Arielle Scarcella‘s latest video, “What Lesbians Think About Bisexuals,” features several lesbians sharing really special old-fashioned stereotypical ideas about bisexual women. It’s pretty much every nightmare response you could imagine, ranging from “slutty” to “indecisive” to “unfaithful” to “greedy” to “non-existent.” While it’s true that these outrageous and faulty ideas are shared pretty openly in anonymous comments and message boards throughout the internet, it’s really disappointing (to say the least) that the stigma around biphobia remains so minimal that there are apparently at least four women eager to say them on video. As the video goes on, Arielle kinda attempts to challenge some of their perspectives and there is one girl (in a white-t-shirt) who manages to avoid saying anything too terrible — assuming you make it that far without losing your shit / faith in humanity / will to live. I think it’s safe to say that the lesbians on this video are not representative of the entire lesbian community, thus throwing the whole “what lesbians think” title into hot dispute.
The good news is that if you’re bisexual and you wanna hook up with the dreadlocked white girl prominently featured in this film, if you have a really good personality and make her laugh, she’s totally willing to overlook “the fact that [you] had a dick in [your] mouth last week”! Isn’t that sweet?!!
(Also: at one point Arielle asks, “I’ve heard that some bisexuals think they’re better in bed than lesbians?” Really? I’ve never heard anybody say that! Not have I heard any lesbians claim they’re “better in bed” than bisexuals.)
I want to just rage now. I’ll be back to when I’m done.
*goes off to rage*
I can see a couple things they shouldn’t have said like about being smarter or whatever but really whats all the rage about? I’ve been around awhile and during that time I’ve seen a lot of lesbians get their hearts stomped all over by bisexuals. That is the root of the problem. Secondly, they are lesbians, obviously males aren’t their thing. I personally am grossed out at the thought of my mouth being where a man has recently been. I can’t not feel that way for you.None of them said they couldn’t be friends with a bisexual or that they hated them. They were leery of getting burned, of falling for someone who might, as many have, leave them for a man. Yes, the bad taste lingers of a time when it was safer to run back to the world of het privilege and leave the lesbian to live in a homophobic world. I’m sorry, its reality or it was and from the reactions of these lesbians it probably hasn’t completely changed. So, why is it wrong for someone to choose not to enter into an intimate relationship with a bisexual person? I choose not to sleep with men, I choose not to sleep with those I don’t trust. And sadly there is still a lingering mistrust by lesbians regarding bisexuals. Please don’t rage or flame. I’m trying to speak honestly and Ive lived the history and seen it. This is my explanation. Thanks….
You’re grossed out at the thought of your “mouth being where a man has recently been”? What does the fact that you aren’t attracted to someone’s former partner have to do with how attractive they are to you? There’s plenty of people I’m not attracted to, but it certainly doesn’t gross me out to simply be where they have once been. That’s an incredibly immature attitude.
As for the rest of your comment, I think your questions have been answered many times in the comments.
Haaaa. Burn.
(FTR, I am a bisexual woman in a long-term, monogamous relationship with another woman.)
“Yes, the bad taste lingers of a time when it was safer to run back to the world of het privilege and leave the lesbian to live in a homophobic world.”
Being in a relationship with a man at the time never stopped people shouting homophobic abuse at me in public.
Being in a relationship with a man at the time (and being cisgender) never stopped people shouting transphobic abuse at me in public.
Being in a relationship with a man at the time didn’t stop me getting queerbashed on the street.
And so on, and so forth…
Nobody is denying that being in a mixed-gender relationship has many attendant privileges when compared to same-gender, but please don’t labour under the mistaken impression that a bi woman in a partnership with a man remains 100% untroubled by homophobia until she happens to take up with a woman.
Deb, your comment reminded me of so many reasons why I struggled to identify in the way I want.
The ‘gold star’ lesbian culture really screwed me up for a long time.
People are people.
Bisexuality has nothing to do with breaking someone’s heart.
Omg this makes me so fucking mad….
Gross.
Ew
Wooooooooooooooooooooooooow.
ahahaha UGH
ururrughhhhhhhh
These lesbians don’t represent me AT ALL.
hahahahaha SHUT UP.
I made it 1:08 minutes, which was basically the opening credits of Biphobia: The Movie.
Four stars, said nobody.
If you have to wonder if this is really what all lesbians think about bisexuals, you might be stereotyping lesbians.
And that’s how horizontal oppression between similarly marginalized people works.
This but goddamn it’s infuriating!
FWIW, my lesbian friends are not this closeminded.
I think to me, being bi should be such a SIMPLE thing for people to GET that I’m STILL thrown off when people toss around shit like greedy, slutty, etc. AND YET WE GET ALL OF THESE STEREOTYPES THROWN AT US.
If your only argument is “but not all lesbians are like that”…
Duh! We know.
But what you are really demanding is that bisexuals reassure you that YOU are not like that and YOU are not being held accountable? And therefore avoid examining your own role in a biphobic system?
This, about everything ever. When you say “(Group with greater power) aren’t ALL like that!” you only show that you care more about your group’s image, your own image being associated with that group, than you do about what the other person has been through.
This, times a million million. Autostraddle’s treatment of this video is MUCH BETTER than AfterEllen’s…which was literally just “not all lesbians think this.” At least Autostraddle had a mini-article talking about just how deplorable the views of the women in the video are. Still though, I was a disappointed that even here, riese felt the need to mention that the views aren’t “representative of the entire lesbian community.”
You know what? NO KIDDING not every lesbian thinks bisexual women are greedy/nonexistant/whatever-the-hell. That’s not even something that needs to be said, because that particular stereotype doesn’t even exist. Newsflash: bisexual women aren’t the ones using age old stereotypes to treat lesbians like shit.
I’ve found afterellen to be a pretty biphobic place (its RIFE in the comments section, & articles don’t use a lot of inclusive language, or rarely do, i don’t read it much these days).
On autostraddle is biphobia seems rare, if unfortunately still present sometimes, see: the response to the 1st comment in the post :/.
Yes re:afterellen. Gave up on the site after a few particularly vicious comment threads.
I agree w/both of you on AE. There’s been some pretty vile stuff there.
As I said elsewhere, I do think AS has gotten better in terms of biphobia at least, since they switched to having only members comment. A big difference here is I that feel like many posters have been more supportive or at least more vocal in their support.
I feel like the comment about lesbians being smarter than bisexuals is probably disproven by the existence of this video.
I dunno know, that white dredlocked lady with the ‘equality’ sign on her wrist seems to have done her research;
aparently bisexuals will be in love with a woman for 6 months to a year before finding a hot guy with a really nice penis!
Can’t argue with statistics like that!
Of course I’m totally kidding and it’s a shame that even a youtube video made by lesbians featuring entirely lesbians still manages to perpetuate the stereotypes of lesbians. All the rages.
Which is not to say that lesbians are inherently less intelligent than bisexuals. It’s just to say… no.
You’re just amazing. Thank you! I think you’re very intelligent for this.
I had a hard time listening through all of it. I’ve heard it so many times before. Ugh Ugh and aaahhhhh!!!!
Ugh this is just so fucked up
Wait… was this actually a Bryan Goldberg/Bustle production? Is that the joke?
Now I have to go comfort-binge on baked goods and make up stories in my head about avenging bisexual superheroes.
Let us know what comes of these adventures of avenging bisexual superheroes, yeah?
I would read the shit outta that comic.
I’m judging White Dreads at least as much for her hairstyle as she’s judging me for having handled external genitalia.
I have two usual responses from seeing white people in dreads, they are “ohhh!” and “does this person live in Portland(ia)?”
I’ll judge her for basically having a company logo tattooed on her wrist: that HRC blocky equality sign.
This comment is perfect. :)
It was like a car wreck or something. I wanted to stop watching so badly, but couldn’t…
When it comes down to it, as lesbians, many of us feel this way because we are afraid you will leave us for a man.
A man will give you children, security, social approval. They will have a penis which is what each individual one of us has been taught from birth to be superior. The phallus- a symbol of power, human achievement, whatever. Which is why men might feel less fear/ threatened by this than lesbians.
We cannot offer you that and when you comment on how hot a woman is, we think, yeah we can improve ourselves and work toward your ideal but when you comment on how hot a man is, that is something we cannot become or transform into for you, lest we actually identify as trans*.
It’s that we can’t give everything to our lover, we can only give them half. And that hurts. That’s partially insecurity on our part, but also human feelings. Of course, I don’t speak for all lesbians at all, but I hope to get this out there so that you may understand our- my thought process on this a little better so that it’s not just a fight between which side can dislike each other more.
But if you’re dating another lesbian you’re not worried they’re going to leave you for another girl?
And guys do still worry about their bi girlfriend leaving them for a girl. People dont get that bi people are capable of monogamy. It’s not about wanting guys AND girls, it’s about being open to falling in love/having sex with either. If everyone left relationships because they were attracted to another person (regardless of your sexuality) we’d all be fucked.
Heterosexual relationships hold a privileged status in society. The worry stems from that, not from fear of being left, but the knowledge that there is inequality and anticipating the effects.
Don’t confuse bisexual erasure with heterosexual privilege.
Heterosexual relationships are certainly privileged, yes. But consider what it is to step away from that privilege, or (for women who are divorced or have left partnerships with men/come out later in life) to have walked away from that privilege. Deliberately. Without looking back.
FWIW, I know of no bisexual women who have been with or stayed with men because it was “easier.” And I know a number of women (and am one myself) who belong to that latter category – of having kicked heteronormative privilege (married tax benefits and all) to the curb in the interest of being true to ourselves.
At the end of the day, none of us – gay, bi, trans, queer, even straight – have it “easy” when it comes to relationships.
Flic, even with bisexual erasure, which is certainly real, opposite-sex relationships are privileged in tangible ways regardless of the sexuality of the people involved. Even if a lesbian is married to gay man, their relationship is privileged.
Jeanna, every gay person who has ever come out of the closet is aware of what it means to relinquish privilege.
It is easier to marry a person of the opposite sex. It is easier to have children with someone of the opposite sex. It’s easier to open a joint bank account with someone of the opposite sex. It’s easier to mention your partner at work when your partner is of the opposite sex.
I don’t justify biphobia. I am saying that there is a reason many lesbians feel insecure with bisexual women, and it has less to do with bisexual women and more to do with society telling them from birth that same-sex relationships are inferior.
Certainly not trying to quantify the marginalization that either lesbians or bisexual (pansexual, queer, what have you) folks experience here, but it’s far more complex than “You have access to heterosexual privilege in certain contexts, so it’s okay for us to be absolute jerks to you.” That approach is pretty reductionist if you ask me.
My experience, being someone who will (rarely, but it happens) find myself attracted to a man or someone somewhere on the masculine end of things (and I am currently in a relationship with one of such humans), is that my orientation tends to intimidate people, that they assume I primarily date men and have since always and forever operated out of a heterosexual mindset, even when I’m in the middle of a five year stretch where I don’t as much as look at or allow myself to be seen with a dude. I wouldn’t say that bisexual women being wary of the way lesbians tend to shut them all the way out… not just from dating, but from access to community and resources, is all that horrible. Bottom line is that we need to share the ball.
And, sidenote, this same sort of logic puts femme lesbians and queers in really shitty situations a lot of the time too.
GrrrlRomeo: While relationships with cisgendered men do offer certain important forms of privilege (although of course, thinking intersectionally, that depends on other axes of normativity: a white friend of mine who came out as a lesbian to her father was greeted, horrifyingly, with: “the only thing worse would be if you were dating a deaf black man!”), bisexual women, according to studies I’ve seen, are doing worse than both heterosexual women and lesbians in terms of various mental health measurements; the specific forms of alienation, misrecognition, and misrepresentation that bisexual women face right now are taking a toll. So I would think twice about the ease with which you’re assuming a bisexual woman can access straight privilege without having to jettison her bisexual identity in ways that then hurt her.
GrrrlRomeo:
“every gay person who has ever come out of the closet is aware of what it means to relinquish privilege.”
And every bisexual person, too. Bisexuals tend to face discrimination from people in both the hetero and (sadly, but clearly) the LGBT communities. But even if that weren’t so, perceived privilege is no excuse to treat people poorly.
DifficileDame:
“this same sort of logic puts femme lesbians and queers in really shitty situations a lot of the time too.”
Thank you! I can testify to that, having been on the receiving end of biphobic bs during my long coming-out process as a femme lesbian. I did try to “be straight” for a while (’twas an epic fail, for the record), not because I feared privilege-loss, but because I was really turned off by the anti-femme, anti-bi misogyny and bigotry I’d witnessed/experienced in the queer community (mostly within a couple small circles at a women’s college). Thank God, the people I knew like that have grown up or are out of my life, and I’ve had a very positive coming-out experience post-college. Now, no way in hell would I date a man . . . OR a a woman who speaks like this about other women – bi, femme, or otherwise.
Yeah, heterosexual relationships may be privileged in society. But if we’re going to talk about privilege, we should examine how relationships between a man and a woman (“heterosexual relationships”) are often subtly unequal in some ways because of privilege. That’s definitely a factor for myself and for some other bi/pan women when we are considering someone as a possible partner. I know that even though I am attracted to men, I am more likely to want to be with a woman (as I am now!) for that reason.
The horizontal marginalization GrrlRomeo said is a thing I am all to aware in my personal life which is one of the reasons I empathize with you saying “don’t confuse bisexual erasure with heterosexual privilege.” By appearing heteronormaitve in ones choices and immutable qualities especially as a bisexual person partnered with someone of a different sex/gender there is a cost, which is bisexual erasure.
So yeah you have a boyfriend, you can walk own the street and considering space and time you’re existing no violence. But what if you just found out you’re bi? What if you want to support a community without looking like a tourist or treated with suspicion? There’s the cost when there should not be. Like I always say “one is just trying to live!”
That statement is really important to what I am trying to say, that when one has certain privileges there are costs (painful ones sometimes).
why should bisexual girls have to try and understand your thought process? it’s your insecurity that you need to deal with. you honestly think that a girl being bisexual is indicative of her being shallow enough to ditch her partner because a man could ”give her children”? a statement which, in itself, makes me want to puke.
because it’s the thought process of many lesbians that say they don’t want to date bisexuals? so it’s better to understand where some of them are coming from instead of going on believing we just hate you for the sake of hating? maybe we can open up some dialogue and get to the bottom of it and accept each other instead of creating a growing divide?
The key to end this madness is EQUALITY FOR ALL WOMEN! The resource thing is serious and how society props up heteronormative lifestyles BUT STILL we seriously need to bring forth more same-sex couples and have these couples be seen as equal to the functionality of our heterosexist society. It’s going to be a minute, though, a loooong minute.
Do you know how many Yuri anime and mangas I had to read to come to this conclusion? Lots.
i’m not saying that you’re hating for the sake of hating. i’m saying that you’re insecure.
if your point is that you won’t date a bisexual girl because you’re afraid she’ll leave you for a man, what kind of dialogue can you possibly expect from that? if you’re trying to build a bridge then you’re going to have to concede that some of your opinions are wrong, because all you’re doing right now is stating your prejudices and acting like they’re super reasonable.
Yes, I think its more important to talk about the homophobia that might cause someone to feel they can’t be in a same sex relationship, rather than stigmatizing all bisexuals. It would probably help if they felt included in the queer community as well.
you don’t have to ~explain~ why your gross stereotypes exist.
spoiler warning, anyone who has that shit levied against them has had it made far too fucking clear to them what prejudiced assholes think
just like we don’t need men to mansplain us THEIR takes on sexism, like hello of course we have to be aware of the dominant view as well as our own, the problem isn’t us not knowing their view, it’s them having nothing BUT their dominant lens and thinking they’re misunderstood
and bisexuals don’t need us explaining the dominant stereotypical view of their sexuality to them, they are perfectly aware
this applies to everything
Marginalized people are negatively affected by marginalization.
Stigmatization causes insecurity.
That about sums it up.
It’s not the “thought process of many lesbians”. It’s the thought process of “assholes”. Including one ex of mine who HAD had a ‘lesbian’ leave her for a man (she thought).
But you can’t carry your baggage into the next relationship and expect the new person to accept and deal with it, any more than you’d can get away with being a shitty person to your new partner because your ex cheated on you. It’s YOUR problem, the world doesn’t have to keep stroking your hair about it. You need to move on, and grow up.
Yeah I don’t date people because they could potentially give me children. Or because they afford me privilege. That’s not how my romantic or sexual feelings work. If it was, I wouldn’t be in a going-on four year relationship with a woman, not that I should have to prove or defend my bisexuality to ignorant, discriminatory, or bigoted people, whether straight or gay.
What I want in a partner is someone who can make me laugh, share my values and satisfy me emotionally/sexually (a sick car is a plus, but not mandatory. If someone can only provide half of that, you can be damn sure I’m going to leave them – but “genitalia that looks in a certain way” will never be on that list. It makes me so frustrated that people can’t see that.
Yes to the sick car. Such a plus.
Insecurity is no excuse for bigotry.
Excuse? No. Explanation? Yep.
But the insecurity is actually caused by being marginalized and stigmatized. Indeed, this community is screwed up in many ways due to marginalization.
We expect straight cisgender people to be slow to accept us though, and we give them awards when they finally do. But other queer people? NO BREAKS FOR YOU! Funny how that works. It’s almost like…privilege.
“We expect straight cisgender people to be slow to accept us though, and we give them awards when they finally do. But other queer people? NO BREAKS FOR YOU!”
Nope. Nope. Nope. If anything I give straight/cis people way fewer chances to screw up when it comes to anything or anyone queer, even if I have an issue with the queer in question. And I exert about 10x more restraint when I just want to cuss another queer out. I know I’m not the lone unicorn who feels this way. I’m seeing a lot of false dichotomy-ish stuff in your arguments, and while I think a lot of us could work with a fair portion of what you’re saying I think you’re just ducking and weaving here.
“But the insecurity is actually caused by being marginalized and stigmatized.” If pin-pointing a source for a bias makes you feel better, that’s cool, but only if you don’t stop there and you use it as a step to work on yourself and eliminate the bias.
Generally, though, I don’t buy it. There are an effing ton of lesbians who are just fine with bisexuals, and we are every bit as marginalized as the asshole lesbians in this video. And there are plenty of non-marginalized, straight, white, wealthy, Christian, male, cis folks who are insecure and bigoted. Marginalization probably can and does cause insecurity, but that doesn’t happen universally, or present in the same ways. And people with biases stemming from any reason need to step up and work on themselves – that is how bigotry of all kinds gets addressed and eroded. Individual minds have to change first. If you expect straight cisgender people to become more accepting, you need to keep your end of the bargain and evaluate your own acceptance of others, too.
Intersectionality: it’s a beautiful thing, and it operates in many directions.
You know, I think that lesbians should stop worrying and be more confident. :) You’re not giving bi girls “half” what we want! Bi girls want a valuable significant other, and if you give your love and respect, it’s 100% what we want.
This abandonment fear we all feel at some point is simply universal. Straight people experience jealousy and self-doubt all the time. Boys are afraid of their girlfriend leaving them for a stronger, richer, funnier, more muscular, dude. Girls are afraid their boyfriend will leave them for the Playboy mansion blonde who makes better sandwiches.
What we need to do, as humans, is grow stronger from our failed relationships and not let unhappy endings them define our self worth.
If someone leaves you for someone else that YOU deem better somehow (richer, “better looking”, thinner, bigger, taller, funnier, whatever it is…), you are only devaluating yourself, in the end. But what you really need to do is realise that the relationship was not going to work anyways, because some of the other person’s needs were not met. You may not even know the actual reason they left you (not agreeing in generic life stuff like politics, values, hobbies, etc.) Relationships cannot always work.
What I mean is… while most every person is often afraid of being abandoned, bisexuals are very much the only ones that get discriminated against as potential partners for their sexual orientation. I do not think it is fair. See, there is the kinsey scale. A girl might be far more interested in ladies, but occasionally also enjoy a relationship with a guy who is overall a great person. However, if whenever a bi girl wants to date girls seriously, her honest intentions and her sincere feelings are being questionned (she is probably just experimenting, she will flake and go back to boys, she’s confused, she doesn’t know what she wants, etc.) it gets really old really fast. It might even be what makes some of us date men more often. The queer community can be very weary and unwelcoming, sometimes. (From personnal experience, I’ve had great success embracing my bisexuality with male partners who enjoy the fact that I also think Emma Stone is amazingly cute and smart… but my bisexuality has very often been criticised by gay girls who were not EVEN my romantic partner.)
It is SO HARD to look for a gay partner when a part of the queer community is already reluctant to even let you in based on your sexual past.
So. I guess that this is what I have to say to you in hopes you can see things from our angle a bit more. :) We’re really just cool people. We really do like women. We really do wanna date you.
There is a REASON we’re not with the guy we used to be with anymore, and there is a reason we’re now looking for a woman, right? Just focus on that. Focus on what the penis couldn’t do for us. That is : boobs.
“There is a REASON we’re not with the guy we used to be with anymore, and there is a reason we’re now looking for a woman, right? Just focus on that. Focus on what the penis couldn’t do for us. That is : boobs.”
But I have one question:
BUT WHAT THAT MOUTH DO THOUGH!?!*
*I’m so sorry, I had to!
Thank you for taking the time to provide that information. That was an enlightening response and I’m grateful for having gained that knowledge and perspective. I’m going to have to ask a difficult question though, and it may come off as offensive, but I ask out of genuine desire to understand. Anyone is welcome to respond.
In a relationship with a woman, have you ever thought you missed the penis or the muscles and hair that only testosterone can provide? And was that ever the “some of the other person’s needs [that] were not met” /what was missing that caused the individual to leave and seek them elsewhere? I think that is the ultimate question here.
I can answer the question from my point of view; I have dated both men and women and to me I don’t view the relationships and differently. I choose to be with a person because I like that person and not because they happen to have/not have a penis. I think that there is this generalization that a bisexual person will leave you to be with a guy, but they could just as easily leave you for a girl, or your lesbian partner could leave you for another girl. For me anyway it has nothing to do with missing muscles or whatever. I’m sure there are some bisexual girls who will experiment with girls and then leave them, but its unfair to judge all bisexuals based on that. I know quite a few lesbians who have cheated on partners, but I’m not going to assume all lesbians cheat.
Also, I was in quite a long relationship with a man that was completely screwed up. He was mentally and physically abusive and would constantly make me feel bad about being bisexual. He would make me get changed if I looked “like a lesbian”. So I definitely don’t agree with it being easier for bisexuals. I was judged by him, judged by my friends when I came out, judged by lesbians while dating or trying to make friends and have people constantly telling me to “make up my mind”. I think it would be easier for me if I just called myself a lesbian, at least then I would be accepted by one community, but making it easier for myself isn’t going to help other bi girls out there
XX, I’ll answer your question, though I’m not as eloquent as Michelle. For me, the answer is no, I don’t miss the physical features of guys when dating a woman. Here’s an analogy; if you were dating a women with small (but lovely!) breasts, would you miss large breasts so much that you couldn’t go your whole life without ever touching a pair of large boobs again? I mean, I can’t speak for everyone, but to me boobs of a fairly large range of sizes and shapes are all very, very appealing. And the size and shape of tits is usually not what makes or breaks relationships. Well, that’s how I feel about men and women on a physical level–I like both because, to me, they are both really pretty great. Or, since I have also find trans/genderqueer people hot– it would be more accurate to say the whole range of gender flavors is potentially appealing. For me the question of gender and what bits someone has is not the make or break question for why a relationship will or won’t work. It’s not that I don’t see gender or don’t see the differences between men and women, or the people somewhere in between, it’s just that I’m attracted to both/all of them.
No, I haven’t. And honestly, suggesting that a bisexual woman is only getting half of what she wants in a same-sex relationship betrays a massive misunderstanding about what it means to be bi. If that were true, it would mean monogamous bisexuals could never be truly satisfied in a relationship with either sex, which is clearly absurd.
Most people – regardless of their sexuality – have a range of physical and mental characteristics that they find attractive. That doesn’t mean they want a partner who embodies all of them. I mean, if you’re dating a brown haired person, but you’re also attracted to people with blond hair, that doesn’t mean you can never be happy with your brown haired partner.
Of course, there are some women that lean more towards men, and there are those who are sexually but not romantically interested in women (the opposite is also true – personally, I am usually more drawn to women). If someone is only looking for a casual relationship I think that’s something they should be honest about – but that’s true regardless of sexuality. There are plenty of lesbians who are not looking commitment either. If a bisexual woman has treated you badly, that’s about who she is as a person, not her sexuality.
And I think this needs to be said – a woman leaving a woman for a man does not by itself constitute mistreatment! Guess what, there are way more straight men out there than queer women. Statistically, someone whose attractions are approximately equal will probably end up dating more men. It doesn’t mean they aren’t really queer or that they’re unwilling to commit to a woman. How hard is that to understand?
Yes, heterosexal relationships are privleged in our soceity. But if someone makes the decision to date a woman, especially when she’s attracted to men as well, then she’s already demonstrated her rejection of society’s restrictive heteronormative standards. All the hostility and distrust is really infuriating.
It is a very interesting question. To answer, I’ll give you a bit more of a background on my person so you know where I am coming from, because I do not want to speak for anyone else but myself.
I identify as a 5 on the Kinsey Scale. I discovered I was attracted to women before I realised I was attracted to men also. When I was 3 I asked my babysitter if I could kiss her. When I was 7 a that girl Jessica kissed me on the cheek and I felt something I’d never felt before. When I was 14 I fantasised about being stranded on a desert island with Evanescence lead singer Amy Lee.
Throughout my teens, I kept having female crushes. The girl from the math class. The girl with the black eye liner. The bubbly, cheerful human rights activist. I loved them. I often realised I loved them, but it was scary, and I wasn’t yet ready for dating and love anyways.
It took a while too. When I was 18, a guy asked me out and I said yes, why not, he was fun and intelligent. Had I actively pursued him? Not really, but I got to know him and liked him. Ironically, he was the first person I really ever came out to face to face. The second person I ever came out to face to face was… my second boyfriend. It would take me many more years before I’d get to actually kiss a girl and realise that OMG BUTTERFLIES AND FIRE. D; SO BEAUTIFUL.
Basically, I’m not indifferent to men, but I’ve never actively desired or chased them either. I havn’t dated a lot, and I have had only two actual relationships, both of them with interesting men. But if you include all my crushes and past interests, men are greatly outnumbered. It is also to be understood that my physical preference definitely goes to women, but that I am nor disgusted nor uninterested in a man’s body. Therefore, I am able to date them successfully and to feel real, honest love for them, despite the fact that I normally don’t think about them. You’ll never hear me gush about Ryan Gosling or whoever else is deemed a good looking man, or the “V line” or such stuff. My attraction to men is that of a very deep friendship / mutual commitment that is doubled with physical intimacy. It isn’t my actual preference at all, but when humor, complicity and affection are there, they make lovely partners.
So do I ever “miss” muscles and body hair? In my case, the answer is no. I do not think about men sexually, generally speaking.
I do, however, fantasise at large about the shoulders of women, and their backs, and their stomachs, etc. I find them sexy, beautiful, alluring, etc. I have found myself physically desiring women whom I’m not friends or intimate with, which is never the case with men. I prefer womens looks, their bodies. That said, I am also romantically interested in them, it isn’t just my sexual preference. Of all the women I’ve loved before, I’ve always pictured myself dating them and getting them flowers on VDay. It just… it hasn’t happened so far in this life.
Men and women aren’t really that different to my eyes. I find myself not “missing” one of them when I date the other, I’m always very content with what I have. But in my case my sexual attraction to women remains when I’m single, while my sexual attraction to men is dormant and is very much on “off’ if I am not dating one. My sexual attraction to women is a lot more natural and present in my life, but my emotional attraction goes to whoever catches my heart. ;3
There ARE probably girls who work the other way around, though. Some of them may sexually prefer men but love dating great women. In the end, it’s not their percentage of gay that interests me, it’s their commitment to whoever they choose to date.
You should talk to more bi women and ask them how their heart works. You may find that there isn’t much to be afraid of at all. In the end, if they are commited in love, it is all that matters. Someone flaky is someone flaky. A commited lover is a commited lover. :)
P.S. If that gives you hope, it’s a super shitty self-made statistic, but of all the bi girls I’ve spoken to, a lot have expressed a form of preference for women, wether it is more physical or romantical!
Dear XX,
it is not about single body parts. It is about loving a person who happens to have a specific set of a body – however that body might be.
Hypothetically: If you were into gingers, would you miss it so much that you would leave your amazing and beautiful girlfriend who happens to have black hair – solely because of it? Or if you had a preference for small boobs but your amazing and beautiful girlfriend had a huge rack, would that be a criteria where your “needs [that] were not met”? Would you consider your relationship “lacking” – solely because of it?
I guess, you would not?!
So… why do you obsess over one single body part or the lack of body hair or hormones or whatever?
(1) This is internalized misogyny right there.
(2) If you think about yourself, you know it is not really about it. You know that (like for people of every sexual orientation) love and relationships have more to do with someone as a person and how great each party involved goes together in terms of values, politics, life choices, sex, mutual respect for each other, cats, humor, interests, etc.
Also … *cough* … not every bisexual person wants to marry and/or to have kids.
Why ask that question? Why not ask if a bisexual person misses breasts or a smooth face or [insert stereotype of femininity] while in a relationship with a man? And don’t forget, there’s women with rockin’ chest hair and men who are silky smooth, etc, etc.
Personally, I find a lot of different possibilities attractive. Blonde hair, red hair, black hair. Many body types. Olive skin, white skin, brown skin, freckled skin. An appreciation of spicy food and the kaiju film genre. My partner encompasses some of these attributes, but not all of them for reasons that should be obvious. I still think my partner is perfect, and have stuck around for most of a decade thus far.
Would you leave an awesome woman with black hair for one with red hair, just because you liked both colors and hadn’t been with a redhead lately? What about small vs large breasts? Or maybe innie vs outie bellybuttons? Do those ideas sound really shallow and offensive and ridiculous? I hope so.
Something else to keep in mind- no one person can fulfill absolutely everything in any relationship, nor should they be expected to. They’re human, after all. A healthy relationship lasts when you find someone that you’re compatible with who meets your important needs. Letting go of the less important wants and being satisfied is a hurdle for every relationship, no matter what combination of genders or orientations the participants are. So if your relationship with a bisexual person implodes, look up hetero divorce rate statistics and take comfort in the fact that most relationships end and it probably had nothing to do with their orientation or your gender.
I really appreciate these replies to my comments. In the end, I sense there’s a great deal of painful feelings between our two communities- lesbians and bisexuals(+queer and pansexuals). Each wants to be understood and accepted by the other but there’s this fundamental difference that cannot be ignored or erased. And that fundamental difference causes lesbians to be insecure -and spiteful- when doing so achieves nothing.
How can we respectfully accept that difference in preference and lifestyle and not have it come between relationships and relations? It’s a hard thing to reconcile because it’s so deeply rooted in our emotional response, our basic identities of who we are.
Not to mention the insecurity’s source stems from society and the patriarchy. And society and the patriarchy won’t be changing significantly for a long time coming. In that case, when will lesbians ever fully accept bisexuals? I feel that as long as society is structured in such a way to make heterosexual relationships more privileged and let’s be honest- 100% accepted relative to homosexual ones, this problem will never fully resolve, even if we converse at great lengths about it- because not everyone is going to get it. And that’s disheartening.
YES. BOOBS.
Totally agree. I think the term ‘biphobia’ is appropriate for me in particular.
My first love really scarred me. She was “bisexual” but in the end (after around 3 years), decided that she didn’t want the life that I could provide her. The conversation was literally that she didn’t want to lose her family because of the “gay” thing. She didn’t want to have to adopt/use a sperm donor, she wanted to have her own kids the “natural” way with her partner. She just wanted a “normal” life. Basically, the problem was that I wasn’t a man. And she left me with such an awful feeling of helpless inadequacy.
When it came down to it, we fell in love, but I didn’t fit into the picture of her life that she had planned. It was an incredibly painful breakup and I won’t lie, from then on, I swore I would only date lesbians. Growing up in the country, I really felt for a long time that I couldn’t blame her for not wanting this “lifestyle” because to be with me would have been such a sacrifice for her. I think maybe that might have been the worst part about the whole thing… that she made me feel that my love was somehow less than. I just never wanted to feel that way ever again.
Well that’s the fault of society, in this instance, and not bisexuality. And there are in fact plenty of lesbians who make the same sacrifice, or gay men, because they can’t hack it, or feel they lose too much if they acknowledge their homosexuality.
Not a bi issue. Nothing to do with it.
You can say that, but it certainly didn’t feel that way at the time. Still doesn’t feel that way considering the one other time I broke my rule, the girl ended up having a boyfriend and couldn’t understand why I wasn’t okay with it. At least this time, I found all of this out within a few months instead of several years. She actually said all of those things that it seems more evolved bisexuals seem to fight against: “I just can’t find someone who encompasses everything I want.” “I can’t feel satisfied with just one gender.” as if to justify why I was supposed to just be okay with it.
Things are also changing though. These experiences were from Smalltown, USA around ten+ years or so ago. I’d like to think that the farther we come, the less influenced by society glbts will be. But to be fair, I’m not really trying to start a war or anything by supporting biphobia, I’m just saying that words are one thing and experience speaks a lot louder. The comment I replied to talked about why the lesbian/bi issue involves insecurity and fear and I was simply adding my experiences to say that yeah, I think that’s exactly the root of the problem. After the way things ended with my first girlfriend, she actually made me feel like being gay was such a burden(sin), I didn’t want to bring anyone else down that path if they had the chance to avoid it. Like I was saving them from hell, lol. (Oh, the ridiculous things that Christianity will make you think…)
I realize that these experiences are just that and cannot be representative of all bisexuals, but the truth is that I never met a bisexual who really interested me beyond those partners. Knowing myself, if I met someone who made me fall head over heels, I probably wouldn’t care and would charge forward like I always do, heartbreak-be-damned. Sure, I’ve got baggage with the bisexual topic. But I think it’s also fair to say that I have baggage with love in general as anyone who has ever really been hurt knows how scary falling in love again can be. So, do I think I am still biphobic? Probably not if the right person came along, but as it is, I’m in a happily committed relationship of six years, so it’s really just not relevant to my life anymore.
I think there’s a few more inherent assumptions in this comment that need to be addressed:
– Not all women who are attracted to men want children. And, even if a bisexual woman wants children, it’s not like sperm donation/fostering/adoption aren’t things. I want kids, but my wife’s ability to produce sperm didn’t even factor into my decision to marry her.
– I can’t speak for every bisexual ever, obviously, but what attracts me to a man or woman or other person is never the same from person to person. It’s not like, “I always like skinny femme people” or “I always like muscular masculine people” or whatever, it’s just some slippery quality that certain people have that make me weak in the knees. If you went by the people I was attracted to and tried to mold yourself to what you thought was my ideal, you’d probably end up with a spinning head!
– “It’s that we can’t give everything to our lover, we can only give them half.” I don’t really understand what this means. Is this about genitalia? Or is it about the societal bullshit that many of us try to work against no matter who we’re currently sleeping with/dating/married to? Either way, my beloved provides me with 100% of what I need, and very little of that has to do with the fact that she is a woman.
Why do you assume this is what we necessarily want, though? A lot of us specifically want the OPPOSITE of that.
I’ve never wanted to get married or get pregnant, even when I thought I was heterosexual. My family is very much accepting of my being queer and dating women; hell, my parents were the first to instruct me that homophobia was wrong when everyone else in the conservative suburb I grew up in was trying to tell me the opposite. I live in a state where job discrimination isn’t a big deal and we have marriage equality and strong anti-harassment laws. If anything, all those things you described about what a man can “give me” are an argument AGAINST dating men and FOR preferring to date women.
I get that I’m probably not most women and that I’m in a position of relative privilege compared to a lot of LGBTQ people because of those things I mentioned. But I’m not alone, and I’m getting sick of lesbians assuming that MUST be the case with me and all bi women purely because of our sexual orientations. If someone is going to “leave you for a man”
(Also, a lot of lesbians just ASSUME that all that shit is at play simply BECAUSE the next person their bi ex dates happens to be male, and ASSUME she’s choosing him for his maleness rather than who he is as a person or whatever. News flash: There are more straight/bi men than gay/bi women in the world, so if a bi woman is truly unconcerned with the gender of her partners, she’s probably going to date more men than women purely because of that. It doesn’t mean she’s “choosing heterosexuality” because she happens to pick a dude anymore than she’s “choosing homosexuality” when she dates a woman.)
And you’re going to talk about phallogocentrism… I think it’s interesting that the assumption of bisexual women and bisexual men are BOTH that what we really want is a man. Bi women are assumed to be “actually straight” or destined to end up in opposite-sex relationships, bi MEN are assumed to be “actually gay” and destined to end up in same-sex relationships. Either way, the assumption is that, first and foremost, we “want the D” as Tumblr would put it. Maybe if we’re going to be critiquing phallogocentrism in society, we should talk about that, too. Because I find that assumption a way more damning example of that than anything else.
To finish that sentence fragment at the end of the first paragraph: “If someone is going to ‘leave you for a man’ that has nothing to do with their sexual orientation and everything to do with, well, everything ELSE in their life.”
Also, other pluses to dating women rather than men:
-Usually less of society imposing its gender roles on you in a same-sex relationship than an opposite-sex one. (Less, not none. I’m aware of the whole society trying to figure out “who wears the pants” and all that. Ugh.) And less having to deal with your partner’s massive privilege in that regard and assuming stupid bullshit about your gender.
-As I think others have mentioned, women usually have a way better idea of how to please another woman in bed than men do. Especially since men are kind of encouraged by society to think of their own pleasure exclusively and not consider what the woman wants at all. (There’s also the fact that most women don’t get orgasms from vaginal intercourse alone, which is what straight sex more often tends to focus on.)
I’ve had a similar experience. I live in a liberal area (NYC), My family could care less that I am queer, and I feel more comfortable in queer culture (though far from completely comfortable due to the biphobia I experience and the transphobia I’ve seen friends experience) than I do in mainstream heterosexual culture. My queer identity is important to me and whoever I end up with needs to not only respect that, but to care about LGBTQ issues themselves. I might find a man who fits those criteria, and I’m definitely open to that, but it’s actually easier to find what I’m looking for with a woman (or with someone who identifies off the binary). Not everyone finds it easier to date men.
I second all of this (other than that I live in Boston rather than NYC, but same basic principle haha). So much.
And the “not everyone finds it easier to date men” thing is so true, too. I’ve found I have the personality type (independent and outspoken, so basically “bitchy” in the eyes of a lot of stupid dudes) that turns off a lot of men, especially when it’s so different from how I often come off upon first meeting (I tend to be shy and awkward initially because of my social anxiety and Asperger Syndrome). A lot of that independence and outspoken-ness though is attractive to women, so that’s less of an issue. And I’m not about to change myself in that regard for the person I want to date.
That sort of plays into the whole gender role thing, too. Women aren’t supposed to be the ones who are independent and in-control in a traditional heterosexual relationship, and a lot of people may consciously know those stereotypes are wrong but still have internalized them to some degree. A lot of men feel threatened by outspoken female voices.
So someone told me my use of “wants the D” and such here was transphobic and I wish I could edit that and I apologize.
NO because what you’re saying is that the love a bisexual feels isn’t as valid as the love a heterosexual or lesbian feels for their partner! If the ‘penis = superior’ thing is so powerful that it could make your bisexual lover wander away from you in a hypnotised state chanting “society says penis is best! society says penis is best!” way then why aren’t you woried lesbians will go all ‘sweeps lesbian’ and ditch you for a man when her ovaries start twinging? It’s totally messed up!
I mean I’m a lesbian, but I saw the little mermaid when I was a kid, is all that phallus power imagery going to make me go straying off to the straight side of the tracks??
It’s such bs, if you love a woman / date a woman for an extended period of time you should trust her that she’s driven by love for YOU, not your vadge!!
I cant. I fucking cant. I got halfway through, I’ll try again in a minute.
If this is the same girl who did the videos I’m thinking, at least when she asked lesbians what they thought of gay men she was able to spin it and ask them what they thought the gay guys thought about them (because she had asked them the same thing). At least THERE she was trying to bridge some kind of gap by exposing the stereotypes they held and making them question them (maybe???).
All I’m seeing HERE (and granted I havent done much digging) is her asking gay dudes and lesbians what they think of people who are bisexual, without any way for us to stick up for ourselves. Like, jesus fuck man. How are you checking this group of girls on their prejudices I guess I could get to the end of the video to find out but jesus fuck man.
Shit like this is why I cant look for girls to date on OKC without getting nothing but requests from couples for a 3some. I am so fucking done.
If you watched the whole video, she does challenge the lesbians at the end by asking them if their issues aren’t really insecurity and asking them if the love of their life turned out to be bi what would they do.
But it is a really weak defense/challenge that I just found kind of half-hearted and useless. I mean, especially if no one bothers to watch to the end, it’s really just a video rehashing the same hurtful stereotypes we face everyday.
i think what annoys me most about this is that, at least two of the girls totally knew they were wrong and knew their ignorance was coming from a place of insecurity. but obviously they just find it easier to go through life pretending to be blind to that, and continue to blame another group for their insecurities and try to rationalise it with totally outdated, fucking lazy, offensive stereotypes.
So much ignorance!
Omg i’m raging so much, this is not healthy.
The argument I really just do not ever get *ever* is that damning : “But what if she leaves me for a guy?”
If your significant other goes to anyone else and breaks up because he fell out of love with you, it sucks and it hurts, period. Isn’t a breakup just ALWAYS sucky in the end? Why would you create more unecessary pain by trying to figure out if your bi ex is now dating a girl or a man? I mean, what if every middle class guy or gal was constantly afraid of their significant other leaving them for an upper middle class fella? What if musicians were always afraid of their significant other leaving them for dentists? Well it’s just how that stuff sounds to me. If I were some of these girls in the video, I’d spend more time wondering how to spend pleasurable time with my partner, and less time wondering who might be more interesting than me to their eyes.
Self-confidence and trust, please!
Ouch, this is harsh. I’ll try watching again in a minute.
to quote liz lemon
SHUT IT DOWN
Attention Lesbians who co-sign the comments on this video:
It’s a man’s word because of the Patriarchy ™ and you are dealing with insecurities because men seem like a “better” option for women; this even includes you when your relatives insist you get over your “lesbian phase.” It’s difficult to un-pack these feelings, I’ve been there. But seriously like really, really think about it, being bisexual is real and it’s hard because we live in a dichotomous society and being in the middle is always going to be difficult.
If you cannot accept the fact that bisexual women are just doing their thing and it does not affect you, then oh my goodness, get a clue. At this moment a bisexual women is having feelings for a man somewhere in the universe and it does not involve you, a second later another or the same bisexual women is having feelings for a woman and it does not bother you! Point, can a bisexual girl live? Bisexual women do not need this, they do not want to hear this. It is no surprise that a lot of these bisexual women date men because of this bull shit and numbers.
I’m not good at math, hearing “pi” makes me hungry but I know if I have a jar of jellybeans and there are more (way more) blue ones than pink…chances are I will end up having a blue jellybean. This has been my understanding of the dating patterns. People LOOOOOVE to dissect bisexual women about it and it’s probably the #1 reason some lesbian and bisexual women who internalized bi phobia say “bisexual women *end up* with men, soooo…..”
Now no one is saying you have to go out of your way to date a bisexual woman no one has to date anyone really but be humane and not rude about it.
And finally the only thing you will hear from me when asked about bisexual women:
“Hey, girl hey!*”
*assuming she’s single, which I hope she is because you know, #foreveralone
<3
Your comments are the best comments.
that moment when you love people on the internet…
Yes! And rest assured, lesbians who are not interested in bisexuals: if you do not want to date me, I am not going to cry about it cause I don’t want to date people who do not respect me/are not interested in me, and I ESPECIALLY don’t date people who are racist/classist/transphobic/biphobic.
That’s how I feel, too! If someone is going to stereotype an entire group of people because of one jerky ex who belongs to it, I don’t think they’re the sort of person I want to date anyway.
I get enough of having to deal with and debunk bisexual stereotypes with everyone else around me, I don’t want to have to do that with the person I date. So I’m no more interested in lesbians who think my sexuality makes me destined to leave them for a man than straight men who thinks it makes me especially kinky or whatever.
ohgodyesiloveyou. THANK YOU, SISTER!
Being a bi-sexual doesn’t make you any less of a person than being gay or straight. Hell, it’s tough as shit to be in that position because you’re constantly being ridiculed and told that your sexuality isn’t real.
People leave relationships for multiple reasons or sometimes just one. If she leaves you for guy, then something in that relationship was lacking (and I don’t mean the D) but emotionally and maybe even intimately. They’re putting too much focus on the hypothetical disintegration of the relationship instead of the just caring and loving the person no matter what they label themselves.
I watched this knowing it would infuriate me. I am an idiot.
welcome to the club
Wow. Just wow.
I watched this thinking it was a parody. 5:01 mins later and I’m sitting here trying not to cry/hate myself/entertain suicidal thoughts.
Do people not realise how damaging it is, for a group already marginalised by the ‘mainstream’ heterosexual community, to be further marginalised and stereotyped by the LGBT community?!
If straight people hate us and gay people hate us, where are we supposed to turn for support?
The LGBT community that isn’t as ignorant can be the support and then afterwards hold educational classes for those who might still be able to learn how to not be a complete jerk.
Remember that there are about five douchebags in the video and dozens and dozens of people calling out their bullshit in the comments here. Ignore the video, there is support and love for you here! <3
These girls are in luck, because with the exception of the not-stupid one, they will never again have to worry about dating a bisexual!
or anybody, for that matter
perfect comment
It looks fake. Whoever this was asks questions with these completely outrageous premises and the respondents kind of blandly stare up at her and reply with smirks. It’s like this was the stupid hand they were given to play, and they play it. I suspect they were told they couldn’t disagree with her questions. They don’t look like they believe half of what they’re saying (at least not to me).
I guess the (very) young woman at the end was the one who put it together? She either knows nothing or was using this as mainstream bait, trying to show the “issues in our community.”
Not that biphobia doesn’t exist…but what nerve to pretend to speak for everybody. Maybe she was just trolling? Which I’m not sure is any better.
I am not disagreeing with what you are saying, but the “(very) young woman” is actually 27.
If this was fake it was still a baaad call. These ladies just ID-ed themselves as the ones you don’t want to date to all of Autostraddle and YouTube.
I’ve seen other videos of hers (Arielle’s) and met her in person and she seems to have a kind of shallow understanding of gender/sexuality and be very invested in showing the “issues of our community” like you said.
Bisexual ladies: if you are in need of comforting anti-video makeouts, I AM HERE FOR YOU.
(seriously though, right now I am so glad that it never occurred to me that bisexuality could be a negative. I kind of thought it was a perk? even though I am to one side of the ol’ Kinsey?)
I’m glad Arielle kind of turned it around. Like, really glad. I think that it’s really great. I’m a little sad that isn’t mentioned anywhere, honestly.
The point was to show that these things are silly, and biphobia is dumb. Achieved, no?
ughughughguhgughgughghhghhhhhhhhhh FUCK THIS. also ive watched the girl in the white tshirts channel, her girlfriend is bisexual and she is very much not biphobic.
Yes, it was a relief to have her lone voice in the mix be like “Umm…those people are assholes and they’re projecting onto bisexual people.”
ok real talk ladies b/c i’m drunkish and therefore am commenting a thing as if i can just have opinions: i just feel like, if the person you like thinks you’re gross or un-datebale ’cause you’re bisexual, then you probably can’t REALLY like that person, you know? because if that person feels that way, then that person becomes a person who sucks. and you shouldn’t date or pursue a person who sucks. so it becomes a non-issue. that was the thing, i guess, when i was still dating, is if a girl wrote me off for being bisexual (the label i used at the time) then i stopped liking her just for that. and if she was weary cuz like, her bisexual ex had left her for a dude, i’d just be like, whatever, i’ll change her mind and show her how silly that idea is, and then i did. and if i didn’t, then fuck her, she sucks. and look it’s real, and privileged (don’t worry i only let myself use that word once a month, so this is it) to claim otherwise, that there are places in the world where a girl might have an easier time dating a guy than a girl for family and friends and religious and employment reasons, and sure that can be daunting to face for a female partner. but i think that’s why we’re all here fighting for equality. because things are changing so much so fast in that area. (bra said something about this up there, check that out.) these girls on this video are bitches who probs got picked for being bitches. except the girl in the white shirt who i think is ok. you’re all really beautiful humans.
Yeah like people don’t try to date people who “can’t deal” with your immutable characteristics!
Picture it: 2005 Penn State bra just came out had an OKC profile it was a bust but managed to go on a blind date due to gay guy friend….
“Oh usually I don’t go for ethnic girls but you remind of *black celebrity I look nothing like but was newly out and desperate so I was flattered* (It was Meagan Good)”
“Oh, you remind me of Ashlee Simpson!”
I never saw her again.
Did you just make a Golden Girls reference? I wish I could consensually hug you right now. And not just because that video (and some of the comments) convinced me that Sunday was a completely appropriate night for gin.
Nobody knows how to tell a story like Sophia Petrillo. Nobody. Also cheers because it’s a whiskey ginger ale night for me!
exactly.
This has been my entire experience with lesbians minus one. I am not exaggerating one bit. I would LOVE for lesbians to take an interest in me. Giddy status. But I look too straight and I’m bi for most according to past experience.
I’m glad Riese just straight up said it should be called “what bitches think about bisexuals”. It softened the blow of biphobic bullshit.
After watching both this and the gay man version (I know, I know, I’m a glutton for punishment) and raging all over myself, I’m pretty sure that the people being interviewed don’t actually know what “bisexual” means.
I watched the guy one too, and at the end the host said they were purposely over-exaggerating the stereotypes. Maybe the female one was as well.
That’s sort of the feel I got from it too, especially after I saw that part. Like, as someone said above, it seems like they’re intentionally playing up bigoted responses so that when the interviewers come on at the end they can more forcefully and convincingly speak about biphobia and labels. I can only hope that these people are acting and do not genuinely believe the shit that they’re regurgitating. Even then, ughhsdsdlgksdfg.
Oh, man (well, I guess that’s the problem here, right?).
I made a comment earlier on this site that alluded to this, but let’s lay it bare.
I identify, when forced to, as bi or queer. I’ve loved men and women, and it isn’t primary what I look for, in sex or a relationship. I generally don’t look at all, but instead fall face first and then pick myself up and awkwardly smile.
I grew up really thinking that I could choose. And I fell for a few men, but then there was a woman who split me in half. And then, years later, after another man, another woman stole my heart and I let her keep it.
When I came out to my parents, it was like many hard coming out stories. For about a month afterwards, my mom cried and told me that it was her fault for not eating the right things during her pregnancy. But there was also the another layer of “Well, why didn’t you choose a guy?” And from my brother, “Why was it important to tell our parents, if you also like guys?”
The girl I loved broke up with me 3 1/2 years later, and had the gall to ask me if it was all an experiment. After breaking up with me and living with me for 2 years.
Another friend asked me if I would go back to guys now, since girls were so complicated.
And now, I’m trying to break into a new city’s queer community, and it’s hard. On OKCupid, I get propositioned for threesomes by men and bisexual women all the time, but queer women rarely message me back (I accept that there could be many, many other reasons for this, but it could be a part of the issue). Someone suggested early on that I make two profiles, one “straight” one for the men and one “gay” one for the ladies, and that seemed almost like closeting myself again.
If you wonder why so many bisexuals end up with men, you have to also wonder why so many lesbians refuse to date bisexuals (thus reducing the probability even more). If anything, for someone like me, who is relationship-minded, bisexuality narrows the options. So many people don’t take us seriously, or find us antagonistic, or don’t think we exist. Even close friends and people I’ve lived with don’t think bisexuals really understand queer struggles, which strikes me as mindboggling.
Autostraddle is super considerate and thoughtful, but if you reach into the comments sections in a lot of places (here, for example: http://www.afterellen.com/whats-so-hard-to-understand-about-bisexuality/08/2013/) you’ll find that biphobia among lesbians is very present, along with many bisexuals who say stupid things about lesbians.
The road is hard, but I’ve got to be me being me. No other way to do it.
THIS.
Excellent comment all around. I particularly empathize with the issue of “if you can pick, why did you pick to be ‘gay?'” This sentiment led to exceptional confusion and hurt on my part…as well as visceral revulsion at the song “born this way.”
As a pansexual who is often mistaken for a bisexual… this is really depressing to me. Thank you, Autostraddle for including all queer ladies.
I don’t get the fear of competition thing. If someone who is bisexual wants to be with you, then it’s the ultimate win: you beat out everybody else.
Like if someone who identifies as bisexual is hitting on you, you must be really great. What a compliment.
What I really hate about the whole “dick in her mouth last week,” which relates to the gold star lesbian ideal, is that it reminds me of the way the society places value on a woman’s virginity over her attributes. A woman is not just a body. If you see her as a semen receptacle, you shouldn’t be dating her. Even if she makes you laugh.
By these women’s standards, I would be a gold star lesbian. I had never even kissed a man and I have only been in love with women. But that I am still attracted to men is important to me. It makes me no less faithful to my girlfriend. In fact, I’m the Queer-Straight Alliance president at my high school, and half the men there think I’m a lesbian. I wouldn’t choose any man over Ariel, because she is the sweetest and honestly the cat’s pajamas. Being pansexual just means I have the potential to fall in love with a man one day. Not that there’s anything wrong with being bi/pan just for the sexual part.
If we as a queer community want to create lasting change, we can’t antagonize one another. We’ve seen this with racism within the feminist movement, or homophobia within the civil rights movement, or even transphobia within queer movements. There is nothing wrong with loving, or being attracted to who you are in love and attracted to, as long as you are thoughtful in your relationships.
To me, at least, gender is similar to hair color. I like black-haired, gingers and brunette people. I like men, women, and gender-noncomforming people. That doesn’t mean I’d ever resent my girlfriend for having brown hair, or find her lacking in any way.
This is perfect. It really gets at what is screwed-up by a lot of the “gold star” standard (specifically, for those who treat it as a standard and act like women who don’t meet it are lesser). It’s just a more “progressive” twist on slut-shaming. Acting like a woman is inferior if she’s had sex with men isn’t much better than acting like she’s inferior because she’s had sex AT ALL. Let’s just not judge women for how many people’s genitals they’ve touched at all, please?
And I’m similar to you; I would be a “gold star” by those standards. I’ve had one serious relationship and it was with a guy, but we never kissed or had sex because it was long-distance and we broke up only a few months into the relationship when he realized he was 100% gay. The fact that you’re open to both men and women doesn’t mean you’ve necessarily had sex with both, just like, as you said, being into multiple hair colors doesn’t mean you’ve had sex with blondes AND brunettes AND redheads and so on.
Another issue I have with this is that it’s pretty much saying bi women aren’t “allowed” to identify as lesbian. Not all bi women want to ID that way of course, but last time I checked you didn’t have to be a certified Kinsey 6 to be gay/lesbian. We’re all part of one community, after all.
Especially considering Sappho wasn’t monosexual.
Eh, even as a bisexual I can understand the frustration with women who don’t, at least, have a STRONG preference in favor of other women over men identifying as lesbians, since we live in a society that doesn’t take lesbian sexuality seriously and treats women who are into women as though they could “change” if the “right” man came along. I wish there was more acknowledgement from lesbians, of course, that this is just one symptom of a larger pattern of assuming “women are nothin’ without a man” that affects women of all orientations – straight, gay, bi, asexual, whatever – in different ways. Straight women who don’t make relationships their no. 1 priority have to deal with it, bisexual women if we’re in a relationship with another woman (and the idea that we’re destined to leave her for a man, btw, plays right into this), etc.
But I can understand the frustration with bisexual women using the “lesbian” label if they feel like it furthers the idea that lesbians are still into men, even when most lesbians are clearly not.
The idea that bi women don’t belong in the “lesbian community,” though, is pretty bullshit and borne pretty much solely out of biphobia, in my opinion/experience.
So I’ve had some martinis now, which is dangerous because that means I’m going to be a lot more vocal about having feelings about things. But here’s a thing I resent: every time there’s a conversation about biphobia in the queer community, it always turns into a conversation defending and debating reasons for not wanting to date bisexuals. Now, that’s really shitty if your biphobia means you wouldn’t date someone. But at the end of the day, I’d rather you not inflict yourself on the bi/pan/plurisexuals of the world if that’s how you feel. Biphobia is more than just limiting our dating options. It makes what should be queer safe spaces inhospitable. It makes people go to events, venues, meetups and never come back because of the obvious disdain they experience at the hands of other queers. It creates a hierarchy where we’re measured as “not queer enough” to be part of the club. And when the straight word is doing the exact same thing in reverse that pretty much leaves us out in the cold without a support system or spaces where we feel welcomed without judgment. There’s this whole radical idea that we’re all unique, complex individuals and personally I expect to be treated that way and not as the personification if someone else’s insecurity and prejudice.
And now I’m going to go have another martini and cuddle some non judgmental bunnies. (actually they’re super judgmental and disapproving, but only about legitimate things like getting breakfast five minutes late.)
That’s adorable & you’re adorable! Interestingly enough, my dog has never cared about my sexual orientation and gender identity. It’s mostly the feeding and walking! Which is why I sing “Man of the Hour” by Norah Jones all the time.
Everyone needs to listen to Leigh!
Also your bunnies doing it right! #howto-priorities
This!!! I wish I’d been drinking when I watched the video, but thank God so many of the comments have been good. Here’s to martinis, good sense, and bunnies!
True story: I’ve been annoyed over this comments thread at several points today, but then I re-read about your cuddly nonjudgemental bunnies and my blood pressure levels out.
Well, in case you make it back through the comments here’s this to further lower your blood pressure:
https://scontent-b-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/269023_10100704444544303_8056598_n.jpg
Very well put. I should introduce your cuddly non-judgmental bunnies to my incredibly cuddly, pain in the butt, bear – Rupert.
People keep saying that for bisexual women, being with a man is easier because of heteronormative privilege. Maybe for some, but for a lot of queer/bi/pan people I know (including myself), being in a relationship read as straight comes with a ton of negatives. Sure, being out in the big bad world may be easier, but when you mostly travel in queer circles (because you’re fucking queer), you suddenly feel like an outsider. That lesbian bar you went to every Friday night? Nope, now you look like the random straight couple that wandered in, and you attract glares from the lesbians who agree with this video. Oh, are you an activist? Well, now lesbians are contesting you campaigning for “their” rights. You’re a writer? Lesbian readers are wondering if you have the authority to write a story about a same-sex relationship because you’re in a “straight” one.
I for one have spent a lot of time fighting for my queer identity. I love it and I’m proud of it, and having that erased is a large part of why I normally don’t date men. Every once in a while, one will slip through. But I’ve often chosen feeling included in the queer community over a relationship with a man.
i’m bisexual so i’m just gonna put that out there. but i don’t think it’s fair (or relevant) to compare these situations. people in gay relationships are ostracized by their families, are kicked out of their homes, are not allowed the same rights and privileges as straight people. you can’t compare that to some lesbians being bitches on a friday night at the bar.
i think we can discuss the very valid feelings of biphobia within the queer community without trying to one-up each other on oppression. it’s not productive.
thing is, bisexuals are ostracized by their families, kicked out of their homes, and not allowed the same rights and privileges as straight people too.
you know what, you’re absolutely right. and that’s where the focus should be. not on changing the minds of close-minded girls who won’t date or hang out with us at the lesbian bar, or the shitty friends who would kick us to the curb for having a boyfriend. we give those people too much attention and weight in these conversations. maybe because they’re here and so it’s easier to focus on that conflict. but really we should think about how the truth is exactly what you just said, figilina.
Agreed, Jenny. I’d take getting the stank eye in a lesbian bar anyday if I had a home to go to, loving supportive family members and a mate that accepted me as I am.
OH YES YES YES THESE ARE MY FEELINGS AND EXPERIENCES TOO
This video makes me hate being bisexual.
Normally, I really love being bisexual, because it matches perfectly with my personality. I am omnivorous and capricious and in thrall with humans of all amazing genders. I love revealing the complexity of situations. I love being this way, because I tried to be another way, and it made me sad.
However. When I imagine being a lesbian, I would not want to date me. Which is sad because I so love lesbians. I completely understand the pain of worrying about dudes. I have spent most of my life feeling worthless compared to men. That’s not just my self-confidence issues; that’s growing up sensitive and female in a world that hates women. I think it’s facile to insist that lesbians just have to “get over” their insecurities about dating someone who might be attracted to men. It’s like, “Go to therapy and sort out your issues with patriarchy so you won’t complain as much anymore and make people around you uncomfortable.”
(I’m not a lesbian, so I can’t assume that feelings of being less than men is a thing that any lesbian worries about. I am making an educated guess. If bisexual aversion is really about the yuck factor of “penis” [childish and reductive synecdoche, THAT] or “contradiction,” I have much less political sympathy for that.)
I do wish the conversation could be changed to discussing the effect patriarchy has on our relationships, rather than the supposedly disgusting qualities of bisexuals. Sometimes I think I would rather be 100% gay to somehow escape patriarchy. But I’m not. I have to deal with men, even in my relationships with women, and this sucks.
Not gonna lie, even though I love being bisexual, I hate the effect it has on some women. Most days I put some quality time into wishing REALLY HARD that I could be transformed into a lesbian so that I could date people without giving them an anxiety disorder based on my mutability. But then I remind myself that it ain’t never gonna happen! I can’t pray the straight away!!! I have to love myself as is. I have to be myself and be honest with people. And if that means women have some reservations about me, so be it. If that means I can’t date White Dread Woman…thank you, Sweet Lesbian Jesus.
Also, this: http://daxsymbiont.tumblr.com/post/39889556104/ok-so-what-no-one-tells-you-about-bisexuality-is
This makes me so sad. I’m not bi, but before I’d dated either gender, I tried to come out as bi, and it really didn’t go well. (It didn’t help that I present as wicked femme, even when I don’t aim to.) I know what you’re talking about because I’ve seen it, too. Not all lesbians are this insecure, I swear! I really really hope that you meet more women who can appreciate you and date you without the reservations and anxiety attacks. It’s admirable that you try to see things from their point of view, but please be careful not to take on their baggage. Anyone who can’t get past something as non-negotiable as your orientation is not worth your time. Good luck and hang in there! You do you!
“I do wish the conversation could be changed to discussing the effect patriarchy has on our relationships”
Me too, because this is where so much lesbian insecurity comes from and it’s not something that can be magicked away via shrinks or meditation or the desire to be politically correct. It affects all women’s lives and particularly those of dykes who have no option to expand their dating pool by seeing men and are often completely alienated by the insidious heteronormativity in everyday family and working life.
I understand that many bisexuals are hurt and angry at their perceived rejection by some lesbians, and I also understand why some lesbians are wary of bisexual women after being dumped for men in a society where men already get most of the privilege and lesbians get a large dollop of shit + no crawl-out-of-the-ghetto card.
These are twin realities for a lot of people but the hate they stir up is never going to be resolved by lesbians dissing bisexual women in a video or bisexual women dissing lesbians in a comments thread like this one. A bit more appreciation of our relative privileges and the forces that impact on all our relationships: patriarchy, heteronormativity & cisnormativity would be a welcome & a loving thing.
I just really love that we got this comment section as a result of this video. All the comments here are treasures either for the anger, vulnerability or sass.
Autostraddle The Alchemist: making gold out of sh*t since 2009.
I agree. Well done, comments section. Now put on your rainbow tights and unicorn thinking caps and get ready to debate Syrian policy.
All of us on staff need fancy State Alchemist titles now a la Fullmetal Alchemist.
S. That. D.
Shut it down.
I didn’t even bother watching the video… I couldn’t even make it through the write-up without getting rage-y.
Pretty much everything said by the lesbians in the video is terrible, but I like how Arielle sort of turned it around on them at the end. She’s trying to show people how ridiculous the whole ‘hating on bisexuals’ thing is, and I think that’s good!
I’ve been subscribed to Arielle’s channels for many years, and while it might look like she’s ‘trolling’ here, she’s really quite a nice person just trying to show what actually goes on in the LGBTQ community by bringing up the touchy subjects. Not many people on youtube are brave enough to do that.
“We exaggerated stereotypes to bring awareness to this issue.” –this is what is stated in the guy version.
On Arielle’s FB page:
“What lesbians think about bi-sexuals will be up on Sunday. It’s gonna be a war zone in the comments but it needs to be done.”
This video was supposedly intended to open up a discussion about bi-phobia but has failed. Exactly what was done in it?
– Ask her guests questions that feed into negativity & stereotyping.
-Ask her guests questions yet only show the answers of 2 women.
-Give a 30 second PSA that we shouldn’t focus on labels.
Puuuhhhleease.
Ive seen some of Arielles other videos & some i find funny. Her attempt to a discussion is is a joke. And a very bad one too. As for her guests, the only person I see that may have biphobia is the woman with dreads. I think her offensive comments really speak for themselves. The others not so much.
I agree. Everyone is saying that we should give Arielle credit for opening up a dialogue when really she basically said “shouldn’t we go a tiny bit easier on bisexuals cause they’re not quite as slutty and indecisive as we think they are”? That’s weak.
I think everything about this video is superficial.
The title is pure clickbait.
Controversial comments are evoked by the creator of the vid asking shallow, intentionally provocative questions.
Add one really awful, bigoted person in there and boom – a bunch of YouTube views result.
We’re being played.
Me every after 10 seconds: “WHAAAT??!! @*#?!/”
Also, this: onehundreddollars.tumblr.com/post/54544214146/my-favorite-definition-for-bisexuality-so-far-is
I wish everyone would get along like we used to middle school, I wish I could *rage* bake a cake filled with rainbows and smiles and everyone eat and be happy. BI-PHOBIC JERKS DON’T EVEN GO HERE!
Excuse me, I have a lot of emotions and feelings, feelings and emotions.
This.
Gretchen, stop trying to make biphobia happen.
I managed to get to 1:52 before I had to stop the video and *hulk smash* EVERYTHING.
I agree with GoS – what’s with this ‘clickbait’?? Why deliberately post hate-speak in a queer online space? I have no idea who this person is who made the video but she seems to be getting a heck of a lot of enjoyment out of publicising bigotry. Really sad and weird :(
This is totally NOT my experience as a ‘bi’ (I prefer queer, but for the purposes of this article bi will do..) woman.
The biphobia I have experienced has come from the straight friends of partners suggesting that because I like more than one gender that I’m going to cheat on their mate. Sigh.
Maybe the difference is that my ‘scene’ is more a queer scene than a mainstream one. My limited experience of mainstream gay culture is one that is just as restrictive in its ideas of how we should all be fitting into boxes as mainstream straight culture is. In the queer spaces I’m more used to, people just seem to *get it* that you can fancy different genders, that sexuality can be fluid, that everyone is difference, that some people are promiscuous and others aren’t and the way to tell is usually by asking them rather than finding out if they’re bi.
I said it on the Gaga/Miley post, and I will say it here:
I feel like we Bi’s can’t win. Bad guys are only interested in co-ed three-ways/fearful we will leave them for a woman (Damn, you Jenny Schecter) and Bad Girls are afraid we WANT a co-ed three-way/are fearful we will leave them for a man (still not helping Jenny). Assuming I am non-committal because of your own insecurities is fucked up. I shouldn’t have to walk around screaming “I WANT SOMEONE TO COMMIT TO ME! IM DOWN FOR COMMITMENT! NOT COMMITMENT-PHOBIC!” Although, those would make for some pretty interesting, and possibly lucrative bumper stickers…
As someone who frequently watches Arielle’s vids, and did finish the vid, Arielle ALWAYS is sure to throw in her opinion, which is that Bi-bashing is occurring too frequently, evinced by how the vid ends.
I wish everyone could just accept everyone else regardless of sexual identity/sexual preference/sexuality.
This is is just too ridiculous. I have no more words.
I refuse to watch that video. I don’t need that shit in my life.
Im not sure I feel as strongly about this video as everyone. It is a very one sided view on the Bi debate, but some of the points made not all, have been valid. That’s of course a generalised view. I see a lot of rants but not a lot of arguments that suggests they are wrong.
which points made in the video do you think are valid, exactly?
still nothing pointing the other way though?
Were the arguments made in this video something you have never really heard before?
Just as it is true some bisexuals are truly so, it is also true to say that a lot of straight girls gone rogue call themselves bisexuals. Should we have an open space where everyone can be themselves exactly as they are at the time they feel it of course, but some lesbians have had to learn the hard way that dating a bisexual can end in terrible result, not every time but it can happen and how often do you hear of a self identified lesbian going to men?
Nothing is straightforward but just as much as i agree with the outrage here I also don’t disagree with the points made on the video.
I was asking you to say exactly which points you think are valid; so you seem to be saying that some straight girls call themselves bisexuals, date lesbians, and then….leave them? ok. there’s actually been a lot of discussion here about this idea. First of all, I question this being in any way a widespread thing. There probably are some young straight women who will on occasion do something like make out with a girl only in order to seem sexy to men; that situation is fairly easy to spot, and not the end of the world if it happens to you. Enjoy the makeout and move on, ladies. If a woman is having sex with and in a relationship with another women, she’s probably not “straight.” Many people’s sexuality is not wholly either straight or gay; that’s just how human sexuality is, folks. Her relationship with you is therefore real, and just as potentially meaningful as any other; lesbians are just as likely to use you for sex, dump you for someone else, or genuinely fall in love with you, as bisexuals are. In fact, speaking as a queer woman, I’ve never cheated on anyone, and I’ve been cheated on….by a gold star lesbian. Your picture of the “rogue” straight girl and the heart-breaking bisexual is based on stereotype, not fact. Please go and read Lisa Diamond’s Sexual Fluidity; this data-based study indicates that over their life-course, many women who identify as lesbian find themselves experiencing attraction to men, just as women who have been wholly heterosexual can fall in love with a woman. That does not mean that there are not also women whose sexuality remains the same over their whole lives (whether they are straight, lesbian, or people to whom gender does not matter)-but the fact is that you have no idea what your or other people’s sexuality is going to look like in ten years time. So cut the bisexuals some slack, we can be amazing girlfriends, friends, and political allies, and you might be one of us one day.
What, exactly, is the “terrible result” of lesbians dating bisexuals? That sometimes they break up with you? Guess what, sometimes relationships don’t work out. A lesbian might leave for you woman, a bisexual might leave you for a man OR a woman, and either might leave you and just stay single for awhile. How is being left for a man any worse than the other possibilities? A relationship ending when you’re not ready to let it go is a seriously painful experience, but I cannot understand why the gender of your ex’s next partner matters at all.
I agree with Rose: there is no “bi debate.” There are bigots who judge people based on sexual orientation (something I find especially infuriating when it happens within the LGBTQ community – we should know better), and there are those that look at each person as an individual.
I think it’s strange to say there’s a “bi debate.”
Stereotypes and erasure are not one argument in a “debate,” they’re just hateful bullshit.
I already feel like an erased queer because I realized I’m pansexual while living somewhere it’s not ok to come out, and then I fell in love with a man and we got married, bang boom done. Now I feel extra erased. I haven’t dated women – but then again I’ve only dated TWO PEOPLE EVER and I married the second one, and they happened to both be men. But I’m pansexual, my husband knows that, my family knows that (well, they think bisexual because I was too lazy to explain the difference but whatever).
So, I’m a queer with limited queer experience married to a man. I wonder what these so-called lesbians (aka bitches) would think of me. And I didn’t marry a man because it’s easier, I married him because I love him and want to spend the rest of my life of him. I couldn’t care less what societal privilege that brings, even though I realize I’m lucky to be able to make the choice to get married.
Sorry, having a moment here. Ugh, identity erasure. :(
And yes I realize it was kind of a joke but still.
I’m glad you at least admit you’re lucky to have the choice to get married. Maybe consider that not caring about privilege is a privilege too; one that women in relationships together have a lot less of.
It’s been my experience that lesbians with this “opinion” about bisexuals have an “opinion” about everything. Which they feel obligated to share. With everyone.
Agreed – I’ve noticed a lot of overlap between biphobia and other biases, specifically transphobia. There seems to be an idea among some cis lesbians that anyone that they can associate with men, whether it be because they have been intimate with men or because they were assigned male at birth, is somehow inferior and shouldn’t intrude on “lesbian spaces”. It seems to stem from a warped understanding of feminism that sees men (as opposed to patriarchy) as the enemy.
Of course, this is only a subset of the community and there are many, many, lesbians who do not feel that way. I would certainly not judge anyone for being a lesbian – I look at each person as an individual and don’t make judgments about an entire group based on the actions of a few of its members. All I ask is for others to do the same.
It sounds like you’re trying to invert privilege and reclaim it as intersectional disadvantage over anything cis lesbians might experience, which is b/s.
I fail to see how pointing out that different biases are often linked together is an attempt to “invert privilege.” I think many problematic attitudes have similar roots, and it is important to look at how they are connected to one another. I know that not every lesbian holds these beliefs, and I would never assume that a given individual did unless she explicitly stated so.
I’m not trying to claim any particular advantage or disadvantage, and I’ll gladly own my own privileges: I have white privilege, cis privilege, and the privilege of being typically read as straight. Although I more often date woman, I still have a degree of privilege because I might one day fall for a man, and that relationship would be more fully accepted by society than a queer relationship. As a pansexual woman I also have certain disadvantages, such as my sexuality not being taken seriously and being subjected to discrimination by both the straight and lesbian communities.
I frankly don’t care whether plurisexuals or lesbians have it worse – the fight to win the title of most oppressed has never interested me. the important thing is to recognize that we each have our own challenges, along with our shared challenges as queer women. Both groups are victims of oppression, and we should be fighting on the same side.
there’s a very interesting article written about bisexuality called “the epistemic contract of bisexual erasure” by kenji yoshino for the stanford law review, which is freely available online.
the language is very academic but the content is eye-opening, anyone who has qualms about the existence or validity of bisexuality should definitely have a look.
I’m obsessed with Kenji. I read his book, Covering, for a class a couple of years ago, and even though it’s mostly from the legal perspective, it really applies to so much of life….
Please don’t say “we’re not all like this!”. While it may be true not every single self-identified lesbian believes this nonsense, these are all things I have been told directly by self-described lesbians IN PUBLIC in queer spaces. I don’t get told these things one-on-one in private. Nope, I’ve been told these things in queer bars, prides, and other gatherings with lots of people to hear and nod their heads in agreement.
These feelings and thoughts are pervasive in the lesbian community.
This is also my experience :/.
I wanted to agree with you, asi note that happily some women are commenting they have experienced little to no biphobia elsewhere in the comments. Good for them, but at least for me, both on and off line, in the experiences of myself & my friends, biphobia is alive and well in the glbtq+ community and it needs to be named and shamed and dealt with.
“I think if she was hot and had a great personality I could ignore the fact she had a dick in her mouth last week”
I can’t believe it was a lesbian that said this and not tucker max
seriously; there is a definite crossover between biphobia and slut-shaming/sex negativity. lesbians should know better.
I had macaroni and cheese in my mouth last week…does that mean lactose-intolerant people won’t date me?
Cheesexual people are just greedy. They want to have sex with people and also eat cheese?? What?? Impossible. Cannot be. They will just leave you when they see a tasty slice of pizza!! Warning!!
::Deep, Exasperated Sigh::
this hurt my heart.
WTF… I certainly hope that this is not the thoughts and feelings of all lesbians. While I don’t mean to categorize, or marginalize anyone, but I can’t help but notice the age group of the women/girls being interviewed… WTF do they know. I’m in my 60’s, and I’ve been around the block a couple of times, I’m married and have a GF who I’ve been with for quite a few years now and I can honestly say that I can’t remember the last time that I had a cock in my mouth let alone in my Janey.
Love is love, and people need to get over themselves. It’s a big world out there ladies, room for everyone.
Wow. Talk about hurting our own cause.
Bi does not mean Poly. Having had relationships with men in the past does not mean I love my partner any less, nor am going to maliciously cheat, then use the excuse of “Well, I’m not a pure Kinsey-6/110% lesbian, so it’s okay!” …No. Love is commitment. & My current love for her would be no less real or valid, if I had only ever been with women before meeting her. WTF.
This is internalized hate, dividing our own LGBT community.
This is “defensive othering”, and it’s insecure & hurtful.
You are being no better than the bigots who put us ALL down.
No need to go looking for random video lesbians on the internet to rage at. Because guess what – biphobia is common, accepted, rewarded, encouraged and defended ardently and gleefully right here.
To everyone raging about how horrible the biphobic views in this video are, please head over to the comments section on the recent Lady Gaga article and rage at the biphobic views that are liberally slathered all over it by members of THIS community.
http://develop.autostraddle.com/lady-gaga-loves-lesbians-defends-miley-cyrus-let-the-flamewars-begin-195105/#comment-331470
Well, since you’ve mentioned that particular comment section, in it everyone keeps talking about how we should respect bi women who view lesbians are unlovable – how it’s okay for them to ~love pussy~ but not want a relationship with women, it’s okay to use lesbians as quick fun to pass the time while you wait for a man who’s “just like a lesbian” to come and sweep you off your feet. In that particular comment section everyone’s outraged by the suggestion that a bi woman’s views of her sexuality could be in any way tainted with misogyny. But the funny thing is that all of this talk about how sexuality is innate and everything is okay and any kind of queerness is equally valid etc obviously does not apply to lesbians. They have the duty to date everyone. There’s clearly no double standard there.
Nope. What people are saying over there is that the assumption that bi women think lesbians are unlovable is bullshit biphobia.
Lady Gaga pretty much said that she finds lesbians unlovable – is it biphobic to infer meaning from her words?
The problem is that bi women saying they don’t date lesbians is A-OK, they’re just expressing their innate, perfectly fine, perfectly not misogynist attractions – when lesbians say they don’t date bi women that’s biphobia. And – yes, please notice that Lady Gaga mentioned lesbians *specifically*, she didn’t say “women come on hard etc”, she said *lesbians* do that – and she was appealing to the (well known and very harmful) stereotype of lesbians as mannish and aggressive.
This whole discussion just seems like another variation of the petrifying spectre of the lesbosupremacy in feminism. By which I mean this overwhelming fear straight feminists – and, in all fairness, pretty much everyone else has that scary butch lesbians are controlling feminism and women’s lib needs to be reclaimed from them – by nice, gender-conforming straight women. This fear then leads, among a lot of other things, to projects like “we are what a feminist looks like” or “who needs feminism” which, 9 out of 10 times, are all a painfully drawn out ~no homo~. Interestingly, I’ve never heard a straight woman say, “I’m a feminist but I’m not bisexual” – it’s always, “I’m a feminist but I’m not a lesbian”.
I know that the possibility of nuance in this discussion went out the window about 100 comments ago – but please think of the homophobic and misogynist ways in which, in women’s spaces, lesbians are the ones who are constantly portrayed as not just aggressive, gross and unlovable – but as possessing some kind of special privilege (usually represented as something akin to ~male privilege~, since society, apparently, treats gender non-conforming women just like it treats cis men) which allows them to machiavellianly take over women’s spaces. Which could not be farther from the truth, of course. As anyone who’s tried to gain access to women’s spaces dominated by straight women, if you’re there, you’re already taking too much space – you’re already having too much power – it’s already time for you to go etc.
ALL of these things contribute to this image of lesbians as oppressors of bi women.
Andreea both are equally reprehensible.
It’s not a zero-sum game.
@ Kathryn – you’d never know it from this discussion. A handful of comments in a stupid, shit-stirring video featuring a very small handful of women have been used as justification to hate on lesbians for over 200 comments, with posts calling lesbians “bitches” made by women who’ve never dated another woman receiving like after like while posts that say anything whatsoever in defence of lesbians or even just trying to balance out the difficulties both bisexuals and lesbians have to overcome to date one another have been routinely ignored or shouted down.
The zero-sum game here is mutual hate, which is a real shame when you consider that what we’re talking about, behind the b/s, are sex and love.
Um nope, nobody is hating on “lesbians” in this post or these comments. In fact many of the people levelling criticisms and insults are in fact lesbians themselves. You may be misled by the title of the video, which should have, as Riese pointed out, referred to “bitches” INSTEAD OF “lesbians”. Because it’s the biphobic bitches people are railing against here, not generalized lesbiandom.
There is no double standard people are just asking to just think about “why” and if such conclusion is bi phobia or what have you, you still do not have to date bisexual women, or anyone really.
It IS OK for bi women to be sexually attracted to men & women, but only romantically attracted to men, esp. when they are up-front about it and only claim to speak for themselves. One of the issues with Gaga was insensitive phrasing and and the ways that she gets represented by (mostly straight) people in the media when she doesn’t choose her words carefully. Speaking just from my POV, it’s a communication/representation issue, not a problem with how Gaga is wired.
And I have never heard anyone say that lesbians are obligated to date everyone . . . till just now.
You haven’t read some of the awful transphobic comments with some assholes parroting lines like: “WAIT YOU EXPECT ME TO HAVE SEX WITH SOMEONE WITH A PENIS WHEN I GET TRIGGERED BY PHALLUSES ??” when people have said that women who have penises are still women.
And now you don’t need to read them because ugh.
The issue of who someone’s romantically attracted to rather than sexually attracted to is pretty interesting and I wish everyone was honest about this cause it would prevent a lot of trouble.
There seems to be a big movement to present all bisexual people as being equally sexually and romantically attracted to all genders and while this is certainly true for some people, where it’s untrue feelings needlessly get hurt, which isn’t fair on anybody.
It may be ok for someone to be romantically attracted to men but want sex with women. It’s equally ok for lesbians and biromantic women to protect themselves by opting out of relationships with those women if they fear there’s a danger they’ll want more.
There’s no double standard. Everyone should be honest about what they are looking for. If a bi woman isn’t looking for a relationship with another woman, she should be upfront about that and not lead anybody on. Maybe someone doesn’t think they could fall in love with a woman because of internalized homophobia and/or misogyny, or maybe they are really just more into men – either way, it’s important to be honest and straightforward about your intentions. The same applies to lesbians who are only looking for casual sex. If you and a potential partner are looking for different things out of a relationship, that’s a perfectly valid reason not to date them.
Let me put it this way – if you dated a blond who treated you poorly would you believe that all blonds make bad girlfriends (I’ll stick with haircolor, since several people have used that analogy)? If someone held this belief, would you defend it as rational? If not, why is it OK to not date bisexuals because you, or someone you know, happened to have a bad experience with a former partner?
You know what is not a healthy thing to say, comments like “I’m bi and I’m not offended by this, neither should you…relax…calm down.” Genuinely, I find it amazing that people have such thick skin, thus comments said in the video does not phase them; However, estimating and valuing a woman’s worth dependent on the genitalia said female has come in contact with, is degrading.
There is a difference between preference and preference based on ignorance. Cheating and bad relationships does not discriminate from sex/sexuality/age.
Hopefully, if by reading the comments on their video or this article, they will learn that some of the things said can hurt people. I don’t think they need to change their preference, or start dating bisexual individuals, I don’t think of them any less, just some people who showed their true colours or were succumbed by brain fart-word vomit.
While I agree with you completely Natalie, it’s easy to see where the “I’m bi and I’m not offended…” might come from. That think skin is essential to keeping your sanity.
You become deaf to it when you hear shit like this all the time, coming from lovers, from friends, from the queer family you made when your birth family rejected you, from people who are (usually) staunch LG(BTQ?) activists.
It’s incredibly painful to see it for what it is, because it means that no one really accepts you.
I agree with you completely as well, I just want to highlight that it was the latter part of the quote that bothered me, the -I’m not offended so others shouldn’t be either- part. It is very essential to be able to shrug it off for sanity sake, but some people are not able to shrug it off and like to call a spade, a spade.
I didn’t watch the video, just scanned through the comments, which is enough.
What does this lesbian think about bisexual girls?
They should totally call me.
get it grrl!
Oh! So I just actually watched the video (like a few other people here my initial reaction was that I didn’t need to put myself through that bullshit.)
But anyways, it’s actually not that bad. And what I mean by that is that actually I hear exactly that kind of shit all the time and sometimes worse.
In real life. In autostraddle comments. From strangers in bars. From good friends who mean well and should know better.
Despite all the grossness in that video, this comments section is hands down one of the best ones I’ve seen on anything bi-related on Autostraddle. So let me say thank you to all of my fellow bi Straddlers and everyone else who’s posted SO. MANY. GREAT. COMMENTS.
I struggled for a long time with coming out as bisexual. I had so much internalized biphobia going on that I initially told myself “You just wish you were gay” when I was trying to figure out what was up with Ye Olde Queer Feelings. And then, when I started to realize that I actually am queer/bi, I spent quite a while longer wishing I could just be a lesbian. Because that’s something that people can understand, that’s something that I could understand, and it was so much less scary to me than this amorphous middle ground that I live in. I still often feel like I don’t quite fit in queer spaces any more than straight spaces, thanks in part to the prevalence of sentiments like those expressed in this video.
But as I grow into my identity, I’ve realized that the best thing I can do for myself and for others like me is to be myself and build my own community as I go along. And I am so grateful to have Autostraddle as a part of that. You folks are awesome; thank you so much for helping me to know that I’m not alone and that my difficulties aren’t all in my head.
Hey, I came a bit late to the comment party but I just want to remind everyone to please not be cissexist when talking about biphobia! Being a man does not equate to having a dick and being a woman does not equate to having breasts and a vagina. My being attracted to the same gender and other genders does not mean I like “dick and pussy” or any similar phrase. I don’t mean to rain on everyone’s parade but I have been seeing some comments that are completely great except for the fact that they equate genitals with gender, so please be mindful of that when making a comment!
On that exact same note this video is ridiculously transphobic, like you could be 100% lesbian and have had a girl’s “dick in your mouth” last week.
Thanks Krissy I agree with you (as usual)! And now I feel bad for using “wants the D” in my comment (but I was referencing the previous commenter’s phallogocentrism so I hope it’s not technically cissexist, I’m not sure. I try not to be like that, as much as possible).
THANK YOU. Yeah ugh.
(And Rose, yeah, you were. I know you were replying to someone going ‘but don’t you BI LADIES ever MISS PENIS when you’re with women?!?!’ but that doesn’t mean you have to respond on that same level)
Thanks for letting me know and if I could edit my comment, I would.
yw/ty
I agree completely. As soon as I wrote it, I wished I could go back and edit my first comment to say “any gender” where I said “either sex” and to point out that not everyone with a penis is male. As I mentioned in another comment, I’ve definitely observed a high correlation between biphobia and transphobia in the cis lesbian community. I have no interest in policing who people are attracted to, but it is not OK to act like any woman who either has a penis or has slept with a cis male or pre/non-op trans woman is somehow a worse person because of it.
This video confirmed some of my worst dreads about making my timid way out into meeting women. And then the comments bolstered me up again. A SUNRISE/SUNSET OF BULLSHIT.
Hahahahaha “worst dreads.” I love the (possibly unintentional) pun there.
They do look aweful, but now I’m being just as much a bitch as she was :)
This reminds me of going to Jewish private school and being told I “wasn’t a real Jew” because my family had a Christmas tree and we didn’t belong to a temple.
Years later, I’m not really “queer” because I’m bisexual…and I’m even less of one because I’m in a relationship with a man.
People hate and fear what they don’t understand. If you cannot see the rainbow spectrum of sexuality for what it is, then I feel bad for you. You are missing out on so much beauty in the world.
And so many boobs. SO.MANY.BOOBS. That you will never see or touch or anything. Good luck with that.
I’ve found it hard to watch Arielle’s videos since she made a face book post last year that said something along the lines of “Things to do before the world ends: steal a black girl’s weave.” Of course, about 95% of the comments that followed that post were racist e.g “Don’t do it! Black girl’s will do [insert overly aggressive action here]” Anyway, when I called her out on it, she responded by saying “Oh, I love how people are calling me racist now, but they don’t say anything when I make gay jokes” and something along the lines of “I think the world would be a better place if we didn’t give words so much power.” She can miss me with that bullshit. Also, I agree with pretty much everything Riese said.
The white girl with faux dreadlocks was terrible in other ways too WHAT A SHOCKING DEVELOPMENT
Thank you for posting this! I mean the video is a total bummer, but I’m so glad Autostraddle is vocal about biphobia. It makes me feel like a real person! It’s people like the women in this video that make me feel unwelcome in the gay community because I also date guys. I remember when I first came out, feeling very betrayed when I realized that the supposed unconditional support and acceptance people told me existed in the LGBT community actually didn’t apply to me. I don’t feel a part of the gay community at all because of this. I’m probably equally attracted to men and women, but I mostly dated guys in the past because I don’t have to deal that suspicion that I get from a some lesbians. I wish that wasn’t the case, but it is.
I feel the need to share that one of my friends is one of the people interviewed in this video. She didn’t realize how this video was going to be edited and now she keeps calling me up because she is completely heartbroken and devastated of how this video made her look. As much as I admire Arielle and her business smarts, she is making all these girls in this video look bad and in the end making herself look like the hero in order to get more plays (and in the end more money from ads).
Can you ask your friend to tell us what she actually said and how exactly the video editing misrepresented her? Or better yet, to come here and explain it herself in the comments? I would be genuinely interested to hear her side.
Well, I’ll just add that Arielle definitely didn’t make herself look like the hero, at least not to me. She recorded (and edited) a bunch of lesbian women who said biphobic shit and then come up with a half-hearted “maybe you’re just insecure” at the end so that she didn’t come across as endorsing it. – But Arielle certainly isn’t exactly condemning biphobia, either.
I’ll also echo what Chandra said and say I’d be interested in hearing what bits were edited out of your friend’s interview? To be honest, I’m less interested in her explaining her motivations or what she meant to say…but I AM interested in hearing if there was context edited out of her answers that might change what her words mean.
I am so very over the whole bi girls are slutty/cheaters/greedy shit. I can honestly say that for me there is no difference in being in a relationship with a bi/pan girl and being in a relationship with a lesbian. At the end of the day I just want to be with someone who loves and respects me as I do her, makes me laugh and that I’m attracted to.
I just don’t even know.
Just…my keyboard is in a million pieces against my floor, right now, from where it hit the wall with maximum force.
Okay, not really…but this video is just so rage inducing. And the counter-arguments usually made to this kind of piss me off too. It’s all respectability politics: “plenty of bisexual women end up in long-term monogamous relationships with other women…and most bisexual women aren’t ‘greedy,’ etc.” – That’s the counter-argument and it still leaves me out.
I am consensually non-monogamous. And I have relationships with men and women at the same time (OMG!). And I’m kinky. And I love to flirt. And I’m femme (at the minute, but not always). And I never want kids or to settle down. And…and…and…I tick off most of the ‘bad bisexual’ boxes out there. Like, maybe I am greedy…I dunno…but so long as me and my partners are all consenting why the heck are you judging me for it? Y’know? Ugh.
Heather! You are a gal after my own heart!
The only counter argument I am ever willing to give is “shut up and stop asking me/anyone to justify their sexuality!”
It doesn’t make me many friends, but fuck that, I didn’t come here to make the kind of friends who feel like they have any place deciding whether my sexuality is good/valid/queer/honest/real/acceptable/respectable/understandable enough.
I will not offer you my life story so that you can decide whether it’s ok for me to be the way I am. Fuck. That. Shit.
So, bearing in mind that this comment is fueled by a couple of glasses of wine:
HeatherN, I so agree with you. “Respectability politics” are a big part of how marginalized groups wind up hurting each other and themselves in order to gain more acceptance, at least from my point of view. And many of the charges that are leveled against us bi/pan folks often fail to isolate dishonest (and therefore shitty) behavior from consensual, fully informed transgressions of what our society thinks a relationship “should” be. And then we wind up justifying ourselves by disowning behaviors, identities, PEOPLE who deserve a place at the table.
I hate that in this big f*ing mess of a world we–all of us–are so often expected to justify who we are and who we love/like/fuck. I truly wish that we could all get over our fears of someone “tainting” our identity labels and instead worry about whether we as individuals are decent to other humans. Like people of every other orientation, some bisexual folks are monogamous, some are poly, some have a lot of sex, some none at all–and that is THEIR BUSINESS. As long as we are upfront with current and potential partners, there’s nothing there TO criticize, never mind whether anyone has the right to do so!
Heck, I don’t really know where I’m going with this anymore, except to say that I’m sad that you feel excluded by this discussion and others like it. I want you and others like you to feel welcome in my queer community, and I hope that I’m learning how to claim my identity without raining on anyone else’s Pride parade. You do you, I’ll do me, and let’s all try to give each other the space and support to be our best selves.
Luckily I’ve found lovely pockets of inclusivity both online and in the real world, so it’s not all bad. :) It’s just so frustrating that the ‘mainstream’ lgbt politics/culture/whatever tend toward the least inclusive.
Oy vey…dreadlock girl in particular is hard to listen to.
But in her defense, “Where the Red Fern Grows” is an awesome book.
When I was a kid, my best friend and I had an ongoing game were we pretended to be the dogs and acted out scenes from Where the Red Fern Grows. We never got to acting out the end though, because you know, sadness.
From Twitter, I learned that she (the girl with the dreadlocks) made a follow-up video where she says she was joking about what she said: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7cq3R6Dnv0&feature=youtu.be
Personally, as a bisexual, this whole thing makes my head hurt.
Wow. What’s the lesbian equivalent of mansplaining?
^Want to clarify that I meant Courtney’s vid, not the comment I was replying to lol Seriously, that video was like listening to an MRA explain that in *his experience*, women are gold-digging skanks who friendzone him in favor of alpha males. :P
She should’ve just left it at the video by Arielle. She’s revealing herself to be an even bigger piece of shit by saying that bisexuals have no sense of humour. AHAHAHAHA BECAUSE IT’S SO HILARIOUS TO BE TOLD THAT YOU’RE A DISHONEST SLUT WHO’S UNWORTHY OF LOVE.
I don’t hear anyone condemning polyamory in the comments. People simply object to the conflation of bi/pansexuality and polyamory. Of course, it’s totally possible to be both, but they aren’t the same thing. The stereotype we are trying to combat is that bi/pansexuals act like they want to date you, when they’re really planning to leave you for a man. That is something totally distinct from being in a consensual poly relationship with both men and women.
Is there a word that describes guys like me who are only interested in lesbians? It’s tough because I am doomed to a life of frustration and failure.
On this post? Yeah, there’s a word…. irrelevant.
I logged in just to +1 you. Fantastic.
I’ve always found a lot of biphobia puzzling, like how is it ‘greedy’ to have the ability to find people of more than one gender sexuality &/or romantically attractive (whether you date monogamously or are polyamorous, like either way, how does the gender of your potential lovers/lover really matter)?
Like that’s it, that’s what we’re talking about. Just the ability to find a certain range of people attractive. (The hair colour analogy is a good one!).
Others have addressed my other thoughts much better than i would, the inherent sexism about fearing a woman will leave you for a man, being chastised on whether your romantic and sexual attractions line up or not, policing women for enjoying sex with a penis present, how it is both easier and harder to date men even if you have the choice etc.
I wonder if it would be helpful to talk more about the fact people’s sexual and romantic orientation can differ. A lot of lesbians who feel burned perhaps slept with a woman, who like the aforementioned Gaga, enjoy sex with women, but are only romantically attracted to men. If we don’t assume romantic and sexual attraction go hand in hand, we could ASK and make sure we’re getting involved at the kind of level we are most interested in?
I have followed Arielle on YT for many years and this is the first time I stepped back and thought wtf does that make me,, Dog shit? I also stopped watching her Girlfriends vlog as it was just mundane and used to hype up her views which equals money in the Google world. I am a long time post op transwomen who today just sees herself as a girl,, nothing more. While I have slept with men I prefer the gentle knowing touch of a woman over a man and always said I was bisexual with stronger leanings for women on the sexuality continum. So today I find myself torn to say yeah I’m lesbian but what about where I fit on the continum. I am attracted to many things in my life in this continum manner. Kinda why I choose one meal over another at a restaurant when I find both rather appealing. Bisexual or lesbain what does it matter when you find that someone totally cativates your mind and attention. Thanx for jumpimg on this Reise.
Didn’t watch the video, but read the comments. I have to disagree with everyone who says that being left for a man is exactly the same as being left for a woman. And furthermore, I am not into folks shaming lesbians for being “insecure” no more than I am into lesbians shaming bi women for liking men. I think there’s a lot of insensitivity going on here that needs to be addressed.
I’ve dated women who didn’t want to be in a same-sex relationship, and white people who couldn’t handle being in an interracial relationship with a black person. And you know what…It’s a special kind of pain that is different than breaking up with a person who no longer wants you anymore. It’s extra painful, not because it’s “worse” in any way, but because that person had the option to step out of the marginalized class at any time, and they used it when things “got too rough”.
Lesbians that prefer to date other lesbians are no more different than black people who stick with black people, or other POCs. It’s a solidarity thing- that knowing that when things get rough, you both can weather the storm. They may be right or wrong in thinking this, but that is probably the mindset they are working from.
I wanted to comment on the being left “for a man” or finding out the partner after you is of a different gender/sex but this place is very…much like going to Smith which is cool, but yeah I didn’t bring it up because it didn’t feel right.
But since you said something….
The whole being “left by someone who is more privileged,” is real and I do think it is disingenuous to claim otherwise.
Real talk: I figured being left for a man stings but I personally never felt that emotional sting COMPARED to when my straight cousins are left by their boyfriends to date women who are non-black women of color or white women because of assumed anti-black woman sentiment that you know exists (and if you don’t well get a clue). What does this say about me about them? Well it says I’m am more sensitive to the racial sexism my cousins, other black women and I have to experience when it comes to dating. Sure when I hear my cousins being dumped in order to date a white girl, I’ll admit my first reaction is a side-eye, “oh this again” but he really could like her not because of the girl’s whiteness, but it hard to get to that conclusion after years of social conditioning of “why would anyone love/like/fuck a black woman.”
I’m out to my cousins and they think I’m lucky to be gay because I don’t have to deal with *that* issue, oh to disappoint them. I guess you can say I’m not worried about a girl being bisexual, I DON’T WANT HER TO BE RACIST!
So Soulgirl you mention solidarity which is all too true when dealing with relationships but I would like to know of what you think about being the whole “being left for a man” vs. “being left for a white girl” which is a popular narrative (Waiting to Exhale, Jungle Fever etc.) in the dating woes of black women? For me that is how I was able to “get”” it. It’s still flawed because it’s not like black women stop dating or avoiding black men (some do) but the *sting* is comparable right?
Oh it’s definitely comparable, Bra. Which is why I find it profoundly problematic when people say that being left for a man is somehow exactly the same as being left for another woman. While it’s true that both outcomes sum up to your ex not wanting you anymore, there is something to be said about what certain relationship dynamics symbolize.
Same sex relationships and black women have the same thing in common- they are both seen in the eyes of society as the “inferior option”. Even if *you* have not internalized that message yourself, it doesn’t mean that it won’t hurt when your partner leaves out of a belief that your otherness, or lack of desirability (and their otherness.lack of desirability by association) was a hindrance to their lives. Um…yeah it’s gonna smart!
Now are all women who leave their partners for men (or black men who leave their girlfriends for white women) doing it because they desired a more privileged life? Of course not. Relationships don’t last forever, and sometimes the next partner one meets happens to be either of the opposite sex, or a different race. That’s just a part of life.
However, to pretend that *all* of these breakups are no different than run-of-the-mill splits…and that anyone who mentions the symbolism of these particular relationship dynamics are being insecure or bigoted, is the equivalent to an ostrich sticking its head in the sand.
Yep. I read your post, and I’m agreeing with you on that point.
But you then take that and use it to defend the arguments people have made here that somehow the fact that it could hurt extra to be left for a man and someone bi might leave you for a man is something that can be reasonably held against bisexuals with out that being a bigoted stance.
If a particular bisexual happens to have left you for a man and it particularly hurt I’m not going to tell you she should still be your bff.
But I’m willing to bet that she will not be the only ex ever to (have) dump(ed) you in a particularly shitty way.
And I’m willing to bet that Lady Gaga never left you for a man.
And I know that it’s impossible for “bisexuals” as a class of people ever to have dumped you in a shitty way.
I don’t think anyone is taking “it particularly hurts to be a black woman dumped for a white woman” and concluding that “black women should distrust and not date black men since they could always leave you for someone white and if you disagree you just have your head in the sand.”
Oh. And also no one here is saying, “Hi PoC, I know you feel like there is something racist going on, but really I have a perfectly good reason for what I’m saying and you’re just the equivalent to an ostrich sticking its head in the sand.”
Although that is the kind of thing that racists say all the time when they get called out on their racism.
People leave each other for so many reasons. There’s a big difference between your gf leaves you for a man because she wants a man not a woman v.s. your gf leaves you for someone who happens to be a man v.s. your gf leaves you then sometime later starts seeing a man.
While I’m sure that first one happens sometimes I’m equally sure that lesbians (like all humans) leave each other because of other forms of privilege all the time. Someone wealthier/more educated/White/able bodied/cis/younger etc.
There is nothing special about bisexuals that makes them more likely/able to leave you on account of your lack of privilege unless maybe you are privileged enough that being female and queer are the only ways you lack privilege.
Being left hurts and being left on account of what rather than who you are hurts extra.
That does not change the fact that shunning and shaming bi women on account of what and not who they are is biphobic.
“People leave each other for so many reasons. There’s a big difference between your gf leaves you for a man because she wants a man not a woman v.s. your gf leaves you for someone who happens to be a man v.s. your gf leaves you then sometime later starts seeing a man.”
Did you even *read* my secondary post? I already noted this. -_-
thank you thank you thank you thank you, leigh! YES!
I think there is a massive difference between “I can’t be with a girl so I’m going to date this guy instead” and “there was something broken in our relationship, and I have found a better partner in someone who is a guy”. And the latter is something that is inherent in a bisexual identity – the ability to find relationships with multiple genders. To say that it hurts to be dumped for a guy > dumped for another girl is basically saying that a bisexual woman is not ALLOWED to be bisexual after dating you because you’re judging her for, you know, being able to love a gender that is not yours.
Um…I suggest you re-read my post a few times because that is not what I said. at. all.
So true. Excellently said. <3
Heard it.
Until I hit thirty, the ‘bi-thing’ didn’t really cause me any hassle. In retrospect, I think this was probably because everyone was expecting me to make a choice at some point.
Since my childhood crushes, I was always attracted to lovely people. The sexual attraction doesn’t come till later for me and it’s the same now.
Past-30 and everyone thinks I’ve made a choice (my partner is female). The point is though, I’ve chosen her, not ‘women’. And not because she’s a woman, but because she is marvelous.
By the way, some of us don’t like ‘bi’. I don’t need two of anything. Don’t confuse bi with poly!
“The point is though, I’ve chosen her, not ‘women’. And not because she’s a woman, but because she is marvelous.”
EXACTLY. <3
As someone who used to identify as bi, and now identifies as gay, I have a lot of Feelings about this issue.
When I identified as bi, I felt a lot of hostility from the lesbian/gay community. And whenever I criticise transphobia and biphobia in this community, I automatically get labelled ‘bisexual’ by my detractors (in one instance having it heavily implied that my opinions were just informed by the men I was apparently sleeping with. Guess I need to tell my girlfriend something?)
Now that I identify as gay, I feel even more aware of that hostility, in a way, particularly in the places where radical feminism and lesbianism intersect (esp tumblr). It feels like a lot of lesbians need to remember that your own gayness and your own female-ness does not depend on invalidating/insulting other people’s sexualities and gender identities.
(I also hate that, as a lesbian who previously identified as bisexual, I’m now fodder for that ‘bisexuality is just one foot out of the closet’ stereotype. I wasn’t one foot out of the closet, I just thought I liked men! It turned out I didn’t!)
I’ve typed, deleted, re-typed, and re-deleted my comment about a thousand times already. I consider myself a pretty articulate young lady, but there are no words to describe how disgusted I am with this video. I typically love Arielle’s content but this felt like a deliberate attempt to upset a lot of people. I became especially displeased after reading some of the comments left by younger people who said this video made them feel worthless. Once upon a time, I was a wee lesbian who felt the exact same way these young people are feeling right now. Let me tell you this, it is an extremely harsh place to be. I just pray these kids don’t do the same stupid crap I did. *Shutters*
We all have our own personal preferences when it comes to a partner. Your reasons are your own and even though I may not entirely agree with them I will try to be respectful. But there always has to be someone who pulls shit like this and boom, my jackass button has been pushed. These woman are truly pathetic and I hope this video comes back to haunt them.
Sadness is what I feel.
Discriminees become discriminators.
Unbelievable.
Okay, can we just talk about the fact that “heterosexual privilege” is not actually a thing for bisexuals? Because we’re not heterosexual. We’re bisexual. It has it’s own privileges and problems. It’s not half-and-half. We’re not part homosexual and part heterosexual. We’re not split in two. We’re not hybrids. We’re bisexuals. So could we please maybe stop throwing around this “heterosexual privilege for bisexuals” idea? Because I’m bisexual if I’m in a relationship with a girl, a guy, or anyone else. My sexuality doesn’t change depending on who I’m dating.
Sorry, that was a side rant, I guess. But really.
That said, in response to this whole video and everything: I feel rather sick. Why the hell is it so hard to understand that being true to yourself is more important to most of us than what is “easy”? Furthermore, “easy” is subjective. And for crap’s sake, SOME PEOPLE JUST NEED TO GET OVER THE IDEA THAT BISEXUALS ARE CONFUSED ALREADY.
Anyway. Rant over.
Amen!
It’s not a rainbow anymore you guys.
there has never been a rainbow. it has always been a case of shadow accounting to create numbers.
and solidarity is for class-and-race appropriate in-crowds everywhere
and weathering the storms is something one does ultimately alone – while community is hardly more than a pool of sycophants one can choose to draw upon from the position of money, power and privilege.
And you can bet your mum’s life on the folks here and now trash talking bi women melting if say Megan Fox showed as little as passing interest. :P
This especially infuriates me because my ex-girlfriend used my prior experiences dating men as a weapon. She accused me of being attracted to men, which doesn’t even make sense, because I am totally fine being attracted to men and also women, and don’t understand why she thought I would be ashamed of that. She also was constantly paranoid that I was just with her until a suitable man came along and was convinced I was flirting with men behind her back. A male ex texted me the word “Hi” out of the blue one day and she had a complete meltdown.
So yeah, I really hope most lesbians don’t share her views.
Oh yea, purity of the pack, dear bioautomatons. isn’t it great and important? *rolls eyes*
it is really the only thing i am able to say on the matter.
Yeah, this angered me A LOT. I saw it when I was just coming out and it made me terrified to actually approach any lesbians in fear that they would actually think all of this stuff. I’m so sick of the bisexual stereotypes!
I love Arielle, but this video pissed me off. Before I came out as a lesbian, like many other lesbians, I identified as bisexual. She missed the mark with this video.
This makes me so sad, not because a few lesbians said hateful and ignorant things, but because I’ve heard all of this before. This is all too real. I was afraid to come out as bi because of all the stereotypes I already knew. When I come out toj guys the response tends to be “that’s so hot” and with girls it’s “ohh… have you ever even dated a girl or just drunk make-out?” Why must we be so hostile to each other!!!
When I came out to my mom she said, “we’ll see where that goes.” Thankfully, after talking with her about it months later I discovered that she thought that was a perfectly acceptable response and it turned out she didn’t even know what bisexuality meant. Her questions included, “will you ever be in a monogamous relationship?” “do you have to date girls and guys sequentially or at the same time?” “well you’ll eventually choose, right?” “but when you’re with a girl you’re gay and when you’re with a guy you’re straight, right?” I came to realize through this really honest and respectful conversation that there simply isn’t enough honest conversation about bisexuality or general public visibility for those of us who identify as pan/bi.
The sad reality is that most people are uncomfortable with ambiguity and gray areas. We’re all steeped in a society that forces us to choose between a variety of different binaries, and for those of us who live in that gray area it’s really hard to be understood. It’s been such a long and difficult process of accepting my own place in the gray area – years of trying to “decide” who I am more attracted to, every day waking up wondering who I was going to choose that day. It’s been exhausting. I’m finally in a place where I am completely happy and comfortable with being in the in-between. Now, a challenge for all of us – let’s create a more solid pan/bi community, keep coming out and being vocal, and do our part to educate those we know and love about what it really means to be bisexual/pansexual. Chances are a lot of people don’t even get it.
For everyone: whether it’s about love or sex, it really just comes down to the person. Why are we still caught up in gender anyway?
straight men: don’t see your bisexuality as a threat whatsoever, in fact, often think “it’s fine” or even “awesome” for you to have had sex with ladies, because they think they are what every woman truly desires
lesbians: fucking terrfied that men are the ultimate sexual ideal for a bisexual lady so will never date you
like hi guys patriarchy at work!
Probably no one will see my comment but eh, what the hell.
I remember when this video came out two years ago. I remember crying to myself to sleep, wondering how any woman could ever love me because I’m bi, and how terrible I felt for weeks afterward.
I biggest regret now was not being a part of Autostraddle when this video came out. This is probably the most bi-positive comment chain I’ve ever read, and even today, with me being in a long term relationship with a woman and all, this was something I so badly needed to read. Seeing lesbian, bi, pan, & queer women all band together and say how horrific this video is, how it doesn’t reflect their views at all, and how they love bi women warmed my heart and shows me that this website is a safe place for girls like me.
Thanks Autostraddle, keep being bi friendly and awesome <3
aww, man. they are so misguided in their thoughts on we bisexuals. this video made me rage.