Let’s make some noise for the bottoms in the house! (It’s me, the bottom in the house.) Bottom Culture has become quite a Thing™ Online as of late! But what does it really mean to be a bottom? Why has the culture decided bottoming is synonymous with being afraid to ask for what you want? And how does one go about deciding if they like bottoming?!

With all these questions rattling around our minds, demanding answers, Drew and I knew there was only one person we could go to for a rounded, passionate conversation about bottoming: The Gay Chingy AKA Chingy Nea, AKA The Bottom Supreme. Chingy is one of the best people I know writing and tweeting today, and as a bottom myself, I am honored to call her my leader. Chingy helps us tease out what it means to be a bottom, why she hates “smol bean” bottom culture, your body as hole, and your body as whole. It is a really beautiful conversation, if I do say so myself! Please know that I am aware that I say “gorgeous” approximately three thousand times this episode, and I am seeking help for my condition. (The condition is speaking like 57 year old white gay man.)

And! This week’s game involves me guessing if the complicated plots Drew describes belong to a movie or a dream she had circa 2006. It is hard!

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SHOW NOTES

+ Read Chingy’s Bottom Manifesto, follow her on Twitter and IG!

+Here is a list of all the films that Drew used in her game:

• The Seventh Seal (1937)
• Bringing Up Baby (1938)
• Pierrot le Fou (1965)
• Black Swan (2010)

+Watch Anna Faris do the best work of her career in Smiley Face!

+Let Shohreh Aghdashloo talk you to sleep while dressed as Chrisjen Avasarala from The Expanse because you deserve that.

+Cindy Wilson of The B52s is quite hot and frankly? “Love Shack” still whips!

+Robert Mitchum, stone cold fox.

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EPISODE

Chingy: I’ve just been bottoming since I was, I don’t know, as far back as I can remember.

Drew: Cue Rags to Riches from Goodfellas.

Chingy: As far back as I can remember, I always wanted to be a bottom, no, but kind of

[intro plays]

Drew: Hi, I’m Drew.

Christina: I’m Christina.

Drew: Welcome to Wait, Is This a Date?

Christina: Wait, Is This a Date? is an Autostraddle podcast dedicated to the one, the only the biggest question of our times: Wait, Is This a Date?

Drew: And, wow, I really just froze up there.

Christina: I was like, oh shit, I was supposed to say something! [laughs]

Drew: I’m really quick to the banter, my brain just… The truth is that I was reading over my game notes, which we’re not at yet because we still have to introduce ourselves. So, I’m going to try to stay focused on one task at a time.

Christina: Focus up!

Drew: My name is Drew Gregory, I am a writer for Autostraddle, and a filmmaker, and a trans woman.

Christina: Hi, my name is Christina Tucker, forgot my last name for a hot minute, no big deal. I am also a writer at Autostraddle and other places on the internet, a podcaster, a gay black woman. That’s kind of it, dog, that’s me.

Drew: I love it. Okay, now we-

Christina: Now the game.

Drew: Can we play the game?

Christina: Can we get to the game? I can tell you’re excited, I can tell you’re just vibrating.

Drew: So, I’ve been keeping a dream journal since 2007, and the premise of this game is-

Christina: I did not know this about you!

Drew: Yes, it’s not as up to date now, I used to write down all my dreams and now it’s only when something really sticks. But, the premise of this game is, am I describing the plot of a dream I had when I was an adolescent, or am I describing the plot of a movie that I loved when I was an adolescent?

Christina: Oh boy, okay.

Drew: So, the way it will go is I’ll always describe it as a dream and in the first person. So, if it was Star Wars, I’d be like, I’m in space and I’m fighting as part of a rebellion, and there’s an evil  guy who’s wearing a black robot suit and it turns out he’s my father. That’s how I’ll describe it, the way we describe dreams, but sometimes it will be a dream, sometimes it’ll be from a movie. Ready?

Christina: I’m something, I don’t know that I’m ready, but let’s rock. Let’s see what I can do here.

Drew: Okay, I’m on a beach and I see this weird man dressed in black. He tells me that he’s Death and we can play a game to decide if I live or if he takes me. I manage to escape, but everywhere I go, people are sick and I feel like Death is still following me.The only happy part is when I meet a theater troupe and they’re a lot of fun.

Christina: This,I think, is a dream.

Drew: This would be Ingmar Bergman’s The Seventh Seal from 1957.

Christina: This is going to be a real gotcha on CT’s classic movie knowledge, because what I know that Drew, in your adolescence, was not doing was watching movies that I’m going to recognize. At this point, I’m kind of hoping that I’ve seen none of them. I think that’ll be more fun for me.

Drew: The second one, I’m meeting with my family and some Italian American gangsters. One of the gangsters demands that I give over some money, but my family and I managed to escape. We run away through all this snowy terrain, on the road I meet an actress and connect with her. We end up in a suburb. I think we’re going to start a new life together until she takes me to a big mansion, and I realize it belongs to the gangster. It was all a trap, the gangster arrives and there’s a confrontation. I kill him, the dream ends with the actress performing a musical number.

Christina: Is this a film?

Drew: This would be a dream I had in 2008.

Christina: Okay, wow. Boy, yeah, I guess I have to remember that it’s 2000, it’s old school Drew brain. That’s what I have to remember.

Drew: Also like, what movies was I watching at the time and how much did that impact my dreams?

Christina: Well, yeah, clearly quite a lot!

Drew: A fun fact is that I was actually, I didn’t include this because I thought this would give it away, but the gangster was Tony Soprano because I was watching The Sopranos in 2008. So, that’s a fun little fact. Okay, next one, I have an important assignment, but this hot girl shows up and starts distracting me. I want to be with her, but I also really need to get my work done, so I tell her to leave. She keeps following me. All of a sudden, a leopard appears in my room and I have to spend the rest of the dream trying to catch the leopard. I’m still really anxious, I never finish my work, but at least the girl is hot.

Christina: This has to be a dream of yours, this has to be a Drew dream.

Drew: This is Howard Hawks’ Bringing Up Baby from 1938.

Christina: No, but that’s a dream of yours, that is the most Drew dream I’ve ever heard. Now at this point, I’m just going to be rewriting movie history, to suit my whims.

Drew: Great, I love that. Okay, I’m at a party and I don’t really like anyone there. Finally, I see this girl, I used to have a crush on and we decide to leave together. We go to her house, but are chased off by this group of men who are trying to kill the girl. We end up on a beach and it seems like we’re going to be okay until the men find us. She ends up being into this other guy, so I take cartoonish dynamite and decide to blow myself up

Christina: Movie.

Drew: This is! This is Jean Luc Goddard’s Pierrot le Fou, from 1965.

Christina: Have not seen, but that sounds like a ding dang movie to me.

Drew: Great, I love it. There’s a narration describing an odd boat like structure that’s impossible to destroy. I’m going on a retreat near the structure, the retreat is sort of theater related, sort of religious. I have a crush on this girl at the retreat, but she has a boyfriend. Amid the performances and rituals, there’s a lot of drama between me and this girl and her boyfriend, it ends with me alone. There has been a sequence revealing that the boat structure is impossible to destroy because a mechanical arm fixes it in the night.

Christina: That could be anything in so many ways, I’m going to say movie again, why not?

Drew: It is a dream from 2011, that did have narration from someone else, you know, it happens!

Christina: This is really good promo to have a dream journal, because I feel like it would be fun if I could remember my dreams in this manner.

Drew: Nobody really likes when you describe your dreams to them. I do though, and I’m your friend, so if you want to write down your dreams and tell me, I would love to hear about them.

Christina: Okay, that’s really nice to hear.

Drew: I have two more.

Christina: Okay.

Drew: I’m in a beautiful garden with a group of friends, we all seem to be waking up from being drugged. We’re forced to shower in an acid that drains pigment and we end up being blonde and blue-eyed. The people in charge start training us to kill, it turns out this place is being run by a crazy dictator, I resist getting totally brainwashed. There’s this girl there I have a crush on and I convince her to escape with me, while escaping I get shot and killed, but the girl gets away. When she leaves the prison, she realizes we’re in the middle of a forest so there’s nowhere to go.

Christina: Movie.

Drew: That would be the first dream in my dream journal from, I said, “2007.” It’s actually 2006.

Christina: Wow.

Drew: I always thought it was interesting that I die in the dream, but the other person continues on. But now, there’s some weird gender stuff going on there, and I’m going to have to think about that one for a while.

Christina: Definitely do that.

Drew: Okay, I have one more.

Christina: Okay.

Drew: I’ve been given the chance to be a ballerina, my mom insists I won’t be able to do it. There’s this other girl in the show who I think is hot, but I’m worried she’s going to replace me. I’m struggling in rehearsal, but end up leaving with the girl, we hook up. It’s really hot, but I feel myself losing control, we go back to the dance show. My body seems to be morphing into something else, I’m worried that I’m going to mess up.

Christina: This is a movie.

Drew: So, Black Swan.

Christina: Yes, that is Black Swan, certainly.

Drew: Have you seen Black Swan? That was one I thought you’ve seen.

Christina: I have seen Black Swan, I… Fun fact, I went on a date with a man to see Black Swan.

Drew: Wow.

Christina: Just straight things I did.

Drew: What was that like?

Christina: Weird, it was weird.

Drew: Did you like the movie? Did he like the movie?

Christina: I think, I had already seen it, I think I was like, “Let’s go see it again.” I think, I was very pro Black Swan, and for straight heterosexual reasons, certainly.

Drew: Sure, okay.

Christina: And, he was like, “That was weird.” And I was like, “Oh well, we’re not going to continue to date.”

Drew: Wow, well I wish him the best, I hope he’s somewhere doing well. Thank you for playing this game with me.

Christina: Wow, I’m so glad I went two for however many we did on that.

Drew: Not terrible.

Christina: Not terrible.

Drew: You did better than Elise did when I wanted to see if this was a functional game that could work, and she was my guinea pig. So, she only got one right.

Christina: Fair enough.

Drew: Should we move on to our main topic of the week?

Christina: Let’s get into it, let’s get this special guest in.

Drew: Well, I want to first say that our main topic of the week is bottoming, so we could only have one very special guest.

Christina: It’s only one person.

Drew: Can you please introduce yourself?

Chingy: Hi, I’m Chingy Nea, otherwise known as The Gay Chingy. I am a Writer, Filmmaker, and gasian leather dyke muppet. I am also America’s number one bottom.

Christina: Yes, I think when we were discussing topics and we’re like, “We could talk about bottoming and there’s literally only one person we could have on the pod to do so, there’s only one person who is quite literally the Supreme.”

Chingy: Thank you for recognizing, it feels good to have your greatness recognized, thank you

Christina: Yes, and you’ve done great work, and here we are recognizing it.

Drew: I want to know when you feel like you became America’s greatest bottom. When was that a word and a label and an identity that you really held onto?

Chingy: Well, so I usually just say, “I’m The Bottom Supreme.” Because, who cares about America?

Drew: Sure.

Christina: Fair enough.

Chingy: Yeah, I think that I always was really good at bottoming, but then in 2017 or something, I went to a play party that was just for fem top sadists beating me up for six to seven hours straight, and it was only me, and I was like, “Oh, I’m the best that’s ever been.” And then, I think from there, I just kept escalating and being, wow, I’m so fun to watch. Wow, I’m so entertaining as a bottom, this is wow, everybody who gets to top me is so lucky. And, it just went from there, I think, and then I wrote an article called I’m A Much Better Bottom Than You. Here’s Why. It was kind of a manifesto, it was a bottom manifesto.

Christina: Yes, can confirm.

Chingy: And, many people have told me, “It’s changed how they look at sex.” And, I like that a lot. It’s the one article on my website that I’ve written there. I’ve written at Vice, Teen Vogue, Vulture— Autostraddle was the first place I wrote, actually. But yeah, that is the one blog on my website, if you want to check it out.

Christina: I love a strong brand, I love knowing a brand, and I think that’s really gorgeous, just, brand management of your own bottomy yourself. I think, that’s really beautiful to see.

Chingy: Thank you, I got my first writing opportunity at Autostraddle because I was writing about being a bottom, and being poly, and being really deep into being a leather dyke. And since then, I’ve started to write about a bunch of other things, but being bottom supreme just kind of is the one through line of it all.

Christina: Yes.

Drew: I also feel like you’re a very active bottom and also in the way that you write about, and talk about, and I presume experience bottoming that you’re very active. Whereas, I think there’s a lot of the queer community, maybe, especially the lesbian community, that maybe thinks of bottoming as… I don’t know-

Chingy: Passivity.

Christina: Mm-hmm (Affirmative).

Drew: Yeah.

Chingy: Yeah, I often say that there’s a lot less bottoms than people think are bottoms. I think there’s a difference between being a bottom and just not knowing or asking for what you want. I think those are two entirely different things that people conflate.

Christina: I would have to agree, I also think the way that you talk about bottoming is, I mean, let’s just say it, so much less annoying than the way so many people talk about being a bottom or identify with bottom culture. Because, I do feel that what a lot of people are saying explicitly or non explicitly is just, I am lazy and do not care to do any sort of action, activity, et-cetera, I would like things done to me. And, if I have to seek that out in any way, that hurts my feelings. And, you are so good and so powerful at being, these are the things that I want, bring them to me and I will rock your world. That is gorgeous to me.

Chingy: Thank you, I mean, that’s what you have to do to be good at just something, you have to put yourself out there and try and make mistakes and get hurt a little bit, and, I don’t know, learn from it.

Christina: I think that’s a good message, frankly.

Chingy: I’ve just been bottoming since I was, I don’t know, as far back as I can remember. [laughs]

Drew: Cue “Rags to Riches” from Goodfellas.

Chingy: Yeah, as far back as I can remember, I always wanted to be a bottom. No, but kind of, when I was 13 or 14, I was already looking at BDSM websites and lesbian BDSM websites. So, I wasn’t under any delusions about what I was about, I was having girls I dated in high school choke me out, I knew what I wanted. And so, that level of awareness has just given me a long time to know what I want and figure out how to get it.

Christina: Gorgeous, Drew, give me your feelings on bottoming.

Drew: Well, I’m actually really excited to talk about this because I feel like in 2019 when I was on my, I’m single and queer for the first time, I need to figure out who I am and what I want. I wrote an essay for Autostraddle about trying to figure out if I was a bottom and just really wanting to be told what to do, and not knowing what I wanted. That actually includes an anecdote that I’m still not embarrassed by the inclusion of it in the piece, but I’m still not… I don’t know, basically Chingy set me up on a date, and I think it’s the one interaction that I can think of in my dating history where I just feel like I was exhausting because I was so unsure of what I wanted, and who I was. And, the person was so generous and so kind, and I just didn’t know what to do.

And then, I was embarrassed and so just never really talked to them again. I’m usually on the other side of that, because for a long time I was topping and I did have a lot of interactions with people who didn’t really know what they wanted, and I provided a lot of emotional space to help them discover their queerness, and their relationship to their bodies, and that’s fine. And, some of those experiences were better than others, but I do notice how kind of… I don’t know, it’s not necessarily what you want when you’re trying to fuck. So, I feel a little bit away about it, but I think I had to learn that it wasn’t about someone else telling me what I wanted and that I had to really take the time and have the experiences to discover what it was I wanted for myself.

And, I don’t know what I identify as top, bottom, switch wise, but I do know that I am now bottoming in ways that I never did and never really thought I would, or at least never thought I would until I had bottom surgery. And then I was like, oh, and then I think I’ll feel better about it and that did not need to happen. And, I have learned to appreciate the things that my current body can do. And, I don’t know, it’s really exciting to have sex now where I am seeking my own pleasure. And then as a result, I think, being better at giving pleasure, because I’m more in touch with myself.

Christina: Yeah, I feel like I remember when we started becoming friends and I was like, “Oh, I’m a bottom.” And you were like, “Oh well, here’s my feelings about bottoming, here are my feelings about being a top, here are my feelings about being a switch.” And I was like, “Wow, that is so many feelings to have about any topic.” Of course, as we grew in our friendship, I said, “Well, baby, that’s just Drew, Drew just got feelings and ways to think about them.” And, that’s gorgeous.

Drew: But, it’s something you have to learn from doing, from fucking. You can’t study your way to figuring out… I mean, not that it can’t be an important part of the process to think, and to learn, and to do solo research, and I certainly was sticking things up my ass by myself during that year, but there is just something to be said about having more sex.

Christina: Wow, you said it first.

Chingy: Drew, I’m slightly remembering this was… Was it one of my exes?

Drew: It was, yeah.

Chingy: That’s what I thought, okay, I know who it is, all right.

Christina: Wow, and the brand keeps on branding, this is beautiful,

Chingy: But yeah, I think a lot of people do think it is someone telling you what you want and that’s not how it works. Even in power play and BDSM bottoming, you have to have your own framework of knowledge of what it is you need and want, otherwise it’s not going to be a healthy dynamic or relationship, or it’s not going to be beneficial for anyone. No, one’s going to get what they want if one person doesn’t know what they want, and the way to learn that is to fuck around a lot.

Drew: What about you Christina, what’s your relationship to being a bottom?

Christina: You know that I just am one, it was one of all the things that I was very stressed out about around coming out and coming to terms of the fact that, baby, you’re just a dyke, it’s not that deep. You don’t have to be this stressed out, you are just gay. The one thing that I was like, oh, naturally I am a bottom. That was always just very much a part of it, I did not feel any way about identifying that way or feeling stressed out about it. I was just like, yeah, no, I am a person who is constantly very rigid and has a lot of things that I would like to be done in the exact way that I would like them to be done. And in this space, it is very relaxing for me to not have to worry about that at all, because I just need a break sometimes! Truly a girl just needs to let go every once in a while. And, the best way that I have found for me to do that is for someone to be like, bitch, let go.

Chingy: Yeah, exactly, I personally can be kind of a control freak sometimes in my life, and I’m like, oh, I need everything to be this exact way. But then, when I’m submitting or bottoming, I can just be, okay, I don’t really have any control over this situation because I’ve chosen to give that over and I’m just going to do what I’m told and have what’s done to me, done to me. And, if I need it to stop, it can stop, but I’m not going to stop it.

Christina: It’s nice, I don’t have to have a thought in my head at this moment.

Chingy: Exactly.

Christina: I don’t have to think about what’s coming next for one time in my life, because I truly wake up every day and I’m like, all right, what are the things you’re thinking about today? What are the things that need to be done? It’s very exhausting to be in my own brain, and it’s a nice way for me to take a break from my own brain.

Chingy: And, I think that’s really a gift that tops give, and I feel like not enough people appreciate that. Some people just think of tops as experienced machines and just someone who will give you this exciting, kinky, or sexual experience you want. But also, they require aftercare or appreciation for what they’re doing. It’s a lot to run something, which is why we don’t want to do it when we’re in the-

Christina: That’s why we want a goddamn break.

Chingy: Exactly, people talk a lot about a top shortage, and I don’t think there is one. I think, because people think there’s a shortage of tops, they see tops when they can find them as a means to an end and don’t appreciate them as full people. I don’t know, I have a whole thing about how bottoms objectify tops in a way that isn’t sexy.

Christina: I love this, the personhood of tops, we need to be respecting it, we need to be seeing it, we need to raise it to the heavens and say, thank you, thank you for this experience.

Chingy: Yeah, tops rule, I love tops. I couldn’t be a bottom without my tops, my tops couldn’t be bottoms without me, or whatever the other way. You know what I mean?

Christina: I do know what you mean, but I do love that your bottom supremacy just said everyone is bottoms, it’s all I can say.

Chingy: Yeah, I’m an alpha bottom, it’s interesting because as I am getting older, I’m finding myself able to submit for less and less people, but bottoming I can always do. And, also one time, the other day, someone called me a switch and anytime someone calls me a switch, it pisses me off. It makes me so angry, there is one solid part of who I am and it is that I am a bottom. And they’re like, “But, you fist people.” And I’m like, “So what?” You can bottom from fisting people, my hand is literally being devoured, I don’t know what you want from me. I don’t know.

Christina: I do love the idea of being, how dare you call me that slur?

Chingy: That slur, yeah.

Christina: A switch? How could you? [laughs]

Drew: I do think it’s interesting to sort of separate these identities in ways of fucking from specific sexual acts. And, I think that’s something that maybe is more acceptable in lesbian spaces than in gay male spaces.

Chingy: I think, totally.

Christina: Yeah.

Drew: It can mean very different things, I think that was also something that I was struggling with when I was first trying to figure this out was, well, if I’m getting fucked, then I know what that would be. But if I’m not, then what does that mean? That means that I’m topping? I’m also not fucking anyone with my dick, so I don’t know, I think I was really trying to figure that out. And, as I’ve just had more sex and had a wider variety of experiences, I do feel like, oh, it’s been more energetic. I mean, not to say that I also haven’t started getting fucked, and started fucking, because I got a strap on and was like, even though I have a dick, I can get a dick that I actually enjoy using.

So, I think it’s interesting to think about the fact that I was able to start bottoming fully once I actually started topping, as opposed to… I feel like my sex life in 2019 was very, the chaos of it, the drama of it, and the experience of just bodies was what sex was, as opposed to really about pleasure, or about acts, or about orgasm. And, not that that’s not okay, and queer sex can be so many different things. But, I do think that some of me being, queer sex can be so many different things, was in part because I wasn’t really having the full amounts of the kind of sex that I wanted to be having, or wanted to be having and didn’t even realize I wanted to be having.

Christina: I think, experience is at the end of the day, the one thing that is always going to help you figure out how you fit in or how you identify without having those kinds of experiences and putting yourself in new and fun situations. It’s kind of, this is all going to be very theoretical until the thing happens, my guy, sometimes you just got to go for it.

Chingy: Yeah, I mean, for me, my genitals are cool, holes are cool, orgasms are cool, but for me coming from a background where I was always engaged in SM, and DS, and all that, bottoming just naturally. I think, this is true for also leather men, I think it’s just true for leather people, in generally, is that when you are doing BDSM or engaging in fetish, there’s just this decentralization of genitals as part of the sexual experience. And, it’s just about ideas, feelings, and concepts, and your body as a whole, which is your body as a hole and your body as a whole.

Christina: Ayooo!

Chingy: So, when I describe myself as a whole, I am energetically a hole, I am a black hole, I’m the black hole from High Life. Just pulling in all this horny energy, and there’s cum in High Life, but there’s also other things in High Life.

Drew: Right.

Christina: I think, something that’s so beautiful about queer sex is, it is sex and that is cool, but it’s also a theoretical framework and everybody should really get into that. I think, a little bit of thinking never goes wrong.

Chingy: Thinking in the right place can be real sexy.

Christina: Yeah, thinking in the wrong place, like, online? Online is a bad place to think, don’t think online, don’t do that.

Chingy: [laughs]

Drew: Thinking with another person. I mean, it’s interesting to think back to the experience I was talking about earlier. I do think that it circles back to two things we were talking about, one in which I was being, “This person’s a top, they’re going to take care of it, and I don’t have to bring anything to the table here, and that was one thing.” And, the other was that I jumped into it too quickly, I wasn’t at a place where I think if I had gotten to know the person better, maybe it would’ve worked better, and I wanted to be sluttier and more just, oh, I don’t care if I know someone and I can just do whatever.

But, I also think there’s a difference between having casual sex and doing things that are totally new to you. And, maybe this is starting to shift, but I still think that in casual sex I’ll be more of a top still.  And, in my relationship and in sex with people where I have a connection to them. And, it’s really just a trust, and that could happen with someone quicker, it doesn’t have to be, oh, we’re in a relationship. But, just having that trust and building that trust before trying new things or doing things that feel vulnerable. It now makes so much sense and seems so obvious, but at the time I was, why isn’t my desire to learn how to bottom working as I am trying it out with people who I don’t actually know as people.

Chingy: I mean, bottoming is just, I don’t want to say inherently, but it’s a lot more vulnerable than topping is a lot of the time, or just not even just topping, but just fucking someone else. It’s easy to just get someone else off when you don’t have to worry about where your mind is or where you can just do the motion. And theoretically, you can do that with bottoming too, but if you are trying to be really slutty and energetically open, that takes trust. And, if you’re willing to give that trust to someone new, it can be complicated. I mean, whenever I’m having sex with someone for the first time, I usually can’t cum if I’m bottoming for them, it just takes forever because I’m just, I don’t know you that well, and I’m not super comfortable, but I’m having fun and I don’t really care about cumming. It doesn’t matter, it’s not about the destination, it is very much about just the entire experience, I think.

Christina: I wonder about how much of actual bottoming and actual sex that we are having, or not to brag, that would be me. But, this also this cultural space we’re in where everybody’s culturally identifying as a bottom, which I get and understand and love. But sometimes I’m like, but what do you mean? You’re making a meme, so what do you mean in this context about using the term bottom here? What is this doing for anybody?

Chingy: I really hate the way people talk about being a bottom as being, oh, I’m shy and timid and all this. And, for such a long time, and often, sometimes still people would mistake me for a top or want me to top them because I’m very confident and loud. And, I have a certain type of bombastic charisma to me that I can recognize. And, I get that makes people be, oh, she’s in control of the situation, she’s powerful. And, I’m, yeah, but I also, I’m powerful in the fact that I want to be a hole and am a whole, and I’m going to do that. I’m not going to top you for free, no.

Christina: Absolutely not.

Chingy: And, I just hate this conflation of bottoming with timidity and being a small Bean, I hate it.

Christina: I was going to say, we are really edging closer to tender queer, small Bean territory here. I think that is the thing that I’m reacting against, right? It is that kind of small, white, queer energy that I’m, oh, I’m good, I’m all set on that one. I don’t need that energy in my life, but I am a bottom, I just don’t need that energy. Maybe that’s just it.

Chingy: Yeah, I don’t go for that energy, I’m just… I don’t know, anytime someone conflates bottoming with weakness, or timidity, or uncertainty, I’m just red flag. No, absolutely not.

Christina: I want to know if you, for our listeners, what are your three rules of bottoming that you swear by? What are some ways we can make our listeners better at bottoming and less small Bean energy? How can we help the people?

Chingy: So, I would say if there are three it’s awareness, communication, appreciation. So, be aware of what you need, be aware of what you can do, be aware of what you can’t do. Be able to know your limits and know what you want, and that involves exploration. Even if you don’t know entirely what you want, as long as you communicate where you are with it. I feel like people get scared to communicate because communicating is vulnerable in certain situations. You’re just being like: here’s what’s going on with me, and it’s, well, you shouldn’t be having intimate relations with other people if you aren’t willing to communicate where you’re at. So, I think that communication and letting someone know what you want and what you need is really important.

I don’t know, people think tops are mind readers, bottoms think tops are mind readers and they’re not. Then, like I was saying before, “Appreciation.” Recognize the person you are bottoming for is not just a fucking machine, unless you’re bottoming for a fucking machine. But, a person with needs, and insecurities, and feelings, and just know why you want to be doing this with them. And, it doesn’t have to be a super cerebral experience, but just be aware. I don’t know, I feel like those checklists that certain kinky people have are a good starting point for a lot of people. Yes, no, maybe, what are you into? Communication is hard at first, but just learn how to speak to what you want and go for it.

Christina: That’s gorgeous.

Chingy: Ask for what you want, because no one’s going to give it to you if you don’t ask for what you want. What I say is: closed holes don’t get filled.

Christina: Wow, put that on a fucking billboard somewhere because it deserves to be seen by many, many, and all.

Drew: I would follow that up by asking… And, maybe because both of you had such a clear sense of self from early on, maybe you don’t have advice for this. But, for people listening to that and are like, but I don’t know what I want. Do either of you have thoughts on what exploration can look like in a way that’s respectful and clear, but-

Chingy: Yeah, telling the other person that you don’t know entirely what you want, that’s the thing, even if you aren’t totally aware of what you want, you can be aware of how aware you are. And, tell the person, this is where I am, I’m not really sure if I’m into this, but I’m willing to try it, that’s maybe. I don’t know, you can just feel it out and if it doesn’t feel good, be, I actually don’t want to do that, can we do something else?

Christina: Yeah, I mean, as ever the way the Wait, is This A Date motto is, you got to say what you want, you got to say it out loud with your mouth hole.

Drew: Yeah.

Christina: That’s the moment.

Drew: And, I do think that, just thinking of my own experiences, it is really hard to ask for something and then retract it. And that, I think is also so important though, is knowing that’s an option and that you can try things. And, I think there’s also this pressure that sex always has to be great, you want to be great at sex, and you want the other person to have a good experience and to feel like you had a good experience. And, while that makes sense and while yeah, sure that’s the ideal, it also makes sense that if you’re still exploring things, maybe every time you fuck it’s not going to be incredible for you and maybe, especially, not incredible for the other person. And especially, if it’s someone who you want to go on to continue fucking. Being able to be this isn’t working for me or that didn’t work for me, and talking about it. And, if you don’t know what you want, then it honestly shouldn’t bruise the other person’s ego because you didn’t communicate what you wanted, or you did and it turned out to not be the thing you wanted. And, how were they supposed to know that? And, you are exploring and it’s part of it, and maybe that instance of fucking wasn’t the best, but you know what? You can then do it again, sometimes right away.

Chingy: It’s not always going to be tens across the board, sometimes it’s just exploration, you just need to feel things out. And, it’s not always going to be perfect, you’re right, but try and have an open, communicative experience even if it’s not perfectly blissful and orgasmic.

Christina: Wow, that’s gorgeous, I feel like that really puts a nice little button on this combo. My friends, my gorgeous, smart friends.

Drew: Should we do crush corner?

Christina: We should do crush corner, who can say why I sing things when I sing them.

Drew: Do you want to start us off, Christina?

Christina: Yeah, I can start us off. I have been bravely consuming almost no media in this time. Not really sure what’s going on with me, I haven’t been watching stuff, who am I? I’m just kind of vibing out here in the world. So, I think for today, my crush is just going to be a long standing crush of mine and it’s going to be Shohreh Aghdashloo. She’s currently the lock screen on my phone, she’s got a voice that sounds like gravel poured over honey, I think it’s incredible. And, I just hope she’s having a nice time, I don’t know what she’s up to right now. She’s probably going to be in some other Sci-Fi series, that seems to be her thing right now. I say, go off girl, and she’s a Taurus, so same, same girl! Game recognized game over here. But, that’s going on with me. What’s going on with you, Drew?

Drew: I finally watched Smiley Face, and so my-

Chingy: Yes!

Drew: I know, I was waiting for that reaction.

Chingy: Gregg Araki is my favorite filmmaker, and I think it’s an underrated hit of his.

Christina: Fist pumping.

Drew: I don’t know why it took me so long, but I also hadn’t seen Mysterious Skin until this year. That one, I knew why it was taking me a long time to watch, but-

Chingy: Yeah, that one’s harder to watch than a stoner comedy with Anna Ferris.

Drew: But, they are two of my favorite movies I’ve seen all year, I love both of them so much. And, Anna Ferris is so… She’s my crush of the week because she’s incredible, it’s an incredible performance. I mean, I was obviously super high while watching it and it was one of the most delightful experiences I’ve had watching anything in a long while. And, a reminder, I’ve watched like 20 Paul Newman movies multiple weeks, so I’ve had a lot of great viewing experiences. But, it was so great, and she’s so great. And, I’ve always thought she was great, I was obsessed with the Scary Movie movies back in the day.

Chingy:I think it’s her peak.

Drew: Most of the time I watch her stuff and I go, oh, I wish this was a better movie for her, this was a movie worthy of her. And, this is the first time… I think it’s the first time that I’ve watched something where I’ve been, this is worthy of her and she’s doing her best work. So, Anna Ferris is my crush of the week, and Smiley Face is a recommendation.

Christina: Gorgeous.

Chingy: Yeah, it’s a stoner comedy, but it feels more like a shrooms comedy because you just eat so many edibles. And, I watched it on shrooms in Palm Spring with a bunch of fems once and it was beautiful.

Drew: That’s beautiful.

Christina: Yeah, that’s a gorgeous little picture you just painted with your words there.

Chingy: We were by a pool, it was an outdoor TV, it was really lovely.

Christina: It got better.

Chingy: Yeah, my crush of the week. I mean, I have so many crushes in real life. Can I have two?

Drew: Absolutely.

Christina: Yeah, no rules.

Chingy: Okay, so aside from my partners and my booze and all that, crushes are Cindy Wilson from the B-52’s. She’s the one who’s not the redhead, I don’t know, I just love her beehives and her fashion. And, it sucks that she’s the only one in the band who’s not gay and I’m just like, damn. Even Kate Pearson is, I think she’s dating a Butch. And then, it’s weird for me to pick a dude as one of my crushes, but Robert Mitchum for sure. Star of… I’m only thinking of movies where he plays a piece of shit, let me think of… He’s the star of Holiday Affair, Out of the Past, he was such a great noir actor. And, he’s just got a great voice and very strong character to his face that some people are like, “He looks like a toad.” And I’m like, “No, he doesn’t.” I don’t know, his face does look a little smashed, but it’s classic handsome.

Christina: Character face.

Chingy: Yeah, he’s got a lot of character, and I’ve just been watching a lot of Robert Mitchum movies. I think most recently I watched Holiday Affair, which stars him and Janet Leigh. Is it Janet Leigh or Janet Leigh?

Drew: Leigh.

Chingy: I think the one from Psycho. Okay, yeah.

Christina: I think it’s Leigh.

Chingy: Yeah, it’s her and him, and she’s a war widow, and has this boyfriend, and then he just shows up and is… It’s like straight Carol, except I think I like it more than Carol. Because he works at a toy store, they meet at a toy store.

Christina: Well, and there it is.

Chingy: And then, she has this guy who wants to marry her, it’s the detective from Rear Window. He shows up and is just way more charming, and he is just like, I think you should marry me, actually, and points were made, she should marry him.

Drew: Wow, I love it. I really-

Christina: I love game.

Drew: I love following you on Letterboxd, because I feel like you, one, I like your taste and what you have to say about movies, but also I feel like you do what I do, which is get very obsessive about one actor or one filmmaker, and are just watching a bunch of stuff. And, that’s very much me.

Christina: The two of you are very fun to follow because I’m like, oh what are Drew and Chingy into right now? And, it’s just this gorgeous list of things. I’m like, oh I know where they are.

Drew: Wow, well thank you so much for being here, and do you want to tell people where they can find you and your work and your manifesto?

Chingy: Yeah, so my manifesto is at chingynea.com, but yeah, I’m on Twitter, and Instagram, and all that as The Gay Chingy, like the rapper, but gay]

Christina: Gay.

Chingy: I just sold my first feature, which I’m also going to direct, but that’s not for a couple years. So, more updates on that will be from my Twitter and other things. And, I write for a bunch of publications, no specific that I call a home right now, just freelancing. But yeah, follow me on Twitter for updates about it.

Drew: Amazing, thanks.

Christina: Just follow Chingy on Twitter for fun, also just for a damn good time.

Chingy: I shit post a lot, I’m just goofing most of the time. I know I should be more professional on there, but I’m just goofing and flirting with sluts there.

Christina: I think the time for a professional Twitter has passed, I think we’re all past it emotionally.

Drew: I have a funny anecdote to end this and also to encourage people to always listen past the outro, whatever, is that when we met, I didn’t follow you on social media and I just knew you from around LA, queer spaces. And then, at Acamp, I hit on you and was like, “Do you want to hook up?” And, you were like, “I think, I want to be friends.” And then, after a camp I followed you on Twitter, and I was like, I would not have been able to do anything for you sexually. I was like, oh, okay, well now-

Chingy: Yeah, I kind of only date dominatrices, it’s a thing. Yeah, totally.

Drew: I love that for you.

Christina: Wow, I love that for both of you, frankly.

Chingy: I feel like my Twitter is a good way to get to know my taste, and I call Twitter my dating app, that’s the main thing I use to find dates. And, it’s because I’m just very clear about what I’m about on there.

Drew: That’s perfect.

Christina: Clarity and communication, always.

Drew: And, I do think that an important part of this podcast is that the majority of our guests are people who have either rejected me, or who I’ve rejected, mostly have rejected me. And then, we’re all still friends and that’s to encourage all of the little timid queers to be more forward, and that’s our message. It’s the queer way. Thank you so much for listening to Wait, Is This A Date? You can find us on Twitter and Instagram at WaitIsThisADate. And you can email us at waitesthisadate@gmail.com.

Christina: Our theme was written by Lauren Klein, our logo is by Manya Dar, and this podcast was produced, edited, and mixed by Lauren Klein.

Drew: You can find me on Twitter, Instagram, and TikTok at Draw_Gregory.

Christina: You can find me on Twitter at C_ GraceT, and on Instagram at Christina_ GraceT. And, you can find Autostraddle of course at Autostraddle.

Drew: And, you can find autostraddle @autostraddle.com, the reason we’re all here today. Thank you so much and see you next week. Christina, what is the difference between a date and a podcast?

Christina: Oh, actually, that’s really interesting that you asked that because scientists are at this very moment, hurriedly trying to figure this out. We have some of our best scholars on the case here. We don’t have an answer, but I think every day we journey closer to understanding.

Drew: I wish them and us the greatest luck.

Drew (voice memo): I just thinking, and it’s really funny that I thought a whole history of the world of people with prostates talking about how good it felt to get fucked, and I was like “Yeah, I think I’m the one person who’s just not going to work for.” Like, I really thought that was the issue instead of, I don’t know, hadn’t just figured it out yet. Life, what a journey.