Interview With My Ex: MR

Welcome to the Interview With An Ex series, in which Autostraddle writers get back in touch with their exes to ask them Five Simple Questions:

1. How long did we date?
2. Why did we break up?
3. What did you learn from our relationship?
4. What do you miss most about me?
5. Would you invite me to your wedding (why/why not)?

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I first met MR when I was twenty years old. Our then-partners were friends, despite us going to different schools in different states (gay Asian circles are small, I guess). Honestly, there’s nothing memorable about the night we first met. I remember it being warm and I have a vague memory of ordering delivery boba, but beyond that, nothing. I didn’t really think about them much – or at all, really – until we discovered we were about to be coworkers.

Fast-forward two years. We did the New York Times “36 Questions to Fall In Love To” in the basement ramen shop of a Chicago barbecue spot (the questions worked), and spent the next several weeks of orientation trying not to kiss after-hours (we were coworkers with a budding friendship!) before eventually giving up and letting nature do its thing.

We were inseparable for the rest of the year, and most of the next. We traveled a ton, met each other’s families, and spent hours on the phone when we weren’t in the same place. We even got matching toothbrushes and made a marriage pact which, when you’re dating, is maybe just… talking about the future? We also went to couples therapy, and it was really good! Maybe the only reason we were able to transition to friendship so quickly after the breakup.

We’re now exes – you’ll hear about our breakup soon – but we’re also still Very Much in each other’s lives. We split an oyster CSA share, we’re planning a hike upstate next month (I love the Hudson Valley!), and uh, we did this interview in person and over frozen cocktails. Anyway, I am well aware of how tropey it is to be gay and this close to an ex. Sorry!!!!!

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Ashni: Okay, okay! How long did we date?

MR: See, that’s the hardest one. That’s probably the toughest of the five. It really depends on the definition of dating.

Ashni: Oh my God.

MR: We dated for a number of weeks or months. I would say… My body wants to say three months. We were officially partnered for a very short period of time.

MR: Did you ever go to church with me?

Ashni: I did, I went to church with you.

MR: Yeah, I feel like that’s it right there. If you endured that, we dated. Okay, so when did you come and visit?

Ashni: Well, that was December. But I met you like twelve months before that.

MR: And we were messing around from the beginning.

Ashni: Well, we spent a good three weeks pretty platonic. Maybe even five!

MR: Yeah, you’re right! I mean, we made out. Okay so when did we like, break up? Let’s work backwards.

Ashni: We broke up in August 2019.

MR: 2019, really? Oh, that makes sense. ‘Cause 2020 was the pandemic. It just sounds like it was so long ago. So we officially broke up in August of 2019. Because of –

Ashni: That’s the next question! I thought we were working backwards!

MR: Okay, sorry! I’m getting sidetracked. So then we dated for a year and a half by a loose definition.

Ashni: Was it good? Did you like it?

MR: Yeah, it was great. I really liked it.

Ashni: I really liked it too.

MR: It was really nice. It was very dramatic. We were very young. We didn’t know what we wanted!

Ashni: I was 22!

MR: And we were selfish. We wanted it all.

Ashni: Today you texted me, “You can’t have it all, Ashni.”

MR: You don’t want me to get into this. You bailed on me! And so I made other plans! Okay, so we loosely dated for about a year and a half, which was made up of a couple of phases. One of which was mostly hooking up and then having dramatic arguments in like the edges of the world. And then the last six months we were navigating multiple relationships. We were trying to fit what we had in a way that made everyone feel comfortable, and ultimately, that failed.

Ashni: It did fail!! So that brings us to our next question. Why did we break up?

MR: We broke up because we – I would say specifically I – had a really hard time. You caught me in that year of “no dating”, so I had all these arbitrary stupid rules, like “I’m only going to be with myself” and “I’m going to be a bit slutty”.

Ashni: Which is why you slept over at my place so many times.

MR: Because obviously I was attached to you. But because of that – because of these arbitrary lines that I had drawn, we were not exclusive in any way and you were actively on the apps. And I was messing around with another person! In the time that it would have made sense for us to date in a healthy way, I was drawing arbitrary lines in the sand.

Ashni: Mm.

MR: And then when we actually started dating, we had these really complicated factors of our partners. And we ultimately were trying polyamory with people who are monogamous.

Ashni: I didn’t read the book! (I am reading the book now.)

MR: And we failed at the multiple relationship thing. But… I would say we also succeeded because we’re here now! We are still in each others’ lives. And we did all that work with our couples therapist to try out dating in a way that wouldn’t ruin us. And dating failed, but we didn’t fail. Does that seem like a satisfactory answer? Do you agree with that?

Ashni: I’m not judging the quality of your answers! But I think we both do this thing where we assume an unfair amount of guilt – like we blame ourselves a little too much. But no, I think we broke up because I had a really hard time asking for what I wanted. And it got hard and I didn’t know how to fight for this. And I did the easy thing.

MR: Yeah, I think we definitely opted into the easier thing, which was not dating, not being partners.

Ashni: Well, I think the type of partnership that we had was also the easier thing. Like, I think it was a way for us to just make sure we stayed in each other’s lives in a way that our partners were comfy with.

MR: We haven’t even described what that looked like. We were allowed to go on dates and love on each other and have intimate times together, without the physical bits.

Ashni: It’s weird that not having sex led to our downfall. Sorry, that’s not what I mean.

MR: Wow.

Ashni: That’s not what I meant to say! It’s interesting that around the time we stopped having sex, we started this partnership. I don’t know where I’m going with this.

MR: I mean, I think you have a point. I think that our natural state of interaction included sex. And we intentionally removed that and then, yeah, I had a hard time with that, but ultimately, I think it was healthy.

Ashni: I think it was the right choice, the right time. I don’t know how we would have done the pandemic.

MR: Yeah, we would not have done the pandemic. That would have been our downfall, if not ourselves. Which is totally fine.

Ashni: We made it through! You would bike up.

MR: I would bike up. I would bike 20 minutes to come –

Ashni: See me. It was really nice! We would get oysters and shuck them in the park and split a bottle of wine.

MR: Really cute. Sounds like a date.

Ashni: What did you learn from our relationship?

MR: Oh, my God. So many things. I learned so many things.

Ashni: Really? What did you learn?

MR: Well, it was my first, like, real attempt at polyamory. So I had a lot of lessons from there. Like how hard it is to find a balance that fits everyone’s comfort levels. But how rewarding it can be when it happens. And then I learned a lot about respecting boundaries? That’s a more serious one. And then I learned about… mmm…I don’t know, like, so much of it was wrapped up in me learning how to Adult in New York. Do any of those lessons make sense for you? Do you relate? Thoughts for me?

Ashni: Honestly, I think I learned not to put my all into a person who wasn’t ready to date in the way that I wanted. I learned that the trip from Midtown to Astoria is just as fast on the train as it is in a Lyft.

MR: It’s four stops on the N!

Ashni: You showed me around Astoria a lot and I really appreciate that. I don’t know that I would have seen as much of Queens if you –

MR: If you hadn’t dated someone in Queens?

Ashni: Yeah, you were the only reason I was ever in Queens. I learned to have more respect for faith.

MR: I was still struggling with that stuff.

Ashni: I know, I’m sorry. I’m the worst person to be with when you’re struggling with faith things. I learned a lot about cocktails and drinking. We spent so much of that first year in bars. It was very boozy.

MR: It was very boozy. It was very fancy. We ate a lot of food. We just like – I was just an absolute hedonist when I moved to New York.

Ashni: You just changed it from “we” to “I” – but I agree. I was a hedonist.

MR: [laughing] I only want to speak for myself!

Ashni: I appreciate that. I, too, was a hedonist. I think we still are.

MR: Cheers to that.

Ashni: I’m not clammy, did you feel that?

MR: That was great. Let’s feel it again.

Ashni: You’re clammy!

MR: No I am not.

Ashni: You’re a little damper than I am.

MR: You’re right. I am. I’m a little hot.

Ashni: What do you miss most about me?

MR: I don’t really miss you.

Ashni: [aghast]

MR: I’m around you all the time.

Ashni: Yeah, I think we’ve seen each other, what –

MR: Six times in the last eight days.

Ashni: Really?

MR: I made that up, but something around there. Do you miss me?

Ashni: I guess not anymore! Not after your answer! Damn.

MR: Well, I just feel like there are so many things that we kind of do that I want to do fully. Like, I wanna fully just… go on an adventure with you, like travel again and not be held back. I think that the way that we explored the city together was really fun.

Ashni: I loved exploring the city with you. I love going on little adventures with you.

MR: I know! You’re such a good adventurer!

Ashni: So are you!

MR: I also miss having sleepovers with you and making full 24 hour plans. Like we were just so good at that. We would spend all this time together. We don’t want to do that anymore. It’s just short chunks.

Ashni: Do you want to spend a whole day together? I mean, not like 24 hours but like 10 AM to midnight.

MR: You wouldn’t even wake up for me. You wouldn’t even.

Ashni: I said 10am!!

MR: But yeah, like the stuff I love about your personality and the way you impact my life – I still feel like I have those things. So I don’t miss those things. I definitely just miss the lingering and the traveling and the adventuring.

Ashni: I don’t see you as frequently as I’d like. I think this week was an exception, but in general, I feel like I see you once or twice a week and I’d like to see you more. I feel like Length of Hang is always difficult.

MR: I love being neighbors with you. That’s something I specifically don’t miss about back then that we have now. I love it. I love that we can have a local, extremely fun adventure.

MR: But, yeah, for the most part I feel very fortunate having you in my life in such a big way. So being able to not just have fun with you but also lean on you and be supported by you and support you. I think that’s nice.

Ashni: I think that is really nice.

MR: It’s not a superficial friendship. It’s still a very deep friendship. So, yeah – I think we would miss fewer things outside of that realm than the normal ex. Don’t you think we have more access to the things that we would miss otherwise?

Ashni: It wouldn’t have happened if it weren’t for you. You insisted that if we broke up, we had to stay friends. You were, like, if we date I can’t lose you.

MR: We were going into it with the odds against us. So I just didn’t feel comfortable, like, just going for it.

MR: I had this theory that you were talking a lot more shit about me than I was about you. This needs to be on the record. You had a Finsta! Where you would post very intimate details about our relationship to your 45 closest friends.

Ashni: It was seven people.

MR: I was imagining a tight 50.

Ashni: I have, like, ten friends.

MR: Okay, what’s the next question?

Ashni: It’s the last one!

MR: [gasps] We did so good.

Ashni: Would you invite me to your wedding?

MR: Yeah, absolutely. I think that this is the easiest one because you’re a friend! Because everyone in my life knows where we stand. There wouldn’t be any explanation. What about you?

Ashni: Absolutely. You came to my birthday. I mean, you’ve been at every birthday. Yeah, I would absolutely invite you to my wedding. Well, that’s it. That’s the interview.

MR: We did it! Go us!

Ashni: Is there anything you wanna say in closing?

MR: [pauses] No, no.

Ashni: What were you gonna say?

MR: I thought it would come to me.

Ashni: Okay, well, thanks. Thanks for your time!

MR: Thanks for doing this. I had a lot of fun.

Interview With My Ex: Courtney

It’s back! Welcome to the Interview With An Ex series, in which Autostraddle writers get back in touch with their exes to ask them Five Simple Questions:

1. How long did we date?
2. Why did we break up?
3. What did you learn from our relationship?
4. What do you miss most about me?
5. Would you invite me to your wedding (why/why not)?

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I met Courtney at my first ever A-Camp, which I attended my junior year of college. I had just started coming out as bi to my friends, mostly to explain why I had been bawling my eyes out over my “best friend” who I shared a bed with every night but who always had a boyfriend. Also though, after three years at my college in a sorority, I felt extremely self-conscious trying to break into the queer scene at my school, like everyone would think I was faking or something? Being twenty-one is so embarrassing.

Anyway, enter Courtney. Courtney had been in the same cabin as me, The Runaways, at her first camp. She seemed older than me and cooler than me, and she loved musicals. On the last day of camp, we spent the entire day together and it took until she put her hand on my knee at dinner for me to know she was flirting with me. We kissed at the A-Camp dance and I truly felt like I had arrived. Kissing a cutie at the queer dance! Who did I think I was!

From there, I went back to college and to the ever-persistent heartbreak that graduated two weeks later. It was, of course, an incredibly dramatic time, but Courtney and I continued to date long distance, due to a couple trips that she had planned that would take her through the Bay Area and near enough to me to figure out ways to see each other. Regrettably, I simply could not stop being in love with my college person (and couldn’t for…um…three whole more years after that, actually), and so eventually, being 22 and horrible at confrontation and breakups, I sort of started to pull away until eventually breaking up with her after she had left.

Now we are friends who live on opposite coasts, meaning we mostly respond to each other’s Insta stories. Courtney was nice enough to take a break during a truly hellish work week and answer my questions slash talk about why we’re the best exes of all time (we occasionally go to queer parties together and have a blast, namely). Hilariously, this series was why I subscribed to A+ way back around the time Courtney and I met! And now I get to do one! Huge for baby me.

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Analyssa: I texted you these questions and now I don’t have them, so give me one second.

Courtney: I’m really excited about my answers already, so.

Analyssa: I think this is going to be fun, as I told my editors. I was like, “we met at A Camp, I was a jerk in the break up, I think it will be very fun and silly. Like I think it will be super easy.” And they were like “great”.

[Both laugh.]

Analyssa: So! The first question is, how long did we date?

Courtney: I had to think about this because the timeline is like, confusing to me, but I think it was only, it was like three months.

Analyssa: I think that’s right.

Courtney: It felt longer, but I think it was three or four months.

Analyssa: I think I would call it, yeah, three or four. It’s so crazy because I actually feel…in my memory it’s like, way shorter, but it was like through the summer.

Courtney: Yeah, yeah through most of the summer. Also it was 2015, which feels crazy. That was seven years ago.

Analyssa: That is horrendous. I’m going to tell you a weird thing that’s happening in my life right now which is that I’m dating my college ex-boyfriend. Um –

Courtney: Uh…fuck, what’s his name? Uh –

Analyssa: Louis.

Courtney: Yes, Louis! I remember him.

Analyssa: I was like, “I know that you will know who this is.”

Courtney: Yes! I remember you dated him before and you dated him after me.

Analyssa: Yep! That’s a classic –

Courtney: Uh-huh.

Analyssa: That’s a classic Analyssa move actually. Except I think that’s a classic Old Analyssa move. But um, the reason I bring it up is because I was thinking like “we started dating – he and I started dating seriously in 2015, and I was like, that is so long ago.” That’s seven years ago now. Like, it feels, I just feel 100 years old.

Courtney: Yeah, my early twenties feel like they were a hundred years ago. So it feels, also weird that it was seven.

Analyssa: For some reason it feels like, it’s kind of the thing where you know how 1980 feels like it should be twenty years ago but it’s now 40 years ago instead?

Courtney: Yeah.

Analyssa: I have that with like, college and my early twenties. I’m like, that should all be 5 years ago.

Courtney: Yeah, it should always be five years ago, and that’s it.

Analyssa: And it’s not five years ago anymore, actually.

[Both laugh.]

Courtney: Turns out.

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Analyssa: Okay, glad we’re in agreement on how long. Uh, why did we break up?

Courtney: I think the short answer is you broke up with me, over text, uh, because you had other stuff going on. I won’t speak for your experience. But I think the longer answer is that both of us were in like, really transitional places at the time. Like we were both 22, you were nearing the end of college and you had also just come out and this was a first queer relationship. And I was in the middle of getting over one heartbreak and also breaking somebody else’s heart. And also moving to Portland in two months, and like, moving out of my parent’s house for the first time. So I feel like we were both in like, very weird places and we were…good for each other in the moment but like, also going through so many other things that our relationship was almost a crutch for it? If that makes sense?

Analyssa: Totally, I agree. This is all very um, adult and mature analysis from you.

Courtney: Well, I mean, if you recall, I wrote a very dramatic essay like two years after, that I think I shared with you about how like, our relationship was very important to me in that time because it was such an important time, but it also…I feel like this is actually going to answer the next question like what did I…was it “what did I gain from the relationship?”

Analyssa: Learn. What did you learn?

Courtney: Ah, what did I learn. Yes. A lot of our relationship ultimately ending, I couldn’t figure out why I was so hurt. Because I knew I liked you but like, we had only dated a few months. I was surprised by the breakup but I was like, very hurt by it. But in that, learned that ultimately I had taken a bunch of the stuff I had been feeling about the other folks I had been having feelings for and it all kinda got placed on you almost. Because I didn’t take any time to process those things, you and I just immediately jumped into doing that right after A-Camp. And I just didn’t give myself any time to process beign heartbroken and breaking someone who I cared about’s heart. So yeah, I feel like I learned my own way of navigating that kind of pain, particularly hurting someone else because I had not experienced that before.

Analyssa: Yeah, I think it’s so crazy to think about yes, how long ago that was but also how much both of us were going through at that particular A-Camp. Like to me, that A-Camp was like, yeah I’m trying to get over this insane thing that keeps breaking my heart at college that I had come out about and like, trying to find a community. I don’t know it just felt…and I was like, the youngest person in my Runaways cabin too, which was weird for me, I remember.

Courtney: Yeah.

Analyssa: It’s funny to think about that we actually are the same age. Because in my head, at camp, you were like three years older than me. Do you know what I mean?

Courtney: [laughs]

Analyssa: Like you had it so much more together, and like, I even remember talking to you about the things that were going on in your life and being like “God, Courtney has all this queer drama. She’s like, in her life and I’m not even there yet.” You know? Like “I’m just this little nothing.” I don’t know. It’s such a funny thing to think about now because we were both kind of lost and like, adrift and really liked each other and had a bunch of other stuff going on.

Courtney: Yeah, and it’s funny to hear that too, because I do not feel like that was the case at all. When I talk about being a mess in my early twenties, I specify about being 22. Like, 22 was a messy age. And at that particular time, I felt super lost. I was still living with my parents, I had just quit a job and was working as a barista and had my own feelings about not being “professional enough.” And even the “queer drama,” I didn’t feel like I really had a huge community. I just happened to have a lot of queer drama.

We both laugh

Analyssa: Yes, but you did have a really cool recording of yourself in Legally Blonde: The Musical. That was really big. For me.

Courtney: [laughs] I forgot about showing you that!! Oh no. You’re like one of maybe ten people total who have ever seen that.

Analyssa: Oh my god, that’s – that’s actually an honor to hear. I did not know that.

Courtney: Yeah I think it was only because you were like, I love this musical and then you looked at my Facebook and saw a picture of me in it. And I was like “oh this girl I have a crush on thinks this is cool, let me show it to her.”

Analyssa: Isn’t it funny how much Facebook used to play a role in flirting? At least for me it did, a lot of stuff happened on Facebook.

Courtney: Yeah. It was the resource for everything.

Analyssa: And now it simply doesn’t happen there anymore.

Courtney: Not at all. It’s Instagram.

Analyssa: Yeah, very much. But Instragram doesn’t have the fun sort of thing of, Facebook lurking someone’s page back a few months. Do you know what I mean? It’s not as…

Courtney: It’s different.

Analyssa: Yeah, the silliness of some of the Facebook stuff, I miss. Instagram is a little bit like “I’m seriously posting here, or I seriously am pursuing you, I have a crush and will DM you” I feel? As opposed to like “haha I’m gonna comment on something silly from your past, just so you’ll notice me!” Like that kind of stuff.

Courtney: Yeah, you’re right. Facebook was a very different time.

Analyssa: Agreed. Okay, what do you miss most about me?

Courtney: I think I miss us being in the same place more often. Because we don’t get a chance to hang out very much as friends, and in the times we have I’ve always had a delightful time with you. And I’m really happy with what our friendship has become, especially after a relationship that I think hurt me initially. So yeah, I think I just miss hanging out with you and getting to be more consistent friends. Like we check in via text sometimes and all that, but yeah. Hangin’ out in real life. Miss that.

Analyssa: I do too, I think that’s something that was like, even from when we met at A-Camp. I remember we spent that one whole day at camp together and I did not— I actually don’t know if you were hitting on me the whole day – but I did not understand at all—

Courtney: I was.

Analyssa: Laughs. I was just like “oh my god, we’re hitting it off, we’re such good pals.” And then at some point I was like “Oh I want to kiss. Also.”

Courtney: And then, we kissed.

Analyssa: And then we sure did kiss.

Courtney: And then there was kissing.

Analyssa: And that was my first –

Courtney: I feel like you should have…I mean, I know maybe it’s not as easy to pick up on flirting, I get that. But I mean I literally got a matching scissoring facepainting with you, which I feel like should have been an indication.

Analyssa: That is true. I was looking back at all the A-Camp and Pride photos that we did, and I was like “oh, no, we were very…” it was very obvious actually. I was just dumb.

Courtney: It was very gay.

Analyssa: It was very obvious and very gay. I think I just…literally the only gay thing that had happened in my life to date when we met was this person at college who would make out with me when we were drunk and who had gone abroad and would write me like, letters that were basically love letters but we didn’t talk about it. You know? So I wasn’t…I didn’t understand what real flirting looked like.

Courtney: Totally understandable. I think it was also processing like, the things I was going through. Because both the person I was heartbroken over and the person whose heart I had broken were both at camp as well. A-Camp!

Analyssa: Yeah, that is what A-Camp is like. And I was at camp to try to like, escape my college person for a weekend. I was like, I have to get out of here. I just, I can’t do it. So I don’t know it was just…I think of that A-Camp so fondly. It was the first time I was around that many queer people, which is true for a lot of people. I just think it was like, a very formative experience for me, in a lot of ways.

Courtney: Yeah, I totally get it! Your first camp was my second camp and I had had a very similar experience the first year. Which I think also is something we maybe bonded over initially, that like experiencing that queer community for the first time is so overwhelming but it’s such a unique feeling, to be around that many queer people and only queer people, for five whole days straight.

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Analyssa: Big plug for A-Camp, is what this interview is turning into. Okay, the last question is would you invite me to your wedding and why or why not?

Courtney: I thought about this one, a lot. I think if I were having a smaller wedding, or like a more intimate wedding, the answer is no, probably not. Simply because you are my friend, but we are just not that close.

Analyssa: Fair enough.

Courtney: But if I was having a larger wedding, which I anticipate having, basically like a big queer party? I absolutely would invite you.

Analyssa: gasps Oh my gosh, that’s amazing! I am pretty fun at weddings. And I would be so thrilled to be at your wedding, I would be really really happy for you.

Courtney: Oh I know you would be fun. And also, yeah I would like to have you there, it would be fun. And I’ll probably end up having it in like, Joshua Tree or something.

Analyssa: You didn’t ask, but I will say I feel kind of the same way. If I were doing this big celebration, to me that experience and that time and the time we spent together, and as a friend, you’re very important to me.

Courtney: I feel the same.

Analyssa: So if I have a party that accommodates that, then great, that’s what I’d do.

Courtney: Cute! I’m glad we’re on the same page with that. I totally agree though, in that our relationship, however short, was such a big part of a transitional time for both of us that the importance of that relationship informed…the relationship I’m in now and it informed like, how I navigated relationships after. So I’d want you to be a part of that celebration too.

Analyssa: That’s so sweet. I think we did it!

Courtney: We did it! I do hope you use one of those pictures from Gay Asstrology for this.

Analyssa: Ugh, we should have talked about being great exes. I know, that one is really fun.

Courtney: Great exes, 10/10 exes.

Interview With My Ex-Boyfriend (!!): Christopher

Welcome to this spin-off edition of Interviews With My Ex-Girlfriend in which Autostraddle writers get back in touch with their ex-girlfriends to ask them Five Simple Questions. In honor of Bi+ Week, we are mixing things up!

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Christopher and I met our senior year of high school and were a mess at each other for a few months. We were precious repressed 17-year-olds in Dallas-adjacent suburbs (ish) who both grew up to be queer. We made each other mix CDs with The Strokes and The Format on them. We’ve managed to stay friends across time, states, and countries, and I think of our brief, never-official relationship with great fondness. I have always believed that Christopher and I were longing for something we couldn’t name and we found it in each other, in a way.  Christopher shares my penchant for nostalgia and introspection and graciously agreed to speak with me for this series. We talked about being repressed teens who made out in several parks and grew up to be super queer.

Adrian: Ok so we met at The Max, right? Which no longer exists RIP

Christopher: We were there for a local show, I was there with Zach to see a band we had gotten to know because we were also in a band, and I guess you were there for the same band?

Adrian: Criminal Shift! Was the band.

Christopher: Yes! And I was helping Doug with the merch table and we were playing a Steel Train song on a ukelele and you came up and started singing with us.

Adrian: Wow that’s precious. Yes, and I knew Douglas through Marisa who was in your band, so basically the world was shrinking in on itself. Ok so we met and then did we talk on AIM?

Christopher: No, I think we texted, I had a cell phone at that point.

[Reader, I did some follow up research and in fact we mostly talked through Facebook messenger because I had a prepaid cell phone without text messages because it was 2008!]

Adrian: Right, so we just kept talking. And then we hung out!

Christopher: You came over after church and we went to the grocery store on Lover’s Lane and bought a $1 loaf of bread and took it to Curtis Park to feed the ducks.

Adrian: Right, and it was my first date ever! I was a late bloomer in all sorts of ways. Also wow you have an extremely good memory??

Christopher: I remember stuff that’s important to me!

Adrian: Omg wow um ok that’s sweet!!! Anyway so we hung out a few times but we were never like official. Like we watched Eternal Sunshine at your parents one time. Your parents were really nice to me!

Christopher: They love you! Right and then we went and laid in the grass because there were randomly so many stars. Wow that was really romantic! And then there was the time we went to the haunted house with your friends and also we went to Chili’s. And then we went to the park by your house and kissed on a playground structure.

Adrian: They really should make a teen movie about us. Ok so like, this was fall of senior year. At that point, how did you understand yourself?

Christopher: The way I always defined myself from like 13 or 14 when I had an awareness of libido was like, straight but open. I had erotic experiences with guy friends at sleepovers. Which is like, normal for adolescent boys. I always contextualized them as like, discovery-based encounters that were fun and I never felt any shame about them. I did that throughout high school but I never really let myself imagine them romantically. I was like, straight with some bi-curious leanings at that time. All of my dreams were exclusively homosexual. My subconscious was telling me like, this is really what you’re wanting. I was really good at ignoring them or discrediting their validity to myself. When we were meeting I was a straight guy but with compassion for not-straightness.

Adrian: Wow, that resonates so much. In high school I was like very outgoing and had friends in a lot of different groups. I had the experience of wanting to be close to girls but I genuinely liked boys so I figured I was straight. There was no visibility or safety for queer kids at my high school, and it was just like, beyond what I could conceive. I like, wanted to be really good friends with certain girls, and it was not the same as regular friendship, there was longing there. But it was different than I felt about boys too, and I tried to date boys but it never really…worked.

Christopher: Haha yes! My whole high school experience I was desperately in love with and in denial about it with… Zach. And I thought I just really wanted to be really good friends with him and wouldn’t let myself play with the possibility that it could be more than that. It’s one of those open secrets that if I said he’d probably be like ‘obviously.’

Adrian: What made it so hard to come to terms with it? Was it like, your family, or the environment, or just that it’s hard to be a person?

Christopher: Those all probably relate. This is a rich question that I haven’t really processed so I’m glad we’re talking about this! There was nothing violently oppressive in the Park Cities, it’s not like guys who weren’t super macho were getting beat up or anything like that. I never felt like expressing a queer or gender non-conforming personality would make me a target of physical violence. But growing up in Boy Scouts and Cub Scouts, you would say gay or faggot in a derogatory way. I don’t think The people who used those words used it as a way to spew hate on gay people, but it still had the force of the underlying homophobia. There was this understanding that being queer or gay or bi is just not a preferred way of living. I was never very introspective, I was a social butterfly who was always wanting to be around other people as a way to disappear and not have to be my own self. Throughout high school I was a little bit incomplete, a black hole of a person, never doing that much internal examination. I was afraid of what I would uncover, that I would have to come to terms with the fact that I was not straight and queer. For like Zach in particular, I felt like disclosing my feelings would ruin the friendship! I think about the brave few souls who were more forthcoming and out and loud and more certain in themselves,  and like within our community, those kids didn’t have a tremendously hard time, but they weren’t seen as completely part of the rest of us.

Adrian: Well, and when you’re a teenager being part of the ‘us’ is the most important thing!

Christopher: Right. Well, what about you?

Adrian: I mean, Coppell was kind of a quintessential suburb. It was a horrible place to be different. Like it wasn’t safe and no one cared, that’s how it seemed. Not very many kids were out and those who were, and even those who were seriously suspected of being gay or queer, were bullied. Tons of my friends came out in college but not in high school. It was horrible. We weren’t allowed to have a Gay Straight Alliance or anything like that. I didn’t know anyone who identified as bisexual, it was just outside my frame of reference completely. I owned SO much rainbow shit and was like earnest about being an ally but that was as far as I could go. I wasn’t closeted, I was repressed as fuck, which I think is probably just as harmful in a different way. I wasn’t afraid to stand out or be weird, but that was about what I wore or what I did, not something central to who I was. That wasn’t really conceivable.

Christopher: I remember sitting at the “goth table” sometimes and they were like, outwardly gender non-conforming and some of the girls were bi. So like, the LGBT contingent also coincided with the fringe counterculture rule-breaking crowd. Which makes sense!

Adrian: Wow, I  think a lot of our goths were queer too, I’m thinking about whether that functioned as armor in a way, or marking themselves as different outwardly so no one was surprised.

Christopher: Yeah, or like a disguise.

Adrian: Ok, so, we ended things after a couple months because you were super flaky. You kept breaking plans and the last straw was when we were supposed to watch Rocky Horror Picture Show in my friend Bethanie’s front yard, and I think I was super embarrassed because you were supposed to meet my friends and you stood me up!

Christopher: I can’t remember specific things I missed or reasons I gave for flaking, and the reasons probably weren’t false but they also probably weren’t, like, necessary. They were excuses. I was not confronting the real truth which was that I liked you but I didn’t want to engage in a dating relationship like this. I think that’s probably what was happening. I’m sorry I was a flake 12 years ago!

Adrian: Finally, the apology I’ve been waiting for [a joke]. Ok so but then like, in college you came out pretty much right away, right?

Christopher: Within the first quarter of college I was pretty, pretty, pretty, yeah, pretty out. The summer after high school before college there was a meeting of Stanford students in Dallas, and Alok was there, who was actively out and proud at that point. We became friends and when we met on campus and continued hanging out and through them I met their other friends and started to meet more LGBTQ people and I guess I had more examples and role models, peers, that were braver than I was and more developed in their sense of who they were. That inspired me to confront my feelings and own them with more pride and joy. I think that happened at the same time that I let myself develop feelings for a guy and affirmed for myself that those were feelings I wanted to have. That unlocked something! It was a slow, amorphous development ever since. I remember coming out that winter to all my friends as bi. Now I just like to say I have predilections and tend to be with men. It’s in flux. I don’t like trying to pin myself down when I’m a moving target in a lot of ways.

Adrian: So, I am thinking about when I visited you at Stanford junior year, spring 2012, and I hung out with you at your co-op and we saw Modest Mouse with Alok and it was just like sunshiny and queer and good, and like, I think about that trip and the ways that something felt possible. I was still identifying as straight them but being in a new place with people who didn’t know me, I didn’t have to map myself onto who anyone thought I would be and it set something free

Christopher: Wait really?

Adrian: Yeah, that trip was really important for me. I had broken up with my kinda long-term boyfriend a couple months before and was about to embark on a spree of dating mediocre boys while being in love with a friend and like, I was getting ready to come out to myself! Just in the most chaotic way possible. But being around a bunch of queer people who didn’t know me was really powerful. And I guess I should say that obviously since I was visiting you in another state we had managed to stay friends.

Christopher: Yeah, we started hanging out fairly soon as friends! We would argue about trying not to spend too much on lunch and then go to Half Price Books and drop $40. I think you turned me onto D.H. Lawrence…

Adrian: That’s the gayest thing that’s ever happened

Christopher: …so I bought The Rainbow. Oh that’s too much.

Adrian: There’s nothing subtle about that.

Christopher: It was hidden in plain sight! But yeah the the pressure was off once we weren’t trying to make it work romantically.

Adrian: I couldn’t really stay mad at you. I felt like I needed to know you, there was something very deeply held that drew me to you, it felt like we were supposed to be in each other’s lives. Is that too deep?

Christopher: No, I felt the same! I was eager to know you. There was an inexplicable, ineffable magnetism. What you said resonates.

Adrian: You always really mattered to me! So we’ve managed to see each other every couple years.

Christopher: Right, and I came to visit you in Nicaragua. That trip was really intense and important to me. And we talked there about how we don’t keep in touch frequently but when we do talk, I always feel very grateful. Picking up where we left off seems like a cliché but it’s true.

Adrian: You know, I was never annoyed that you were gay! I was just glad to know you. If it were the 1940s maybe we would have had a lavender marriage. Instead we’ve gotten to have this weird, beautiful long distance friendship for over a decade. It really feels like we grew up together even though we’ve only ever lived in the same place for a year.

Christopher: And in Nicaragua when I was there you were also like at the very beginning of naming your gender and your queer politics were evolving. So like, what happened between the Modest Mouse concert and that trip?

Adrian: So like, 2012 was a mess like I said and I made some questionable decisions. I remember when this girl started dating a girl after we had both been closetedly in love all summer, I was so jealous. I guess the jealousy was a big enough feeling to make me interrogate it. That was also the Halloween I dressed as Bob Dylan and people thought I was a guy and that was thrilling, but I didn’t think about that very hard for several years. But yeah so I dated a bunch of guys and then I came out as queer and bi at a poetry show — of course haha — and then I fell for a girl and then I moved away. In 2015, which was the last year I was living in Managua, two big things happened. I went to A-Camp and was around a ton of trans people for the first time and saw just like ALL these ways to be. And then I went to an LGBTI conference in Costa Rica and was around a ton of trans people again, and people started using -x ending pronouns and terms for me without me asking for that, they just like made the assumption which in this case turned out to be a huge gift. And then a few weeks after that, you visited with Rob and Dana and we went on that completely ridiculous hike up a mountainside that like wasn’t fully cleared? And we talked about being queer adults and all the things we were still figuring out. And it was perfect.

Interview With My “Ex-Girlfriend”: “Jo”

Welcome to Interviews With My Ex-Girlfriend in which Autostraddle writers get back in touch with their ex-girlfriends to ask them Five Simple Questions:

1. How long did we date?
2. Why did we break up?
3. What did you learn from our relationship?
4. What do you miss most about me?
5. Would you invite me to your wedding (why/why not)?

---

Once upon a time, I was just a lesbian who didn’t know she was a lesbian but was lesbian-ing all around the rural Georgia stomping grounds of my youth with an intensity usually reserved for dying black holes. One such experience of lesbian-ing was falling in love with my gal pal from college and hating her boyfriend and acting generally bonkers in every way imaginable. But that was a long time ago and both me and my gal pal have grown up and come out and she even agreed to sit down with me to relive the way we burned up so hard and bright so long ago.

Jo: Hello, Heather Hogan!

Heather: Hello… can I call you by your full name?

Jo: Ha, no. Please do not use my name at all. I don’t need anyone tracking me down via Facebook to yell at me for breaking your heart in 2001.

Heather: No one’s going to yell at you about that. To get people to yell at you, you have to insult their favorite fictional characters. But I can make up a code name for you, and the code name will be… Jo March.

Jo: Fine.

Heather: Fine? I just gave you the greatest compliment.

Jo: I think you gave yourself the greatest compliment.

Heather: Haha, okay okay. So, hello, Jo. Thank you for agreeing to do this interview with an ex-girlfriend with me, despite the fact that you are not technically my ex-girlfriend. So let’s just get right into that. The first question is: How long did we date? But we did not and the reason is that —

Jo: The reason is that you were desperately in love with me and I had a boyfriend.

Heather: Oh ho ho! I don’t think so. You were desperately in love with me too!

Jo: Ha! You are living the dream of every brokenhearted, closeted college lesbian who’s in love with their straight best friend — confronting them years later to demand they admit they loved you back.

Heather: Oh man, I’m going to bring Maya Rudolph out like The Good Place and present my evidence of your gay infatuation and have her make a ruling.

Jo: I’ll save you the trouble: Yes, of course, I was in love with you too. We were in love as much as two 20-year-old closeted Baptist girls from the deep south could be in the late ’90s and early ’00s.

Heather: And how long would you say that your gay love for me lasted?

Jo: Two years or something right? A long time. We met and immediately hit it off and started spending every second together. We took all the same classes. We studied together. We waited for each other after class when we didn’t have class together. We ate all our meals together. We went home with each other some weekends. We slept in your bunkbed — on the top bunk of your bunkbed together.

Heather: Just straight girl stuff.

Jo: So straight.

Heather: And that went on until people started talking about it, which you realized was happening and I did not.

Jo: Right yeah. You and I never talked about it. We weren’t — it was a… how do I say this? It was 1999! In Georgia! I didn’t know any other gay people, did you?

Heather: Oh no absolutely not. And the only thing on TV at that time had been Ellen’s coming out, which was, where we lived, villainized like —

Jo: Yeah Ellen was Satan.

Heather: Right. We were both kind of working backwards, I think. Or I was. Being gay made you Satan. I loved Jesus. Therefore I did not love Satan therefore I was straight.

Jo: Yes, me too. So we — we never even kissed. We cuddled a bit. We just said we were really really good friends. Then I started to hear all these rumors about us, which didn’t make me pull away from you, but it did make me go get a boyfriend.

Heather: God, I hated that motherfucker.

Jo: He was a motherfucker.

Heather: I got a boyfriend when you did but mine was nice!

Jo: He was.

Heather: To be fair, though, I would have hated him anyway; even if he had been nice. Which leads us to my next question, which is: why did we break up? And I’ll answer that. It’s because your boyfriend compelled me to act like a psychopath.

Jo: Hahahaha!

Heather: It changed my entire personality. I felt sick all the time. Sick and jealous and nauseous and jealous and just sick. All the time. I started picking fights with you. I started being needy and clingy and asking you where you’d been and what you’d been doing and were you, like, SINNING with your new boyfriend. I’m so embarrassed even thinking about it. I remember so clearly being like, “Jesus is going to be PISSED if you give him a blow job.”

Jo: I’m embarrassed too but it’s because I think I made you spin out much worse that you would have anyway because I pretended you were overreacting, that we were OH MY GOD JUST FRIENDS. Invalidating what we’d been doing — even if neither of us had named it — was cruel.

Heather: We were so mean to each other that spring. I don’t think I have ever been that mean to anyone in my life. I am sweating thinking about it.

Jo: We were terrible.

Heather: I wish we could time travel and go hug our little selves. But that’s why we “broke up.” You Regina George-ed me.

Jo: Haha, what?

Heather: Regina George! “So then in eighth grade, I started going out with my first boyfriend Kyle who was totally gorgeous but then he moved to Indiana, and Janis was like, weirdly jealous of him. Like, if I would blow her off to hang out with Kyle, she’d be like, ‘Why didn’t you call me back?’ And I’d be like, ‘Why are you so obsessed with me?'”

Jo: Hahaha, yes. I Regina George-ed you.

Heather: What did you learn from our relationship?

Jo: That I’m a lesbian.

Heather: No you didn’t.

Jo: No, I didn’t. I don’t think, in the moment, I learned anything from our relationship because I was too scared to look at it closely, especially after people started talking. But after our relationship, years later, when we were both out, you sent me that letter. It’s one of the nicest things anyone has ever done for me. You apologized and forgave me — without saying that exactly, that you were forgiving me — and said some really sweet and charitable things. I think that’s the most grown-up thing I’d ever seen at that point in my life, even more than what was modeled for me by my parents and step-parents. I thought, “Okay, this is what it’s like to be a real adult. It’s about taking responsibility for yourself and trying to make amends because it will heal the other person, not because you want to feel better about yourself.” I still have that letter. Seeing who you are now, I look back on that and can see you were in the process of becoming your real self.

Heather: That’s such a generous thing to say. Thank you. Your response was equally kind.

Jo: Anything was kind compared to the way we tried to destroy each other in college.

Heather: Still, though. I’m 41 and I only know a handful of people who can actually apologize.

Jo: Yeah, me too.

Heather: What do you miss most about me?

Jo: What I miss most about that time in my life is having elasticity in my face skin and being able to get up off the floor without making an involuntary moaning sound.

Heather: Ahahaha! Can you imagine sleeping in a twin bunkbed with another person now?

Jo: No, my wife would divorce me if I suggested it.

Heather: Stacy and I have a Queen size Casper mattress and I’m never going to sleep on anything else again. We have this thing at Autostraddle called A-Camp, which is adult summer camp and these grown-ups sometimes get up to shenanigans in twin beds and I’m like, “…how???”

Jo: Really. How.

Heather: Would you invite me to your wedding? You didn’t!

Jo: I didn’t. It would have been a scene.

Heather: How do you mean?

Jo: I’ve stayed friends with some people from college and stuff, but when you burned those bridges, you really burned them. You know how people are with you. You moved to New York and you became a writer and you hate men and you antagonize people on Facebook about politics. A lot of people from around here—

Heather: Are obsessed with me.

Jo: Kind of yeah. You’re the prodigal daughter. Are you going to invite me to your wedding?

Heather: Oh, it’s going to be very small.

Jo: Hahaha!

Heather: Sorry!

Jo: No, don’t be. We shared something really special and terrible and then special again when we were able to forgive each other and ourselves and that’s more than most lesbians like us get from their first loves.

Heather: You weren’t my first love.

Jo: What? Heather Hogan!

Heather: I tried to run over my first love’s boyfriend with a truck in my high school parking lot.

Jo: So you had a pattern of being psychopath!

Heather: Well, I haven’t tried to murder anyone in years. I’ve grown.

Jo: You seem very content, Hogan.

Heather: I am happier than I ever thought I could be. Even when things are hard, I’m like, “Man, I fell in love with the most wonderful woman and she loved me back and we have built such a warm and fun and supportive life together where we’re both pursuing and achieving our dreams!”

Jo: Gross.

Heather: Thank you for talking to me today… Jo March.

Jo: You’re welcome… Laurie.

Heather: Okay, that’s gross.

Interview With My Ex-Girlfriend: Kelly

Welcome to Interviews With My Ex-Girlfriend in which Autostraddle writers get back in touch with their ex-girlfriends to ask them Five Simple Questions:

1. How long did we date?
2. Why did we break up?
3. What did you learn from our relationship?
4. What do you miss most about me?
5. Would you invite me to your wedding (why/why not)?

---

Kelly and I met in Halifax, Nova Scotia in 2008 at some kind of back-to-school barbeque that the LGBTQ student group at Dalhousie University was putting on. We were both Master’s students, although Kelly was a year into hers and I had just moved across the country to start mine. It was my first time living outside the province I grew up in and I had only come out a few years earlier. We both ended up becoming part of this Dalhousie queer crowd and for a little while were both dating other girls from that group who were also dating each other, but secretly? That was weird. Anyway, we were good friends for a while, until we stopped dating those other people and started dating each other. We lived on the same block of the North End of Halifax but u-hauled fairly early anyway. I remember when I asked my roommates if it would be cool if she moved in, they told me that she pretty much lived there already, so she might as well start paying rent. We left Halifax after graduating from school and did a bunch of travelling, in New Zealand, Costa Rica, and B.C., before we moved to London, ON where we both started PhD programs (Kelly eventually finished hers, I … did not). In 2012, we were both leaving London, heading out to our respective home coasts — hers east and mine west — for indefinite amounts of time. We were still technically a couple when we parted ways. I didn’t know at the time that that would be the last time we saw each other in person, to this day.

Casey: It’s nice to be interviewing someone I know. I’ve been really nervous when I interviewed authors. I always feel awkward.

Kelly: It’s harder when you’re not just sitting down with somebody. I’d be nervous. Wait, is that a ponytail? Holy shit, your hair’s really long.

Casey: I know.

Kelly: Oh my god, I didn’t even see that.

Casey: Okay. What’s the first question… How long did we date?

Kelly: Three and a half years.

Casey: Was it three and a half?

Kelly: We started dating in …

Casey: 2009?

Kelly: I’m getting it mixed up, cause we went to New Zealand in October. What month did we start dating? We started dating in February.

Casey: Yeah, cause our anniversary was Valentine’s Day. No, no, it was just before Valentine’s Day.

Kelly: February 2008!  ‘Cause we went to New Zealand in 2009 and moved to London in 2010.

Casey: No I think that’s a year off because I graduated from UVic in April 2007 and I lived in Victoria for a year and then I moved to Halifax in the fall of 2008.

Kelly: Yeah, we met in 2008 and got together in 2009. And then we went to New Zealand that October. We weren’t together very long before we went to New Zealand.

Casey: Yeah, before we, like, moved into a tent together.

Kelly: Exactly. So three and a half years. Maybe three years and a quarter if you want to get specific.

Casey: Yeah, cause I’ve been thinking about that with my current relationship with Jorge, which is now my longest relationship.

Kelly: How long have you guys been together?

Casey: It’s probably about the same amount of time that you and I dated. A little over three years now.

Kelly: That’s right, cause June is your anniversary.

Casey: What?! How do you know that?

Kelly: Is it June?

Casey: No, umm what is our anniversary…No, it’s in April! April 21st.

Kelly: Yeah, so you and I were together about a month less than that. Well congratulations.

Casey: Thank you. How long have you and Erin been together now?

Kelly: Going on five?

Casey: Whoa.

Kelly: Yeah, I know. It’s longer than me and Alex because we broke up and then got back together.

Casey: Oh yes, it’s always hard to know if that counts.

Kelly: This is the longest I’ve been with someone without breaking up.

Casey: Okay so three years and three months. Good, now we have a very precise date. Number one is done! Number two: why did we break up? Many reasons?

Kelly: Many reasons. I didn’t know who I was. I would say that we started to drift apart and then I just didn’t know what I wanted. What’s your take on why we broke up?

Casey: Um.

Kelly: You can say I was a jerk.

Casey: Ha! No, that makes sense to me. You got into this space where you were trying to figure out who you were and what you wanted. Being with me, you were kind of forced into or trying on this certain role that maybe wasn’t the best fit for you. It wasn’t super natural for you. Also we were very similar in some ways and I was wanting someone who was different from me in ways that you weren’t. Like, I remember when we were in New Zealand and I made you call all the places we were going to stay at cause I hate talking to strangers on the phone. You know, that kind of thing, where I was like, you do this role.

Kelly: I’ve been thinking about this a little. In some ways we were too much alike. There were certain things about you that were too similar to me that almost threatened me. But then I was also threatened by some of the ways that we were different. The ways we were alike and different didn’t always overlap comfortably. They overlapped well as friends. But I think we were uncomfortable with the roles we were falling into. Well, I’ll speak for me. I was uncomfortable with the role I was falling into.

Casey: I don’t think I realized that at the time but I can see that now.

Kelly: I think that’s hard with two women. I think that’s a distinct problem that two women face. It’s that, first you’re friends with somebody. And you know you’re compatible. But you don’t know if you’re compatible just as friends or if you’re compatible as a couple because you care about each other. And then I think it can be hard as well because then there’s a lot of flexibility with roles and it’s awesome—

Casey: Yeah, you can create whatever you want. But if you don’t know what you want, then it’s kind of hard!

Kelly: Exactly!

Casey: Or if you’re just trying things out. Like, I don’t know, maybe this will work!

Kelly: It can be hard to not have as much of a formula that you can change.

Casey: This is reminding me of that conversation we had over Christmas break before we got together and we were instant messaging. You were trying to see if I might be interested and I wrote back something like “yes, this is why we’re great friends” and then you were like, “oh, rejected”!

Kelly: I forgot about that!

Casey: See, maybe I was right all along!

Kelly: Yeah, we were great friends. Do you have anything you want to add to that?

Casey: I don’t know, this is more for me personally, but I was at this transitional period with other stuff in my life where my anxiety had gotten really bad, I had decided I didn’t want to do the English PhD anymore and that also meant I was moving away from London and you were also moving back to Halifax to do your research. It felt like in other parts of our lives we were going in different directions. I’m sure if things had been great in the relationship at that point we could have sustained it but…

Kelly: We would have been forced to work through things and make more finite decisions had we not been leaving at that time. But it was easy for it to fizzle out because we went to opposite coasts and didn’t work at it. It was a weird time. London was really hard.

Casey: Yeah, it was. I have to say I don’t have great memories of that place.

Kelly: We went through a lot together. I’ll say, I grew up with you. I was a kid. I hadn’t left Nova Scotia. There were a lot of growing pains there.

Casey: It’s funny because I always thought you were the one who knew a lot about relationships when we were together. I was like, “well she knows more than me because” — wait, how long were you and Alex together?

Kelly: 6 years.

Casey: I thought, well she must know tons about relationships. Good thing I can follow her lead!

Kelly: I think that’s also what made me uncomfortable, because I was seen as this bastion of knowledge which I was not. I mean, Alex and I were crazy, that was not a good example. I see now that that was all I knew. I didn’t know what to expect either. And you didn’t know, so we were trying to create it based on not knowing a lot.

Casey: Another thing I’ve been thinking about is how much is good to have in common with your partner. I feel like with Jorge and with Liz — with him and her I wish and wished we had more of our interests in common. I really liked that about our relationship. We always wanted to go to the same events, we were always interested in the same stuff. Whenever I wanted to go to something, it was great, because you wanted to go to that too. And that’s nice, but it’s not something, it’s not a factor that’s strong enough to keep the relationship together.

Kelly: I would say I miss that too, if that’s one of our topics.

Casey: Oh yeah, that is one of the questions. But the next one is, what did you learn from our relationship?

Kelly: Oh, so much. I … you go first!

Casey: Hey, you’re the interviewee, what do you mean I go first?

Kelly: Well, see before I was with you I was with someone who was really domineering in their personality and I thought I was this super introverted person. And when I got with you, this whole extroverted thing came out and part of it, yeah I didn’t love having a role all the time, but part of it was great. I loved what you brought out in me because I didn’t know it was there. So I felt strong and I learned a lot of things about myself, that I could be this extroverted person who was confident. That helped me grow as a person. If we started dating in 2009, then that’s eight years ago. That’s fucked up, a long time ago. We were 24.

Casey: That’s young.

Kelly: I learned who I could be outside of the other people I’d been with. I learned who I was outside of the place I grew up in. You led me to travel the world. I hadn’t travelled before, I was petrified. I mean, it was hard. I cried in New Zealand, I cried in B.C., I cried everywhere but it was so important. I learned a lot about myself. And I learned bad things too. I learned that I can be controlling. I learned that I need to let go of some things. For me, you were my second relationship, so once you’ve had a couple relationships, you see yourself through different people’s eyes and you start to see some of those patterns. I learned a lot about what I needed to change.

Casey: We were on different trajectories in that way, because it was your second long-term relationship, but it was my first long-term relationship. Not that we were exactly a model for how to be in a relationship, but I feel like I learned what an intimate partnership was and what that feels like from us. When I’m thinking about my current relationship I often think back to us. It’s nice to know that I have a measure of how I was in our relationship but I know that’s not how I always have to be in a relationship. Does that make sense?

Kelly: Yeah, it’s good to know because we react so much off other people, as humans. When we’re with someone we can see parts of ourselves, things that we like, things that we don’t like.

Casey: I feel like I know myself a lot better in my relationship now, I know what I want, what are negotiable things I can compromise on and what I can’t compromise on, that I wouldn’t have realized before.

Kelly: I came out of our relationship knowing what I needed, based on things I got, things I didn’t get out of the relationship. I also learned that relationships don’t always have to be hard. Compared to my first relationship, you were so easy. If I hadn’t gotten frustrated and needed something more, if I hadn’t had an issue, I think we would have just coasted along, because you were just so … easy. And sometimes I knew that you weren’t super satisfied, but you didn’t know the words of what you needed, which was hard, but overall it was very smooth. So I think I learned that you don’t always have to fight. That was nice! Our first three years felt easy to me. Conflict-free.

Casey: Yeah easy and comfortable. We never fought. Maybe we should have fought more.

Kelly: I feel like I was picking fights because I wanted more, I wanted to know what was going on in that Pisces brain of yours.

Casey: I knew you were going to bring up astrology!

Kelly: It’s for Autostraddle, we have to bring up astrology.

Casey: When you were talking about these extroverted and introverted sides of yourself, that was reminding me of your Gemininess. Where you’ve got the two twins thing going on.

Kelly: I do, and that can be hard for anyone, not just me reacting off you. That’s something I have to deal with in me. I mean, I have conflict with myself. I’m really vocal, I’m really verbal, and that’s a reason we didn’t get along as well at the end as a couple. We have different ways of communicating. That’s still a problem for me. I still struggle in my present relationship with communication. Wanting to spell things out in certain ways instead of being intuitive.

Casey: That’s another thing I learned from our relationship. In the relationship with you I felt like I was doing things wrongs if I was communicating in certain ways and I realize now that I have a certain tendency of how to be and how to communicate and I don’t have to change that. I can compromise and do things differently, but… Again because I was looking to you as this relationship expert when we were together, I thought, oh she’s saying that I’m not doing this, I must be doing this completely wrong, how can I do better? I realize now that, no, it’s fine that I don’t communicate the way you were wanting.

Okay number four is, what do you miss most about me? And, I guess, our relationship? I already said I miss how we liked all of the same things and wanted to go to the same events.

Kelly: I know! I was thinking the same thing so I’m trying to think of something different. I miss the fact that we had such a friendship, built into our relationship. That it was based on similar tastes in music and just culture. In terms of lesbian culture — you identified as a lesbian at the time — so our familiarity with mainstream lesbian culture. I think at the time we thought of ourselves in a similar way in relation to movies and music and books.

Casey: Sometimes I think back on that time in my life, when we were together, in Halifax some but more London where I really felt like I was a part of a queer women’s community. I’ve never found that in Vancouver, even before me and Jorge got together. I don’t know if that was more our relationship or just that time and place in my life.

Kelly: I really liked that our relationship was conducive to that. That we said, okay, let’s live in this house with another couple. That’s one thing I miss about us, I guess a good way to say it would be its flexibility. We were really open to new things together. We lived with that other couple in that big house and we built this beautiful thing, the ladies of Lorne [the street we lived on] and the parties we had. I really liked that about you, you just kind of create, or I don’t know if you create them, but they come to you, these special little worlds.

Casey: Aw, that’s nice.

Kelly: I always felt that you had great people in your life. You had a decent read on people. I get charmed by people and you always had a decent read on people.

Casey: Oh my god, do you remember when we met my friend Heather’s new girlfriend—

Kelly: I was thinking of the same thing!

Casey: You were so charmed by her and I was like, oh my god, she’s terrifying.

Kelly: Then a week later I was like, oh you’re right. I still talk about that, how she screamed at me for using the word gay in that bar [note: it was a gay bar] and how she told me that I was trans and that she had a hard time saying she for me.

Casey: So offensive.

Kelly: But anyway, you have a good read on people. And you had really nice people in your life. I miss that. Your life felt very youthful and you had this amazing crew of people in your life that I felt like I got adopted into. That was really special. I kind of had this other family.

Casey: I always think about you and our relationship when I think about Nova Scotia. I texted you the other day when I was reading that book set in rural Nova Scotia because it was reminding me so much of you. I think very fondly of Nova Scotia. I only lived in Halifax for a year, so I wouldn’t have had that kind of attachment to Nova Scotia if we hadn’t been together for years after that and I hadn’t gotten to visit it every holiday and in the summers.

Kelly: And you saw rural Nova Scotia, you know, the real stuff.

Casey: I miss that about you. If we were still together I would have an excuse to go to Nova Scotia all the time which I do not have anymore.

Kelly: Yeah, I miss B.C. too. Also, especially talking to you again, I miss your youthfulness. You always felt very light. Even when you were really stressed, you just kind of ran around like a little baby deer. I can be really heavy and intense, so I liked that.

Casey: You were so passionate about things. It was contagious when you got really excited about something. You were always starting new projects about whatever new thing it was that you were interested in—

Kelly: You should see me now at this fucking house. That hasn’t changed.

Casey: That’s nice to be around. Jorge’s great for me to be around, especially as an anxious person, because he’s very calm and very steady. He rarely gets angry, but he also rarely gets super pumped up about something. Sometimes with him I have to get into that role of saying, “let’s go do this thing, it’s going to be really fun.” He likes it when he’s there but when we’re at home he’s like, “Uh, I don’t wanna go anywhere.” I find it tiring to have to do that sometimes and it was great with you because it was you doing that.

Casey: Okay, next question: would you invite me to your wedding and why or why not?

Kelly: Oh, sure.

Casey: Wait, you guys are engaged!

Kelly: Yeah, we haven’t really planned it.

Casey: That happened a while ago, didn’t it? How long ago did you get engaged?

Kelly: A year ago.

Casey: That’s a long engagement.

Kelly: We’re cheap, and we’re going to Newfoundland this summer. We’re thinking next August. Just something little.

Casey: Aw, that sounds nice.

Kelly: Well I have no qualms about inviting you to my wedding. And Jorge.

Casey: It would be pretty strange to go to your wedding at this point, because I’ve literally never seen you in person since we broke up.

Kelly: Yeah I would invite you, but would you come?!

Casey: Well that’s the other part of the question. Realistically I have no money, so not unless it’s sometime when I have more! And flights are so expensive. Jorge and I are going to Japan in the fall and got return tickets from Vancouver to Tokyo for like $750. That’s less than it would be to go to Nova Scotia and back. Honestly, I would be very flattered and honored to be invited to your wedding and I would also invite you to mine, although I’m not engaged so that’s only theoretical for me, but I feel like it would be weird and emotional for me to see you in person again. I don’t know if your wedding would be the best time for that to happen. I don’t know exactly how I would feel. I’m sure things would come up. A wedding is about the two people getting married — I mean, I know sometimes it ends up being what their families want — but it’s supposed to be about them, not the shit that other people in their lives are going through. I feel like it would be better if I saw you in person at another point first before going to your wedding.

Kelly: Yeah, that makes sense. So do you have any more questions on your list?

Casey: No, that’s it! There’s only five. I think the idea of the questions is that they’re kind of a catalyst for talking about your relationship.

Kelly: Yeah, it got me walking down memory lane for sure.

Casey: Like I was saying before, when I think about where I am in my current relationship, I think of ours cause it was as long as the one I’m in now. But I don’t know what’s going to happen for me from now on cause I’ve only ever been in a relationship for three and a half years!

Kelly: I feel the same way with Erin. This is all new territory. Relationships are the most interesting thing in a person’s life, I think. They really show you who you are and they really shape your life. I’m trying to think if I have any regrets. I feel like I regret chickening out at the end. I didn’t know what I was feeling. I felt really confused and scared. It’s really unlike me to just let things fizzle away. That’s one regret I always had, how it ended. I just didn’t know why it wasn’t working. It’s hard for me to answer the question of why we broke up, because it wasn’t this moment or this thing, there was no cheating. I couldn’t put my finger on it, on what was going on. I don’t know if you could either.

Casey: Looking back I feel like it would have been better if you had just explicitly ended the relationship earlier. I guess it would have been awkward when we were still living in London.

Kelly: But I didn’t want to!

Casey: You had been checked out of the relationship for a while. You had started talking about us maybe dating other people. You told me, “oh I think Carrie likes you, you should hook up with her.” I was like, “what?!”

Kelly: I think I was really trying to explore what I was feeling.

Casey: That to me was a super weird red flag. I mean Carrie was cute and great and whatever, but I was not going to go hook up with her cause we were still together and that was not part of our relationship dynamic. You don’t remember that?

Kelly: Not really. That’s weird. I was weird. It’s hard for me to untangle everything else that was going on in our lives from our relationship. Even now I have a hard time doing that. Feeling about your own life versus how you feel about someone else. I was doing a really bad job of that at the time.

Casey: And because it was my first relationship I didn’t know what kind of things were stuff you should work on or get over or things that are “normal” conflicts or problems in a relationship. I had no idea how to tell if it was something that could be mended or not, our relationship.

Kelly: I couldn’t tell either. My relationship before that had been so volatile and so intense. Me and Alex did not know when to break up. I had no gauge for that either. But I feel like it wasn’t bad for very long. We didn’t go through this volatile time. I was absent for a while. You know what, it was after you went home for that Christmas.

Casey: That’s funny. I feel like our relationship had been going downhill since that September when we moved back to London.

Kelly: After being in Nova Scotia and B.C.?

Casey: Yeah I remember feeling comfortable and confident with you and in our relationship before and after that a little bit of nagging something that wasn’t right.

Kelly: What bothered me a lot was… Well I was really excited in some ways because with Alex I was often made to feel like I didn’t know things or made to feel stupid or small or whatever but with you I felt really strong and big. I felt significant. But then also there were times when I wanted you to overpower me. I wanted you to say “this is what you’re doing and it’s fucked up, stop it.” I felt like I was this whirling dervish, spinning around freaking out. That’s were Erin is really good, she has that finger that goes down on the whirling dervish, like: stop. I needed someone to tell me when I was fucking up. And to tell me what I was doing when I didn’t know what I was doing. When I didn’t know if I was checking out or being controlling or any of those things. I loved the feeling of being extroverted but it was almost like I went too far and I needed you to rein me in. I don’t know how else to describe it.

Casey: I don’t think I was capable of doing that then. I feel a lot more confident in my relationship now about being able to give Jorge a perspective outside himself that I couldn’t with you.

Kelly: That comes with age and maturity and having a lot of relationships. It’s something that you totally learn from being in relationships. I mean, Jorge is your second one after me.

Casey: There you go, there’s another thing I learned.

Kelly: You learned how to know what you need and to ask for it. To demand it!

Interview With My Ex-Girlfriend: Meg

Welcome to Interviews With My Ex-Girlfriend in which Autostraddle writers get back in touch with their ex-girlfriends to ask them Five Simple Questions:

1. How long did we date?
2. Why did we break up?
3. What did you learn from our relationship?
4. What do you miss most about me?
5. Would you invite me to your wedding (why/why not)?

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Meg was my second girlfriend and the third major relationship of my twenties. When we met, I was just graduating college, and she was about a year out and just out of a seven-year relationship. Our relationship was intense and immersive, with one of those protracted, bumbling endings where we broke up and got back together, still spending nearly every day with each other, for months.

Suffice to say, Meg and I had a very painful breakup. It took a few years afterward for us to start talking again, and even then a few more years of me being alternatively wary of and heartbroken all over again when talking to her. I ended up moving to Brasil for half a year soon afterward, in part because of heartbreak and in part because I was in my early twenties and I didn’t know what to do with my life.

Eventually, however, time did what it does and while we don’t talk often, I consider us good friends. She’s someone I go to when I need to talk to someone who knows me. A head’s up: Meg and I tend to overlap and talk over each other a lot. It’s a habit of two people in constant competition to get to a joke first (she usually won).

---

Raquel: Hello! This is not going to be clean, I think. I don’t know. How do you feel about this? How’re you feeling?

Meg: Fine, I feel good.

Raquel: Yeah?

Meg: I feel chill. Are you going to quote me on that?

Raquel: Yes.

Meg: “With a gimlet in her hand, she was feeling quote-unquote ‘chill’…Despite the 100-degree weather…”

Raquel: Should I do like a New Yorker Profile on you? “shaggy-headed and golden-framed…”

Meg: Yeah, exactly, ‘Half-zipped shirt…”

Raquel: “Fiona Apple crawled under the table…and…” Anyway. How long did we date? I think this might be a question under some contention.

Meg: I think it might be. I think in total we dated for like… a year and a month.

Raquel: Okay, I usually say a year and a half, but I might be adding things.

Meg: Well we met at the beginning of April 2012? 2013?

Raquel: I think 2013, because that’s when I graduated.

Meg: Yeah so it was 2013. I met you before you graduated!

Raquel: You did!

Meg: Because I came to your senior show and all your friends were staring at me.

Raquel: Oh god, I forgot about that. I had that awful haircut.

Meg: You were blonde. And I think you were wearing a tie, and I was wearing a Tintin t-shirt.

Raquel: Ha! I love that T-shirt.

Meg: I still have it. Also, that was the first time I met [friend] and she STARED at me. So did all your friends.

Raquel: How did you feel about that?

Meg: It kinda felt good, ’cause I assumed it meant that you’d said good things about me to them, ’cause you were excited. Then I went to the graduation party at your house—

Raquel: Oh God.

Meg: And your ex sat next to you! And I sat at the children’s table.

Raquel: You guys chose where to sit!

Meg: And I built you a really nice wooden box and you rushed it away and then lost it.

Raquel:  Shut up. Okay. First of all, this is not making me look good, but that’s fine. Second of all, you guys relegated yourselves to the garden table.

Meg: Somebody had to sit there, and nobody else was!

Raquel: I’m actually very deeply sad about losing that box. So, a year and a month?

Meg: Yeah.

Raquel: When would you say we broke up?

Meg: When we came back from San Antonio.

Raquel: Okay. I feel like…

Meg: Well we also broke up several times before that. We broke up in January, but that was really brief. And then my birthday was in April, and you got really mad at me…

Raquel: Because you put an arm around me, and an arm around [your ex], and said, ‘”I hope every birthday, I’m flanked by two exes!” Which is very funny, but also so fucked up! Especially because I was still in love with you. So, a year-ish?

Meg: A year-ish, yeah.

Raquel: Okay. Why did we break up?

Meg: You’ve probably been wanting an answer to this for a while!

Raquel: Yes, I would LOVE to know. But do you want to hear my theory before I hear whatever your answer is?

Meg: Yeah!

Raquel: My theory is that I was a fucked-up little ball of angst, and I didn’t know how to deal with that. And you were a fucked-up BIG ball of angst —

Meg: Wait, why am I bigger? Because I’m physically bigger?

Raquel: Because I’m 4’10″ and you are 5’10?

Meg: 10 ½ I think, on a good day. When I’ve been doing yoga.

Raquel: And neither of us quite knew how to get over our respective bullshit, even thought that was a big reason why we were with one another. YOUR way of dealing was to externalize, and my way of dealing was to internalize, and that eventually completely imploded on us. That’s the only answer I’ve got.

Meg: No that’s good! There’s a lot of truth to that, I agree that those things were happening. For me, I didn’t have the maturity — there wasn’t really a concept for either of us to work on ourselves or the relationship. So it just tailspinned, and then my M.O. was just to sabotage and ruin it, because that would be a lot easier than having to be frank about my shittiness. I think that I definitely blamed you. Well, not blamed you, but —

Raquel: Blamed me??

Meg: Not blamed you! But like, I definitely offset a lot of the “who’s crazy” onto you. Not consciously, but —

Raquel: As a self-defense mechanism?

Meg: Yeah. For sure.

Raquel: Interesting. I think I took on a lot more of that than I should have because I was already so prone to believe that I was crazy. That’s only half your fault.

Meg: The fallout started in January, and what sucked is that there was never a lack of love or interest in you, just the inability to keep it healthy.

Raquel: I was convinced you were going to break up with me during that horrile New Year’s on our friend’s farm, do you remember that?

Meg: Oh, god. I definitely said something —

Raquel: You said something that made me die.

Meg: I was under the influence of that horrible guy that was there! Remember? That racist guy who kept saying [awful thing I won’t repeat here]?

Raquel: I forgot. I should’ve punched him in the face.

Meg: And then [friend] and I got in a fight after that because she said I was too hard on him.

Raquel: Everything about that situation was weird and bad. Our relationship was in a bad place, and everyone’s relationship with everyone else was in a bad place, and it was like… why are any of us here??

Meg: (At the same time) Why are any of us here! Yeah!

Raquel: We were also in that weird distant bed and everything felt so disconnected.

Meg: I’m pretty sure the mattress bag was still on the mattress.

Raquel: That was horrible.

Meg: I was just like, I have to get out of here.

(long pause)

Raquel: Okay, next question: what did you learn from our relationship?

Meg: Absolutely nothing.

Raquel: Cool. Next question!

Meg: Okay, I think, outside of things I learned about our interpersonal relationship, I think I learned a lot of interesting and awesome things about design.

Raquel: For the record, I just rolled my eyes.

Meg: I learned how to say some really fun phrases in Portuguese that I still have!

Raquel: Okay, give me something real.

Meg: (mocking voice) Give me something goood!

Raquel: Giiiive me something reaaal!

Meg: I think that the relationship made me aware of how selfish I was. I’d just been in this seven-year relationship where there were no checks and balances on my own behavior.

Raquel: Really? Wow.

Meg: I was just fully enabled, and none of my behavior was questioned. And that’s the relationship I was in from the age of 17 until I was 24, so it’s like I crossed a really important life milestone without actually changing. It wasn’t until we dated — and you were someone who had normal expectations of their partner — that I realized that I needed to change. I’m not saying all of that happened in the span of our relationship, but it definitely was the impetus.

Raquel: I will respond in kind. I learned a lot from our relationship about how much I’m willing to give, to an unhealthy degree, and how little I cared for or paid attention to my own needs and asks, until it hurt so bad that I fucked everything up. I had my own shit of dating when I was 18, being in an emotionally abusive relationship and now knowing what the fuck was going on. So we both were set up to sabotage ourselves in that sense.

Meg: For sure. Also, you were my first girlfriend, and so that—

Raquel: Oh my god! I forgot that!

Meg: For the record, she just did a fist pump. [I did] So I think I was learning how to define myself outside of my previous relationship for the first time, but also was trying to understand who I was and how to express myself as a queer person.

Raquel: Yeah, that’s huge.

Meg: And I…wasn’t great at it. But we had a lot of fun!

Raquel: We definitely did. Um, this segue ways well into: What do you miss most about me?

Meg: Ohhhh. Internet cafe! Where we would literally just lay on the couch on our independent laptops and just share things on the internet! No, not just that. Good question. I wish I could go back to the six months after we broke up, because I missed you a lot, and it was like deep pangs, and I don’t know if I was ever really able to exactly identify anything specific about the origin of the pangs. I think, just having a partner in the very straightforward sense of it: we did everything together, we morphed into liking the same things and the same foods and the same places — or maybe you were pretending? I don’t know.

Raquel: No, I think you introduced me to so much!

Meg: And I would be obscene and you would think that I was really funny! And I would always call you a freak because you were A Freak.

Raquel: Fair.

Meg: I don’t know if that really answers the question. I was looking through my phone earlier today, because I was trying to find an embarrassing picture of the two of us, and I rediscovered our snapchat exchange where you’d send me pictures every day at work in the work mirror and I would send you pictures of where I’d cut myself at work that day —

Raquel: For the record, Meg was a carpenter.

Meg: Where I BLED that day, really.

Raquel: That was when I was at [marketing agency], where YOU got me fired!

Meg: I did not get you fired!

Raquel: Okay, I got myself fired because I would call in sick every Thursday to hang out with you all day.

Meg: That’s true.

Raquel: I was not ready to have a real job, and I haaated that job so much.

Meg: Looking back on the things that were enjoyable and fun, that definitely makes me miss you. For better or worse, I mean, maybe we indulged each other too much, but…

Raquel: Maybe a little! No but you taught me to get drunk on fancy cocktails instead of like, Everclear Punch.

Meg: Four loko.

Raquel: Oh my god, four loko. Not good. I remember when we went to San Antonio the first time —

[Note: I was going to reference a lovely trip we took early on in our dating life, where she took me to a fancy bar called the Brooklynite and plied me with the best whiskey sours I’ve ever had, but my oblique reference derailed into talking about our second trip to San Antonio, where we definitively broke up.]

Meg: Ohhhhhhhhhh

Raquel: Sorry.

Meg: (Sucks air in through her teeth and groans)

Raquel: That was horrible.

Meg: It was horrible for both of us. It was worse for you, but it was definitely bad for both of us…

Raquel: I was just convinced that it meant we were getting back together. Then the sudden realization that it we definitely were NOT was really hard for me.

Meg: I didn’t really even want to go on that trip on the first place! It was a surprise birthday trip with all of my friends like a month after my birthday, and also…

Raquel: Oh, I forgot it was for your birthday!

Meg: Because [friend] felt guilty that she wasn’t there for my birthday so she planned this whole thing and I was just like, this is not the right time…

Raquel: It was so bad.

Meg: I mean, when we got back you left my house and then never contacted me again. And I knew I couldn’t reach out to you.

Raquel: I told you not to talk to me. I don’t know if you remember that, but I told you not to ever speak to me again. Which is not what happened, but—

Meg: This is actually the first time we’ve spoken since!

Raquel: (Laughs) That’s a lie! I will say I spent a year in Brasil painting “Fuck You Meg** Ca****” on every hill I saw.

Meg: Nuh uh!

Raquel:  Not actually…

Meg: Not paint, but like, you know…one can journal. One can journal.

Raquel: Oh yeah, my journals are… (shakes head) I still have them, and I haven’t read them since. I’m literally scared to.

Meg: Oh wow.

Raquel: It was maybe the most depressed I’ve ever been. This is not totally your fault, it was also that I was unmedicated, and I hadn’t realized that I have major depressive disorder which can’t have helped our relationship. A lot of like — Getting the medication! Getting a good therapist! Actually taking care of myself! — Has helped a lot.

Meg: Right. I regret that.

Raquel: It’s hard to say how much of this is me punishing myself, and how much of this is real, but I think you had a lot to deal with, in the unfettered version of me that is not really me that I regret.

Meg: I guess I feel the same way. But in the opposite way.

Raquel: I think that’s growing up, you know?

Meg: Like I would not want to think back to that time and think, yep, still true to exactly how I was.

Raquel: I’m very happy that we were there for each other, because at least for me it was just such a painful part of my life, and you helped a lot with that. You hurt a lot, after, but I think we needed each other for a little bit, and that was important to me. Honestly what I miss the most is the training you gave me on being a bougie-ass bitch.

Meg: More of that! You’re now elevated to way above me.

Raquel: Thank you. No, what I honestly miss the most are just our long conversations on your porch until fucking 2 am or whatever. And any time you’d deign to give me some glimpse of your inner parts, I would jump at it.

Meg: Was that not… very common?

Raquel: No…I’m sorry…no.

Meg: (Laughs)

Raquel: But I tried to be supportive, and then also it meant so much to me because I wanted to know you.

Meg: Yeah. Definitely. I don’t know if that stands true today, I don’t think so.

Raquel: In what way?

Meg: I think I’m a lot more open than I was.

Raquel: I think you are too. I think I am too. That’s part of feeling less broken and vulnerable, in general. Like there’s always still a hidden part, but…

Meg: Yeah, for sure.

Meg:Your answers are a lot better than mine but I think you had time to prepare!

Raquel: Noo! That is not true. I’m just more eloquent than you are.

Meg: Ohhhh!

Raquel: No, that’s not true. Do you have anything else you want to add?

Meg: That I miss? Those beautiful blue eyes…

Raquel: I don’t have blue eyes.

Meg: No, I definitely miss our conversations, for sure. I would second that. Now I just get to read you in 140 characters or less.

Raquel: Ugh, that is not a beautiful version of me. Yeah, I miss our friendship. Not that we’re not friends now, but we don’t have that like — I don’t know. Okay, next question: would you invite me to your wedding? Why or why not?

Meg: That’s a good question, I mean I think that would be a liiiiittle ways out?

Raquel: Yeah.

Meg: If I was having a big wedding and we were still in contact, yeah.

Raquel: Yeah. Same. It’s like a maybe? But also like, probably.

Meg: You would not invite me if you were marrying someone who didn’t like me.

Raquel: I think I would! I think we’d have a conversation, but they would respect my wishes. Obviously not if it was a small wedding, but I’d like to have you at my wedding if we were still friends, and I hope we will be.

Meg: I’d say the same thing, I think. You’re the only ex of mine who other people that I dated didn’t hate.

Raquel: I’m glad I got that on record.

Meg: Every person I date hates all of my exes except for you. It sucks.

Raquel: I weirdly, really like all of the people you’ve dated since me. I mean, I hate that [ex] hurt you but when I met her, I liked her. I don’t know. I want you to succeed.

Meg: Yeah, and everybody you date has liked all your exes except me.

Raquel: Well, I’ve also dated a bunch of dudes, and they didn’t know anything about you, so!

Meg: (Laughs)

Raquel: I went through a period of time when I dated a bunch of developer boys because they were really sweet and smart and it was easy, but I was like, ‘I don’t actually… really…like any of you…’ I’m a bad bisexual!

Ok. Before I end it, any questions?

Meg: No, I think that’s good.

Raquel: Thank you for doing this. I know it’s hard…but I think it will be a good article!

Meg: We’ll see…

Raquel: We’ll see!

Save

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Interview With My High School Crush: Leanne

We all remember the First Girl. The one who made us go “Wait a minute,” or pushed us right off our axis, or maybe even broke our hearts. Sometimes she’s a friend, sometimes she’s a stranger, sometimes she’s straight, but she’s always there — the leading lady in every coming out story. In this case, I mean that literally. My First Girl was one of the stars of our high school theater department.

Leanne and I met in choir, which meant long hours in each other’s company and ample opportunities for me to fall headfirst into infatuation. The process of coming out to her, then to the world, and finally professing my love spanned two years, multiple choral festivals, and one high school musical (the official unit of time for artsy kids). And to her credit, she could not have responded better — especially given how Republican our hometown was. (Blessedly, I hear the tides are changing there now.) My crush on her deflated the minute I admitted it, but over ten years later, she’s still one of my closest friends. We talk at least once every couple weeks. There is life, dear readers, on the other side of high school queer confession.

In the mold of Interview With My Ex-Girlfriend, here’s an Interview With My High School Crush that would make 16-year-old me weep with joy. You’ll see.

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How long have we been friends?

It has to be since the beginning of high school, ish. My sophomore year, your freshman year. I was probably 15 — so you were 14? Holy shit.

I think you’re one year off, actually. I think it was my sophomore year, your junior year.

That makes a little more sense. But it’s not like we didn’t know each other; we didn’t become friends until my junior year, but I definitely knew you existed. We were in school together, and we were both in choir.

Yeah, in that way, we were very much in the same universe. Do you remember when we met?

Oh my God, way to put me on the spot. Do you?

Yeah! I was meeting the love of my teenage life, of course I remember!

[Laughs] That’s great! That’s so great.

Do you want to hear my memory of it?

Oh, I do. I really, really do.

I think it was at the airport before choir tour that year. Because I remember being in the elevator with you, going into the terminal. It’s such a specific memory for me. I knew who you were, but that was the first time I’d ever shared space with you.

You’re right! Now that you say it, yes, definitely. I just have this recollection of, like, “Oh, we must have bumped into each other in the hall and then we were besties. That’s how it goes sometimes!” But now you’re saying that, and that was totally our first interaction.

Right. And I remember seeing you and thinking “Oh my God, she’s so beautiful. She’s so beautiful.”

I love it. And I was just like [Singsong voice] “Doo doot dooooo,” totally not getting it.

The weird thing, though, is that I didn’t even know I was gay then.

Yeah, I know. Because you weren’t dating anybody then.

No, but —

But you did start dating somebody.

[Laughs] Oh, the readers of Autostraddle.com are gonna love this. Right. So on that trip, I wound up in this weird love triangle with these two boys that I clearly didn’t wanna be in, but I was like “Okay…?” And then one of them sucked less than the other, so I decided to date him upon returning.

Oh, God. That’s right!

Yeah! He was so sweet. He and I are still friendly. He’s delightful. But he was a guy.

It wasn’t your cup of tea.

Exactly. But you know what was my cup of tea, was you.

[Laughs]

Our friendship sort of blossomed on that trip as well, and was developing side-by-side with my relationship with him. And how I realized I was gay — I had a feeling, but how I knew — was that I was so much more invested in you. What you were doing, the stuff you cared about.

[Hasn’t stopped laughing]

Depending on how I felt that day — I don’t know if I’ve ever told you this — I would change my route through school to either go by your locker on purpose, or avoid you.

[Still laughing] Oh my God, Carrie. That’s funny. I don’t think you’ve told me that, no.

So that’s how I knew — I was like “Oh, I like her… a lot more than I like my boyfriend. I know we’re just friends, but I don’t feel this way about this guy.”

I remember we became friends really quickly. But also, that’s just how I am. Like, “Oh, whoops, now we’re really close!”

I would agree with that. I think you tend to be trusting of people.

Well, and I just know my people. And I’ve always been that way. I mean, obviously. You’re still one of my people, I still talk to you all the time, and it’s been over ten years. I always knew you’d be one of the people I’d carry on with. There was no other option, in my mind.

“I’ve never doubted for a second that you’re this magnificent person. Something in me always kind of knew that. I just knew it. So to have somebody like that tell you they’re in love with you — I really felt loved. I really did.”

So let’s jump ahead a little to the next year. I was a junior, you were a senior.

Right. And our choir teacher knew that you were in love with me by then.

Yeah, I’d told her.

And at that point you were, like, in love with me.

Yes.

You knew. I was still blissfully unaware.

So did you not realize at all that I was totally in love with you?

Oh no. No idea. I had no clue; I didn’t even know you were gay! I didn’t know how you felt about me until the night you told me. And even then, I was like “Oh — ohhh.”

But I think also, part of my personality is that I can be that oblivious. So I think I was like “Oh, we’re just best friends! Obviously!”

Do you remember when I came out to you?

Not really, no. And I know that’s awful. But now all I can think about is the night when you told me you were in love with me. [Laughs] That night, I’ll remember forever.

Okay, what do you remember about that night?

We must have gone out to get coffee or something, because we were in my car. At that point I had the dark green Camry —

Aww, RIP Camry! I loved that car!

Seriously. So we had come back, and we were in your driveway. I feel like I knew you needed to talk to me; that’s why we’d gone out that night, because I sensed that. And you totally had me freaked out. You must have been acting kind of weird that night and for a while before. Because when you were like “There’s something I need to tell you,” I thought you were dying. I had no clue.

I could tell it was something big. I was like “Oh fuck, this is huge. What is she gonna say to me?” And then you just told me you were in love with me, and I was like “Oh my God. What a relief. A) I’m really glad you’re not dying, and b) I love you so much.”

I just remember feeling “Oh my God. Okay, I see.” And just being so thankful. Having someone of your caliber, somebody who is obviously this immensely wonderful person, be in love with me and see me in that way was like, “Oh, if I could, yes, believe me.”

That’s so nice!

That’s the thing — I’ve never doubted for a second that you’re this magnificent person. Something in me always kind of knew that. I just knew it. So to have somebody like that tell you they’re in love with you — I really felt loved. I really did.

Also, I felt super hot. I was like “Oh, wow! This is great! Okay then!”

[Laughs] I do remember that. That’s sort of how I knew you were gonna take it well and we were gonna be okay. Also, thank you. That’s all amazing of you to say. That’s the way I felt about you, and is the way I feel about you still, but without the…

Misguided teen lust?

Exactly. [Both laugh] I just thought that you were so talented and gorgeous and funny. You were magnetic to me, and completely unlike anyone I’d ever met. Around this time was also when you were in Guys and Dolls, right?

Yeah.

I bring that up because it was a seminal moment in my gay development. You were Miss Adelaide, and I came to see you so. Many. Times. If they went back and tallied the ticket info from that, I’d pop up more often than anybody except, like, people’s moms.

[Laughs] Oh my God, Carrie, that’s amazing. I did not know that.

I was there so much! Because by then we were friends, and it was your first big role. For the record, you were incredible. But also, it just made me fall for you that much more. Seeing you in that element and being like “Oh wow, she’s so good at this.” It was hard!

Oh, I’m sure! I can’t even imagine, honestly.

“There was an intensity to you in high school. I think I got more of a front row seat to that than other people… I knew this other side of you, which was that you were going through a lot of shit.”

What was I like in high school?

You were ridiculously intelligent and a very, very, very good friend. I thought of you that way, and I know there were other people, too, who would say “Carrie’s solid. She has your back, she’s your person.” And also, I feel like coming out was huge for you internally, but also in terms of how you presented yourself.

There was an intensity to you in high school. I think I got more of a front row seat to that than other people — because you didn’t let them see that part of you, ever. I think to other people, you were just super great all the time, super smart, getting shit done, always perfect. But I knew this other side of you, which was that you were going through a lot of shit — in high school, of all places.

Right. You were in the room when I officially came out for real. Do you remember that?

Oh yeah, definitely.

How did you feel being there? Because I’d asked you to come. It was at a Gay-Straight Alliance meeting, and I knew I was gonna say it, so I asked you to be there.

I felt so good, I felt so proud. I felt like, “Oh my gosh, Carrie is being Carrie — real Carrie, in front of everybody.” Even the Mormons! Were you out to our Mormon friends before then?

I’d come out to some of them one-on-one to test the waters, but there were a lot of people who didn’t know. And where we grew up was pretty conservative at that time.

It’s funny — I don’t think I ever really got how conservative it was. I don’t know where it comes from, because certainly my family doesn’t hold the same beliefs that I do, but it never occurred to me that you being gay would be a problem for anyone. Fundamentally, I don’t understand how it’s something you could be against. So I never quite had an awareness that that belief, that homophobia, was real for so many of our friends. To me it just never made sense. So anybody who said stuff like that, I was just like, “Nah” and never took them seriously, which I’m sure they loved.

But yes, I remember that day. I was so proud, just that you asked me to be there. Wow. Again — “This person fucking loves me enough to want me here for this moment?” I felt cool! I really did!

That’s so sweet! Because I always thought you were so much cooler than me, and that was part of my attraction to you. I was amazed that you even wanted to be friends at all. I had real rose-colored glasses on about you in high school.

Oh, I know, I get that. When you’re in love and also that infatuated with someone, everything can feel really different than it actually is. I understand that, and it’s even more meaningful now that I get it and have been in love myself. Of course you had rose-colored glasses on.

I really thought you were a flawless person.

Oh, it’s so great. [Both laugh]

How have I changed, and how has our relationship changed, since then?

You’re completely different than you were in high school. Really, though. I mean, you’re still Carrie — you’ve still got shit on lock, and you’re still ridiculously awesome and super intelligent and absolutely wonderful. But you’re just… you’re you. It took a while for you to actually be fully gay. There were some road bumps, there were some… people that had to be dealt with [laughs], but they helped push you toward where you had to go.

You’re definitely fully who you are now. And I always knew we were gonna get to this point. I’ve talked about this! “Oh, can I come to your cool parties where all the awesome power lesbians are?” “Sure!” And then it happens.

You literally came to a New Year’s party at my girlfriend’s house this year.

Yeah! With a bunch of super awesome gay women! Told you!

What was that like for you, seeing my life? Because we don’t live in the same place, so now a lot of our friendship happens over the phone — we talk all the time, but it’s not like we’re in each other’s day-to-day.

That was fantastic. I was just like, “Jesus, you’re so hip, I can’t even deal.” It was so cool I didn’t know what to do. But also, I’d expect this from you. Everybody was so rad.

It felt important to bring you into my world and show you what I’ve actually been doing, because we’d sort of existed in this vacuum for each other. I was so excited that you got to meet my girlfriend, too.

That was so beautiful. She is so beautiful, and you are so beautiful together. Even just all your cute photos on Instagram — I can’t even like them enough. I like them so much it hurts. But seeing you together in real life — you’re with her, and she’s with you, there’s so much love there, and I’m like, “Thank God.” Because it took a minute, y’know? For so many reasons. But just to see a friend in that space is the best. “You’re in a good relationship that comes with ridiculously awesome friends who do amazing work? Great!”

Also, they all thought you were really hot. The minute you left, everybody was like, “You had good taste in high school!”

[Laughs] I feel like I always look significantly hotter when I’m in Los Angeles. It’s, like, this inner thing. Talk about high school — my inner LA can’t not come out when I’m there. All of a sudden I just get five degrees hotter.

You are very hot, still. I will say that.

Well, thanks — I’m not gonna turn that down! [Laughs]

“There’s a truth to you. You’ve always had it, it was there even before we met, but I think I’ve learned what it is to be true to yourself through you.”

Okay, so —

Wait. You know what else I want to say about you getting older?

What?

Your haircut is so perfect right now. [Both laugh] It went through some phases, but I feel like it finally landed at the Hot Gay Lady Short Haircut. It was longer for a while, and then you finally went short, and right now it just looks perfect. Your whole style is, like, slaying now. I’m loving it.

Thank you, I agree. Good segue, actually: did you ever think about dating me in high school, and would you date me now?

Oh my God. [Laughs] Okay. High school, probably not, because I was so straight and white. I was from Republican Suburb, California. The person I am now was there, but wrapped up in that culture. So it was like “Oh, well, I couldn’t, because I’m a nice straight white woman.” There was no flexibility; it wasn’t a concept I had been introduced to. So I probably wouldn’t have dated you, because I just thought “Oh, this is not possible.”

I think, too, at that age, if you are a straight girl, you’re in love with some stupid, awful man-child. I can’t even believe teenage boys are a thing.

On that we agree. And what about now?

I probably would date you now, yeah. I mean, I haven’t dated a woman yet; I keep waiting. I’m really into this girl at work, who’s one of the only women I’ve ever been interested in. I don’t have those feelings all the time for women, but this is my first grown up, Big Girl Crush on a woman. [Editor’s note: The only reason I’m not completely flipping out right now is that she mentioned this situation to me long before our interview. Rest assured I reacted appropriately at the time.]

If we met now, as adults, I would totally date you. Especially if you pursued me.

Aww!

Oh, for sure. Hello! Are you kidding? Now I’m like “Well, guess I’m not as straight as I thought I was.”

Are you not as straight as you thought you were?

Definitely not as I thought I was, no. Again, it was so far away from my consciousness before that it wasn’t even an option. Fluidity wasn’t a thing, and I understand that it is now. But maybe it’s just that I’ve been working for lesbians for the last five years.

I work for lesbians now, and it’s definitely made me gayer, so.

This girl at work is the first woman that I’ve ever been like “I want to make out with you so badly that it’s hard for me to talk to you.” I definitely have a real crush on her. It took me a minute; at first I was like “Oh, you just think this chick’s cool. You wanna be her friend.” And then it kind of changed a little bit, and I’m like “Wait, that’s not what’s happening.”

Oh my God, wait. You’re going through what I went through. You’re me! You’re me at 16! She’s your Leanne!

I mean, it’s not going anywhere. She’s in a relationship, which I want her to continue to be in because it makes her happy — but I also want her to come to my house and sit in the hot tub. I have some conflicting wants and needs. [Laughs]

Also, I gotta say, it doesn’t hurt that men are just really upsetting to me all the time. It’s really hard for me to deal with male energy at all, especially right now. I’m just like “Nope, no thank you.”

Welcome aboard, I’ve been on this train for years. Okay, one last question: what have you learned from our relationship?

Oh gosh, Carrie Wade. I think, really, at the bottom of it, I’ve learned what a true friend is. And I feel like that was always the setup, on some level, between you and I. I was with you and part of a really, really intensely vulnerable moment in your life, and that set the tone for our entire relationship. So I’ve learned what it means to be a true friend, to show up no matter what’s going on. I feel like that’s something you do really well.

You teach me a lot of strength, and I guess that’s just you being you. Witnessing what you’ve gone through in your life, who you are, and knowing the strength you carry, I feel like I’ve learned what strength looks like — which is not something I say lightly or find in many of my other relationships. There’s a truth to you. You’ve always had it, it was there even before we met, but I think I’ve learned what it is to be true to yourself through you. You’ve always been witness to truths that other people can’t see, in my experience. When I think about you, it’s “Oh, this is what friendship means.”

I love you so much, I really do. It bears repeating.

I love you too.

I’ve held you in such high esteem, and I still do — this immense love and deep friendship. Somebody really witnessing you at your worst and at your best, and still showing up. That’s what it’s about.

Interview With My Ex-Girlfriend(?!): Emily

Welcome to Interviews With My Ex-Girlfriend in which Autostraddle writers get back in touch with their ex-girlfriends to ask them Five Simple Questions:

1. How long did we date?
2. Why did we break up?
3. What did you learn from our relationship?
4. What do you miss most about me?
5. Would you invite me to your wedding (why/why not)?

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Ah, A-Camp: the brainchild of my boss and buddy Riese Bernard, a glorious gathering of some of the most fantastic queers you’re likely to ever meet in a lifetime. The first A-Camp (April 2012) holds a particularly special place in my heart, both because it was such a bold experiment and also because it’s where I met one of my closest friends, Emily. If we’re being honest, I barely spoke to Emily at A-Camp; I thought she was really hot so I mostly hid from her, like the mature adult that I am. Afterwards, we struck up an online flirtation which eventually resulted in a visit, which led to us developing really serious feelings for each other almost immediately (which shocked us both). She ended up messing with her entire university schedule by delaying her return to Oregon – which at the time she told me she’d done because her mom missed her, but was actually done so we could hold hands and make out some more. We never made things official official, but we weren’t not a thing, you know?

Things were complicated; Emily lived in Eugene, Oregon at the time, and she also had a non-monogamous but committed relationship with her then-boyfriend, Daniel. While she prepared to spend a semester studying abroad in Buenos Aires, I excitedly prepared to come visit her there; I was really swept away with the romanticism of it all. Unfortunately, Daniel broke up with her right before she left, which threw all our plans into a turmoil. She was having a rough time, and I was just along for the ride. Through a lot of terrible circumstances beyond our control, our once-promising relationship was put on hold, and we both struggled to understand how we were going to fit into one another’s lives. After a lot of soul-searching and a lot of sadness, we ultimately decided to end our romantic situation and figure out how to be friends. At the time, it wasn’t my favorite decision anyone’s ever made, but in the end it turned out to be the right choice. We ended up closer than ever, and remain so to this day.

A lot of this interview focuses on the negative times we spent in relationship limbo! I believe it’s worth noting that while she is not particularly demonstrative by nature, Emily is super sweet, very thoughtful and a total babe. I’m glad we ended up where we are.

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Once upon a time, actually years after we broke up but whatever.

Emily: Hey.

Stef: Hello!

Emily: How are you?

Stef: I’m great.

Emily: You probably just heard my cat meow. He has a lot to say.

Stef: I didn’t, but if he wants to be interviewed as well…

Emily: He always does.

Stef: If this soundcheck starts, I’m gonna have to rethink this situation… I don’t know if you can hear this kick drum, but they’re starting.

Emily: Oh yeah.

Stef: So um, thank you for agreeing to have this interview.

Emily: (laughs)

Stef: Everything is normal and fine.

Emily: (laughs nervously) As usual.

Stef: Yes, of course. Uh, hold on, let’s pull up someone else’s interview.

Emily: Yeah, let’s just copy someone else’s interview, someone else’s answers.

Stef: So the first question is how long we were together for, which is a weird question for us.

Emily: It is a weird question.

Stef: Because we weren’t anything official…

Emily: I mean… I guess we were definitely flirting with each other on the internet for a long time before we actually hooked up.

Stef: That’s true. We made jokes about how I had designated you as my makeout intern, which was a super casual and normal thing to do.

Emily: Yeah, that was a time where we probably could have acknowledged something but didn’t… So I guess that was probably in spring?

Stef: Yeah, because the first A-Camp was in April, but I didn’t actually talk to you there.

Emily: Things escalated quickly.

Stef: I was actively avoiding you at A-Camp.

Emily: Right, as one does, until I stole your hat. So I guess that started in spring and even though it wasn’t like, official, things ended.. the next spring?

Stef: That sounds about right. So something was going on for like a year.

Emily: Something.

Stef: I’m not really sure… which leads me to the next question, which is why we broke up, or why it ended.

Emily: I will definitely take all of the blame.

Stef: Cool, because it was totally your fault.

Emily: One hundred percent. I was like, a complete… mess, I guess? I was not in a good place and I was having weird stuff with the other relationship I was in at the time, and then some other shitty things went down and that kind of sent me into an emotional spiral and I was not really doing a good job of relating to other people or like, doing anything except feeling miserable. That was unpleasant.

Stef: You were having a rough time for a while, and I think you actually handled it about as well as anybody could have.

Emily: Ehhhh.

Stef: When I’ve been in other situations where I wasn’t somebody else’s primary partner I’ve always found it really difficult, and I will admit that I totally resented Daniel for a while… which I think I had every right to.

Emily: Yeah, I think we talked about that pretty openly.

Stef: And he seemed like not such a big part of your life then, until all of a sudden he was.

Emily: That’s actually a very fair portrayal of the situation.

Stef: You guys seemed like roommates who never saw each other, you never mentioned him, and then he broke up with you and all of a sudden he was a huge part of everything.

Emily: Yeah, it was essentially that things had been in sort of a downward trend with him as well… We moved and he was miserable and it was my fault that we moved because I was going to school. He agreed to go but then was incredibly unhappy, and then we had completely opposite schedules and sort of drifted apart. He ended up really severely depressed and upset with me, and I was like “Holy shit, you’ve been such a big part of my life,” and it was an “I don’t want you to be a part of my life” sort of thing, so that was really hard and shitty. Once I was kind of back on the upswing and things were improving, then I was sexually assaulted by a stranger and that threw things more into disarray with my ability to cope with anything.

Stef: Yeah uh, everything was really fucked up.

Emily: It was not good, but I definitely did not handle the whole situation well.

Stef: I don’t think there was a great way to handle any of that situation honestly. I was so pumped to come visit you in Buenos Aires, and I was so excited and everything was going so great, and it was really intense really quickly, and then suddenly it was like, of course everything has to be on hold. You really gave me room to be upset about it, but I also was so invested, I just sat around waiting for a while until we decided it didn’t make sense for me to do that anymore. Uh, so that sucked. It ended up fine… and I actually like Daniel now.

Emily: He’s a better person now, I think.

Stef: Yeah, we’re like, cool internet friends. I did not see that coming.

Emily: Yeah, we had the right breakup later.

Stef: (sarcastically) Cool, good for you guys.

Emily: It was the “We can be friends” breakup. We’re both in much better places in our lives but uh, that did not go down well and I handled it like a dummy.

Stef: I mean, everything about it really sucked.

Emily: Yeah, sometimes I’m shocked that we still ended up being friends afterwards, I did not expect that to happen and I’m really glad it did, but for a while there I was like, well she’s gonna fuckin’ hate me forever.

Stef: It was definitely rough going for a minute. There was a time when I deleted you from Facebook and was like, “I’m never talking to you again,” and I was super pissed at you.

Emily: And I was like, “You have every right to do that.”

Stef: It was actually maddening how cool you were about allowing me to be upset.

Emily: I was just like, how pissed would I be? I’d put myself in your shoes and be like, “That bitch, I don’t want to talk to her.”

Stef: You gave me so much room to be mopey and emotional and you’re not a very outwardly emotional person… So when you were dealing with actually very real, valid things to be upset about, you were a little stunned I think, but you also gave me full license to be a pissed off mess…. which I appreciate, because I need a lot of room to be a pissed off mess.

Emily: I mean, I have some experience with people being emotional in my life…

Stef: What did you learn from our relationship?

Emily: I definitely learned that I don’t think I’m necessarily good enough at communicating to try to do multiple relationships at a time? If I’m not emotionally expressive enough to deal with my own feelings, then I shouldn’t let them get into complicated situations –

Stef: I mean, as background, you had dated other people outside of your relationship with Daniel but you always kind of cut them off when it got to a point where that person wanted to be in a legit relationship with you. You didn’t ever let anyone get that… close, I think?

Emily: That’s the case with most relationships overall for me, not just in terms of dating multiple people.

Stef: But in our case we really didn’t think it was going to be a thing; you came to New York and I was like, “I’m probably gonna hook up with this girl and it’s gonna be awesome.” I did not expect it to be this very intense emotional thing that happened immediately.

Emily: Yeah, that was weird.

Stef: It was crazy! I rearranged my entire schedule – you rearranged your entire school schedule to stay longer… and lied to me about it?!?!?!

Emily: I didn’t want you to be like, “Omigod, what a crazy thing to do,” so I was just like, “No, of course, this is completely doable that I just changed everything about my trip, no problem.”

Stef: You didn’t come clean about that until years later. In retrospect, yes, that was a totally crazy thing to do.

Emily: Thank you. (laughs) I’m aware.

We have never taken a lot of pictures together but we did go to brunch with Carmen Rios once.

Stef: It was so much so fast and we were both really stunned by it. Nobody saw that coming.

Emily: We’re both pretty cynical people, I think, so we were just like, “Uh, what?!?! What happened to me being the makeout intern?!?”

Stef: No, it wasn’t what I had signed on for at all.

Emily: No, that wasn’t in my contract of… employment or whatever interns get.

Stef: This next question doesn’t really make any sense in this context, but what do you miss about me?

Emily: I mean, we do talk every day. I guess you’re correct in that doesn’t make the most sense.

Stef: We’re definitely in a better place now than we were in for a really long time after that.

Emily: Yeah, we’ve had very honest and good conversations since then, so even though I still feel really shitty that I put you through a lot of pain, I’m really grateful that we’re in the place we’re in now.

Stef: The last time I was in DC when we were just like, hanging out with Daniel, watching Russian cartoons?! There was a moment where… I mean, I never would have… I just really wanted to punch him in the face for such a long time. I never anticipated becoming buddies with him or enjoying spending time with him, never in a million years.

Emily: This is such an incredible example of us being mature adults, but I don’t really know how we did it so I don’t know how to replicate it.

Stef: To be fair, at that time he really did deserve to be punched in the face.

Emily: Oh, for sure. The other key part about that is that he and I had also broken up by that point too, it was just a lot of exes and pal-ness that was just… odd.

Stef: You guys transitioned from partners to friends really easily.

Emily: He’s just like, a part of my family.

Stef: Yeah, you’re going to be in each others’ lives forever… But I’m not really sure how we made that transition in such a way that it ended up being this comfortable.

Emily: I feel like honestly, the time I was able to be most emotionally open and actually talk about feelings was after things ended. I was like, at the very least, I owe it to you to put myself in those hard places and actually have to talk about things, which isn’t easy for me at all… And if I can’t do that, what kind of friend am I? I’m a scumbag.

Stef: You’re a wonderful scumbag.

Emily: I realize I don’t come off well in this story.

Stef: I mean, everyone was – you especially were dealing with a lot at once, and I just kind of got caught in the crosshairs. When I tell other people this story and I have to explain who you are to me and how you came into my life, it always has to come back to that story, but I think it was just the worst timing, the worst circumstances, nobody’s fault. I sometimes wonder what it would have been like if we’d met at a different time with different circumstances, but it did end up working out.

Emily: You never know.

Stef: And I definitely learned a lot about the level of emotional communication I need from another person.

Emily: I definitely learned about the level of emotional communication I need to do to be a person who interacts with other people… That was a helpful thing to learn more about. Not that I’m an expert at this point.

Stef: You’re doin’ great. At this juncture, would you invite me to your wedding?

Emily: I mean, if I believed in weddings, obviously.

Stef: Yeah, it would be fine… When you have your “yo, same*” wedding.

Emily: That’s a confusing one to explain, but yes.

Stef: Well your opinion of marriage in general is so low that if you ever did it would be the most casual…

Emily: Yeah for sure, a courthouse and beers in the backyard kind of thing. Not just beers because I know you don’t like beers. There would be a lot of vodka and whatever. Picklebacks.

Stef: Picklebacks! Perfect.

Emily: I would invite you as a guest to someone else’s wedding which I think is an even higher level of friendship.

Stef: Yeah, that’s better. Um, do you have any questions for me?

Emily: How do you think we reached this point of friendship and not… resentment?

Stef: I mean, I resented things for a long time, I’m not gonna lie. It was difficult to come around and I think that only because you were so patient with me and gave me space.. I did at times just rage at you. I would just rail about how pissed I was at the Daniel situation and all these things that had happened in Argentina, things that didn’t even involve me, and I also went through a lot of very unsatisfying attempts at relationships with other people that ended badly and made me feel terrible. You were very patient and always validated my rage, but never actively tried to be a jerk, and I think you were actually very sensitive.

Emily: That’s helpful.

Stef: It took time. Because we live in different cities – you were finally on the east coast, which was infuriating.

Emily: That BITCH.

Stef: You moved out to DC, and if we’d wanted to do some kind of long distance situation, DC to New York is not that bad, but it just wasn’t in the cards anymore and it took a lot of getting used to. Eventually it actually was fine.

Emily: I mean, time heals all wounds or whatever but I never took it for granted that you would want to be friends with me.

Stef: You’re really impossible to stay mad at, is the other thing.

Emily: I don’t know about that.

Stef: I’m glad it eventually worked out.

Emily: I also think your relationship with Mila helped a bit, in terms of you being able to talk about your relationship with her and having this other intense situation… Nothing really serious had happened since we’d ended things, and I was like, is this the new status quo? I mean, I can’t speak for you.

Stef: I mean, nothing helps that terrifying, intense Scorpio focus that I have like getting wrapped up in someone else, which I hate.

Emily: I feel like that’s when we started talking more seriously about our friendship and what that meant to us, when you two started dating.

Stef: That’s fair. And it was weird to talk to you about other people.

Emily: …I feel like we haven’t been very funny, we’ve mostly talked about really serious sad things.

Stef: Do you have any knock-knock jokes you want to throw in there?

Emily: I think it’s important that we mention what our first conversation was about.

Stef: Oh yeah. So before camp, I had dated someone with your name –

Emily: First and last.

Stef: Yes, exactly. So when I first saw your name on the camper list, I was very curious to see who that was. When I realized that this person was also the camper I was actively avoiding and even hiding from because I thought you were really attractive, I was horrified. After camp, we ended up having a conversation about “Werewolf Bar Mitzvah….”

Emily: An important thing in all of our lives.

Stef: I sent you a Facebook message about “Werewolf Bar Mitzvah” and that’s really where our romance began.

Emily: I think it’s very fitting.

Stef: It’s a tale as old as time.

Emily: It’s basically the epitome of modern romance.

Stef: We like to think it was our song.

Emily: Exactly.

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* – Emily’s imagined extremely casual vows at her imagined extremely casual wedding, which she has no intentions of ever having.

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Interview With My Ex-Girlfriend: Marni

Welcome to Interviews With My Ex-Girlfriend in which Autostraddle writers get back in touch with their ex-girlfriends to ask them Five Simple Questions:

1. How long did we date?
2. Why did we break up?
3. What did you learn from our relationship?
4. What do you miss most about me?
5. Would you invite me to your wedding (why/why not)?

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I met Marni for the first time at a GO Magazine Party in New York City in April of 2010. We both had girlfriends. She’d been a longtime reader of my blog and website and wanted to meet me — but she wasn’t a complete stranger since she’d been internet friends with Laneia for a few months at that point. Then, because they all lived in Brookyln, she’d become real life friends with Taylor and Kip, who also worked for Autostraddle back then. Marni and I clicked right away and hung out a few times before she moved to Oakland in June. By the end of the year we both lived in California and were dating.

I’d first started talking to Marni about my idea for A-Camp that summer, before my move to California. She had lots of camp experience and was very into the concept. The dream became a reality in April 2012, with Marni and my friend Robin Roemer as co-directors. At that time Marni and I lived in the same building, but different apartments. We moved in together a few days before our second A-Camp in September. Because it wouldn’t be an interview with one of my exes if there wasn’t some kind of business involved, right? AM I RIGHT, LADIES?

So, last week I interviewed Marni on the phone while she made rum balls, whatever the fuck those are. The original interview was 15,000 words ’cause we talked for an hour and a half, but don’t worry, I cut it in half for you!

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Riese: Okay! How long did we date?

Marni: Three and a half years, give or take? I would say, wouldn’t you?

Riese: So November 2010 ’til —

Marni: Oh I would’ve said October!

Riese: I would’ve said October! But whenever I told people October, you always insisted it was November. “Not until Thanksgiving!”

Marni: Right, because that was a full month after I’d broken up with my previous ex, who I’d continued to live with after the break-up under horrible circumstances. It wasn’t ’til I moved out that we were free to fly.

Riese: Right, that’s when we were allowed to start officially dating.

Marni: I think it was around when Haviland and Ashley came up for Thanksgiving —

Riese: SEE!

Marni: Things started out murky because although I’d broken up with Cordelia* [not her real name] I was still trying to extricate myself from what had become our kind of scary not super-safe living situation. And things had already gotten kind of bad so —

Riese: Yes, because she took my favorite books out into the street and doused them with a watering can.

Marni: That’s the only thing that was doused with water, but other things happened that were equally or more horrifying. I may or may not have been doused with water, I don’t recall —

Riese: You were attacked with a knife!

Marni: It’s blocked out.

Riese: We told each other that we loved each other before we became official girlfriends.

Marni: Seems out of order.

Riese: Well, I mean, what is “order,” really?

Marni: Okay, so three and a half years?

Riese: Yeah, fall of 2010 to Summer of 2014.

Marni: Which I think is a significant chunk of time where we were in our lives, too, like from late 20s to early 30s for both of us.

Riese: Autostraddle was very young and poor and I worked constantly.

Marni: We met because of Autostraddle, I was one of the first commenters.

Riese: It was like, just you and a few other commenters and people who worked here. If we got 30 comments it was a busy day.

Marni: I’d started reading your blog, Autowin, through Gawker, and then read your L Word recaps so when you launched Autostraddle I commented like I’VE BEEN READING YOU FOREVER LALALALA I’VE BEEN HERE THE WHOLE TIME! or something dumb. Then I moved to New York to be with Cordelia, we’d been long-distance, and was commenting all the time. Then we both moved from New York to Oakland for separate reasons around the same time. I moved in the summer, and and as soon as you got here in the fall it was ON.

Riese: We were talking constantly leading up to it, like G-chatting all day and spending 3-4 hours a day on the phone, all summer.

Marni: Yeah we’d be up til like 4 AM on the phone.

Riese: The worst is that sometimes I would take an Ambien and still be on the phone with you so… much of that is gone.

Marni: It’s gone for me anyway.

Riese: Yeah cause you don’t have a memory.

Marni: Yeah I’m a goldfish.

Riese: Then I got to Oakland and was sort of in denial that it was happening.

Marni: I had this whole mess I was in. You kinda precipitated the thing I had been working on which was ending this relationship I was in. You got to town and I was like “OK!”

Riese: Cordelia wouldn’t let you hang out with me one night, so it was like you had two options, one was “not hang out with me” and the other was “break up with your girlfriend.”

Marni: Well, sure, but it was bigger than just one night. I was like, okay, I’m officialy gonna put an end to the abuse that I’ve been dealing with for years now. I went home, ended it, and called you. You showed up and I’ll never forget it — you were like, “I feel like all you needed to end this relationship was a ride.” And it’s true! It was true literally and it was also true figuratively. It was like all I needed was a ride to get out. For someone to come and pick me up and take me away. And that was all. It was as simple as that.

Riese: Yup.

Marni: And then it was over. I mean it wasn’t over because it continued for another month of horribleness because I didn’t have anywhere to go and I didn’t have money and I didn’t have a job and I had to sort that out all at once. And then I got out, and over time, we became US.

Riese: While you were still living with Cordelia, I’d come over to your apartment every day while she was at work and we’d work on Autostraddle and we smoked so much pot.

Marni: I smoked so much pot then.

Riese: I was NOT a day smoker, you know? I had no idea what was going on, I’m like, I’m in Oakland, I’m staying with Taylor and Kip, I don’t know where I’m gonna live, I’m broke, at least three of my friends are mad at me, I didn’t pack any bras, I’m not sure why I’m here, so I was like, yeah let’s roll another joint.

Marni: I was in the same boat. Why am I here, in the United States — ’cause I’m from Canada, for the record.

Riese: We spent a month editing that Judith Butler thing. It was like… smoking pot, drama, editing, Scrabble.

Marni: Yeah. Pot, drama and Scrabble. If that’s not my late twenties, I don’t know what is.

Riese: Yup, exactly, and I was staying on a couch.

Marni: So was I!

Riese: Yeah you were also on the couch.

Marni: In my own house.

Riese: It was intense to be crashing with friends through all that, but Taylor and Kip were so nice and supportive through all the drama. Then we were on the hill by where you had orchestra and I said I felt like we were aliens, and that’s when “pop-up pod” started.

Marni: We were just like a little pod of people and we would just pop up wherever and we could take it on the road and be a pop-up pod.

Riese: Where did the “pod” part come from?

Marni: I think the pod part came from we’re “two peas in a pod” and this is our pod that is now for some reason in Oakland, which makes no sense for anyone’s narrative.

Riese: Neither of us had any ties there — no family, no job, two friends.

Marni: Who had just come from New York and had no real reason to be there either.

Riese: Which became evident when they both eventually left! We tried to make other friends. You had other friends eventually. Maybe this should lead us into the next question.

Riese: Which is… “Why did we break up?”

Marni: I guess the short answer is that neither of us were happy. For different reasons.

Riese: Yeah.

Marni: My own reasons were apparent to me but your reasons weren’t as apparent to you.

Riese: It’s weird ’cause I consider myself very self-aware, but apparently not! I remember at camp in May 2013, talking to Julia, Laneia and Vanessa, about how I felt depressed and so lonely — I knew it had something to do with us, but I didn’t think “we should break up,” and I didn’t think you wanted that either. I thought “we should move to LA where we have friends” or “Marni should figure out her stuff and get happier and then bring that happiness home to me.”

Marni: It wasn’t misguided. I had plenty of other reasons why I wasn’t fully happy. But we’d lost that THING — whatever it was we had in the start. When we got together, you were starting Autostraddle and working on it constantly, I was trying to figure myself out, we were in this uncertain place together.

Riese: In the beginning, like the first year and a half, we communicated CONSTANTLY, which blows my mind now. We had apparently TONS to say to each other and then by the end we had nothing to say and didn’t seem to desire each other’s company too much? At one point going even like a few hours without talking to each other was torture. I think some of the change is that in the start of a relationship you have a different self, you’re paying close attention to each other’s needs, getting to know each other, trying out each other’s things to do. For a solid year and a half we were really good — and also really healthy? Pretty good for each other and to each other at first. Although we did drink a lot of bourbon. And then…

Marni: Later we got into a pattern. I had my 9-to-5 job, a certain amount of monotony in my own life, and I didn’t know how to change it. You had your ways. I’d come home and you’d work and I’d cook dinner. That’s when I got really into cooking!

Riese: Was when you were feeding me?

Marni: That was my THING. Like “I’m gonna go to the store and I’m gonna plan these intricate dinners” and then you’d be up working all night. I’d go to bed, you were still on your computer. We both had these worlds we were in, and our worlds stopped intersecting at a certain point. I mean other than A-Camp.

Riese: Which is a pretty big intersection.

Marni: I wonder how things would’ve worked out if we hadn’t built A-Camp together. “Working together” is an arena in which we have done very well. Plus it was a goal outside ourselves to focus on, so we weren’t looking directly at this thing in our immediate lives that was also not perfect.

Riese: Also we didn’t like to do the same things.

Marni: That’s true.

Riese: I just thought, “I’m an introvert, you’re an extrovert so you go out and do things and I stay home!” It’s important to have lives outside of each other! But I didn’t realize ’til my next relationship that no, like it’s definitely important to have separate lives but it’s also important to have at least like 2-3 things you both enjoy doing outside of the home, yannow?

Marni: Mhm. It was kind of a drag. That the things I was interested in doing were not the things you were interested in doing.

Riese: Right. Like sitting around and drinking beer in the afternoon.

Marni: Like social gatherings or going out — at the time I’d go out to gay parties like Hella Gay or Ships in the Night or go dancing and you weren’t into that. It was fine, like I wanted to go out and do it, and if you didn’t want to, then I was happier to go by myself.

Riese: You’d just come out of this super possessive controlling relationship where you weren’t supposed to do anything without Cordelia, so it was probably a relief when I came along and was like GO FORTH DO WHATEVER YOU WANT. But like — I like going out! I like going out dancing and drinking like… once a month. I didn’t like the BART though, that felt like too much. I also feel like you’re super into sitting on the lawn with your beer watching live music. Or we’d go to the used bookstore and you’d wait outside smoking. I didn’t want you WITH me, like following me around in the bookstore — that would drive me nuts. But I do prefer somebody who’s also interested in looking at books.

Marni: I did get to a point where I was answering questions like “Where’s Riese?” a lot and eventually those questions started making me sad. “Why isn’t she here?” Like I respected your reasons and it’s not like I thought you weren’t a good partner or a good person. What made me sad eventually was that I felt like we just weren’t quite matched up as well as I’d thought we were in the beginning. I would’ve liked for you to be there, but the way that you would’ve been there would’ve been if you were like, a different person. It wasn’t just like I needed your physical body there, I wanted you to want to be there. And I’m sure you felt that way about other things for me.

Riese: No, definitely. Also probably in the beginning — we were both going out. We did also still have Aja, M, Taylor and Kip there, which helped. We both really wanted to make new friends!

Riese: But then I was like EH! I couldn’t find my place in the Bay Area scene as well as I did in New York, or even just while visiting Los Angeles. Ultimately, I just didn’t click with the people you’d clicked with. But also… you’re very accepting of people and letting people be themselves, which is great for like 75% of people. But what I realized in my next relationship is I need someone who sometimes pushes me out of my comfort zone. Abby would be like, “I really want you to come to this thing with me, we’ll have fun!” and so I would go and we did have fun! Or, if we needed something at Whole Foods, you’d always run out alone so I didn’t have to put shoes and pants on, but she would just be like, “put your shoes on, you’re coming to Whole Foods with me” and we’d scamper across the street and those little things were important too. Although I suppose an invitation is also a kind of promise for an experience to hold a certain value.

Until fall of 2014, I had way too many responsibilities at Autostraddle for just one person. That situation got less severe after Heather started and we launched A+. But also — I think I was more willing to get up and go because of what I’d seen happen in my relationship with you. I’d always been resistant to the attached-at-the-hip-lesbian-couple model, I like a lot of space and consider “lots of space” an indicator of relationship health.  But through our breakup I was forced to consider the value in sharing more space, too, and I opened myself up to that type of partnership in a more deliberate way. And I realized that you actually can be a “team” and do a lot of things together without losing your independence or being attached at the hip. It’s tricky, like, do I really wanna be with someone who pushes me to do things that I’m not always sure I want to do? I guess I do!

Marni: Maybe if I’d just bullied you more?

Riese: No! That’s not what I’m saying at all. Part of what I really loved about you at the time was that you let me be me… even when me wasn’t really correct. I got really lazy with you. I think that sometimes I need someone else to make the decisions and boss me around, ’cause that’s what I do all day at work.

Marni: Interesting. I did eventually stop assuming… there did come a part where I assumed you wouldn’t wanna go to a thing, I stopped even bothering to ask you.

Riese: Right. And this was all new — I’d never moved to a new place where I had no friends. In all my prior relationships, I had heaps of my own friends, and like with Alex we had a huge network of mutual friends. It wasn’t like that in Oakland, I never made my own friends. I think the only times I did anything social without you were when people were visiting from out of town. And then it snowballed to where we weren’t doing ANYTHING together.

Marni: Yeah and we became more isolated from each other.

Riese: And I think by the time we broke up it was like… we hadn’t really hung out in a really long time.

Marni: Sometimes we’d make efforts like, “let’s go into the city and walk around the neighborhood!” But the things that we wanted to do in those neighborhoods didn’t match up. Like I wanted to eat and drink and you wanted to like go to museums. And I don’t hate museums, you know.

Riese: But you don’t LIKE museums.

Marni: It’s not my thing that like if I go to a place and am like, “Where’s the museum?”

Riese: Whereas my #1 thought is, WHERE IS THE MUSEUM?!! IS THERE AN ANTIQUE STORE ON THIS BLOCK?

Marni: Like when I took you to Hawaii on my work trip, I was like “let’s chill out at this beach with a drink and a book and just go in the water and tan all day,” and you were like, “I wanna go to the museum about how the United States fucked over the Hawaiian people!”

Riese: I did! It was a great museum. I like chilling out on the beach too, but in moderation. I think we have different energies in that way, like I’m more of an explorer and you’re more of a chiller-outer.

Marni: Everyone should go to that museum and read back on the post you wrote about Hawaii ’cause there’s some really important stuff in there.

Riese: Thank you for your support.

Marni: That’s also the post where you said that I’m up for anything that doesn’t involve olives or walking up a hill.

Riese: That’s true!

Marni: Which remains half-true.

Riese: And then we broke up and like three days later we both wanted to walk up the same hill with different people.

Marni: What?

Riese: I was like “I’m going hiking with Abby at Anthony Chabot Park today,” and you were like “I’m going hiking with Kyle at Anthony Chabot Park today” and I was like, “Well, one of us isn’t going to Anthony Chabot Park today.”

Marni: We have impeccable timing, the two of us.

Riese: But it was a weird moment because I was like, “why didn’t we do this with each other?” And it was also like “well, I guess this is why we broke up, because we didn’t.”

Marni: Yeah it was like, well if we both wanna go hiking, or we would go hiking, but we wouldn’t go with each other… then that speaks to why we broke up.

Riese: Yeah. Exactly.

Marni: Like after we broke up I was like, “She’s gonna start eating dark meat and all the other things that I could never cook, like full fat milk products, meat with bones —”

Riese: I didn’t!

Marni: That’s a thing that always hurts, the why not with me? Even though we broke up for all the reasons, when you see the person you were with doing things you never did together like; “You wouldn’t do that thing with me, but you’re doing it now… so maybe it wasn’t the thing. It was me.” Like when you can isolate the variable in that way?

Riese: Yup, exactly.

Riese: Next question: what did you learn from our relationship?

Marni: I think my biggest takeaway is probably the value of having an Amazon pre-scheduled delivery of paper towels?

Riese: I’m glad that resonated with you.

Marni: Which I have yet to set up, I haven’t figured out how to set it up myself.

Riese: This is why we broke up, ’cause you would’ve never set it up.

Marni: Maybe that’s where my current relationship is going ’cause I keep saying I’m gonna set it up. Okay. I did an undergrad degree in Women’s Studies in what’s the most progressive/radical women’s studies in colleges in Canada, Concordia, but I never went to grad school. So I had this sort of theory-head knowledge and women’s studies geekery floating around in my brain BUT I feel like three years with you was sort of like getting a master’s degree in Women’s Studies.

Riese: So you’re taking this really literally, like what INFORMATION did I obtain —

Marni: I learned a lot from you during our relationship! I still do, I still read the things you write and I respect you intellectually tremendously … I think that you’ve been one of the most influential people I’ve ever known in terms of how I think about the world. Then all these brilliant people you surround yourself with who I was exposed to because of you. And you’re CONSTANTLY trying to learn more, especially around things like, ways that Autostraddle was maybe fucking up in the beginning or finding blind spots and filling them in and you’re learning and accepting things you hadn’t quite been doing as well as you could, reading everything you could. I’d hear about it and I’d hear you playing out these intellectual conflicts and then with other people. It was so valuable.

What I learned FROM our relationship, as cheesy as it sounds, is that sometimes when you really love something, you have to let it go.

Riese: Mhm.

Marni: I think became very very true for me because I loved you very much — I still do — but it was just so obvious that this wasn’t working as a long term indefinite thing anymore. I kept putting it off ’cause I wasn’t sure. I didn’t wanna make the wrong choice and regret it. I did learn that the end doesn’t have to be the end of the world, though. As soon as we accepted that this was ending, we were able to move forward in a way that we hadn’t moved forward — either of us — in a long time, and that was really important. Like when I came in to have that conversation with you when I knew I was about to break up with you and I sat down —

Riese: And I was like “Can we talk?” because I was about to ask you if we could be poly!

Marni: Oh yeah, right! You had this whole other thing going on at the time inwardly that I didn’t know was happening.

Riese: And you sat down and I was like, “I feel like you are so far away.”

Marni: …and I said to you, “I feel like I’m torturing you.” It was sort of true. I knew we weren’t happy, and I knew you were hanging on and maybe still thought it could be a forever thing, even if it wasn’t perfect.

Riese: Also I think I was terrified of having to like, DATE.

Marni: Right, and so was I!

Riese: You kinda already had someone lined up. If we’re being honest.

Marni: I mean you kind of did too.

Riese: Yeah. Right… but I wasn’t really conscious of that at the time, that it would become what it became.

Marni: I felt like I’d been torturing you and also myself. Then when you get to the other side, the question is “what was I so afraid of?” When you get to the other end of that scary thing, things keep going. We’re still friends, we’re still working together, we’re probably in a much healthier place than we were —

Riese: Well, you are. I was! But I’m in a kind of angry place right now with my life.

Marni: Yeah. I guess it’s like… when you know what you have to do, you have to just do it and stop wasting the other person’s time. Because you’re wasting your own time too!

Riese: You know there’s that Stephen Dunn poem and the wife says Why did you leave me? and he says I was already gone. / I just brought my body with me. That’s how I felt about you those last six months! Like you’d already left.

Marni: Yeah, and that’s true. I wasn’t there anymore. I was there, but I wasn’t emotionally there —

Riese: You’d either go out for drinks after work, or go to the gym with your friends, or you’d come home, and you’d go outside, and you’d smoke and drink and be on your phone for hours.

Marni: And you were inside on your computer.

Riese: I was usually talking to Vanessa or Laneia. You weren’t my primary relationship anymore. We weren’t each other’s primary relationships anymore.

Marni: We were both seeking out friendships elsewhere and just going through the motions. Well also I do think that we cared very deeply for each other.

Riese: Yeah for sure.

Marni: It was more like we’re just not… we’d actually already transitioned into the mode that made more sense to us. It wasn’t romantic, but we still lived together.

Riese: Also a lot of it was age, I wanted to have kids one day. Marriage wasn’t on the table for us and hadn’t gotten any closer to the table for the past two years. The clock was ticking! And it seemed like breaking up with you and starting all over with someone else would make that impossible, so I just said to myself like, “Maybe this is what a long term relationship is? You stop hanging out, eventually?” I didn’t know what anything was SUPPOSED to look like. Not from my own parents or really anybody’s parents.

Marni: When you wrote that thing about leaving California and moving back to Michigan, planning your trip, and you said something like, “I didn’t know what it was supposed to feel like, and now I do.” Like “now I’m in a different relationship and can see the ways I am happy that I wasn’t before and I didn’t even realize.”

Riese: Yes, that’s true. That is how I felt.

Marni: As scary as breaking up is… you can’t know what’s on the other side, all you know is that moment and if you know it’s not right you can’t waste everybody’s time. You don’t have unlimited time! I knew you wanted to start a family. We weren’t in our twenties anymore with all the time in the world. You needed to have the information to make a decision for yourself, and I was withholding information from you about my level of happiness and commitment while I tried to figure out my own thing and that’s not fair, to have somebody else beholden to you when they have their own shit to do.

Riese: Nope.

Marni: And I own that. But I did wait until after camp.

Riese: Congratulations.

Marni: I wasn’t saying that in a gloating way! I was intentional about the timing ’cause I felt like it’d be unfair to both of us to break up and then go into camp.

Riese: Yeah, but sometimes you can’t really do anything about the timing.

Marni: There’s always gonna be one more thing — that wedding at the end of the month, concert tickets. But also it was CAMP, and based on our two roles at camp… I thought we could stick it out for a little while longer.

Riese: Yeah. Right.

Marni: We saw how well that worked out.

Riese: I feel like when you know it’s not working, you at least have to talk about it, because I was so sad all year and I didn’t know why, I didn’t know what was happening with you, you know?

Marni: I hated reading that in that piece. It’s a thing people say a lot, I hated reading it, hearing it, seeing it. It was true. I was scared, I was a fucking coward, I didn’t wanna make the wrong choice, I was second-guessing myself, not trusting my own feelings. I was so scared of being wrong and doing the wrong thing that I put it off for longer than I should’ve for both of us. Not that it was all on me, like maybe if I hadn’t, you would’ve.

Riese: I think that’s what’s funny about how it ended up shaking out, was that we both saw a problem, and I wanted to talk to you about being poly and then you broke up with me and I was like OKAY welp I’m not gonna even say my thing.

Like for most of 2013, I’d been like, “Okay, this is my relationship, we live together, it’s fine, things feel off right now, but things will get better once I have less work and more money. So I’m gonna put THAT over THERE, and then right HERE I have my work and THAT needs attention.” I wasn’t paying attention.

Marni: Yeah and I definitely felt it, that you weren’t paying attention anymore and that you were absent. That had effects on me. For sure, like I felt like I was…. you were in your world and I just lived in it.

Riese: Yeah.

Marni: And cooked in it.

Riese: Right, and then it was 2014 and you checked out, and it became such a stressful year for me, work-wise, because we’d just started paying all our writers, we were in this contract selling ads with [redacted website] that was a nightmare for me and Alex. I was so stressed and sad. But I hadn’t been fair to you, leading up to that. You were such a good caretaker, even when I didn’t deserve it! I don’t remember what you’d just done, but I do remember sitting in the bathroom one day thinking, “Nobody else will ever take care of you as well as Marni does, so whatever happens, hang on to her.”

Marni: I did at some point start feeling a little taken for granted for the caretakerness. Like the cleaning and the cooking. Well, you did do most of the cleaning.

Riese: I did. But it was fair for you to feel that way.

Marni: But I do like planning meals and cooking.

Riese: What you learned from our relationship is that you like making dinner.

Marni: I learned that I really love food and cooking and I’ve become sort of an autodidact in that realm in the years following. No, the main thing I learned is not to waste anybody’s time.

Riese: Also we never fought.

Marni: Yeah, we weren’t in like a tempestuous relationship whre we could be like THAT’S IT! IT’S OVER! SLAM! There wasn’t any one thing to point to and be like okay NOW we’re breaking up.

Riese: Honestly, what I learned was that working all the time is not okay. It makes me a bad girlfriend and a bad worker and a really boring writer. I’d really let myself just go dead inside, and I missed the world, and I wanted to go out and meet its people and climb its hills and drive and fly all over it. I’d gotten into a rut and I got yanked out of it and that was a huge wake-up call that made me a much better person in the long run.

So question number Four: “what do you miss the most about me”?

Marni: Honestly what I miss the most about you is your sense of things. Like I can still text you or read your writing, but I appreciated daily access to the way you think about and articulate and see things. I miss hearing your opinion, you had a way of thinking about things that I wouldn’t think of. I often find myself wondering what you’d think about a thing — like, most recently, after Ghost Ship. I was wondering inwardly like, when is Riese gonna write about this? Nobody else is writing this thing that I want to read about what we’re all thinking! And then you wrote it and I was like, “there it is.”

Riese: It went viral, actually.

Marni: Did it?

Riese: Which surprised me, but it was nice to have that happen because I haven’t written very much this year.

Marni: No, you haven’t.

Riese: So I’m glad I could do that.

Marni: I also miss being as connected as I was to the Autostraddle community, like there’s still A-Camp. But when we met, I was the most intricately involved that I ever was — editing and writing. I miss my involvement that came from our connection. So. WHAT DO YOU MISS ABOUT ME?

Riese: In terms of how you were as a girlfriend — you’re very patient, and you make so much room for other people’s emotional realities, you know? I’ve never been with someone where I felt so safe emotionally, even if I was being dramatic, you were patient and understanding, your only goal was getting to the problem, solving the problem, or making things feel better. Like a week into our relationship, you came over to console me within ten minutes when I was upset about a fight with Laneia! When I was upset about YOU BREAKING UP WITH ME you were there for me, you know?

Marni: You miss being taken care of?

Riese: No, that’s not what I was talking about at all! And anyhow, no! It’s weird because except for you and Alex, all my relationships have been me being the caretaker or an even split. Obviously I’m so grateful for what you did — and Autostraddle should also be grateful! — but in the long term it wasn’t healthy for either of us to be so unbalanced. Anyhow BACK ON TOPIC, you just have so much empathy.  Like I remember when Cordelia was arrested at the airport for shoplifting and you were so upset and worried for her, and I was like How can you care so much about this person who tried to stab you with a knife?? And you were like, I’m just so sad thinking about her in a jail cell… and I was like WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU.

Marni: She didn’t try to *stab* me.

Riese: Also, even through the end, you were always cheering for me and supporting me, you’d work whatever event with me, you really wanted to see me succeed.

Riese: Also you knew stuff, from your life and academically, and were good to talk shit out with. I valued your opinion. You were interested in LGBT stuff and women’s rights and gender stuff and you were really clear-headed — that was kind of how it all began, on G-Chat, talking about these issues. You were fair, and able to balance like, “yeah this might be a risky thing to say, but it’s important to say.” You’re an extraordinary editor, too. You taught me a lot I didn’t know ’cause I had no academic background in this stuff.

Marni: Well that’s a high compliment!

Riese: Real talk; I can’t imagine how long it would’ve taken to edit the Judith Butler piece without you, ’cause Laneia and I were clueless on those topics. Okay, last question: would you invite me to your wedding, why or why not?

Marni: I don’t think either of us would’ve been waiting for the invitation in the mail.

Riese: I did feel weird about it when I was engaged and we were making an invite list, like would we invite all our friends but not Marni? I guess so.

Marni: I don’t have an invite list for a wedding at the moment so I don’t know if you’re on it. When I think about that I don’t think “oh for sure I would not invite Riese to the wedding.” So I can’t really say one way or another.

Riese: I probably wouldn’t go.

Marni: Well just to say… I’ll send you an invite, and then you can RSVP like “I can’t make it.”

Riese: No, I’m not gonna RSVP. You’re gonna have to ask me about it a few times.

Marni: I’ll just get married at camp.

Riese: You’ll be like “do you know yet about the wedding?” and I’ll be like “ehhh I dunno I’m still figuring it out.” So you guys can have “Riese (Plus One)” with a question mark on your list for as long as possible. I just wanna really drag it out so then when you ask me for the last time I can be like… “I feel like I’m torturing you.”

Marni: That would be perfect. Anyhow, I assume the SPIRIT of the question is, “are we amicable/friends enough that a wedding would not be dramatic,” and I think we are. It wouldn’t be outrageous or offensive or a heavy weighted thing.

Riese: Right, like there’s no leftover feelings or hard feelings.

Marni: Is that the end of the interview?

Riese: Yup.

Marni: How do you feel?

Riese: I feel like we processed our relationship.

Marni: Like we didn’t do that enough times before.

Riese: Well did we? We didn’t talk about things!

Marni: We didn’t talk about things during, that’s true. We didn’t sit down and talk about things or go to therapy but after we broke up we talked about some things.

Riese: I think part of what made the break-up easier is that when I got home that day after Abby and I got lost in the woods, it all kinda hit me at once… I’m so glad we broke up. It wasn’t right and hadn’t been for a long time. I still had to do the thing I always do where I re-play the whole relationship in my head through a new lens and overanalyze every interaction. But it was very easy to see everything clearly. You’d noticed something that I hadn’t noticed because I didn’t really know better, and wasn’t paying attention. So I was devastated in the moment, but okay pretty soon afterwards.

Marni: I think that speaks to the fact that it was what needed to happen.

Riese: Like I was sort of living a lie, and then it was over and I felt in control of my life again. Not like you’d been controlling, but because I’d checked out.

Marni: Right.

Riese: Those three months after we broke up but were still living together were pretty awful though. By the time you moved out we were like AT ODDS. We made it all that time without fighting at all, and then we fought a lot!

Marni: We didn’t have a huge blowout fight that ended our relationship, neither of us were “in the wrong.” But in those three months it went downhill really fast, even for us, who’d had the least dramatic and upsetting breakup you could imagine.

Riese: We somehow managed to be at each other’s throats.

Marni: I mean, we lived together, the real estate market was crazy, we couldn’t just like, move out and find a room.

Riese: And you were dating someone who had children, and I was dating someone who was basically homeless.

Marni: So neither of us could like go to another person’s place. It was not ideal. So maybe there’s nothing we could’ve done differently. It just… like you’re still friends and still care about them but you can’t really help them heal even if that’s the person you’ve always gone to for healing. The source of the conflict can’t be the resolution anymore, and that was hard. So… is there anything else you wanna touch on before we end this?

Riese: Uh, nope.

Marni: Any follow-up questions, any addendums?

Riese: I have none.

Marni: Has this been okay for you, has it been upsetting? Has there been any part of this interview that has surprised you or upset you?

Riese: SEE????

Interview With My Ex-Girlfriend: MA

Welcome to Interviews With My Ex-Girlfriend in which Autostraddle writers get back in touch with their ex-girlfriends to ask them Five Simple Questions:

1. How long did we date?
2. Why did we break up?
3. What did you learn from our relationship?
4. What do you miss most about me?
5. Would you invite me to your wedding (why/why not)?

---

I met MA (which is actually what everyone calls her, “em-ey,” and is not an attempt to shield her identity) in 2004, two weeks before I started my freshman year in college. I’d arrived early to school for pre-season training with the soccer team, and because our dorms weren’t available yet the rest of the girls on the team had to house the incoming freshman. I was assigned to stay in her apartment.

With the aggressive push of a schedule that required us to be around each other every day for at least eight hours a day, we quickly went from being friends to something else, although I wasn’t totally sure what. I knew she’d dated women before and deep down I think I knew exactly what I was doing, but I wasn’t ready or even aware of myself enough to admit that what I was experiencing was a crush. What resulted was months and months of agonizing sleepovers. So many sleepovers. Every night sleepovers! I’d blame it on my roommate, who admittedly was terrible, and then show up at her apartment probably to watch The L Word and have her rub my back. Totally normal friend stuff.

Even for the most repressed of gay people, this kind of repeated behavior reaches a breaking point. We started dating months later and were together on and off (and on and off) for two years. After we broke up we still had to see each other every day and so we maybe we weren’t the nicest we could have been to each other, but a decade later we’ve gotten to a place where I can text her, “Hey, can I interview you about where our relationship failed and put it on the internet?” and without follow up questions she texts back, “Sure, let me know when.” Here’s a transcript of our G-chat.

Erin: ‪Hieeeee‬.

MA: ‪Hey hey‬.

Erin: ‪You ready? I have The Bachelorette on in the background so I’m In The Zone‬.

MA: ‪Oh wait. Let me change the channel. I’m watching The Night Of. A little more intense. OR IS IT‬.

Erin: ‪No way it’s as intense as this‬.

MA: ‪Yes, I’m ready‬.

Erin: ‪Okay, so, we met in college‬. ‪South Carolina, baby‬.

MA: ‪We did.‬

Erin: ‪How long did we date?‬

MA: ‪We dated starting in January of my sophomore year and went through my junior year, because I remember that was the first year of pharmacy school and you helped me study.‬

Erin: ‪We started dating in March of your sophomore year‬.

MA: ‪Are you sure it wasn’t the end of January‬?

Erin: ‪Yes, because‬–

MA: ‪Okay, fine, March. Okay, sure.‬

Erin: ‪Ahahaha‬.

MA: ‪I told you I loved you immediately. Because I played it cool.‬

Erin: ‪Ohhhh, actually, you told me you loved me way before that. You were on painkillers from surgery and we were chatting over Instant Messenger during Christmas break.‬

MA: ‪That doesn’t count. I was altered‬.

Erin: ‪But still, not even four months of knowing each other we were well on our way‬.

MA: ‪We spent every second together. Literally. With soccer and travel games and meals between all morning classes.‬ ‪So, that’s more like a year in gay‬.

Erin: ‪That’s very true‬. ‪But March was the official “conversation.”‬

MA: ‪Okay, officer. Yes. March.‬

Erin: ‪Although it should be noted that I was sleeping at your apartment in your bed like four months after meeting you‬. ‪But then I’d pretend like nothing happened because I didn’t know I was gay yet‬, a‪hahahaha‬.

MA: ‪Four months?!? Ha. Try one.‬

Erin: “Do-do-do, off to class, see you later, friend!”‬ ‪Sorry about that‬.

MA: ‪And I was “gay,” so you were a mind fuck.‬

Erin: ‪What was my tell‬? ‪Besides playing soccer in college‬ lol.

MA: ‪Your tell?‬

Erin: ‪How did you know I was gay?‬

MA: ‪I didn’t know you were gay or anything close. You were blonde and a little quiet at first. But you kept sleeping in my bed so I thought maybe something was up‬.

Erin: ‪That’s still how I flirt‬.

MA: ‪How’s that work for you?‬

Erin: ‪I just keep showing up in people’s beds and I never leave‬.

MA: ‪”I’m just so sleepy. Your bed is just right. I’m gonna …fall…asleep…naked.”‬

Erin: ‪Plus it smelled nice in your room‬. ‪My dorm smelled like a landfill‬.

MA: ‪That was my pet rabbit.‬ ‪RIP.‬

Erin: ‪Too soon‬. S‪o, okay‬, ‪let’s split the difference and say we started dating in October of 2004‬. ‪2004, jesus‬.

MA: ‪Okay, so, over a decade ago. (Hard sip of beer)‬

Erin: ‪And now is an even more confusing question: When did we break up‬?

MA: ‪I really don’t know. It was sometime after Ryan died and that was in 2005. Then all that stuff happened with soccer that spring, and I think we broke up during my senior year in 2006 because I remember that being a hard time‬.

Erin: ‪Yeah, spring-ish 2006‬. ‪So, on and off (because there were definitely some offs) for two years‬.

MA: ‪Yeah.‬

Erin: ‪And why did we break up‬?

MA: ‪A lot of reasons… all of which were my fault.‬

Erin: ‪Ahaha, no‬.

MA: ‪I was insecure. I needed to be wanted and needed. And so I wasn’t a good girlfriend to you.‬ ‪That’s why. Or that’s what the reasons are in my head.‬

Erin: ‪I was also very new to dating‬. T‪o be thrown into my first relationship, my first sexual experience, AND find out I was gay all at the same time was… a lot‬.

MA: ‪Maybe I could play the defensive card and say we couldn’t be “out,” that family was an issue. Then soccer, and grad school, and losing a loved one.‬ ‪But at the end of the day, I was a shit head.‬

Erin: ‪Yeah, I think we were both just really new to being out in such a real way‬.

MA: ‪Sure. I guess so. But you seemed to take to it a little better than most. Your family was always amazing‬.

Erin: ‪I had that, but also they didn’t know at the time‬ ‪and I wasn’t ready to say anything‬.

MA: ‪Your mom KIND OF knew‬.‪ I was your special friend‬ ‪that came to all holidays and family gatherings‬. ‪Ha‬.

Erin: ‪”We’re just glad Erin has friends!”‬

MA: ‪And then they’d slip me money‬.

Erin: ‪”Usually she doesn’t talk to anyone.”‬

MA: ‪Twenty dollars every Sunday. Can’t beat that‬.

Erin: (‪#gigeconomy‬) ‪Anyway, we broke up but were still friends‬.

MA: ‪You kept sleeping in my bed, [EXPLETIVE!!!]. We shared a dog.‬ ‪And yes, we were friends. And I was trying to get you back. So “friends.”‬

Erin: ‪Rather than the “Irish goodbye” where you slip out without telling anyone the “lesbian goodbye” is to have a sort of intense breakup and then continue to sleep in each other’s beds‬.

MA: ‪For a year.‬ ‪Because that’s the healthy way. The lesbian diet.‬

Erin: ‪I’m just really partial to well decorated, nice smelling room‬s. ‪My apologies‬.

MA: ‪I am really appreciating these good smell compliments‬. [Here I’m supposed to reveal that MA is single.] ‪I recently just bought a new diffuser and pillows‬. ‪KEEP THAT ON THE RECORD‬.

Erin: ‪What did you learn from our relationship?‬

MA: ‪It was the most meaningful I’ve had because it was pretty much my FIRST everything‬. ‪I’m trying not to get sappy because of course we’re still friends and I adore you. But I learned about what love feels like and should feel like.‬

Erin: ‪MA!‬

MA: ‪What!‬

Erin: ‪That’s so nice‬. ‪And I can say the same‬. ‪Here’s the deal‬, ‪before I’d met you I had zero connection to the way people described‬ love. Like it just felt like this far-fetched, foreign thing.

MA: ‪I learned the bad as well, and I’m sure you did, too. Because you were a really big ass‬. ‪(Keeping it light?)‬

Erin: ‪Like it. And, no, many people can confirm that I am a hard person to date‬.

MA: ‪Hush.‬

Erin: ‪”Stoic” and “cold” may have been used by you and other people, who can know how many times really, so I did learn how to start being emotional in a way that is healthy‬. ‪Because you forced me to‬. ‪Like actually gave me an ultimatum‬. ‪Ahahaha‬.

MA: ‪HAHAHAHAH‬A.

Erin: ‪”I need you to acknowledge that something’s happening or I can’t be around you.”‬

MA: ‪Then you’d paint me something and we’d go eat at Waffle House.‬

Erin: ‪THE DREAM‬.

MA: ‪Problem solved‬.

Erin: ‪Here’s one that’s sort of been covered but let’s go ahead and stroke each other’s egos:‬ ‪What do you miss most about me?‬

MA: ‪You taught me a lot about not running away from someone‬.

Erin: ‪TOO LATE‬ ALREADY MOVED ON TO THE NEXT QUESTION.

MA: ‪Can I tell you to fuck off?‬ ‪Also The Bachelorette is on and she just kissed a guy so GIVE ME A MINUTE‬.

Erin: ‪She’s kissed all of them‬. ‪Also that guy looks like a toe‬.

MA: ‪Are your toes that hairy?‬ ‪God I’m so glad we broke up, you’re disgusting‬. ‪So, I don’t miss that about you‬.

Erin: ‪Noted!‬

MA: ‪I miss your wit‬.

[Like eight minutes pass.]

Erin: ‪That’s it‬.

MA: ‪You made me laugh constantly. And I had never met anyone like you and haven’t since. And I live in Austin.‬

Erin: ‪KEEP ‘ER WEIRD‬. ‪That’s very nice of you‬. ‪People reading this are like “….her?”‬

MA: ‪You challenged me and understood me in this way I had never had, and I miss that. That was the hardest part losing our relationship/friendship‬. ‪And you made the best egg sandwiches. That’s the biggest answer but I didn’t want to lead with that‬.

Erin: ‪I feel so seen right now‬.

MA: ‪You are loyal, too. Like would kill someone if they crossed me.‬ ‪And maybe you did??‬

Erin: ‪I would still do that‬.

MA: ‪Good because I have a list of people for you‬.

Erin: ‪*I mark each off in lipstick*‬ Okay, ‪so, what I miss about you‬ ‪is you have this magnetic presence that people get excited to be around. You can see them! Get excited!‬ ‪And I think a part of why that is is because you are genuinely interested in people and want to hear what they have to say, and people can feel that‬. ‪It’s why you were able to break this bitch down‬. ‪I also miss your humor‬. ‪You’re loyal, too, but you’re too small to kill anyone‬.

MA: ‪Well, thank you.‬ ‪Wait, wait, wait. Let’s just stop there. That’s not totally true. I’m 5’7″‬.

Erin: ‪IN YOUR BRA‬.

MA: ‪Sort of look like Kendall Jenner‬. ‪I’m brunette‬.

Erin: ‪Of Persian decent‬…

MA: ‪You’re sweet though. I wouldn’t say I miss that part of you but you’re being sweet now.‬

Erin: ‪Once in a blood moon‬.

MA: ‪Why did you reach out to me as the ex to interview? Because I always send you pictures of my dog?‬

Erin: ‪You’re the only one that would participate‬.

MA: ‪Fair.‬

Erin: ‪Ahahaha, no, jk‬. ‪I mean I’ve really just casually dated since college‬ ‪and [ex] and I don’t really speak?‬ ‪”Hey girl, wanna hash out some stuff?”‬

MA: ‪Haha, okay, fair. So, I’m the only one.‬

Erin: Yes. ‪On the flip side YOU’RE THE ONLY ONE I LIKED ENOUGH TO KEEP IN TOUCH WITH‬.

MA: ‪Heyyyy ohhhhh. It wasn’t always easy.‬ ‪Just took a decade‬.

Erin: ‪Easy breezy‬. ‪Okay, at this point in our relationship would you invite me to your wedding?‬

MA: ‪I would‬. ‪Maid of honor‬.

Erin: ‪That’s a lot of responsibility.‬

MA: ‪Your turn.‬

Erin: ‪I’m never getting married but theoretically, absolutely‬.

MA: ‪Well, I mean, I’m not even dating anyone so this is all very theoretical‬. ‪Can I officiate?‬

Erin:‪ Oh, even better‬. ‪Well, that’s all the questions I have‬.

MA: ‪I’m about to finish all these beers. Let’s start over. From the top‬. ‪Same questions.‬

Erin: ‪HAHAHA‬. ‪Do-over‬. ‪Oh, wait, I have one more question‬.

MA: ‪I will marry you.‬

Erin: ‪Lololol‬.

MA: ‪Not the question. Continue‬.

Erin: ‪Knowing what we know, what advice do you have for someone who’s like 19 reading this‬?

MA: ‪Go to therapy.‬

Erin: ‪LKDJGLSDKJKLSJFLDJGD‬. Mine would be to set boundaries‬. ‪Also don’t drink that tequila, girl‬.

[Wrapping up, the only way we know how.]

MA: ‪Hahahaha, I was surprised to hear you didn’t blame me for everything‬. ‪So, that was nice. Thanks for being nice. I don’t deserve that‬ ‪and we both know that‬.

Erin: ‪I did my own share of flaunting after the fact, so we’re even‬.

MA: ‪Asshole.‬

Interview With My Ex: Holden

Welcome to Interviews With My Ex-Girlfriend, in which Autostraddle writers get back in touch with their ex-girlfriends to ask them Five Simple Questions:

How long did we date?
Why did we break up?
What did you learn from our relationship?
What do you miss most about me?
Would you invite me to your wedding (why/why not)?

---

Holden and I met through a queer mentoring collective that had been started by a Ph.D student for his dissertation work. The mentoring collective fell apart, but the two of us have remained close since. We both have a love for 1970s musical theatre, outlandish gospel music, and Hall & Oates. I got them to stay over in my on-campus apartment for the first time by just happening to have a spare toothbrush. I tried to know them better than I knew myself, which ultimately led to our breakup, but getting to know them was the wildest and best ride I’ve taken thus far.

Alaina: Okay, so what do you want us to call this? Interview with my ex… with just my ex, why not just “my ex.” Because I’m not a girl anymore and you’re not a girl anymore and we’re just… with my “ex person.”

Holden: We’re just two non-girls.

Alaina: Two non girls. Two Non Blondes! Interview with two non-girls. Done. Okay. How long did we date?

Holden: We dated for…we dated for a year.

Alaina: Yep.

Holden: We dated for one year.

Alaina: One year, it was almost exactly one year, it was a little longer than one year… like a year and a month or something like that. Why did we break up?

Holden: We broke up…

Alaina: This is such an interesting question! I love hearing people’s answers to this on Autostraddle. I have an answer too, but I want to hear your answer.

Holden: We … from my positionality, we broke up because the relationship felt like it was toxic. And it felt like that toxicity was not going to change with things continuing the way that they were. I know I had felt that way for a while. And actually before we broke up that time we had broken up before…

Alaina: Yes! Yeah. True, I forgot about that. Yeah, I think it was definitely a toxic relationship — wait, were you saying more? Did you have more?

Holden: I was going to say yeah, like we broke up before and then we like actually broke up again that was like when we like broke up broke up.

Alaina: Right yeah. ‘Cause I feel like we didn’t technically like break up until like January… of 2013.

Holden: The process was … it was long.

Alaina: It was an extended process!

Holden: It was, which is the way it is! Particularly with queer folks!

Alaina: It was like me. I was in a rough place. I think it was like a toxic relationship and I think it was toxic because we stopped talking. Like I stopped talking because I didn’t wanna burden you, and I think you stopped talking about how my not talking burdened you. So I wasn’t telling you how I felt and then you were like “I have to take care of them because they’re clearly going insane, but like I can’t tell them that this is stressing me out.” And all I wanted to do was take care of you and all you wanted to do was take care of me and neither of us were taking care of ourselves. And then it was like “okay, well neither of us are talking to each other, and Alaina’s being abusive and threatening to kill themselves every five minutes, and this can’t work anymore.”

Holden: Yeah.

Alaina: Yeah. I think that’s exactly what happened. I’m glad we broke up though, to be honest. we’re better friends.

Holden: Mhmm, I agree with that. I think it was like… yeah. I think it was a really good thing.

Alaina: I do too. Okay, so as a tie-in, what did you learn from our relationship?

Holden: Oh wow, what did I learn?

Alaina: I know, these are such good questions!

Holden: I learned that you can’t save people? You can’t help people who either don’t want to help themselves or don’t know how to help themselves in that moment so whenever you do try to do that a lot of times it can be more harmful than helpful.

Alaina: Mmm.

Holden: I think that at least I can speak for me a lot of resentment got built up…

Alaina: A lot of resentment… yeah, absolutely.

Holden: Um, you know, and that felt kind of—

Alaina: It was gross. We had an awful like eight months. After. And it wasn’t even like when …it was like after we broke up but we were still living together. But it wasn’t even right after we broke up. It was when we moved here [Note: My ex and I lived together — even moved into a new house together — for almost a year after our breakup because we were young and a mess.] It was when we moved here! It was awful.

Holden: It’s really hard, especially when you really care about somebody and you really want the best for them. You want what’s best for them and you think that maybe you can help them get that? Or get to that place? And then you realize that you can’t, and you’re like “Well then fuck it, okay.” But you still want to be there for them because you see them hurting and so you want to be there, you want to try and help, but you know there isn’t really much you can do and so it’s like what do you do?

Alaina: Right, ugh!

Holden: How do you address it? Do you keep your mouth shut? Do you say something?

Alaina: Straight people don’t think about this.

Holden: Huh?

Alaina: Straight people don’t think about shit like this. Which is crazy! Like to them it’s just, “oh you’re being a bitch.”

Holden: Yeah, and it’s definitely I knew it wasn’t just “Alaina’s being a bitch.” I was fully aware that there was a lot of shit going on that you weren’t telling me about, but I also knew that I was kind of at a place where there wasn’t much that I could do or say that would make the situation better.

Alaina: Yeah.

Holden: And that you kinda had to go through your own process of going through that, even if that own process was like hurtful or harmful to me and you and whatever type of relationship we have or we had. But I never thought it would be something where we’d never speak to each other again, because I feel like we had both invested so much in like cultivating a relationship with one another that we really appreciated the goodness that we had, because I mean … it was good, it was really good.

Alaina: It was really good when it was good.

Holden: Yeah, and so even though there might be things where it was really hard, we always came back to that goodness and were able to see that, particularly because we both really respect each other.

Alaina: Yeah. I agree with that.

Holden: I could never in a million years say you don’t respect me, you know?

Alaina: Yeah. Never. I could never that about you either because I don’t believe that at all… That was good, you learned good stuff.

Holden: What did you learn?

Alaina: I learned… I learned everything that you learned. I also learned for me personally in a relationship I have to bring something up immediately when I’m feeling it or I won’t do it all because I’ll stress myself out about it and then I won’t talk. And I can’t not talk if I want to be in a healthy relationship, I have to communicate; which is why I broke up with [redacted] because I was like no, we have to do this because I’m not gonna be angry at you from now until whenever you decide to end this relationship because that’s not gonna be good for us at all. Like, I can’t start something where I’m feeling scared or angry, or depressed or suicidal even though it has nothing to do with you, I have to say it, or else the relationship will not work. So I’ve learned that like, there has to be 100% open communication in whatever relationship I’m in now, or it’s not gonna work. I bring that to every relationship now. If it’s more than fuck buddies, I bring it in there.

Holden: (laughs) Mhmm.

Alaina: Um, okay, hair flip, what do you miss most about me?

Holden: (laughs)

Alaina: This is my favorite question.

Holden: Ummmm…

Alaina: I can go first. I know what miss most about you. It’s how much I could talk to you. It doesn’t matter about what, just anything. I just came over here and we were talking about race and gender and theology and I love this. I’m always learning from you. No one since you has like… moved my mind as much as you. I know I shouldn’t say this, but a lot of the studs I’ve known just care about cars and bitches. Like, okay?

Holden: Aw thank you. That feels good.

Alaina: Yeah, like, you’re incredibly — I’ve learned so much from you.

Holden: Um, I miss the fact that like we have… we’re so different but so similar at the same time, so like that’s something I always appreciated. Like there were definitely things we have the same taste in, and have similar experiences with a lot of things. And your sense of humor is so dry and hilarious, it’s great. It is very you. And I definitely miss those things and being able to share that with you. Because even on your worst day, you just will find the really dark point and find humor in that. Which is why I love the fact that you act and are involved in theatre, because it’s so dry and very much so… Alaina. You are very much so your own person.

Alaina: Thank you.

Holden: Yeah, you really are very much so your own person.

Alaina: That’s a huge compliment. Thank you.

Holden: You’re welcome. And I can definitely appreciate that about you.

Alaina: That was such a good question to ask each other! Thanks Autostraddle! Aww, we both feel really good after that I think! Okay, and this is the last question. At this point in our relationship would you invite me to your wedding? Wait, and I have an amendment. Wait, no, first you have to answer. Would you invite me to your wedding?

Holden: Would I invite you to my wedding? Yes.

Alaina: What would I be in your wedding?

Holden: Oh, okay…

Alaina: If I was something. You could just say a guest.

Holden: If you were something you would be….you would be a guest. You could possibly sing…

Alaina: Oh, okay. I’ll sing you a little something!

Holden: *sings* If you like it then you shoulda put a ring on it!

Alaina: Exactly! I’ll sing “Single Ladies” a la Liza Minelli.

Holden: If you sing that our wedding is basically gonna become Sex and the City because I’m gonna sing “Sunrise Sunset.”

Alaina: Of course you are. What else would you sing?

Holden: Nothing.

Alaina: Good. I would invite you to my wedding. You would be like, the ring bearer. Like you could wear a blazer with some shorts. Or maybe not even a blazer, just a vest. Like a vest and a collared shirt and some shorts. And penny loafers. You’d be my ring bearer.

Holden: To add context to this y’all, I am 25 years old and I am a staggering 5 foot 3. I actually found out I grew an inch.

Alaina: Good for you! I think you’d be a great ring bearer. So look out for that in if-I-ever-get-married years.

Holden: Well you’re supposed to be marrying the person who will become the president, right?

Alaina: Right, so it’s a large duty. I don’t wanna pick the wrong president. Because I’m not just picking a wife, I’m picking the next leader of America.

Holden: Yeah. Big job… Wait, so that’s it?

Alaina: Yep, that’s it!

Holden: Oh, I thought there would be more questions.

Alaina: Nope. Easy.

Holden: Cool.

Interview With My Ex-Girlfriend: Jade

Welcome to Interviews With My Ex-Girlfriend, in which Autostraddle writers get back in touch with their ex-girlfriends to ask them Five Simple Questions:

1. How long did we date?
2. Why did we break up?
3. What did you learn from our relationship?
4. What do you miss most about me?
5. Would you invite me to your wedding (why/why not)?

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I met Jade at a skateboard park somewhere in Hong Kong. It was the late nineties; we were just kids. She’d been dragged away from her plush school in Sydney because her mother had got a new job. I’d travelled there voluntarily, with a one-way ticket and no plan, job or place to stay. We became fast friends, and then more than friends. She was funny and beautiful. We spent every waking moment together. We held hands at the back of buses and made out in the back of cinemas. We smoked weed on her parents’ rooftop and the crept into her bedroom after they went to bed. She would’ve been my first ever ex-girlfriend if we’d been sure or brave enough to put a name on what we had.

Our relationship took place before camera-phones and Facebook existed and so we couldn’t find any cute photos of us together.

---

Crystal: To the best of your recollection, how long were we together? When were we together?

Jade: Six months? I think it was ’99.

Crystal: I think so. Because we were 15, yeah?

Jade: Weren’t we 14? Oh! What year was that Spice Girls movie released?

Crystal: *googles* 1997! Oh shit, no. That would have made us, what, 13? No, that can’t be right.

Jade: No, no way. But movie schedules there were always weird. You were fucking obsessed with that movie, do you remember?

Crystal: Ha, yes. I dragged you to see it with me all the time.

Jade: Sometimes I still think about that. Not that I think about those days often… but, now and then, it’s nice to remember how weird and confusing your whole deal was. You were a different kid.

Crystal: What do you mean?

Jade: Like, your tastes and aesthetic… I remember you listened to punk bands and had this crazy purple punk hair, but then you were also obsessed with the Spice Girls and wore those shirts with cartoon characters embroidered on them. Also one day you showed up with a perm?

Bambi double denim

Crystal: Those shirts were only a few dollars at Stanley Markets. It was a bargain.

Jade: That’s what I mean! No kids our age thought like that. We were all so obsessed with fitting in but you never gave a fuck. Not in the way some kids tried so hard to be special snowflakes, either. You didn’t act like our teenage bullshit was dumb, like you were above it. You were just, I don’t know… politely uninterested?

Crystal: Thanks, I think? Spice World ended up being hugely influential in terms of my life direction, just so you know.

Jade: That doesn’t surprise me.

Crystal: But it’s not like you were a typical teen, either. You played rugby! That was pretty out there for that time. I thought that was so badass. To answer the question, though… let’s go with us being maybe 14 or possibly 15 and dating for six months. Now that I’m in my thirties, neither of those ages seem old enough to date.

Jade: I was definitely too young to know better.

Crystal: Funny. But maybe true?

Jade: We were both a lot older than our ages, though. Lots of immigrant kids we knew were. But you especially. We weren’t formally dating, anyway. It’s not like you ever asked me to be your girlfriend.

Crystal: You’re right about us not technically dating, but it wasn’t some casual friends with benefits situation either…

Jade: No, no, it was much more than that.

Crystal: Would you have wanted to be my girlfriend?

Jade: I don’t know. That’s a question I asked myself a lot over the years, usually in the context of whether it would have changed anything. There were definitely frustrating times when I wished we had something that I could name or define, or maybe tell friends about. But who knows whether I would have actually been ready for that. I was still figuring myself out.

Crystal: Do you remember why we broke up?

Jade: Of course! Wait, do you?

Crystal: Yeah, I do. How do you remember it?

Jade: You came to my house and just casually mentioned that you were moving back to Sydney. We smoked a joint on the roof and then you slept over. When I woke up you were gone.

Crystal: That’s how I remember it too. How did you feel about all that? I don’t really recall you having a bad reaction.

Jade: You didn’t give me a chance to react. You just left.

Crystal: That’s true. For whatever it’s worth now, I’m sorry about the shitty way I handled that.

Jade: Too little too late there, champ. But it’s fine. Actually, no — it sucked in a big way. You were my first girlfriend… or whatever. I was so in love with you. And being in Hong Kong had intensified things between us so much. Our social circle was tiny, we were all we had. So for you to leave, and so suddenly… that was heartbreaking.

Crystal: Ugh. I’m sorry. Again.

Jade: It’s okay. I’ve forgiven you.

Crystal: Yeah, sounds like.

Jade: No, really! I have. I was a teenager; you could have broken up with me in the nicest way and I still would have believed that my whole world was ending. I thought you loved me and my idealistic baby brain couldn’t comprehend that love wasn’t a good enough reason for you to stay. Also I think what made everything so much harder was that it was the 90s. I couldn’t drunk-text you my feelings at 2 am. I fucking hated you and there was no easy way to let you know that.

Crystal: I don’t mean this as an excuse, more just an explanation with the benefit of hindsight: I think… back then I really wasn’t used to people caring about whether or not I was around. I didn’t think leaving town was a big deal because so many people in my life had walked away from me like it was no big deal. Honestly it took me an embarrassingly long time to learn that up and leaving wasn’t the status quo.

Jade: Yeah, that’s something I figured out for myself later on. I think I was too young to fully comprehend how your upbringing could have influenced your behaviour. Still, you could have handled things a LOT better than you did.

Crystal: That’s fair. I understand why you were so pissed.

Jade: You were the first girl I’d been attracted to. I had a tonne of shit to figure out and you were supposed to be with me on that journey. You bailed on me during a huge identity crisis — one that you played a big hand in bringing about.

Crystal: Now I feel even more terrible. Why did I think this interview was a good idea?

Jade: Yes, seriously. How did you expect this go?

Crystal: For what it’s worth, I really wanted to reach out once I arrived back home. Leaving had been hard; I missed you so much. But like you said, it’s not like we could text or Skype. Your parents would have barred any attempt at contacting you, I’m pretty sure.

Jade: No doubt. They would have burned your letters. Blocked your number. Moved me to a safe house.

Crystal: I still don’t understand why they hated me so much? It’s not like they knew we were hooking up… right?

Jade: Oh god no. They were just protective. You saw my life, it was so sheltered. To them you were this strange kid who lived in a convent and came out of nowhere. They didn’t know you and so they didn’t trust you.

Crystal: Well I guess that was fairly astute of them, given how things between us developed. Should we talk about what happened when you moved back to Sydney?

Jade: Like how I didn’t want anything to do with you? I was still so cut. Plus I was excited to get back to my old school, to be with my old friends. By that time you’d gotten a boyfriend and I didn’t want to deal with that.

Crystal: But we did become friends again in our senior year, although I don’t remember that lasting long.

Jade: Yeah, we tried to do the friends thing a few times. It just never stuck. Things between us were so different in Sydney. I was still really attracted to you but it was like what we had together could only exist in Hong Kong. Does that sound weird?

Crystal: No, not at all. It’s true. We’d built this little insular world and it couldn’t be replicated anywhere else. But also our needs were totally different. In Sydney we had so many more people in our lives, so many other distractions…

Jade: Exactly. I had your full attention in Hong Kong and it was like once I knew how that felt, no way would I settle for less. Maybe that was really selfish but it had to be all or nothing with you.

Crystal: We did go on that one date, though. One day you came into my work just by chance, after us not having seen each other in years. I remember us getting along really well. Why didn’t we stay in touch?

Jade: We did, it was such a nice time. I think enough years had passed for me to be able to see you as an adult, almost like a brand-new person, rather than my teenage fling from Hong Kong. That changed things. You didn’t seem like you were in a good place though.

Crystal: Oh.

Jade: You seemed really… destructive? I remember you were hooking up with your boss and making some a few other questionable decisions. You weren’t high at the time but my feeling was that you’d been doing a lot of drugs.

Crystal: Yikes.

Jade: It was hard to see that you didn’t have your shit together. So why didn’t you stay in touch?

Crystal: I can’t remember. It sounds like I had a lot going on.

Jade: Yeah, you were busy. I think everything worked out okay, in the end. I’d just started seeing a really great guy and now we’re married. It seems like you’re having a good life as well. This might sound harsh but I’m actually really glad that there was no second date.

Crystal: That’s fair. And I guess that answers the next question, about whether you’d invite me to your wedding. I wouldn’t invite you to mine either.

Jade: I haven’t even invited you to be my Facebook friend.

Crystal: No, and I’m fine with that. It’s been so long. Do you miss anything about me?

Jade: Yes, of course. I know I’ve been ragging on you pretty hard but that’s only because losing your… goodness… from my life really sucked. The thing I miss most is probably how fearless you were. You were shy but at the same time you were so confident and self-assured about a lot of things, which rubbed off on me. You just did whatever-the-fuck and that was something I admired.

Crystal: That makes me sound a little bratty.

Jade: No, not at all. God, you’re one of the most grounded people I’ve ever met. You can add that to the things I miss. What I mean is that you just took everything in stride. It was so frustrating! I’d be sitting there, totally freaking out over being attracted to you, a girl. Just fully panicking and going “BUT WHAT DOES THIS ALL MEAN???” and you’d just shrug and tell me not to overthink it, because that’s how you handled your life. I mean, fuck you.

Crystal: I miss your unique way of complimenting me.

Jade: Ha. What I’m saying is that you had this self-assuredness and… optimism that I missed, even though there was usually a frustrating side to those things. But no matter what shit was going down you always made me feel like things would work out okay. I think… given what your life had been like up to that point, that was pretty amazing. I feel like you should have turned into this bitter, negative person but you weren’t, and when I held my life up against yours it helped put my problems in perspective.

Crystal: Maybe this will be a similar answer… what did you learn from our relationship?

Jade: Trust no one?

Crystal: Ouch.

Jade: Kidding… sort of. No, I’d say the biggest learning was that sometimes it’s okay for good things to end. I was always so sentimental about my relationships. I’d try hanging onto people long after they’d stopped contributing goodness to my life. I think our failed attempts at reuniting over the years has taught me that some things have an expiry date and that’s okay.

Crystal: True, our relationship really hasn’t stood up against time. I’m fine with that too. We made some really great memories and I’m pretty happy to just enjoy those instead of trying to force a friendship again.

Interview With My Ex-Girlfriend: Mila

Welcome to Interviews With My Ex-Girlfriend, in which Autostraddle writers get back in touch with their ex-girlfriends to ask them Five Simple Questions:

1. How long did we date?
2. Why did we break up?
3. What did you learn from our relationship?
4. What do you miss most about me?
5. Would you invite me to your wedding (why/why not)?

---

In February of 2014, following about a year of Saturn return introspection and angst, I packed up everything I owned and moved from New York City to Los Angeles. Through my research for an article about Tinder, I ended up going on a couple of dates with a fashion designer I had very little in common with. This dysfunctional pairing kept me occupied for just a few weeks until I met a friend of hers who was visiting from New York. Mila was sharp, funny and distractingly attractive, a gifted writer who’d actually written a few pieces for this very website a few years ago. The way we ended up together was a little confusing, but by the time she flew back to Brooklyn a couple of weeks later, we were already completely besotted with each other.

Our relationship was long-distance, which neither of us had wanted, but we communicated constantly and fell disgustingly in love. None of it was easy; neither of us could afford to visit the other very often, and I was having an awfully rough time getting settled in LA. When I finally decided to pack up and head back east in October, Mila unceremoniously dumped me two weeks before I was due to arrive. She happened to be visiting a friend in Denver, so on my journey home, I drove all night from California to Colorado in an effort to win her back with my grand romantic gesture (we ended up screaming at each other and crying in the parking lot of a Jamba Juice). I spent the next six months trying unsuccessfully to convince her to give me another shot, then gave up and stopped talking to her for several months. At long last, we finally arrived at a place where we were ready to be friends. I may spend the rest of my life trying to convince her that our relationship probably could have worked if we’d actually tried it IRL, but in the meantime I have the most incredible, loyal, brilliant, badass friend a girl could ask for, always up for a glass of wine, always ready to recommend the perfect book. I guess it worked out pretty OK.

Mila’s currently crashing with her parents in Ohio, so she agreed to Skype with me about our [allegedly] great love affair.

Stef: Hi.

Mila: Hi.

Stef: How’s it goin’?

Mila: Like such. (takes a drink)

Stef: I think the way this works is I ask you questions, and you can ask me questions. Like, if you want me to answer them too, you can.

Mila: But how does that…

Stef: They want us to like, have a conversation. Can you have a conversation?

Stef: You’re a ridiculous person, you know this. OK so… How long did we date?

Mila: Um… okay…

Stef: I’m very curious to see if you can answer this question.

Mila: Four months….?

Stef: I’m not answering this question, you have to answer it yourself.

Mila: (counting on fingers) April to May, May to June, July, August! That’s four.

Stef: You broke up with me in October. Did you not remember any of that!?

Mila: Well I feel like when we broke up it was still warm out so I thought maybe it was August.

Stef: It was October 5^th, actually our five month anniversary.

Mila: So it was five months.. No! That would make it six, because of April.

Stef: Well it was the five-month anniversary of when I actually asked you to be my girlfriend. I mean, I feel like in April, we did a lot of “you live really far away, we’re not gonna do this, that would be stupid!” We met at the end of March.

Mila: Yeah, I remember that.. but in April, we talked all the time and I feel like that’s when it started unraveling.

Stef: Yeah, we were both just like, “Well, I live here, you live there, obviously we can’t do anything, what’s the point? You’re so far away, we can put this on hold, it’s fine.” Then it became very apparent that it was just not a thing that we could do. I think what actually happened was that you were drunk at a bar because you’d just finished your thesis and you texted me “such girlfriend, wow” and I called you to make it official.

Mila: Oh, yeah, so that was May 5^th! I know exactly when that was. If you just said “when did you finish your thesis?” This would have been way easier. I was in the bathroom! Now I remember.

Stef: I was on the street, around the corner from the grocery store. It was all very romantic.

Mila: That night was really intense… Did we talk on the phone? I was just like, “What do you need?!”

Stef: Okay, so… why did we break up?

Mila: Why isn’t that the last question?! Who wrote this thing?!

Stef: It’s not the last question.

Mila: It has to be. It’s really heavy. Here we are having a good time laughing and… OK, well you’re answering this one first. Why do you think we broke up? Because obviously it’s my fault, and you know my reasons – I’ve explained them 90,000 times.

Stef: Because I asked you 90,000 times, because I’ve pleaded with you to get back together 90,000 times… and you’ll have none of it!

Mila: (takes a drink)

Stef: Well, when we met, I was in the middle of a really deep depressive episode that took a lot of your energy in an unfair and shitty way.. We were also long distance, which was really stressful. And then… I mean, essentially I wore you out, I think. I wore you down. And then it was two weeks before I was gonna move back and you just freaked out. How do you feel about that assessment?

Mila: I think that’s a pretty good assessment. Honestly, it’s obviously not one person’s fault that it was just too much, too fast, too soon. I was going through a lot that I didn’t get to process because I was busy dealing with your shit, and I was doing it for a while without realizing that… we should have maybe done it a little differently. I let it go on for too long, and then I freaked out – and when I freak out, I hit the escape button.

Stef: It was a lot, the distance. I think you’d freak out a lot and try to break up with me like, once a month, and usually I could calm you down and talk you out of it.. This time I could just tell that there was no talking you out of it. I didn’t even really try. It was breakfast-time, too – I was making a tofu scramble, Liz Castle was coming over and we were gonna go to the Long Beach Aquarium. It was gonna be this really cool thing we were doing before I left LA. Liz showed up as I had just gotten you on the phone and I just handed her a spatula and was like, “Can you take care of this? My girlfriend’s dumping me right now.” So then I was in the bathroom crying for 45 minutes, I come back, breakfast is ruined.

Mila: You ruined breakfast?!?!?

Stef: No, I mean, she finished making breakfast but by then it was cold, and also my kitchen got really hot when you cooked in there so by the time I got back – Liz didn’t know what to do so she was just fucking shirtless and cleaning my kitchen from top to bottom.

Mila: I love that.

Stef: I come back all teary-eyed and puffy and she just looks up at me like… I mean, then I just went to the aquarium and cried at all of the animals.

Mila: Yeah, then I had to go downstairs at work and help children find books that were too expensive. I don’t know, I guess another thing, and obviously – this is why I keep telling you I’m not good for relationships and you’re like, “nonsense!” I mean, really – there is some of it that does get too real. I can’t picture my own future. I don’t know how to think about it, and when someone is very honest and they tell me that they see me in theirs, I want to just extract myself immediately, like “I’m probably gonna fuck this up somehow. I’m gonna ruin everything and break your heart somewhere down the line, so we’d better just get it out of the way now.” That’s true. Don’t cry!

Stef: I’m not! I’m not even close! I feel like the last time we talked about it (literally two days ago) it kind of clicked for me. I’m able to look at it and be like “alright, at least we can be friends.” I mean, you’ve told me about a thousand times, but I think it’s finally clicking for me. I’m glad I get to keep you in my life.

Mila: You say that now…

Stef: It’s weird, because I met you six weeks after I fucking moved to LA. I knew that move was a mistake within a month. Everyone kept saying, “It takes like a month to get used to LA! It takes six months! It takes two years!” and I was like, “I don’t want to try that hard, I hate this! I want to go home.” And then I met you and I was like, “well fuck THIS.”

Mila: So I wasn’t totally useless because I brought you home, didn’t I?

Stef: You told me I wasn’t supposed to move home for you! And I didn’t!

Mila: I know, but I sort of made you…What are you looking at?

Stef: (guiltily) Emails.

Mila: Really?! Really?!?!?!

Stef: …I love you.

Mila: ….

Stef: Anyway yeah, I mean, I thought.. (horn plays in background)…

Mila: I can’t believe this is your job. Anyway… here’s what I learned about relationships from dating you, and I realize this is something I was doing wrong a lot in relationships before to other people, and it wasn’t til you did it to me that I realized I needed to stop – totally no filter between partner and therapist. There’s a difference between listening and helping and being there and just… having the whole weight of it on you, just all of it. I used to do that to people I think, “well, if you don’t do x and y obviously you don’t care about me.” I mean, there’s plenty of reasons people don’t do x and y, it doesn’t mean they don’t care about you.

Stef: Yeah. I mean, I don’t think I’d really done that to that degree to anyone before like that. It was the first time that I felt very supported in a relationship. I put too much on you..

Mila: Yeah, I do have that supportive vibe, and then people forget I’m an emotionally unstable person.

Stef: You had no idea what you were fuckin’ walking into, did you?

Mila: I really did. I mean, you liked my best friend Lindsay. That was a huge red flag.

Stef: Did it turn out to be a red flag?!

Mila: It did.

Stef: How?!

Mila: Well… that you liked her and then immediately liked me right after even though we’re like night and day.

Stef: But I didn’t really like her that much! It was super weird because I met this really intense crazy person right when I got there who wanted to hang out with me all the time but didn’t know me. She took me out all the time, which I needed, but also she wasn’t super nice to me. That relationship was just me trying to see what my life in LA was going to be… and it wasn’t that, at all. That’s also how I met you, so it was worth it for that.

Mila: On the whole I think it made things better. You learned something?

Stef: Yeah.

Mila: Then it was not a waste of time.

Stef: The other crazy thing is that we had lived so close to each other in New York and we never met.

Mila: There’s a reason for that.

Stef: Is there?! During this whole period of time I was always late-night gchatting this friend who was in Israel, so she was always awake at batshit hours, and I told her the day that I met you that I’d met this really beautiful, intelligent, amazing girl, and why the hell didn’t we meet girls like this when we lived in Brooklyn? Were we just not trying that hard? You lived four blocks from my best friend! I remember asking you – where the fuck were you?! And you were just like, “I was right there.”

Mila: I was there! All the time, at Mercury Lounge, Library Bar, the other one, haunting it every other night! Where the F were you?!

Stef: I was there. Ugh, whatever, now I’m here and you’re in fucking Ohio.

Mila: Is that a sufficient answer to your question?

Stef: Yeah.

Mila: You don’t sound sure.

Stef: I mean, I know why we broke up. I need the readers to understand.

Mila: We broke up because it wasn’t gonna work.

Stef: I think it could have worked. I maintain that it could have worked, that it was an issue of timing. I do. I know you don’t agree with me.

Mila: Well I maintain it was an issue of personality and timing.

Stef: …Whatever.

Mila: Agree to disagree.

Stef: I think we’re gonna go back and forth about this forever.

Mila: You can’t tell me I’m wrong about my feelings! That’s insane.

Stef: Yes I can. Anyway. What did you learn from our relationship? What do you think will impact future relationships? Neither of us has really had an official relationship since we broke up.

Mila: Like I said, I learned to not use anyone as my emotional punching bag… and not to say shit too early! In fact, this might actually ruin my future relationships. I felt like such a dick when I broke up with you and you were like, “A month ago you were just in love with me!”

Stef: The night before, actually. The night before you dumped me, we had a whole conversation where you told me I was the best girlfriend you’d ever had, that I’d treated you better than anyone ever had, and that you loved me.

Mila: That’s still true!

Stef: I sent you a text overnight like, “I know this has been really hard but I’m gonna be home soon and I love you and it’s gonna be OK.” I woke up and you were like, “I can’t be your girlfriend,” and I… I was just blindsided.

Mila: I don’t think you ever really prepare for that sort of thing.

Stef: I did not think that was how that was going to go down. Um, anything positive you got out of our relationship? Or no?

Mila: Obviously whoever is the next official… whatever… They have some big shoes to fill. You took really good care of me and obviously cared about me. You don’t get me all the time, maybe nobody is going to get me all the time.

Stef: I’m gonna hate your next person so bad. I can’t wait. I’m gonna be such a dick to them.

Mila: You’re a dick to people who even look at me wrong.

Stef: Yup. Just wait.

Mila: You refused a cab home on my birthday in the snowy icy tundra.

Stef: Because you asked me to take it with you and the guy you were seeing… and you don’t even remember it! I took a bus, it was fine.

Mila: The bus isn’t real.

Stef: What do you miss about me?

Mila: Aw. Here, I wrote a list.

Stef: Did you?!

Mila: You know how I write things down in my notes when I’m drinking and I know I’ll forget something, I write it down. Hold on… Well, this might sound like an insult but I think it’s really cute how creepy you are. You just go and look for shit… Like, for example… you asked someone who the winner of Drag Race was so you could talk to me about it.

Stef: I did, didn’t I.

Mila: Um. Anyway, I miss… honestly like, just… talking to you, bullshitting with you. It’s the best bullshitting because we just make each other laugh all the time.

Stef: We didn’t lose that.

Mila: You’re still my first choice to do fun shit. My friends don’t really understand what music is.

Stef: But I mean, from being together? We live in the same city, we can do that now as friends. We didn’t get to do that when we were together.

Mila: We didn’t do anything! We just talked about our feelings.

Stef: I don’t know, I thought it was kind of sweet.

Mila: But it was exhausting! I mean, being in love is great, knowing someone is always thinking about you and caring about you, are you kidding? No one’s ever gonna love me that way ever again… I mean, I did that to myself.

Stef: Yeah ya did.

Mila: (extended glaring)… You done?

Stef: Yes.

Mila: Of course it came at a price.. You’re always going to think there was something wrong with you expressly because it didn’t work out. There are a lot of things I’m gonna miss… Who wrote these fucking questions?!

Stef: Riese, of course.

Mila: Oh GODDDD. Why not something more like…

Stef: What do you want me to ask you?

Mila: I don’t know, can you answer that question?

Stef: You took great care of me when we were together. You Seamlessed me a fucking pizza with hearts all over it. You sent me black roses, you sent me makeup, you sent me that perfume with that insanely sweet note in it that I still have…

Mila: You didn’t like that.

Stef: Well, the perfume wasn’t something I’d have chosen for myself because on me it has these patchouli notes…

Mila: You know you can exchange that, right?

Stef: Anyway as I was saying… You really went out of your way to make me feel loved. I was unemployed and depressed and had really nothing going for me and I was a little desperate and crazy and you’d congratulate me for the smallest things to make me feel like I was doing something. You were so supportive!

Mila: I mean, you were so down and you didn’t have any money… I thought the pizza was a nice thing to do!

Stef: It kind of freaked me out at first but I started to really love that we could do that for each other.. Like when you were hungover at work and I could send you a juice or whatever. It grew on me. I sent you cheesecake, bat-shaped marshmallows… We sent each other cute things. Long distance is hard… we were actually pretty good at it.

Mila: Yeah, people who read this can learn how to do long distance because we rocked that out… Just being together isn’t working.

Stef: You’ll never know, bitch. At this juncture, would you invite me to your wedding?

Mila: What kind of wedding?! Like as my plus one to someone else’s? Yeah.

Stef: No, like if you were getting married, would you invite me to your wedding? Hm, maybe not if I’m gonna be a huge dick to your person.

Mila: Like if I’m suddenly getting married right now? Or in the future at some point?!

Stef: I don’t know.

Mila: Well… If I were getting married right now it’d be very odd, and I feel like it’d maybe be rude? So… I don’t know. (laughs)

Stef: OK, so you’re not getting married right now. Let’s say down the line, you meet a person who’s awesome and you’re getting married. Are you inviting me?

Mila: You’re gonna poison them!

Stef: Yes, I am. But if you have an open bar, we’ll have a good time!

Mila: Oh GOD. I totally picture this Shakespearean thing where you put poison in their glass and then we do that like, wraparound toast thing where I drink out of their glass and it’s too late and I die and it’s a whole thing and you go to jail and you get to live out Orange Is The New Black but it’s not as cool, because that show embellishes. You’re gonna feel really bad that you poisoned my partner. Short answer, maybe. How about you?

Stef: Are you kidding? Of course I would. You’re good at a party.

Mila: I would fall into the cake.

Stef: You’d give a really good speech.

Mila: Yeah… You should probably tip me for the speech in advance… But then who do I get to bring as a +1 if you’re getting married?!

Stef: Ugh, I don’t know. You’re gonna have to find someone else.

Mila: So we’re maybe inviting each other to the wedding.

Stef: Do you want to talk about how we met?

Mila: No. (laughs)

Stef: Well, I kind of want to talk about how we first hooked up because it was hilarious in retrospect… I was really sad and we were at Lindsay’s and she passed out.. You and I were talking and we had just been drinking champagne and boxed wine all night anyway, we just kept going.. And then you were just like, “fuck this” and we left and went to Loaded. You bought me shots. Two guys were talking to us and you put your arm around me to get them to go away… which dudes never really pick up on ever. But you kept your arm there for a while and I was just like, wait, WHAT? That didn’t seem like a possible thing. We stayed there for a while and the bar closed and you were just furious because LA bars close at two.

Mila: It’s bullshit!

Stef: It IS bullshit. Everyone’s driving, the bars close early, I don’t know how anyone does anything. So we went back to Lindsay’s and we filled a water bottle with vodka —

Mila: It wasn’t vodka.

Stef: What was it?

Mila: Do you really want to know?

Stef: Yes.

Mila: ….It was cooking sherry.

Stef: These were dark times. The only thing that open was this shady little hookah bar on Hollywood Boulevard, and we went in there and I smoked hookah to impress you?! We brought cooking sherry?! Why did she have cooking sherry?! So we’re there, and I was wasted, you were wasted… You blew smoke into my mouth and I was terrified because I thought you were going to kiss me. Then I finally decided I was gonna do it.

Mila: So you kissed me. Then we came home… you tell this part.

Stef: So we come back and I keep being like, “No, we can’t! No, we mustn’t!” and then grabbing you again because I couldn’t not.

Mila: You were acting like you were in a bodice-ripper. I was like, “OK, then don’t,” and you were like, “BUT WAIT!” So then we’re in the kitchen and… here you are waffling about over whether or not you wanna fuck and I was like “Well, it looks like she does. She’s touching me like she does, so it looks like I’m just gonna have to go down on this sad girl.”

Stef: I think you are probably not the first person who’s thought that about me.

Mila: Apparently, this whole time Lindsay was watching from the hallway. She woke up to get her meds and was like, “Whoa! What do I do? This is really hot but I also need my meds.” She came out like “Oh hey guys, don’t mind me…” I was like, “LOL” but you were like, “OH JESUS.”

Stef: I called an Uber and took the fuck off.

Mila: And then I passed out on the couch covered in kale chips.

Stef: I went home and cried and felt crazy. Then we kept talking.. Then a few days later you texted me to meet you at Darkroom because you needed a Xanax.

Mila: I think that was just an excuse.

Stef: But the second you asked, I was out the door, getting on a bus to come meet you. The second you asked. That whole time was crazy. It took a while. I had to make sure I didn’t really like Lindsay and that all of that was behind me. I had to figure out what the fuck was happening. It was complicated and I didn’t want to use anyone or hurt anybody. I wanted to be sure.

Mila: What’s that thing they say, that the road to hell is paved with good intentions? I never got it out of my head that I was just a band-aid.

Stef: You never were.

Mila: Yeah, but I felt like that forever. I mean, at the time I felt like I was sort of conveniently there, and then… I mean I know you liked me for real but..

Stef: It was never that, honestly. When I decided, when I met you at Darkroom and then later when I saw you at the Abbey, I had decided. I was into you, I was going for it. There was nothing for Lindsay or for anybody else. It was just you… And it stayed that way. I wouldn’t have done it if I wasn’t sure. It always made me feel weird that you thought it had anything to do with Lindsay, because that thing was such a distraction, just me trying to figure out what I was doing in LA. It was never going anywhere. Anyway, Lindsay and I stopped talking entirely a few months after that, and all I ever ended up getting outta her was cool friends.

Mila: And this is why Tinder is a life-ruiner.

Stef: It is.

Mila: You know what’s interesting, is that you ask what you miss about me… instead of what you’re definitely not gonna miss.

Stef: Do you wanna get into that?

Mila: (cackling) It’s your turn.

gal pals

Stef: Um… I don’t know if there is anything actually? Oh, you know what? Worrying like a crazy person about you, like you were my personal responsibility. I still worry about you but not the same way… Like when I didn’t hear from you for eight hours and then got a text that said “babe I’m in the hospital LOL.” I had a fucking heart attack. (Ed note: she was fine)

Mila: Well, I thought you should know! You were the first person I thought of. The LOL was so you’d know I was OK!

Stef: Great. Or after we’d broken up when we were in Brooklyn and you texted me at 3 in the morning asking where I lived, and I thought you were gonna come sleep over so I texted you my address, and then I didn’t hear from you for 20 minutes so I called and asked where you were. You’d fallen asleep on the train and you were like, “I don’t know, Far Rockaway?” And then your phone died. I thought you were kidding and then I realized you weren’t and I couldn’t get ahold of you. I was like, well, I have to trust she can figure out how to get home I guess…

Mila: I did. And then I got a bagel.

Stef: Ugh, good for you.

Interview With My Ex-Girlfriend: Brittny

Welcome to Interviews With My Ex-Girlfriend, in which Autostraddle writers get back in touch with their ex-girlfriends to ask them Five Simple Questions:

1. How long did we date?
2. Why did we break up?
3. What did you learn from our relationship?
4. What do you miss most about me?
5. Would you invite me to your wedding (why/why not)?

---

I met Brittny through mutual friends in 2009. My first girlfriend, who I dated for two years, had just broken up with me and I was rebounding with her male coworker to try to make her jealous (as you do). Brit and I met at a house party and I liked her immediately. She was outspoken and smart and really attractive, but was dating someone! In typical gay fashion, we pined over each other for a bit (Brit even recorded a vlog about her crush on me). Her and her boyfriend broke up and we finally confessed our feelings and a relationship was born! We accomplished a lot in the few months we were together, mostly reading Autostraddle articles, making dresses together, getting kicked out of gay bars and watching The L Word.

“sometimes i just want to be gay with you, and watch the l word and listen to tegan and sara and read autostraddle and go to revolution and dance to peaches… you know!?”
-IM from Brit, 2009

Brit was an integral piece of helping me really understand and accept my sexuality, and to this day she remains a really great friend. I’m really lucky to have  her in my life, and glad we were able to overcome things and get to this point. Here is our interview!

Chelsey: Hi!

Brit: Hi. Am I being recorded right now?

Chelsey: You are. We have 19 minutes.

Brit: Awesome.

Chelsey: I can call you back after the 19 minutes if you want to actually talk. You know, not for a website, but…

Brit: Right.

Chelsey: Are you ready?

Brit: I’m ready as I’ll ever be.

Chelsey:  Okay. How long were we together and when?

Brit: Um, let’s see. I feel like it was a couple months.

Chelsey:  Okay…

Brit: Um, and it was in 2009… is that right? Was it 2009?

Chelsey:  I think so. Wasn’t it? It was five years ago.

Brit: Okay. So three or four months in 2009.

Chelsey:  Yea. I’d say. I’m glad we worked that out.

[Brit laughs]

Chelsey:  Why did we break up to the best of your recollection?

Brit: Hmmm. I got pregnant… by a man.

Chelsey:  Yes. Should we mention you were dating said man right before we got together?

Brit: It was an on and off, you know, situation. But yeah, I guess the reason we broke up was because I got knocked up. That’s a good reason…

Chelsey: That’s a pretty good reason.

Brit: I don’t think it was that exactly, but I think it was that and I was going to move back to Maryland. Like a number of things. It was bad timing, I guess.

Chelsey: I think it’s a pretty good reason to break up with somebody. Moving and getting knocked up. I couldn’t really get mad about it.

Brit: Right.

Chelsey: Okay, next question. What do you miss most about me?

Brit: What do I miss the most? I think I miss just hanging out and absolutely doing nothing. Being so comfortable. Like just, like being around you.

Chelsey:  Awww. I miss being around you! You’re so far away.

Brit: Aw. It’s just I can’t… You know, it’s one thing if you can keep in contact with somebody from long distance, but actually being able to hang out with them, it’s completely different. I miss being able to actually be around you physically.

Chelsey:  I feel the same. Okay, next! What about our relationship impacted your later relationships?

BRIT: I feel like it made me want to be more comfortable with people. I feel like it made me not want to have like a superficial relationship with somebody. I felt like with you I was myself and very comfortable and I didn’t have to fake anything with you. So I feel like when I met new people after us that I really had to make sure that, there was no like “trying to impress somebody,” there was no “trying to hide things,” or “pretending I was interested in something I wasn’t,” I wanted to just be myself with people.

Chelsey:  Okay. That’s a good answer. I’m glad!

Brit: I really want to get across the answer to this question. It’s two things really. I was with you initially because I could be myself around you which is so important, but also it was the more difficult route to try and be with you — but sometimes it’s okay to make yourself do the difficult thing in life because in the end it ends up being a good decision. I learned that from our relationship. I’m so glad I’ve had you in my life and still have you in my life to this day.

Chelsey: I am too, for sure. I think we had a definitely uphill, and then obviously downhill battle, but I really learned from our thing that there can be struggles but it doesn’t mean that’s the end, that you can work through them and sometimes the difficult things yield the best and most amazing things. Like our friendship!

Chelsey: Okay, the last question. Would you, at this juncture, invite me to your wedding? Why or why not?

Brit: I totally would. Because, this is funny, but I told Michael that I was doing this with you, that you had asked me to do this interview with you. And I was like “Does that make you uncomfortable at all?” is what I asked him, and he said “Well, you know, if you’re gonna”…I didn’t know what the interview was about at this time, and he was like “Well, if the interview has to do with, you know, a sexual aspect of your relationship, that may make me feel a little uncomfortable, but if not, then it wouldn’t.” He said, “I’ve never met Chelsey in person, but she seems so wonderful,” like how I talk about you, I guess. And, so, I would. ‘Cause I guess, you know, if the person I was going to marry was Michael, then he thinks that you’re lovely, and would want to see you.

Chelsey:  Awww. I think Michael’s lovely and I want to meet him. Not via Facetime.

Chelsey:  Okay. That’s it!

Brit: Oh, okay!

Chelsey: Unless you have anything else you’d like to say.

Brit: No, I don’t think so. Do you want to get off the recording and call me right back?

Chelsey: Yeah!

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Note: As of the publication date of this article, Michael and Brit are married! My girlfriend Erin and I were ABSOLUTELY invited!

Interview With My Ex-Girlfriend: Pate

Welcome to Interviews With My Ex-Girlfriend, in which Autostraddle writers get back in touch with their ex-girlfriends to ask them Five Simple Questions:

1. How long did we date?
2. Why did we break up?
3. What did you learn from our relationship?
4. What do you miss most about me?
5. Would you invite me to your wedding (why/why not)?

---

Dannielle: Before we start… are you wearing three shirts?

Pate: I’m wearing four if you include the jean jacket. It’s cold here!

Dannielle: I’m in Los Angeles where it’s always perfect. Okay. First question: how long did we date?

Pate: We were together for approximately two years I think? Is that wrong?

Dannielle: I always say a year and a half.

Pate: It was from 2007 to 2009.

Dannielle: Oh my God, you’re totally right. Yeah. Holy shit, we dated for so long! Aww, that’s so sweet.

Pate: It is sweet. But you were gone most of the time!

Dannielle: Yeah, I know. But then you moved to Chicago and so we broke up. Okay: why did we break up?

Pate: I just remember I moved to Chicago, I stayed with you for a little bit, and we drove each other insane.

Dannielle: Yes.

Pate: And you were sick and you didn’t want to go away. And I was like: “why?” I was being such a Cancer. And then, I don’t know. We just weren’t getting along. Just little fights. And I remember when you came over and we were like, “yeah, we should probably break up.”

Dannielle: I remember you were out of town and when I was watching your house I accidentally killed one of your plants. I feel like that was a turning point.

Pate: Oh, I don’t remember that. A turning point for you or me?

Dannielle: I don’t remember. I just know that was one of my last memories. Fuck, okay, so we broke up for no reason.

Pate: We were fighting.

Dannielle: Yeah, we were fighting. We were children. Okay, here comes my favorite question. What do you miss most about me?

Pate: Oh, I mean. Definitely your humor, or whatever. That you’re funny.

Dannielle: Thank you.

Pate: You’re welcome! Do I get to hear that too, or no?

Dannielle: You want me to say what I miss most about you? Okay. I feel like you were pretty funny. I feel like we were pretty good about being funny together.

Pate: Yeah.

Dannielle: Also you listened to really good music!

Pate: Well, we both appreciated pop music.

Dannielle: That’s true.

Pate: I don’t know that most people would say that I listen to good music. But I listen to good pop music.

Dannielle: Yeah, there we go! Okay, what about our relationships impacted your later relationships?

Pate: Well I learned that I was frustrated or angry and I wasn’t expressing it. I remember feeling like, “there’s something not quite right here.” And not quite addressing it then, but that was the point that I started to figure it out.

Dannielle: I think it’s kind of the same for me. I hadn’t ever really fought in a relationship before. I wasn’t really good at expressing my emotions or saying anything. Because we fought constantly over everything, I eventually had to learn how to say why I was upset about stuff. Also do you remember the time I threw my phone against a wall?

Pate: No.

Dannielle: Cool.

Pate: If you hadn’t said that I would have been like: “I was the angry one, Dannielle was very calm.” But now I feel great!

Dannielle: I think you were just better at saying when you were angry, which was often.

Pate: Yeah- no. I’m good at saying my feelings, I’m just not always as good at dealing with them.

Dannielle: I’m so much better at dealing with my feelings now. And talking about them instead of just running away.

Pate: Right. Libra is grown up.

Dannielle: Cancer is grown up! Look at you. You’re not letting your feelings take over.

Pate: Well, you know. Just today.

Dannielle: That’s so sweet. Last question: would you, at this juncture, invite me to your wedding? Why or why not?

Pate: Oh, yeah. I mean, I would want to invite you to my wedding and then I would worry if that would offend you in some way. I don’t know, I’ve heard of people who would be offended that their ex invited them to their wedding. But I would totally want you to be there! It would be fun to have you dance! Most people are terrified to dance.

Dannielle: Well, that’s it. I wish we had better memories! Oh wait, I remember, I wasn’t out of the closet when I worked at my job in Charleston, but I had a keychain from you that said “stud muffin.” And someone was like, “what is this keychain?” And I was like, “my girlfriend gave it to me!” And that is how I came out at Poe’s Tavern, so.

Pate: You’re the first and only one to come out at Poe’s Tavern.

Dannielle: Yeah, probably.

Pate: You were probably just feeling the weight of that, you know?

Dannielle: I was. I mean you can’t just have a keychain that says “stud muffin” and not admit that you have a girlfriend, you know. I could have lied, but I wanted to be honest and open with my identity.

Pate: There you go.

Dannielle: And then it all worked out because then we all went to the fair together, remember?

Pate: Yeah.

Dannielle: That’s it, that’s the whole interview.

Pate: By the way, I was looking up your website and I Googled your name. You’ve done this, right? There are just so many baby gays that are searching about you. The drop-down list was insane.

Dannielle: Oh, really?

Pate: Yeah! I was trying to find your website and it was like “Who is Dannielle Owens-Reid dating?” and stuff about where you were from. It’s crazy.

Dannielle: Wow. I didn’t know that.

Pate: You’re mad famous.

Dannielle: Cool. It feels good to be so famous.

Pate: Super famous.

Dannielle: Super famous.

---

Hey A+ members! We’re doing an A+ member survey to get to know a little more about how you feel about the program and what (or who) you’d like to see more of! If you could take a minute to fill it out, we’d be ever-so-grateful! There’s even a surprise at the end. <3

Interview With My Ex-Girlfriend: Jen

Before we get into this interview, we have a little public service announcement: if you like reading interviews with exes, then you’ll probably really enjoy I Broke Up Like This, a new ‘zine from Everyone is Gay and Autostraddle. It’ll help you or your friend get through heartbreak and subsequent madness and will be quite entertaining in the process, we promise! If you’ve already got your copy, then you’ve probably already read pieces of this interview and you’re probably pretty damn excited to read more of it!

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Welcome to Interviews With My Ex-Girlfriend, in which Autostraddle writers get back in touch with their ex-girlfriends to ask them Five Simple Questions:

1. How long did we date?
2. Why did we break up?
3. What did you learn from our relationship?
4. What do you miss most about me?
5. Would you invite me to your wedding (why/why not)?

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Kristin: How long did we date?

Jen: Five years.

K: Why did we break up?

J: Oh god. Because you had an affair with…

K: That is not true!

J: We broke up because we hated each other.

K: No! We didn’t hate each other.

J: Because we fizzled, I guess?

K: Yeah, that’s probably a good way to put it. We stayed together a little too long.

J: Yeah I think so. I think you tried to run a couple of times, and then I sucked you back in.

K: Sucked me back in and then spit me out.

J: Yeah, it wasn’t anything bad, right?

K: It’s funny. Nobody did anything wrong to anybody else, and it was almost worse. Right?

J: I think so, too. It may be easier if somebody cheats, or maybe it isn’t because then maybe you’re like fucked up?

K: But at least you can hate the person or be mad at the person. I feel like it was just devastating because we were like fuck, and then we had to separate our things and be like “whose sweatshirt is this?”

K: What did you learn from our relationship?

J: I learned that I liked cats a lot. And definitely intimacy. And being honest. And sharing close quarters and time with people. I think definitely honesty. Honesty has been important during, after, before, and in staying friends.

K: Yeah, I feel like for both of us it was Communication Practice 101 because really I had been in a relationship once before, but that was my first relationship, and I was 18.

J: Yeah, ours was my first long-term relationship.

K: I feel like I learned how to communicate, and I also learned a lot about myself. I don’t think that I was at all aware of the way that I handled my emotions and just started exploring why…. we were kids. It always surprises me when people get together in their early 20s and stay together just because…we got together, I was 23, and you were what, 28? I just feel like I’m completely a different person, completely different!

J: You definitely learn a lot about yourself… these are my fucking problems, and I was definitely like this is weird about me.

K: Yeah, and when you’re young, you don’t know how your actions affect other people, and you don’t really realize that it’s OK for you to accept somebody else for who they are and work together to work together. Instead, you’re just like, “This is the way I do things, and that’s the right way.”….Okay, question number four — what do you miss most about me?

J: I miss how we used to be able to stay in and hang out and have so much fun, and there was not much need for anything else, you know what I mean? We could just hang out. I feel like we had a lot of fun, and also I think you really enjoyed my family, and that was missing in my other relationships — somebody that was really part of my life in every way.

K: Yeah, totally. We also had so much fun going out. We’d go to dinner and have some wine and then be like, “Do you want to stay out longer?” We would always just have a lot of fun. Okay, the last question is pretty short and straightforward. Would you invite me to your wedding? Why or why not?

J: Yes, absolutely, because we’re friends, and I went to your wedding, and you two fucking assholes are going to have to come to mine.

[Kristin’s wife] Jenny Owen Youngs: I’d like to think that… I’m sorry.

K: No, no. Please, what do you have to say during the interview?

JOY: Nothing.

K: You’d like to think that what?

JOY: I’d like to think that Jen would invite you to her wedding so that I would be there.

J: Yeah exactly — it has nothing to do with you, Kristin. It’s just because I like Jenny.

K: Yeah, for the record, when I got married, dear listener, I mean reader, whatever you are, I had Jen at my wedding, and Randi, my first girlfriend, officiated my wedding. So that’s about as gay as it gets. I’m really glad to hear that I’ll be invited to your wedding.

So, Do you have anything else you want to say in this interview?

J: No, that’s it. Trey [ed.note: Trey is a cat], do you have anything else?

K: Trey was the worst thing that you lost in the breakup.

J: Oh my god. He was. I came home, and the whole apartment was so empty.

K: That break-up was the worst thing that ever happened to me.

J: It sucked.

K: God, it was so sad. I have a very vivid memory of this one particular time. I don’t know if you were home or not home. You must have been home, because why would I cry if nobody could watch me, you know?

JOY: HA! My wife.

K: But I remember going to the gym and coming back to our apartment, and it was like when everything was horrible, and we were splitting up shit and whatever, and I don’t know if I picked something up from the floor or why I wound up going towards the floor, and I just remember looking at the floorboards and being like, “My home, my whole home is gone,” and just collapsing in sobs. It was the fucking saddest thing.

J: It was so sad. I remember coming home one night. You were sleeping on the couch with Trey, and I was sleeping in the bed, and I just lost it. It was just so depressing. The whole process and then after.

K: Yeah, it was the worst. There was a very long time where I remember just crying on the subway with other people on the train, and I couldn’t. I had no control.

J: Yeah, I was the same way. It was a challenge to fucking function. A hundred fucking percent.

K: But we made it through! And now we’re playing Super Mario 3 with my wife, so…

J: Totally. It was totally worth it, as bad as it sucked in trying to be friends. But now I feel like I know. Even with my ex right now, it’s like I don’t care how bad this sucks, I’ve been through this before, and it’s totally worth it.

Interview With My Ex-Girlfriend: Allison Weiss

Welcome to Interviews With My Ex-Girlfriend, in which Autostraddle writers get back in touch with their ex-girlfriends to ask them Five Simple Questions:

1. How long did we date?
2. Why did we break up?
3. What did you learn from our relationship?
4. What do you miss most about me?
5. Would you invite me to your wedding (why/why not)?

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Dannielle: How long were we together and when?

Allison: We were together for approximately eight months in the year 2010. From the end of 2009 into 2010.

Dannielle: Yeah. Cool. Good answer. Correct. I don’t know, it’s not a game show. Okay: why did we break up to the best of your recollection?

Allison: This is the fun one. Well, at the time I thought that we broke up because — wait, I’m sorry, I’m trying not to be awkward.

Dannielle: I feel like awkward is good for this, though, right?

Allison: Yeah, I feel like I was a tiny baby and you weren’t a baby but we were both much younger.

Dannielle: We were so young.

Allison: We were so young and at the time I thought that — as a tiny child does think — that you were not into it. In a span of one day. Then it was over. But then time passed, and as I grew into an adult, I don’t know? I think maybe what happened is we were just too young to know how to navigate the natural ups-and-downs of a relationship.

Dannielle: Yeah, probably.

Allison: And it got weird. Also we were in a long-distance relationship which I feel like is important to note for readers.

Dannielle: Yeah.

Allison: So we saw each other for like, what? Of the eight months we were dating, which also sounds really short, it was really—

Dannielle: It was over, like three seasons, you know? It felt like much longer.

Allison: That’s also not a long time, just so you know.

Dannielle: Well, it seems long.

Allison: It felt like much longer.

Dannielle: Yeah, it felt longer.

Allison: Also it was really serious.

Dannielle: Yeah, it was really serious.

Allison: It was serious business.

Dannielle: Yeah!

Allison: I feel dumb sometimes when I talk to friends who have gone through breakups where they were with their person for four years and I’m like, “Well, when Dannielle and I broke up…” Because we only dated for eight months but time isn’t a thing. I believe Taylor Swift said it once in an Instagram comment to one of her fans that valuing a relationship on the length of time versus the quality is not a good system. I don’t know how she said it.

Dannielle: Well, it’s brilliant because I always say that, first of all, everything that happened after our breakup made it more intense. But I feel like my relationship with you was more important than my relationship with [name redacted], even though I dated her for two years.

Allison: Yeah. Exactly.

Dannielle: But it’s because we were best friends.

Allison: Yeah.

Dannielle: We were just supposed to be best friends, you know?

Allison: Also I feel like long distance relationships are incredibly intense because you only see that person for two days out of the month. I think we saw each other once a month.

Dannielle: Well, there was one period where I lived in Charleston and you lived in Athens for two months before I moved to New York.

Allison: But even in those two months we saw each other maybe every week, for the weekend or something.

Dannielle: Yeah, you’re right.

Allison: So the entire relationship becomes talking on the phone and missing each other.

Dannielle: It’s true.

Allison: And then you moved to New York and shit got real.

Dannielle: Yup.

Allison: Really fast.

Dannielle: Very fast. And then you moved to New York.

Allison: And then I moved to New York and shit got even more real. We broke up literally the day after I moved to New York.

Dannielle: Yeah. I think it got weird the second you got there.

Allison: Oh yeah, the moment. The moment I stepped out of the moving truck and saw you, I was like: “something’s not right.”

Dannielle: Yeah, that sucked.

Allison: Yeah, that did suck.

Dannielle: Okay. This is a good one! What do you miss most about me?

Allison: This is such a good one. Well, as of now nothing because we’re friends again.

Dannielle: Yay!

Allison: What did I miss most about you though? I feel like, with me in particular, I love people. I have a lot of friends. I really enjoy them. But there’s only been a handful of people in my entire life who I’ve met and was instantly best friends with. And you were one of those people. So it was really hard to have you in my life and then have you so gone. We couldn’t talk for three or four years because it was just too intense.

Dannielle: Yeah, that was super hard. And it sucked because I feel like there were so many jokes that you and I got that other people didn’t get, you know what I mean? So I would always see shit and- oh wait, I want to talk to them about the Titanic.

Allison: The Titanic!

Dannielle: Okay. We had a memory yesterday. I think you should start it because I like the beginning of the story from your point of view.

Allison: Okay, so it was Thanksgiving day and I was spending Thanksgiving in New York. Thanksgiving was an important holiday in the history of our relationship because we met over Thanksgiving — did we meet over Thanksgiving?

Dannielle: We didn’t meet over Thanksgiving, we —

Allison: We met a month before, and then we texted each other constantly for about a month or so and then I was in New York for Thanksgiving, and you drove your car all the way to New York from Chicago or something insane.

Dannielle: Yeah, it was me and Deanna. She drove and we met each other and stayed in some apartment. That was when you and I had crushes on each other.

Allison: So it was an important thing. Then after we broke up, I was spending Thanksgiving alone, in New York, without my family. So me and my best friend Jenny Peck got super high and went to see Twilight. I think it was Breaking Dawn or something, it wasn’t even the first one. It was just some random Twilight movie? So we get to the movie theater and it was completely empty except for two other people. We were creeping down the aisles giggling, and we look down and we see that it’s you and your new girlfriend.

Dannielle: Yep.

Allison: And I was just like: “hey!” and you were like: “hey!” And we were definitely not speaking at this point.

Dannielle: We were not cool.

Allison: And it was super awkward. And then me and Jenny found our spot in the theatre. Then the previews came on, and there was a preview for Titanic 3-D.

Dannielle: And this was the first announcement of it. It wasn’t a huge thing yet. And I remember sitting there next to my girlfriend, and I was thinking, “Allison loves this and I hate it.” I was just such a baby about it.

Allison: Oh my God. And I was on the other end of the theatre thinking: “I fucking love Titanic and Dannielle hates Titanic. I can’t believe she hates Titanic, she sucks.”

Dannielle: Yeah. And last night we realized that we remembered having the same thought at the same time.

Allison: It’s so good. I’m glad we were thinking about each other.

Dannielle: Yeah, that’s sweet.

Allison: It’s so sweet.

Dannielle: So romantic.

Allison: I still don’t understand how you don’t like Titanic.

Dannielle: I’m willing to watch it again.

Allison: You’re not going to like it.

Dannielle: Yeah, I know.

Allison: I don’t think it’s good if you didn’t love it in seventh grade.

Dannielle: Oh, so it’s purely nostalgia good?

Allison: I feel like maybe that.

Dannielle: Yeah. I forgot what we were talking about before we told that story…what do you miss about me?

Allison: What do you miss about me?

Dannielle: I mean, you just fucking got it. In a way that a lot of people didn’t get.

Allison: Yeah, that was pretty cool.

Dannielle: Yeah, we were just best friends. So when we broke up it wasn’t like I had an ex-girlfriend, it was like I had a best friend that wasn’t friends with me anymore.

Allison: Yeah, that sucked.

Dannielle: It did suck.

Allison: I’m glad we’re friends now.

Dannielle: Yeah, thank God.

Allison: And doing an interview like it’s no thing.

Dannielle: Yeah, like it doesn’t even matter. Okay, next question: what about our relationship impacted your later relationships?

Allison: Oh man. Well, you were the best. So everyone sucked, and it took me until I met my current girlfriend to fully get over you. Because everyone in between you was just shitty OkCupid dates. People who just didn’t get it.

Dannielle: Yeah.

Allison: People who weren’t funny or fun enough, you know?

Dannielle: Yeah.

Allison: So I guess that’s kind of good. I think maybe it’s important to note that you were my first girlfriend. And also you were my first actual relationship. Everyone before that was unrequited love.

Dannielle: Right.

Allison: So, in my first dating scenario I dated someone who was so incredibly compatible with me that I didn’t settle for anything less than that in future dating scenarios. I feel like, I don’t know how people are, but I assume that you date a bunch, then you date someone for six months or a year and go: “Oh, this isn’t working.” You have to get to know somebody to fall for them, but….

Dannielle: But you were just like, “No, fuck that, why would I spend a year trying to…”

Allison: Yeah, yeah. Why would I try and force myself to like somebody?

Dannielle: Yeah, I feel like I dated so many people who didn’t get it for so long.

Allison: Yeah.

Dannielle: Because you were the only one of anyone I dated who fucking got it, legit, best friend got it.

Allison: I’m cool.

Dannielle: So when I dated people after you, I was like, “of course it’s not going to feel like that,” because we were just best friends. We were meant to be just best friends. Until I met Julia and I was like: “what?!” Because you can have all of it. But how would either of us know if we didn’t date each other?

Allison: Yes. Thank the Lord. There you go. Is that it? Is that the whole interview?

Dannielle: No! Would you, at this juncture, invite me to your wedding? Why or why not?

Allison: Hell yeah!

Dannielle: Yeah!

Allison: Why? Because you’re the best!

Dannielle: Yeah!

Allison: Also, you and my current girlfriend are such good friends too. I feel like it wouldn’t be a party without you there.

Dannielle: Fuck no! If you and Joanna got married today and you could only invite two people, it better be me and Julia.

Allison: Fuck you Mom and Dad!

Dannielle: Ha! We should end there, I think.

Interview With My Ex-Girlfriend: Bridget

Welcome to Interviews With My Ex-Girlfriend, in which Autostraddle writers get back in touch with their ex-girlfriends to ask them Five Simple Questions:

1. How long did we date?
2. Why did we break up?
3. What did you learn from our relationship?
4. What do you miss most about me?
5. Would you invite me to your wedding (why/why not)?

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I met Bridget on AOL Instant Messenger through mutual friends when I was 14. While it feels a little silly to say that now, at the time it was the biggest, craziest thing that had ever happened to me. We dated for a few years, under weird circumstances you’ll read about shortly, and had the kind of breakup where everybody feels a little tortured for a while. We had a secret internet relationship before that was really a common thing, and so we had to have our secret internet breakup with very little support. Eventually, we ended up in the same city for college, and somehow we turned our weird relationship into the strongest, best friendship I’ve ever had. Pretty cool how that works out, huh?

Anyway, I called Bridget the other day so I could make her uncomfortable by asking personal questions about the time in our lives when we were arguably at our neediest and most ridiculous. It was a blast.

Kaitlyn: First, I have a confession. I, uhh, forgot your cell phone number, and I went to type it into Google Talk, and I had to look it up, and I feel really ashamed.

Bridget: You shouldn’t be ashamed of that. When was the last time you had to type in a number at all?

K:  I feel like I called you every day, three thousand times a day for two years. I should probably know your number.

B: Yeah, I definitely know your number.

K: Okay, so I have five questions that I’m supposed to ask you, but we can also talk about other things if you want.

B: It’s not gonna be like that episode of Sex and the City where Carrie gets wrangled into it and it’s like, “Single and Fabulous,” is it?

K: I don’t watch Sex and the City, but I’m gonna just go ahead and say no, it’s not gonna be like that. So. The first question is, how long were we together, and when?

B: Okay. Uhhh. I don’t know, how long were we together? I guess we started dating when I was … I don’t know, was I a sophomore in high school?

K: Um … no, you were a freshman. I was a sophomore.

B: Okay. So, I don’t know, wasn’t it three years?

K: Yeah, something like that. We started dating when we were 14, right?

B: Okay, yeah.

K: And then we broke up for the last time, right, like three months before my 17th birthday.

B: Oh really? Okay.

K: Yeah, remember?

B: Well, I knew it was junior year of high school.

K: That we broke up?

B: Yeah. My junior year.

K: Right. My senior year. So that was … what year was that? When were we 14?

B: I think I was a freshman in 2006.

K:  Yeah, that sounds right.

B: And so it would have been like 2008, 2009.

K: Okay. Why did we break up, to the best of your recollection?

B: I was actually thinking about this before you called me! Because I knew you were gonna ask, because you said you were gonna ask, and uh. We were long distance for pretty much the entirety of our relationship, and things were pretty bad. I kind of forget. Or like, after we broke up I was so bummed out and I was like, “Oh, things were so good.” I think we were fighting probably every day, I don’t know.

K: At least!

B: Yeah! And I think partially, you were going away to college — not that it really made that much of a difference because we were already long distance — but like, I was going to still be in high school, and things were not good anyway. So you dumped me!

K: I did! I don’t know, I feel like it’s important to talk about, like … our relationship was so weird because like you said, it was long distance. It was a secret for both of us. We basically started dating because of MySpace, because we were MySpace friends through Cali and everyone.

B: Yeah, or like, through AIM kinda.

K: Exactly.

B: I think it’s weird for straight people or people of a different generation, but I think it’s kind of typical of gay kids, especially now because of Tumblr and stuff like that.

K: Oh yeah. The cool thing now is like, people will meet on Tumblr and start dating and like actually move to be together. We never really had that option, and I don’t think we ever really thought about it. We talked about college, but it was so far away from being a reality that I kind of got tired of waiting for it to happen. It felt like we were still kids.

B: Yeah, there were a lot of things about our relationship that were kind of probably contingent on the time in our lives that it was.

K: So what do you miss most about me? I want to hear this!

B: Oh, God. I don’t know. It was nice that when we were together, we kind of had our own things going on. As much as you can in high school, so I guess we didn’t have that much going on. But we had our own separate lives because we were long distance, but then it was nice to check in with someone at the end of the day, and have somebody that cared to listen about stuff that happened. As opposed to being with somebody in the same place, we had new things to share at the end of our day.

K: So what about our relationship that we had has impacted other relationships you’ve had since then?

B: Well, I think the fact that our relationship was kind of weird, the fact that we were long distance and, like you said, it was kind of a secret from people that we knew. [So] in relationships, my experience wasn’t typical. I didn’t date somebody at my high school and then break up when we went to college. Or like a bunch of my friends were still dating their high school boyfriends or girlfriends when they went away to college. So I feel like I didn’t have a typical kind of first relationship. I guess it has impacted my relationships. I don’t really know how I would say, but it has.

K: You haven’t really been in a serious relationship since then, right? Like you’ve had relationships with people, but you — I don’t know. It sort of fucked with me the same way, where like, it was a really intense first relationship, and we were just so crazy about each other. We were teenagers, and after that, the bar was set really high for me. I’ve always demanded a high level of communication, and I have high expectations of how people will talk to me and what kind of questions they’ll ask me. I really expect someone to be there for me in the way that we were for each other, even though that’s not how everyone does relationships. My relationships are really intense, because my first one ever was, and I got used to it.

B: Yeah. Yeah, and I think it was kind of weird because you’ve basically been in relationships since we broke up. Since you got to college you’ve been in pretty serious relationships, and I haven’t been in a serious relationship. I don’t really know why we came out of it with opposite [experiences]. I don’t know.

K: I don’t know either. So the last one they want me to ask is, would you at this juncture invite me to your wedding, and why or why not?

B: Yeah, absolutely.

K: Why?

B: I think a situation where you wouldn’t invite an ex to a wedding is like, if things got really bad and you never really got a chance to have any closure. If they’re a negative presence at your wedding, of course you wouldn’t want them there. Or I guess if one of the people in the relationship still had feelings for the other, that wouldn’t be good to have them at your wedding, either.

We’re weird friends, but we are friends. I would have you at my wedding. You’d be one of the first people I’d invite. I wouldn’t think twice about it.

K: That’s the other question I wanted to ask: Why do you think we’re friends still?

B: Hah. Uh. I don’t know, our relationship was kind of atypical and maybe not — I don’t want to say not real, but kind of not real, because it was so weird. Us not being in the same place, and maybe we didn’t even really know each other that well. So I guess we’re just good friends because that was the only way that could have worked. Maybe we were always just good friends.

K: I don’t know. I get what you’re saying, I guess. But we were in the same place for the big things. You were my first kiss, and we planned all that stuff out so intricately. Which was always sort of funny because I don’t think people who are in the same place talk about stuff the way that we did.

B: Yeah, but 16-year-olds that are attracted to each other have unrealistic dreams about going to the same college and getting married and stuff like that. I think there is a really important reason why that doesn’t happen, because when I think about how we are compared to how we were when we were 16, we’re totally different people. I don’t even want to imagine how bad the relationship would be if we had forced it and stayed together, because it was pretty bad in 2008. But when I think about you now, I think you’re so different than you were when we were teenagers. I think there’s a reason why that generally doesn’t work out.

K: Yeah, totally. And we actually weren’t friends for a long time. It was really hard for us to figure out how to be friends. Yes, our relationship was us being good friends and talking all the time, but it was a very intense friendship where we shared every single thought we had all the time, and like everything that happened in our day, we told the other person about. It was hard to step that back and learn how to be just friends. It was really hard for a while not to call you every single day. Or like text you every two seconds.

B: Yeah, I kind of forget that now. I guess it would have been like a year that it was pretty horrible. Because I think I was still attracted to you, and you felt shitty about making things so bad for me, and you would try to like become my friend, and it was probably like, I was talking it the wrong way kind of thing.

K: Oh yeah. It was definitely too soon that I forced you to be my friend.

B: Yeah, I think I needed to take time. I think it also helped to be attracted to anybody else, and senior year, even though I had a straight crush that I took all my time and money trying to make that a reality —

K: Who was that? Was that [name]?

B: Yeah, but don’t put her name in it! You know, we went on quote-unquote dates, but of course she was straight and stuff, and I don’t think really attracted to me. But it was good to keep wasting my time by doing something other than obsessing about a relationship that I was romanticizing anyway. I think it just takes time. And then it’s also good if you’re not attracted to the person anymore, because I think it’s kind of impossible to move on otherwise.

K: I think it’s good that we ended up both living in Chicago, but I’m glad that it didn’t happen for at least a year.

B: It was probably a good thing that we both ended up in Chicago, because it changed the dynamic of our relationship. Like, us hanging out for instance was so different  than talking on the phone. One of my friends from high school asked me recently when she came up to visit, she was like, “Did you move to Chicago to try to get Kaitlyn back?” but it was actually my idea first!

K: It was. You’re the reason I went to Chicago, and then we broke up and I still wanted to go.

B: I mean, it’s a good thing we didn’t end up at the same school, but Chicago’s so big so we weren’t in the same social circles. It was cool that we could hang out with each other.

K: How did you feel when we started hanging out in person? That was weird to me. I still wanted to plan out every moment of when we were gonna hang out, because that’s what I was used to doing. But then like, I’d get there and we wouldn’t know what to do, and it was like, “Alright, guess we’re gonna go eat food now!”

B: It was difficult for me because it was my freshman year, and I didn’t know anybody in Chicago, and when I first moved into the dorms, I didn’t see myself making friends at first, which I think everybody kind of goes through. I wanted to reach out to you, but I didn’t want to fall back into anything. That was difficult when we first moved back, because it was like, am I gonna have feelings for Kaitlyn? And then I think I kind of did for a little bit, but then I started to make friends and feel comfortable at [school], and our friendship became more normal.

K: Definitely. I think it’s funny when we slip back into the, like, being too involved in each other’s lives still happens sometimes, like trying to tell each other what to do. It feels like every time that happens, then we have a fight, and we’re unhappy. That kind of to me is always telling that if we were still dating, it would not be good. We don’t agree on how to solve conflicts!

B: Yeah and it’s funny because I don’t argue with any of my friends. I’m not confrontational. But then sometimes, and it was really rarely [Kaitlyn’s note: It was not that rarely], we would get in an argument, and then my roommates or my friends would be like, “Who are you talking to like that? It sounds like someone bickering with their girlfriend.”

K: The times when people were most like, “Do you and Bridget still have feelings for each other?” were when we would fight and shout at each other on the phone.

B: Yeah, how horrible is that?

K: Over the stupidest shit! I still don’t get it. I’m glad we haven’t fought in a while, because the most emotionally draining fights I’ve ever had are when we’re just yelling at each other, and I feel like neither of us really knows why we’re mad, but we just get caught up in it.

B: That’s a pretty typical thing that happens in any relationship. When you’re just having a bad day and you bicker with each other, and then you really hurt each other. The way that you solve it when you’re in a relationship is like, “Oh, I love you, blah blah blah.” But you can’t really do that in a friendship. It’s weird to have relationship fights but then resolve it like friends. Like, “Okay well, sorry I pissed you off. Talk to you later!”

K: It is weird. I think we got the hang of it.

B: We used to fight like all the time because it was the only way we really knew how to talk to each other. I think we’ve figured out how to talk like friends now.

K: We’ve figured out how to listen to each other’s problems without trying to solve them, which is a thing that you used to say to me all the time. “I just want to call and complain because I’m bummed out,” and instead I would try to tell you how to fix it and you would get really mad.

B: Right, because in a normal friendship, you just listen to somebody, and you don’t necessarily — like, you give them advice, but you don’t try to correct what they’re doing. You’re just like, “Oh, that sucks, that’s bad.” But in a relationship, you’re like, “Hey, you need to change what you’re doing! That’s why it’s bad!”

K: Well, those are all the questions that I had. Is there anything else you wanted to talk about?

B: Well, I was thinking about whoever created this as a project for Autostraddle is probably just somebody trying to get their ex back. Like an excuse to contact their exes.

K: I mean, I have several exes that I would not feel comfortable doing this with. But with you, it’s like, “Eh, I can ask Bridget anything. Not a big deal.”

B: Yeah. It’s like a stereotypically lesbian thing to do, to hash every moment of your relationship out. And it’s probably harmful to do, but I think there’s something kind of good about figuring out what was good and what was bad about your relationship, in order to move forward from it.

K: I think it depends on how you do it. Right now we’re not doing it to go back and dig through things like, “Oh, you were such a bitch to me.” We’re doing it to learn about our friendship.

B: Yeah, and it’s been long enough now. It’s been, how many years?

K: We’ve been not-dating for longer than we ever were dating in our friendship, and that’s weird to me.

B: I can’t actually remember why we fought so often, what was so bad. I don’t think anything actually was so bad.

K: It wasn’t, at all.

Interview With My Ex-Girlfriend: El

Welcome to Interviews With My Ex-Girlfriend, in which Autostraddle writers get back in touch with their ex-girlfriends to ask them Five Simple Questions:

1. How long did we date?
2. Why did we break up?
3. What did you learn from our relationship?
4. What do you miss most about me?
5. Would you invite me to your wedding (why/why not)?

---

Dannielle: We’re trying to figure out right now when we met.

El: The way I remember it is that we dated for about four months, ten years ago. Is that right?

Dannielle: Yeah.

El: And we broke up because you were highly negligent of me as a girlfriend.

Dannielle: Because you cheated on me.

El: Because you were highly negligent of me as a girlfriend!

Dannielle: No! Not before you cheated on me! We had a blast before you cheated on me!

El: What?

Dannielle: We did. We went to Belize, we went to New York.

El: Oh yeah, that was all fun.

Dannielle: We had fun, like, putting each other in our top eight on Myspace.

El: You didn’t appreciate me when I made latkes.

Dannielle: Well. I don’t even remember that, so.

El: Really?

Dannielle: No! I don’t.

El: Seriously? The pictures are on Facebook! The whole house smelled like fried food for two days.

Dannielle: Aww, that’s sweet though. I’m sorry I neglected you.

El: It’s okay. I’m sorry I cheated on you. It was a hard breakup. Especially with how long it took us to be friends again.

Dannielle: Yeah.

El: This breakup lingered.

Dannielle: Yeah. I wish I remembered the months and stuff…it was like we broke up in February or March, but I don’t remember not talking to you until probably the summer.

El: Then there was a summer visit that was very confusing.

Dannielle: Yeah. That was rough.

El: That was really rough. And then you moved to Chicago.

Dannielle: I did. Yeah. And that helped. With the space. We stopped speaking to each other and then I moved to another state so…if anyone needs advice on breakups.

El: But it took us about ten years to really hang out. We actually haven’t hung out one-on-one since then.

Dannielle: Shit. I guess we haven’t! That was so long ago. We were different people. What do you think has changed about you the most since we dated?

El: I think I care about people a lot more.

Dannielle: That makes sense. No offense, but.

El: No, no, it’s true. People in my present don’t understand when I say that I was Lindsay Lohan, basically. When I was younger, it was always about whatever the hell I wanted. I didn’t care about anyone, really. My sense of self has really strengthened. I know who I am. I don’t expect as much out of people. Yeah. I would say I’m just a better person now that I’m older. At least I hope so!

Dannielle: I feel like we both have our shit together a lot more. I feel the same. I feel like my relationships with people are very different and much better because I think I have more patience and understanding for other people’s point of view. Like I look back at us, and you kissed someone when you were twenty and wasted and I thought: “fuck that.”

El: No, I remember because…

Dannielle: No, here’s what happened. You ready?

El: No! There’s so much!

Dannielle: There’s so much. Okay. See what happened was our ex-girlfriends were dating each other and they knew that El was going to a club and they were like: “I’m positive that El is going to cheat on Danielle because that’s what she does.” And then you were so annoyed by that. And I was too, I thought it was really offensive that they would say that. So you were like, “would you be mad if I kissed Jess?” and I was like, “No, go for it.” Then you were like, “I would never do that to you.” But the next day you called me and you were like: “I cheated on you.” And I didn’t know how to deal with my emotions at that point in my life so I was just like: “it’s fine.”

El: And then instead of working through it, you got a crush on someone else.

Dannielle: Oh, yeah. Yeah.

El: And then you spent all your time with her instead of actually telling me what was bothering you and then I couldn’t be jealous because I definitely made out with someone else.

Dannielle: Yeah. I dealt with that really, really poorly. I wasn’t honest with my feelings and that put you in a position where you couldn’t be. That’s something that’s changed about me for sure. I’m very honest about my feelings now.

El: I’m a pretty loyal person.

Dannielle: Wow. We’ve grown so much.

El: I’m sorry!

Dannielle: I’m sorry! I’m glad we’re friends now. Look everyone, you can be like us!

El: It might take ten years.

Dannielle: But you have to grow as a person.

 

Dannielle: Next question. What do you miss most about me?

El: Your sense of humor.

Dannielle: Oh, thank you!

El: Also your taste in music.

Dannielle: Oh, really?

El: Oh, wait, let me take that back. Your taste in music ten years ago.

Dannielle: Today she got in my car and I was listening to Justin Bieber.

El: This is true.

Dannielle: Oh man. I used to be so cool. Alright. What about our relationship impacted your later relationships?

El: I felt like my sex drive was too high. It impacted me because I think yours was much lower than mine…

Dannielle: Yeah.

El: And I felt self conscious about how high I was discovering mine was, because at the time I was eighteen or nineteen.

Dannielle: Right.

El: I think because of my initial experience being with somebody who has such a different level than me, it’s something I still think about today, like: “Is this going to be too much for them to handle?”

Dannielle: I also had a really weird relationship with sex until very recently because, I don’t know. A lot of shame is placed on it. Also especially being a girl who likes girls in the South, no one tells you anything. You’re not taught anything. I also dated a couple of people who thought sex was weird. So I just felt really weird about it in general, and I kind of stifled that part of myself. I’m better now! I love sex now! I’m sorry that it affected you.

El: Ha! But what are you supposed to do when you grow up in South Carolina?

Dannielle: I don’t fucking know.

El: I don’t either. Wait. Did you date a lot of straight girls before me?

Dannielle: Almost everyone that I dated I’ve been their first girlfriend.

El: Oh, well no wonder. That would make me have a weird relationship with sex.

Dannielle: Yeah?

El: I think so.

Dannielle: Maybe. I think growing up in the South ruins you.

El: Abstinence-only education.

Dannielle: Yeah, what are you doing, world?

Dannielle: Okay. Would you, at this juncture, invite me to your wedding? Why or why not?

El: Yes!

Dannielle: Yaaaay!

El: You can officiate it! Don’t you do that?

Dannielle: Oh, fuck yeah! That would be so fun.

El: But I’m nowhere near getting married right now. I’m single.

Dannielle: Oh yeah! She’s single. Ready to mingle! Ladies!

El: I won’t cheat on you!

Dannielle: And if you cheat on me, I won’t neglect you, everyone. Wait. I’m not single, I’m sorry.

Interview With My Ex-Girlfriend: Laura

Welcome to Interviews With My Ex-Girlfriend, in which Autostraddle writers get back in touch with their ex-girlfriends to ask them Five Simple Questions:

1. How long did we date?
2. Why did we break up?
3. What did you learn from our relationship?
4. What do you miss most about me?
5. Would you invite me to your wedding (why/why not)?

---

 

I fell so hard for my first girlfriend. Like wait by my window, watch her as she walked to class, and wish I had the courage to talk to her kind of hard. It was 2000, and we were freshmen at Goucher College in Baltimore. Pretty much babies, little awkward babies. I pursued a friendship with her that involved poetry slams, arguments about the Yankees, and a lot of nervous phone calls that led me to hanging up when she called. This was not the way to start love. She started the love. She called out my giant crush and dared me to kiss her. So I did and then we dated for almost two years.

 

Two years of good love, of huge fights, and deep real conversations about ourselves. I learned so much about how to love my body from her. And then well, you know, we broke up. It happens. But we remained friends, she’s my sister now. I will always know this woman and I will always love her. The way you love someone who’s known you when you still had your little kid face, the way you love someone when they were your first love, the way you love someone who knows your momma. We always reach out to each other during the shit times and the glorious times.

So when she was headed back to New York, I knew we’d spend some time together. More than a decade has passed since we were fiery, goofy lovebirds, so I was excited to interview her for this series. I wanted to know how she felt about us now and then. We went to City Limits Diner to catch up and then hit up my spot in the Bronx for the official interview.

---

Gabby:  So, you are my ex-girlfriend, correct?

Laura: I — well that’s not really a nice way of saying it.

Laura: I’m like… your friend.

Gabby: Okay.

Laura: And we used to be together.

Gabby: Yes. When we were babies.

Laura: When we were babies!

Gabby: Ok. So how long were we together and when?

Laura: I think we were together two years. Is that right? In the first two years of college.

Gabby: Yeah. That’s it?

Laura: I mean, I don’t know when the starting point would be because I thought I was straight for part of it!

Gabby: Part of our relationship?

Laura: Well I don’t know, do you remember in the beginning where we were like, fooling around, and I was like “oh, I’m just straight and this is what I do,” and you got pissed off.

Gabby: And I left! Yeah!

Laura: So I don’t know if you count that period of time.

Gabby: Well I don’t know, ’cause I was hooking up with boys too. Remember, I went home, hooked up with boys…

Laura: Yeah, yeah. Right, right! So I was like “Oh, we’re just friends who do this sometimes.”

Gabby: So then we’d say it started second semester, freshmen year. Until?

Laura: I guess the summer after sophomore year. Right? So that was like, more than two years.

Gabby: So, why did we break up to the best of your recollection?

Laura: It was time.

(Much laughter ensues.)

Gabby: Why was it time?

Laura: I don’t know. You were doing your thing on the west coast, and I was in the theater program. All I remember is that I was on the phone with you, you were supposed to go to the dentist, and I was like, “you need to go to the dentist!” and you didn’t want to go. I’m sure you had some infection. We were fighting on the phone across the country about going to the dentist and I guess we’d just reached the end. I don’t think at that time in our relationship I really knew what was going on or why.

Gabby: I remember that! I remember this fight! It was funny ’cause the dental assistant was so hot. I saw her a bunch of times, nothing ever happened but she was really hot. It’s funny that you say that though ’cause I remember it that the one thing in the conversation that triggered break-up talk is when you got really quiet and were like, “I don’t even know myself. What am I supposed to do in this relationship?”

Laura: Wow.

(Gabby laughs)

Laura: I guess I knew something.

Gabby: And I was you know, super melodramatic! I was like, “If you don’t know yourself, then I don’t think we can be together.”

Laura: That’s wise, also. We were so wise in our ignorance.

Gabby: Yeah!

Laura: I don’t remember any of that! But that sounds wise.

Gabby: Three: what do you miss the most about me?

Laura: I miss that you have known me through so many stages of my life.

Gabby: Hmmm

Laura: So I miss that you know a lot of deep wounded parts of me and you loved me anyway. Oh, and also I miss that we’re able to connect around art and social issues and how they’re related. That’s really important to me. I forget that part of myself a lot but I get to remember it when we connect again.

Gabby: Word. I feel funny interviewing you, I feel like it should be a mutual interview!

Laura: I’ll ask you the same things.

Gabby: Okay! Um, what about our relationship has impacted your later relationships?

Laura: Well, I just said this to you, but I didn’t say it on tape, but I think that learning about race and having that conversation, was a big thing when I’m looking back at myself and where I was in my life. And like, learning how to be with other people’s pain? And to honor them where they are. I don’t think that makes any sense! What were we talking about before —

Gabby: You said I used to get angry.

Laura: You were the only Puerto Rican at Goucher, this all-white school, and, you know, you had some anger! Now I feel it was totally justifiable and understandable but at the time I didn’t know how to be around anger like that. I learned about how to love with you. I was learning about love and how to love people, and I knew that I believed in love, and that love was the ultimate answer, but I didn’t know how the anger could be a part of that. And I think that I couldn’t do it then. I couldn’t love your anger. But I think that’s the point, really. I don’t think I could’ve been in another relationship after that if I hadn’t had that experience with you and loved you. ‘Cause I loved you anyway. I just didn’t know that I didn’t have the tools for that. I grew up in Westchester, it’s one of the richest counties in the country. I’d say it’s the whitest, but now that I’ve been in the Midwest I realize it was more racially diverse compared to a lot of other places like it.

Gabby: That’s funny ’cause I feel like at the time, I knew why I was angry, but I didn’t really know the full layers of it. I didn’t think I knew why I was angry beyond being the only one here. You know what I mean? I didn’t know the institutional part or the history of it. You know what I mean? So, I don’t know if even I had the tools to help either one of us navigate it.

Laura: I don’t think either one of us did.

Gabby: We had no tools! We were lesbians without tools!

Laura: Yeah, man, we were just… I don’t know.

Gabby: Baby dykes.

Laura: Yeah!

Gabby: The last question: would you, at this juncture, invite me to your wedding? Why or why not?

Laura: Absolutely I would. You’re my prior beloved! You’re the only former beloved I am talking to right now.

Gabby: Yeah, you too, actually. High five for not being, like, fucked up people.

Laura: Yeah! I definitely would. Because, again, you’re like my sister now…

Gabby: Yeah. Right? How did we do that?

Laura: I think it took a lot of time. Like there was a long time we weren’t. We keep coming back, and then we get pissed at each other for whatever reason and then…

Gabby: Right.

Laura: Then we always come back. Like family. You know what I mean? Family is such a pain in the ass, but they’re always around!

Gabby: I just can’t get you outta my life! Nah, I’m just kidding. I think that concludes our interview — oh, wait, it says based on your answers to the questions, I might have other tangents I’d like to embark on. Okay, so then let me ask you a question: what was difficult about being in a relationship with me?

Laura: We were too fiery together, both of us. I think. I mean, we fought a lot! Again — we didn’t have tools, so neither of us knew what the fuck was going on. But I also think both of our families kind of communicate in that way? So we were just like, well, we’ll just yell at each other! I mean, that’s what you do!

Gabby: Right, the Italian Catholic and Puerto Rican Pentecostal …

Laura: Yeah, we just yelled at each other. And then it was like…

Gabby: Now we should have sex!

Laura: Kaitlyn, Matt and Megan always knew when something was up because it was always like ’cause it was always like [mimics fighting noises] “I’m not talking to her!” Then someone’s crying. They’re like, “Oh, Jesus Christ!” I know, I get it, I’m white, but in that whole school, the two of us screaming together at each other? I think that was just exhausting. That’s probably why we broke up.

Gabby: And let the record show, you have never dated a Puerto Rican since!

Laura: I have not. I dated a Mayflower white person.

Gabby: “I dated a Pilgrim after you.”

Laura: That was really awkward. It was really awkward. Like, it didn’t work at all, I couldn’t identify.

Gabby: It’s two sides of the same coin. Different sides.

Laura: What do you mean?

Gabby: Two types of white, right?

Laura: I mean, culturally. Like, culturally I’m much more comfortable with you. All my other partners have been black. Culturally that just feels more comfortable.

Gabby: Do you have, like, a favorite moment of us being together?

Laura: I mean, I think the beginning is always the best.

Gabby: As opposed to the break-up part?

Laura: Yes. I wanna get better at the break-up part, ’cause I think it’d just make life a lot easier. I’ve had that happen in multiple relationships. It would be great to have the breaking up part be just as fun and smooth as the beginning part.

Gabby: “You done? Yeah I’m done too! Woo!”

Laura: “I think you’re beautiful with someone else.” Anyhow, I think the beginning was so fun, ’cause, like, you were telling me that you could see my aura! You were telling me how beautiful I was, and writing poems about me, and you were doing all these poetry slams and you were like “my girl is so hot,” and I was like “aww.” That was fun!

Gabby: I think they should turn this into a podcast.

Laura: I think so too. Maybe we could have a radio show.

Gabby: What should it be called? Sister Exes?

Laura: You know, like XM radio or something.

Gabby: I gotchu.

Laura: Like a gender and sexuality themed, sexual identity themed…

Gabby: I think we should just talk about other people’s love problems, so it would be like “Sister Exes on Love” and people could write to us. Because, like, we have vastly different…

Laura: Opinions!

Gabby: Opinions, but also relationship experiences, sexual experiences.

Laura: Yeah, sure!

Gabby: So I think it would be fun.

Laura: I think that would be fun. Pitch it!

Gabby: Ok. I think we’re good on this interview, right?

Laura: Me too. But I want to ask you the same questions!

Gabby: Ok, but let me turn this off and make sure we got it all. ‘Cause I’ll be pissed.

Laura: Well we went over a lot of this stuff already, but how long were we together and when?

Gabby: We were together for two years, from the time that I was 18 to right before I turned 20. And you were my first girlfriend. My first official girlfriend.

Laura: What does official mean?

Gabby: Well, like that we claimed each other in that way. As girlfriends. So it wasn’t some secret or something weird. It wasn’t something unnamed, it was an official thing.

Laura: Also, we didn’t say this in the interview we did with me, but we both came out while we were together to our families.

Gabby: Oh yeah.

Laura: That’s kind of a huge deal.

Gabby: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes. That was really fucking hard.

Laura: Yeah.

Gabby: I don’t know if we really even processed those things with each other. I don’t think we — I think we did, but I don’t think we did…I feel like I don’t remember processing that with you. That I came out and it was so hard.

Laura: Really?

Gabby: I don’t know, do you remember?

Laura: I mean I remember being there for it and through it…

Gabby: Okay.

Laura: I don’t think that I knew how to process things in the way that I do now.

Gabby: Me neither!

Laura: You know what I mean?

Gabby: Yeah!

Laura: I think we were both just going through it together…

Gabby: Yeah, like “Welp, I just came out! And everything sucks! I don’t know how I’m feeling! Let’s have a fight and have sex.”

Laura:  Yeah, that’s how we processed it.

Gabby: Yeah, no, you’re right. You’re really right. I feel like I’m a way better communicator now. And a way better girlfriend than I’ve ever been in my whole life. Because we have created the skills and developed the skills back then. I don’t think we had those skills. We tried.

Laura: And why did we break up then?

Gabby: [laughs] We broke up because it was time! We broke up because we were very young, and we were arguing with each other like we had been married. For forty years.

Laura: Yeah.

Gabby: I was still living way more recklessly in certain degrees than you were. From what I can remember, the way you yelled at me felt like you were a mom trying to tell me what to do, and I was like, “I can’t handle that.” But I was acting recklessly, emotionally. I think I was acting like the kid. I was a kid.

Laura: What do you mean recklessly?

Gabby: I was really so young so I didn’t understand how to even be fully functioning or how to be accountable for my actions in a relationship. So I was just kinda doing what I wanted to do, even if it wasn’t hurtful to you. I didn’t understand that you were talking to me out of concern. You know what I mean? And I didn’t know how to hold myself accountable. I felt like I didn’t have to.

Laura: Well, and you didn’t. Really. I think we were both probably being in relationships the way we watched our parents be in relationships. I mean, that’s what you do if you don’t know how to be yourself in a relationship and use some communicating tools.

Gabby: Right, right. And you hear people talking all the time, but nobody teaches you how to communicate. And my parents didn’t really have the best method of communicating with each other. I don’t think they do even now!

Laura: So being each other’s parent is the natural reaction, I think. But I’m sorry if I was your mother.

Gabby: You were just wise!

Laura: No. Um, so what do you miss the most about me?

Gabby: I really loved, like loved, loved that you were an actress. And that you were an actress in a way where it wasn’t about being famous, it was about the craft of acting. In the moments where you would talk to me about acting and your connection to it was when you were lifted from whatever was going in our day-to-day situation and propelled into this state of existing in something beautiful. And I was always so proud and so impressed and so in awe of your ability and talent on stage and behind the scenes and during your rehearsals. I really genuinely loved that about you, and was caught up in all those moments and that magic. So I miss that. I don’t think I’ve dated anyone else in the arts since you, so that.

Laura: I would guess that you have moments where you are aware of moments of your current partner now creating magic, right? Like having transcendent moments or inspiring, or gaining inspiration from your partner.

Gabby: Yes, but it’s really very different. I do feel like I’m still getting to know her in that way? But when it’s connected to the arts it’s a different magic and a different beauty than when it’s connected to someone who sees themselves as a craftsperson. The connection and what I’m learning from her is that to create this thing that can be utilized or loved. Like she made me that Mary!

Laura:  Wow, that’s beautiful.

Gabby: It’s amazing right? She crafted it herself, it’s layers of paper on top of itself and she carved it with an x-acto knife.

Laura: That’s beautiful.

Gabby: Right. It’s gorgeous! To me, her vision as an artist isn’t to be someone who paints pictures of Mary, or sculpts pictures of Mary. I think she connects to it as a craftsperson. Like “I love this person, so I’m going to take my skills that I have and make this thing.” Whereas with you it was more like, “I’m gonna transcend and throw myself into this work, so I can beam out of this.” So it’s similar because when I talk to her and when we talk to her and when we talk about the future or when I see her love for me and things like that, I feel like I’m in a different place. But it’s different than being in a relationship with someone who is in love with the arts.

Laura: I guess the reason I ask that is cause I’m thinking about my own experience and wondering. about how to bridge the gap between the everyday and the mundane, and loving somebody and the really transcendent experience of that person. You know what mean?

Gabby: Yeah. Like you don’t get to see it, you feel it that often in the middle of all that everyday stuff?

Laura: Well, or how to navigate all the everyday stuff and still stay connected to what is transcendent about them. You know what I mean?

Gabby: Well, I mean also we were babies. So it was like you’re bursting with all of this feeling ’cause you haven’t been grounded by life yet. If you’re lucky, of course, if you’re privileged enough to have grown up with steadiness and love, to be able to go to a college that fosters your creativity, if you have all that — then of course you’re like, “God, I am singing! I am soaring!” You know? You don’t have to work. You know what I mean?

Laura: Right:

Gabby: So that’s also a huge part of it. I think what… My person now, I think what she gives to her craftsmanship is that she knows that when things are feeling out of whack, it’s time to invest some focused energy into a project, into something else — something that’s not me and that’s not her day-to-day thing. I think that helps her find her beauty and her transcendence. When people have something else to give themselves to, and knowing what that is as a partner.

Laura: What about our relationship impacted your later relationships?

Gabby: That’s a hard one. I think I have a positive and a not-so positive response. I think one thing that impacted me was that because you were literally my first love ever and because we fought a lot, I think that reinstated itself as ‘that’s how you do a relationship.’ You argue a lot and passionately, and that middle ground is almost non-existent or it’s like a magical place. You know? One positive that I see in my relationship now, and I’ve thought about before, is the importance of that connection to something else. Like somebody has to have something else going on too. I was with somebody before my present person who didn’t, and that was really toxic. I need to be with somebody who is connected to something outside of me and outside of a substance and outside of superficiality.

Laura: What do you mean outside of superficiality?

Gabby: Someone that’s not gonna bombard me with World Star Hip-Hop videos and someone that’s not gonna bombard me with wanting to keep up with the Kardashians. You know what I mean? Like, yes there is a time and a place for those things and they can be fun and they can be funny. Like, I fucking love Beyonce, I don’t even know her. If she had a show I would watch it every single day, but that wouldn’t be my only outlet.

Laura:  Yeah.

Gabby: You know? So, I think that I definitely learned that from you. Or with you.

Laura:  That’s awesome.

Gabby: Yeah.

Laura: Would you at this juncture invite me to your wedding?

Gabby: Hell yeah!

Laura: And why or why not?

Gabby: One, because I joke and I say you were my first Laura now. But also, I mean like you said in your interview, you’re one of my oldest friends and you feel like family, and you know me in a way that most people don’t know me. And we have maintained a relationship with each other despite all the reasons that we shouldn’t, or we could have just let it go. Also, there are parts of me that other people will never know. Like you knew Christina, you know what I mean? No one I ever date ever again, or make friends with, will ever know that, will ever no her. You know what I mean? And that is a huge part of my life and a huge part of different aspects of grief that I’ve experienced, you know? Also I want you to be at all the important stuff. You know? I hope if I’m ever able to have a baby that you’d come to my fucking shitty baby shower and you’d pretend to have a good time.

Laura: I don’t want to watch you open all the presents though!

Gabby: Come on! What if my chair is decorated like a huge vulva?

Laura:  Only if the presents are really funny and good presents! I don’t want to watch you open onesies.

Gabby: Aw! You have to!

Laura: Okay, fine!

Gabby: Okay. But you have to get me onesies that are funny.

Laura: Okay.

Gabby: Is there anything else?

Laura: I don’t think I have any other questions.

Gabby: Oh! I forgot! I forgot you were also the first person who taught me to be patient with sex, and you’re the reason that I go down on girls!

Laura: I’m so, so glad about that. I’m so glad to hear that. I’m not going down if you’re not going down.

Gabby: That’s what you told me! It’s the “both ways or no ways” club. That’s what you told me.

Laura: I still… I don’t know where the hell I came up with that.

Gabby: I didn’t go down on you for the longest time. And then one sunny afternoon, you came into my room and you did the deed and it was amazing and you crawled on top of me and you poked me in the chest and you were like, “If you ever want that to happen again, you better getting over this ‘I don’t go down on women’ shit. It’s the both ways or no ways club.”

Laura: You know what? There was something about external identity and then whatever your core being is because I don’t know where the fuck that came from. You know what I mean? Like, I didn’t have confidence or sexual prowess. I didn’t have sex with people, but there was something that I knew about how this was gonna go on.

Gabby: You were a feminist!

Laura: I guess so.

Gabby: I think that had something to do with it. You were claiming your woman identity and you wanted sex! And I was with you and I was like (makes noises) “I’m not gonna do that, I don’t eat none of that,” and you were like, “Oh yeah?”

Laura: Well, how could you be a lesbian and not go down?

Gabby: I mean, I just thought I’d get by on my charm and my wit.

(much laughter)

Gabby: That got me really far. That got me one sunny afternoon.