not in it is Kristen Stewart.

Kayla: Yeah.

Drew: Wait, Kristen Stewart isn’t in the second one?

Kayla: No.

Christina: Correct.

Drew: Wait, I’m sorry. This is not important, but—

Christina: That’s why I don’t know how it got made, I don’t know how it got made. She’s not in it.

Drew: Fascinating. Well, I love learning. Okay. Kayla, who’s your crush?

Christina: It’s The Huntsman: Winter’s War.

Drew: Wow.

Kayla: I was like, it has something to do with a battle or a war or something because it’s basically just Charlize Theron and Emily Blunt, fighting.

Drew: That sounds good.

Kayla: Which, you know, hot, so.

Christina: Right. So, right.

Kayla: Okay. I’m not done with it yet, but I’ve been watching Girls5eva, and so, I’m going to say Renee Elise Goldsberry is my crush.

Christina: Sick. Perfect.

Kayla: Which just feels like a circular moment for me from back when she was on The Good Wife, and was very underused on The Good Wife, but was great.

Christina: True.

Kayla: And yeah, I don’t know, her character is incredible, she’s just a self-obsessed bimbo, who knows she has the best voice in the room, and so she’ll just bust it out at any point. Yeah. It’s been a joy to watch. She’s definitely been the best part.

Drew: I love it.

Christina: That’s incredible.

Drew: Well Kayla, will you tell us where people can find you and your work?

Kayla: Yeah. So, I am @KaylaKumari on every single social media, I consolidated that at one point, so, very easy to find.

Christina: Nice job branding.

Kayla: Yeah. I mean I’m on Autostraddle almost every day, it seems I have something go up there, it’s an easy way to find me. And just at my website also kaylakumariupadhyaya.com that’s where you can find more of my fiction work and stuff.

Christina: Yay! Go find, we love, we respect. We do have a question and it’s: So, Kayla, was this a date? Are we on a date right now?

Kayla: Is this a date?

Christina: I don’t know.

Kayla: Is this a date? I feel like the true lesbian thing is always to not ask or answer that question but just let it sit there in the universe and then maybe ask everyone you know after the fact, like, “Do you think I was on a date or not?”

Christina: Cool. So, we’ll just send out a poll to the listeners after this episode airs and just let them decide if we were on a date or not.

Kayla: Yes. Need someone to make that decision for me.

Christina: Yeah. Okay. That tracks, great.

Drew: Great. Cool.

Christina: I think that’s amazing.

Drew: Thanks, Kayla.

Kayla: Yeah. Thank you guys. This was amazing. It’s great.

Christina: This is fun. I love fun.

Drew: Thank you so much for listening to Wait, Is This a Date? You can find us on Twitter and Instagram @waitisthisadate. And you can also email us at waitisthisadate@gmail.com.

Christina: Our theme was written by Lauren Klein. Our logo is by Maanya Dhar. And this podcast was edited, produced, and mixed by Lauren Klein. You can find me online @c_gracet on twitter.com, the website. And you can find me on Instagram at @christina_gracet.

Drew: And you can find me on Twitter, Instagram, and TikTok @draw_gregory. And you can find Autostraddle on all social medias @autostraddle.

Christina: And go visit autostraddle.com, because it’s the reason we’re all here today.

Drew: Thank you all so much. And, you know, see you next week!

Christina: Yeah. We’ll absolutely see you next week. And we can’t wait.

Drew: Yeah. And you know, maybe next week, maybe next week will be a date.

Christina: Hey, maybe it will be! Wilder things have happened.

Drew: Except you know what? I also think it’s important to clarify to the listener that if you ask someone if something’s a date or not, we probably should take that as sort of like a moving forward — I don’t think every time you see someone you should… That’s not really direct communication as much as it is like not really respecting someone’s boundaries. And you know, we do like boundaries here at Wait, Is This a Date?

Christina: The gayest thing about this podcast is that the outro is a boundary.

Drew, in a voice memo: You now how in the old days in the Victorian era or whatever, people would lust after ankles because they weren’t seeing them. That’s how I’ve been feeling lately when it comes to sexting where I’m like the mildest sexual text, or picture, or video from someone who I’m flirting with, I’m just like, “Oh, my God, this is so hot.” And I’m like, “Is it? Or has it just been a really long time?” You know what I mean? Oh, this pandemic just keeps on going, doesn’t it?

“To L and Back” Generation Q Podcast Episode 204: Lake House

Folks, it has finally happened. The members of our OG L Word cast have finally awoken from their decade-long collective dream and remembered that they have a past! Shane shares her regret about Carmen with Angie, and still definitely wants to get with Alice’s mom. Alice, already busy crying over her break-up with Nat, decides to make us all cry by talking about Dana Fairbanks. Our friend Bette is too busy looking at Pippa Pascal in awe to remember that she has definitely done more stuff worth remembering than just “cheated on Tina seventeen years ago.” (Justice for Jodi.)

Meanwhile, our Gen Q crew is off doing things that they will conveniently forget to mention when they are in the next reboot 10 years from now. Sophie and Finley are starting to spend more time together, and of course Dani and Micah have feelings and thoughts about that (though Micah’s thoughts and feelings seem to be growing in Maribel’s direction, tbh). Listen to us unpack it all on To L and Back, and we’ll even tell you our first AIM screennames as a treat!

SHOW NOTES

Riese’s recap of Lake House
The Lake House starring Keanu Reeves and Sandra Bullock is not available to stream anywhere, but you sure can watch The L Word 503: “Lady of the Lake” on Hulu and listen to the To L and Back episode of 503
As of February 2021, Rose Rollins was set to star in Long Slow Exhale, a drama set in the world of college basketball
The To L and Back episode about the Interrogation Tapes
I’m sure someone at Autostraddle has a favorite article about Rosie’s talk show but here’s an interesting one I just found!
Shane and Tess could have chosen a movie for movie night from this list!
But since they chose Casablanca, here’s Drew’s essay she referenced!
The book that Riese thinks sparked Sophie’s documentary idea
To L and Back episodes for the first appearances of Cobie Smulders, Jamie, and Lisa, respectively, in case you want a refresher
And Autostraddle’s Lisa roundtable, for good measure

Drew: Hi I’m Drew.

Analyssa: And I’m Analyssa.

Riese: And I’m Riese.

Drew: And this is…

Riese, Drew, and Analyssa: To L and Back: Generation Q!

Drew: Edition! Oh wow, Riese didn’t say it that time.

Riese: I know. I didn’t say it because I thought I was going to be alone.

Drew: No, we have your back. We always… For us as lesbians, it’s always important that we take care of each other.

Riese: Also that is fully part of my everyday lexicon now.

Drew: Saying “edition,” or “for us as lesbians”?

Riese: “For us as lesbians,” yeah.

Drew: Great.

Analyssa: I think it’s so fun to take a random phrase that means absolutely nothing and just incorporate it into your vocabulary. My friend group says, “Mr. Police Man, we gave you all the clues” all the time. What an absurd timeline for a movie, so we say it any time someone should have understood what we were talking about. “For us as lesbians,” much more useful in my day-to-day life as lesbians.

Riese: For us as lesbians.

Drew: This episode 204 is called “Lake House” like the film with Sandra Bullock and Keanu Reeves.

Riese: How many lakes were in this episode? I recall zero. Well, I’m sure they did a shot of Echo Park Lake.

Analyssa: I was gonna say, I’m sure Echo Park Lake did get featured, but the houses… Well, we’ll talk about this later. It’s in the woods.

Drew: How close to the lake do you have to be to be a lake house?

Riese: You got to be on the lake.

Analyssa: On the lake.

Riese: You got to be on the lake, yeah.

Drew: Okay. I don’t remember… I actually never saw The Lake House with Keanu Reeves and Sandra Bullock, so I don’t actually know if that lake house was on a lake. I would imagine it was. Please listeners, tell us about that film.

Riese: It for sure was on the lake.

Analyssa: I’ve heard that film is bad. I think the house is on the lake, but as a person of Midwestern experience, I can say that a lake house is on a lake.

Riese: It’s on the lake.

Analyssa: Even if your house is a few blocks away, you’d be near the… A lake house is different. I don’t need to get into the semantics of this.

Riese: I was just going to say that I haven’t seen the movie Lake House, but I did see the episode of the original series where they went to the lake house with Jodi’s friends and threw Bette into the lake.

Analyssa: Right, remember? They could just walk out onto the lake.

Drew: That episode… Bette, God. Speaking of Bette, God, ugh. Well, this episode, first of all, is directed by Sarah Pia Anderson, who has directed so much TV, including an episode of Gilmore Girls and also an episode of Gen Q last season, the third episode. It is written by Thomas Page McBee, who wrote on the Tales of the City reboot and wrote on the first season and is notably The L Word: Generation Q’s only trans writer.

Riese: I want to say before we start that I cried four times during this episode.

Drew: Oh, wow. I wonder if you’ll cry five times in the next episode and subsequently every number of the season. That would be really beautiful.

Riese: Yeah. There were a lot of emotional parts, a lot of opportunities. But as usual, I should say that when I say I cried, what I really mean is I teared up.

Analyssa: I did actually fully cry once, and I teared up one more time. I’m a pretty easy cry, but…

Riese: Me too.

Analyssa: I also… it happened.

Drew: I don’t cry generally because I’m a Capricorn, and also I have an eye condition I found out that makes me not cry—

Riese: Oh yeah, you mentioned that.

Drew: …which we’ve mentioned that, yeah, so I did feel a lot of emotions. I will get into this, but I liked this episode. For us as lesbians, should we get into this episode?

Riese: Yes.

Analyssa: Yes.

Riese: I believe we should. All in favor, say aye.

Analyssa: Aye.

Drew: Aye.

Analyssa: The bill becomes a law. Thank you.

Drew: Like all good episodes of television, it starts with the FBI arresting Dani’s dad, because on TV, rich people constantly are being bothered by the FBI.

Riese: They sure are.

Analyssa: This is just what happens when you get rich in TV. Your days are numbered.

Drew: My main takeaway from this opening was that Gigi rushes in meaning business. She’s like, “What is going on?” I’m just like, once again, much love to Gigi.

Analyssa: Gigi kind of loves a crisis, which makes it very funny that she’s a real estate agent. There are so many more things. Crises are just her passion. They’re not her career. She just wants to be there.

Riese: My hope from this opening scene was, “Oh my God, Dani’s going to be a mess because obviously, and Gigi’s going to manage the fuck out of this situation. They’re going to fall in love. That’s going to be this story of the series.” Believe it or not, it went in a different direction that I didn’t necessarily care for.

Drew: Well, let’s give them time. Much like real life friends, sometimes you have to let them have their mistakes and dalliances before getting to the endgame goals.

Riese: Right, that’s true.

Analyssa: Speaking of endgame goals.

Riese: Nice.

Analyssa: Thank you. Mari and Micah are together again in the next scene.

Drew: They are. Chatting about horses. Really getting a lot of mileage out of the horse convo.

Riese: Remember the horses or monkeys thing? If you’re gay you wanted a monkey, and if you’re straight you wanted a horse?

Drew: Oh, yes.

Analyssa: Oh, yeah.

Riese: Speaking of being straight of being gay, Maribel has a date, and Micah asks if she wants to hang out, and she’s like, “No, I can’t because I have a date with someone who doesn’t deserve me or something, but I could set you up with my coworker Harry.”

Drew: As a double date. It was like, “Oh, we would go out as a double date.” It was like, oh. You could see it in Micah’s eyes. It’s not what he wanted. Then Micah gets a call from Dani’s dad, and it’s like, uh-oh. What’s happening? We know.

Riese: Then we go to Sophie’s house, where she’s got her little computer out and she’s looking at vintage lesbians. This is a pastime I can relate to. This is a great moment for our little Finley because she did a thing and has hopes and dreams.

Analyssa: She’s so fired up!

Riese: She played soccer!

Drew: Yeah, and she says that coaching kids’ sports is her ambition in life, and I think that’s lovely.

Riese: Right. Sophie’s so impressed that she asks Finley out for dinner.

Sophie: Do you want to go out for dinner tonight? I could use something to look forward to after a day of banging my head against the wall.
Finley: Yeah, for sure. You want to go to that sushi place on Hyperion? We can meet on the curb?
Sophie: Yeah, sure.
Finley: Or I could pick it up and I will take a Lyft this time so it doesn’t get warm like last time.
Sophie: No, let’s just meet there at seven.
Finley: Seven, okay, great.

Riese: I was so excited!

Drew: It’s very cute.

Riese: Ugh!

Drew: I’m sorry.

Riese: It’s fine. It’s fine.

Analyssa: I was also excited but immediately thought, “I’m sure this is going to go well for everyone involved. I’m sure this is going to go exactly how we want it to.” Then at Bette’s, Alice has stayed there and is talking about staying up late crying and watching videos that make her cry.

Drew: Okay, but specifically watching videos of soldiers reuniting with their families, but there’s no mention of Tasha.

Riese: This show loves the Army.

Drew: There’s no mention of Tasha! Her second most significant ex. I’m so confused… Look. I think what’s incredible is that I think a lot of the Gen Q writers maybe haven’t seen the original L Word or haven’t watched it since it was on the air, and honestly I love that for them.

Riese: Haven’t seen it 45 times.

Drew: If Thomas has not seen The L Word, the original series since it was on the air, not only am I okay with that, but I am so happy for him and encourage that, and if there’s continuity problems, I don’t care. I support him in this choice, but also let’s stop talking about the Army.

Riese: Yeah. Also, there’s only one good video of a soldier reuniting with their family, and it’s when Tasha arrives home from being whatever. She was deployed and then she got to come back because she was gay, and then she walks into Alice’s house and they take off all their clothes and have sex on the floor.

Analyssa: Maybe that’s what Alice was watching.

Riese: That’s a good video. These other videos, interesting. Interesting. Interesting choice.

Analyssa: You know how medical shows bring a doctor on staff to consult on what’s realistic and what’s not? I think that The L Word: Generation Q should bring on an L Word consultant and it should be one of you two.

Riese: Thank you. I will accept it.

Analyssa: Just like, “What’s realistic in the world of The L Word?”

Riese: Right. They have never mentioned Tasha ever. They didn’t mention Tasha in Gen Q or this.

Drew: Script supervisor Riese Bernard.

Riese: Yeah, I’ll just go through the script and write, “Tasha!” all through it. And what is Rose Rollins doing? She could be that… Oh, she’s doing that basketball series. Anyway, I’m sure she could have taken a minute and been in this. Alice has to kick her mom out of her house, and Shane is like, “I’ll talk to your mom.”

Analyssa: Shane offers to go do it with a little bit of sex maybe.

Alice: Now I have to go tell my mother to get out of my house, and she’s not going to take that well.
Shane: I can talk to Lenore for you if you’d like.
Bette: That’s very generous of you.
Alice: We’re very aware of that, thank you Shane.

Drew: It’s very interesting to remember that callback but not remember Tasha?

Riese: Well, it was in the preview for Season 1 a lot, the Lenore joke from Season 1 of Gen Q, you know?

Drew: That’s true. Meanwhile at The Alice Show, Micah has shown up because Dani is MIA, and because this is a television program, Micah has decided to go to her ex and talk to her about that.

Analyssa: At her place of work!

Drew: Yeah, definitely stretching believability there, but you know what? I’m on board.

Riese: I am not. The moment that this happened — well, first of all, I was like, “Good, hold your ground, Sophie. Dani said she didn’t want to see you. Respect those boundaries.” But then Micah kept pressing, and I was like, “Sophie’s not having sushi with Finley tonight.” In that exact moment, I was like, “Nope. It’s not happening.”

Drew: Yeah.

Riese: In that moment, I felt a little bird die in my soul.

Drew: Think about it this way: In real life, if you have plans to get sushi with someone who you are excited to get sushi with, you can go. You can get sushi. It can be lovely, and then you can go on another date in a few days or in a few weeks or whatever you want, and you can just continue to have happiness and joy. But this is a soap opera, so if they were to have had a good dinner tonight, then the next episode would be a guaranteed disaster. The longer you have to wait for the payoff, the more likely you are to get a good run of Sophie and Finley. It’s just something to keep in mind.

Analyssa: Drew is working on a thesis about the calculus of soap operas or something.

Drew: Yeah, I’m always working on some thesis.

Analyssa: Mathematical formula.

Riese: But you’re right, it’s fine. I can wait. It will happen eventually.

Drew: But I will say it is… Okay, who is Micah? I’m like, “Who are you that you are going to this ex instead of being able to handle the situation yourself?”

Riese: Also who he told to not talk to Dani anymore. Not really explicitly, but he sort of kept being like, “You hurt her.” He’s on Team Dani.

Drew: Yeah. Do you think we maybe missed the rest of the scene when he actually showed up as an excuse to talk about Sophie’s sister, and he’s like, “Anyway, that was the important thing I had to talk to you about, but you think…?”

Analyssa: “More importantly, has Maribel said something about me? I told you something about Dani. Maybe she said something about me?” Yes, I think that is exactly it. Although again, a text message, a call, a drive from West Hollywood to whatever studio The Alice Show was shot on is certainly not the most efficient way to get this done.

Drew: This happens in media all the time, and maybe it happens in real life, and my exes just know me well enough not to do this, but showing up to people’s place of work to have emotional conversations or any sort of personal life thing is not good. I do not recommend doing it. Don’t do it, and definitely don’t do it to me specifically.

Analyssa: One time a girl I hooked up with who happened to work on the same studio lot as I did interoffice mailed me a Christmas card, and I considered moving away forever. I considered walking out, never returning to my job, and never returning to Los Angeles. I can only imagine…

Drew: If it was an in person visit.

Analyssa: Exactly.

Riese: When I didn’t answer my boyfriend’s phone calls, he would just call me at work, and then they would pass it off to me.

Drew: Oh boy.

Riese: Ex-boyfriend.

Analyssa: Thank you for clarifying.

Riese: Yeah, at the time, also, he was an ex-boyfriend. I was like, “Either be my boyfriend or break up with Allie-boo. Break up with Allie-boo and be my boyfriend or don’t be my boyfriend. Don’t keep constant tabs on me and date Allie-boo.”

Drew: Who’s Allie-boo?

Riese: Well, that was her name on AOL. This was quite some time ago.

Analyssa: That was certainly a screen name. I didn’t have a cool screen name. Mine was HippieChick123.

Drew: Mine was SprtsFrk1224, with no vowels. Well, actually, no, “Freek” had two Es. It was S-P-R-T-S-F-R-E-E-K, 1224. 12/24 is my birthday, and that’s the only thing that still makes sense there.

Riese: Mine was RPopTart because raspberry was my favorite flavor of Pop-Tart in 1993.

Drew: You know who wasn’t alive in 1993? Angie and Kayla.

Riese: Nice!

Drew: And that’s who’s in this next scene! Thank you. Angie says that as a kid she wanted to be Snoopy. Kayla says she wanted to be a dancer. It’s some nice sister bonding chatting, and then it starts to pivot into dad convo, and Kayla’s like, “We can talk about it,” and Angie’s like, “Can we? Because I don’t want you to think I’m using you, but also I would love to know something about my dad.”

Riese: She says she’s got something to tell her, and I was like…

Analyssa: My notes say “he’s gay or sick,” immediately.

Drew: The thing about The L Word is that the options are either gay, dying, or arrested.

Analyssa: Right.

Drew: Those are the only things that can happen to people, and we will reveal in a later scene which of the three.

Analyssa: I hilariously really thought… I was like, “He’s going to be gay.” Then I was like, “Why would that be…?”

Drew: That’s the default.

Analyssa: Why would this be such a serious conversation? It took me so long to get over it.

Riese: Maybe she was going to be like, “He lives in Italy in a palace.”

Analyssa: That would have been fun.

Drew: I would love to see some sort of Princess Diaries meets Gen Q moment.

Riese: Yes, absolutely. Get royalty.

Analyssa: What if one time in a TV show someone was like, “I have to tell you something about your relative,” and then—

Riese: “He’s the King of Scotland!”

Analyssa: And then ominous music played, and it was like, “They found out that they’re royalty.”

Riese: Exactly, that’s so nice.

Analyssa: Amazing.

Riese: And now you’re wealthy and in charge of balls.

Analyssa: Speaking of being wealthy. Hey-o! Tess and Shane are planning a bunch of events, and Tess it seems like is crushing. She’s just running the show. Shane can’t do anything without her, so of course then Tess gets a call that is going to take her away from the bar on this busy eve.

Drew: Yeah, she’s driving to Vegas and back in a day, which is very impressive. She’s doing that because her mom lives there, but Shane’s like, “I’m going to come with you. Let’s party!” Shane is crushing hard. Here’s the thing that I really like about Shane is that culturally she has this reputation for being so fuckboy Shane, but part of being a good fuckboy is being very emotional and giving the impression that the other person who can change you and having a real watery energy to you. I really like watching Shane be in love mode because it does feel genuine, and that’s the thing about the people I know who break the most hearts. They’re really not malicious. They really in the moment are like, “I found love, and it’s consuming me.” You’re like, “You think you maybe want to not tell the person until it lasts more than a week? Because this might lead to some heartbreak.” But so far, Shane is just like, “I don’t want to be away from you for the day. I want to come with you.” I’m like, “Who’d be watching the bar if you went with her?” But Shane doesn’t care.

Riese: Maybe she loves Vegas.

Drew: That’s also true.

Riese: She’s like, “Let’s go to the fucking pyramid. Let’s go to the castle. Let’s go to the circus. Let’s go to Paris. Let’s go to New York. We can do all that in one day in fabulous Las Vegas, Nevada.”

Drew: It is a special place.

Analyssa: Then drive back to the bar in time for the event tonight.

Riese: Totally. The one that they’ve also booked Finley for even though Finley also has other plans tonight, which they’re constantly doing. No one’s paying any attention to anybody’s schedule.

Analyssa: Nope, they have three people who work at the bar, first of all. Secondly, they fill out no schedules. They just assume everyone will be there, and then if someone has plans, they go, “Well, I guess that’s fine.” It’s anarchy. It doesn’t make any sense.

Drew: All the lesbians in LA at Dana’s like, “Can I get a fucking drink? Come on!” Which was my experience the one night that the Dana’s party happened because it was packed. That was fun. I miss that. I think it’s coming back.

Riese: Yeah, it was packed. I remember because my friend’s now-ex, we sent her to the bar to get drinks, and she came back with no drinks.

Drew: Yeah, I was standing there for a long time. Honestly though, here’s the thing. I actually love it when there’s a long line at a gay bar because it’s a great… Same with a bathroom line. Some of my best conversations happen when I’m waiting for something. It’s a great place. I also think that LA, having traveled the United States this summer, LA…

Riese: Having been to Ohio.

Drew: Having been to Ohio, I feel like people in LA sort of stay in their groups, and that’s fine, whatever, but I think something that I’ve found at other queer spaces in places that aren’t LA is people are more eager to chat. The one place where people are eager to chat is bathroom line and drink lines.

Riese: Yeah, the gay-ass bathroom line.

Drew: Yeah, gay-ass bathroom line, oh! Incredible.

Riese: I’ve had great conversations there.

Drew: Yeah.

Analyssa: Okay, so then—

Riese: Oh my God!

Analyssa: So then Alice goes back to her house.

Riese: It’s Lenore! They got her back!

Drew: They did get her back.

Riese: Lenore is back!

Analyssa: They did get her back.

Drew: Who’s that actress? I didn’t do that research.

Riese: Oh, her name is Anne Archer. Anne Archer plays Lenore Pieszecki.

Drew: Has she been acting since? What’s she been up to?

Riese: Yeah, she’s just in The Dropout, a TV miniseries that’s in post-production. She was in an order of Drew’s favorite show SVU. She’s in the TV show Privilege. Looks like she’s been working maybe one thing a year maybe, at most.

Drew: And now here she is! Here she is in a multilevel marketing scheme.

Riese: Yeah, of course. That makes perfect sense. Of course. Of course.

Drew: It’s funny because for the longest time whenever I would see MLM to mean “men loving men,” I would always think, “multilevel marketing scheme,” but now that I see in my notes, “Alice’s mom is in an MLM,” I’m like, “Good for you, Lenore! I’m glad you found yourself!”

Riese: And little do you know, it’s really just about oils.

Drew: Yeah. It always is. Well, that can be an important part of an MLM relationship as well.

Lenore: If you’re referring to my small business.
Alice: You mean your scam?
Lenore: It’s for multi-level marketing company.
Alice: Potayto, potahto.
Lenore: You will be pleased to know that you are looking at Swan’s Breaths Cosmetics’ platinum salesperson.
Alice: (Sigh) Fuck me.

Riese: And Alice is like, “You need to move out, because I broke up with Nat and I bought you an entire apartment in Brentwood with a room for all your crystals,” or whatever that she’s selling.

Drew: Yeah.

Riese: And her mom’s like “No, you need me, and I’m staying.” Alice… I mean the wealth, honestly.

Drew: I mean, but she’s like a fucking talk show host of course she has that kind of money.

Riese: Right. That’s true.

Drew: I mean, it seems like it’d be really nice to be able to deal with your problems that way.

Riese: Right? Like if you broke up with someone and then you’re like, “Okay, I bought a new apartment. Bye.” Instead of being like, “Well, I guess we’re going to cohabitate for three more months.”

Analyssa: “I guess we have to live together until the lease expires. And then I’m going to have to move into a smaller apartment that costs more, that’s farther away from where I want to be. Cool, cool, cool, cool.”

Riese: “Or I’m going to have to have my new girlfriend move in to where I live with my old girlfriend, because we can’t find any other apartments that are cheap because the rent has gone up so high since we got this one.”

Analyssa: It’d be nice to be really, really rich, I think.

Drew: Yeah. We need to get on that.

Riese: Yeah, I think about that every day.

Analyssa: One of us should host a talk show. I hear that’s a quick pass to fame and fortune.

Riese: You know, they offered Rosie — she was done with her show and they were like, “We’ll give you $50 million to do one more season.” And she was like, “No.” And they’re like, “You can’t turn that down.” They were offering her like $80 million. She was like, “I have more money than I could ever spend in my lifetime already. I don’t want to do the show. Stop.”

Drew: Good for Rosie.

Riese: And she didn’t and she stopped. Anyway, I don’t think that you’re offering that to Alose though. They almost canceled her last year.

Drew: They did.

Analyssa: I was going to say, The Alose Show does not have that level of cultural impact at this point, I think.

Drew: Speaking of rich people who have cultural impact, Shane is talking to Angie.

Riese: This is cute! Oh, this is my first cry. This was my first cry.

Analyssa: This is really cute.

Drew: So the reveal is that Marcus Allenwood is dying.

Riese: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Drew: And so I don’t understand what’s with killing all so many people. And I also specifically think that it’s worth noting that it’s the show killing another Black person, after killing Kit offscreen in between the seasons.

Riese: And her dad.

Drew: Yeah. It just is like, okay.

Riese: Yeah, he could have just been gay.

Drew: He could’ve just been gay.

Riese: As predicted. He could have been involved in a multi-level marketing scheme. He could be doing workout videos. He could be…

Analyssa: Running an underground poker game for lesbians.

Riese: Running an underground poker game for lesbians.

Drew: Yeah. So, but Angie is just trying to decide if she should meet him before he dies. And Shane doesn’t know, which is honest and nice and sweet. And then she talks about her own dad. It’s a very emotional, emotional, emotional scene. The only thing that I had an issue with was that Shane was like, “Talk to Jordie.” And she was like, “Jordie is running for prom queen, so her life’s on a different page or something.” And I’m just like, why couldn’t it be, Jordie doesn’t like her parents, so she doesn’t understand or whatever, or something that just reveals a little bit more about Jordie, except that she’s a shitty — I mean, look, she’s a high schooler so she can be a shitty girlfriend, but I just like, everything we’ve seen so far, even like last episode, two episodes ago, when Jordie was like, “Oh my God, I want to go with you to like, meet your dad, meet your sister.” I just am like, why? I don’t know. That just felt like a weird throwaway line since we don’t get that much time with Jordie, just like economically speaking, could have revealed more about who she is as a person and their relationship, but you know what? It’s fine. Angie wants to see a therapist.

Riese: I thought it was nice, because we talk a lot about how they pretend like the original series is never brought up. And I think this is the first time that she’s ever brought up Carmen and says that meeting her father reinforced the worst parts of her and she made a really poor decision, and that she would have been better off had she never met him. Although then she never would have had the pleasure of raising little Shay and introducing him to milkshakes and skateboarding and breaking his arm.

Drew: That was such a powerful relationship. Really, that brief moment where Shane was just going to be a dad.

Riese: Shane was finally daddy. And now Shane doesn’t want kids anymore.

Analyssa: Just this dog that she found. When Lenore arrived, and I was like, oh, that’s fun, they brought her back. And then she was just like the first horseman of the ghost L Word past. Everyone’s like, “Okay, so remember how there’s an original series?” after Lenore, which I thought was very funny.

Riese: Yeah.

Drew: Yeah.

Analyssa: I loved it. Loved to see it, but it was just like the one-two of Lenore. And then Shane being like, “Oh yeah, and I left someone at the altar.” I was like, yeah.

Riese: Yeah.

Drew: I want to find about Tina’s parents at some point, which is wild that I’m asking for more Tina screen time. But it’s amazing what Carrie coming to the show will do to you. But I am like, are we ever going to find anything about that? Maybe not.

Riese: Well, we did in the interrogation tapes.

Drew: Those aren’t canon.

Riese: I know they’re not canon.

Drew: I refuse to acknowledge those as canon.

Riese: That’s what Carly and I realized. Obviously I bitched about Tina not having parents for six seasons of television. And then the interrogation tapes, she invented this bananas, totally banana’s family history.

Drew: Yeah.

Riese: It was wild.

Drew: Truly wild. So speaking of things that are wild, Sophie goes to Dani’s not-lake lake house, which I’m still like—

Analyssa: The secondary manor.

Drew: Yeah, I’m still just like, why is this Sophie’s problem? Why is this Sophie’s problem? Dani and Sophie immediately started fighting, which I did really like, because I don’t know. It feels very truthful to me of this thing where you’re like, okay, I’m going to go, it’s going be fine, we’re going to be mature, whatever. And then you immediately fall into bickering.

Riese: Mm-hmm (affirmative). She’s like, “You can’t even give me space, but I run away to the woods.”

Drew: Yeah. But Sophie comes in to pee.

Riese: Then I know where it’s doomed.

Drew: Yeah. But here’s the thing, is that Sophie did not drive all the way to that lake house, not to have sex with Dani. Like she maybe didn’t know that’s what she was doing. Maybe in her head, she was not doing that, maybe she was doing something noble. But I think in a year, when Sophie looks back on this moment, she’s going to go, “Yeah, I knew what I was doing.”

Riese: Is it a lake house though? I think it’s a castle.

Drew: No, it’s not-lake lake house.

Riese: It’s a mini castle.

Analyssa: It’s a manor in the woods.

Drew: Yeah.

Riese: Maybe they have a pond? Maybe they have a private lake.

Drew: I’d live there.

Riese: Yeah.

Drew: Okay. So…

Riese: Speaking of Sophie.

Drew: Yeah, someone who doesn’t know what’s happening in Sophie’s life right now is Finley, who’s buying flowers for Sophie with Micah, and Micah is a little bit like, uhhh…

Analyssa: She has a new blazer!

Drew: Micah’s concerned. And Micah should be concerned. We’re all concerned.

Riese: She’s volunteering. But here’s the thing, it happens in this episode, it happened in the last episode. And I will admit it happens in the next episode as well. People are constantly telling Sophie or Finley things like, oh, she asked for space and she asked for space, or like, she didn’t ask for space. Or she told you — People are constantly giving each of them different alleged requests from the other person. Like did Sophie ask Finley for space?

Drew: She did a few weeks ago, but they’ve moved past that.

Riese: Right.

Drew: She did ask for time.

Riese: Yeah. She asked for time before she could talk about her feelings.

Drew: But then, she also asked for sushi, so…

Riese: And she also asked Finley to stay in the house.

Drew: She did.

Riese: And also Sinley forever.

Drew: She also asked her to have sex with her, with her energy.

Riese: Yeah. She gave her… secretly in the head, mind melt.

Drew: There’s vibes. Not strong enough vibes that there don’t need to still be some conversations before it happens. But there’s definitely some vibes.

Riese: Yep.

Drew: Speaking of vibes, Bette is on a journey to meet Pippa.

Riese: In Topanga.

Drew: Yes. Which they make seem like that is truly, if someone didn’t know LA, they would think that that was — that Bette had been driving for hours.

Riese: Wait, how far is that?

Drew: Topanga? It’s nothing.

Riese: Oh really?

Drew: Yeah, sure. I mean, it depends where you’re coming from, but it’s just like another way to go over the hill from the valley. The other thing about Topanga is that I think when you go to homes there, you’re like, this is beautiful. But driving there you’re like, oh my God, if I lived here, to go to the grocery store, it would be such a fucking pain in the ass. But Pippa wants to be secluded. So Topanga is a great choice for her to be living.

Riese: Her house is like, off the set of Once Upon A Time.

Drew: Yeah. It’s really something. What I’m wondering is this whole time that this happening, I’m like, has Bette called Gigi? Have they worked out any of their past problems? And the answer, I think, is no. But Pippa’s hot and Bette is obsessed and Bette is pushy. She’s just going to keep hanging around. Speaking of tops who don’t know how to take no for an answer, Dani calls Micah to let him know that she’s okay, she’s talking to Sophie about how she’s pretty sure her dad did something really bad, which is like, uh, duh. And Sophie’s like…

Sophie: I’m always going to be here for you, whether you want me or not.

Drew: And then what happens?

Riese: Bang, bang, bang.

Drew: What happens? Ex-sex.

Riese: Ex-sex.

Drew: The 11th best kind of sex.

Analyssa: Well you knew it was going to happen.

Riese: We did. Yeah. We knew it was going to happen.

Analyssa: You put it at 11th?

Drew: You put it higher?

Analyssa: I would put it higher. I’m sick in the head though.

Riese: Ex-sex is pretty good. Because it’s dramatic.

Drew: I never had sex with my last ex and I did have sex with my first serious ex, after the fact. And there was some good drama there, but it’s still, it’s nah.

Analyssa: Look, there’s the drama. It feels as sort of exciting as a new experience because you’ve ended one phase, and now it’s like, ooh. It’s not the same as when you were together or seeing each other or whatever. But it has all the comfort and knowledge of knowing someone already.

Drew: Right. That makes sense.

Analyssa: So you’re not fumbling through it. Anyway, I don’t know that I’d put it much higher than 11, but 11 seems low to me.

Drew: You seem like eighth or maybe seventh.

Analyssa: Yeah, I think seventh is probably around.

Drew: Yeah. I will say that they make a compelling case for…

Analyssa: All of my points come true here. You can see it in action.

Drew: Yeah. As a fellow Sinley shipper, maybe not as intensely as Riese, this isn’t what I wanted to happen. But as I was watching it, I was like, feel bad for Finley, feel good for me. And you know, it is what it is. Sophie stops mid-fuck and is like, “We shouldn’t be doing this.” And Dani’s like, “Touch me.” And then that’s what happens. So…

Riese: I actually thought it was going to end there.

Analyssa: I did too.

Riese: Because she seemed pretty insistent.

Drew: Yeah. It’s interesting to compare both this and also the Sophie Finley sex scene that stops before it continues to some of the original show sex scenes, where I feel like you on To L and Back, the original, talked a lot about some of the ways that the show didn’t handle consent well. And I feel like in Gen Q, it feels like it’s handled a lot better. Like it’s maybe a little bit messy, definitely complicated, but it feels a lot clearer in the sense that I feel like the creators of the show know what the intention is. Even if something’s a little bit messy or a little bit, whatever. I feel like they’re on the same page. Whereas in the original show, sometimes there’d be sex scenes where someone would ask to stop, and I’d be like, oh, this feels like they really should stop and it feels like the creators don’t realize that. And so, I mean, I’ve already talked about how much I think the sex scenes are really a real standout of Gen Q, but this felt like the sort of thing where Sophie later might be, complicated about it, but not in a way where, I don’t know, in my opinion that it feels like I crossed the line into being like, ah, what did they do? You know what I mean?

Riese: Marja, when I interviewed her, talked about how they wanted to be really clear about consent. And she was saying one of the first scenes of the first series, they were having Finley hit on people and fail, and that it was important that they showed Finley being like, okay. Finley always says, she says “copy that” all the time, which I think is because Marja says that all the time maybe. I’m not sure.

Drew: Wait, is Finley a stand-in for Marja?

Riese: But when some of them was like, “No,” she’s like, “Copy that,” and like moved on to the next person just to show like, yes, this is a series where people take no for an answer.

Drew: It’s not something we talk about in queer community enough. We have this idea that it doesn’t affect us. And it’s just obviously not true, and so I appreciate that.

Riese: Yeah.

Drew: I don’t know how to have a transition to this next theme, but um…

Riese: Angie’s on the prowl for a therapist.

Analyssa: She’s making moves immediately. She’s like, we got to get this done.

Riese: Yeah.

Drew: I love that.

Analyssa: And Micah finds her in the lobby of his building and she’s like, “I need someone to talk to.” And he’s like, “Okay, we’ll make you an appointment.” She’s like, “No, now.” And he says that he has a few minutes, even though he has plans with Maribel.

Drew: Yeah. Is this a conflict of interest or do they have enough remove?

Analyssa: I was like, this feels a little bit invasive, but the kid needs to talk to someone now so…

Riese: Yeah.

Drew: Yeah. It’s fine. I was like, I don’t know, seems okay. Like your mom’s former employee is my friend. Like that does feel like there’s enough of a remove.

Riese: Yeah. Well, and also I think Angie’s drama is going to be so separate from the people that Micah is connected to, because she’s a teenager and somehow the most emotionally mature person on the show.

Drew: Yeah. I love connecting Micah also more into the main — I think this was a really smart move. Even if it is a minor conflict of interest, I’m like, let’s conflict.

Riese: Yeah. Because also we get to see him work, you know?

Drew: Yeah, totally. So speaking of people who are at work, Bette is hanging out in the dark outside Pippa’s. Bette’s a full fan girl.

Riese: Yeah. She’s like, “You changed me on a molecular level.” I’m like, Bette, dial it back.

Drew: Yeah.

Analyssa: And lists every show that she’s seen of Pippa’s, which is all of them, it turns out.

Drew: Yeah.

Riese: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Doesn’t she always says this to artists though. I don’t think she — I feel like she’s been like, “I wrote my senior thesis about you” to 75 different artists.

Drew: Her senior thesis was really long.

Riese: Yeah.

Drew: I love seeing Bette in this mode. Because I just like always love when the power dynamic with Bette is like where she is, and I’m glad that that’s where this whole season’s going. Like first Gigi, now Pippa. I love when Bette has taken off her, I don’t know, when she’s not the one in control. Pippa does let Bette in and asks if she needs smelling salts. And honestly, I think she does.

Riese: She is enthralled.

Analyssa: She’s so overwhelmed by this workshop area.

Drew: Yeah.

Riese: Yeah. This art cave, where I guess Pippa’s just been making art for herself?

Drew: Yeah, I guess so. Well she is showing, she’s just showing anonymously, I guess?

Analyssa: And in really small galleries, I think is the point.

Drew: Yeah.

Analyssa: But she is very aware of Bette’s game, which Drew said this sort of, but she’s like:

Pippa: I will not be manipulated by you.

Analyssa: Good for her.

Drew: Yeah.

Analyssa: For someone who’s been in the woods of Topanga for decades, good for her. She reads this situation immediately.

Drew: Speaking of someone who’s not as straightforward. Okay. So Sophie, I realized what her problem is, is that she is incapable of not lying. And look, it’s an L Word tradition, but maybe Sophie and Bette need to have some hangouts and talk about what it’s like to not lie. Because here’s the thing, is that Sophie, what does she think? Like this is what’s fascinating about people who lie. Because I’m a terrible liar, I can’t get away with it, so I don’t really do it. But I just am like, you’re going to get caught.

Riese: Right.

Drew: Most people who lie get caught when you’re in this incestuous gay friend group. In what world is Finley never going to find out where you were? In what world? Just say on the phone, “Dani is going through this crisis. I’m here. It’s so complicated. Can I please have a rain check?” And then it’s like, “Oh, you’re with your…” Like, you know, the energy is like, “Oh I’m with my nightmare ex,” even who gives Finley feelings. You don’t have to be like, “We’re fucking right now.” But the lying is just like, you’re going to get caught.

Riese: Yeah.

Drew: But morals aside, like you’re going to get caught.

Riese: Right.

Drew: And then there’s the moral side of it. But like, I just like, come on Sophie.

Riese: Yeah. I also like, so first I was so relieved that she called and canceled, because I was like, I cannot handle a scene of Finley sitting in the fucking sushi restaurant waiting and her not showing up, which is what I was emotionally steeling myself for, because I hate that trope so much. Like it’s just so sad and it’s also so unnecessary, because it’s not that hard to just call or text and cancel. So I was like, at least she’s calling, so I can be personally spared Finley looking at her watch, looking at the food, getting the check, being like, “Well, I guess she’s not coming.” You know what I’m talking about? We’ve seen this a million times.

Analyssa: Yeah, sending texts that go on answered.

Riese: Exactly. Right. Like, “Hey you coming, you coming?” Question mark. Question mark. Question mark.

Analyssa: “I’m here. I have a table.”

Riese: Right. Yeah. “I’m here. Errr, okay, well I guess I’m going to go.” And then I wrote immediately, “For sure, Micah is going to blow her cover.” Micah lives in a house with Finley and you just had Dani call Micah to tell her where she was. Also, I know that Finley is supposed to be an idiot or whatever, but Dani has that house in Ojai, that’s where they were going to go for their honeymoon. It would not be that hard. Either she’s at A Camp, or she’s seeing Dani.

Drew: So either way, she’s having sex with someone who isn’t Finley.

Riese: Right. Exactly. But at least she did a rain check. So I was like, all right, at least she’s not like going full on. I had no critical eye on this, I’m just fully judging this as a fan of this relationship. I was like, okay, so she’s not deciding that she’s going to be with Dani. You know?

Drew: Yeah.

Analyssa: But then she goes and gets right back into bed with Dani.

Drew: Yeah.

Analyssa: Which is tough.

Riese: Yeah.

Drew: You hate to see it? Or you love to see it?

Riese: Drew loves to see it.

Drew: No, I’m with you. This is what I’m watching The L Word for it. This is the kind of chaos and drama I want.

Riese: Right.

Analyssa: This is what you want to be mad about, is Sophie making a bad decision and lying when she shouldn’t have?

Drew: Right, yeah, that’s the fun stuff. So Angie tells Bette that she saw a therapist, which is something that maybe Sophie should do also. That’s what we call a reverse transition. And then Angie asks Bette to come to therapy alongside Tina and Carrie. Angie is carrying this family. She is doing so much to try to make them help and communicate. And she is a full child and you know what? It makes me have a lot of feelings and that’s all I’m going to say about that.

Riese: Yeah. Wow. What teenager is like, “I’ve secured a therapist for a family counseling session.” No, you’re like, “Mom, I want to meet my dad!” That’s what you do. And then you storm out. Not Angie. She’s emotionally mature. Sorry for yelling, Carol.

Drew: Yeah. Someone who isn’t emotionally mature, Alice is talking to Tom. Tom asks Alice if Bette is still dating Alice’s ex’s ex-wife. And I really enjoyed that. And also Alice knows that Tom has a good memory for gossip, which makes me further proof that these two are going to get together.

Riese: You know what’s interesting about that?

Drew: What?

Riese: It’s that I think in the original series, if Alice had gotten together with her male book editor, it would have been like, “Oh, why isn’t she dating a woman?” But now there’s so many lesbian couples on TV that I really want Alice to date her editor.

Drew: Yeah.

Analyssa: Yeah. At first, when he first showed up and they were kind of quipping back and forth, I was anti for one scene. And then I was like, “Actually, this could be fun for her. I hope she does!”

Riese: Yeah.

Drew: I mean, also, not that I think Gen Q should exist to make up for the sins of the original show, and I think actually when it tries to do that too directly, it makes the show bad and creates new sins, but I do think that just from a place of realism, putting aside that the original show was biphobic, this is what queer women community looks like. People are not all lesbians. Actually I’d say the majority of my queer women community aren’t lesbians, maybe aren’t even women. It’s just, it’s so much messier and there’s so many more identities and experiences, and Alice is canonically bisexual. There’s no reason why she should exclusively be hooking up with people who are cis women. I mean, it’d be great to have instead of some cis dude to have lots of other people, but I’ll take it. I’ll take a cis dude. I feel the same way I do when a bisexual friend of mine starts dating a cis dude, especially a straight one, and I’m like, “You know what? He’s nice. He’s good. I support it. And I can’t wait to hang out and he can come to all the parties,” but, and that’s how I do. This guy who wants to have good breath, even though he gets juicy fruit? No one’s perfect.

Riese: Speaking of the sins of the original series, this is the scene during which I shed a full tear.

Analyssa: This was a full cry for me.

Riese: He says that the one chapter they haven’t revisited is the Dana chapter, and of course she’s like, “I don’t want to do that.” And then he opens up about his brother dying when he was young. And then she started talking about Dana. I’m going to cry just thinking about it. It was so, I don’t know. Because it’s also, they never talk about Dana as we all have done.

Analyssa: Yeah. And this is a really… It does not make up for them never talking about Dana, a friend who they loved and who died way too young, but it kind of eulogizes her in the show. It gives her sort of this moment of importance that I don’t think we’ve really seen. I thought it was really lovely.

Drew: And it justifies the lack of conversation around her by making it out to be like a defense mechanism for Alice that she doesn’t want to talk about it because it’s too painful. And that, I think, is a really smart move given what has been established so far. And yeah, I thought it was… I really liked this. I thought it was really well done.

Riese: Yeah.

Alice: I see her when my eyes are closed, but I also see her when my eyes are open. I can hear her laugh. I smell her smell. I can feel her. And I miss her so much sometimes, the emptiness is like… But there’s nothing I can do about it because she’s gone, and I do not want to dwell on the fact that she was taken from me and robbed of a life because of some fucking disease. Okay. I don’t want to do it, Tom. Okay?

Analyssa: When Alice was like, “I see her when my eyes are closed and when my eyes are open,” that really wrecked me. I’m thinking about it again and just sad.

Riese: I know. I started crying immediately.

Analyssa: It sounds like they’re going to get a good chapter out of it though.

Riese: Yeah. I can’t wait to read the book.

Drew: Yeah.

Analyssa: Tom makes a joke about Alice’s speech being like-

Tom: You think maybe you could say that again, but maybe just a little bit slower so I could jot it down. I know.
Alice: Oh my god, you’re the worst.
Tom: I know.

Analyssa: That broke the moment too in a really nice way. He wants goss, but he’s also supportive.

Riese: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah.

Drew: Speaking of supportive men, Micah is on his double date and Maribel’s like, “How’s it going?” And he’s like, “Yeah, I’m not really feeling it.” And he is like, “because I’m actually into women as well,” which I was a little confused by because I was like, what is that? Why is that? What does that have to do with what your feelings are about this guy? I just feel like this is the sort of thing that just feels like who’s the audience of this? Because if you want to get like real queer what this could be, it so easily could have been like, “I’ve realized that I’m into women as well and I think I want to sort of focus on that and focused on exploring that side of myself.” Just say that. Just say that he wants to focus on exploring that side of himself. That makes total sense, and it’s totally—

Riese: Like it’s an identity that he needs to explore?

Drew: Yeah. That’s a thing that people talk about. Yeah.

Riese: I thought he was bisexual this whole time.

Drew: I thought he was too. That’s the other thing, I don’t know why it has to be a thing.

Riese: Yeah. I understood him saying this because it felt like this would be the kind of way that Micah, who does not know how to talk about having feelings, would come around to talking about his feelings.

Drew: That makes sense.

Riese: Yeah.

Analyssa: This is what I was just about to say, is the way that I read it, and Drew your read is actually smarter, but the way that I took it was when I was in high school and early college, sometimes the game would be like, “Haha, I have a crush,” and a person will be like, “Oh, on who?” And you’re like, “Oh, nobody you know, don’t even worry about it.” That is sort of in the universe of what it felt like Micah was saying, “I like women,” wink, wink, and Mari’s like, “Oh also I have a girl.” And Micah’s like, “Oh, that’s not quite what I wanted to pull you towards.”

Drew: Yeah. I actually like that explanation more because that makes more sense. Micah has been bisexual, but is awkwardly coming out. Actually that justifies it. I actually really like that. That makes so much more sense than this is something that he’s exploring. I much prefer that. Sometimes people aren’t exploring things.

Analyssa: A win for teenage Annalysa.

Drew: Yeah. This reminded me of the time that I had asked my sister, before my first middle school dance, “How do I ask a girl to dance?” And my sister was like, “Ask her to teach you how to dance and then she’s going to teach you how to dance, and then all of a sudden you’re dancing and you’ve done it.” And I was like, “Okay.” And so I asked my crush to teach me how to slow dance, and so she turned towards our other friend and showed on this other girl, showed how to slow dance. And then it was like, and the songs playing it’s probably “A Moment Like This” by Kelly Clarkson. And then is like, “And now go ask someone,” and I just stood there and stared. I so easily could have pivoted to be cool and been like, “How about you? Do you want to dance?” And instead I just stood there, not saying a word until the song ended. And that was my… But that person ended up being my first girlfriend. And also it’s the origin story for why I love direct communication because what I should’ve done is just said, “Hey Courtney, do you want to dance?”

Riese: Yeah. Could have been like, “Some people wait a lifetime for a moment like this, in which I would ask you to date. Dance.”

Drew: Yeah.

Riese: Dancing is a prerequisite, I guess, to dating.

Drew: Yeah.

Analyssa: So that’s what I feel like Micah was doing, was asking Mari to teach him how to dance.

Riese: Then her Lyft came, and once again, my desires have been thwarted on this program, this episode.

Drew: By a Lyft.

Riese: By a Lyft.

Analyssa: This was the moment where I was like, my notes say Riese has manifested. This, I was like, oh, I felt like my brain instantly was like, oh, we’re cooking with gas now. Sort of the way that Drew was like, if Sophie and Finley went on a date that would have been meant bad stuff later. I was like, if Mari is going to set Micah up with another woman, I think we’re in.

Riese: Yeah. Yeah. We’re in. We’re in. It’s happening. At least we know from this scene, absolutely, he has a crush. We know that.

Drew: Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah.

Analyssa: Speaking of crushes, Bette and Pippa are at a very fancy dinner.

Drew: Uh-huh (affirmative). I’m obsessed with this scene.

Riese: I’m sure, I was like, “This is for Drew.” I was like, “Drew is going to love this.”

Drew: Just two powerful women discussing how to navigate the art world and what you do with how you navigate shitty bosses and what’s strategic versus what’s selling out. This is great. I love it. I love every minute of it.

Riese: Who tells who that she’s the most beautiful… Oh, Bette tells…

Analyssa: Bette tells Pippa that she’s the most beautiful woman she’s ever seen.

Drew: No, but before that Pippa says to Bette—

Pippa: It’s nice talking to someone as smart as you.
Bette: Likewise.
Pippa: And as beautiful. You know you’re beautiful, of course. How could you not know? So I think it’s okay to mention it.

Drew: It’s so good because it’s not Pippa being like, “I think you’re beautiful.” It’s being like, “I’m naming something that’s basic and I honestly couldn’t care less.” And also like… But then yeah, then Bette’s like, “You’re the most beautiful woman I’ve ever seen.”

Riese: Good Jodi energy where Pippa is topping this conversation and Bette is just running to keep up.

Drew: Yeah. Oh my God. And so then when she’s leaving Bette grabs her hand and Pippa says—

Pippa: Don’t touch me like this… unless you’re coming home with me.

Riese: My note here is, “Everyone is really horny on this show.”

Drew: I love how horny everyone is. It’s the representation I need. There’s not a lot of great trans representation, but there’s great horny representation. Great top for top representation. Great horny representation.

Analyssa: Forward representation. People are always just saying stuff.

Riese: Yeah. They’re shooting their shot on this show.

Analyssa: Yeah.

Drew: Yeah.

Riese: And oh, and also she basically, Bette’s trying to get Pippa to be in the gallery and she’s refusing.

Drew: Yeah. That’s the meat of the…

Analyssa: Pippa keeps saying that she can’t or won’t work with Bette, but you know what? I bet she might kiss her. She could do that.

Riese: Yeah. I think she’s going to show.

Drew: Zakarian doesn’t have to be there for the kissing. Zakarian has no involvement.

Analyssa: The good thing about Zakarian is this dinner was on him.

Drew: That is true.

Analyssa: Thank you, sir, for your service.

Drew: And that’s strategic.

Riese: I hope she expensed her gas to Topanga.

Analyssa: I hope so. Yeah. You could expense gas and mileage. That’d be great.

Riese: And then…

Drew: Okay, so I love this.

Riese: Justice for Gigi.

Analyssa: Justice for Gigi.

Drew: So, I mean, just so yeah. So Bette’s horny because of Pippa so goes home, fucks Gigi.

Analyssa: Just a normal, get it out of your system kind of fuck.

Drew: But Bette’s so over it. It’s a mess. It is not the hotness of the original, but it’s a very good sex scene as far as dynamics go. I really, I don’t think a sex scene needs to tell a story, sometimes it can just be hot, but this tells a story.

Analyssa: This one was telling you a story.

Riese: Yeah, I do wish that we got just maybe one scene of Bette talking about Gigi to a third party. Because I’ve decided in my head that she just doesn’t want to be alone, basically, and Gigi’s hot and she’s just kind of doing it. She knows she doesn’t have strong feelings, but she’s just basically filling space.

Analyssa: Right. And they both can bring up the physical passion. They’re both good at, as we said, kissing each other. So why not do it?

Drew: Yeah.

Riese: But Gigi just got on so well with Dani that at this point, I’m just like, that’s where all my cards are.

Drew: Sophie, Finley, Dani, Gigi, Bette, Pippa, Tess, Shane, Micah, Maribel.

Riese: Perfect. Utopia. Oh, Tina and Carrie.

Drew: Yeah. But that’s a given. I mean, I know it’s not a given for the Bettina shippers out there who think that that’s still happening, and maybe this is naive of me, but I’m really not worried about Tina cheating on Carrie.

Analyssa: How could you cheat on perfect angel, Rosie O’Donnell?

Drew: I mean, maybe that’s where they’re going with it, but that’d be such a bummer. I miss her. Where’s Carrie? Why isn’t Carrie in this episode?

Analyssa: Okay. Speaking of happy pairings and cute little couples, Shane has set up a projector for a movie night outside of Tess’s. Shane is in deep right now. I don’t know if Shane knows that Shane is in deep, but as an objective, as I can be, third-party I was like, whoa.

Drew: I get it. If Jamie Clayton was gay, I’d be in love with her.

Analyssa: I was going to say, I feel that way when Jamie Clayton’s on screen too. Sure.

Riese: I have a cinema question. Is it true, I thought this was true, but I’m not sure. Because I remember, I’m a person, I’ve watched TV for a long time, and I’m like, God, why are there so many characters on TV, including literal teenagers, who are like, “I love classic films from the ’20s.” It’s because they can get the rights to those easier than films that these characters might actually be watching, right?

Drew: That makes sense. I’ve never thought about that because I’m this. So I’m always like, “Yes, this is what we do.”

Riese: Of course everyone loves Casablanca.

Analyssa: I think there’s probably two things. Number one, the rights. Because they’re older, they’re closer to not a common domain because that doesn’t really exist in movies, but like that. And also because they’re the ones that have sort of endured, you have a reference for what Casablanca is, versus something a little more recent, you might run the risk of people being like, “What the fuck is that?”

Riese: But I do feel like people would know what Pretty Woman is, or they would know what Ghostbusters is, but you never see that.

Drew: I would have loved if they had shown Desert Hearts.

Riese: Yeah, Desert Hearts or But I’m a Cheerleader.

Drew: Especially because you have this audience of lesbians watching this, it would have been a great opportunity to show… To advertise for… I mean, Desert Hearts is in The Miseducation of Cameron Post. Yes. Why aren’t they just watching Suicide Kale? Can you imagine? That’d be wild. That’d be great. I think they should. They should have done that. I have two notes about this. One, Kate Moennig was in the gay live read of Casablanca. That was like the first thing I went to when I moved to LA, and was the beginning of one of the first pieces I wrote for Autostraddle was about going to that. Fun fact. And the second thing is that it bothered me so much that when the projector turns on, it’s the climax of Casablanca and not the opening. I was like, I mean, I guess it’s just Shane doesn’t know how to use the projector, and obviously they wanted it to be a memorable… I get it. But I was like, what? No, this isn’t the opening credits of Casablanca. This is the climax of Casablanca. Come on. That bothered me. I didn’t even think about why would they be watching Casablanca? Because why wouldn’t you want to watch Casablanca?

Riese: Every time someone comes home from… And they find someone on the couch, they’re like, oh yeah, you know, I really love these gangster movies from the ’50s. And it’s like, do you? You’re 17. You’re born in 2005.

Drew: That’s fair. My favorite movie when I was 17 was The Red Shoes. 1948.

Riese: Mine was The Breakfast Club.

Analyssa: My favorite movie when I was 17 was probably still Juno.

Drew: Solid.

Riese: Classic trans cinema.

Drew: So basically what’s happening in this scene. Well, so Tessa’s mom isn’t doing well. And so she and Shane are sitting in these lawn chairs and talking about serious things and Shane loves some vulnerability coming at her, not necessarily sharing it herself. And then Shane kisses her, Tess pulls away and says, “Sorry, I’m seeing someone.”

Riese: What?!

Analyssa: The drama of it all.

Riese: Sorry, Carol.

Drew: Yeah. Yeah. But here’s the thing about when people are seeing someone, they can quickly stop seeing someone and start seeing you instead.

Riese: Yeah, you can do that.

Analyssa: Things can change so fast.

Drew: Yeah. So Dani and Sophie are still in bed. Dani says that she thought that they would grow old in this house.

Riese: In Ojai surrounded by the citizens of Ojai?

Drew: Yeah. Dani talks about being career-driven and Sophie, we learn that Sophie wanted to make a documentary about lesbians in Buffalo in the ’40s and ’50s, which is cool.

Riese: It’s probably, you know that book, Boots of Leather, Slippers of Gold? It’s about lesbian communities in Buffalo in the ’40s and ’50s.

Drew: Cool. I haven’t read that.

Analyssa: Oh that’s cool.

Riese: That’s why I was like, oh, she read that book. It’s mostly, it’s about butch-femme dynamics and stuff. And sort of these working class — because obviously in the ’40s, a lot of lesbians were able to get jobs finally because of the war and that’s where they also met other lesbians and they formed these communities and then it was the ’50s and everyone was really conservative and they had to figure out how to live. So it’s about one of those communities.

Drew: Yeah. There’s like a little of that in Stone Butch Blues.

Riese: Yeah. And Dani asked who Sophie was talking to earlier and reminds her that she’s a bad liar, and I’m like, “Is she? She kind of lied to you for several months.”

Analyssa: That’s true.

Drew: Dani knew.

Riese: You think? Oh right. Your theory. I think your theory is solid now.

Drew: Dani knew something was wrong. Dani didn’t know that she had had sex at Finley, but I think Dani probably thought that Sophie was having doubts because of the fighting they’d had. I really liked this as… Especially after having just watched Sophie lie, having Dani… Because it also shows that it can be really hard sometimes when you are breaking up with someone and there’s someone new who is exciting and you have chemistry with and whatever, but they don’t know you the way… I mean, it’s a little bit different because Finley and Sophie are such good friends, but it’s still — this for me was Dani being like, “I know you better than Finley knows you,” which is probably true and painful to watch because it should be the end.

Riese: I thought this was so realistic. This felt so authentic. Yeah, they’ve been banging and it was great, but then as soon as the real world invades their conversation, they’re at each other’s throats again immediately. And Dani is like, “How were you not mad at her?” She asked if they’re dating and Sophie’s like, “I don’t know what we’re doing,” which surprised me. Because it seems like, again, if Sophie doesn’t know if they’re dating or not, is it true that she told Finley to give her space? Everyone just is giving… There’s a lot of mixed messages here.

Drew: But I think there’s a lot of mixed feelings.

Riese: That’s true. You’re right. She’s confused.

Analyssa: Yeah. This is also a TV thing where friends give advice based on the last thing they heard their friends say instead of hearing the evidence and saying, “Oh, she definitely did say to give you space, but that is weird that she asked you to dinner. Maybe be a little more cautious.” Or maybe, instead of being like, “She said space, don’t talk to her.” But I did think that this whole progression from the time-honored tradition of post-ex sex, like, “This is what I thought our lives would be like, isn’t it so nice in this little bubble that we’ve built. Remember when we thought all these things would happen?”

Riese: Yeah.

Analyssa: Again, not speaking from personal experience, only allegedly. Moving into like, “Oh, actually there’s all these reasons that this was not ever going to be a thing.” I do think it was interesting that Dani seems more upset that Sophie isn’t pissed at Finley, that she just fucked her right now while maybe having feelings for Finley.

Drew: Yeah.

Analyssa: That distinction was really interesting to me.

Drew: Yeah, that is interesting.

Riese: It was also interesting when Dani got mad that Sophie’s response was, “You told me not to lie.” Like that was her comeback.

Analyssa: The whole defense was, “Well, you said to be honest, so here we are.”

Riese: Like, that’s not the issue, babe. It’s that the honest truth was one she didn’t care for. The solution to that isn’t—

Drew: Sophie is not perfect person. I’m going to go on the record and say that.

Riese: She’s not. She’s not. None of us are. I have empathy for Sophie, obviously.

Analyssa: I do too. I also think, though, that this showed sort of what we’ve been saying for a season and a half, is that they don’t really know how to communicate, which even lends to they don’t really know how to fight. They’re sort of fighting past each other.

Drew: Yeah. Totally.

Analyssa: They’re saying different… They’re in different boxing rooms, throwing punches at each other.

Drew: Yeah.

Riese: And that Sophie finally feels more competent in her career and excited about it is a sign that this breakup is good and that she seems to be better at talking to Dani about it now than she ever has been before. And Dani seems more excited for her than she was before. I also thought another funny thing is that Dani’s, probably because she just had sex with Sophie, she’s really mad at Finley. She’s like, “Aren’t you mad at Finley for ruining our wedding?” And yeah, but also Sophie is the one who—

Drew: Yeah.

Analyssa: Finley did embarrass them in front of people they know, totally. But what she didn’t do was show up as a guest to their wedding, and I don’t know, strip naked and run around and boycott the wedding. She was saying something that Sophie had a part in.

Riese: Yeah. She didn’t cheat on anyone.

Analyssa: She didn’t just appear to show chaos.

Drew: I mean, this is why I pretty much… Look, Finley’s friends with Dani so I do think that it was wrong of her. But I generally do think that the person who’s cheating has more responsibility than the person who is having sex with the cheater.

Riese: The other person.

Drew: But I think it’s easier for people to be mad at the other person. I mean I think this comes up in straight culture all the time.

Riese: Right.

Drew: When people are mad at the other woman, and it’s like, “Be mad at your husband, babe.” You know? But it’s harder to be mad at the person you love.

Riese: Because you’re trying to make it work with them, too.

Drew: Right.

Riese: You know what I mean?

Analyssa: Or you’re in this post post breakup sex bubble.

Riese: Yeah. And I mean, is interrupting a wedding to confess your love ever a good move? No.

Drew: I want to say no.

Riese: Absolutely not. That was bad. We all know that. But it’s just interesting. And then also when she’s mad about it and Sophie’s like—

Sophie: You told me it was over. And I believed you. You’re just so full of conviction.
Dani: No. Don’t put this on me.
Sophie: Well, is it not over between us?

Drew: They don’t know what they want. No one knows what they want.

Riese: It’s hard to know what you want.

Analyssa: Yeah, and Riese, to your thing, I don’t know what episode of they don’t know what they want, but they also don’t really know who they are without each other yet. And so it’s very easy to drop everything and go look for your ex because you know where she might be hiding. And then when you guys are in bed together to be like, “God, this is what it would have been like.” Sophie doesn’t know how to be the person who blew up her life. And Dani doesn’t really know how to be the person who doesn’t have Sophie. And neither of them know how to be the person that aren’t Dani and Sophie.

Riese: Yeah, definitely.

Analyssa: So it’s very complicated.

Drew: Yeah. Well, and now it’s complicated for Finley as well because Micah accidentally lets it slip that Sophie was seeing Dani, and Finley is very sad. And then we get one of our classic montages. Finley gets on a scooter. That’s how you know someone’s spiraling when they get on one of these scooters.

Analyssa: One of those rental scooters from the side of the road in Los Angeles? That’s a bad sign.

Riese: Bird? She gets a Bird?

Drew: Yeah. Alice goes home and is crying.

Riese: Alice hugs Lenore.

Drew: Yeah.

Analyssa: And cries.

Riese: I cried.

Drew: Maribel and Micah are texting. And I’m just shouting, “Be direct, Micah!” But you know what he’s not? He is not direct.

Analyssa: He did draft a very forward text, but then he didn’t send it.

Drew: Send the forward text. This is my message to all of you listeners. Send, do it. What do you… Why not? It’s a pandemic. It’s still a pandemic.

Analyssa: Not in The L Word: Generation Q.

Drew: No, it’s not. That’s true. But the pandemic could happen. You know, they should always be prepared.

Analyssa: They don’t know yet, but a pandemic could happen in their lifetime. They’re still living in normal precedented times thinking that everything in the rest of their life is going to be precedented.

Riese: I have a friend who worked on the show and I was like, “Can you tell me any spoilers?” So of course she was like, “No.” She’s like, “I will tell you one thing, which is that they’re going to pretend like there was never any pandemic in this country.” And I was like, “Oh good. That’s nice.”

Drew: For The L Word, that’s the right choice.

Analyssa: For The L Word, that’s great.

Drew: I’m actually on… I think a lot of people really don’t want shows to take the pandemic into account or make work about the pandemic. I’m not of that mind. I actually am interested in seeing how different shows handle it. But I think it’s important to know what the tone of your show is. And Gen Q not having pandemic in the world is very much the right choice.

Riese: Yeah. Of course Grey’s Anatomy has to have pandemic in the world.

Analyssa: Riese, thank you so much for bringing up Grey’s Anatomy. That was important to me.

Drew: Yeah. So then the montage ends with Finley going to a liquor store.

Riese: Sad.

Analyssa: I’m so nervous for her.

Drew: I know. It’s not fair.

Riese: Yeah. Because now she’s just going to be on a bender and she’s not going to talk to Sophie about her feelings and everything is going to be wild and weird.

Analyssa: But luckily one direction things are not going to be wild and weird in is that Dani and Sophie are outside of the manor. And Sophie’s like, “I have to leave.” Where it doesn’t really feel mean or like they’re ending on bad terms, but it is just pretty final.

Riese: Yeah.

Analyssa: And Dani says that—

Dani: I think we dodged a bullet, you and me.

Drew: They did.

Analyssa: And can confirm. But it’s also sort of like, maybe you could stay. I didn’t really… It was kind of-

Riese: I didn’t understand.

Analyssa: Yeah.

Riese: Because she was like, “But this feels easy,” or whatever. Does she mean now that we decided not to get married it’s easier to be around each other? Which yeah, of course. You were about to get married.

Analyssa: Because you two didn’t want to get married. And you didn’t want to get married.

Riese: Again, it was a bad idea. So of course. But also, what do you mean by… Does that mean you are going to keep seeing each other?

Drew: I don’t think she knows.

Analyssa: Yeah. It seems to have dropped into that weird, “Are we going to be friends who have a fraught history? Or are we…” Like it’s maybe going to be more explicitly romantic, but under the guise of — that sort of in between very-broken-up and very-together are these spectrum of, “Yeah, we’re just friends, but sometimes we joke about how we’ve seen each other naked.” Or, “We’re still hooking up, but we’re not together.” Those are all somewhere in the middle and I think they might be falling somewhere in there.

Riese: Yeah.

Drew: Yeah.

Riese: Oh yeah, and then I think the other thing is that when you’re in the center of a drama, it’s all you can think about. You’re like, “Everyone’s judging us and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.” But in truth, no one cares anymore. Everyone cared about the drama when it happened but after that they’re just kind of everyone’s thinking about themselves. They’re not thinking about your drama.

Drew: Yeah. It’s a good lesson. And so with that, I don’t know if it’s really a cliffhanger as much as it is just a vague, sad couple breaking up, not fully committing to the breakup moment with that. It’s the episode.

Riese: That’s the episode!

Analyssa: Less of a cliffhanger, more of a small boulder rolling slowly down a cliff.

Drew: Yeah.

Riese: Exactly. Like a rolling stone gathering moss. Or not.

Drew: That is the expression. Okay, so what did we think about this episode?

Riese: I thought there was a lot of crying. By me.

Analyssa: This one was sad.

Riese: It was very emotional.

Drew: Yeah. The second episode is the one that I enjoyed the most, but I think this is the best episode of the season so far. Just from a character motivation, where the storylines are going, just everything. I pretty much felt the depth and the purpose to most of what happened this episode. And I did still enjoy a lot of it, even though it was sad. But you know, sometimes gays are sad.

Riese: Most, usually.

Drew: Yeah, usually. The main thing that I’m a little bit ugh about is the whole Marcus dying thing. I guess I don’t really get where they’re going with that, but I guess we’ll see. But other than that, I love the Bette-Pippa stuff.

Analyssa: Shocking.

Drew: Yeah. Shocking. Never on brand. And I don’t know. I’m excited to see where all these storylines go. This does feel like sort of a precursor to some of the more intense drama, and I’m excited to see that drama. I also love… I love a bubble. I love when Dani and Sophie, even though I don’t want them to be together, I’m always really fascinated by these moments that people carve out for themselves where you are away from your normal life and you just connect and have… Honestly, this isn’t the kind of show that The L Word is, but I would watch an hour long bottle episode that was just Sophie and Dani at the not-lake lake house. I love when shows do stuff like that. And so having even this little taste of it, I really enjoyed seeing their dynamic and it felt really truthful. And I really liked that aspect of it. Even if I’m not rooting for them, but that’s not going anywhere. There’s no future there.

Riese: I feel like they are really following through with having all these other smaller characters have bigger roles this time, like with Micah, with Maribel, with Tess. And that’s really great. I think it’s giving the show a lot more energy. And the thing with the Marcus thing is I wasn’t sure what she was going to say, because I was like, “There’s no way they’re going to find that Canadian actor and bring him back to the show.” But now that we’ve seen Lenore… Honestly, now that we’ve seen Lenore, I’m like, “Maybe they will.”

Analyssa: Now they’ve opened the box of ghosts of L Word past, they’re really digging in there.

Riese: Yeah. They sure are.

Drew: What person who’s in very few episodes would you love to see come back?

Analyssa: Cobie Smulders, that artist that she played. That’s just, that’s a personal thirst decision. That has nothing to do with the story.

Drew: Yeah. That’s how I feel about Melanie Lynskey coming back.

Analyssa: Cobie Smulders in that little white tank top?

Riese: Jamie.

Drew: Yeah. Well, she’s more of a character. I don’t feel like—

Analyssa: She wasn’t in that many, though. She didn’t really get into the group.

Riese: She was in like three or four episodes, season six. Which I feel like people forget.

Drew: That’s it?

Riese: Yeah. Because no one watches season six again. You saw it one time, you put it out of your mind.

Drew: I don’t know why, she really left an impression. Okay. I’m on board with you. Then yeah, bring back Jamie.

Riese: Yeah. I thought she only did a few episodes, also she worked at the LGBT center, so there’s no reason for her not to be there. I love that actress.

Drew: I’d like Lisa to come back, but it be recast as a trans woman.

Riese: As a trans woman. Yeah. That would be nice. But I mean, when they had Lenore it was like, Marcus might really be coming back.

Drew: Yeah.

Riese: You know?

Analyssa: Yeah.

Drew: It was impressive.

Riese: We’ll see.

Lauren: Thank you so much for listening to this episode of To L and Back: Generation Q! One of two podcasts brought to you by Autostraddle.com. You can follow us on Instagram and Twitter @tolandback. You can also email us at tolandbackcast@gmail.com. Don’t forget, we also have a hotline! Yes, it still exists! Give us a call, leave us a message, or just give us a piece of your mind! You can reach us at 971-217-6130! We also have merch! Head over to store.autostraddle.com. There are “Bette Porter For President” t-shirts, there are To L and Back stickers, and lots of other simply iconic Autostraddle merchandise. Our theme song is by the talented Be Steadwell. Our brand new To L and Back: Generation Q logo is by the incredible Jacqi Ko! Jacqi is so, so talented and you should definitely go check out her work, I’ve linked her website and socials in the show notes! And definitely let us know if you want us to make stickers of the new logo, because I think those would look pretty sick! This episode was produced, edited and mixed by me, Lauren Klein, you can find me on Instagram @laurentaylorklein and on Twitter @ltklein. You can follow Drew everywhere @draw_gregory. That’s “Drew” in the present tense. You can follow Analyssa on Instragram @analocaa, with two As, and on Twitter @analoca_, with one A and an underscore. And you can follow our in-house L Word savant and living legend, Riese Bernard, everywhere @autowin. Autostraddle is @autostraddle. And of course, the reason we are all here… Autostraddle.com. Okay. So sticking with the trend of last week with our now full-of-intention L words, we are going to end this episode with an L word that describes what we thought of this episode. So Drew, Riese, Analyssa, what are your L words?

Drew: My L word is love. Because—

Riese: Wow.

Analyssa: Wow. Profound.

Riese: Love wins?

Drew: Because, in my love-hate relationship with The L Word, this week it’s skewed towards love. And maybe it’s because I’m in Canada and I’m in a good mood, but I was very on board for this episode. And I am happy to be happy with my chaotic friends once more.

Analyssa: Okay. Mine’s Lenore.

Riese: Oh, that’s mine too!

Drew: That’s so exciting though!

Riese: I was like, “Mine’s dumb. Just pick something dumb.” This is the first time I’ve ever — we’ve ever had two people picking the same word.

Analyssa: Really?!

Riese: Yeah. And what a word.

Analyssa: I was going to say, and I’m so happy it was her.

Riese: Lenore. Just here she is, with her lips.

Analyssa: We’re basically Shane right now.

Riese: Yeah. Basically.

Analyssa: Lenore on the mind.

Riese: One of many similarities. We have a private jet and we have Lenore on the mind.

Analyssa: And we’ve had the same haircut for 20 years.

Riese: That’s actually true. I have.

Analyssa: I have not, but—

Riese: Well I guess I had a little dyke-y haircut back then.

Analyssa: That’s because I’m a Sagittarius.

Riese: I’m a Libra.

Drew: And Shane isn’t.

Analyssa: Shane’s not.

Drew: Shane is probably a Pisces.

Analyssa: Documentedly a Pisces.

Drew: Yeah.

Analyssa: We did a lot of research, which mostly led us back to Riese’s interview with Marja.

Riese: Well, I hope everyone has a nice weekend in Ojai.

Drew: I hope so too.

Analyssa: Find a lake house, if you can.

Riese: Yeah. Doesn’t need to have a lake.

Drew: Don’t sex with your ex. Unless you want to, and then you should. Have fun. Be safe out there, kids.

Riese: Bye!

Drew: Make good choices.

Analyssa: Bye.

“To L and Back” Gen Q Podcast Episode 203: Luck Be a Lady

Imagine with me, if you will, that you’re talking to someone really great and hitting it off. (Congrats, by the way, love that for you.) Maybe you’re on a date, maybe you’re chatting at a party or in the non-dairy milk section of your local grocery. Sparks might not be flying just yet, but the potential is there. It’s charged and exciting but also, nerve-wracking and could end with you embarrassing yourself in a big way. Are you with me here? In many ways…that’s what this episode of our beloved gay soap opera felt like!

Amid the break-ups, the make-ups and the new pairings we’re excited about, on this week’s episode of To L and Back (Generation Q…edition…), we also discuss the nuance required for meaningful conversations about tokenism and identity on television! Other topics include some ideas for a Bachelor / L Word crossover, some jobs Finley might actually be good at, and Angie’s baffling DNA test results. If none of those interest you, maybe Tess and Shane doing illegal things will?

SHOW NOTES

Riese’s recap for Episode 203
Drew live-tweeted her watch of Glee, I think you all deserve to see that
Some Autostraddle coverage of The Seven Husbands of Evelyn Hugo, the book I recommended to about 100 people
Drew has written about Magic Mike XXL before! And Riese has now watched it!
As Peggy Peabody popped into this pod episode briefly to explain, here’s some reading on Stendhal syndrome

Drew: Hi, I’m Drew!

Analyssa: And I’m Analyssa.

Riese: And I’m Riese!

Drew: And this is—

Drew, Analyssa, and Riese in unison: To L and Back: Generation Q!

Riese: Edition.

Analyssa: Edition?

Riese: I did say edition.

Drew: We’re doing the edition. I like that we’re sticking with edition.

Riese: Uh-huh (affirmative). I say edition.

Drew: Yeah.

Riese: I do the addition of edition.

Drew: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Well, here we are. Another episode of The L Word: Generation Q, the sequel to the original series that changed so many lives.

Riese: Yeah. I love changed lives.

Drew: Yeah. I love gay changed lives, especially. This episode is episode 203. It is called “Luck Be a Lady,” which is actually the name of my favorite episode of the original L Word.

Riese: Really?!

Drew: Yeah.

Riese: Episode 406?

Drew: Episode 406 is my favorite episode. It has the Bette Jodi sex scene, it has fun poker, it also starts with the really great—

Riese: Oh yeah, the phone chain.

Drew: Angela Robinson phone chain. It’s an incredible episode on television.

Riese: You’re correct.

Drew: Yeah. Either way, it’s a pretty bold move to name this episode after an original series episode, especially one that is so good. Yes, Riese? She’s raising her hand, that’s why I just called on her.

Riese: Okay. You guys, this is episode 203 and what’s 203 times 2?

Drew: 406.

Analyssa: Whoa. Okay. You’re getting to like Taylor Swift Easter egg level situation. Is that relatable to anyone or just me?

Drew: I got the reference, I think. This episode is also directed by Marja. So, is she directing the entire season? I don’t know, but so far she’s directed the first three, this episode is written by Maisha Closson, who has written on so much television, written Claws, How to Get Away with Murder, That’s So Raven, long career of TV writing.

Analyssa: That’s So Raven? Thank you for including that.

Drew: Yeah I know, seemed important. And yeah, and so I’m assuming, because of the name of the episode and because of what happened in the original “Luck Be a Lady,” there’s going to be some poker.

Riese: In the front.

Drew: Exactly. Should we get into it?

Riese: Yes.

Analyssa: Let’s do it.

Riese: Let’s do it.

Drew: We start with Angie! She got her DNA test results back and she is excited to check them.

Riese: Math time!

Drew: Math. Yeah. I wasn’t as… yeah. So yeah. What do you want to say?

Riese: As the resident math person on the show, on the podcast.

Analyssa: Thank you for taking that on.

Riese: Yes. I’d like to submit for your evaluation the following puzzle. Angie has a biological mother and father. The mother is Tina Kennard.

Analyssa: Yep. I’m with you so far.

Riese: The father is Marcus Allenwood.

Analyssa: I’ve seen the first season of The L Word.

Riese: A father’s genetics cannot comprise more than 50% of the whole makeup.

Drew: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Analyssa: Right.

Riese: So whyst, I must ask. Why therefore is Angie 51% Sudanese, 20% European, 22% native American, and 7% other regions.

Drew: Feels like whoever was in charge of that graphic thought that Bette carried Angie. That would be the leap that I would make. And look, it takes a lot of people to make a television show, and sometimes things like that happen. I don’t think there’s actually an explanation. I prefer the mistake explanation than the Tina—

Riese: Having Native American heritage?

Analyssa: Tina gets her 23andMe back and she’s like, I’m 3% Sudanese, actually. And yeah, woof.

Drew: Oh god. I don’t want to live in that world. Tina’s bad enough.

Riese: Show us Tina’s test.

Analyssa: Yeah. Now I want to see every single person’s… Again, famously anti-23andMe, but I would like to see fictional 23andMes from all of these people.

Riese: Absolutely.

Drew: I can’t imagine that any of our main characters — well, not maybe any of them, but I’m just thinking like Tina, Alice, them getting a 23andMe test, there’s just so many ways that that could go wrong. And I’m really trying to stick with these characters as opposed to getting frustrated with them. So, I’m going to call this a whim that we maybe don’t get the details of the various characters. The really exciting thing about this is that Angie already has a message from someone named Kayla Allenwood, who is a relative of hers.

Analyssa: It happens really fast. It happens as though these tweens have the 23andMe app on their phone and are immediately responding to every match they get.

Riese: Gen Z stands for Generation Geneticz.

Analyssa: Great plan.

Riese: With a z at the end, geneticz.

Drew: Right.

Riese: Yeah. ZNA.

Drew: That sounds like a really bad sci-fi novel. So speaking of… not speaking of really bad sci-fi novels, because Finley and Sophie are talking, but not about sci-fi novels. They’re talking about shitting your pants, and it’s fine but what’s really the main thing is that Finley and Sophie are cackling and having the time of their lives together.

Finley: Dude, so you’re telling me, you never shit your pants?
Sophie: Oh my God.
Finley: Oh dude. I shit my pants in the CVS.
Sophie: No you didn’t.
Finley: I shit my pants in my own bed. Yeah, I have problems, why do you think I’m coming in here in such a fucking hurry all the time?

Drew: And that’s really nice to see after all this time.

Riese: They’re sweeping?

Analyssa: Yeah, they’re cleaning up. It’s cute. Again, I feel like every conversation about The L Word, I’m like, “I wouldn’t have said this in my life, but sure, fine.” If I’m Finley and I think I may be in love with Sophie, but we haven’t actually become a couple yet, I might not talk about how many times I’ve shit my pants, but there’s something kind of charming about this.

Drew: Okay. But Finley’s type is exactly the type of very normatively attract… normative in the sense, like in a lesbian community sense, attractive person who just can get away with being disgusting and never think twice about it and people are just like, “Oh, Finley!” And you’re like, that person has never showered. And everyone’s like, “I love Finley so much!” That is Finley’s energy, so this felt very real to me.

Analyssa: 100%.

Drew: The number of times some hot cis blonde queer has talked to me about something where I was like, “I really wish you wouldn’t be sharing this, but by all means, you’re going to get away with it aren’t you?”

Riese: They’ll take really bad pictures of themselves and put them on Instagram in some subversive way and I’m like, “Ha ha, some of us look like that all the time.” Is this when Finley asks her to talk and she says—

Sophie: It’s too soon.

Drew: Incredible moment. Yeah.

Analyssa: Yeah.

Drew: It is.

Riese: And she’s like, “No.”

Drew: Yeah. She’s like, “It’s too soon.” Sophie’s expression is so good. What a great delivery of that. I really loved that.

Riese: When Sophie says it’s too soon to talk about your feelings, it’s too soon to talk about your feelings.

Drew: Yeah. I think that might be true.

Analyssa: Speaking of talking about feelings—

Riese: Nice.

Analyssa: Thank you so much, I’ve been working on that forever. Nat also wants to talk. So Alice is like, mournfully cleaning the house, she’s doing dishes and looking sad. And I was like, what has happened? And Nat comes in and is talking about how she slept with someone last night, and she’s very excited and Alice is deeply unexcited.

Riese: Right. She’s trying.

Analyssa: But sort of like tries to play along.

Riese: And failing.

Analyssa: Not well. Yeah.

Drew: Yeah. It’s interesting the way that … just, God, the way they talk about polyamory in this episode, it’s interesting because it’s not like I fundamentally disagree with the way that they’re framing it. I do think that being polyamorous can be a part of your identity in a way that it’s unchanging, right? I do think that like… I don’t know, the weight that is, I guess it’s because they feel like their relationship’s on the line. But it’s just very interesting… I think they’re talking about polyamory like it’s a very new alien concept and that’s what’s bothering me, is that I just feel like even if Alice couldn’t handle polyamory, she would have a reference point for it. I just don’t believe at this point in… I mean we’ve even seen it. I mean, we’ve talked about this last episode, but I just can’t imagine a world where Alice has never tried polyamory with people who she doesn’t care as much about.

Riese: Or with Jamie and Tasha.

Drew: I mean, she even has so it’s like… but even in the gap years that we didn’t see, like I’m just like… or have just so many friends who are polyamorous that like, all of the way they talk about it, like it’s—

Riese: Like Shane.

Drew: Yeah. Like it’s this mystery is just very weird to me. And also Alice asks Nat to shower twice before they have sex, so that’s not a great sign.

Analyssa: Yeah. She is just not trying very hard, it feels like.

Drew: Mm-mm (negative).

Analyssa: We’ll talk about this more later, I’m sure. But I don’t think that polyamory is necessarily for everyone, but it doesn’t seem like Alice is giving it a shot at all. She’s just like, “This feels bad and I don’t want to do it.”

Drew: She’s not communicating that. And she would be much better if she said this feels bad. The problem is that her version of trying is not communicating. And one of the main things I would say about polyamory is you need to be communicating and so it’s just… I mean, that’s very realistic to me I think, is someone being like, “I’m good, I’m good, I’m good, I’m good” and then they’re just silently dying. And it’s like, that’s not the way to handle this. Alice should be like, here are the feelings I have. Also Nat’s already sleeping over at someone else… it just feels like they’re really accelerating this.

Riese: But it feels realistic that Alice is probably still trying to figure out how she feels. This is her first date.

Drew: Oh no.

Analyssa: For sure, yeah.

Drew: Oh, it totally feels realistic that Alice wouldn’t be good at communicating about this. I’m just giving her advice from the real world that she probably should actually communicate her feelings.

Riese: Free advice!

Drew: Yeah.

Analyssa: I screamed in the next scene.

Drew: I also screamed.

Analyssa: I shrieked. Gigi and Bette are walking into a building and that’s not really important, what’s important is that Gigi’s hand is on Bette’s back and then she just fully grabs her ass in the lobby. Unreal.

Drew: Gigi is a really special person, to me and to all of us.

Riese: Yeah. First of all, Gigi is very thirsty as a person.

Drew: Yes. I really like that quality.

Riese: Which I appreciate. Yeah.

Analyssa: She wants to be as close to anyone she’s in a scene with as possible, and I relate to that.

Drew: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Riese: Yeah.

Analyssa: Anyone sharing my space, I’m like, “Let’s sit closer? Put your face next to mine?”

Drew: If they’re hot.

Riese: And then Bette introduces her as her girlfriend.

Rudolfo Nùñez: Nice to see you again.
Bette: Nice to see you. Rudolfo Nùñez, this is my girlfriend, Gigi Ghorbani.

Riese: Which really surprised me, but also, I’m already jarred by the experience of seeing Bette in a normal relationship, where she went on a date with someone and they’re getting to know each other and now they’re doing things together. And she honestly doesn’t really seem that into it. I feel like — and maybe again, I’m projecting because I rarely have had relationships… I’ve had one relationship that just started with, “Oh, we met on a dating app, let’s go on a date. I guess we like each other, let’s start dating.” And the whole time I was like, wow, this is just very… I guess this is just a nice way to date someone where there’s no drama around it or some sort of intense fallout.

Drew: Yeah. I do like Bette’s version of that is getting set up on a blind date from her friend who was previously in a throuple with that person.

Analyssa: But there is some drama there.

Drew: A little bit… but yes, it is also very jarring to see Bette that way. And Bette is introducing Gigi to Dani and her dad because Gigi is a realtor and Dani’s looking to get her own place now that she’s moving out of her previously shared home with Sophie.

Riese: Are there any couples on The L Word that started with two people going on a date to see if they might like each other and then gradually building a relationship?

Drew: Like Dana and Lara.

Riese: Ah, yeah. Dana and Lara.

Analyssa: That’s a good poll. If I could ask a genie for one power in the whole world, it would be instant recall of L Word episodes so I could participate in these sorts of conversations. Unfortunately, my brain is Swiss cheese so I have no answer to your question.

Drew: I really think you should use the genie for something… you could literally be like, “I wish that Gigi was a real person and in my bed right now.” Don’t waste your genie wish.

Riese: You could wish for world peace.

Drew: Or that.

Analyssa: I think that’s probably against the genie rules. In my head the genie is like, “I can’t give you anything that will materially change your world or the world around you.” That’s a very low rent kind of genie situation.

Drew: Twenty four hours with Gigi seems like it might not change that much.

Riese: You could teleport.

Analyssa: I always said if I had a super power that I think invisibility would be ideal because you could just sneak onto airplanes instead of teleporting.

Riese: Oh, but then you’d have to be on the airplane.

Analyssa: That’s true.

Drew: And you have to just be like up against the wall, trying to not get bumped into by the cart.

Riese: I don’t have that kind of time. I just want to teleport.

Analyssa: Places to be, places to get.

Riese: Places to be, things to do, people to see, normal relationships to have.

Analyssa: Riese, that’s actually a great segue into the next scene, where Micah and Maribel—

Riese: My OTP.

Analyssa: They have things to do, places to be, people to see. Micah’s starting a new job! And Sophie’s sister went with him for moral support, and Riese’s OTP lives.

Riese: She loves it. She’s like, “There’s a coffee shop in the lobby, you should work here.”

Analyssa: I have interviewed at a place with a coffee shop in the lobby and I agree that people should work there if they can.

Riese: I mean also the psych ward has a coffee shop in the lobby.

Drew: Micah’s very worried about whether his shirt is good. And I really am obsessed with her shouting at him, as she’s leaving, being like,

Maribel: Micah.
Micah: Yeah.
Maribel: The shirt’s great. Everyone’s talking about it. They’re definitely talking about it.
Micah: Okay.
Maribel: That guy is talking about it.
Micah: All right, bye.

Drew: Very funny. And I really enjoyed that.

Analyssa: She’s so funny!

Riese: She’s so funny! Jinx!

Drew: Yeah.

Analyssa: And she’s really good at the sort of making-fun-of-you joke that doesn’t feel mean.

Riese: Mm-hmm (affirmative), yeah.

Analyssa: They’re writing that sort of… yeah, like, “Everyone’s talking about the shirt!” Or it comes back later, too. Like, she’s just like, you’re an idiot, but it turns out we kind of have a lot in common, like Sophie calls Finley stupid all the time and it never feels like actually mean, it’s just like, you’re so dumb.

Riese: Yeah.

Analyssa: So I like that about them.

Riese: Their family must be a riot.

Analyssa: They grew up together in a very fun home, it seems like, with their mom and grandma.

Riese: A lot of ribbing.

Analyssa: Yeah.

Drew: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Riese: Okay. Speaking of budding romances, we go to Dana’s. Dana’s hot and tot, grill and poker palace, where Tess is very upset because Shane wrote her a check for $5,000 and she’s not a charity case. And I think everyone’s just normalized being a charity case.

Analyssa: I think if somebody wrote me a check for $5,000, I’d say, thank you so much.

Riese: Thank you.

Analyssa: I will move on with… We’re never going to talk about that, that’s great.

Drew: Especially if your boss is rich, you take whatever money you can get from them, even if you want to fuck them so you want to be on equal level with them, you’re not on equal level, she’s your boss. So if you’re going to fuck her, you have to take the realities of that. And you know what, get $5,000 out of it.

Riese: Your mom is sick, you need the money.

Drew: Why not? Yeah.

Analyssa: I mean, Shane says that and Tess folds immediately, Tess is like “Oh, I was really worked up, but actually this is nice, I’m going to leave now, thanks.” That was fun. I love them together.

Drew: Yeah. The trio of Shane, Tess, and Finley at this bar is really good, it really works.

Riese: Yeah.

Analyssa: It is really fun. Finley continues to be horrible at this job, also. She just doesn’t have this in her, but that’s fine, I’m glad that they’re supporting her lifestyle. So then, Angie is sprinting to find Jordie and she tells her that she has a sister and that she’s really excited about it. And Jordie’s like, “Well, when are you going to tell your mom?” And Angie’s like, “I’m absolutely not doing that.” And then Jordie’s like, “Okay, great. Well, I’ll come with you to make sure you don’t get kidnapped.” Which is very sweet.

Drew: Yeah, it’s really nice. I would love to get some more time with Angie and Jordie. I know Angie’s storyline this year is not romance than it was last year, but I’d love to have a little bit more time, a little bit more time with them.

Riese: Yeah. Do you think Angie knows that her mother is an experienced kidnapper? Her actual mother, Bette Porter?

Analyssa: Yeah, do you think that she knows that she’s actually experienced a kidnapping before?

Riese: She’s actually already been kidnapped in the past? She was kidnapped on a drive. Bette Porter drove her from Whistler, Canada to southern California.

Drew: Bette and Tina don’t feel like they have the best boundaries, so I feel like they have in fact probably told her about this. I think they probably told her about everything. I wouldn’t be surprised if Angie was like, “Oh yeah, my moms once fucked in an elevator during a blackout.” I think she probably knows a lot.

Analyssa: She definitely knows too much, or at least more than I would want to know about my parents’ situations.

Drew: Yeah.

Analyssa: So back at Gigi being—

Riese: Castle in the sky.

Analyssa: Yeah. Thank you so much. She’s showing them a massive condo.

Drew: This apartment is incredible.

Riese: It is enormous.

Analyssa: It’s so big. I just mean it’s so big that it’s like, why call it that? It’s like the floor of a building.

Riese: It’s a mansion in a building. It’s a loft, it’s a large… it’s a penthouse. It’s a penthouse.

Drew: Yeah. I was briefly Wes Anderson’s assistant and his apartment in New York was the only time that I’ve ever seen an apartment that was more impressive than this.

Riese: Famously, Autostraddle, for our first nine months, worked out of a penthouse apartment in the Trump Towers because—

Drew: Wow. I didn’t know that I was in Trump Towers.

Riese: Yeah. Which is really, really cringe, but our COO for that period of time was working for a guy who lived in Miami, but had an apartment in the Trump Towers he never used, and it was wild and it was enormous and it was just a whole other way of life. And now Dani is going to get to experience it. But speaking of experiences that people have and other people don’t have, we find out that Dani speaks Farsi.

Analyssa: But basically it’s cute because it’s like, Gigi tells Dani, my dad was kind of the same as yours. He wanted me to own stuff, he wanted me to make money and be a homeowner. I don’t know. Kind of weird, but fine. And they have a bonding moment and then they all start speaking Farsi to each other and they’re kind of getting along, hitting it off. Dani’s dad loves it, Gigi kind of loves it, Dani loves… I don’t know. I thought it was fun even though I had no idea what they were saying.

Riese: And Dani seems to trust Gigi, like at the end of it, she’s like, okay. And in this moment, I switch my alliance and now I’m shipping Gigi and Dani.

Analyssa: Yeah, same.

Drew: Yeah.

Riese: I think they’re a better fit.

Drew: Absolutely. And because Dani’s dad’s being really pushy about her getting this apartment right now. And Gigi sort of turns to Dani and is like—

Gigi: Hey, we’ll do whatever you say.

Drew: And it’s like a really… it’s good.

Riese: Gigi is so good.

Drew: Gigi’s incredible.

Riese: At adjusting to the situation, at sensing what people need, at kind of like feel… She’s obviously a great real estate agent because that’s a lot of that, is sort of how to slightly manipulate people into buying properties.

Analyssa: And feeling soothed enough that they trust you and want to do the thing you want them to do, which is buy a property. The only other thing is that it seems insane that Dani’s dad wouldn’t want to see more than one place, but he’s immediately like, “Let’s just buy this.” He wants Dani to move on. So.

Riese: Yeah.

Drew: Yeah. I mean, I think we’ll get to why in a little bit. But one other thing I’ll say about Gigi is just that, she’s chaotic in a way that’s like, controlled chaos and it is the best, it is my favorite type of person. Where it’s like, this person… she is the kind of person who is thinking about — whether it’s a throuple, whether it’s whatever she’s up to, in her head, she’s calculating everything and very aware of everyone’s emotions and very aware of her own emotions and then does the chaotic thing anyways. And that is, I think, how I lived my life and I love to see it on TV in someone so hot.

Analyssa: When they talk about aspirational television, that’s what this is. We’re going to rename the podcast To Gigi and Back, it’s fine.

Riese: Yeah.

Drew: Yeah. Someone who is not in control of pretty much any situation in her entire life, Alice is playing foosball in her office and is in a Twitter fight with James Corden. Those are my first two notes.

Analyssa: Yeah. Mine says, “Alice is playing foosball and feuding with James Cordon,” so we both have the same—

Riese: Just a normal day in LA.

Analyssa: That’s what it’s like. I mean, I also beef with James Cordon, just now on Twitter because that would be amazing. I just personally—

Drew: Yeah, he doesn’t have a clue who I am.

Analyssa: But personally in my brain, every time he appears in a trailer for a movie musical, which is all of them, I beef with him.

Drew: Yeah.

Riese: She is dreading her meeting with Tom, who I find myself kind of loving, I must admit.

Drew: I like him a lot.

Riese: I like him.

Analyssa: I like these fish-out-of-water characters they’ve introduced to the group this season. Tom and Carrie both being like, “You guys are fucking weird,” because I think it is a weird world. It’s very rich and very specific, and they’re all lesbians, obviously, or queer, but yeah. I like these new more sort of quote, “normal” personality types that are like, “This is weird. This is how you live?” Anyway.

Riese: Yeah.

Drew: Yeah. But right now, Alice is talking to Sophie about… Well, Sophie’s pitching her segment ideas and then they pivot to talking about Nat, and we learned that Nat’s date was with Marissa, the trans woman from the last episode — well, trans actress from the last episode or from the first episode, and then Nat texts Alice saying, “Can I see Marissa again tomorrow night?” Which is pretty intense because I’m just like, isn’t Nat tired? And I’m also like, oh, so Nat doesn’t want to dabble in polyamory, Nat wants several partners. If you’re seeing someone twice within three days, she wants Marissa to be her girlfriend and Alice to be her girlfriend, and that feels like… I’m not saying that a monogamous person can’t be in a relationship with a polyamorous person, but I feel like maybe not with that kind of polyamorous person. That feels really challenging for Alice and the way Alice is, but Alice says, “No prob!” Which is because she does not know how to communicate.

Riese: Well, and also she can’t… I mean, I feel like maybe in a way I was in this situation and it’s like, I could handle being with a poly person who just wants to hook up with other people or whatever. That’s fine. I can handle that. But having full blown relationships with other people and kind of what this seems like, with Nat maybe is just really into new relationship energy and likes riding that high, like that, when I’ve done that, when I’ve tried to have that kind of relationship, it’s been incredibly difficult for me. And I also think that Nat probably should have set expectations a little more, or honestly should maybe take a few days off just out of respect for Alice. Just because she’s trying to ease her into this thing that she’s not sure about.

Analyssa: Yeah. I mean, I think this is a continuation of the thing from last season too, which is when Gigi and Alice and Nat kind of fell apart, because Nat just like… I don’t think it’s malicious, but I think she doesn’t really think about like, “Oh, I should set down. This is what I would like, and this is what that would look like for you. And how do you feel about that?” She’s like, “It was fun to hang out with Marissa. I’m really into her. I want to do it again and is my partner cool with that? Okay, great.” She’s just kind of bowling through it, which I do get is really tough for Alice.

Drew: Yeah. It feels like Nat should be solo poly. It feels like she should be her own primary partner, or she needs to be in a primary partnership with someone who very much has the same relationship to polyamory as she does because yeah, you’re right. She doesn’t seem to want to set ground rules or really talk that much about it, and that feels like a problem for a lot of poly dynamics.

Riese: Right. And it’s also further complicated by the fact that Nat has kids, and so when she goes out, Alice takes care of them and, which is fine, but also that is like… That’s another way of complicating it. Alice is kind of in a weird situation there where it’s not necessarily… It’s this weird… Because it doesn’t seem like Alice was super into being a mom, really, and she never really expressed a desire to have kids in the original series or this series. So I don’t think either of them are doing very good with this.

Drew: I think they’re also writing it in a way, I mean, I think based on the reactions and based on… It doesn’t feel like this is being written by people with a lot of experience with polyamory or with a lot of sympathy toward polyamory, in a way that I find a little bit annoying. I just am like, why does Nat have to be this person who’s bad at communication? I mean, I still think Alice probably would have struggled if Nat had been good at communicating and that could have been more interesting, I don’t know. But instead it just feels like, “Oh, these polyamorous people are so weird with their multiple dates a week and not knowing how to talk” and, it just, I don’t know, it feels just a little bit… I don’t really get why they’re choosing to frame it this way, but it’s fine. And Nat’s certainly not perfect because in the next scene, as she introduces Micah to the new job, she’s like, “We were looking for someone just like you.” And he’s like, “Oh, amazing,” thinking she meant someone who specializes in grief, and she obviously meant trans.

Riese: Why didn’t she just say that?

Drew: Oh, I mean, she absolutely wouldn’t say that. Don’t you think? I think cis person Nat would totally just be like, “Oh my God, we’re so happy to have you with your experiences,” with the words trans—

Riese: She would just dance around it?

Drew: Yeah, for sure. It seems like a good gig though. So that’s nice.

Analyssa: They have a coffee shop in the lobby, I’ve heard.

Riese: Yeah. They have a coffee shop in the lobby.

Drew: I’ve heard about that coffee shop. Yeah.

Analyssa: So, in the next scene, Dani is already signing papers. She’s back at the—

Riese: Manor.

Analyssa: The manor. Thank you. She’s back at the big manor. Some man in a suit, I’m sure, has handed her a pen. Her dad really wants her to sign all this stuff. He also wants her to date Gigi because she’s, quote, “adventurous and gutsy.” Personally, I want them to date because they’re both hot, but that’s just me. And then Dani’s dad is being supportive, but in a kind of weird way. He’s like, “I’ll give you anything in the house that you want to fill your apartment. I know you don’t have all your furniture,” and then he’s like, “Also while you’re signing stuff, here’s some other papers to sign,” and they’re a will, and power of attorney and a DNR and a bunch of other rich people I’m dying kind of paperwork, right? That’s the thing.

Drew: Yeah. At this point it was heavily implied that he’s dying, was my takeaway. That is not where, eventually, I will think the story is going, but at this point in the story, I was pretty sure that he was dying.

Riese: And I was like, come on, like give her… Her mom is dead. Her girlfriend fucked Finley in the green room, and then she ruined the wedding after they’d already paid for everything. Just give her a break.

Analyssa: Give Dani a break.

Drew: Yeah.

Riese: Give her a break.

Drew: Yeah.

Riese: At least she has a ton of money, I guess. That can help when you’re going… I mean, it sucks to have all of that and be poor.

Drew: Sure.

Analyssa: Right.

Drew: I fully forgot that people could buy an apartment. When she was signing it to buy it, I was like, oh, she’s not just signing a lease? Oh right, people buy apartments. Cool. Right. Yeah.

Riese: It takes a little longer than that, but yeah.

Drew: Yeah.

Riese: Can’t really process it day of, I don’t think. It takes like a month.

Drew: Yeah. Yeah.

Riese: But I love TV.

Drew: Yeah. We then go to one of my favorite things, which is Bette and art and now with added Gigi. So it’s really just a real dream for me, personally.

Analyssa: And both wearing great jackets, I want to say.

Drew: Of course. Of course.

Riese: I didn’t like Bette’s jacket.

Analyssa: I don’t remember right now, but I did write that Gigi and Bette are wearing great jackets and holding hands, so good for them.

Riese: Her arm was 50% cuff.

Analyssa: Oh, I kind of liked that.

Riese: Which is a common thing they do. Whenever they look at Bette, they think we need more in the forearms. We think more fabric in the forearms and then they wrap her arm in gauze and they puff it up. That’s her style.

Analyssa: Yeah. Something about Bette’s costuming is more on the arms, more on the collar, more on the hem. That’s the Bette Porter way.

Riese: More, more, more, more, more.

Analyssa: Yeah. Anything on the edges of her clothes, they’re like, yes. Keep going.

Riese: And Bette’s like, “Art, art, art, art,” and I think Gigi’s like, “Mm-hmm,” but mostly is excited about Bette.

Analyssa: Yeah. Gigi’s like, “Bette, Bette, Bette, Bette, Bette.”

Drew: Yeah. Gigi’s like, “How do you know when abstract art is good?” And Bette’s like, “Does it move you? Does it change you? Does it catch your eye?” And then, Gigi is like, “You catch my eye.” And I was like, “No Gigi!” It gave me the same vibes as if I’m showing a movie to someone and they want to make out during it, I’m like, no, you really even pass this test. I mean, there’s no movie that I’d rather watch than making out with Gigi. So to be fair, I think she can pull it off. But theoretically, no. Show interest in your girlfriend’s interests, get excited along with her. I don’t know. That’s just, I think for Bette and for me, I think that was an important thing for someone you’re dating to do. They don’t have to have the same interests, but if you’re at a thing with a person, put some effort into understanding, if not the thing, their excitement about the thing.

Analyssa: Right. It’s the difference between when someone you’re dating is, when you’re rambling about something you’re really excited about, and they’re like, “Oh, you’re so cute when you talk about this,” versus “I love listening to you talk about this.” Those are different vibes and Gigi’s is very much doing, “You’re so hot when you talk about art,” and I think Bette wants somebody to be like, “I could listen to you talk about art all day,” and it’s a very subtle difference, but Bette does react pretty weirdly.

Drew: Yeah. The good thing is that Bette starts crying at art again. One of the best things to see is when Bette has just… What’s it called? In that one episode…

Riese: In the Peggy Peabody episode? Stendhal.

Drew: I can’t remember what the word is. Yeah.

Riese: Yeah. When art something, blah, blah, blah. Peggy Peabody says it better than I could ever say it.

Peggy Peabody: You know Stendhal?
Bette: The French art critic?
Peggy Peabody: He went to Florence, he saw the Caravaggio.
Bette: And he burst into tears, and then he fainted. The work of art was so beautiful and moving, he couldn’t withstand the impact. The Stendhal Syndrome.

Riese: But I do think this is really when I’m like, they don’t click. They just don’t click. And I feel like Bette either needs someone like Tina, who’s going to lap up her every word, and now Tina’s an art expert too and knows the name of this dealer or whatever the fuck, or she needs someone like Jodi, who is going to just be sparring for dominance, who’s going to be challenging her and pushing her. And I feel like Gigi’s kind of in between those in a way that’s not really going to work. But Bette is, I guess, lonely. Actually Bette hates being single.

Drew: Yeah. Bette’s never been single.

Analyssa: Bette is really moved by an artist named Pippa Pascal, who I didn’t have any recognition of, but we will hear more about later.

Riese: Yeah. She’s not a real artist in the real world.

Analyssa: Right. But the way she says it, I was like, oh, am I supposed… Again, I remind you that I have a Swiss cheese brain, and so I was like, am I supposed to remember this? Do I know who this person is? Anyway.

Riese: What we do know from meeting the news of the world is that Pippa Pascal is going to be played by Vanessa Williams, but there’s more than one Vanessa Williams, and it’s not the one that you’re thinking.

Drew: Incredible. So Micah brings home pizza, which is so exciting.

Riese: Maribel is there and Finley’s there, and Micah’s talking about his thing and Maribel is so funny. She just prods at him about it or pokes him about it, and it’s just like, ask for what you want.

Drew: Yeah. Okay. Here’s the thing, I really hate that I feel like I’m the downer of this podcast, but in my defense, I am trans, I just—

Analyssa: I have this note too, I think.

Drew: I just don’t understand why it’s framed oppositionally instead of commiserating. She’s like, “Oh, boohoo, you were treated poorly. I wanted a pony as a kid. I didn’t get that. Life sucks.” And it just was like, okay, Micah’s talking about transphobia that he experienced, and then later in the conversation, he says that it’s just demoralizing, and she’s like, “No, what’s demoralizing is a white lady lifted me out of my chair this week.” And I don’t know why they wrote it to be a contest between them instead of a commiseration and making it be like one thing is potentially worse than the other. It just feels sort of gross to me, and also just ignores disabled trans people, and I just never like when identity is discussed this way, and it didn’t really feel… I like that Maribel is someone who teases, and that’s really fun, and that banter is fun and usually it’s really fun, but in this scene I just was sort of like, I don’t understand why it’s being framed this way.

Analyssa: Yeah. I had that thought too. I have that in my notes too. It’s very fun to me to have a character like Maribel who’s like, “Just listen. Life is hard and what you need to do is just kind of buck up.” I can see that as sort of being her personality, but the few lines, and Drew, I think you’re right, it just didn’t need to be framed this way that were like, “Yeah, yeah, yeah. You think you have it hard, but I have it hard all the time,” is a weird line to draw in the sand. I mean, I think it’s similar to the things we’ve pointed out in some of these other big conversations. Bette being like, “I want bonuses for white artists too,” or like, “Bisexuality and polyamory are the same thing.” Trying to get into these bigger things in a character dialogue way sometimes leads to them feeling a little flip and actually not handled the best, which in conversation, you might do that, but that’s a real person talking instead of someone who got written and edited and cut together a bunch of times. You know?

Riese: Yeah. I think it reminded me a little bit of that conversation with Bette. Because I felt like the way they were framing it with Micah was Bette was insulted by the idea that she would only be interested in BIPOC artists, and then they also wanted to frame Micah as being insulted by the idea that he would be helping trans clients. And I feel like that’s an interesting way to address tokenism. I didn’t feel… I was like… And obviously I am the white cis person on this podcast, so my opinion matters the least. They wanted to address tokenism, but I just don’t think they did a very good job. I don’t think they picked good circumstances from which to explore that.

Analyssa: Right.

Drew: Yeah. I agree with that. And it’s just… I don’t know. Because if Finley is apologizes on behalf of all white women—

Riese: And they both just roll their eyes.

Drew: Yeah, but also they’re talking about ableism and transphobia, so I’m just like, would it kill them to use the word cis? Would it kill them to use the word abled? It just was, that felt really strange to me because I was like, yeah, Maribel specifies that a white lady picked her up out of her chair and it’s just like this conflation of otherness or just… I don’t know. I was just very frustrated throughout this scene. And I mean, because it’s clear that Micah and Maribel are going to like… I don’t know where their relationship’s going to go, but it is clear that they’re going to be paired together and maybe something’s going to happen. So maybe it will be handled well. I hope it is. I just, I think there’s such a great opportunity to show this trans abled person with this cis disabled person and the ways in which they don’t understand each other, the ways in which they do understand each other by being othered from this community, and it’s all something we really have never seen, at least not a ton of. And so I just hope they do it right. And this scared me a little bit as a starting off point.

Riese: Yeah.

Analyssa: Yeah. We’re in an era of TV that feels like, not to get too close to being canceled on the internet, but that feels very much like it has to moralize or talk about representation in a way that’s like, this is right and this is wrong. And it’s just like, we could’ve just not put this line in and it would have been a thing where Maribel is challenging Micah on, “You’re being kind of whiny about it and you haven’t even talked to Nat. Why don’t you go do that?” And that’s just a slightly different conversation that colors their relationship as one that is pushing each other to grow instead of arguing about who has a harder day and how to win at that.

Riese: Right. Yeah.

Drew: Well, speaking of politics and art and how things, sometimes, the industry just isn’t really made for people who aren’t cis and white and abled, and so Bette is super excited about Pippa and is talking to Gigi and is just so excited about it and is giving all this backstory about her and it’s very cute. Honestly. If Bette was my girlfriend and was this excited about art, I would die.

Analyssa: This was very cute. And they do a really cute hug and Gigi is like, “Do you want to go back and look at it again?” And Bette’s like, “Yes,” and they go and that was sweet.

Drew: Yeah. Yeah.

Analyssa: Back on the set of The Alice Show, Tom is talking to Alice about how she met Nat, what their relationship is like, what they’re doing now with being open, why the throuple didn’t work out. He has somehow zeroed in on exactly what is going to bother Alice the most to talk about today, and that’s what they’re talking about.

Riese: I think he wants her book not to suck.

Analyssa: Right.

Drew: Yes.

Riese: Yeah. Which I respect, also.

Analyssa: But there have to be other stories in that book that we could have talked about on today of all days.

Drew: Yeah. I mean, he’s just not helping the situation because he’s very much… I believe that this cis straight guy doesn’t know a lot about polyamory and so this all checked out. This felt like when I talked to my family about polyamory and they’re just like, “What?” And so it honestly felt very real to me, Tom’s reaction, and I was like, are Alice and Tom going to hook up?

Riese: I started to think that too!

Drew: There was a vibe and I was like, “I’m into this. Okay.”

Riese: I kind of am too.

Analyssa: It felt very flirty.

Riese: I feel like they might do a thing where one of them kisses the other one in a moment that they’re misjudging, whether or not, and then it gets really awkward. That’s what I’m predicting for them. But I also sense this tension, but yeah, you’re right. When I was dating someone who was poly, I knew that if I mentioned it in any scenario, besides the queer community that they would respond with some anecdote that was unrelated and about how they couldn’t do it. And oh, that’s so weird. And I’m like, “Thanks for your input.”

Analyssa: “Okay. Thank you.”

Drew: Speaking of people freaking out about things they don’t need to be freaking out about, Bette gets home early, basically Angie gets caught, and has to tell Bette about the DNA test.

Riese: With a box of childhood photos.

Analyssa: She gets caught with family photos, incriminating evidence.

Drew: No, but here’s the thing, I liked the fact that I think Angie could keep some things. There’s a difference to me between keeping something secret and lying. So I think once sort of caught, Angie was like, “I need to tell Bette about the 23AndMe and about my sister,” and so that, I really liked that. But then Bette starts freaking out, Gigi arrives and is like, “Angie seems right.” She’s very reasonable, but also I really liked this because I really like when people are like, “I’m going to say the real opinion, not the opinion that my partner wants.” And then when Angie’s like, “Who’s here?” Bette’s like—

Bette: No one.

Drew: And Gigi’s like—

Gigi: Wow. So yesterday I was your girlfriend and today I’m no one.
Bette: Oh Jesus. That’s not what I meant. All I meant was it’s really not a good time to meet her.
Gigi: Really. That’s all you meant? Because that felt like a lot more.
Bette: Okay. I can’t deconstruct your feelings right now.
Gigi: I’ve never asked you to deconstruct anything of mine, let alone my feelings.
Bette: Okay.
Gigi: You have a great day.

Riese: Again, Bette doesn’t like relating to people. Bette likes relating to art. She doesn’t like relating to other humans. If another human suggests that they have an experience anywhere similar to Bette’s, she just rejects it. And Gigi’s like… It’s not unusual for Gigi, the other non-biological mother of her children to suggest maybe these things are happening and Bette just shuts it down. So again, this isn’t going to work. It’s not going to work. It just feels like they’re dating because they think they’d be a good match in the same way that we thought they would be a good match.

Drew: Yeah. I think that’s true. I mean, look, I’m really grateful for that sex scene. And sometimes that’s what a relationship is. You’re really grateful for a sexual experience, and then you really realize you have to move on and that’s what it is.

Riese: You’re like, “We had a great sex scene.” They had two great sex scenes.

Analyssa: They’ve had a hot, beautiful time and now they need to part ways, I think.

Riese: Yeah. Some great episodic stills came out of this.

Drew: But what Gigi says does stick with Bette because she tells Angie that she’ll help her and go with her to meet her sister. So, that’s—

Riese: Yeah. Well, like Bette’s going to let her do that without her.

Drew: Right? No, but she might try to ground her or keep her, she might push back longer, so.

Riese: Remember when she grounded her and took her to the campaign HQ? Were we ever so young?

Analyssa: She also calls Tina, right, and leaves a voicemail. Presumably Tina, and leaves a voicemail.

Riese: Do you think that every time she has a reason to call Tina, she gets a little bit excited?

Analyssa: Yes. That was exactly… She pushed Gigi out the door and then her first thought was calling Tina, and I was like Bette, you just really wanted to call Tina so bad. Immediately.

Drew: I mean, every time she has an excuse to call Tina, a lot of people in my Twitter mentions are also really excited. And you know what? I think that’s great for all of you.

Riese: Probably when Tina comes over, Bette steals her sweater that she leaves on a chair so she can call her later and be like, “I think you left your sweater on my chair.” Come back and stare at me and not say anything.

Analyssa: Bette’s trying to loan Tina books on the way out so that she has to come back and return it to her.

Riese: Yeah, and then she’s like, “I need The Scarlet Letter back.”

Drew: Yeah. Tina’s like, “Bettina is over,” and Bette’s like, “It’s Tibette!”

Drew: Well, speaking of kids working out their issues, Micah is seeing a client and then is talking to Nat about it, and says that he asked the kid if he’d asked his parents about making a “chemical transition,” which I’ve never heard that used before. I don’t know if it’s because it’s… I’ve always heard “medical transition.” I don’t know if you’ve heard “chemical transition,” and that’s also a proper term? Let me know.

Riese: I think it’s if you have sodium and oxygen and niacin in your body, they take it out and they put in calcium and maybe some sort of morphine. Is that a chemical? I’m just saying words, and then it’s just like… It’s sort of like chemistry class, and then everything goes into a beaker, and then it kind of bubbles up all over. And then it’s like, “Oh, it’s a volcano!” And then you’re a person.

Drew: Yeah. I think, when I was in chemistry class, I read The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo trilogy under my desk. I don’t actually remember a lot from chemistry itself, but it wasn’t really a science kid.

Riese: I wrote poems.

Drew: Yeah, that sounds right.

Analyssa: I did a fun experiment where I made flames turn different colors, based on what element you put in the flame.

Riese: Wow!

Analyssa: I was kind of a science kid.

Drew: That’s cool.

Riese: I memorized state nicknames, and wrote poems.

Drew: That’s nice. Well, Micah confronts Nat about only seeing trans clients. And then Nat’s like… It was like, “Oh, my bad. Like I’m… How embarrassing. That’s on me, blah, blah, blah.” So it works. I know it’s my job to unpack this, but I’m honestly pretty tired. But I’ll do my best. I guess what I just want to say is that everyone gets to have sex and cheat and have chaos. And I know Micah has a little bit of that with José, but the main screen time we’ve spent with Micah and José was Micah explaining trans stuff to José. Then it was Micah explaining trans stuff to his mom. And it was Micah explaining trans stuff to his boss. And I’m like what if Micah started working for Nat, and then they fucked? Because Nat’s clearly horny, and she’s got a very organized schedule of fucking random people. What if that had been the storyline? I just am like why does the trans character have to have every storyline be about oppression or navigating these things? I mean, I guess if my life was filled exclusively with cis people who didn’t know a lot about transness, that would be what it is, but that’s… Most trans people don’t make their lives that way, especially living in major cities and whatever. So I just… It doesn’t feel… I think I’m just like that’s what I’m frustrated about. And it makes me, honestly, despite fighting so hard for Tess to be trans, and Jordie to be trans, I sort of give up, in the sense that I’m sort of happy that they’re not because… And I get that’s probably what Jamie was thinking, and it’s frustrating to me because I actually don’t think it’s an either/or. I think you can have a character that… It’s literally just not that hard for there to be a line here or a line there that feels grounded and realistic and specific, and while a character is still getting to be a full person. But, apparently, that is too hard for, I think, most writers’ rooms nowadays, especially ones that are populated almost entirely by cis people. And so, it’s like, I’m so happy that we get to watch Jamie Clayton have a character that is full and complicated. And I know what Leo can do. And he’s good in the scene and he’s good, but I just… It’s just frustrating that I don’t feel like he’s necessarily getting the storylines that are fun, and can show what he can do, and can just let him be hot and complicated, like everyone else on the show. And who knows where… Again, we are getting like it seems like a future romance with him and Maribel. So maybe we’ll get that. But I’m like, do I trust their ability to write trans people or disabled people? Not really. So, I’m a little bit… I’m more like I want to be excited about it because I really like both of the actors, and I think they have a lot of chemistry. But I’m also just sort of nervous and exhausted. Again, he doesn’t have to be like… If he’s not… I mean, we’ve seen that he is sexual. But every character doesn’t have to be a slut, but it is just like let him be… I just… Anyways, I want the fun. We’re about to get into a scene right after this that is so fun, and is everything I love about the show. And it’s just like what if trans people—

Analyssa: Got to do that?

Drew: Yeah. And so, what that scene is, is a Dani-Gigi scene, our new favorite ship. Dani arrives at Gigi’s office to get the keys to her new home, and Gigi says…

Gigi: Hey, lady.

Drew: And I… It’s so funny because, actually, I have a few friends who refer to me, and I refer to a lot of people as lady, and so… And it’s fine when they do it. But I also… Sometimes people will “Lady” me, and it feels like a cis person trying really hard to validate me in a way that I’m like, “Mm, I don’t need that.”

Riese: How do you feel about Lady and the Tramp?

Drew: Famously about a T4T couple of dogs. So, yeah. I’m into that.

Analyssa: Famously.

Riese: Also has erotic spaghetti-eating, like Blue Is the Warmest Color.

Drew: That’s true. I would… Oh, my God. I would Lady and the Tramp with Gigi any day. But when she said, “Hello, lady,” like I died. I was like, “This is really doing it for me.” There’s like the top, top, top love triangle that’s happening here. It’s just like it’s so intense. There’s so much earth and fire happening, and I’m just very into all of it.

Analyssa: Yes. Very earth and fire sign forward situations unfolding. Anyway, Gigi is like, “Here’s the keys to your new place. Like, you want to throw out the keys to your old place? Also, I’ll show you around the neighborhood,” which is beyond her job description as a realtor, I’ll say. Drew and I just signed a lease, and you know who didn’t ask us to be shown around the neighborhood? Our property manager.

Drew: Wow! Wait. Is our property manager hot?

Analyssa: No. Absolutely, he’s not hot.

Drew: That’s so disappointing. Oh, right. I forgot. He’s also a man. You know, some people’s thing, but not usually mine.

Drew: And I would like to say, as I always feel the need to clarify that hotness is an energy.

Riese: Right.

Drew: It’s not really about a specific way to look. Hotness is an energy. Anyone can be hot if they have the personality for it.

Riese: Like the beast in Beauty and the Beast.

Analyssa: Great point.

Riese: Thank you.

Drew: He’s pretty abusive. But if that does it for you, Riese. Not… I’m not your therapist. I’m just your friend.

Riese: Okay.

Drew: So we can talk about it later, but—

Riese: It doesn’t do it for me.

Drew: Okay.

Riese: I was actually referencing the television program, Beauty and the Beast. It aired in the 80s.

Drew: Oh!

Riese: Yeah. You guys missed it because you were not even a fetus yet. I was there for it. I don’t remember it, but I know that it happened, and my mother watched it. And now she’s gay.

Drew: Well, that seems… That’s… I mean, look—

Analyssa: Important work.

Drew: That’s all we need to know. So, speaking of throwing keys, Sophie gets home, flops her keys down, and there is no table there. Honestly, there was a lot of silliness to the scene, but all of it really worked for me. I thought it was so funny.

Riese: I love this scene.

Drew: Yeah. And especially when Sophie asks for red pepper, and Finley’s like, “Dani took that too.” Like full cackle out of me, like very stupid, very funny.

Finley: We got pizza though. There’s an upside.
Sophie: Can you pass me the red pepper, please?
Finley: She took the red pepper.
Sophie: You’re fucking kidding. Really? Jesus Christ!

Riese: Dani took everything. And Finley’s just so good at keeping it light, you know?

Drew: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Riese: You know?

Analyssa: Yeah. She’s very like, “We will figure this out. Like, it’s fine. I know it looks bad. Don’t look over there, but we will fix it.” And I think that’s good. I think also, with Sophie, Finley just commits to… Even though Finley is constantly cracking jokes, she’s never getting deep into her emotions, exactly. She still is committed to acknowledging that the emotions are there, and being like—

Riese: That’s true.

Analyssa: “This must suck, but here’s a joke about it.” Whereas something we had such an issue with last season with Dani was Sophie would be feeling something and Dani would just be like, “I don’t have time for that,” or like, “I can’t engage with that,” or like… You know what I mean?

Drew: Right, right.

Analyssa: She was so removed from that. And Finley doesn’t deal with emotions in a way that is like… She’s not great at this, but she is doing it, which I think is cool of her.

Riese: Yeah.

Drew: Yeah.

Riese: And then we have a wonderful moment, for me, personally.

Analyssa: I knew that you would like this moment.

Riese: Which is, they sort of like… Then they get into it because everything that’s happening. And Finley is like, “I thought I was doing the right thing. You know, like I thought I was saving you.” And then, Finley walks out, and then Sophie, really quiet, just like, “You did.”

Finley: I thought I was saving you, dude.
Sophie: You did.
Finley: Excuse me?
Sophie: Ah… Nothing! What?
Finley: What did you just say?
Sophie: Nothing! What?
Finley: No, no—
Sophie: No!
Finley: No, no, no! You said—
Sophie: Nothing.
Finley: Something! What did you say?
Sophie: No, I didn’t say anything!
Finley: I know. I heard it! What did you say?
Sophie: I didn’t say anything at all!
Finley: What did you say?
Sophie: I didn’t say—
Finley: Tell me!
Sophie: Okay, fine! You saved me, okay? You fucking saved me.
Finley: Okay, so you are saying something nice, but in a mean way.
Sophie: Yeah.
Finley: It’s confusing.
Sophie: Well, I’m confused.

Riese: And that’s the first acknowledgement we’ve had from Sophie since this happened, that she does know that her relationship with Dani was bad, and that Finley did save her from it, although obviously not in the best way to do so. The better way would have been, of course, for Sophie to tell Dani, “I hooked up with Finley. Also, we should break up.” But it’s television.

Analyssa: And we’re long past that now.

Riese: Yeah, we’ve gotten past that.

Drew: Yeah. I also do want to say about this scene that I do think it was within Dani’s rights as the wronged party to take all of the material things.

Riese: Absolutely.

Drew: Like when I broke up with my ex, and like… I mean, I also was moving across the country. But I really just left all of our stuff to her. I was just was like, “Yeah, my TV’s your TV now. Everything’s yours.” And I was like that just feels… I didn’t even do anything bad. I just broke up with someone. But I still was like, “I ended it. You get to keep the stuff.” And I don’t think that has to be the case for everyone. But I think, for me, generally, I’m like, “Ah, yeah. This just seems like you’re sadder than me. You keep the stuff.”

Analyssa: My only counterpoint to that is that Dani is much richer than Sophie.

Riese: That’s true.

Drew: This is true.

Analyssa: Dani could populate a brand new apartment with all sorts of stuff that is new and doesn’t have the memory of Sophie, who she said she never wants to talk about again, in her apartment.

Drew: No, I don’t think Dani’s keeping any of the stuff. I think she’s throwing it away, which yes, obviously—

Analyssa: Okay, that’s worse.

Riese: Maybe she’s taking it to Goodwill.

Analyssa: But then, let Sophie have it.

Drew: Sophie didn’t just break up with Dani though. Sophie fully did not disclose that she cheated. And then they were about to get married, and the person she cheated with showed up there in a fucking hat.

Riese: Dani can take the red pepper.

Drew: Generally, I would be on the side of the person with less money getting to keep the belongings. But, in this situation, I think the way that it was handled was bad enough that I return to my previous stance, which is, person who… The wronged party gets to keep the stuff.

Analyssa: Fine. I won’t argue this, but I hope Sophie knows I was on her side.

Drew: Yeah.

Analyssa: Wait. But there’s one more thing in this scene, which is that Finley asked Sophie to forgive her. And Sophie’s like, “I don’t know how.” So there’s like some—

Drew: Right. Yeah.

Analyssa: Or like stuck, kind of.

Riese: Yeah.

Drew: Yeah. Speaking of people who have great chemistry.

Riese: Nice! Pony play!

Drew: Yeah. Well… My goodness, I think Micah is taking Maribel to ride a horse because of the story about the pony, which is very sweet. And I did say in my notes, “Let them fuck! Ride Micah after!” So, you know, we’ll see, we’ll see.

Riese: Pony play. It’s time for pony play. Everybody knows it. Everybody is at home, and that’s what they’re waiting for.

Analyssa: I think it’s very funny that Maribel is like, “I was just telling a story from when I was a kid.” I really relate to that. I say shit all the time that’s like… People are like, “Oh, you really mean that.” I’m like, “No, I was just talking to hear my own voice.”

Riese: It’s such a proverbial thing, the pony. The ponies are what little kids want and don’t get. It was like… And I felt… I do feel like they didn’t really explore that enough, in terms of, from a humor perspective, but it’s fine. Or pony play.

Riese: Speaking of wish fulfillment.

Analyssa: Nice. That’s a good one.

Drew: Shane, Alice, and Bette take Angie to meet her sister, Kayla.

Riese: I love this for them!

Analyssa: I love this. This is so fun.

Drew: This is really cute. I honestly wish we could spend more time. I wish we could have seen the conversation between Angie and Kayla.

Riese: What the fuck?

Drew: But instead, we like… Instead, we cut to the trio, they’re talking about it. And it’s like, that’s fine. But I was like, “Wait. What are… They look like they’re getting along. I want to spend some time with that.” Hopefully, she’ll be reoccurring, and we’ll get more time later. But I was like, “Wait. I want to get… I want to get inside. You’re very much putting me in Bette’s headspace right now because I want to get inside and hear them. I want to see what my daughter is talking to her sister about.”

Riese: Also, Bette telling Alice to just shut it down, the thing with Nat, is also just an incredibly typical thing for somebody who’s never considered non-monogamy, but probably should, would say to somebody who’s trying to see if poly can work for them and their partner. Because Alice is like, “Well, I can’t really, but…” They have witty banter.

Drew: Yes, no, it was very enjoyable. I always enjoy when the three of them are together.

Riese: They should have put sound like in the FBI or in shows that Drew won’t watch, where people are in the van and they’re listening on the headphones. They should have done that for this. And then we could have gotten both things at the same time.

Analyssa: Yeah, that I could have listened to the trio responding to what Angie and Kayla were saying, which would have been fun.

Riese: Exactly. Like Mystery Science Theater 3000.

Drew: I’m happy for Angie that Bette wasn’t eavesdropping on her though. I’m going to throw that out there.

Riese: Yeah, that’s true.

Analyssa: I did get teary-eyed, embarrassingly, when Angie was like, “That’s my family out there.” I thought it was so sweet.

Drew: Oh.

Riese: Oh, yeah. That’s so cute.

Drew: Yeah. That was really nice.

Riese: Because they are. And Tina wasn’t there though. Where’s Tina?

Analyssa: Tina was not there. Also, I thought it was very silly that Bette was like, “They kind of look alike, right?” It’s like, yeah, they definitely do.

Riese: They’re related.

Analyssa: They’re related, and they’ve been cast to specifically look alike. Yeah.

Riese: Right. Tina wasn’t on the call sheet this week, I guess.

Analyssa: Yeah.

Drew: No. Neither was Rosie.

Riese: Yeah.

Drew: Back for our horseback riders. They’re on the horses, and—

Riese: Majestic.

Drew: The real takeaway from — oh, yes. Very majestic. And the real takeaway from this is that Micah’s like, “We should do this again sometime,” meaning like a date, not ride horses, I think? Unless that’s just going to become a thing.

Riese: No, it’s riding each other like horses.

Analyssa: Riding horses as a date is a very important—

Riese: Bachelor.

Analyssa: … Bachelor. Thank you, Riese. Yes, you knew exactly what I was going to say. Important Bachelor rite of passage. And if the mantle I have to wear is continuing to bring up like extremely heterosexual media on this podcast, that’s fine. I’m queering heterosexuality by watching The Bachelor, actually.

Drew: Honestly, brave.

Analyssa: Thank you so much.

Drew: Very brave.

Analyssa: Anyway. I wish we could see all The L Word pairs on Bachelor dates. They could go to an empty amusement park, where a country singer you’ve never heard of does one song for them. Drive a convertible around Los Angeles, and then go shopping in a really expensive store. They could—

Riese: Romantic.

Drew: That’s the one I always want. Like, okay. Oh, you don’t get picked? Well, you have like $5,000 worth of great clothes now. Who cares about the man?

Analyssa: Yeah. And when you go on The Bachelor or Bachelorette, you have to bring all of your own clothes anyway. So, if you get to go out on a fancy date where you get a bunch of stuff, then that’s fun.

Riese: Yeah, exactly.

Analyssa: You leave with more clothes than you brought.

Riese: Right.

Drew: Yeah.

Analyssa: Speaking of clothes, Tess looks amazing in this next scene. She’s getting out of the car. She’s walking into the poker game. She’s telling two women who want to go to Dana’s Poker Palace that it’s closed for the night because they are doing a private event.

Riese: God, those girls are so pissed, probably, about the Lyft and everything.

Analyssa: For sure, I know.

Riese: And they’re pre-partied. Now they’re just going to go to Akbar.

Drew: That happened to me at—

Analyssa: I was just about to say they’re in a good location. They can walk to some other bar. It’ll be fine. But I would be mad. Also, is it lucrative enough, this poker game, to shut down the bar for all night? Whatever. I don’t need to get into it.

Riese: I think high-stakes poker is very lucrative.

Drew: Yeah. That makes sense. All I know is that once I was going to the bar where they shoot Dana’s and it was closed. It was closed for a private event. And me and the person I was with had to turn around and not go there. And then we just walked around Echo Park.

Riese: Maybe they were filming this scene at that moment.

Drew: No, this was in 2019, so…

Riese: You guys, I think the last time that the three of us were in the same room was at this bar.

Drew: Oh, my God.

Analyssa: Is that true?

Riese: I think so. Because wasn’t that like—

Drew: I think that… Yeah, that is true.

Riese: … It was like in February they had that.

Drew: It is true.

Analyssa: Wow! At Dana’s. What a fun hangout for queer women in LA.

Drew: I know.

Riese: Are we going to Gigi-Dani?

Drew: Yeah.

Riese: Still shipping. I’m just riding this ship all the way into the sunset.

Drew: Yeah. This whole scene is excellent. One, I love how much information we find out about Gigi.

Riese: Yeah.

Drew: We get some family background that her dad doesn’t really accept her. She’s super close with her mom. She mostly gets along with her seven brothers.

Analyssa: So, Gigi and Dani are on a date. They’re like… Well, they’re not on a date.

Riese: Is it officially a date?

Analyssa: They’re hanging out.

Riese: This should be a date.

Drew: Yeah.

Riese: But then, a man comes over and starts flirting with Gigi. And she’s — in Farsi, so I’m assuming, she’s like, “I’m a lesbian. We’re here together.”

Analyssa: And then she… Does she say it in English? Like, “We’re on a date.”

Drew: Yeah. Well, she says to Dani, she was like…

Gigi: Sorry, I know this isn’t a date, but it’s the fastest way to get rid of them.

Analyssa: What was great about not having subtitles in this scene is, as many people, I’m sure, have, have had this experience before. So I knew exactly what was happening.

Riese: Right, yeah. That’s exactly, totally.

Analyssa: We actually don’t need to be speaking the same language. I know exactly what you’re saying to that man, and more power to you.

Drew: We’re speaking the same language, and it is lesbian.

Analyssa: And it’s being asked if you can hang out with a guy while you’re on a date.

Riese: Right.

Analyssa: No.

Riese: Yeah. It happens so much. Still.

Analyssa: So frequently.

Drew: So much.

Riese: It’s so weird.

Analyssa: Dani… I never use this word, but the only word I can use to describe Dani is “shook” after this moment. She’s like, “Uh.”

Riese: Right.

Drew: Yeah. Well, she says — she brings a Bette, because I think she’s starting to feel guilty. So, she’s like, “It’s so nice that you and Bette are together.” And Gigi’s like, “Yeah, it’s not going to work out.” But it’s just like, “Oh!” Gigi’s like, “Forget it. I want to know more about you.” And I’m just like, Gigi’s so bold.

Riese: I know. The boundaries on this woman. She’s like, “You’ve wronged me once. Shame on you, because I’m gone.”

Analyssa: “I’ve moved on.”

Drew: I want her so badly. I wish she was a real person.

Analyssa: I do want her, but I also want to be her. Classic.

Drew: Yes, same.

Analyssa: The way that she’s just so comfortable in this scene. She’s giving food to Dani off her plate, and she’s taking some of Dani’s food, and she’s just like fucking chilling. And I am recently back on the dating scene, and I’m realizing that I’m actually… I thought of myself as a very smooth and chill person, like, gets a flirt in. Absolutely not. Post-pandemic, none of that. And so, I’m trying to channel more Gigi, and leaning in and looking at someone and being like, “I just want to hear more about you.” Like, ooh! The power of that line.

Drew: Yeah. Something that I’ve realized that I do that has really started to work for me, because I am a very anxious person, is that I go into a date assuming it’s going to be awkward. Or I go into a dinner with a new hot person, who I want it to eventually be a date, like it’s going to be awkward. And, so when there’s like an awkward silence or when there’s like a moment of whatever, I just feel very comfortable because I’m not trying to prevent it from being awkward. And then, usually, the other person gets a little bit — because it will be quiet, and I’ll just look at them and smile. And then, they’ll get a little bit like… They’ll find me to be confident, even though secretly in my head, I’m deeply anxious. Anyways, if you want more dating advice like this, you’ll have to listen to my other podcast, Wait, Is This a Date? produced by Autostraddle.com, the website, as well. But yeah. So, anyways, Gigi and Dani, incredible. Also incredible, Tess and Shane. But not incredible, what just happened because this random old guy, I was so confused.

Riese: Why? Why was he allowed in?

Drew: It’s like wait, men are allowed? Yeah, I was like, “Wait. Straight men are allowed at this high-stakes poker? No.”

Riese: Yeah, you sent those two lesbians to White Castle, but you’re going to let this random man in?

Drew: Yeah. It’s terrible.

Riese: Come on!

Drew: Yeah. We don’t know what happened because Shane asks if Tess is okay, and she lies and says yes. She’s clearly lying.

Riese: Yes. I thought he was a cop.

Analyssa: I kind of thought maybe Tess was doing something kind of shady for a sec. I was like, “Oh, maybe there’s like they have some deal where Tess gets a cut.” I was doing all kinds of… The real thing that happens, which we’ll talk about later, it sucks way more than that. But whatever.

Drew: Yeah. Speaking of men on The L Word, Alice is out to dinner with Tom, and they’re kind of having a blast. You know what? Is the show going to finally let Alice be bi in a way that isn’t weird? Because that’d be great. I really… I’m fully on board.

Riese: I love him.

Drew: I’m really excited. And then it was like, “Oh, no. Nat and Marissa are there.” And at first, I was like, “Okay. You need to coordinate. Like there… And also, are there three restaurants in LA? Why does this keep happening?” I was so confused.

Riese: And then, you were like, “Oh! She did it on purpose.”

Drew: Yeah, we find that out in a little bit. But before we find that out, they’re like… Tom talks about struggling to separate sex and emotion. And they’re just talking about polyamory in the way that Tom would. And then, Alice sees that Nat and Marissa are holding hands, and she starts to have a panic attack, and everything’s in slow motion, and the sound drops out. And it’s just like, Jesus Christ, it’s polyamory, and not Saving Private Ryan, you know? It’s really intense.

Riese: But it’s so hard to see the person you love with someone else in that context, I think, if you’re not poly.

Drew: Yeah. I guess I don’t get it. I don’t really experience jealousy.

Riese: I mean, like when Tina saw Bette and a carpenter hold hands in the art museum. It’s like someone’s stabbing you in the heart, even though it’s allowed. So, it’s different because it’s not cheating. So, it’s not like she’s betraying you. She’s doing something you said she could do. But I think it’s hard, which is why I would never do what Alice did. I would not go to the restaurant.

Analyssa: That’s the thing. It’s like… But then, the unspoken—

Drew: Right.

Analyssa: Even if Nat has never laid down boundaries, I do think the unspoken agreement is, “You won’t sit next to me on my date.” Like that just feels like, “Yeah, unless we’ve explicitly said to do that, you could just avoid that and save yourself the drama.” But Alice doesn’t know how to save herself from the drama, ever.

Drew: No.

Riese: Yeah.

Drew: No. Very Alice. All of this feels very Alice. I would have loved to see Nat and Marissa on a date, though. I’d love to know if Marissa’s trans. I’m just like, okay. So, we can only have a trans actress if she looks like a high femme cis woman and barely speaks? Like cool cool cool.

Riese: And this is her second episode, and she’s only supposed to be in three episodes.

Drew: That’s not a great sign.

Riese: I was wanting to say it would be interesting for Nat even to mention that to Alice, but I remembered everything and was like, no, it’s probably better that she didn’t.

Drew: I mean, I would love to… I just… Anyways. It’s fine. Also, I want to clarify that if someone looks like… When I say looks like a cis woman, I mean looks like a cis woman to a cis audience that’s watching. And there’s no value judgment placed on that. It’s just that, in media, it is prioritized that a lot of the trans performers that get cast in things, generally are people who look very, all of our language is limited. And so, it’s like I was going to say binary. I was going to say like, looks cis. I don’t really…

Riese: Pass?

Drew: I don’t know. Yeah. But I don’t even really like to just use that. I sort of hate that that’s the way that the discussion is framed, but…

Analyssa: I mean, Marissa looks like a runway model is the thing, like regardless of like any…

Drew: I’ll put it this way. Marissa does not look like me, or like most of the trans women who I see in queer community. I mean, I don’t know what Marissa’s sexuality is, as last time I checked, Jamie identifies as straight. And like, I do think oftentimes an aesthetic goes along with that, and it just would be really fun to see some trans dykes. Anyways, speaking of trans dykes, Shane is talking about making money, and then we get the backstory, or we find out what happened with Tess and that guy.

Analyssa: Tess went to a back room to do some poker game business, and the guy followed her and groped her. She says, basically she sort of just waited for him to tire of it. We don’t really know exactly what happened, and thank goodness for that, but Shane is very mad instantly and ready to rip this guy’s head off.

Riese: Then Tess said she took money.

Analyssa: Okay. Remember, the last episode when I was like, Tess should watch Molly’s Game? Tessa has watched Molly’s Game, it turns out, because what Tess does to get back at him is take a rake, which is like a percentage of the pot from, I actually have only seen Molly’s Game twice, but I actually don’t really know that I’m doing this correctly, but basically it’s like taking a percentage of the pot from players’ winnings. She’s stolen $4,000 from the game, which makes the game illegal. Like if you are a person who is putting on the game and you take money back, that makes the game illegal, for sure. Like gambling rules are different I think state by state, but a rake is pretty much always bad. Anyway, she said she took $4,000 from him, 2,000 for Tess and 2,000 for Shane, and she’s like, “Please don’t be mad at me. Please don’t fire me. It was a one-time thing. I won’t do it again.” Shane says that she wishes Tess had ripped him off for more. Anyway, I want these two to kiss a little bit.

Drew: I do too, and I’m also wondering if this is going to become a thing. Like are they going to start taking rakes? Are Shane and Tess going to go to jail?

Analyssa: I don’t know.

Riese: Is it going to be like Hustlers? Or is it going to be like Monster?

Analyssa: Yeah, I don’t think it’s going to be like… My guess is they don’t start taking rakes from every game, but that this guy becomes a problem in the way that Felicity’s husband became a problem last season.

Riese: Right.

Drew: Push him down the stairs.

Analyssa: That’s my guess. Honestly, a small murder plot on The L Word? Sure. Why not?

Riese: They did so good with it last time.

Drew: Yeah. Really foolproof.

Analyssa: Isn’t this one supposed to be about righting some of the wrongs of the first series?

Riese: I’m still so confused about whether or not this game is legal, because she says that taking a rake is illegal. That implies the rest of it is illegal. Also literally closing down your bar for a private event that is actually a poker game feels like pretty risky business if you’re doing something illegal? And would Bette participate in the illegal poker game? I really don’t think she would.

Analyssa: I think it must not be illegal until the rake happens.

Riese: Like they get a license for it or something?

Drew: I don’t know.

Analyssa: I think it’s underground only so that they can keep it exclusive. I don’t think it’s underground because it’s going to be like… I think it’s like, we don’t want those two lesbians who were in the alley and now had to go to White Castle to be able to show up at the poker game, you know?

Riese: Yeah. Home poker games are legal in California as long as the host of the game doesn’t take a rake.

Analyssa: There it is.

Drew: There you go, and we love Google.

Analyssa: Thank goodness for Google. Okay. Back at Nat and Alice’s. Alice has finished her dinner with Tom. She’s gone home to Nat. There’s a funny aside about how the babysitter wears Nat’s clothes, and they should talk about that, which I thought was fun. Basically Alice is like, “I can’t do this.” She doesn’t, once again, communicate a ton, which made me actually pretty mad at her. I felt like there was more conversation to be had, even if you stand really firmly and like, “I can not do this,” you know? But Nat is like, “I’ll stop seeing other people. It’s you and me. Like, whatever you feel comfortable with.” Alice is just like, “No, I can’t do it.”

Drew: Alice is right here.

Riese: Yeah. She is right, being like, “No, I don’t want to be with you if you have to suppress.”

Analyssa: I definitely think that she’s right.

Drew: No, no, no, no. You’re right that Alice should communicate about it. I mean, here’s the thing, Alice has been in the right through a lot of this, because I think the show is on Alice’s side, but also I think Alice doesn’t communicate it well, and doesn’t handle any of these things well, and that’s part of the problem, yes. Cut to one of our famous end of Gen Q episode montage.

Analyssa: I love a montage at the end of an episode. Is this the first one of the season? We have the one where Dani was running and she was seeing…

Riese: Oh, “Driver’s License.”

Analyssa: “Driver’s License.”

Drew: Yeah. The “Driver’s License” where we didn’t get the bridge. I re-watched that episode, and I was like, “Oh my God, I can’t believe it didn’t.” What they really should’ve done is when it cuts to the credits, the bridge of “Driver’s License” should have started.

Riese: Every time I hear it now… and it says, “I bet you’re with that blonde girl,” I’m going to think about Drew being like, “Finley is the blonde girl.”

Analyssa: Speaking of Finley in the montage, Sophie gets home and she puts her keys down and they land on a table that Finley has provided somehow. I thought that was so sweet.

Drew: Angie’s looking at photos, Tess and Shane count money, and then we go back to Sophie and Finley and Sophie hugs Finley.

Riese: She kind of leans on her, and Finley is like, “Oh my God.” Honestly, I think that Sophie should go be a bad-ass producer and Finley should just mind the home.

Drew: Yes, absolutely.

Riese: Maybe do some freelance moving. Maybe she’s a mover.

Analyssa: I was just about to say she would be great as like a pair of hands in a moving company.

Riese: Yeah, she can build furniture. Remember she said…

Analyssa: “Uh-huh (affirmative)”

Drew: Ooh, like Magic Mike.

Riese: Yeah. I mean, I haven’t seen it.

Drew: That’s my reference. You haven’t seen…? Wait, have you seen Magic Mike XXL?

Riese: There are different movies?

Analyssa: There’s two.

Drew: Yeah. There’s Magic Mike, which you don’t have to watch, and then there’s Magic Mike XXL, which is one of the greatest movies of all time.

Analyssa: Drew loves Magic Mike XXL.

Drew: Okay. Everyone who has not watched Magic Mike XXL, you have to watch Magic Mike XXL. It is an incredible movie. It is the closest—

Riese: I don’t know if I can watch the sequel without watching the original.

Drew: If you’re like me and can’t, then watch the original, the original is fine. It’s fine. It’s not a great movie, but you’ll get through it. It’s not bad. Then the sequel is, you don’t have to see the original, they’re very disconnected, but the sequel is incredible, and it’s the closest, I think, that like we’ve had in the last 10 years, like an old Hollywood musical, not in like a La La Land, like trying to copy the style, but in our… Like contemporary the same energy of just like… it’s just a positive masculinity. It’s great. It’s so good. You need to watch Magic Mike XXL. We can go back to The L Word, where Gigi is ignoring Bette’s call post-montage, which is a bad choice.

Analyssa: Bette has been Googling Pascal, and finds out also that she has a studio in Topanga, and then calls Gigi, and then Gigi ignores the call, because she’s having such a fun time with Dani.

Riese: Yeah. Probably the first person to ever silence a call from Bette Porter, besides Helena Peabody.

Analyssa: I bet Bette did not love that. Then they’re hitting it off, and Dani’s like, “I had the best time tonight. This is so great.” Then they pull up to her home and there are sirens outside.

Drew: So he’s getting arrested, not Dani?

Analyssa: Yeah, for sure.

Drew: That’s the episode!

Riese: That’s the episode!

Analyssa: That’s it! What did we think?

Drew: I remember you telling me that this was your favorite episode so far, but I unfortunately have to say that this was one of those L Word episodes where like, it was like a real, some L Word episodes I’m like, “This is a great episode.” Some L Word episodes I’m like, “This was not a very good episode.” Then there some where I’m like, “Well, half the storylines I really liked.” I really liked all the Gigi-Dani stuff. I like where some of the other storylines are going, but I was pretty exhausted by this episode, to be honest. I was a little disappointed and a little bit frustrated as shown by this podcast you’ve just listened to, but I’m not giving up hope yet. If at the end of the day, all I get out of L Word: Generation Q, season two is a lot of like top for top flirting and sex. I’ve spent my time doing worse things. I watched six seasons of Glee.

Analyssa: Recently.

Drew: Yeah, like very recently. I’m just fine. I’m happy to be here.

Riese: Well, there was no sex scenes, Drew.

Analyssa: There were no sex scenes.

Drew: I know. Honestly like when someone as hot as Gigi and someone as hot as Dani talk, it’s basically sex.

Analyssa: A thing that I’m realizing about me is that I will have my quibbles with an episode or a movie or a book or whatever, and then if I finish it in a good mood, I’m like, “Loved it. Oh my gosh. Amazing.” If it ends in a way that I think is fun, I’m like, “Oh, incredible piece of media.” Then over the course of a couple of days, I’m like, “Wait a second. Actually, this didn’t really make that much sense.” Or when I’m talking with friends about it, that book Seven Husbands of Evelyn Hugo, I recommended it to three friends and they all read it and were like, “Yeah, it’s good, but what about this weird thing?” I was like, “No, yeah. You’re so right. I agree.” I do still think that 202 is my favorite actually. I think that just like, sort of, Drew, what you were saying, there were some pretty rough, rocky lows in the episode, and then there were some really fun gleeful things. That is sort of like, I have to remember that I get taken by the gleeful parts, in many things, not just in The L Word. I’m like, “Oh, that was great. Good for you guys.”

Drew: Good. That’s a great way to be. That’s a great way to be. Honestly, this is part of the downside of being a critic or hosting a recap podcast is like, if I was watching this with a big group of friends and we were just like hanging out and watching the episode, the stuff that bothered me, I might like be like whatever, but I would also walk away with… The thing is, is that the things that bother me, I’m writing down notes to be like, “Well, this is what I’m going to talk about on the podcast.” It does impact my experience in a way for sure.

Analyssa: Because I’m my own best friend, watching anything for myself feels like watching with a big group of friends, and so I just keep it pushing.

Drew: I like that. It’s very beautiful.

Analyssa: All I have at the end of the day is me and my silly brain.

Drew: That’s beautiful. Riese, what did you think?

Riese: First I have a quick question, which is like, do you think that you could just be a person? Because I was once a person who barely even knew her own sexuality and I was watching The L Word, and I was like, “There’s absolutely no way I can consume another season of this show without somehow writing about my feelings about it in a public forum.” Like I couldn’t just sit there and have feelings about it and keep them to myself. I needed a platform to express them. Like, do you think that you could just sit back and watch the show and not share those feelings? Because I’d be like, for me, like considering just being a layman viewer is probably not even possible.

Drew: That’s a really good point. I mean, what I think I could do is I could watch it and then be like, “I have these takeaways, I’m going to revisit it and think about them for an essay.” But yeah, you’re probably right. I probably would always be responding to The L Word in some capacity, that is where I’m being paid. That’s not the important part, but where — I guess when I watched Glee, I tweeted about it and I wasn’t paid for that. That was just the kindness of my own heart.

Riese: Yeah, that was… I mean that was fucking joy, Drew.

Drew: Yeah, thanks so much. But yeah, you know, I don’t know. I like thinking about things critically. I do enjoy it. I just get frustrated and I get frustrated because I just see the potential, and I know — There’s never been more trans talent, who are professionally working in this industry, and have stories to tell and have just the ability to fulfill those stories in a way that’s successful, and it’s just always a little bit of a bummer to me when we’re stuck sort of making compromises in rooms full of cis people, as opposed to getting to like show the whole scope of who we are. It just is like, it’s just a bummer. I mean, I think things have gotten so much better in the last five years and I think they’ll get better in the next five years, and so I feel optimistic about it, but I’m not the most patient person. I would love for The L Word to be where I wish it was, but it’s not, and that’s why we talk about it. Also we talk about it because it’s fun and hot for the other characters, for the cis characters and for the trans characters that aren’t trans.

Riese: Yeah. I think it was fine.

Drew: That’s your take on this episode? That it was fine?

Riese: Yeah. I think it was mostly good. It’s really nice that everyone is getting mixed up with everyone else.

Drew: Yes. I really like that.

Analyssa: That is fun.

Riese: I think the only things I felt disappointed about so far is I did feel disappointed that Finley and Sophie haven’t had sex yet. I also, I did kind of think that they were going to actually have Marissa be an actively trans character. After this, I’m not sure if she is going to be one.

Analyssa: I mean, the bummer is that she doesn’t even seem to be actively a character. She’s just like… she’s an extra, which is a bummer. I think that that actually is one of the things that I felt most critical about in this episode is how much actual stuff is happening that we don’t get to watch? The conversation between Angie and Kayla, the conversation between Nat and Marissa, I’m sure there’s another one that I’m forgetting because things always go in threes. But like, I don’t know, I was just like, we’re just watching people react to something, but I think the more interesting story is in the thing that they’re reacting to.

Drew: Right. Totally.

Riese: Much like the original “Luck Be a Lady,” though, I think that what’s fun about this episode is that everyone is either single or in turmoil in their relationships, and so there’s a lot of friendship stuff and there’s a lot of fun drama and people dating each other within this group of people that we like, thank God, you know?

Drew: Yes.

Analyssa: My L Word is “listening.” I want to listen to more characters and I want more characters to listen to each other.

Drew: It’s a great word. My L Word is “labor,” because of the emotional labor that it takes to be a trans person in media.

Riese: Mine is Lady and the Tramp.

Analyssa: Nice.

Drew: Incredible.

Riese: A film about love and pasta.

Analyssa: And a T4T dog relationship.

Drew: Yes. That is now canon, as I’ve said. People don’t like it when I say things are canon when they’re not a canon, but it’s canon.

Analyssa: Anything can be canon if you try hard enough and believe in yourself. That’s what canon means. Just willed into being.

Riese: That’s the message.

Analyssa: Okay. Well, bye.

Drew: Well, I feel like I really brought us down, but you know, sometimes—

Riese: But did you? Or did the show?

Analyssa: Were you silent or silenced?

Drew: Great point.

Analyssa: Okay. Well, I love you guys.

Drew: I love you guys, too.

Riese: Love you guys.

Analyssa: Bye!

Riese: Bye!

“Wait, Is This a Date?” Podcast Episode 102: The Chart

This week on “Wait, Is This a Date?” we’re joined by Autostraddle CEO and L Word expert Riese Bernard to discuss: The Chart. That’s right! This episode is all about lesbian interconnectivity — hooking up with friends’ exes, friends hooking up with our exes, and the culture created by all that drama.

Come for the gossip, stay for the emotional processing. And before that enjoy a game that tests Christina’s boundaries: Would U-Haul? (Spoiler alert: she generally would not.)

Thank you for all the nice feedback after our premiere! If you haven’t yet consider giving us a rating or review!

SHOW NOTES

+ Five years ago Riese put together an Old Hollywood chart that is the intersection of all my interests.

+ Here’s the essay I reference where I mention hooking up with my roommates.

+ My crush of the week Mj Rodriguez released a music video for her song “Something to Say”!

+ As someone who has only seen a handful of episodes of The Nanny this montage of Christina’s crush of the week C.C. Babcock was shocking to me when it turned out she and Niles are not both homosexual. (Christina tells me they basically still are.)

Drew: I would be very fine with it existing. I would never add someone else without their permission. But the idea of every time someone was like, “Confirm that you are connected to me,” I’d be like, “Yeah, it’s the life I’ve lived. I don’t mind.” Is that weird? Is that a problem?

Christina: No, because if I wasn’t, I would feel bad not being. I would be like, “Wait, I’m not lying?”

Theme song plays

Drew: Hi, I’m Drew.

Christina: Hi, I’m Christina.

Drew: And welcome to Wait, Is This A Date?

Christina: Wait, Is This A Date? is an Autostraddle podcast asking the big questions. First of all, is it a date? What are dates? Who are dates? Do we like dates? These are the kind of questions that we answer on this here incredibly professional and lovely podcast.

Drew: My name is Drew Gregory. I’m a writer at Autostraddle and a filmmaker and, famously, a trans lesbian.

Christina: My name is Christina Tucker. I’m also a writer at Autostraddle. I am a loud queer on the internet. I am getting better at describing myself as a writer and, famously, a lesbian. That’s us. That’s who we are.

Drew: Yeah. And so our main topic this week is The Chart.

Christina: I just thought it needed a sting. I don’t know. That felt really dramatic, but I think it needed it.

Drew: Yes. No, please, please, please. Thank you, thank you. No, no, no. The correct amount of drama.

Christina: Thank you.

Drew: Yeah. So we’re talking about lesbian interconnectivity.

Christina: I love that phrase because it sounds like you need to restart the lesbians. It sounds like the internet connection isn’t working.

Drew: Yes. It’s very advanced, very futuristic, but also has been around since there’s been lesbians, I think.

Christina: Yeah. I think scholars would say once they found the first lesbian fossils, they found a chart alongside of them carved into the sand. And I think that’s what that movie is about, right? It’s about the chart? That movie with Kate Winslet and the sand fossils?

Drew: Ammonite?

Christina: Yeah, that’s what it’s about.

Drew: I wish Ammonite was about cave women. I’d watch that lesbian movie.

Christina: Well, as I haven’t seen it, I’m going to bravely say that it was. Cool.

Drew: Yeah. Because it’s like we have so many lesbian period pieces, but we’ve never gone back that far. And I think it’s time we do.

Christina: Let’s just keep taking it further back in time.

Drew: Before we get to our main topic, you’re still getting to know us. And I thought that it would be fun to play a game where you guys could really get to know Christina. So our icebreaker for this week is a little game that I call “Would U-Haul.”

Christina: I am, again, so stressed about this. This might just be the way I come into the game. This might be my game mentality, a little high key, a little stressed. That’s okay. We’re all learning.

Drew: I think that’s great. I think that will make you more vulnerable, maybe.

Christina: One of my favorite feelings.

Drew: Just a terror, just an acute terror. So the way that “Would U-Haul” works is I’m going to describe a scenario. Let’s call it Christina fan fiction. And I’m going to pause after each little section to be like, “Okay, Christina, I know that you have never lived with a partner, do not want to live with a partner. But under these circumstances, would U-Haul?”

Christina: And I will either say yes or I’ll say, “I’m all set.”

Drew: If you don’t — well, we’ll see here. But I’m excited. I think I’ve maybe cracked the code.

Christina: You’ve cracked the code? I’m excited.

Drew: Let’s see how long this takes. And if you never do, I think you win? I don’t know how there are winners here.

Christina: I don’t know that there are winners in the game of U-Hauling.

Drew: Well, I don’t know if you’ll agree with that after this. So I’m going to get going.

Christina: Fair enough.

Drew: Okay. So, Christina.

Christina: Drew.

Drew: You’re at your friend’s wedding. Despite the multitude of romcoms you’ve absorbed, you did not go to this wedding thinking you’d meet anyone because, well, this isn’t a romcom. This is the real and normal life of Christina Grace Tucker. You take your assigned seat and are glancing at your phone when you realize a woman at your table is looking at you. She introduces herself as your friend’s former babysitter. She’s remained a friend of the family, but she doesn’t really know anyone there. She looks like mid-forties and has a striking angular face. You start chatting. She offers to get you a drink. And when she stands up, you realize she’s six feet tall, 6′ 3″ in heels. So you know what? I’m just going to stop there and be like, at this point, would U-Haul?

Christina: I’m intrigued. I’m intrigued because I might get laid at this wedding. But so far I’m not U-Hauling anywhere.

Drew: Cool. That’s totally fair. Totally fair. Okay. So you spend the whole wedding getting to know one another. There’s just an immediate spark and immediate chemistry. And yes, you do hook up and the sex is amazing.

Christina: Tight.

Drew: And so this wedding was in Northern California. And so you both extend your stays for three days to fuck and explore and eat at restaurants and fuck. And you offer to split the cost of the now joint room, but she laughs you off and is like, “Obviously not, honey.” So the next three days are magic. You feel your walls tumbling down. You’re falling faster than you ever have. Would U-Haul?

Christina: So just for clarity’s sake, I’m having a hard time imagining a world in which I took three surprise days off of work to hang out with a person I do not know. That seems bonkers. But if I did, good for me. But I’m simply not U-Hauling at this stage. It’s going to be a no.

Drew: Great. Okay. That’s fine. You just met. I get it. I get it. Okay.

Christina: Thank you so much.

Drew: So she returns to New York and you return to Philadelphia.

Christina: That’s where I live.

Drew: And you’re texting all the time. That is where you live and it is where this woman lives. And you’re texting all the time and you see each other multiple times a month. She’s very busy with her job, but she’s quick to buy you a train ticket so you can come see her and stay at her beautiful brownstone in Fort Greene. And then six months pass. And one night when you’re out to dinner, she asks you to move in with her. Would U-Haul?

Christina: And move to New York? I don’t really love New York. No, I’m not moving in at the six months mark. I’m not doing that, no.

Drew: Okay, okay. Totally, totally, totally. Wow. Okay. So you keep dating long distance. She understands that you need time and she is willing to wait for you. Some more months pass. It’s now been over a year. Your landlord tells you that they’re selling your place to a developer who’s putting in condos, so you can’t renew it. You need to find a new place. Your now girlfriend tells you that no pressure, but her offer still stands. Would U-Haul?

Christina: Okay. At this point, I would U-Haul for a couple of reasons.

Drew: Yay! Okay. Please tell us.

Christina: Primarily, in a world in which my landlord sold my house to develop it, my landlord is currently my best friend, so that seems like something has gone wrong in our friendship. And I might want to just leave Philadelphia anyway. And if I get to move in with my girlfriend over here, that seems fine. That’s fine. Totally fine. But yeah, I think I might need an external force like a mean landlord.

Drew: That’s so — okay. I did think that you would need to need housing to get there, so I’m glad I knew that.

Christina: Yeah. That’s exactly what has to happen to me first.

Drew: Well, I’m glad to know what it’s going to take. So theoretically, if you weren’t kicked out, how much more time?

Christina: Honestly, that could have gone on for a long time. Philly and New York are not even that far from each other. I got space over here. We’re bouncing back and forth. We’re having good times. I could have let that roll for a long time until I guess Shoshana turns into the worst person I know.

Drew: I didn’t know that Shoshana owned your house. Well, there you go.

Christina: There we go. Wow, that was thrilling.

Drew: Well, thanks for playing.

Christina: I’m stressed, to be clear.

Drew: And I’m glad that I know… Maybe if you’re ever, so if anyone’s ever dating you and wants you to move in, maybe your girlfriend told Shoshana to sell the house for the sake of your relationship.

Christina: Truthfully the fastest way — someone would just have to talk to Shoshana and be like, “Just kick her out.” And then she’d be like, “Yeah, sure. Of course.” That would be how it happened, even if she didn’t sell the house. Someone would just be like, “Can you just kick her out so she’ll just get over it and move in with me?” And she would say yes. A hundred percent she would do that. That’s what friendship is.

Drew: I love that.

Christina: Yeah, that’s really beautiful.

Drew: Well, I feel like we learned a lot about you.

Christina: Thanks. I feel like I learned a lot about myself, too. Threat of homelessness is really the thing that keeps me moving in any circumstance, I guess. Wow.

Drew: Well, that’s great.

Christina: That was really thrilling. I’m equally thrilled to move into our main segment because I think talking about lesbian connectivity with this guest, with this special guest, I think it’s going to be amazing, Drew. How are you feeling?

Drew: I’m so excited. This is an expert. And by that, I mean an L Word expert, but also a little bit of an expert in the topic at hand.

Christina: I think two things can be true, my friend. I think two things can be true indeed. Do we want to introduce our guest or do we want our guest to introduce themselves?

Drew: I would love our guest to introduce herself.

Christina: Guest.

Drew: I will say that our guest is the one and only Riese Bernard.

Christina: Guest, speak.

Riese: Hi, I’m Riese. And it is weird to be the guest!

Christina: Yeah, it is.

Riese: I had to not say anything. I didn’t even do it. I did say things. I had to sit here silently.

Christina: And you were really brave. And your faces were appreciated.

Riese: Thank you so much.

Christina: Though this is obviously an audio medium, I want all of our listeners to know that Riese was making some great reaction faces during “Would U-Haul.”

Riese: There’s many ways to be heard. You know what I mean? That’s what I always say. I am the CEO of Autostraddle.com. And I’m also on an undefeated kickball team. And that’s me. I have a dog named Carol. And I have dated people.

Christina: Congrats on the kickball!

Riese: Thank you. I’ve been involved with people.

Christina: Great. Loving that. That’s great to bring to this, this here dating podcast. That’s really good.

Riese: Yeah. I think that… Is there anything else?

Drew: No, I think that’s great, Riese.

Christina: Whatever you want to share.

Riese: I really like raspberries, the fruit raspberries, and swimming pools.

Christina: As opposed to…

Riese: You know when someone goes like…

Drew: It’s like when you blow. Yeah.

Christina: Oh. Those are disgusting, so I simply just evacuated them from my mind.

Riese: Yeah. And that’s all.

Christina: Great.

Drew: Well, I immediately thought of you for this topic.

Christina: That’s true.

Drew: Because first of all, obviously, queer women and non-binary people in lesbian community have been like, I don’t know, having sex with people who their friends have had sex with since long before The L Word was ever a series. But I do feel like The L Word solidified a certain cultural idea of the chart with Alice Pieszecki. And so I felt like you would have a lot of insight into this topic.

Riese: It’s true. Two of the writers, I want to say, of The L Word had this actual chart of them and their friends they were drawing on the wall or whatever. And Guinevere Turner, I think, was one of them. She talked to us about it, that they had built this. Because obviously, everyone in that writer’s room had fucked other people in the writer — you know, and the extended web of that generation of lesbians in Los Angeles. And so they saw that and they were like, “Let’s put it in the show.” And some of them are on the chart. Like, some of the people who … like, actual people are on the chart as a joke.

Christina: That’s incredible. That’s how you know you’ve made it.

Riese: Isn’t that cute?

Christina: That would be thrilling for me.

Riese: And so if you haven’t seenThe L Word, first of all, congrats. Second of all, it becomes the centerpiece of one of our lead character, Alice’s, apartment. She has it all over her wall. And it also is the name of a website that they started called ourchart.com that flopped. And the idea … And it’s in the pilot, I think. In the very first episode, Alice starts talking about how everybody’s connected, because everybody’s hooked up with this person. And I can connect you, like you’re probably no more than two degrees away from me. And that was true. Like, even with Dana, who had very limited experience because she was a closeted tennis player, they still were able to connect her. And that’s real life because it’s true.

Christina: That’s culture. Yeah. That’s what culture looks like.

Riese: That’s culture. That’s queer culture right there. And now everyone makes their own charts.

Christina: Yeah. So that was going to be my next question, was have either of you made a chart? Because I don’t think I have, and I am kind of now thinking like, what was this last year sitting at my house for if I didn’t make a chart? Like, what was the point of that, really?

Riese: I think I’ve done it in my journal, just as like … Because I like, I don’t know, organizing information, I guess, as a thought exercise.

Christina: Yeah, I think that’s also why I am surprised that I haven’t done it. I like the idea of categorizing things.

Riese: Right. Yeah. Because it is interesting. I don’t know why it’s so interesting, but it is. It’s interesting to be like, wow, all of these people, they’re connected. It’s wild.

Drew: On the show, once ourchart.com is invented, they have an actual chart that people can add stuff. And I feel like something that you joked about on To L and Back, and now people say all the time is like, if this existed in a real way, no one would put their names on it, no one would feel comfortable putting their names on it.

Riese: You would.

Drew: I would. I would be very fine with it existing. I would never add someone else without their permission. But the idea of like, every time someone was like, “Confirm that you are connected to me,” I’d be like, “Yeah, it’s the life I’ve lived. I don’t mind.” Is that weird? Is that a problem?

Christina: No, because if I wasn’t, I would feel bad not being … I would be like, “Wait, I’m not on it? Like, I’m sorry, what?” No, that would actually send me into a light moral panic about who I am as a person, what I’m doing. Am I interesting? Do people like me? That could go dark very fast. No, I got to be on the chart. I have to be on the chart.

Drew: Cause you wouldn’t. Right?

Riese: No.

Drew: Yeah.

Riese: But also, I am elderly. So…

Christina: I always say that about you.

Riese: Yeah. And so as you advance in age, you also advance in privacy and also in, I would say, being known as a person who owns this company, that all these people. It’s like … But when I was younger, like when it first came … I remember when it first came out, I did request a connection to somebody who I had actually hooked up with and who was my friend, obviously. And they just left me hanging.

Christina: Oh, left you on read.

Drew: Ooh.

Riese: Yeah. Because they were like, “Why would I put who I’d hooked up with on the internet?” And I was like, “Yeah, totally.” I was just adding you as a friend.

Christina: LOL, kidding.

Riese: But that’s also what everyone did. Eventually that’s what we did. We just added people who we were friends with. And everyone was also added to this one woman named Beth. She was like the MySpace Tom of Our Chart.

Christina: That’s incredible, actually.

Riese: But also you could connect … Like, they were always showing, like, you could connect to Kate Moennig or Leisha Hailey or whatever. But yeah, I mean, I would never … I think it’s private information. And I think it’s astounding that in The L Word,not only does Alice have an entire radio show where all she does is talk about who her friends are fucking, using names, and some of them are famous. As aforementioned, there was a very famous tennis player. But she also then started a whole website where people … where allegedly, Shane has confirmed, has clicked yes. Does Shane even have a computer?

Christina: No. Like, what does Shane … Like, every morning wakes up and has her coffee and is like, “Better go through my requests.”

Riese: Yeah.

Christina: That’s not happening. Come on now.

Riese: “Yeah. Yeah, I did. Yeah, I think so. All right, sure.” You know?

Christina: Yeah. I do think something about the formality of confirming the chart doesn’t ruin it because it is nice to know that, yes, these are all confirmed things, but part of the fun of the chart and having a handwritten sprawling chart on your wall is like, this is gossip that isn’t vetted and maybe never happened, and maybe someone would come over to your house and be like, “Why am I on the wall with that person? I never actually hooked up with them.” And then you know, “But I did actually hook up with them and I’m not connected to them.” Then you get this whole other part. I think that gossip bit of it is also very important, and the fact that untruths will necessarily make their way in there feels like a crucial part of the chart to me.

Riese: And they do.

Christina: Yes. They have to.

Riese: And that’s the other thing, is that the chart that was built by our friend who built the chart was just people who had kissed. So it was a very much a free for all.

Christina: That’s a big chart.

Riese: Yeah. But I do remember complaining to her about it once, because I was like, “This thing’s on there. That’s not true.” And it was true. It was just that my girlfriend had cheated on me.

Christina: And so in best we see some of the repercussions of a chart. So I think, yep, we’re taking both of the good and the bad here.

Riese: Yeah.

Drew: Speaking more broadly, I’d love to talk about the idea of our friends hooking up with our exes and us hooking up with our friends’ exes, because that’s really what has to happen, right? I mean like, or it can be that a bunch of people have random hookups and there’s no emotional attachment anywhere. But I do think what happens often in queer community, because we can just be pretty incestuous, is that people have like full-on relationships with people who have had relationships with their friends. How do we feel about that? On both ends?

Christina: I feel very fine about it, I think. Granted, I came from a city, the grand city of Boston, that had a pretty … What’s the word? Garbage queer community. So it wasn’t a place … Like moving to Philly, I really saw the difference between … I was like, “Oh, wow.” I had years of being in this place that had kind of a shitty community where no one was really connected. And you kind of knew everybody, but you’re like, “Ugh, her again. She’s going to do Eminem at karaoke again. Like, why?” To having an actual community where everybody knows and gets and respects and likes each other for the most part, not to say that we are without drama over here in Philadelphia. But it also just seems so unavoidable. I don’t know — how does it not happen? Like, in what world does it not happen?

Riese: Yeah.

Christina: I don’t know.

Riese: It seems like heterosexuals avoid this because they often have genders separated in their social groups or whatever. So it’s not like you’re … Like, if you break up with your boyfriend, it’s not like, do I still get to hang out with your friends? You know? Because, no, of course not. You never did. You were watching sports ball. Yeah.

Christina: Right.

Riese: And in queer communities, that happens. But yeah, I think it’s unavoidable. I mean, I think especially back in the day when The L Word was doing the chart, of course, when the community was even smaller, you could either date your friends’ exes or date nobody. But I think it is really hard, you know? Like, it’s difficult when your friend hooks up with your ex or dates your ex, but I would never want someone to give up their chance at love or happiness with somebody because I used to date them, even if it’s hurtful. It hurts and it’s hard and it might mean I need to take a little space from those people, but I wouldn’t want to deny them that opportunity to be together if that’s what made them both happy. Because I wouldn’t want them to hold back on my account, and then… That doesn’t sound any better, you know?

Drew: Yeah. Do you feel different if it’s not like … I think it’s very easy to be like, “Well, if they’re in love, I don’t want to stop beautiful, pure love.” Whereas I think sometimes that’s not the situation, where it’s like, “Oh, you fucked my ex-girlfriend,” is a very different, I think, scenario of sorts. Do you feel differently if it’s a drunken hookup as opposed to, “Oh, they actually had feelings and wanted to develop those?”

Christina: Insightful question.

Riese: I think in the beginning, that is often the assumption. When you’re like, “Oh, you hooked up with my ex,” and often that’s just the beginning of what will become a relationship. You know? I don’t know. I guess if your ex was really, really terrible.

Christina: Yeah. That’s what I’m feeling too.

Riese: And it’s like your best friend.

Christina: Yeah. So much counts on what the ex and the friend situation is.

Riese: Yeah.

Christina: Like, if we’re acquaintances, go off. I don’t really care. Do you, simply. Do you.

Riese: Yeah. As they say. You know?

Christina: As they say.

Riese: I guess it’s, again, it’s a thing that probably would be uncomfortable and unpleasant, but that doesn’t mean that it’s unethical, necessarily. I feel like there’s probably a waiting period, maybe, but it depends on your relationship. I mean, a lot of people are in open relationships, or they say they’re in open relationships, or…

Christina: Well, that is true. Yeah.

Riese: You know?

Drew: Important distinction.

Christina: As always, I love to say context is king. And I feel like especially in circumstances like that, I think for me it might be easier if my friend was like, “Oh, we’re just fucking,” I feel like that would be mentally easier for me to deal with than like—

Riese: Interesting.

Drew: Oh.

Christina: Oh, you brought feelings into it? That’s unfortunate for me. But I really — I’m having a hard time finding a scenario in my brain in which I would really be upset for longer than, I don’t know, 20 minutes until I forgot. I’m kind of like a goldfish in that way, honestly. A brain like Swiss cheese.

Riese: That’s great for you.

Christina: Sometimes.

Drew: Yeah. I don’t know. It’s interesting. I definitely feel the opposite in the sense that if someone had feelings—

Riese: “I definitely feel totally differently.”

Christina: Super cool. I hate it, but.

Drew: No, no, no. The core principle of it, I think I feel the same, but as far as which would bother me more, I think when there’s feelings involved, I’m not going to get in the way of true love. Even to the point where if I was in a relationship with someone and they left me for a friend and they wanted to be together in a really real way. Obviously I’d be hurt and sad and breakups, whatever. But I think I would be able to be fine with it.

Christina: You wouldn’t be like, I can hear the “This Will Be” montage playing at the end of this in the rom com.

Drew: I never want to be—

Christina: It has to happen to somebody.

Drew: Yeah, I know when I’m not the protagonist and if I’m not the protagonist of that story, I can accept it and move along. Whereas if it’s just sex, sometimes it’s like, couldn’t you—

Riese: Was that necessary?

Drew: Yeah. Right. Was it necessary? Couldn’t you have had that orgasm on someone else?

Riese: Or not had an orgasm on someone else.

Drew: Sure. Sure. But I still wouldn’t be that bothered by it, but I also know that that’s… Yes, there’s so much interconnectivity, but I know for a fact that a lot of it has led to drama and that some people do not feel as cool about it as maybe we do. It definitely is… I don’t know. Has there been examples where you’ve been the hurt party? Where your ex or someone who you’re currently dating leaves you for, or hooks up with a friend? And how did you go about that?

Christina: I haven’t had it happen to me. Had we not been in Paul Blart Mall Cop for the last year, I imagine it probably would have happened sometime in this year of me living in Philly. It probably will happen sometime in the future. But no, it really hasn’t occurred to me yet. So I guess I’m also just fantasy spinning. I love to fantasy spin.

Riese: I mean I’ve had someone I dated hook up with a friend.

Drew: Are you pointing at me?

Riese: I’m pointing at you!

Christina: Okay I thought that was what you were doing.

Drew: Okay it’s funny because the night after it happened the first time you actually started talking about this topic and I thought you were talking about me and I was mortified. You were actually saying basically what I said earlier like you know when it’s just a hook up why do you have to do that and I wanted to be like but I have feelings! I’m embarrassed that I have feelings but I do!

Riese: Yeah.

Drew: But you had no idea. And you were not actually verbally subtweeting me.

Riese: No.

Drew: You just had no idea. And it was like the universe making me punished. In my defense you’d been broken up for awhile!

Riese: That’s true.

Drew: I want to clarify that you were not with this person. You had been broken up for awhile. I also think something that’s interesting to me that is complicated, and I have since worked through in the year plus whatever, is that I think — blame The L Word, blame myself, but I had this feeling of “I am not in our friend group. I am not accepted as a lesbian in this world that is predominantly cis, until I hook up with someone in this friend group,” which — that wasn’t why, I did have feelings for the person I hooked up with, but it was definitely a part of it that I’ve had to grapple with that I was, I don’t know, that I was putting a certain sort of acceptance onto my sex life, and it was leading me to make poor choices because I was trying to make a point of something.

Riese: Be on the chart.

Drew: Yeah. I was literally trying to be on the chart. And I wouldn’t have admitted that at the time I don’t think, but looking back, it was very much in my brain of if we were to make another chart, I need to be on it.

Christina: I got to get on that chart.

Drew: Just wanting to be on the chart and part of that interconnectivity. Which is a little fucked up and weird! And led to bad choices. But it was very much on my mind. So I do think when I hooked up with your ex I was like well 1) I want to.

Christina: It’s what I would like to do so I’m doing it.

Drew: It’s what I would like to do. But then I think I didn’t register that you’re my friend and I would potentially be hurting you and that you have feelings too even though I had created a narrative around myself as a trans person and as a younger person or whatever where I was like well I am vulnerable to harm but this friend of mine isn’t. Which isn’t the case! You’re a human being and you have feelings. But I don’t know that’s definitely where my brain was at. But then the minute you started talking about it even though you didn’t know what was going on I did feel a level of like — I mean, I did still hook up with the person again that night and the next day so I didn’t feel that bad about it but I did feel a little bad about it.

Christina: Yeah. But I think that makes sense that being a part of a new community and feeling like a part of arriving to that community is, oh, I hooked up with a person in this community. I still feel that way about living here. I know whoever I sleep with at some point, God willing in the future, it’ll be a thing. It’ll be like a conversation starter because most of my friends get to make fun of me for never dating and never doing anything. And it’s going to be like, oh my God, who was the person Christina finally decided to have sex with after living here for so long and not doing shit about it? What’s going on? I think that is weirdly a part of, not our community, I don’t want to say it goes for everyone. But I do think that little instinct you had makes sense. I get that.

Drew: Yeah.

Riese: But also I think there is the idea, why couldn’t you just go hook up with someone else? But sometimes it doesn’t really feel like you could. You know what I mean?

Christina: Yeah. I think that totally makes sense. I think my reaction to people wanting to hook up with me would probably also be, “Oh, I simply must crawl into a cave now. Goodbye. I have to go. That sounds so scary. Yikes. G2G. Catch you later.” But I think all of that makes a lot of sense. And I think it’s, I don’t know, it’s this idea of how much social and cultural cache we put on this idea of hookups and hooking up with people that we know. And I don’t know, it’s a scarcity mindset I feel like we get into sometimes. It’s now or never. I gotta do it.

Riese: Yeah.

Drew: Yeah. I’m really working on in post-pandemic times, because I think what ends up happening is I end up hooking up with people who I don’t want to hook up with and not hooking up with people I do want to hook up with.

Riese: Yeah. For sure.

Drew: Who doesn’t make some mistakes when they’re 25? Or whatever.

Christina: I simply made none. So no mistakes, a perfect year. 10/10. 25, would do it again. Just kidding. Never in my life.

Drew: But I do think in moving forward, I feel much, and then we’ll see, this is all theoretical so far, but I do feel better about being able to say no, being able to trust that things will happen moving forward. And I mean, it’s interesting also thinking about what I said at the beginning of being like, if the chart existed, I would confirm the things and want it to be accurate. And it’s like, how much growth have I actually done because of where is that coming… Where is that performative? I do it in essays, right? I try to only do it when I have a reason to, but it’s not a coincidence that a bit ago, my essay about dating during the pandemic, whatever, that I dropped in that I had sex with my roommates.

Riese: When I was reading that I was like, aha.

Drew: Because I want people to know, because I guess I feel again that it establishes me in the community. And in that scenario, they’re my close friends, and so that wasn’t why I hooked up with them, but I definitely had the thought. I definitely had the thought afterwards of, “Well now I’m really on the chart.” Like, just get that out of my brain.

Riese: Now, you really are in the chart. That is true.

Christina: You really are.

Riese: You’re really in the chart. Really deep in there.

Drew: The three people I hooked up with were pretty good people to really establish myself in there.

Riese: Yeah. You were getting right in with the hub.

Christina: Ever the overachiever over here. Yeah. I think that was going to be my next thought was how are we thinking about reentering our community spaces that we have been out of for a year? And what does that look like? And what are we doing? Who are we seeing? How are we doing? What’s been happening? I don’t know, guys. It seems nuts.

Riese: I feel similarly that I have spent a lot of time thinking about how many sexual encounters I didn’t want to have, but said yes to. It’s a really high amount. And I feel like I have gotten better with that within myself, but I’m also the opposite where I have become so private about that stuff in more recent years. It’s weird. I was looking at the dating series and I was like, “Oh, I could write something.” But I was terrified to do it. You know what I mean? And I don’t know if that’s because I’ve been through now, what, four public long-term relationships that all failed in front of everybody? Or if it’s… I don’t know, but it feels very weird. Because I used to have a blog when I was younger, where I wrote about everything, but also I always wanted to respect people’s privacy. So a lot of things were just alluded to, but yeah. I don’t know.

Christina: Is the problem the internet then? Is that what we’re saying?

Riese: The internet is the problem.

Christina: Interesting. Yeah. Interesting.

Riese: To go back to what you’re talking about before, when you told me that you had hooked up with my ex my heart did go erh really fast but also it isn’t really — that’s sort of the epitome of it that yes I’m going to have an emotional reaction to that but also that’s not your problem or your responsibility and like that’s just life. You know what I mean? It’s possible with a lot of stuff like exes or I did finally think of somebody who hooked up with someone I liked. Anyway. It’s like I have feelings about it and I think it’s okay to have those feelings and to feel really shitty about it if you want to, but that doesn’t mean that I would forbid it or get mad at someone for doing it. And I think that goes for a hookup as well as a relationship, honestly.

Christina: Yeah. I guess what I end up thinking about is, I don’t know, how long do I expect people to be beholden to my feelings and to me? And yes, I am obviously the main character, but it’s of the story that I am telling about myself. And it doesn’t mean that other people have to be my supporting characters in that story. That’s not how life works. It’s fine if I have a feeling even if I don’t like it, or even if it’s uncomfortable. It doesn’t necessarily mean that anyone has done something wrong. It’s just, I am having a reaction to it. All feelings are not bad, which is huge for me to say out loud.

Drew: That was really huge.

Christina: Huge for me to put on the record.

Drew: I think it’s worthwhile to consider that though, right? And so like I don’t regret doing that even though I knew that it probably hurt you and I still don’t regret it because I knew how I felt at the time and whatever. But there are definitely scenarios where I think I would choose not to do it because I’m like, okay, it’s not that I can’t do this. It’s not that it’s objectively wrong, but I do know that I am going to hurt someone I care about, and I am making the choice that, in this moment, this just isn’t worth it for me.

Riese: Yeah, for sure.

Drew: And I think people can make that choice. They don’t have to, but I do think they can make that choice.

Riese: Yeah.

Christina: That’s really beautiful.

Riese: I have made that choice before too.

Christina: Yeah. I mean, a lot of the times I feel like the choice ends up being, “Hmm, do I want this to be complicated or not?”

Riese: Right.

Christina: Removing feelings and anger, it’s like, do I want this to be a discussion? Or do I just simply choose to not have that conversation? Maybe go to bed instead.

Riese: Yeah. Just opt out of that. But also I think that’s also part of saying no to things I don’t want to do, which I haven’t been very good at in the past.

Drew: Right.

Christina: Yeah. That’s one of my biggest skillsets.

Riese: It sounds like it, that’s amazing. You’re my hero.

Christina: It is good. A lot of the time it’s really good. And the problem is that people always say that. And then I’m like, it’s amazing that I can say no to things. So then I’m like, but do you ever say yes to a single thing ever in your life? And that’s where we have a problem, but we work on it.

Riese: Do you?

Christina: I told myself I was going to come out of the pandemic and say yes to more stuff. TBD on that one. TBD.

Drew: I feel optimistic. I said this last week, I’ll say it again this week, I feel optimistic about your future and I feel optimistic about Riese and I having new boundaries. And we can all go out into the post-pandemic world better versions of ourselves.

Christina: Yes. Live, laugh, love, girlies!

Drew: But we probably will still date our friends’ exes, because it’s just going to happen.

Riese: Yeah. Everyone is free to hook up with any of my exes, even the really bad one, or date them, that’s fine. I want everyone to be happy and to live their truth.

Drew: I want any of my friends to date my most recent ex because then maybe we’d be in a friend group together and that’d be really nice.

Riese: Right. Yeah, that sounds sweet.

Drew: That’s where I’m at, with that whole thing.

Christina: Everyone’s really on brand. I don’t really have a recent ex for anybody to date, so go off, I guess? Everybody, yes, do you. Really proud. Well, now it’s time to move into Crush Corner, the place where we talk about the pop culture we’re consuming, who we have crushes on in that pop culture we’re consuming. It’s a nice short moment of crushing. Drew, do you want to start us off?

Drew: Sure. So watching the third and final season of Pose has brought up old feelings that are now new feelings for Mj Rodriguez.

Christina: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah.

Drew: There’s like a running bit throughout the show where her fashion is made fun of and called clockable or whatever. But to me it’s just very dykey. I know that she’s not gay, but I think Blanca on Pose just has the best dykey fashion and MJ’s so hot and I just was… And she’s just been posting on Instagram extra hot pictures and it’s just been really great. So I would say Blanca Evangelista/MJ Rodriguez is my crush of the week.

Christina: Incredible. Riese, do you have a crush for us this week?

Riese: I’m still trying to think of one.

Christina: That happens. It happens. I can go. You don’t have to go. It’s fine.

Riese: You go.

Christina: As many folks know, The Nanny was added to HBO Max. It’s a banging show. I’d just like to throw that in just for the listeners. Jokes on jokes on jokes. It’s so horny. I genuinely did not clock how horny it was when I was a child, that’s probably for the best. And yeah, Fran Fine, absolute icon. Absolute legend. But no, I’m taking it a step further and I’m being me and I’m saying C.C. Babcock, the lunatic wasp who is downtrodden and mocked every single second of The Nanny is my crush of the week. She’s stacked. She’s got a lot of suits that I really like. I mean, they’re all too long because the nineties were a curse, but she’s really working it. I’m loving her energy. She’s got a slight desperation in her eyes that I just think is real chef’s kiss. So C.C. Babcock, this one’s for you, babe.

Riese: I haven’t thought of anyone yet.

Drew: That’s okay. You don’t have to have a crush this week.

Christina: You don’t have to.

Riese: Okay.

Christina: Sometimes we just don’t have crushes in a week. That’s happened.

Riese: Yeah, that’s fine.

Drew: I’ve never not had a crush, but I support you.

Riese: I’ve had a girlfriend for one and a half weeks, so I’m pretty focused on that.

Christina: That takes a lot of time.

Drew: Crush of the week is your week-and-a-half girlfriend.

Riese: Is my girlfriend of a week and a half. Yeah, that’s my crush.

Christina: That’s really on brand actually. Thanks so much for that. Thanks for just bringing that energy to the space.

Riese: It’s weird to talk about dating and relationships again, out loud, to anyone.

Drew: Yeah.

Christina: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Riese: Besides my therapist.

Christina: Yeah.

Drew: Yeah. I mean, I feel like I talk about it all the time, but I get that for you, that it’s weird to talk about it out loud again.

Christina: It’s weird for me to talk about dating that isn’t Drew’s dating life. I’ll say that. It’s weird to talk about myself.

Drew: Yeah. That’s what I love. I love having other voices in here. It’s so fun to not just be going on. I mean, to be fair, one of my roommates is pretty… I mean, my roommates are in a relationship with each other, but they’re poly and one of them, especially, is still very much like a serial dater and we really bond over that. So I’m not completely alone in these conversations, but it is always fun to get my friends who maybe talk about dating a little less to give their feedback.

Christina: Yeah. I imagine if you were having no outlet for your dating conversation, I would get a lot longer voice memos.

Drew: It is true.

Christina: Yeah.

Riese: I’m so glad that Drew and I got to process our relationship here on this podcast.

Christina: Yeah this was really thrilling. For me a really thrilling experience. I feel really alive in the spirit. I feel really in community and of community right now. I’ll say that.

Drew: I want to promise that every week isn’t going to have me processing something from my personal life just the first two episodes, maybe future episodes, definitely future episodes. But I don’t think every week.

Christina: I want listeners to know I’m making an incredibly skeptical face.

Drew: Thanks so much, Riese, for being here. We got to process, we got to laugh. Just a real good time.

Christina: Yeah, thanks for bringing your fun, open vulnerability into the space. Thanks for bringing in this great couch. I see Carol went into her home. Good job, Carol.

Riese: Carol loves girls.

Christina: She’s like, “Yeah, why are you bothering me?”

Drew: Do you want to share your socials and anything you want to share?

Riese: Yeah. You can follow me on Twitter, @autowin. I want to get a lot of followers, but I don’t really send tweets or… But I could. I tweet, occasionally. And then also on Instagram, I’m @autowin. And then also I have a podcast called To L and Back, that’s also on Instagram. This podcast is on autostraddle.com, a great website started by a group of friends that were all interconnected. And now here we are finding new ways to interconnect every day with love and kindness and friendship.

Christina: Honestly, we might just keep that bit forever. That’s great.

Drew: Thanks, Riese. Well, the last thing, we like to check in because we really are here for clear and honest communication and directness and also trying to change some patterns within lesbian communities. So we just like to double check, so I just wanted to ask, was this a date?

Christina: Were we just on a date?

Riese: No.

Drew: No. Riese is shaking her head no.

Christina: Okay. Riese is shaking her head. Okay, good to know.

Riese: No, it is simply 4:00.

Christina: Simply 4:00 in the afternoon. Okay.

Riese: Also, as I aforementioned, I’ve had a girlfriend for a week and a half, so…

Drew: I’m really, I’m so excited for you. I really, I support this.

Riese: I’m excited for me too.

Christina: Okay, good to know. All right. It’s not a date and for really good reasons, I say.

Drew: Yeah, sometimes your friend tells you that they’re dating someone and you’re like, cool. And sometimes your friend tells you that they’re dating someone and you jump up and down like you just saw something exciting on the internet and that is what I did when I got that text. So I support this. As the kids say, I ship it.

Riese: Thank you so much, Drew. You were the first person I told.

Drew: I’m honored.

Riese: And then my mom was the second. And then Christina was the third.

Christina: Wow. Huge day for you.

Drew: Thank you so much for listening to Wait, Is This a Date? You can find us on Twitter and Instagram @waitisthisadate. And you can also email us at waitisthisadate@gmail.com

Drew: And you can find me on Twitter, Instagram, and TikTok @draw_gregory. And you can find Autostraddle on all social medias @autostraddle.

Christina: And go visit autostraddle.com, because it’s the reason we’re all here today.

Drew: Thank you all so much. And, you know, see you next week.

Christina: Yeah. We’ll absolutely see you next week. And we can’t wait.

Drew: Yeah. And you know, maybe next week, maybe next week will be a date.

Christina: Hey, maybe it will be! Wilder things have happened.

Drew: Except you know what? I also think it’s important to clarify to the listener that if you ask someone if something’s a date or not, we probably should take that as sort of like a moving forward that I don’t think every time you see someone you should… That’s not really direct communication as much as it is like not really respecting someone’s boundaries. And you know, we do like boundaries here at Wait, Is This a Date?

Christina: The gayest thing about this podcast is that the outro is a boundary.

Drew, in a voice memo: Do you know what I realized? I’ve never had a friend hook up with an ex of mine or date an ex of mine. I’ve done it the other way, but that stereotype has never applied to me in the direction of my exes. And I think I’ve had some pretty good exes. I don’t know why my friends have never been interested in them. I think I actually would want it. Is that weird? Is that weird that if I broke up with someone, the idea of my friend dating them would be sort of great, depending on the situation, I guess. But usually, yeah.