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Recently, I went on a dinner date with a cis woman that ended a bit awkwardly. Some of the conversation we shared was nice, we talked about film (fyi – an easy topic to hold my interest, ladies!), our common roots back in the States, and her background in performance art. At one point she shared with me her frustrations over a performance meant to showcase artists from our region in the U.S. The thing is, whoever put together this particular exhibition had invited a number of men from her theatre program to participate — meanwhile she and several of the other women who graduated from the program found out about the event later when one of the guys posted it on facebook.
It’s pretty easy to feel anger over such blatant sexism, and it immediately reminded me of some of my own experiences of feeling ignored at times in my own workplace. But then she said something that struck a really odd chord:
“Yeah, it’s supposed to represent artists from the South, but it turns out it’s just a total sausage fest.”
Okay, we all get the basic intended meaning here. But is she really implying that the men who were invited to exhibit their work were asked to do so on the basis of their genitalia? As a woman I have to say that having a penis never got me special treatment in the academic world. And given that she was aware of my body configuration I have to think that is a strange comment to make to me on a date.
Sadly, the situation only further deteriorated with the appearance of the word “ladyboy,” and the fact that somehow the subject kept getting changed when I tried to discuss these things. After the point that she referred to me as a “trans woman” as opposed to a “woman woman,” I found it difficult to bring myself to even say much for the last few minutes of our little disaster date.
Okay ladies, let’s stop right here and get our game together. One point is that this isn’t just a matter of grossing out a trans woman over dinner; it’s also a matter of a cis woman making herself look like kind of an ass. And beyond that, this kind of ignorant cissexism just gets in the way of us getting closer and having fun together.
Now, if your response is to start worrying over having to figure out all this ‘complicated trans stuff,’ then I would emphasize a lot of this boils down to respecting us as women just as much as you would want to be respected yourself. And the fact is that trans women are a component of queer women’s communities, so a lack of respect amongst us just means more devaluing of women, when society dishes out plenty of that for all of us already.
Not to mention that this results in some probably well-intentioned cis women missing out on connecting with lots of beautiful, amazing trans women. So with that in mind, I have put together some suggestions for cis women on thinking through some basic trans issues, including ideas on approaching trans women in a romantic or intimate context. And I want to be clear that working through this stuff applies the same in the context of a casual hookup as it does a romantic date.
I also want to be clear that the following represents only my own perspectives; I don’t speak for all trans women. Most importantly, whether you agree with every single point or not, the main thing is if you just think through some of these issues a bit you’ll probably be in a better place to come off as a well-intentioned friend rather than a jerk who doesn’t know any better. And you’ll be in a better place to have more fun.
Community Inclusion
In the last few years this situation has improved in some respects at least in some parts of the U.S. and Canada. But the fact is that there are still parties held in some places in which admittance is “women OR trans” only, meaning in this case that one should be either woman or trans, but not both. But even at parties, clubs or women’s spaces where we are included, many trans women have at times expressed feeling more tolerated than accepted.
As a further point, our inclusion in much of queer women’s culture is still nominal at best. As a nearby example, I’ve gotten some laughs out of some of the serial lesbian content on the sidebar here at Autostraddle, but I’m still waiting for a woman like me to show up on screen and join in the fun. Also, it’s rather cliché at this point that mainstream lesbian-oriented content tends to show more interest in trans men’s stories (who are, after all, not women) than ours (The L Word being the most obvious example).
Look, I get that it takes some time to work some of these things out, but part of my point is just that making it clear you believe trans women should be included is a good step towards developing meaningful friendship with us. On the contrary, referring to a bunch of dudes as a “sausage fest” might not be such a cool/sexy/romantic thing to do (regardless of anyone’s actual genital status… after all, some men have a vagina).
Recognize Our Perspectives
I realize there are a wide variety of trans narratives out there, and maybe it could seem like a lot to work through. But the basic script isn’t that difficult: respect our identities and our bodily autonomy, and when you’re not sure, find a gentle way to ask that doesn’t put anybody on the spot. (And if it’s just not your business to know something in the first place, then don’t ask.)
Another good idea is to understand that many trans people (including a number of trans-feminists) have come up with language to describe the cissexist world they see around them, and to challenge society to do better. Please respect our way of describing the world.
Sadly, a small group of aggressive anti-trans activists have gone far out of their way to introduce a lot of confusion about words like “cis,” claiming that it has some type of anti-woman meaning. This is completely false (and it makes no sense considering the word describes cis men just as it does cis women).
The word “cis” means “not trans” and it has no other meaning in this context. The point of using the word is to acknowledge that trans identities are equally valid and that cis privilege exists in our world and should be challenged.
It also conveniently provides you with the opportunity to refer to a “cis woman” instead of a “woman woman” and avoid wrecking our hang out session.
Please adopt this language, even when trans people are not around.
Cut Out Trans-misogynistic Language
This should go without saying, but referring to trans women as “trannies” or “shemales” is not only ignorant, it’s adopting language that is associated with social stigmatization and even violence against trans women. And having one of those words appear in the middle of our dinner-date is, um, anti-climatic in just about every sense of the word.
And from a trans-feminist perspective, I would emphasize that what underlies trans-misogyny is nothing more than misogyny itself. Remember ladies; you can’t buy into hateful language specifically directed against trans women without chipping in on hatred against women in general.
Dating Us On The Side
There are lots of wonderful, workable approaches to relationships out there, and different things work for different people. One of the awesome things about the queer women’s communities is that I think we tend to be much more open about possibilities for intimate relationships. Some women are poly, some are looking for an exclusive partnership, and there’s everything in between. Personally, I don’t even know if I have a strong preference; I think I’m more open to just working out the dynamics between individuals when the time comes.
I happen to have had a couple of awesome relationships with cis women who were already in long-term, (explicitly) non-monogamous relationships. That said, I can’t help but notice there seems to be a pattern in which I am invited to be someone’s “thing on the side.” While I can’t know for a fact if this is because I’m trans, I have heard other trans women relate similar things. In principle, I have no problem entering into such relationships with someone I trust and with whom I feel genuinely close. I’m just saying I know I’m not the only trans woman who feels a bit frustrated when this kind of thing seems to be on constant replay.
Fetishizing Trans Women
Again I’d like to think this goes without saying, but sadly I see it happen plenty. Look, I get that drawing the boundary between healthy, affectionate sexual curiosity and fetishization might not always be an exact science (and it might be a little different with different women). Personally I think I’m pretty relaxed and I can work with you as long as it doesn’t all reduce down to one thing (*cough*). However, if you’re on a date with a trans woman and your thoughts about her body are constantly distracting you from the conversation, just stop yourself and think: what if I was interacting with a guy and he kept having these kinds of thoughts about my body instead of listening to what I was saying? Would I feel comfortable around him?
Don’t reduce us to our genitals
(1)
Obviously this follows pretty strongly from the don’t-fetishize-us thing. A big part of this is what should be a pretty obvious hard rule: don’t put us on the spot with questions about our genitals.
Personally, I happen to be pretty open about this stuff (you might even notice a subtle dick joke appears in the previous sentence), but even if you know something about my body from reading one of my articles, that doesn’t make it cool to randomly bring my junk into the conversation if you meet me in real life.
Just the same, if you meet a trans woman who is a sex worker or if you’ve seen pornography in which a trans woman appears, that doesn’t give you some special right to ask her questions about her body anymore than it would if you met a cis woman who was involved in sex work.
(2)
Then there is the other side of the coin: some cis women might have an issue or feel uncertain about hooking up with a woman who has different genitalia than her own. First of all, you should never feel pressured to do anything you don’t want to do or that you’re even unsure about. If you aren’t comfortable or you just aren’t into it, say no.
That having been said, if genitalia is the one and only reason for not being into someone, I do think it is worth thinking through that. The result of your thinking could very well be “no, that’s not for me,” and that’s fine! We definitely don’t want to be with anybody who doesn’t want to be with us. But responding to one of the claims that some have made, I would emphatically state that nobody’s physical body is a representation of patriarchy. Such a statement is not only somewhat cruel to inflict on someone who herself is oppressed by patriarchy, it is also pretty defeatist from a feminist perspective (if we were really to buy into the idea that penises are the source of patriarchy, rather than socially constructed male privilege, aren’t we pretty much saying that patriarchy is a permanent fixture of human society? Eek).
Talk With Us
Beyond all these more detailed considerations, another key point is simply communication. Of course there are a myriad of situations that could arise that I’ve never even thought of, but if two people really care about developing a positive friendship or intimate relationship (whether for one evening or a committed partnership) then they will be willing to sit down together and talk through these things.
I have written previously about some of the alienation I have experienced as a trans woman dating in the queer women’s community. Now, I want to emphasize here again that no one is obligated to touch a woman’s penis if they aren’t into that. However it’s also important to emphasize:
1) Not every trans woman has a penis.
2) No general means exist to distinguish trans women from cis women.
The implications of these two points together are that statements such as “I am attracted to cis women but not trans women” simply do not make sense and are rooted in social prejudice.
(As a side comment, before moving on let me briefly address something that appears in the previous piece that I linked above. My article from about a year ago contains a reference to the concept of the so-called “cotton ceiling,” which deserves a brief comment here. While several trans woman-hating “radical feminists” have intentionally misconstrued this concept in rather bizarre ways, there are also a few trans people who have made statements in relation to this idea that I think are problematic. Hence, after having some time to reflect on the previous debates about this I have come to the conclusion that the “cotton ceiling” should be considered an unhelpful concept for this type of discussion and should be set aside by trans activists moving forward.)
Hooking Up
Awesome! Glad we made it this far. I would say, “now comes the fun part,” but actually the whole process of getting to know one another should be fun. And the fact is that respecting your potential partner and vice versa is really sexy, and it’s actually not that hard… err, difficult, to do.
At this point, again, the key is communication. There are trans women who like being touched in certain places or in certain ways, but not in others, just as a similar statement applies for many cis women. Those boundaries must be respected throughout by everyone involved. The key is to keep the channels of communication open throughout, and to rely on active consent as the model for sexual intimacy at every moment.
Underlining all of this of course is the opportunity for new experiences of friendship, solidarity and more.
About the author: Savannah is a queer trans woman and physicist originally from the great state of Carolina (that alone should tell you which one). She also writes on trans feminism and other social justice issues on her blog leftytgirl, preferably while listening to metal. Savannah presently lives in Tokyo where her principle hobbies include singing at karaoke clubs and getting lost on the subway.
Special Note: Autostraddle’s “First Person” personal essays do not necessarily reflect the ideals of Autostraddle or its editors, nor do any First Person writers intend to speak on behalf of anyone other than themselves. First Person writers are simply speaking honestly from their own hearts.
Brilliant article. Will be linking this in future.
This is a really fantastic article. Bookmark’d!
Also, this line:
“What if I was interacting with a guy and he kept having these kinds of thoughts about my body instead of listening to what I was saying? Would I feel comfortable around him?”
Yes. So much yes. And what a wonderful way to think about any interaction, actually.
This comment has been flagged as it is a violation of Autostraddle’s comment policy.
[S]tatements such as “I am attracted to cis women but not trans women” simply do not make sense and are rooted in social prejudice.
You have this exactly wrong. It’s social prejudice against LESBIANS to suggest that we are bigots because we don’t want to date people who have penises. Not wanting to have sex with people born with penises is what defines lesbians from bisexual and straight women. There is no difference between what you are saying and what the reparative therapy are trying to do to gay men and lesbians.
Would you, as a lesbian, date a trans man?
Are you implying that trans women who have not gone through GRS cannot identify themselves as lesbian?
Are you reducing people’s genders to their genitalia?
Honestly at the end of the day when it comes to people like that, I’m not even mad anymore because I would hate for someone to date anyone to be “politically correct.” *hard wink*
However in a discussion like this, ugh, this again…
No one has to date anyone, however one’s approach to the “why” should always be examined.
What is so difficult for you to understand about biologically female lesbians having a preference for penis-free women? It is neither complex nor bigoted, it is simply a preference. Why are M2T’s entitled to their preferences without challenge while biologically female lesbians are not? So, yes, it is about genitalia.
Just for clarification:
female = sex = biology
woman = gender = social construct
Biology is a reality. Gender is an idea.
Biology is certainly real, however the definitions of its meanings are artificially constructed.
I do agree however that preferences are something people have and should have. I don’t like smokers, and I couldn’t date a far right conservative due to ideological issues. But I wouldn’t ever say they aren’t a lesbian, or a human due to those preferences.
A lesbian (or anyone!) could have a preference for a person that is Penis free, or a redhead, or something else but that is not the sole definition of lesbian. That’s just the definition of a person who isn’t keen on Penises. And that’s perfectly ok.
No really, it is. Like I said, I am not to keen on the damn things either.
Also, you may want to stop saying Biologically female Lesbians as a class that is all inclusive to your ideal. As many, if not the great majority of Lesbians on this thread are not exactly in agreement. They are not saying your aren’t a lesbian, but you are indicating they aren’t?
Wow! Is any of your thinking based in reality? 1) Biology is not artificially constructed, it’s SCIENCE. Learn the difference. 2) Lesbian actually really does refer specifically to biological females who prefer emotional/sexual relationships only with other biological females- read a dictionary or history book.
I’m fine with calling you a woman, if that’s your preference. Hell, call yourself a lesbian, too, but the truth is you’ll never really be a lesbian because you are not, nor will you ever be, biologically female. And, in the end, that’s what really pisses you off- being told NO to something.
When did they stop teaching critical thinking in school because you are clearly lacking in that area.
Thank you for clearly outing yourself as a troll, we all appreciate the clarification.
The “M2T” pretty much gave it away. That and regurgitating the TERF manifesto.
I’d like to interrupt this insulting shit show to plug Amy Dentata’s chatbook BITE. I just wrote up the amazon review and reading this reminded me that hateful ciswomen with chips on their shoulders get too much air time anyway, and excellent publications like Amy’s are all too easily swept aside.
If this cissexist display makes you as nauseus as it does me, here is a lovely and empowering distraction: http://www.amazon.com/Bite-Bittersweet-Portions-Female-Troublemaker/dp/1477547223/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1363808664&sr=8-1&keywords=amy+dentata+bite
When I started reading these comments I thought I had read them already on a previous visit, but checking the date I know I didn’t. So it was just the usual radfem discussion repeating itself. It’s not really worth listening to.
Biology is not artificial, nope.
But the meanings of it are.
XX, XY? Or the more than a dozen other combinations?
SCIENCE – as you paint it, would point out that being a Lesbian, or anything other than hetero, as a flawed form of biology so there we go.
You can have your idea of Biology when it suits your exclusionary position, but gosh if that self same Science! as presented ends up pointing out some ugly questions, like why aren’t you having babies right now? I mean if biology is the end all be all, we should stick with it to it’s full essentialist conclusion.
Critical thinking doesn’t mean only finding that which traditional agrees with you. It means considering the information at hand and examining it in the light of the full view of facts. And there are plenty that say your limited explanation of sex is wrong.
I’m not mad, but I am a lesbian.
Interesting you aren’t arguing with the rather larger gathering of vagina bearing lesbians who disagree with you? Or, are they merely not Lesbians either because they don’t believe your point either? So is this a sexual orientation or a religion you’re going for here?
Thanks for making this comment Shelby. I’ll probably make a comment to a similar effect in a moment, but you’ve made the argument really well here.
The fact is that gender and sex are both social constructs according to the meanings that they are generally assigned in common usage. It’s more obvious in the case of gender, but it’s also the fact for “biological” sex as well.
Thanks for using the term “M2T”. It really makes it clear that you don’t think trans women are women, and that you can be safely ignored.
But… According to biology, there are multiple other combinations of sex chromosomes than XX and XY. Also, some people who are chromosomaly binary do not have sexual parts that match their chromosomes due to hormonal or brain variations. It is pointless to try and reduce science to a simplified black and white. Who and what we are is forever a combination of our bodies, our minds, or culture and our biochemicals.
Many of women in these comment threads are cis-gender women- assigned female at birth. They, like me, and like the women you are attacking, define lesbian as female identified who loves/fucks/dates other female identified. I am not sure why you find this to be so upsetting. No one is asking you to sleep with a person who has a penis, we are just asking that you respect our identities, of trans women and cis women alike.
This piece is educational well written and really really useful. I have been with my wife for a long time now, and I still struggle sometimes, mostly with taking shared experience in the world for granted.
Thank you for sharing.
Thanks Hillary for reading! all the best to you and your wife… xo
no biology isn’t socially constructed, but you know what is? the meaning we attach to that biology is whats socially constructed. that includes the meaning your attaching to these biological aspects. nature dictates that there is no tautological definition for female, or male. it is impossible to create one without constantly adding exceptions and rules to rules to rules to exceptions. there is no prime male or female. it does not exist. that’s biology. society others and marginalizes people with XXX, XXY, X0, etc chromosomes , society others people who were born with vagina’s and XY chromosomes and men born with XX chromosomes (yes they do exist). why? because they shine a light through the flimsy and highly flawed binarical heteronormative standard belief. it’s like when the catholic church claimed the sun revolved around the earth. it sounds fitting at first, but it does not hold up to scientific scrutiny.
Thank you! I am a scientist and gender/sex are not nearly as simple as people make them out to be.
fucking gross ass radscum wow
a small comment- personally I’m not big on this phrase “radscum”… my view is we should win these arguments in the realm of ideas, not in the realm of put-downs… but in any case, thanks for reading… xo
In contrast with Savannah, I’d like to say: fuck radscum very much, and I will gladly continue to call them that, because I have given up on reconciliation. They’re aware of our arguments already, and they don’t/won’t listen to them, because they are essentially fanatics. Bigots don’t tend to change in the face of reason.
Kennedy, it’s not about reconciliation or trying to convince them of anything. I honestly don’t care what they think.
It’s about changing the minds of people who are undecided on these issues. One of the radfems tactics is just to be so outrageous that the entire conversation sounds ridiculous and a lot of people who are in the middle just give up on trying to figure it out. Throwing insults at them in that context just plays into their game, it helps them out.
Instead, by responding to their bigotry with thoughtful, persuasive arguments, we can win the argument by gradually winning the people in the middle who are presently undecided on some of these issues.
Actually, the notion of there being two completely distinct biological sexes IS rooted in social constructs. Scientists have cultural biases like the rest of us. If you actually study biological sex, you’ll see that there are many more possibilities (in many, many species–including human) than just male or female. Biological variation is normal–it is us humans who have termed variation an aberration.
I urge *you* to think critically as well. And perhaps actually do some research before making blanket statements that are factually incorrect.
“Actually, the notion of there being two completely distinct biological sexes IS rooted in social constructs”
It’s true. The idea of two sexes is not an eternal one in biology: they used to think of humans as one sex, with females as the inverted, incomplete, inferior males.
If you don’t want to date trans* people, don’t do it. Whatever. I’m sure they don’t want to date transphobic folks either. But why are you even reading and commenting on this article? It’s a GUIDE for people who WANT approach, date, love and be with trans’ women. So why do you feel the need to voice your opinion about something that is clearly not about you or aimed at you? Why, why, why?
And I know that you are not interested in real science but just the one you made up in you head, but I#m gonna leave this link anyway: http://impossibletospell.tumblr.com/post/43849225999/chromosomes-arent-magic
Maybe someone else appreciates the info.
THIS. is the problem with the comments in this thread.
“If you don’t want to date trans* people, don’t do it. Whatever. I’m sure they don’t want to date transphobic folks either.”
Ew ew ew. Not wanting to date trans people = transphobic is so gross and wrong. Congrats, you’re transradscum! Oh, oops, this might only be okay when it’s just radscum. The double standards here are pathetic.
Except I wrote this as a response to Maria B’s awfully transphobic comment. So your argument is not really valid.
“If you don’t want to date trans* people, don’t do it. Whatever. I’m sure they don’t want to date transphobic folks either.”
Thanks for saying this because,complicated arguments about science and biology aside, as a lesbian I LOVE women so why wouldn’t I want to expand the pool of women to date with MORE women! Seems like such a no-brainer to me! Thanks for this comment and thanks for the guide!
gah!!! everything you say makes sense…
except I hate when people use the word ‘real’ like that… I’m a trans woman, by my own definition, I do not feel that weakens me as one of the girls or whatever, it is MY identification. I am not saying everyone here should adopt it, just don’t say one size/title etc fits all…
and what is wrong with people having their own preferences of physical attraction?
me, I’m pansexual… but why can’t some women just like women who have whatever genitalia they are comfortable dealing with?
just as some bi guys I know like women with whatever genitalia they have but sexually dislike guys who have vaginas? human desires come in as many shapes and orintations and preferences as exists, don’t have a go at someone for their preferences unless they are hating on you or trying to get in your knickers…
Lemme break it down for ya. The chromosomes are only the coding for the rest of our bodies. And while our bodies might be coded to have penises, the trans brain is also wired to be female. Therefore, when you say that a transwoman can never be female or a lesbian you are pretty much wrong, or getting really hung up on sematics.
The reality is is that most lesbian women date women, not genitalia. We’re with women because we enjoy what a female to female relationship has to offer. I have met many “lesbians that like c*ck”, and self-pronounced at that. This is the kind of anti-feminist bigotry that divides, not unites. Way to set us back 50 years.
So if a lesbian is a biologically female person attracted to other biologically female people, then what do you call a woman who is attracted to other women?? That’s the definition of “lesbian” I was always taught. And it has nothing to do with being biologically anything.
It’s true that some people are not attracted to anyone with a penis– but that’s just a personal preference. It’s not because they’re lesbians, because that’s just not what lesbian means.
Sex is also a social construct with no single, consistent definition. Again, nobody is forcing you to do anything you don’t want. Your comments are mischaracterizing the article. They are also off-topic and detracting from the main conversation.
Sex is SCIENCE, not a social construct. Learn what a social construct actually is, please.
Science would disagree with you:
http://www.ted.com/talks/alice_dreger_is_anatomy_destiny.html
Not a troll. Just trying to educate you in the error of your flawed thinking.
I’ll await you rape and death threats now, as that’s what happens when a lesbian speaks out.
You’re not even that good at trolling. Also, as a rape survivor, I laugh in your general direction.
I would fart in their general direction, but it would be a waste of energy.
Slightly off topic, but as a fellow survivor I’d just like to say I applaud your bravery in owning it so publicly, sadly there’s an awful lot of us about and if we all stood up to rape culture whenever it showed up (you stay classy, TERF troll) then it would go a long way to stemming the flow.
Also for those who are saying “but BIOLOGY!!”, can I point out how many other chromosomal arrangements are found in humans, YYX, XXY, XXX, XO etc, and that the gene expression of each individual is different, and that the effects on the body in each individual is different, etc. Are we just bags of chemicals labeling each other or does the ability to think and function at a higher level free us from biological determinism? We are more than our DNA.
Ah, but Kali, things like facts and science and other such nonsense are of no consequence to fundamentalists of any sort.
Wow. Ok, so, biology is kinda a social construct. Up until the 17th century there was only one sex: male. Women were just flawed males with inverted male genitalia (so the thinking went). Check out the book Making Sex by Thomas Laquer. Your transphobia is showing.
Wow. What a super disgusting thing to say inside a safe space full of queer women like Autostraddle. I would wager that the women responding to you are at least queer if not lesbians themselves, and no one is silencing you here, just trying to let you check yourself before you wreck yourself. Remove the giant chip from your shoulder and learn something about intersectionality. You are NOT winning the oppression olympics on this page.
Maria: I would like to note the complete lack of “rape and death threats” on this comment thread.
If you have experienced that elsewhere, I am very sorry – no matter how you treat others, you deserve to be treated with basic human decency. What I love about autostraddle is that it is a safe space – even on threads like this where there are a number of trolls, most people have taken the time to respond thoughtfully. The worst you will get called here is “radscum” (a term I personally dislike and would not use, but one is not threatening). I love how you look at all of these respectful and exceedingly patient comments, and expect to get threatened. This is not that kind of community – we try to support each other, not tear each other down.
Seconded. Not only are threats over the Intartubez as pointless as they are juvenile, they do not belong in a space like this.
Maria B, get your head out of your butt and smell the fresh air – it might seem scary to get out of your comfort zone but it will do you some good.
So Maria I am a post-op trans woman. Where do I fit in your world view? I withdrew from my so-called male existence as quickly as I could (stupid laws do not allow surgery until one is 18). Are you saying my life is contaminated by that time I was forced to endure having a penis!! If I could have I would have had my birth defect removed when I was 3 or 4!! And I am a female, now in body as well as mind!!
You still have a Y chromosome so you are biologically male but I consider you a woman because you have had genital reconstructive surgery. But, for 18 years, you were male and cannot unlearn that socialization.
if you can’t unlearn socialization then there isn’t much point in fighting the patriarchy is there? that’s a big part of how the patriarchy continues on through the ages after all….
It goes even deeper than that. Socialization isn’t just what you’re told, it’s what you listen to. A lot of trans women pick up on the gendered messages sent to girls, and dismiss messages directed at boys, because we know who we are. The ways we conform to masculinity pre-transition are for survival purposes, not because we identify with men and consider ourselves part of that group.
also a Y chromosome does not necessarily make you male, and an two x’s don’t necessarily make you female. there are many mammals in the animal kingdom where males and females have no differentiation in chromosomal make up (both XX, XY, or even XXX). The second x and the y some people have in human populations really don’t do very much biologically. Up until recently biologists were in fact convinced that the y chromosome would completely disappear eventually. It generally trigger’s an onslaught of androgen’s in the womb during pregnancy. But this doesn’t always happen. It doesn’t do anything else. Just as the second x doesn’t really do much. In essence we are really all X and only X because that’s the only chromosome that serves much purpose in both males and females.
I love this point! It really encapsulates the rottenness of the logic behind why trans women can never be “real” women.
Thanks for this comment kazzy… it’s sad to see these kind of arguments that patriarchy is an unconquerable force presented as some twisted version of feminism. Male socialization MUST be unlearned: after all, that is one of the primary goals of feminism!
Maria, you are assuming that as a young trans person I was accepted and did the normal guy things!! However if you are somewhat feminine looking and act feminine or even androgynous you are ostracized and not accepted in the male society!!Even if you project a male persona to protect yourself, in your mind you are female and know that what you are living is not the real you!!
How are you defining socialisation here? Because having been a child of migrants, and myself a migrant across multiple cultures, I can safely say that there’s no consistent universal gender-based socialisation.
Oh cool! You have a super power that allows you to define other people’s identities for them!? I’m on the cusp of Gemini/cancer and I’m not really sure which one suits me better? Which one should I identify as Maria? Oh also I was doing my tax refund and I’m not really sure if I still count as a dependent to my parents? Which box should I check Maria? Also I’m a vegetarian but I’m lactose intolerant so am I a ovo-vegetarian or a vegan or what? Also if I eat carrots or bananas or other phallicly shaped foods do I still count as a lesbian or what? I’m not sure. Pls use you super power to help me, thanks heaaaaaaapppppssss Maria!
So, ah, socialisation is based on genitals huh? So a trans girl who asserts her identity at like the age of 4, is accepted by her family, is allowed to present herself to the world as female, and grows up being viewed and viewing herself as female, would be socialised male? Because, according to your comment, it’s the surgery that ends the socialisation. Even though all trans people have to spend at least a year, and frequently spend a lot more time than that, living as their identified gender, and being viewed by the world as such. But, we are to believe that none of this matters until they have some surgery, that not everyone can either afford or is capable of undergoing? Your understanding of how socialisation works is rather poor, both for the reasons I’ve pointed out, as well as socialisation hinges far more on the messages a person receives, than what they are told. So the media, and parents, and family members, and teacher, and strangers, and society as a whole, tells “boys” one thing, and “girls” another, do you really think things are as simple as someone who is viewed as a boys only receives boys messages, and vice versa? Nothing is ever that simple. We take in the messages we feel are for us, and this, as with all psychological processes, is at least partially, possibly mostly, unconscious. If someone believes they are, or should be female, then which messages do you really think would be more significant to them? Or… do you think that the penis is some kind of receiving antenna for male socialisation, and that such cannot possibly be ignored, even if the person in question feels no connection with maleness or being a “boy” whatsoever? The world is never this black and white.
Millions of women the world over have Y chromosomes–fortunately, the simplistic and unscientific view that a Y chromosome makes one male has long been disproved by the existence of such women born with vaginas and fully normal external genitalia, who grow hips and breasts at puberty, are raised (socialized) as girls, and may never even be told the reason they cannot conceive and carry a baby. But they are XY females. There are also “born” XX males. If you’d care to look it up, there’s a medical journal article out there on a study of FERTILE women with XY chromosomes who got pregnant across generations without medical intervention, gave birth, and passed on their female fertility to their daughters who are also XY.
Depending on many other genetic factors, a Y just means male most of the time. It doesn’t define any sex.
I’m familiar with chromosomal XY individuals who are raised as women from birth, however, my understanding was that they were always infertile– typically having a vagina, but only in rare cases having a (non-functional) uterus. If you know of actual cases of XY women who are capable of child-bearing, I would be really interested to know more… could I ask that you please link to that here for the rest of us?
Savannah, for some reason the software wouldn’t let me reply to you, so I had to reply to myself based on where the button was. weird. Anyway, here’s the URL.
http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/93/1/182.abstract
Very interesting, thanks!
Trans women are biological females. Genitals are a secondary sex characteristic. Sex is all in the brain.
http://www.genderpsychology.org/psychology/BSTc.html
“Heterosexual Woman have smaller BSTc regions than Heterosexual Men. (p<.005: there is a 1/2 a percent chance this finding is a fluke)
Homosexual males and heterosexual males do not differ in BSTc size (p=.26; there is a 26% chance that the difference found was a fluke; that's such a high chance we say the groups are really the same)
Male to female transsexuals have smaller BSTc regions than both heterosexual and homosexual men. (p<.005: there is a 1/2 a percent chance this finding is a fluke)
Though male to female transsexuals in the sample have somewhat smaller BSTc regions than the woman sample, male-to-female transseuxals and other woman have BSTc regions of the same size (P=0.13; there is a 13% chance that the difference found was a fluke; that's still a high level of chance so we say the groups are really the same)"
Being picky about genitals is like having a preference for boob size. It is still a thing (I am not saying people are not allowed to have preferences) but I bet you would dislike it if a women did not want to go out with you if your boobs were not big/small/whatever enough.
Genitals are not secondary sex characteristics but part of the reproductive system- a biological system. You need to re-take biology. An example of a secondary sex characteristic would be the ENLARGEMENT of female breasts, not the breasts themselves. Again, time for a biology class.
Can’t you even Google. It’s all right there. Technology has made you lazy and easily swayed by any glittery idea that hits the internet. Your arguments are circular and false.
Take your own advice and look up Alice Dreger sometime.
It’s true that genitalia is a primary sex characteristic, not secondary. That having been said, the definitions of sex that you yourself (Maria) seem to be working with are inaccurate.
‘Gender’ is a social construct, that is true. But ‘sex’ as it is generally applied in day-to-day use in our society is also a social construct. The fact is that our society on a regular basis takes individuals who do not fit the XX chromosomal/reproductively female model and nevertheless assigns them such designation and further interacts with them and socializes with that person following a script based on those female sex/gender constructs. A similar statement holds for many individuals who do not fir the XY chromosomal/reproductively male model.
The fact is that sex is difficult to define according to any single consistent workable model in our society. Rather than rejecting or attempting to erase that scientific reality, I think that our society will be better off trying to learn and embrace that human beings come in all types of different shapes, sizes and body configurations.
From that perspective, I view bodily autonomy and body acceptance as one of the core principles of both feminism and trans activism.
And yes, bodily autonomy means that you absolutely have the right to reject sexual relations with any person who has a penis if you are not comfortable sharing such relations. However, it also means that when you put forward false scientific hypotheses of what womanhood is (especially with those hypotheses follow a script that was obviously prepared for you by patriarchy itself), I think you will find it increasingly likely that you will be called out on that.
True, genitals are a primary sex characteristic, and cis women with XY chromosomes usually have incomplete reproductive systems and resulting infertility. Of course a few XY cis women have been born with more than just vaginas and vulvas–a handful are known to have been born with functional uteruses and ovaries too. These all, fertile or not, are biological women who had full or partial female reproductive systems from birth, yet have Y chromosomes. Y chromosomes do NOT define sex any more than they do gender; they are a fallible indicator of likely maleness, but other genetic and environmental factors cannot override them from the womb.
I will concede one tiny point to you. If you love a woman not for who she is but what she has between her legs, I can empathize to an extent–I have trouble imagining a scenario in which a man could seduce me into bed if I knew he had a penis, although a man without one would still have some difficulty simply because I’m only attracted to women (whatever is between their legs). It’s mainly whether he’s a guy that determines my lack of attraction, but having a penis makes me even less likely (if there can be such a thing as degrees of no interest) to give in.
Before you laugh and say YES–that “cannot” at the end of my first paragraph was a TYPO, since the presence of a Y and a working uterus would undermine the point of that sentence.
I’m annoyed we cannot edit posts after submission. :(
OMG, it happened again. Let us edit, please! “since the presence of a Y and a working uterus would undermine the point of that sentence if I had intended to use the word ‘cannot’.” *sigh*
Maria B, why is it so difficult for you to understand that the way we conceptualize biological difference IS socially constructed?
Individuals are sexed according to several different biological factors, including chromosomes, genitalia, secondary sex characteristics, hormone proportions, etc. Individuals are first sexed (in certain cases) by the way genitalia appears on the grainy ultrasound, which may change based on an individual’s chromosomal make-up (i.e., socially constructed).
As so many other people have written eloquently, your ignorance and prejudice are quite appalling.
Maria B – Gender is a construct, identity is bilological. If a woman refers to herself as a woman, it doesn’t matter what her genitals are.
Where do people such as Hida Villoria and myself fit in to your world? Not being a hater, just reducing it to biology, well, physiology, which is how you apparently see things..
Personally I think both “M2Ts” and “biologically female lesbians” (as you call them, Maria) can have their preferences. But that doesn’t mean that some of those preferences aren’t potentially bigoted. If a white trans woman says she doesn’t want to date people of color, for example, she is expressing a bigoted preference. If a “biologically female lesbian” says she doesn’t want to date trans women, she is also expressing a bigoted preference. That doesn’t mean these bigoted folks should be pressured to date people against their preferences. . .after all, a person of color would hardly benefit from dating a racist anyway, and a trans woman would hardly benefit from dating a transphobe. All it means is that these folks are expressing bigotry and their words should be critiqued as bigotry by people concerned about social justice.
MtT? really? That is a slur most often used by TERF radfems. I am not sure if you are aware of that or not but it is very offensive to trans WOMEN.
Lana, I’m pretty certain that Becca is responding to Maria B and quoting the fact that *Maria B* used the dehumanizing term “M2T” elsewhere on this thread; she’s not actually using it herself. I realize it’s all a bit confusing at this point to keep up with who is responding to who in this massive convo, but probably it’s good to trace the convo back a little on these things (in fact, I believe that Becca identifies herself as a trans woman elsewhere in another comment).
Yes, I am a trans woman, and I recognize that “M2T” is offensive (I also don’t even like to identify as an “MTF,” but that’s a tangent). I was simply quoting Maria. Sorry if I caused you consternation, Lana.
Hi Savannah, I really enjoyed your article. Good job :) I am a trans-woman, I wasn’t going to comment on this but I suddenly feel the need to.
It’s kind of sad to see some the negativity and exclusive gender-binary roles people are trying to reduce everyone to, it’s a very old argument and it really needs to stop,. Gender is a continuum some people identify as being female and some as male, and other folks all the way along the continuum. Similarly, sexuality is also a continuum some identify as being very gay and some very straight and other folks all the way along in between (eg. bisexual, pansexual, omnisexual, etc.) There is nothing wrong with preferring vaginas, or preferring penises, or both. Everyone comes from different places and everyone identifies with and prefers whatever is most comfortable to them. For example, how I identify myself: I am a woman , regardless of what is or isn’t between my legs. PERIOD, I consider myself a gay woman, because I prefer other women* trans or otherwise. Other people identify themselves for what feels right to them, and that’s awesome. It doesn’t make anyone any less of a woman or man, trans or cis.
Again great article, keep it up! :D
Would I, as a lesbian, date a trans man? No. I’m attracted to women, with female bodies. I’m not attracted to either the male gender nor the male genitalia.
What differentiates lesbians from people of other orientation is that they identify as women and are attracted to women. Would you change that definition to “women who are attracted to vaginas?” It’s just ludicrous to imply that it’s what’s in someone’s pants (or under their skirt) that makes you attracted to them. I’m attracted to my trans woman partner for who she is as a person; I could care less about her genitals.
Dharma, thank you so much, exactly!
As *everyone* knows, if the woman in question who is attracted to the vagina has a penis, she is a man and therefore can’t be a lesbian. Perhaps ‘vaginas that are attracted to other vaginas’ would be a more appropriate definition. In the future, we will all be disembodied genitalia. The vaginas will float around on butterfly wings giving candy to kittens while the raptor-winged penises soar overhead eager to dive-bomb the hapless, unsuspecting vaginas.
What so many people seem to miss is the largest biological organ: our brains. Most of what makes up who I am is between my ears and what attracts me to other people is what is between theirs.
Trans-exclusionary radical feminists seem to want to enforce rape culture and patriarchy in so much that they say. Sorry, I’m not drinking the kool aid.
Yes, it was! :)
Genitals might not have anything to do with your attractions (and that’s awesome for you), but for many of us, they play a huge part in our sexual satisfaction and there is nothing wrong with that either. I love, love, love, love, love vaginas. For many of us, we would not have a satisfying sexual experience if we couldn’t smell, taste, lick, and touch a vagina. I know I wouldn’t. And plenty of people feel the same about penises. And plenty of people don’t care and would have a satisfying sexual experience with either (or without either).
There is nothing wrong with not caring about the genitals of the persoyou’re having sex with, but it’s not ludicrous that some of us are only turned on by certain genitals. Some of us are extremely physically turned on by certain genitals and would not be able to be aroused by others. And that’s okay. I don’t judge your attractions, so don’t judge mine.
I am 100% with you on this.
What we’re judging is not the preference for vagina over penis. What we’re judging is the blanket statement of not being a “real lesbian” if you’re dating trans women.
And honestly? Isn’t the whole “real lesbian” thing a red herring? Why are we assuming this guide is solely for lesbians – when not everyone here identifies that way? There’s queer women, bisexual women, pansexual women, fuck-labels women…
I said nothing about trans women being real women or real lesbians. I believe trans women are women and that someone who is dating a trans women is a lesbian (if she identifies that way). I was simply responding to Dharmagrrlie assertion that it’s “ludicrous” that what is in someone’s pants is what makes you attracted to them. Genitals might hold no part of attraction for some people, but for some of us genitals are a big part of attraction.
Thanks fr ths comment. For me, it s really true and upsetting that the s often thought of as anti trans
Actually, Dharmagrrlie wrote, “It’s just ludicrous to imply that it’s what’s in someone’s pants (or under their skirt) that makes you attracted to them.”
What you are saying, however, is: that genitals are the major deciding factor of whether or not you are attracted to a person; you love your partners for what is in their pants and everything else that might be attractive about them is a bonus.
That’s a shitty thing to say about anybody and reflects badly on you.
No, what I clearly said was that I would not have a sexually satisfying experience with someone who does not have a vagina, because interacting with a vagina is a big part of my sexual satisfaction. I am attracted to or not attracted to a woman based on many characteristics, but I only have sex in long term relationships and I would not have a long term relationship with someone with whom I know sex will not be satisfying to me. I also would not have sex with a stone butch, because they would not let me touch their vagina, because it would not be a good sexual experience for me.
It’s reflects badly on you that you think it’s okay to scold a woman for wanting to have only satisfying sex.
So you can only be satisfied by vagina, even unsatisfying vagina. This is because you have tried all the vaginas in the world and all of the penises and know this to be true.
I reiterate: a shitty thing to say and reflects badly on you.
That is not what I said at all, but, by all means, please continue to insist that a woman could never possibly know her own sexual desires and that it’s my job to have unsatisfying sex for the sake of other people lest I be accused of being a bad person. You’re completely right that women should be scolded and called shitty people if we insist on having only the types of sex we actually find sexual fulfilling. As you said, how could a silly woman possibly even fathom what she finds sexually fulfilling or what turns her on unless she’s had sex with every single person in the world?
Thank you parroting exactly the same things that patriarchal society pushes on women (all women, both cis and trans) every single day of our lives!
Yeah FTR I agree with pac at this point in the conversation. It totally is not an individual woman’s job to constantly answer or account for her sexual desires, and I have never once argued for that or anything like it.
I think that asking some questions at the macro-community level makes sense, but that doesn’t channel into asking an individual cis woman into having to account for her sexual desires to any individual person that might be attracted to her, and such a claim would be contrary to my article above.
Thank you, Savannah. I also want to thank you for this article which gave me for the insight into trans women’s struggles and for fighting for the respect of all women.
pac, clearly I misread something yesterday. I had raised my hackles over the appearance of comments by radfem creeps and by some oversight I saw your comment as yet another cissexist attack on trans*women. I had been triggered and did not stop to check how I was expressing my anger or on whom.
I have re-read your comments. I was wrong and I am sorry for the hurtful things I wrote. I feel quite wretched and I hope you are okay.
Thank you for that response, Evil Empress. I know how easy it is to get upset when feeling attacked. It happens to me often! I’m glad for this dialogue between lesbians and queer women of all kinds.
I get her point to an extent. I can only have a satisfactory sexual experience licking, tasting, smelling and touching a vagina (but I concede that might change if I’ve fallen in love with a woman who didn’t have one, but it’s purely hypothetical because it hasn’t happened to me so far)–more accurately, the entire vulva. But I also sit out the long wait in torment for my own so that I can provide that to my future partners, as I do not believe I can have a satisfactory sexual experience if my partner isn’t licking, tasting, smelling and touching the vulva and vagina I don’t have yet. And even though I’m only soft butch at best, in bed I’d be stone because I won’t be touched there until I have there what I’m meant to. So to that extent, I get it.
If I met a hot, sweet, smart, funny pre-op trans woman and we clicked, I’d give it a shot. I’d be a little more hesitant if she were simply non-op, but my feelings for her would be the deciding factor. But a hookup? Then no, because I wouldn’t be interested in any sex below the belt–I’d need love to overcome that, because lust wouldn’t be there.
Thank you for being so graceful about it, pac. It feels like GSD folks are never – never – respected just as people and that really hurts, every single damned time I see it happen. As a subject very close to my heart it bothers me deeply to see the vilification of GSD people to seemingly bolster everybody else – I get very riled up, probably even hostile, towards any attitudes and opinions that could perceivably be cissexist/cis-supremacist in nature.
Again, very sorry.
I’m a trans woman myself and I’m 100% in agreement with Pac on this. I just don’t find penises arousing in the slightest, but I’m very thankful that my cis girlfriend doesn’t feel the same way. It’s not ludicrous at all to have a desire for one one of the two broad categories of genitalia. While I could be attracted to a woman with a penis and form an emotional connection with her, the sexual component of a relationship wouldn’t be there and that’s not enough for me in a relationship. Hell, that’s why I’m divorced from my first wife. We were best friends, still completely in love with each other, but she’s as straight as can be and couldn’t be sexually attracted to a woman. Satisfying sex has to be part of a relationship for me, and for that, I need a partner with a vulva.
And for me, I also need to be a partner with a vulva.
You’re right, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with being a gynophile. Unfortunately, practically no one self-identifies this way, instead pretending to the “lesbian” and “straight man” bandwagons and patching up the gap in that logic with transmisogynistic bigotry.
I don’t “identify” as a woman. What on earth does that even mean?
It means “woman” is part of your identity. Pretty simple, really.
I believe the phrase “identifying as a woman” means that a given person IS a woman, and that person also RECOGNIZES the fact that she is a woman (though that fact may not be recognized by others). The phrase was mainly created by trans people in a (not entirely successfully) attempt to water down the actual truth about our gender to soothe the feelings of transphobic bigots. For example, I am trans and I also a woman, but because I’m trans. . .some people choose to dispute the fact that I’m a woman. So I might use the phrase “I identify as a woman” rather than “I am a woman” in the hopes of incurring less backlash from bigots who believe I’m really a man. Unfortunately, there’s no way to win for losing, and the most hardcore bigots also have a problem with me saying “I identify as a woman.”
Your definition of “lesbian” assumes that “cisgender” is automatically part of the equation. There are many cis lesbians who disagree with your definition, and many trans women lesbians who disagree as well.
Comparing social activism to reparative therapy is an insult to people who have gone through reparative therapy. You aren’t being given shock treatments, locked away in a room until you behave properly, or any of the other forms of literal torture that people are put through in reparative therapy. Nobody is forcing you to do anything.
This is ridiculous.
Lesbian means loving women.
Not liking Penis means … not liking penis.
I don’t blame you, not a fan of penises myself really.
BUT.
Liking vagina means LIKING (I almost wrote licking. Wee) Vagina.
Neither the vagina thing, nor the Penis thing are relevant to your status as a lesbian. It is the gender of the person those particular bits are attached to.
If attached to male id’d person? (Whether vagina or penis)
THIS IS NO LESBIAN LAND!
If attached to female id’d person? (Whether vagina or penis)
THIS IS HAPPY HAPPY TEGAN AND SARA LESBIAN LAND!
If attached to Genderqueer or otherwise Non-Binary id’d person?
GOOD LUCK! WILL PROBABLY BE FUN!?
But if, at the end of the day, you are talking about defining what a woman is by her genitals, you aren’t discussing Lesbians, you’re talking about biological essentialism and that’s, well, bullshit. :)
This MUST get a comment award!
Does anyone else want a t-shirt that says “Welcome to happy happy Tegan and Sara lesbian Land”…or we could just go for boxer-briefs…
OMG I want those boxer briefs! Also the “may contain nuts” shirt from Shelby’s otehr comment.
Autostraddle-the people have spoken, designing the new merch just got easier!
Nah, I have listened to them a bit, and like the stuff I have heard but I was going for some proto-typical Queer Gal music and while more Traditional artists like Melissa Etheridge would work it didn’t have the same bouncy rhythm as Tegan and Sara. :)
We can FIX these constant arguments with new terms!
People can and will and should have preferences.
If your preference is only to have sex with people who have Vaginas, such as ….umm anyone with a vagina? (Trans*Male, Woman, Man, etc)
You can identified this preference by saying: I AM VAGINIAN!
This also works with Penises attached to (Trans*females, Women, Men, etc) I AM A PENORIAN!
It works like Vegetarian. It’s something you may have to mention to your server, partner or playmate. Or maybe like allergies? Careful: May contain Nuts.
I’ve wanted to get a shirt with “Warning: May Contain Nuts” on it forever!!!
Although I don’t discriminate based on genitalia with my partners, I *am* a fan of the term “vagitarian”.
My friend has a shirt that says that :D
That shirt is on my Amazon universal wish list! Along with the poignant (and for me, optimistic) “Just let me love her and we’ll be fine” and “Some chicks marry chicks. Get over it!”
But in the name of non-monosexual people I need to say this: We don’t have enough space for all the shirts that we are going to need ;)
Ok, this seems to happen a lot (at least to me), when all of this is brought up and a cis lesbian says she doesn’t like the D and would not date/sleep with someone who had it. “Just call yourself a vagitarian, then!”
No.
For one, I don’t like anyone telling me I should change my label…I’m a lesbian. Plain and simple. I have preferences, but that’s not my sexual orientation. My sexual orientation is homosexual. Lesbian. Gay as fuck.
That being said, I would only date a woman with a vagina. Post-op trans woman, cis women. No strap-ons, no penises. Penises are INTENSELY triggering for me, for a number of reasons. It doesn’t matter whether or not the person who has it calls it a penis, or whether they are used in sex, I’ll just end up having a panic attack and it’ll be a shitshow. And for the record, I was raped by two girls at one point in addition to all the things that guys have done. They used a dildo. Fun times.
I’m not saying that I wouldn’t be attracted to a trans woman with a penis. That could totally happen. But I know me, I know what I’m comfortable with, and enduring unnecessary trauma just isn’t something I’m willing to sacrifice for her sexual satisfaction.
But anyway, no, I’m not going to call myself a vagitarian, because I don’t like trans guys or, generally, genderqueer individuals. I like women. She pronouns. I am in LOVE with she pronouns. And it’s not like I worship the vagina. I don’t. I think it’s pretty powerful and amazing and I respect it, but it’s not something I crave. I’m actually not all that sexual, anyway. If I hadn’t had so much penis-related trauma, I’m sure I’d be okay with sleeping with a woman with a penis. But that’s not my fault. I didn’t ask to be raped.
I guess, for me, it’s like this family I knew when I was little. The parents wouldn’t let their daughter come to my house because we had guns, and the dad’s brother had died as a result of an accidental shooting when he was a kid and he had witnessed it. Did it suck for me, because I wanted this kid to come play with me? Yeah, and it was really upsetting because I didn’t do anything, I didn’t choose for the guns to be in my house, it wasn’t my fault the dad’s brother died. But it made sense and the dad had every right to be cautious about it. Guns ARE used for violence, all the damn time. And something absolutely horrific and horrible had happened to him as a result of one. And so he had the right to stay away from them. He didn’t need to “work through it.” His reasoning was pretty solid.
And the cotton ceiling thing is gross. You push through the glass ceiling, not through my underwear, please and thank you. No matter the intention, that’s what it sounds like, and it’s pretty damn rapey.
Sorry. Feelings. So many feelings. Frustrated feelings.
Hi Sela,
I read this comment and just wanted to say thank you for having the courage to share your feelings. You’re feelings are valid and real and I for one accept what you are saying with no hesitation.
I think the “vagitarian” thing was purely a joke. I for one laughed a little but I wouldn’t go any further with such a concept than that.
Kind of an odd coincidence you used guns as your analogy, but as someone who has experienced gun-related psychological trauma, I can relate to someone else who might choose to never be around them if possible.
I want to affirm that you have no obligation to be physical with anyone who has a penis if you’re not comfortable with that. At the same time, I just ask that you don’t project interpretations of ‘pure evil’ or something like that onto my body. (Not saying you did, just asking that you please never do).
And as I stated in my article, the cotton ceiling just wasn’t the best analogy, and I apologize that those of us who promoted it at one point (and I am guilty of that) made you feel uncomfortable.
I relate to this 100%
I agree with you on this completely, people can and should have preferences, and yours is one that you don’t align with the definition of other people but specific to your definition of what makes acceptable and comfortable intimacy. I love that.
And the vagitarian, and my Vaginian comment were more to try and point out that no, we don’t NEED these silly terms, because Lesbian works just fine when not used as a link to genitals, but to identity. Lesbians who like penetrative sex are out there, as well as those who cannot or do not ever wish to experience it, for some many reasons. I would never tell either that they aren’t authentic of a Lesbian.
We already have gynophile for people who like vaginas. dunno about penis. these terms are underused so use them!
Uh, no. Being attracted to/wanting to date/wanting to have sex with* only WOMEN is what makes us lesbians. What genitalia the women involved have is irrelevant. They’re women. Full stop. End of story.
If anyone deserves to be equated with abusive reparative therapy here, it’s you and your transmisogyny!
(* also sometimes ladies who identify as lesbians are asexual and this is also ok!)
I did not say that you or any other woman is under any type of obligation to date anyone with whom you are not comfortable. This is clearly stated in the article. If you aren’t attracted to women with penises, you have zero obligation to date those women.
What I said was that any claim that one is “attracted to cis women but not trans women” is non-sensical because there does not exist any clear means to separate the two populations in the first place (you’re own comment below hints at that fact itself).
You could very well be unaware that a woman to whom you are attracted is trans. That doesn’t mean you’re obligated to be physical with her, it just means you’re not entitled to your own where you get to pretend such attraction does not exist.
“you’re not entitled to your own *universe* where you get to pretend such attraction does not exist”
The author specifically stated, multiple times, that no one has any obligation to be attracted to penises. No one should ever feel pressured to do something sexually that they’re not comfortable with (also noted in the article).
Stating “I’m only attracted to cis women” doesn’t make sense because trans* women don’t look any specific way – every person, trans* or cis, is unique. Depending on when/if someone began hormone therapy, and whether or not they’ve had SRS, you may be completely unable to tell if someone is trans* unless they choose to disclose it.
In addition, who are you to tell someone that she isn’t a a real lesbian because she’s attracted to her trans* partner? Everyone is different, and they have the right to identify as they choose. For some people, what genitals someone has play a large role in attraction, for some (myself included) it makes little to no difference.
As am cis, and I don’t understand why so many other cis women get defensive about this. You should only date people you’re interested in – but don’t make unwarranted assumption about people.
Surely what defines a lesbian is a female who is singularly attracted to females.
– ‘Female’, or ‘woman’ is a gender
– A person can identify as any gender regardless of what physical parts they possess or do not possess. Simply put; gender is between the ears, not between the legs. If you do not agree with that, you need informing.
– All together now: Trans*women are female. Following this thought in a nice, logical way; the ones that are attracted to persons of the female gender would fall under the category of ‘lesbian’
So, for you, it’s all about the cock? In a negative way, sure, but you’re still crediting the phallus with far more cultural and determinative power than it ever deserved. You actually do reduce people to their genitals!
Agreed 1000%, Avery! :)
Well put, and seems self-evident. The article’s assertion that there’s no way to tell the difference between M2T and women is laughable. Lesbians can clock them a mile away, and shouldn’t be pressured to entertain these people with dicks as possible romantic/sexual partners. Don’t they hear how ludicrous they sound when talking about “a woman’s dick”, etc.? Lesbians are attracted to women who were born with vaginas, not people born with dicks.
And BTW, having a negative reaction to one dick based on a trauma caused by another dick is not uncommon or to be disparaged. It’s called PTSD, and is not the fault of the woman who experiences it.
By all means, let us hope and work for progress against patriarchy, but don’t expect lesbians to consider M2T as sisters or lovers. People who have/had dicks ARE the patriarchy.
No.
Firstly, stop using “M2T” as a term. It’s insulting. Use the terms that people identify as; wouldn’t you want people to identify you using the same language with which you describe yourself?
Also, I have PTSD. It’s a horrible thing. But it doesn’t make me reduce people to their genitals and make assumptions about them. I cannot change my history of trauma, but I CAN control whether I use that history as a weapon against people who seem somewhat different from me. Contrary to your assumption, many trans* women look indistinguishable from cis women. We are ALL women.
Trans* women are generally oppressed by the patriarchy, not part of it. “The patriarchy” is not having a penis. It’s about having power.
So very this.
Miri: “do you think that the penis is some kind of receiving antenna for male socialisation, and that such cannot possibly be ignored”
Yes. I do. People with penises are showered with privilege, entitlement, and power. M2T people have already been steeped in same, and it shows in every word they speak or write, and certainly in their interactions in the world. They do not exhibit a woman’s way of being with those around her. I re-assert that it is possible, even easy to spot a M2T, no matter how “feminine” they have convinced themselves they are.
Face it folks, you can’t always get what you want. Me, I really want to be an offensive lineman for the Redskins, but even dressing up in uniform won’t transform me into one. Most folks would spot me as not-a-Redskin even if I were fully dressed out.
You are comparing apples and oranges.
Also, your troll is showing.
And here I thought I might find an answer to the question that really bugs me– how does one reconcile being a “woman” with having a dick? I get drag queens; they call themselves girls, but it’s all in fun. Dealing with the dick is just part of representing, part of the illusion. I don’t get how M2T convince themselves that a dick is part of female anatomy.
How’s that for apples and oranges?
Re: “I don’t get how M2T convince themselves that a dick is part of female anatomy.”
For my part – and I speak for nobody else but myself here – I can’t and don’t.
No disrespect intended to those who can, but for me, it an alien thing that my brain doesn’t even recognise as being there unless I consciously think about it (leading to all my life having hurt myself multiple times a day, often whilst standing up, by virtue of simply forgetting that this thing is there).
So no, you can’t say that all trans women convince themselves that it is part of female anatomy; I certainly can’t, and I can’t recognise it as part of my own anatomy, either.
Saying this might not win me many popularity points, but it’s true for me, so.
Here you thought you might troll a little more, not find answers. Drag queens call themselves girls but it is not all in fun – it is more often than not a mere parody of gender used to further the patriarchy, not to challenge it. (Are you learning yet?)
M2T is still derogatory but then I suspect that so are you. There is nothing to “get” there. Ask an able-bodied person to specifically relate to somebody who is not as able-bodied – the connection is just not there. Similarly, you cannot relate as you do not have that connection. The mind is what the mind is.
Lastly, some people can find peace with their bodies and some cannot. (Which I mean in more ways than one – it is just obvious.) Body shaming is really messed up so just quit it already.
Oh there is something that I forgot re: drag queens. It is an act. Once the performance is over, the persona comes off with the clothes, the wigs and the make up.
Trans* people have no such luxury because the persona is not an act. At the end of the day, irrespective of what they are wearing, their gender identity (and personality traits) remains the same.
For me, the answer is simple: surgery. Up until that point, I can only identify as “tormented, tortured, anguished every moment of every day with that sick feeling in the pit of my stomach woman,” not “woman.” Imagine every time you look in the mirror is an experience of horror and disgust. So no, I don’t reconcile the two except by eliminating the only one that can ever be changed.
Because I want the same consideration for my own situation, I accept self-identified trans women who are non-op–and pre-ops who have no problem having and using their penises while they still have them. On a gut level, though, I don’t get it. All I want is this thing off me, and to have the clitoris, labia and vagina that suit me. I can only wait because I have to–the minute I’m even close to having the money, my deposit will be in the surgeon’s hands to hold the date for my real birth.
There are women here who do and would accept me as a woman, even in bed, but I cannot accept myself until I am as I should be. Not much longer. :)
I think it’s just something you come to realize. For example, me? I’m actually a cat, specifically a trans-cat. And people who try to insist that I’m a human instead of a cat are obviously transphobic.
That might make sense if there was an arbitrary biological distinction between what constitutes a human and what constitutes a cat. But that isn’t true and you’re actually not a cat, you’re just bad at making rational arguments.
Farish Cunning: “Don’t they hear how ludicrous they sound when talking about “a woman’s dick”, etc.?”
Every homophobic bigot in the history of homophobic bigotry: “Don’t they hear how ludicrous they sound when talking about “a woman’s wife”, etc.?”
Chandra, comparing “a woman’s wife” with “a woman’s dick” just doesn’t hold up. One is a relationship, one is a (male) body part. Relationships may be had among various people; male body parts are found only on males.
The point being that you have chosen to define the word “male” according to arbitrary standards that suit your biases, just as homophobes have done with the word “marriage”.
And before you object, yes, they ARE arbitrary standards even from a scientific perspective – see the multitude of comments above that have already addressed this.
I wouldn’t be too sure about that, you’re doing a fine job of being a dick.
So sorry it appears that you’ve lost again in the larger women’s community.
It must be tragic when one figures out the world is leaving you behind.
If you try abandoning the master’s tools and open up a real dialogue, we will try to hear you, but not as long as you can’t stop acting like a dick.
I don’t put up with it from little boys either.
If you can’t change, please do keep posting,
you help form new allies with every crude, hurtful, foolish lie you speak.
Exactly, Chandra. Heterosexism and cissexism follow the same logic of patriarchal domination through misogynistic tactics IMO. Both justified through public appeals to male privilege and male and white “respectable” ideals (and their ideal resources to exploit).
Farish Cunning, every time the word ‘lesbian’ appears in your comments, please remove it and replace with ‘I’ or ‘me’ (as grammatically correct). You are free to have your feelings/opinions etc but I don’t recall that global lesbian vote when we all elected you to speak exclusively for us.
Flove, please replace it with “every lesbian I’ve ever known”. And for that matter, most straight people I’ve ever known. My point is, M2T are extremely easy to spot, no matter how much they like to think otherwise. Just like me in my Redskins jersey.
Farish Cunning – I think like most variations of humans on the planet, some trans*women may in fact be more or less visible than others. I would hazard a guess though that depending on any number of variables such as treatment choice and stage, what age it was started, natural appearance including bone structure, ethnicity and age, there would in fact be trans*women you could NOT pick from a mile away.
I think broad generalisations benefit nobody, ever.
Also, apologies for the ambiguity, but my original comment above wasn’t aimed so much at your assertion that ‘Lesbians can clock them a mile away’ but more at your comment that ‘Lesbians are attracted to women who were born with vaginas, not people born with dicks’.
While that may be true in a general, simplistic sense, the fact is that gender and sexual orientation are both such sliding scales that I don’t think anyone has the right to judge what a ‘lesbian’ is or isn’t, especially in such specifics. Logically in my mind this kind of reasoning leads on to ‘you’re not a real lesbian if you’ve EVER slept with a guy/trans*woman/trans*man/anyone other than a cis woman’ etc. The fact is that absolutes don’t exist and trying to exclude a group of people based on arbitrary absolutes is, well, simplistic and baseless.
Finally, in regards to your general gist that lesbians “shouldn’t be pressured to entertain these people with dicks as possible romantic/sexual partners”, I would agree totally with that sentiment, with the minor addition of “but they’re free to if they wish, and still self identify as lesbian if they choose”.
Just to refresh your memory of the original article, the author did state that “[cis Lesbians]should never feel pressured to do anything you don’t want to do or that you’re even unsure about. If you aren’t comfortable or you just aren’t into it, say no”. I’m therefore not sure if you are responding more to the comments than the actual article with your reaction to all this perceived ‘pressure’?
Flove, bottom line is I disagree with the attitudes expressed here re: who’s a woman/lesbian and what body parts those people have. I had hoped for some insight as to how on earth one can seriously refer to “a woman’s dick”; alas, it appears that is not forthcoming.
So, since it seems my posts are considered trolling, I’ll bid you all adieu. Congratulate yourselves–the big butch dyke is gone. :-)
As a teenager uncertain of her sexuality I am deeply disturbed by your comment. When you clearly define a lesbian as someone who cannot be attracted to a person with a penis, you are tearing down what I value most about the queer community. For me, being queer is looking beyond the male/female and man/woman binaries and embracing the true complexity of sex, gender, and sexuality. The beautiful and terrifying reality is that gender, and even sex, is far more complex than having a penis or vagina. Labels are helpful devices that we use to simplify our infinitely complex identities, but they are very limiting. Some lesbians would gladly date a woman with a penis while others would not. Some lesbians like women who wear dresses and some like women who wear suits. People evaluate potential partners on so many different levels that no label could adequately describe an individual’s sexual preferences (and all of the exceptions they’re willing to make). Your limited view of what it means to be a lesbian is disheartening, as I would hope individuals in a queer community would understand and embrace people’s fragmented, postmodern identities.
If you think only cis women qualify for the group “lesbians” and trans women are some kind of intruders, you’re definitely a bigot. Into the vat!
To clarify – that was how i visualized the exclusionary radfems being lost to history; not meant to actually be threatening, though frankly if you oppress someone with PTSD with a patriarchal script and then interpret their every overexcited and impossible mental image as a personal threat, it says a lot about you. Just getting this disclaimer out there before anyone claims their feathers were irreparably ruffled.
Avery for the most part you have this very wrong.
However I do need to note that if you as an individual in your own sexuality feel uncomfortable having sex with someone due to them having a penise is ok. No one is allowed to force you to have sex with someone. You are able to have sex though without involving the penis if you really try though, there are numerous ways around it if you are uncomfortable having sex with a penis.
If you do not want to have sex with someone due to fact they are trans, this is transphobic. Being trans should not be the deciding factor and all elements relating to sex and what you are comfortable with should be discussed with your partner beforehand.
I talk about sex in this comment, because someone having a penis should not affect be a deciding factor at all in other aspects of the relationships.
A very please in future consider the feelings of woman who has the penis, because she could also be quite uncomfortable with it.
And for the cis women like us who are reading this article and think “oh yeah, I already know all this, I’m totally down with trans women”…
Be prepared to be appalled at yourself.
oiiiiii the amount of internalised transmisogyny I had to grapple with when I started dating Phia. Things I didn’t even realise were utterly fucked up, things that I only belatedly realised as fucked up but couldn’t see another way out at the time, things that showed me just how much I had to learn and unlearn.
Thankfully Phia’s been so patient with me that we’re still together (great communication skills HELP), but it would be totally understandable for her to be tired of my BS. It’s a constant work in progress. Those of us who aren’t trans women need to be willing to call ourselves out and work on our assumptions, even – and especially – if we think we’ve got it all right already.
Yes, When I dated someone with trans* herstory I WAS A HOT ASS MESS! Luckily I got over it quickly and since then I have become a fierce ass ally since then.
I’d love to hear more about this! I mean, the subject of this post is extremely relevant to my interests right now, but most of it does sound obvious to me. Savannah and Tiara, what are the next steps to finding out those deeper buried things we need to learn and unlearn, and becoming appalled at ourselves so we don’t appall others first?
Honestly, I don’t think it’s really something you can predict. I know for me it was random shit that came up that triggered my transmisogyny. I’d be halfway through saying something and realising how STUPID it was. I’d only just properly come out as gay and was going through a breakup with a straight cis guy, which didn’t help matters. It’s not a thing you can prepare for, beyond getting as educated as possible – it’s more about recognising what comes up and checking yourself.
Hey MB, don’t beat yourself up, it can happen to trans women too. As a transwoman who had only slept with cisgender women, when I started dating another trans woman I was really nervous that I’d mess it up somehow…that despite finding her really cute and sexually attractive, that when things started happening in the bedroom I’d somehow ‘react’ to the leftover markers of her adolescence. I really didn’t want to do anything that would offend her – including not being an enthusiastic bedmate.
Luckily I found my fears were totally unwarranted. All those little details just added to her – like soft shoulders that just continued on an inch further. :)
Brilliant.
Oh man, Shell and I have been together 7 years now, together through transition, and even having known her when she was still presenting male I STILL sometimes make stupid assumptions about shared experiences sometimes. Its intense and amazing, and I wouldn’t trade it for anything, but being able to cope with embarrassment and feeling like an awful person sometimes was definitely part of my emotional journey.
THANK YOU!! i want to copy this and hand it out at every queer women’s event i go to. (actually, i am going to be moderating a discussion on trans-misogyny at a queer conference in a few weeks and definitely will add this to our reading list!)
Thank you and glad you enjoyed it! And thanks for reading… xo
Thank you! Just brilliant.
Cis is a term that is used to connote privelege. As in “biological females have privilege that trans women do not.” I believe this is false. First of all, there are many bio female people who do not conform to gender stereotypes. My own spouse gets questioning looks and comments all the time when she enters a public restroom. Why? Because she has short hair and wears jeans and comfortable shoes. She does not benefit from so-called “cis privilege.” (conversely, there are plenty of trans women who completely conform to gender stereotypes down to the breast implants, laser hair removal, etc., who do not experience that kind of treatment because they are read as female). Women who don’t shave and refuse to capitulate to gender stereotypes face discrimination and rejection. In fact, no woman benefits from cis privilege because females AS A CLASS are still second class, sexually objectified, abused, and humiliated throughout the world, based on their SEX (not their gender). Females are systemically raped in war because of their sex, not their gender. Females are oppressed and controlled by their reproductive capacity. Having a uteris is downright dangerous for women in many societies. Women die from fistulas, are forced into prostitution, and other atrocities around the world, because of their SEX, not their gender. Cis is a made up term that effectively denies female reality, and places gender at the center of the universe.
Cis privilege is more than just the looks you get (or don’t get) in the bathroom. There are numerous resources online that explain cisgender privilege (such as http://itspronouncedmetrosexual.com/2011/11/list-of-cisgender-privileges/), feel free to Google them and read up.
You are presenting a false dichotomy. Trans rights and women’s rights are not mutually exclusive—in fact they strongly support each other. Nobody is denying the issues faced by people with uteri. Many trans women (and the cis women who love them) are vocal supporters of the right to choose and fight to end rape culture.
Trans acceptance simply means understanding that not all women have uteri (which is true for cis women as well), and that not all people with uteri are men. Trans men also deserve the right to choose, trans men also die from fistulas. Recognizing that simple fact doesn’t mean the fight for equality has to end, it is instead adding another layer of understanding to what the fight for equality is all about.
This expands beyond trans issues; not everyone assigned female at birth has “typical” female anatomy. The experience of cis women isn’t the same across lines of class, race, or ability. There are a wide range of experiences among women. Recognizing that there is more than one way to be a woman does not obstruct the cause of feminism. It strengthens it.
Finally, as a feminist with a clear understanding of what is meant by “social construct”, you should realize that the phrase “made-up term” is essentially meaningless. All terms are made up. They still hold meaning.
LOL, “not all people with uteri are women”. Hello, dyslexia.
Incredibly well written response, I wish I could present the issues as well. Until then I guess I am stuck with being a smart ass. :)
I want to marry this comment
Thanks for this comment, Amy… right on! <3
Thank for pointing that out.
This is a great starting point, thank you so much for writing it!
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oh no this was supposed to be a reply to Avery it was going to be sassy
instead i failed to use the reply option correctly and it’s just sitting here awkwardly, a testament to my lack of technical prowess
:S
i still enjoyed it ftr
It was still super-effective!
EXTERMINATEEEEEE.
Welcome to queer theory. Also, how funny it is that there’s so much inflammation in the lesbian blogosphere about trans women getting mad that “cis” women won’t sleep with them, and yet you would never hear about trans men demanding that gay men sleep with them. Male socialization, anyone?
“and yet you would never hear about trans men demanding that gay men sleep with them”
This is actually a *huge* issue among gay trans men. You haven’t been paying attention.
Uh. Many gay trans dudes *do* want to have sex with gay cis dudes. Because (shocker!) they’re gay! And most of the dating pool is cis! And yes, they do get hurt and upset and angry when gay cis dudes – not just, you know, one gay guy, but every single one they meet – dismiss their identity and refuse to even consider them as possible sexual partners. Because, another shocker, that is CISSEXIST BULLSHIT and it HURTS.
No one is demanding that anyone sleep with them. Savannah is (very politely!) asking that cis ladies who are already interested in being with trans ladies be aware of the cissexist baggage they’ve accrued, and take steps to manage that so they don’t accidentally hurt anyone.
Oh no you didn’t.
As a (mostly) gay trans dude (why do I love this website so much?), I can tell you that I absolutely want gay cis men to sleep with gay trans men. I mean, I would never DEMAND that *anyone* sleep with me – that’s rape, y’all – but I would *certainly* encourage any gay or bi cis guy to think twice about being turned off by vaginas. I’m not saying not liking vaginas on a man is transphobic! You don’t have to! But even if the individual gay cis man (and his desires) isn’t (aren’t) transphobic, the culture of gay cis men may be.
Actual thing that a gay cis man has said to me: “I’m fine with bisexuals – I even consider myself a little bit bisexual because I’ve been attracted to trans men before.”
Well, good for you, well-meaning cis dude. But that comment still resulted in me having to leave the room for a bit to freak out over the sudden certainty that no one was ever going to simultaneously find me attractive and also consider me a man.
(Someday I’ll be able to let that go. I bring up that anecdote too much these days.)
Obviously, all this stuff applies for trans* women and the cis lesbian community, in that, while the individual lesbian may not be transphobic in not wanting to date a trans woman, the culture as a whole may be.
Thank you! I find myself tripping all over my language whenever I’m around transwomen for fear of coming off as cissexist and transmisogynistic, so I really appreciate this! It’s like I become hyper-aware and self-conscious and end up with egg on my face. Or at least, that’s how I feel.
Cissexism is everywhere, even trans women have to unlearn it. Just as all women have to unlearn misogyny. As long as you learn from it, apologize, and keep going, it’s ok to make mistakes! We all do.
I was trying to find a good way to say that I’d try to remember to make sure to call you on your shit no matter how drunk we were at the time without sounding like I represent anyone other than myself or without sounding like trans people in general should go spend time doing outreach. But I guess what I’m really trying to say is that you’ve got friends. And friends don’t tend to let friends say stupid shit without realizing it. If someone’s going to insult me, we’re gonna make sure it’s intentional, you know?
So, hey, hi. Heads up on the keeping it real thing, deal?
deal <3
Hi Dena, most important thing: no one is perfect, let’s keep talking <3
Gender non-conformativity and cis/trans gender identites are not the same thing, and I think you’re confusing them. Someone who has a masculine gender presentation but identifies as a woman and was declared a woman at birth can be cisgendered (my partner falls into this category, for example) but such a person might also identify somewhere on the trans masculine spectrum. These are very complicated issues that you’re really reducing.
The dichotomy of sex versus gender that you’re using is also very complicated and you’re reducing that as well–the idea that women are oppressed only because of physiological sex (something that itself is quite complicated, as a recent article on autostraddle by a woman who’s intersex showed) and not gender is absurd. The line between what is ‘sex’ and what is ‘gender’ is very complex and fuzzy.
Also, the idea that because we live in sexist society that women (you imply this only includes cis women) do not experience any privilege is ricidulous. All different kinds of women experience privilege based on a multitude of other factors–sexual orientation, race, class, ability, and also–whether they are cis or transgender. Trans women can also be privileged in certain categories, such as class/financial status.
Can you please pick up Julia Serano’s book Whipping Girl: A Transsexual Woman on Sexism and the Scapegoating of Femininity because she will say all this and more more eloquently than I am right now because I’m so mad.
Also check out this cisgender privilege list:
http://queersunited.blogspot.ca/2008/08/cisgender-privilege-checklist.html
Let me quote the section of Whipping Girl where Serano argues that ‘male privilege’ does not exist because cis as well as trans men suffer from ‘oppositional sexism’ and we all suffer from gender(ed) oppression in equal measure,
‘The concept of “male privilege” emerged out of an incorrect assumption that sexism functions as a unilateral form of oppression. According to this model, men unilaterally oppress women, and thus they reap all of the benefits, while women bear all of the hardships. This, however, is a gross oversimplification of sexism for a numerous reasons. First, the concept of unilateral sexism denies other important factors, such as racism, classism, ableism, etc, that contribute to discrimination. After all, it’s difficult to make the case that a rich white woman is more oppressed than a poor black man in our culture. Second, it ignores oppositional sexism, which favors those with typical gender inclinations over those with exceptional ones, regardless of sex. For example, if you happen to be attracted to men, then your life will certainly be easier in many respects if you happen to be female rather than male. And if you happen to be feminine, you will surely be less marginalized for your gender expression if you are a woman rather than a man. While some cissexual women assume that men have a monopoly on gender privilege, this is not the case. Many trans men have written at length about both the male privileges they gained post-transition, as well as the numerous ways their lives became more difficult, complex, or even dangerous once they were regularly perceived as male. Their comments have been echoed by Norah Vincent, a cissexual woman who spent over a year and a half socially “passing” as a man as part of an investigative journalism project. These perspectives, which all come from people who were born and socialized as female, help demonstrate how oppositional sexism ensures that both maleness and femaleness come with their own very different sets of privileges, restrictions, expectations and assumptions.’
I’m amazed by the fact that people keep recommending this book as a good resources on trans issues / something that accurately describes reality – I picked it up thinking it would be great, but was horrified by how inaccurate it is pretty quickly. I think it’s not that hard to come up with a way of thinking about gendered / sexed oppressions without claiming that ~we all suffer equally under patriarchy~. I feel tempted to say that it would be useful to remember that the sex/gender oppression(s) system is very old and it originated when we had non-binary models of gender, when the (white & able-bodied) cis / straight / gender-conforming man was the universal (think, Vitruvian Man) and everybody else was failed versions of him (this had a huge influence even on how medical treaties were written / how people understood the anatomy of FAABs). It sounds a bit weird because we no longer think about gender / sex that way, but doesn’t it make so much sense to think about oppression as (kind of) radiating away from cis maleness because bodies / lives which present as failed versions of cis maleness are assigned different degrees of worth / liveability? this way of thinking would also account for the ways in which ‘sex / gender’ itself is highly raced (because in the West ideal cis maleness is white) which means that rather than racial oppression somehow magically ‘cancelling out’ gender(ed) privilege(s), gender(ed) privilege(s) are modified by race.
I don’t agree with everything Julia says, just as I don’t agree with everything any other feminist says. However, just because her writing may have a few holes (true of every academic, ever) doesn’t mean we should throw the baby out with the bath water. There are still a lot of solid points in Whipping Girl, moreso than 99.9% of cis academic writing on trans issues.
She consistently tries to set up a system of understanding gendered / sexed oppressions in which cis women are the most privileged because they’re granted access to ‘traditional femininity’ most easily, it’s not really a minor hole in her argument?
I sort of feel like we can’t even start to be having these conversations about ‘femininity’, traditional or otherwise, without figuring out a better way of understanding gender and agency, and the varying degrees to which different people have agency over their gender(ed) self-perception and (self)presentation. By which I mean, I wish we could find a way to talk about our genders without collapsing everything into two comfortable narratives, either our gender self-perception is 100% authentic (inborn, ‘in our brains’) or it’s completely manufactured by ‘the patriarchy’ as a tool of subjugation. I feel like both narratives are false as well as oppressive – while also accounting only for gender self-perception in the white west – we have no gendered self before we gender other people and the act of gendering other people, that is, deciding the degree of authenticity their gender presentation has without their permission (without, e.g. asking them for their pronouns) is inherently oppressive / part of systematic oppression so our gender(ed) self-perception is also inherently very very complicated and problematic because it arises from or, at least at the same time, as we oppress others, you know? things make so much sense intuitively but they’re so complicated to explain blaahhh ry56trhfhvd
You know, I went back to look that Serano’s writing, because it didn’t recall her denying male privileged when I read it. Guess what – she doesn’t. She just explains any time you talk about privilege you have to talk about intentionality. Here is a quote from an article she wrote:
“Of course, male privilege is a real phenomenon. In my book Whipping Girl, I discuss my own experience with male privilege—and losing it post-transition—at great length. However, trans people’s experiences of male privilege vary greatly depending upon the direction of one’s gender transgression or transition, the age one transitions (during early childhood, as a teenager or at various points in adulthood), one’s sexual orientation, whether one “passes” as cisgender, one’s race and so on. It’s impossible to talk accurately about male privilege—or any aspect of sexism—without framing it in terms of intersectionality.”
http://msmagazine.com/blog/2012/04/18/trans-feminism-theres-no-conundrum-about-it/
Oh, I failed to mention a book page reference, I’m sorry – the bit I quoted is from pages 307-308, it’s definitely in the book, I didn’t make it up. I never said that she experienced male privilege, just that she consistently tries to suggest that cis women are privileged over cis men whom they oppress through ‘oppositional sexism’ because of their access to ‘traditional femininity’.
Defining heterosexism as a ‘variation’ of sexism somehow equivalent or parallel to or derivative of ‘traditional’ sexism (in which women are oppressed by men) is puzzling and troubling, especially since Serano’s point throughout (like in her book) is prove that sexism as a men-oppress-women-end-of-story system doesn’t *really* exist. As a queer woman I don’t feel like straight women have the cultural power / influence to drive my oppression heterosexist although they are complicit to it – well, it’s not just a feeling, I know this to be true, heterosexual institutions like marriage are used to oppress heterosexual women (by hiding rape / domestic abuse) – so even within heterosexism, in my view / experience (including that of receiving homophobic abuse almost always only from men), it kind of is men-oppress-women-end-of-story. But then she says that heterosexism’s main mechanism of oppression is viewing heterosexuals are ‘more legitimate’ than homosexuals which is strange – especially since she goes on to say that monosexism is viewing people attracted exclusively to members of one sex are more legitimate than bi/pan folk – it’s like??? did you really say that not considering bi/pan people ‘legitimate’ is oppressive right after you defined heterosexism as a system of oppression made up of only ‘heterosexuals’ and ‘homosexuals’??? where does heterosexism as ‘heterosexuals are more legitimate than homosexuals’ leave people who are neither heterosexual nor homosexual?
I kind of side-eye white people who constantly invoke ~intersectionality~ then go on to theorize the ways in which racial oppression works as if it’s not fundamentally not okay for white people to create the theoretical frameworks through which we understand how racism works. But I’m not sure if it’s entirely appropriate for me to be uncomfortable with this? I am white(-passing?), but I’m an Eastern European immigrant in the UK – I am uncomfortable with white ‘natural born’ citizens trying to explain how xenophobia works, so I disbelieve everything white westerners say about what oppressions they cause and benefit from. If I think of the ways in which Eastern European male immigrants are positioned next to a ‘natural born’ citizen white British or USian woman, I never conclude that they don’t have ‘male privilege’. Does a ‘natural born’ citizen have (more) voting rights, earn more money, is a lot less likely to be arrested by the police? yes. but does she have all those privileges over me as well? yes. are we both a lot more likely to be raped than male immigrants? again, yes although my risk of sexual violence is a lot higher. Clearly, immigrants hold little cultural power / influence, but a male immigrant still benefits from male privilege because he’s male – because our society / culture is set up to privilege men. And I mean, all of that is kind of irrelevant because I have so many issues with saying men in racially / ethnically underprivileged groups don’t have ‘male privilege’ when they clearly have privilege within their own communities / when compared to their female counterparts – e.g. horrific amounts of domestic violence are ignored / tolerated in Eastern European immigrant communities precisely because the perpetrators are men.
Oh wow, okay this ended up being a very long and increasingly irrelevant post which clogs up the page with irrelevancy, I’m just really suspicious of Serano’s repeated attempts to excuse cis men’s privileges, I wish she’d stop doing this, it’s just entirely unnecessary and self-defeating – and I don’t like the fact that this understanding of how sexism works seems to be popular in trans feminist circles. Also I wanted to try to give you as complete / coherent an answer as possible.
I personally loved Whipping Girl, and really liked that it had a different take on privilege than most academic work. I also don’t agree with everything she says (true of any author), and I would not go so far as to say that male privilege does not exist. However, it is much more complicated than many people appreciate.
Serano picks up on a lot of aspects of privilege that are often overlooked – for example, that people often react very negatively to traditional femininity in men (and anyone read as male) – for an overtly feminine man, his sex, in combination with his behavior, puts him at high risk of harassment, even violence.
Privilege is very complex, and I think she captures that fact better than most. I, as a middle-class white woman, am in a very privileged position relative to a poor, uneducated Black man living in the ghetto. And it isn’t just that my white privilege outweighs his male privileged – the intersection of being black and male comes with its own set of serious issues (e.g. being profiled by the police, being viewed as dangerous/aggressive, etc.).
I did not get the impression AT ALL that Serano was saying that we are all equally effected by the patriarchy – at least not in the sense that there aren’t specific problems that women face. You don’t have to like the book of course – just wanted to defend it because it’s one of my favorites.
“Male privilege” is IMO a shorthand for not-misogyny-recipient privilege, because it’s mostly men who benefit by it. Even so it’s clear it exists on a sliding scale where less feminine women receive a little less misogyny, all the way up to masculine men having their privilege lightly dented by feminine associations (Beckham’s skirt).
The idea that less feminine women receive less misogyny is such a shrieking pile of nonsense that I don’t even know what to say. Talk to a butch lesbian- an adult, not a teenager or someone in her early twenties- about the misogyny she has been dealing with every day for decades for being unfeminine.
Smits, you are so right. As butch dykes, we are the targets of huge heaping helpings of misogyny, because we are not the dollies straight males require for their viewing pleasure. Being masculine-of-center does not garner us any privilege. On the contrary,we are hated for being perceived as not-quite-female, but not-quite-male.
savannah, thank you! you know how sometimes you think(know) you’re awesome but then you get hit with some kind of new situation and suddenly you’re stepping all over your feet and doing stupid things you would never do because you are cool as a cucumber? that would be me. so basically i’m saying thank you for this 101 so that i can worry less about stumbling and more about impressing my date with my domestic prowess and knowledge of linguistics (or whatever) if and when i find myself on a date with a trans* lady.
Another linguist?? Slow down, heart!
How is there not a cunning linguist joke in here yet???
Crude. lol
aww, that was such a sweet comment Laura, thank you!! hoping you’ll have some amazingly fun date with some lucky trans woman in the near future :)
xo
This comment is addressed to Avery, fyi.
I really don’t buy into words like masculine and feminine. They refer to stereotypes that are particularly harmful to women.
That’s a very interesting dictionary you’re using.
thanks for the great article!
I have a general question about an issue that was briefly raised and I apologise if it is hijacking or taking the discussion away from the main issues. please also let me know if I’ve said anything wrong/inappropriate.
in the representation of trans * people in the mainstream lesbian media I understand and agree that trans men’s stories are much more prominent than those of trans women and that this needs to change. however I have heard the ‘but trans men aren’t women’ phrase in other forums as well (most recently at a femme conference) and have to ask why this very rigid definition? particularly when it comes to social definitions and spaces e.g. women only spaces. do trans men’s histories of (most likely) having lived as/been read as/assigned female and all the consequences of that in our botp world just disappear after transition is complete? what about those people who consider transition and who waver around that point, are they supposed to leave or rejoin the female community depending on how they identify on the day? I am genuinely curious.
“I apologise if it is hijacking or taking the discussion away from the main issues”
I think that is an accurate assessment.
IT NEVER CEASES TO AMAZE ME!
We have a discussion about trans*women and somehow “what about the menz!!!! (trans* version)” pops up.
It’s like trans*women can never have a discussion directed FOR THEM FOR FUCKS SAKES without some usually fucking it up.
Wow.
Amy and all of you beautiful women identifying people have sooooo much more patience than me in dealing with this because I feel worn out just reading this comment thread. I guess I’m just so frustrated with the lesbian trans*women erasure in these discussions and it makes me angry!
Again I want to say that you are doing great work here in educating and I just wish one day this would happen less.
I’m going to rage bake now and think of all of you wonderful people so my baking comes out edible and filled with all the les(bi)an trans*women love.
Rage Baking is now my new favorite term. :) This is such a good idea.
I WILL BAKE THESE COOKIES WITH THE FIRE OF MY RAGE! for 8 to 10 minutes.
Unrelated, but I’ve been drinking (open bar!)
Shelby did I see you in the Chicagostraddlers group and do you believe in gluten free rage baking because if you do we should bake together sometime because you seem neat.
RAGE BAKE GLUTEN FREE CUPCAKES WITH NUTELLA BUTTERCREAM
I am all for this! OMG Sounds so GOOD!
I am over using exclamation points!!!
I’m inviting myself.
given the amount of vitriol I would like to apologise again. I am very aware of these kinds of threads being hijacked by trans men issues when it is a trans women focused article. I just thought that I would seek some education about trans* issues in general, given that the source of my question was in fact mentioned (perhaps in a short throwaway statement) in the original post. in fact I would have been interested in the views of trans women on this point as I have primarily heard it from other trans women. I accept that this may have not been the most ideal forum, but don’t discussions and conversations arise out of side issues? thank you for your time.
This is a really good example of acknowledging where you went wrong, apologizing, and moving on without getting defensive. Good job.
I noticed no one had to bake their asses off to handle it when (some) of those same people posted earlier on this thread on the same issue (the menzzzzzzz) that later had ovens turning on around the world:
“This is actually a *huge* issue among gay trans men. You haven’t been paying attention” and:
“Uh. Many gay trans dudes *do* want to have sex with gay cis dudes. Because (shocker!) they’re gay! And most of the dating pool is cis! And yes, they do get hurt and upset and angry when gay cis dudes – not just, you know, one gay guy, but every single one they meet – dismiss their identity and refuse to even consider them as possible sexual partners. Because, another shocker, that is CISSEXIST BULLSHIT and it HURTS.”
But later mon’s post, which she even started out by apologizing if it was not right to include, clearly was not setting out to derail anything, was respectful, yet was attacked with such fury and scorn:
“It’s like trans*women can never have a discussion directed FOR THEM FOR FUCKS SAKES without some usually fucking it up” and “I think that is an accurate assessment” and “I WILL BAKE THESE COOKIES WITH THE FIRE OF MY RAGE.”
Despite this, she has the courtesy to apologize again and posts a rational and appropriate post that clearly shows maturity and intelligence yet gets a response so condescending that of all the comments about wanting to hurl, that one did it for me.
The comment policy also is a one way street today–I get it directed toward the one it was–but the unbelievably rude, cruel and mocking comments by so many supporting this article, (and yes, quite a few by those not liking this article/thread) without anything said surprised me. I have seen editors step in way, way, earlier and for far less on other posts when comments get to this point. Yet today, nothing.
Usually I am the first to have to bake cookies when people are edited/checked. But this thread left unchecked did not do it any favors.
yeah there’s a lot on this thread i feel really unpleasant feelings about. like i said below i have been on the road all day and am just catching up with this post now. we have our amazing moderators but i don’t think i’ve been giving them consistent guidance because i don’t feel consistent about what to do… i feel like the concept of what gets moderated seems SO subjective that i don’t know how to possibly begin making a fair one. even the basic concept of “moderating” an enormous conversation is really tricky and feels like not something that my brain was made to do. i mean, it would be official rules, but driven by my own opinion. i am really looking forward to the redesign when we can collapse arguments so they don’t visually derail my entire brain, and i think that will help some but that’s some months off, and i don’t know what to do in the meantime. i want to have a flag on everybody’s comment that i can check off when i think they’re being meanies. [ETA: by “meanies” i meant people who are being unnecessarily bitchy on all threads on all posts on this site. i was not referring to the trans misogynist assholes, who are simply trans misogynist assholes and deserve much worse than a “little flag i can check off,” such as being deleted.] The terrible thing is when we start moderating comments, we get tons of comments complaining about the moderation that we have to moderate. it’s basically like starting a virus.
“redesign where we can collapse arguments”
I want to gay marry this idea so hard. seriously, that is going to be amazing, and worth waiting for.
hahahaha violent transmisists = meanies
playing lip service to inclusivity as always 10/10
obviously that was meant to say transmisogynists, which is exactly what is going on the comment section here but apparently they’re just meanies, cos that’s all vile and often violent bigotry is right? folks being mean?
no i said “meanies” to refer to people who are mean on a variety of topics and posts across the site.
violent transmisogynists are gross assholes, not meanies, and obviously deserve treatment far harsher than a little button i can check off.
Looking up I see that my Rage Baking comment could be seen as a Massive OMG THE MENZZ thing. I loved that Mon discussed that and the way everyone spoke about it eventually.
I was more amused by the term “RAGE BAKING” than the psuedo-derail and correction. The ability to see a problem, discuss it and correct it is a wonderful thing. I apologize to Mon, because I was far more for Rage Baking, than angry at the comment that inspired what I thought was a hilarious image in my head. :P
yeah! you guys don’t yell at mon! these are accusations of bad faith and it’s not fair. can everybody please be kind? don’t jump on people like this unless they really deserve it, please!
(also, i was in a car on the road for seven hours today with an almost-dead phone that was out of service, so i’m just now seeing the thread)
Yea….
Like when someone says “maybe I might be hijacking/derailing/un-p.c./offensive” in a space is not really about you or the topic really want to bring up just not do it? Look, I could have expressed my frustration with “what about the menz” in a way that did not read as “vitriol” or should have “more respect” because mon is a good person (I am seriously not being sarcastic about this). It’s just so frustrating when having these conversations online and in real life it keeps happening or anything similar to the derailing that goes on in trans*women issues. We all make mistakes and I do really appreciate mon was not defensive given my response was taken to be vitriol/too much/whatever. I do the same thing too (not being so defensive, correct myself all that jazz) when I mess up and feel like the response was too much.
All is good here I made cookies out of this discussion!
Clarification:
“Like when someone says “maybe I might be hijacking/derailing/un-p.c./offensive” in a space is not really about you or the topic really want to bring up just not do it? ”
I just want to make sure that statement is meant for how *I* go about these discussions when topics are not about me and I want to learn and be a better ally.
Again I like thank those in this community who have more patience than me (trust I am working on it :D) to educate those while being respectful. I seriously want to give all these people my rage bake cookies, they came out great!
no worries bra.
i personally am learning a lot from this whole series of articles and i’m still at the information absorption stage. i am not at all challenging the viewpoints or experiences of the writers, in fact i very much appreciate their sharing.
i definitely understood your criticism and didn’t take your tone super seriously. but again i want to reiterate that my question was the result of a series of thoughts in my head, that i had after reading a particular small phrase in the article. and so i thought i would ask it although it was not really related to the main issues of the article. perhaps i didn’t make this clear enough. i don’t have much to say about the rest of the article other than it is greatly appreciated, as per above.
my intention was definitively NOT to indicate any preferential focus on trans*men issues over trans*women issues and i’m sorry it was interpreted that way. i was just aiming to widen the discussion from a brief point in the article i picked up on, NOT to replace it with other issues. to be honest neither trans*women or trans*men spaces are for me and i want everyone ever to be equal and also i want to know everything about everything! however i understand why people are upset so i will wait for a better opportunity to ask the question again.
The discussion you were interested in is actually a super interesting and odder part of some deep trans community dynamics. I hope it’s something you can get exposed to at some point and I’m glad you’re interested, even if this isn’t the place that’s necessarily a great one for it. I have some mixed feelings about some of it and so I’m not sure exactly where I’d recommend someone start if they were interested in those issues, but if you started going through writing by trans women you’ll probably stumble on some good discussion in this area at some point. I know Imogen Binnie often has interesting things to say about this type of stuff and Natalie Reed and those she references and links to probably serve as another good jumping off point to explore writings by trans women.
mon! i think everybody jumped on you a bit here. i feel like this thread is so heated right now because there’s these really terrible things being said and you kinda got caught in the crossfire. anyhow, thank you for the measured and humble response to the corrections, regardless of how i feel about their tone, i probably would’ve been really defensive if i were you and you weren’t. so, props. there’s a lot that we all have to learn but let’s respect when somebody has good intentions!
Just FTR- I thought this was a perfectly acceptable question and did not deserve the brush-off that it received. I admit, I don’t quite have the energy to address the original commentator’s question at this point after reading through all that, but come one, let’s cut each other some slack and kinda lean towards being friends with one another rather than look for constant reasons to call each other out. Thanks.
thank you. and i’ll cut you some slack on not answering (though you should not feel obliged!) as i’m sure you have your hands full! :)
I wish these kind of discussion pieces happened out in the general population.
To add to the constructive dialogue here, regarding sex:
One important thing to remember when getting intimate with trans women is that we often use different words to describe our bodies, especially our genitalia if pre-op/non-op. It’s a pretty good idea to discuss beforehand what language works and what doesn’t. If you’ve been dating awhile already you may have already learned some of this; if you’re having a casual encounter you may want to discuss it up-front to avoid awkwardness later. It can be as simple as “Are there any words you like? Any words I should avoid?”
A lot of pre-op/non-op trans women also don’t like to be touched in ways we’re trained to associate with that anatomy. Not everyone with a penis likes erections or likes to penetrate. This is pretty easy to navigate using basic communication you’d use during sex with anyone: “Is this ok? Do you like this? Show me how you like to be touched.”
In both instances above, the trans woman you’re with may not *know* the answers. Many of us are still in the process of unlearning what society teaches us about bodies, and learning what we *actually* like. We may also still be going through hormonal changes, which can completely change sexual response in unanticipated ways. In those situations, experimentation and communication is the key! Along with overt displays of support and validation.
Thank you for the additional info, Amy. I appreciate it. Especially the part about how hormones might change things is something that I wasn´t even aware of.
— — — — — —
Also – and that is something that I want to say to all trans* girls – the way you handle this conversation and the way you carry yourself and the world around you is impressive. You are amazing and strong and incredible! Every. single. one. of. you.
Great article, I am really glad that Autostraddle is a safe place for us trans* women despite the obvious malcontentedness from some folks.
It is a difficult world to maneuver in when not everyone is exactly like what we expect. I’m definitely one of those people who isn’t comfortable being sexual with other people until I have surgical intervention. But I still want the romantic parts of a relationship. For the most part, I’m fine being alone since I’m content with a low libido and am quite a introvert.
This comment has been flagged as it is a violation of Autostraddle’s comment policy.
Jeez. I didn’t even get past the introduction without needing to hurl. But, with dedication to the WBW cause, I read on, gagging and crying out in a combination of disbelief and rage all the way.
Talk about narcissistic personality disorder – on top of the autogynephilia this poor sop suffers from (although that may be a question of chicken and egg…)
No, this article isn’t for us “real” lesbians and “old-skool” feminists who still believe that gender is a tool for partiarchy to keep females in their place (subordinate to men). No, this is for the queer gals. the the fun feminists, the sex-poz feminists, the “into-kink” straight women… Lesbians are NOT INTO DICK. And as long as DICK is attached to a body = Male.
And no, I’m not missing out on any “super sexy fun”, and neither are my “born and raised as girls and women” lesbian sisters. Good Lord in Heaven.
Emma, we got the troll quota filled above, but thanks.
Emma, that is the most revolting comment I have ever had the displeasure of reading on Autostraddle. I am so angry that I am shaking right now.
Who the *hell* do you think you are? You are being transphobic, and using genitals as a tool of oppression against another human being. Sounds kind of like you are The Man, as you “old-skool” lesbians like to say.
I’m a lesbian, I identify as a woman who loves other women. Your comment is transphobic, and makes identifying as a “lesbian” an exclusive club where sex-positive feminists are not welcome.
There’s nothing I can write that hasn’t already been stated, but I would suggest you read through the comments above discussing bio-essentialism, cis privilege and how to not be an asshole before posting.
Love?
Yep, love!
And this is why I <3 Brianne.
Nobody is asking you to like dick Emma. We are just asking you to STFU and step off of our identities. Take your old school essentialist white washed privileged feminism and troll somewhere else.
Wow, this whole comment…just gross. If a trans man hasn’t had surgery due to lack of money or desire (especially given that surgery for them is less advanced in terms of results), does that make them still a woman? I’ve noticed that the sort of people espousing the bullpucky you’re dishing tend to assume that trans men are just women who are so addled that they think they want to be men. Would you agree with that statement?
For what it’s worth, I’m a “born and raised as a girl/woman” lesbian and I didn’t even get past the first sentence of your comment without needing to hurl. Your transphobic garbage holds no weight with me and many other cis ladies here.
Plus, I’d rather be part of this so called “fun feminists” group anyway, so if you could point me in their direction, that would be grrrreeeeaaaattt.
For those who don’t know, “autogynophilia” is the idea that trans lesbians are actually cisgendered men who get so powerfully aroused by imagining themselves as women that they gladly go through the process of hormonal and surgical transition, all for the sake of getting off. Needless to say, there’s very little evidence for this theory, and many trans lesbians, including myself, find the idea highly offensive.
So, Emma, while I don’t doubt that, as an “old-school” feminist, you did a lot to fight the patriarchy back in the day, I think these words are the ones that best express how I feel about transphobic people like you:
“Come mothers and fathers
Throughout the land
And don’t criticize
What you can’t understand
Your sons and your daughters
Are beyond your command
Your old road is
Rapidly agin’
Please get out of the new one
If you can’t lend your hand
For the times they are a-changin’.”
Emma – comments like this are not only rude, they are down right irresponsible. If someone talked about you that way, how do you think you would feel? If people in the LGBT community – people you hoped were your allies – told you that just thinking about you made them want to vomit? Think about what that would do to your self-esteem and sense of self-worth. The rate of attempted suicide in the trans* community is staggeringly high, and seeing how cruel people can be I’m very sad, but not surprised. I have a close friend who is trans and I have seen her hurt over and over again by people like you – often enough for the hatred to be internalized. It is not OK to talk about other human beings like that.
Date whoever you want, but keep your hate to yourself. And please, think before you speak: words can cut as deeply as any weapon.
I actually almost feel sorry for you. I can’t imagine what it would be like to be filled with so much hate. It must be very lonely.
Jinkies! I didn’t even get past your fourth comma without needing to hurl. But, with dedication to masochism and 20mg of domperidone, I read on, shoving sewing needles under my toenails in a combination of boredom and hematolagnia all the way.
Talk about masochistic personality traits – on top of the vegan gyro the poor sap that I am just consumed (although that may be a question of duck, duck and grey duck (or goose if you prefer (it’s good for the gander (grey or otherwise)))…) Tzatziki! I have found it.
No, this article isn’t for trans-exclusionary lesbians and “old-skool” feminists who still believe that transgender people are tools to keep throwing under the bus (subordinate to the L in the LGBT). No, this is for the queer gals. The the fun feminists, the sex-poz feminists, the “into-kink” straight women… and the lesbians, though they may NOT BE INTO DICK. And as long as a DICK is attached to a brain = dickbrain.
And yes, I’m missing out on “super sexy fun”, and so are my “born and raised as girls and women” lesbian sisters. Good Lord in Heaven, I need a date.
I am so for using Tzatziki as an interjection.:)
I dunno… It has cucumber in it and cucumbers are rather phallic.
Yikes! Tzatziki? cucumbers? phallic? DICK! *everybody run and hide*
(hey, if the TERFs can make phallic slippery-slope logic arguments, can’t we?)
*removes tongue from cheek*
Some mutated cucumbers may not be – but apparently nobody wants to sleep with a deformed cucumber. =(
HOW DARE YOU JUDGE MY CUKENESS!
SelfDelve offer some hand made cucumber dildos… You might want to reexamine your reasons :D
http://selfdelve-shop.de/Garten-Eden:::2.html
la, la, la…
ROFLOL! Hey I pointed it out as an “apparent” thing! XD
I really don’t know where to stick this into the conversation, but I feel it needs to be said.
Trans women and Cis women are both “biologically female.” Genitals, hormones, the body overall may change, but a brain’s sex is pretty static for most people.
“But Quinn, brains are gender, not sex.”
I’m getting to that! Introducing phantom genitals (in a research study):
http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/news/phantom-genitals-hint-gender-brain/
Uh-oh? What can this mean? Many transwomen have brainmaps for female bodies, not male ones. What about the 30% who do? In that case I’d point you to two things: 1) There’s plenty of people who don’t fit in the gender binary whose maps could dictate all sorts of things, so it makes sense that brainmaps in women may vary. 2) If you pay attention to studies done on the way the brain works, or if you’ve seen some recent documentaries on scientific research you may recall a few tests that got someone used to thinking a hand that is not their own is actually connected to them and the fake hand was smashed and the person reacts. The brain is capable of redrawing something over time.
“But doesn’t that disprove what you were saying?”
No, because there’s still the matter of the chemical washes one undergoes in the womb and how they dictate one’s development. Some washes will effect the brain’s sex some the genitals, and still others to effect different other things and the body may not be receptive to certain washes anyway!
So can we stick to cis and trans if we feel the need to differentiate?
(I got other issues with stuff that was said, but what needed saying got said in those cases)
[Enjoyed your article btw and the recent amendment in regards to sex. Some transwomen like to use the penis, but this girl can’t wait to get the plumbing reworked and has not intention of utilizing the current fixtures in traditional fashion].
Acccctually, the science says that the brain in fact doesn’t really have links to biological ‘sex’. As in – there’s really no such thing as a female brain or male brain. Aaand if there were – as everyone has already pointed out – there would be way more than just two variations.
Also! The brain is hardly static. In fact, the science (seeing as everyone is so intent on it!) seems to suggest that the brain is really quite malleable. The hormones in our bodies change depending on the situations that we’re in and the chemicals in our brains adapt to our social situations. If you tell someone to think of themselves as feminine (regardless of sex), it changes the way they function.
Most recent studies tend to show that our social environments have just as much of if not more of an effect on our bodies than the other way around. Also, I don’t think there’s very much in the way of reliable methodology for the testing of in womb chemical washes.
Not that I think we should ‘sex’ people based on genitals (haha!), I just don’t think we should need to find biological reasons for the way that people experience or identify their embodiment. There’s no way to look at any of the biology outside of cultural discourse anyways.
“I just don’t think we should need to find biological reasons for the way that people experience or identify their embodiment. There’s no way to look at any of the biology outside of cultural discourse anyways.”
Yes, I’m a bit uncomfortable with all the brainsex talk going on here, given how sexist and problematic I find most brainsex science. I don’t for a moment believe that trans* women are not women, with or without penises, but I’m skeptical about the idea that women have different brains from men and that having a “female brain” is what makes trans* women and cis women women. Brainsex “differences” can often be explained by socialisation and, as you say, the cultural discourse from which they are inseparable. See Cordelia Fine’s “Delusions of Gender” for more!
FTR- I for one more or less agree with this statement. I’m skeptical that there is a basis for considering there to be a “female brain” that is fundamentally different from a “male brain.” Personally, I rely on “gender identity” to decide who is a woman and who is a man not necessarily because I think it provides a perfect answer to the question, but more because I just don’t know of any better, more reliable system.
The way I look at it. . .I’m female and a woman (and trans) and, therefore, my body is female, my biology is female, my brain is female, my genitals are female, and so on. I’m not female because I have a female brain. . .I have a female brain BECAUSE I AM FEMALE. Female/woman is the best word to fully describe the sex/gender aspects of who I am. And because I am a whole person and can’t be split up into different disjointed parts. . .all the parts of me are by definition also female. And I see the question “why am I a female?” as similar to the question “why am I a person?” The answer is complicated and is more philosophical, linguistic, and political than it is scientific. So ultimately, I think science has very little to do with who is female and who is male (and who is something else entirely). It boils down to this: either we want to live in a world where we believe the self-descriptions people have for themselves or we want to live in a world where we believe the descriptions oppressors place on the people they are oppressing. I know which world I want to live in.
GO TEAM AUTOSTRADDLE FOR ASKING FOR TRANS* AUTHORS TO SUBMIT ARTICLES.
Savannah, it takes a lot of grit to post an article like this. Thank you for reaching out and seeking to educate/help others.
Over the past year I have been trying to learn how my language can be taken as transphobic, when that is not my intention.
This piece is wonderful-love the dry wit. Thank you for submitting it.
Thanks for reading and for your sweet comments Brianne! xo
This was quite nice. Thank you for contributing an important piece, Savannah. I particularly like this statement from the Reddit article you linked to which tied in nicely:
“Saying you’re “not attracted to trans women” as a blanket statement cannot have a basis in empirical reality, but purely in prejudice. It’s not like not being attracted to redheads or blondes or butches, it’s like not being attracted to immigrants, children of blue-collar workers or survivors of cancer. “Trans” is, for the numerical majority of trans women, a history which says nothing about the person.”
Thank you, and yes, I got a lot out of that (relatively short, but insightful) reddit piece as well… helped me get me thoughts straight on how to approach the wording on a couple of things in this article. xo
Lawd the amount of radscum I’m seeing in these comments makes me want to hurl things in their general directions. Fuck y’all.
I had to get that out of the way first.
But more importantly, thank you, Savannah, for publishing this. I don’t want to derail this discussion with my cis guilt and lesbian identity confusion, so I’ll just keep it short and sweet: thanks. This has helped me immensely sort through some issues I’ve been dealing with. <3
Yes, yes, yes. Jenn has articulated my thoughts precisely.
“Thank you Savannah” cannot be said loud enough.
Thank you for your sweet comment, glad if you felt a connection with :)
xo
p.s. I’m not a big fan of this phrase “radscum” as I think it pollutes what should be an intellectual conversation that has love and respect for one another as its starting point… even when dealing with others who clearly do not share such principles.
*a connection with it* – I have a horrible habit of leaving words out of sentences, often in awkward ways lol
story of my life.
As the cis-female partner of a trans woman, I enjoyed and appreciated this article. It’s important to acknowledge and expand the acceptance of transwomen within the lesbian community. But I do have a bone to pick with you. Your privilege denial is extremely offensive.
“I have to say that having a penis never got me special treatment in the academic world.”
This is akin to a white person saying that they have never had economic privilege because they’ve worked for everything they have. You were, however unfairly, socialized as a male. That means that, unlike cisgender women, you were not instilled since toddlerhood with the idea that you would never be good at math or engineering. You were not given Barbies to dress while your brothers were given chemistry sets and microscropes to play with. Your teachers likely presumed that you would be good at math and science, and you weren’t given weird looks as a kid if you said that you wanted to grow up to be a technician or an astrophysicist.
I in no way deny that you are a woman. However, to deny that you were raised and steeped in male privilege is to deny that sexism exists. You are a feminist, and that means being willing to acknowledge privilege–any kind of privilege– when you have it.
I think this part of the article could use some clarification, particularly because I think this sentence is vague, and non-specific to the period of time the author is referring to. She writes:
“As a woman I have to say that having a penis never got me special treatment in the academic world”
and I think where the confusion lies in this sentence is between “”As a woman” and the use of the word “never.” I am inclined to read this as the author stating that In her lived experience as a woman, while she has been presenting as a her authentic self, her penis has never gotten her special treatment, NOT to say that she has – NEVER – in her life received academic privileges.
Again, this part is the only part of this essay I take issue with, and my only issue is that I think it needs clarification – I think my reading of it makes sense within the context of the questioning of body parts – not presentation – giving privilege in the specific context of the ‘sausage fest’ comment. But, I’d rather let the author speak to her intent with this line!
Great article. Much needed. Thank you so much, Savannah!
I had the same gut reaction as Genevra, but then when I read it again, I took the same stance as you, fuj
I see what you’re saying and that may have been Savannah’s intended meaning. To me, though, the modifier “as a woman” read as irrelevant because she has always been a woman. I didn’t interpret it as meaning “post-transition” or “after publicly identifying myself as a woman.”
I think only someone who is transphobic would presume that the phrase “as a woman” means that she was referring to the time period after she transitioned. (Not that I’m saying you’re transphobic– you’re clearly not– but the use of that “before/after” language is usually restricted to transphobes, and that’s why I assumed that couldn’t be what she meant.)
Maybe Savannah herself can clarify what she intended to say here.
Totally! It’s quite ambiguous and I think could be read a number of different ways.
Regarding the positioning as inherently transphobic, I’d like to offer an alternative perspective on this, (not, though, to say you are wrong – just to offer a different facet to the conversation) I’d like to refer to Ellie Navidson’s blog, (In)visibly Queer, where she wrote an entry (essay? thought?) called “I used to be a boy” that talks about her take on trans-normative narratives and why she talks about a time that she ‘used to be a boy’
http://invisiblyqueer.tumblr.com/post/19772761712/i-used-to-be-a-boy-challenging-trans-normativity
Just food for thought :)
Ellie is an absolute wonder. So luminous.
That particular frame of mind might also have to do with trying to work with the words and frames and things that society gives us. I hear it time and again “woman trapped in a man’s body.” But the reality of it, at least insofar as I’m concerned, is that I’ve always been a girl. And this is a woman’s body, it just happens to have a penis. I like to think I’m right about this, but I can by no means speak for everybody.
There are definitely major limitations within our language in how we’re able to express pre- and post-transition differences without resorting to transphobic or trans-denialist language.
I’ve definitely struggled a little bit with phrasing in that my (trans) partner and I are treated differently and given different degrees of privilege depending on whether we’re presenting/passing as straight or not. So I think (especially after reading her response below) that Savannah’s statement about her lack of privilege “as a woman” is analogous to when I say things like, “We don’t have trouble with harassment as a straight couple, but as a queer couple we’ve run into some problems.”
We’re never actually a straight couple, but how we present affects how we’re treated, so the distinction is important to make. It’s just difficult to make it concisely without it sounding like either a failure to acknowledge privilege or a failure to acknowledge gender identity.
However, I admit that I flinch and grit my teeth whenever I hear cis people say things like “He used to be a lesbian” or “She used to be a man.” Unless that’s how the trans*person specifically refers to his or her own experience, I think that language is pretty much inherently cissexist.
Before I begin, I want to clarify that I am not speaking for Savannah and am instead approaching your comment in a more general sense, because “male socialization” is used as a derail tactic so often against trans women.
“unlike cisgender women, you were not instilled since toddlerhood with the idea that you would never be good at math or engineering.”
Actually, no, you can’t assume that. Not everyone’s upbringing is the same. Gendered messages are all over the place, and trans women who have always seen themselves as female listen to the messages directed at girls. When you don’t identify as a boy, you don’t identify with the messages directed *at* boys. And not all discouragement is gender-based, especially not in the home.
Just because someone is assigned a sex at birth, does not mean they follow along and identify with it. That’s a cisgender conception of how gender identity and socialization works.
As Creatrix Tiara brought up above, it’s a fallacy to assume that even all cis women receive the same messages growing up. There is no universal female experience.
“You were not given Barbies to dress while your brothers were given chemistry sets and microscropes to play with.”
Many trans women, however, are shamed and attacked (physically and sexually) for inborn feminine behavior and interests. We were often denied the toys we actually *wanted* to play with.
I myself had a barren room as a child, because none of my interests were allowed and nothing I was allowed I found interesting, with the only exception being computers. I was unable to play with other children how I wanted and unable to connect with other girls because of how I was perceived and the restrictions placed on me. This resulted in total social isolation and ostracization. I do not consider that a form of privilege.
“Your teachers likely presumed that you would be good at math and science, and you weren’t given weird looks as a kid if you said that you wanted to grow up to be a technician or an astrophysicist.”
These aren’t the goals and desires of every cis woman, nor are they the goals and desires of every trans woman. Also, once again, someone who identifies as female is going to identify with messages directed *toward* females. Which includes all those negative messages about being terrible at math and science.
“I in no way deny that you are a woman. However, to deny that you were raised and steeped in male privilege is to deny that sexism exists.”
To deny that trans people internalize gendered messages differently than cis people assigned the same sex is to deny that cissexism exists.
“You are a feminist, and that means being willing to acknowledge privilege–any kind of privilege– when you have it.”
Exactly. So please recognize your cis privilege in this conversation, and the resulting blind spots when it comes to socialization.
Now to elaborate further: There are some trans women who *do* spend time identifying as male, who *do* identify with the messages directed at boys. However, it is up to THEM to determine how male socialization has affected them. You may disagree with that assessment, but you are not in a place to make that call.
Some trans women transition early in life (as early as 4 years old), some transition later in life. These differences can affect the degree we are affected by male privilege. I would argue that even in the most extreme cases of a trans woman benefiting from male privilege, this comes at a great cost to self-esteem. There is no clear-cut impact here.
Even though many trans women internalize the messages directed at girls growing up, some (but not all) still experience a degree of privilege due to being perceived by others as male. This privilege, however, is conditional and often comes at a great cost to one’s security and identity. Countless trans women have committed suicide because the world refused to perceive them as anything but men. Maybe you see that as a privilege, but I don’t.
Dismissing trans women’s critique of male socialization by saying her view is a result of male privilege is just another way transmisogyny is used to silence trans women’s voices and invalidate our experiences as women. There is a wide range of how male socialization and male privilege can affect a trans woman’s life, from no influence at all (very early transitioners) to quite a great deal (that still comes at great cost).
Bottom line: Don’t generalize about trans women when it comes to “male socialization” or male privilege. You don’t know the details.
I already said it and I’m gonna say it again: You are awesome!
yep
I love this. Yes, being mis gendered and having suicidal ideation is not my idea of male priv either.
I’m a trans women who for roughly 15 years, from around age 12 to around age 27, lived as an (outwardly) gender conforming “male.” And I did experience a lot of male privilege because of this. When I was walking around on the sidewalk or riding the bus, I didn’t have to worry about the sort of harassment and violence that is always a risk for women and for visibly queer folks of all genders. I was able to get good grades in school for quite a while, and I usually talked a lot in class (which was encouraged and valued by my teachers). I’m sure my male appearance played a big role in these academic advantages. I could list a lot of other examples, too.
At the same time, my “male privilege” was complicated in a way it usually is not for most actual men. Though I often had friends who were male and sometimes outwardly appeared to be “one of the guys,” whenever I was around them I was in a constant state of terror. I went to extreme lengths to cover up any thought or feeling or mannerism that I thought might “reveal” who I really was. . .the littlest things. . .I was careful not to blink “too much,” for example, because I thought this was a sign of weakness and femininity (and I actually had been made fun of when I was younger for “blinking too much,” believe it or not!) Every sexist remark my male “friends” would make felt like a stab directly into my heart, but generally I was too scared to challenge them. So basically, I was walking around for more than a decade in a sort of disassociative haze, absolutely terrified of everyone around me, never able to truly relax, and never having a genuine friend (although I was often around other people). I wasn’t able to keep everything completely under wraps, however, and desperately needed an outlet for my true self. . .so when I was alone I would go on the internet and “pretend” to be a girl and chat with people online. But even this didn’t provide me an opportunity for real friends. . .I would compulsively chat online for a week, not sleeping, not eating, skipping school or work, and then in a fit of shame and self-loathing I would delete my female email account and all my contacts and swear I would never indulge such “sick” and “dishonest” behaviors again. . .only to restart months later and have to build a new social network from scratch. I was so ashamed of my life online, so unable to control it, that I didn’t take care of my real life in the most basic way. I got fired from jobs for skipping work to stay home and talk online. . .I never had an intimate sexual relationship because of an inability to genuinely relate to people in real life, and on and on.
In short, though male privilege was offered to me, the offer was extremely horrible and traumatizing. As a result of this constant traumatization, I was not able to take advantage of male privilege in the way most actual men are. It did provide me with certain unambiguous benefits (increased physical safety, for example), but I was not able to use it to translate into the intended result in many other areas (a FEELING of safety, enhanced self-esteem, higher socioeconomic status, and so on). Now that I am openly living as a woman and am generally recognized as such, I am offered considerably less privilege by society. But the nightmare of my upbringing is over and my life is radically better now–I have self-esteem, actual friends, an ability to focus at work, the capability to express myself, the possibility of sexual satisfaction, and more. So I think cis people should be careful with throwing around the assertion that trans woman prior to transition significantly benefited from “male privilege” in some across the board sort of way.
Hi Genevra,
Sorry it took me a while to get back to this important point, I’m glad you raised it. I think fuj already did a good job of reading into my intended meaning, but you’re right that statement could have been worded better and I just wanted to follow-up and try to clarify a bit further… although I will say, please notice the article that I linked in that statement, as it’s very key to my intended meaning.
Indeed, what I meant in that statement was that *since I began transition* having a penis has not gotten me any benefits in academia. In the linked article I detail some of my experiences during a stay in France at an earlier point in my career. It was after I began transition, and I was placed sometimes as a woman, sometimes as a man, and the response I got in that ranged from public ridicule and abuse to workplace harassment. It was pretty bad at one point, enough so that I considered leaving physics… there’s more to be said, but some of it’s still difficult for me to speak about all of it in public.
That having been said, I *did* have access to male privilege growing up, and I do not want to deny that for a second. So while I was sometimes picked on and felt coercively gendered, I was always encouraged when it came to science and other academic pursuits, and there is not question that my history with male privilege has played a role in where I am today.
It’s a complex picture and I don’t want to over-simplify that either way. Some trans women have significant access to male privilege at some point in their lives, and some have very limited access to that. I would be closer to the former category, and I do think it is important to acknowledge that.
btw- sorry for the delayed response to this important question (I’m on Tokyo time these days!)
Savannah, just a short comment to say I thought your response to Ginevra’s question was great – very open and thoughtful. It’s nice to find respectful exchanges like this, especially when so many others have chosen to respond to your original post with incendiary comments.
Hi Savannah-
It didn’t take you long to respond at all– no worries on that. Thank you for clarifying your intended meaning. I’m also a writer and I know how crappy it can be when you end up with your foot in your mouth (err, on your keyboard) because you’ve phrased something awkwardly or in a way that could be misinterpreted, especially if the phrasing could come across as offensive. I appreciate you taking the time to respond and clarify the intended meaning.
Again, I loved the article and I’m glad to see it published here. Thanks for sharing your insights and for explaining your intention behind your statement about privilege.
Savannah. . .I hope what I’m about say doesn’t come off as dismissive of your experience. That’s the last thing I want to do. I just want to question and perhaps challenge some ideas of yours. I think that we trans women have been so deeply brainwashed to think of ourselves as men and as being horrible people for wanting to differentiate ourselves at all from men that it can be hard for us to stand up to this internalized oppressor in our own minds.
I know many trans women (including you) will say that they benefited from male privilege growing up. I just have a hard time imagining how this is possible (not saying it isn’t possible). In my opinion, the erroneous idea that we are male is the crux of our ENTIRE oppression. . .from the violent straight men who murder us to the insurance companies that deny us medical care to the TERFs who hate us and ostracize us to the internalized self-loathing we often feel. I simply don’t see how us being brainwashed to accept this erroneous and hurtful cis-created idea about ourselves (that we were male) and then act in accordance with it (by allowing people to incorrectly gender us as male) could be beneficial to somebody. In my experience, it certainly wasn’t beneficial. It was a living nightmare. And I don’t see why trans women would even transition if it were so advantageous for us to be perceived as male. Surely we aren’t fools for wishing to transition. Yes, we are seeking to be more comfortable with our own bodies. But we are also generally trying to let the REAL US out socially, have that recognized, be able to have deeper relationships with the people around us, and so on. Being invisible to everyone around you, feeling like you are a horrible freak, and all the other things most of us experience prior to transition are hardly privileges. And I don’t think trans women necessarily even benefited economically from living as men. A lot of people will claim this. . .I would like to see someone provide some statistics or evidence sometime to bolster this claim (because it is counter-intuitive to me). I was downwardly economically mobile well prior to transitioning, and the same thing applies to most trans women I know or read about. So perhaps the benefits that you personally received growing up that you believe you received due to male privilege were actually a result of race, class, ability, neurotypicality, or something else? Not saying that this IS the case; I’m just wondering whether you’ve considered that.
Also, to all the transphobic radfem assholes commenting here… STFU. Seriously. All of you. I could rehash everything that every other sane person here has said to you, but please just piss off. Go hang out on [name has been removed]‘s blog or something. I don’t think anyone with half a brain wants you HERE.
Is anybody else just sitting back and refreshing the page to read the new comments?
I don’t feel like I have anything of merit to add to the discussion other than upvoting the non-transmisogynist comments!
Radfem, radscum, troll??? I expressed a dissenting opinion, that I genuinely believe in, in a respectful manner. I am a lesbian. I have worked for civil and human rights throughout my life and career. I disagree with certain aspects of gender ideology because I believe it’s harmful to the rights of women as a class. I really don’t think it’s necessary to call me names.
How hard are you working for civil and human rights if you’re so dead-set on denying rights to a severely underprivileged and oppressed group of women? You did not simply express a dissenting opinion; you expressed an offensive opinion with the intention of hurting, insulting, and degrading other individuals. Don’t want to be called scum? Don’t act like scum.
“Don’t want to be called scum? Don’t act like scum.”
If the shoe fits…. ;)
How can you be an advocate for the marginalized while simultaneously undermining the identities of an entire group of marginalized people? You didn’t voice a dissenting opinion, you voiced an opinion putting down the behaviours of people that don’t effect you. Since you are obviously trans*phobic, you will likely not find yourself at a date with a trans*women and this article wasn’t directed at you.
Even if you worked your whole life for ‘equality’ for yourself, if you slam that door behind you as soon as you get through you are still a jerk
You’ve been trying to discount trans women’s experiences due to their (presumed, or historical) genitalia. You’ve also been denying cis privilege. That’s hardly a respectful manner.
“I have worked for civil and human rights throughout my life and career.”
This is called showing your resume, and has nothing to do with whether your behavior is bigoted or not. You don’t collect activist points and use them to cancel out the things you’ve screwed up. Activism isn’t a videogame achievement that renders any criticism moot. Don’t show your resume. Respond to the criticism at hand.
the thing is, avery, if you think a woman’s physical body is yours to judge and condemn, you don’t belong here. autostraddle isn’t for you. your outdated ideas are worthless to us. and i mean all of us — the queers, the bis, the gay, lesbian, questioning, trans*, intersex, cis, genderqueer, agender, poly, omni, asexual, pansexual, label-free, butch, dyke, femme, boi, andro, ag, stud, grrrl, old, young, every shade, every race, every ability, every background and foreground and literally everything in between — we ALL repudiate you and your kind.
it will never be our job to make you feel comfortable or represented here, because this space is not for you.
Oh my god. I just.. DAYAM! I heard like, some kind of badass background music swelling as Laneia laid that down. Like, BOOM! :)
I think the mic was just dropped.
hot damn. this was one of the best things I have ever read on the entire internet. nice, Laneia!
I think a really common and pervasive feeling many people who go through transition struggle with is a sense that we are alone and that we are isolated. Even when we know logically that isn’t true, it can often feel like it is.
So thank you, not just for your stance, but for being part of what’s happening here. It’s more than just acceptance, it’s supporting the idea that our concerns are not solely something written in a margin. That our concerns aren’t just special trans issues, but come from societal bullshit whose root tries to undermine us all.
It is rare that bit of decently accepted theory actually manages to find it’s way to practice.
That’s why your comment felt important to me. Thanks.
(Though for whatever it’s worth, I wish engaging effectively was less exhausting, time consuming and thankless. I don’t think it’s problematic to acknowledge that people are often engaged in a way that’s less effective than it could be in an ideal world where people had sufficient time, energy and security to engage in conversation over our very legitimacy in a calm, rational, engaging and serene way.)
all I have to say to that comment Laneia: <3
I think I just fell in love a little there.
This was so good that I, alone in my living room, involuntarily and repeatedly snapped.
SO SAY WE ALL
You know what, I agree with you on this one point. I firmly disagree with your positions, and I don’t think that you presented them in a respectful way. However, I also don’t think that name-calling is remotely productive. That said, I understand the impulse to do it – especially when one’s identity is under attack. Still, I think that rather than responding to disrespect with more disrespect, it is better to educate and inform (which is what the majority of people on this comment thread have done). I hope you can ignore the few unproductive comments and learn something from the discussion.
That’s what they do instead of having a civil conversation. They abuse women who question the narrative.
Okay Real Talk. I totally live in a queer/intersectional/liberal bubble and sometimes I forget that a lot of people in our communities still have a lot of learning to do (including me! I have so much learning to do!) and the comments on these articles plus that whole Julie Burchill/Suzanne Moore fiasco have made me realize that we REALLY REALLY need to have these conversations more often, and within our own queer and feminist communities we REALLY REALLY need to hold each other accountable and call each other out for trans*phobia and biological essentialism and similar bullshit, and like that Le Tigre song says “We refuse to be embarrassed by the mistakes and faults of our past and choose to move forward with a political agenda bent on the freedom of all”
So FOUR FOR YOU Autostraddle for being brave and hosting this trans*scribe series.
FOUR FOR YOU for all the beautiful, inspiring, intelligent and brave women and others who contributed to this series
FOUR FOR YOU all the commenters in this community who won’t stand for hate and respond to ignorant bullshit in intelligent and productive (and sometimes fucking hilarious) ways
Keep on keeping on, beautiful humans.
AND NONE FOR RADFEM JERK TROLLS, BYE.
Yes to this whole comment, so fetch.
Just wanted to say this is one of my favorite Autostraddle articles. As a science major I didn’t take many courses in the humanities. Autostraddle is like the online class in queer / gender theory / women’s history / general getting-a-clue-about-these-issues that I never took in college, and I’m grateful for the education from the writers and commenters (commentators?).
Am I the only one who read
1) Not every trans woman has a penis.
2) No general means exist to distinguish trans women from cis women.
The implications of these two points together are that statements such as “I am attracted to cis women but not trans women” simply do not make sense and are rooted in social prejudice.
and interpreted
“you know, it is very possible you have been attracted to a trans woman and have assumed she was cis” ?
Seems fairly simple.
Sure does don’t it. :)
I was actually hoping for some clarification of what the writer meant by “No general means to distinguish between cis and trans women.” Maybe I’m being too analytical but it seems to me that trans women would be those who disagree with being ‘Male assigned at birth.’ So is the intent that a passer-by can’t tell from a general impression of someone’s cis/trans status, or a different meaning?
It means basically what Raisa said.
Thanks Savannah! You’re a badass *and* and great writer too. <3
Yep. Even trans folks who are pretty casual and vocal about letting people know they’re trans can’t possibly hope to let everyone know just because they likes how we look in a bar, on a street, in a club or anywhere else.
I know some friends with some stories about how much people just assume they’re cis even when they thought they told them rather explicitly otherwise. I think one of the more striking was:
Them: “Want to come over and join me in a hot tub?”
Her: “Sure, are you cool with trans women?”
Them: “Bring who you like!”
A lot of people have a lot of assumptions about what trans women look like.
‘A lot of people have a lot of assumptions about what trans women look like.’
—————–
Absolutely. Is akin to stereotypical iconography for what a queer cis woman looks like that is lodged in their brains. On a side note, it always sets me off when someone introduces the backhanded compliment ‘passable’ into a conversation which reeks of privilege and is used as a way to further commodify and exert influence over the bodies (and self worth) of trans women. As if we go through the often traumatic experience of transitioning for the approval of a cis hetero guy and his completely arbitrary criteria of what he deems to be feminine. Your observation just triggered that in my mind. :) *End rant.*
Even though the various segments of the spectrum of women represented here have their own unique challenges we are collectively strengthened via the commonalities we share and the points at which the movements intersect. To see such ecumenical understanding and support is truly heart warming and gives me hope for trans women going forward.
Much love.
I saw this referenced on Facebook and know that I am intruding but after having read this post and all the comments, I want to thank the vast majority of you!
I am a non-op transgender person so I don’t dare call myself a woman nor a lesbian. I’m old too. :-) I read so many of these open-minded, thoughtful comments and I can’t help but thinking what a great world this is becoming! If only I could be 20 something now!
Best to you all! (and sorry for the intrusion!)
Your age and genitals don’t matter. Please don’t let other people’s bigotry stop you from calling yourself a woman or a lesbian. I’m glad that you found the article and comments encouraging and I’m sorry that (at least to your perception) it’s too late for you to transition, but that doesn’t mean you can’t self-identify as a woman.
I am far from a spring chicken. You do you!
You are what you live, are what your feel and how you see things.
You are not intruding at all.
Thank you for your comment Debby, and you are not intruding at all… xo
All I really have to add to this is that this was an article I REALLY needed at this particular time, and that I love my trans girlfriend dearly. That is all.
As a post-op (just wanted to define myself) trans-woman I must say I have appreciated all the comments here is support of my community.
I actually belong to many communities, I am trans, a lesbian and a woman!! I am not one those trans-women who feel the need to have on a dress, makeup and coiffured hair. I mostly wear pants, very little or no makeup and just brush my hair out. My point is that even us trans have many shades of how we present ourselves. But when I am told I am not a woman because of the accident of having been born with a birth defect it makes me sad!! But not for long because in my heart I know who and what I am, A WOMAN!!
I really love this post. And unfortunately, I don’t have any close trans women to talk to so I appreciate these posts a lot. When I think about the trans community, and trans men I know, I often find myself questioning my inherent (or ingrained) preference to a gender binary. And this discussion leads me to see, that for myself and probably other lesbians, THE Penis stands as this symbol of maleness that I’ve chosen to disassociate myself from via my sexuality. When thinking outside a gender binary, I can understand I’d probably enjoy the cis male genitalia sexually speaking, but it’s connotations I and my society have constructed around IT make me uncomfortable. It’s almost a ‘trigger,’ if you will, for negative experiences I’ve had with cis males my entire life. And I’m sad to see this figurative wall within myself–that objectively I probably wouldn’t care if a woman had a penis, but that my inherent association with male genitalia makes me want to run away, so to speak. I’m very picky when it comes to my cis male friendships. A lot of men disappoint me through expressions of chauvinism and general sexual aggressiveness and dominance. As of right now, I haven’t been able to see these cis men’s personalities as separate from their genitalia….I’ve never needed to really TRY and separate genitalia from gender since I have such a significant physical preference to women, and can therefore ignore the issue. And then I’m lead to how much I take for granted my comfortability in my gender. If I weren’t comfortable with my gender identity, I’d have had to confront these issues much more seriously. So I feel like a hypocrite for taking such interest in my sexuality while ignoring the struggles of gender-differing people. It’s hard. It’s scary to question what you worked so hard to establish and figure out (your sexuality) only to realize that maybe that struggle was less about genitalia preference and more just a denial of a hetero-normative ideal. As a lesbian, it’s hard to face that truth. But I need to, and I need to understand and I need to actually TRY.
Amanda
Thanks Amanda for being willing to learn and understand!! That is so hearting for me to read!!
This was a really genuine, open and honest comment. I’m not sure I can say much in response, in part cause a lot of it feels like it must be really personal, but I thank you for having the courage to share your honest feelings with the rest of us <3
I love this replay more than a “Me too!” because you are the good people learning out there Amanda.
Thank you so much. We can try to make the world better.
Thank you for this awesome article!
And to all the commenters throwing it down with their amazing intelligence and wit for all our human siblings!
Love this series so much.
It’s not just genetalia … females have a whole reproductive system that distinguishes them from males. You can call me names for stating that fact, but it doesn’t change the truth. But whatever you want to call me: troll, jerk, radscum, transphobe, whatever, is nothing compared to the shitstorm of oppression that females endure in this world as a result of biology. Not gender, but sex. Sex is not a construct, it is biology. Gender is a construct. It is a hierarchical set of stereotypes that oppress of women. The very concepts of masculinity and femininity are sets of generalizations that are false and harmful. If you are offended by my opinion, that’s a shame. But I’m not a “troll.” I am a lesbian who happens to disagree with the prevailing gender ideology of this group, but I do have many other interests that are aligned here.
Avery my understanding of being female was when I was 3 or 4 years old. So no concepts of masculinity and femininity had been impressed on me as yet!! I was born this way I did not decide one day that I was female!! I can accept your preference as to who you date that is your prerogative!! But I do not accept your judgement of me, when you do not even know me or who I am!!
And trans women don’t endure a shitstorm of oppression on a daily basis simply because of their mere existence…
WAIT
Androgen insensitivity syndrome is a condition where the bodies of people with XY chromosomes don’t respond to the male hormones produced by their testes. Externally they look exactly like cisgendered women, but they don’t have any internal female reproductive organs, and they have internal testes. Look at the women on this Wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androgen_Insensitivity_Syndrome#Partial_AIS
I’m sure they’d be thrilled to learn that they’re not female.
Aarrgh, this is the right link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androgen_insensitivity_syndrome
What’s a “radscum”?
Really because my aunt had a hysterectomy because of her ovarian cancer so I guess she’s not a woman anymore???
Yup, sounds like it. You might want to get her a card that says: “Get well soon & congrats on your new male privilege”.
i’m a little bit in love with this comment.
Yes, because every time a woman is ever discriminated against, they are first confirmed to have a womb. That is absolutely ridiculous. Misogyny doesn’t get magnetically attracted to ovaries. When women get catcalled on the street, the don’t get chromosomal tests first. When women get a lower wage, it isn’t compared with their birth certificate to first make sure they’re receiving the proper discrimination. Trans women experience misogyny. Besides, exactly how are you fighting sexism by further entrenching that men and women are worlds apart with biology that dictates their spot in life and men and women are just different fundamentally and completely? How is that revolutionary? How is that not the same tired old line for oppressing women? That women’s wombs dictate their identities.
be still my heart!
You rock Dan Dan!!
Meredith! Heart.
actually, biological sex is made up of several physical characteristics and the majority of people don’t fulfill every single one for their assigned sex, so there’s that which is y’know, scientific fact. Also I hope you die in a fire.
“I hope you die in a fire” = idiot
I actually don’t care what side of the argument you are on or how horrible the thing the radfem said was.
Avery, I agree with you!
A lesbian, I will add, who doesn’t appreciate being told that I am a bigot for not wanting to date people who have penises. That kind of lesbian. (who in this group is subject to all manner of name calling and ridicule, apparently)
No one is telling you to date someone with a penis. Nope.
People are calling you a bigot for the actions of attempting to define and marginalize a group of women, yes women, by a specific biological attribute.
People, specifically other Lesbians, are irritated because you are defining Lesbian as Bio-essentialist, and Trans* folks with the same non-supported medical concepts.
It is clear that this view is not shared here in the majority, but I never would wish to have a place where everyone is all happy flowers and kittens (actually that would kinda rock, unless you’re allergic to cats) to the exclusion of dissenting views.
However, positioning yourself as a worker for social change, and a defender of women while attacking a type of women defined by a specific history or background is not going to fly.
If you cannot and will not accept a trans* women as a woman, even when transition occurs at incredibly young ages, or at later date, then there is little we can really discuss. Which is disappointing.
Denying the self identification of female is as egregious as someone telling you you’re not a lesbian, or that you just think you are because (insert tired ass hetero horrible sayings here-we all know them)etc.
I am not saying you are the same as a homophobe, but the drives may be similar. Homophobes believe they know better. I believe you have a huge history of work and struggle and experience that drives you to these concepts and that perhaps trans* people represent the worst kind of late 60’s Patriarchal secret agents, but hopefully we can find something to discuss in the light of sharing and not in hate.
Girl, you are amazing!
(And I never wanted to create an account more than today, so I just can +1 an everything you say.)
*puts on secret patriarchal agent decoder ring*
Ooo! I just got mine! Lets see what my secret message is…
E.A..T..
M..O.R..E
P..U..S.S.. oh. Oh my. Yes. I can do that.
I think I love you.
I think we might be in the same boat.
That boat is going to capsize soon with all of us.
This comment has been flagged for being in violation of Autostraddle’s Comment Policy
This is such a fabulous article! I think this, next to “how to own it” is my new favorite Autostraddle series.
P.S. I shit on trans-misogynistic rad scum forever. (I would say fuck them but fucking is a fun thing and I don’t wanna be sex negative, and that seems kinda like a rape culture thing, but shit smells so there)
:( it didn’t post.
this was the image i was trying to post: http://i.imgur.com/4dqzIJr.jpg
I’m all for empowering trans women and I know that they are every bit as ‘woman’ as FAM (female assigned at birth) women are, but I identify as a lesbian. I’ve been raped by men in the past, and I seriously could not ever be turned on by or sleep with someone who has a penis. I don’t think it’s transphobic not to be attracted to a certain form of genitalia – it’s not really something that can be helped. I didn’t wake up one morning and decide “hm I think I’ll limit my attractions by not liking penis”. That’s just the way I am. No matter how beautiful and perfect a trans woman is, if she still has a penis I just couldn’t go there. I really wish this wasn’t the case (it would be wonderful if genitalia just didn’t factor into my sexual attractions at all) but unfortunately human attraction is just not that simple.
Did you mean FAB?
M I thank you for being up front with your feelings! I can understand them, but I think the point here and was made in the article we are not asking you to date pre/nom-op tran-women just accept them as women!!
I think you might have missed the point. There is absolutely nothing wrong with personally not wanting to have sex with someone who has a penis. There are certain traits and features in people that I find unattractive. Although I’m pansexual, I’ve got a big long list of traits in people who I simply can’t and won’t have sex with. That’s not because I’m a bigot; it’s because everyone has their own sexual preferences, and we’re all entitled to making choices about who we will and will not sleep with.
Transwomen don’t fall into the “I’m not having sex with that person” category for me, but if they do for you, that’s okay. No one in their right mind is judging you for that. As long as you accept transwomen as women, no rational person could consider you to be a bad person for not personally wanting to date or sleep with them.
There is nothing wrong with that at all M. Seriously. The fact is you are triggered by that type of genitalia, and that’s something I think can be respected. You aren’t stating anything as to the inclusion or ideas of being female, but a preference based on trauma and or personal need. Its not a generalization. Its a preference. Big difference between saying “I am not fond of the penis.” and “Anyone with a penis is male.”
In the most broad sense its the same as saying you wouldn’t date a woman with one arm due to some horrible event in your past. If you KNOW that it is a reaction to a generalization but you cannot work through it, or even wish to for painful reasons, that’s your path to take and something I am sure would cause stress and be seen as something to work on. It can be attacked as not the most enlightened, but that’s not fair to your lived experience. As long as someone doesn’t assume that ANY woman with one arm (or having a penis) is the same way, your actions would not be bigoted.
Would they be optimal and fair and all rainbows and happy? No, but that’s not realistic. There is a massive difference between “I am not comfortable with dating you because of a specific issue.” and “You are a part of a group I am defining, so go away.” Its about point of identification.
To many people on this thread are missing the core of this, it is not the insistence that people must like the penis, but that the penis (or the vagina) is not the sole arbiter of woman or man.
*shrugs* Don’t date ’em, then. I’m a trans woman who’s attracted to women who was raped by a woman, but I didn’t let that stop me. I just had to work through a couple few many things.
“I am attracted to cis women but not trans women”
According to this article, if I am a lesbian who is only attracted to cis women as dating/romance/sexing partners, I am a trans-mysoginist. Does it also mean I am a misandrist because I exclude men from my dating/romance/sexing activities? No. No it does not.
I really enjoyed this article but I don’t appreciate the implication of that I am any “-ist” just because I can say out loud my personal desires in terms of who I want to date/have sex with and who I do not.
I am curious, if you were dating a woman, and found her attractive and interesting and you got along wonderfully for sometimes, but then found that she had a penis, would this feel like a betrayal to you?
I am honestly and openly curious. If this was triggering to you then I understand that it is the sole bit of flesh that is upsetting, or is it the idea that this felt like the woman you were speaking to and attracted to was somehow being disingenuous?
I identify with what Jane is saying, so I’ll offer a response myself: Yes, I would feel betrayed. I want nothing to do with penises. And I’m not interested in dating someone whose genitals I can’t touch (which has nothing to do with trans*, more with libido and type of sexual desire). (I want to be able to fuck *you*, in addition to you fucking me). If I’m in a relationship, I want to be having sex. And I’m pretty clear about what I’m interested in to potential partners.
So it’s kind of a combination of both. I would feel like she had withheld some truth from me. And I would feel like I had developed some attachment to someone I couldn’t have a relationship with. I would feel the same way if I was dating someone who was hiding that she was asexual.
I’m sorry then, but because of PSTD and disability, my genitals can’t be touched either, even though I am a cis woman, would you deny someone like me a relationship because of my history and disability?
All I’m talking about is if I personally would want to date a woman whose genitals I couldn’t touch. And no, I wouldn’t want to be in a relationship with you. It sounds really harsh, but I wouldn’t be interested. I certainly want you to be happy in a relationship with someone else.
And I know I sound like an asshole, but that’s just my honest truth.
I completely agree with you, I would like to think that people would feel more “disappointed” than “betrayed” because one seems more about learning an annoying thing and the other assuming deception. And the whole deception thing is at the core of a LOT of transphobic ideals and responses. Although I am NOT saying you are implying that. Nope!
But you’re right in that there is the problem with ‘passing’ (UGH I hate this concept)that if you are perceived as a vagina bearer and you don’t have one, and you reach a point in a relationship that it may come up, its a good idea to try and have a calm and decent discussion about it. Much like any sexual preference or action.
So many things about sex are so inherently private and personal that it always seems irresponsible to wait until Zero-Hero to see if things work out. If I was to find myself with someone who said “Oh.. you have that umm.. I can’t.” Well, ok. This is no different than getting to the same point and someone saying “Oh, I umm.. am not in the mood now.” I don’t have to be thrilled, but consent is consent. Period. Will it be a relationship that can continue? Maybe, but as you said (and I agree) sex is important, and fun, and something that is cooperative.
I mean, it’s kinda like a entire team of athletes showing up on the field and hoping to hell they are all there for the same kind of game without talking first. When the three guys on Hockey skates meet the two marathon running gals and that other person is carrying a football..its going to be annoying because everyone thought they were on the same playing field. (OY! That is one beat up analogy)
But the point is, while they don’t play the same game, they are all still athletes.
Woah, your metaphor is a little crazy, but I like it.
And I think you’re right. I would be majorly, majorly disappointed, not betrayed.
It’s hard to think about dating without being 100% explicit about your sexual desires beforehand. (I’m in a relationship now.) Because like, should I have to try dating again, I would want to exchange fully completed yes/no/maybe checklists on the first date, alone with a proposed rate of sex. Why not find out early on if you’re fundamentally incompatible?
(To fit it into your metaphor, why not just advertise for a specific sport at a particular time, with a certain set of rules? Feels easier.)
Also, I’m not 100% serious about the yes/no/maybes, but I’m not 100% kidding either.
My wife knows folks that have those checklists literally. It’s something that is a valid strategy and if people are cool with it, I think it would sure cut down on a lot of stress and confusion. :)
To expand further on what Shelby was saying, would you feel betrayed if you were attracted to someone and then found that they were post-op trans? If it’s just that you aren’t attracted to penises, I can understand that-neither am I! However, if you are categorically excluding trans women even in cases where you would be attracted to them if they were cis, where the simple fact that they are trans and that fact alone (not broader shoulders, or personality differences, or whatever else may exist in the vast topography of human experience), then that is the part that sounds a lot like bigotry. I’m not saying it necessarily is, just that it walks like a duck and sounds like a duck.
I did not say that you are obligated to date trans women. If you don’t want to date trans women you have every right to that and you every right to state that up front with your partners to make sure they know that you aren’t comfortable with trans women in a romantic context.
What I said was that no general means exist to categorically separate cis women from trans women on the whole. So it’s very possible that you have been attracted to a trans woman at some point, just without realizing it. Obviously you don’t have any obligation to actually date that person, but I have I also have a right to acknowledge the reality that trans women and cis women are all just women.
there are some interesting (and expected) attacks going on here. i would never deny a trans* woman her identity as a woman, or a lesbian for that matter. that being said, personally, i don’t think i would date a trans woman, directly because of her genitalia. i like women, yes. but i also like vagina. like the actual vagina. if a trans man had a vagina, would i date him? no, because i like women. and vaginas. therefore i am attracted to women who have vaginas. this is what i like! this is what a lot of lesbians like. some lesbians just like women. and other people like other things. can we just respect all of this?
What about trans* women with vaginas?
Shh… you’re revealing their true motives.
a trans woman with a vagina? is a woman with a vagina. what wasn’t clear about my post?
@amy: wow, what a shitty thing to say. cool.
“some lesbians just like women. and other people like other things. can we just respect all of this?”
Implication: women without vaginas aren’t women.
to quote you: “that being said, personally, i don’t think i would date a trans woman, directly because of her genitalia.” then said “i am attracted to women who have vaginas.” Thats what was unclear about your post. Or actually you made it very clear what kind of assumptions you were making about what kind of genitalia trans women have. Thus Amy’s response about revealing your true motives.
You said you wouldn’t date trans women because you like vaginas. This implied that trans women don’t ever have vaginas. Plenty of trans women have vaginas, so your post made no sense.
Hi Amy, let’s try not to question everyone’s motives here. Personally, I think Janest’s original statement was perfectly fine.
@janesth – funny, we posted the same idea/premise right after each other and have the same name too! For the record to everyone else reading, we are two different people!
Well, in the original article, Savannah specifically said that nobody has to date anyone they don’t want to. Those people in the comments who say that refusing to date someone with a penis is transmisogyny are off base. As has been shown above, there are plenty of valid reasons, including history and personal preference, not to want to be in a romantic encounter with someone who is bepenised. However! Saying that penis=man and that someone who has a penis isn’t and cannot be a woman is wrong. It sounds like you agree that that’s wrong so I don’t think there’s any issue. There are people on both sides who are going too far, however.
If a subset of entitled, penis wielding individuals would stop proselytizing that women who are not attracted to said penises are bigots, we might be able to get along a little better. A straight man who accepts a gay male friend for who he is gets called a hero, and when he draws the line at sucking his gay friend’s cock, no one calls him homophobic. It’s expected that he isn’t attracted to people with penises. He’s a man and so nobody questions him. If you think you are a woman, fine, feel free, but it is twisted and megalomaniacal to keep your cock and expect lesbians to prove you’re a woman by suddenly finding your cock – a male vestige of ever there was one – irresistible. Sorry, but no. I’m so sad for the women who are going along with this to keep the peace. They’re being oppressed.
http://dayindisguise.tumblr.com/post/44643127327/sociology-in-a-nutshell
HELP I’M BEING OPPRESSED
NO ONE IS SAYING THAT! I hate when people comment on things that they clearly haven’t read carefully. Here are two direct quotes from the article:
1. “First of all, you should never feel pressured to do anything you don’t want to do or that you’re even unsure about. If you aren’t comfortable or you just aren’t into it, say no.”
2. “Now, I want to emphasize here again that no one is obligated to touch a woman’s penis if they aren’t into that” (she goes on to note that not all trans women have penises).
If you take issue with a point the Savannah made, that’s fine – everyone’s entitled to there opinions. But don’t put words in her mouth.
1) The man with the gay friend who wouldn’t suck his cock, isn’t saying his gay friend isn’t a guy.
2) No one is saying you have to be attracted to the penis. I’m not actually. Saying that I mean. Or attracted to penis either. I feel like this is something I will be repeating through this thread. Nope. No one has to like penis. No. Nope.
3)”If you think you’re a woman…” Nice, that’s a subtle bit of the ole passive-aggressive non-committal you have going there. THIS is what the discussion is about. Penis = Not female is the issue.
Because hey, if you’re going to spring for the thousands upon thousands of dollars for poor or low SES folks to be able to qualify for your Finance-For-Femme qualifications as female, I will be sure to let them know. Until then, realize that many woman who happen to have penises, can neither have the surgery or every be privileged enough to manage it.
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
i love all kinds of cocks on all kinds of dykes, what does that make me?
i think the only correct answer here is awesommmmmmme
Congratulations! You have won “Best comment of the year” award, and your comment has been entered into the running for “Best Comment of the Decade”!
Savannah rocked it!
also who ever wrote:
“i love all kinds of cocks on all kinds of dykes, what does that make me?
i think the only correct answer here is awesommmmmmme”
also the folks putting themselves out their even when this thread is overly trolled.
not gonna argue with that one for even a moment!! lol
Uh, who the fuck is calling mr straight man accepting a gay friend a ‘hero’?
Yeah, Wyeth Bailey, you just totally misinterpreted the entire article with this comment.
This.
It was mentioned several times here and elsewhere that it’s ok for a cis lesbian to not want to be sexually intimate with someone who has a penis, as long as her reason isn’t because she thinks the person isn’t “really” a woman. But I also notice that one of the most common ‘tips’ cis women get on how to not be cissexist is to not ask a trans woman about her genitalia. It makes me wonder what lesbians with an aversion to penises, possibly as a result of severe trauma, should do when they find themselves attracted to a woman they discover is trans*. How can it be ok for them to avoid penises but not ok for them to ask if a woman they may be sexually interested in has one?
That’s a damn good question. Seriously.
The whole “disclose or not” thing is constantly being talked about and considered by Trans* folks for many of those reasons.
There has to be a way to find respect for the personal past and possibilities of negative reactions while maintaining a semblance of respect for Trans* woman as well. Balancing these two things without it being done at the cost of anyone else begins to appear near impossible without very open dialog or understanding.
“one of the most common ‘tips’ cis women get on how to not be cissexist is to not ask a trans woman about her genitalia”
Upon first meeting her. While she is a casual acquaintance. If she’s just a friend. In a non-sexual situation. These are inappropriate times to ask ANYONE about their genitalia. Context is key.
If you’re about to sleep with someone, and you have a serious trigger re: penises? It’s totally ok to bring that up. It’s entirely likely, before you reach that point, you will have already brought it up in some capacity. You can even address it without asking someone about their junk. “I have a serious trigger with penises… will that be a problem?” “Because of my past, I am triggered by penises. Nothing personal, but it’s a deal-breaker for me.”
However, if you’re using an aversion to penis as an excuse to avoid being around trans women entirely, regardless of whether you’re dating them or not? And/or if you use it to categorically exclude *all* trans women regardless of what genitalia they have? Then your motives are not sincere, and you should examine whether this is really about triggers or not.
Hi Amy, I am interested by the language you have chosen about being ‘triggered’ by penises. My understanding of a trigger is that it is something which may cause a strong and distressing emotional response, especially where that is linked to past trauma. The words you have used about a person saying they were triggered by penises because of their past.
However, this is not how I would generally understand people who do not wish to be sexual with someone with a penis. Being sexually uninterested in penises as part of one’s sexual orientation would seem to me to be quite different from being ‘triggered’ by them. So I am just curious about why you are using this language about triggering?
I myself am quite fond of penises, on whomever they come (sorry), but the things I find triggering are quite different from things I am just not turned on by. I find a partner touching my neck to be triggering, because someone once tried to strangle me. In contrast, I’m not interested in certain sex acts with a partner, not because they trigger memories a trauma response but because I’m just… not.
The last sentence of the first paragraph is meant to read “The words you have used about a person saying they were triggered by penises because of their past would seem to reflect this understanding”.
Hi Autostraddle powers that be, I am just wondering if someone could edit my comment to delete what I put in about a specific act of violence that triggers me. I re-read it and realised that while I may have come to accept that experience, others may find it triggering and I don’t wish that for them. Thanks, and sorry.
“If you’re about to sleep with someone, and you have a serious trigger re: penises? It’s totally ok to bring that up. It’s entirely likely, before you reach that point, you will have already brought it up in some capacity. You can even address it without asking someone about their junk. “I have a serious trigger with penises… will that be a problem?” “Because of my past, I am triggered by penises. Nothing personal, but it’s a deal-breaker for me.”
If you ‘pass’ so well then why on earth would I think to bring that up. Let’s be honest, no lesbian is going to sit down and have a conversation about not being okay with penises unless they suspect the person they’re with might have one. In that situation you would KNOW you had one and you would know the other person DIDN’T KNOW you had one – so it’s your responsibility to tell her and then see her response. Kind of seems like you’re acting oblivious. I understand that rejection doesn’t feel great but it doesn’t feel great for anyone, if you don’t tell that person that you have a penis until you’re in a sexual situation then I think you’re in the wrong.
“in the wrong”… what exactly does that mean? Morally culpable?
Many trans women have been attacked, raped or murdered and their attackers have gotten off with reduced jail sentences (or gotten off completely) using a variation of the argument that you are using right now.
In fact, in some cases it has turned out that the attacker probably knew she was trans all along, decided to kill her after he had gotten what he wanted out of her, then pretended he didn’t know in court as a legal defense.
Of course, that is largely cis men that are culpable for such attacks, but I am extremely uncomfortable with this idea that people are obligated to know something about someone’s body type at whatever point. Having a penis and not telling someone about it isn’t a crime (nor should it be). Even when making out or intimate contact is involved, if you realize someone has a body that you aren’t comfortable you are free to exit the encounter, but they haven’t morally wronged you by not telling about your genitalia.
I generally *do* tell my partners about this kind of thing in advance, just for the record, but nevertheless I’m not going to buy into any aspect of these types of victim-blaming arguments. No way.
“wronged you by not telling you about *their* genitalia.” is obviously what I meant!
I’m not victim blaming, not once did I say anyone deserved to be hurt because of it and not once did I say someone should react violently when they find out. I mean you’re in the wrong as in yes, you should’ve told that person that information. You’re possibly KNOWINGLY putting them into a situation they aren’t comfortable with. If you respected them and their comfort zones then you would’ve told them.
Surely you realize that something is a little wrong if you get into a sexual situation and you haven’t told that person that you don’t have the body that they presume you have – otherwise you wouldn’t tell your own partners beforehand!
I didn’t accuse you of *explicitly* endorsing victim-blaming, I think clearly what I meant was implicitly endorsing it.
There are plenty of situations that trans women get into where they actually have basically no chance or no moment in which they could possibly relate that information and be safe. There have been times when men sexually assaulted trans women, then discovered she had a penis, took that as an act of ‘deception’ (despite the fact that she explicitly refused his advances in the first place) then attacked her on that basis.
I’m sorry but the picture is just more complex and nuanced than the one you are imagining. Yes, I agree that in most ordinary circumstances it is a better course of action to have that discussion beforehand. As I stated above that is my own approach. That having been said, given the vulnerabilities that trans women face to sexualized violence and the particular victim-blaming narratives that surround that, trying to paint a simplified picture of these dynamics as the basic truth of “HOW IT SHOULD ALWAYS GO DOWN” in big capital letters is extremely harmful and trans-misogynistic in the larger picture of things.
Sorry, again while I agree with you on the better course of things when possible, I’m not in any scenario going to pretend that things are always that simple. They aren’t.
I’m not endorsing violence towards trans people at all. I myself am not all that comfortable with male bodies, I do not want to be in a sexual situation with anyone who has one. Yes I understand that trans people can not always be sure that they can disclose their sex status safely (although I would like to point out that these attacks very often come from cis men, not from lesbians) but I still think when it can be disclosed, it should be disclosed. I can say that it’s wrong when someone does not tell the other person they’re trans AND not support people using violence if they find out the person they’re with is trans.
Sure Amy, you can hold both positions at once but here’s the thing: the scenario you are talking about that you seem so concerned about (a trans woman not disclosing that she has a penis to a cis woman before engaging in sexual relations) is actually pretty damn rare. It doesn’t happen all that often to start with so I just don’t get why you are so concerned about it.
On the other hand, violence against trans women and victim-blaming narratives are very common. It’s a bit like the endless tangled narratives around rape: so much concern is raised over false rape allegations that it tends to cast a cloud of doubt over very real victims of rape when the come forward to tell their stories.
Given how rarely the issue of challenging violence against trans women is discussed in society at large, are you really so comfortable making this unlikely “she didn’t tell me about her penis!!” scenario the front-and-center issue?
And finally it’s almost always trans *women* who are vulnerable to this type of violence, not “trans people.”
“It doesn’t happen all that often to start with so I just don’t get why you are so concerned about it.”
Similarly, if it doesn’t happen all that often why have you (and others) defended it so much? (To be fair, I didn’t actually think it did happen all that often which is why I was surprised to see people defending it to start off with)
I don’t really understand why you’ve changed this into a discussion about violence against trans people (or trans women as you say) when I didn’t actually say anything about violence. Of course violently attacking someone because they didn’t tell you about their genitals isn’t ok, but I didn’t say it was.
And if you can make the point that most of the violence is aimed at trans women, i’ll again make the point that most of the violence comes from cis men – not other women.
The reason this became a conversation about violence against trans women is because with your words you stepped directly into that (pre-existing and often vastly misunderstood) conversation without realizing it.
First of all, yes, the vast majority of that violence comes from cis men, of course that’s true. But think about this: when a woman (cis, trans, whoever) repeats the common victim blaming narratives about rape (e.g. imagine a woman responding, “Oh, well what was she wearing?”), doesn’t that just help to excuse it when men say the same things?
By a similar token, when you as a cis woman are repeating talking points that are commonly used to justify male violence against trans women, you are chipping in on the validity of those arguments here in the public domain.
And again, I will emphasize, this conversation probably has no impact on you in any case. Think about it, this scenario that a non-op trans woman meets a cis woman at a club or whatever, then goes home with her and intentionally never mentions her genital configuration, have you ever actually heard of that happening? I never have, and I would be surprised if your answer to that were ‘yes.’
(There are possibilities like a trans woman could assume that someone else realizes they are trans, when in fact they didn’t, but okay you know I still don’t think that’s the end of the world or anything).
I have however seen a couple times when a trans woman has deliberately kept something back with a cis man btw… I think it’s still quite uncommon, but slightly more likely for some reasons that are a bit immaterial to this conversation. Maybe it’s not super-smart to do that in a trans-misogynistic society, but she doesn’t deserve or violence or to be called a ‘rapist’ because of it (which has happened).
And then like I said, there are instances where a dude knew all along, and then pretends not to know for the sake of getting off for anti-woman violence both in court and in the popular opinion.
So my point here is that when you talk about this scenario, even if you are a cis woman you’re not actually speaking about something that generally happens between cis women and trans women. Knowingly or not, you’re stepping your foot into a conversation about male violence against trans women. And yes, in that context I’m going to ask you to please speak responsibly and refrain from making statements that amount to victim-blaming against trans women in real world circumstances.
I didn’t accuse you of *explicitly* endorsing victim-blaming, I think clearly what I meant was implicitly endorsing it.
There are plenty of situations that trans women get into where they actually have basically no chance or no moment in which they could possibly relate that information and be safe. There have been times when men sexually assaulted trans women, then discovered she had a penis, took that as an act of ‘deception’ (despite the fact that she explicitly refused his advances in the first place) then attacked her on that basis.
I’m sorry but the picture is just more complex and nuanced than the one you are imagining. Yes, I agree that in most ordinary circumstances it is a better course of action to have that discussion beforehand. As I stated above that is my own approach. That having been said, given the vulnerabilities that trans women face to sexualized violence and the particular victim-blaming narratives that surround that, trying to paint a simplified picture of these dynamics as the basic truth of “HOW IT SHOULD ALWAYS GO DOWN” in big capital letters is extremely harmful and trans-misogynistic in the larger picture of things.
Sorry, again while I agree with you on the better course of things when possible, I’m not in any scenario going to pretend that things are always that simple. They aren’t.
Maybe you shouldn’t assume that people you hook up with are cis just because they don’t look obviously trans?
“People are obligated to inform me if they have an inobvious medical condition I find triggering,” seems to be your argument.
Unrelated, but it feels a little uncomfortable to see someone else posting with the same handle as me! :P Funny how internet handles can feel like an identity.
Being honest about your feelings doesn’t mean you have to quiz her on her body! You should totally tell potential partners about discomforts you may have and give people heads up about issues you might face! Open the conversation with *your* thoughts and *your* feelings about *your* preferences and how *you* navigate sex and give her the information she needs so she can help! Maybe she just lets you know she doesn’t have a penis and that makes a lot of things easier, maybe it starts a large conversation about what your comfort level with it all means for you two, or maybe that’s just where you two decide that it’s not a great match and go from there.
Communication is great and the best way to communicate is for each person to talk about the part they actually know: their own feelings and issues. All of that can take place without you asking someone about their genitals.
Exactly. I believe that two women can be open with each other and are capable of working out their sexual boundaries together in a way that is open and honest. People can be up-front about their deal-breakers and where they are coming from, and that needs to be respected by all parties all times. And yes, we can work these things out amongst ourselves in individual situations.
Communication is the key.
This IS a really good and really important question. As a cis woman with a trans partner (who has dated other trans people in the past) I can say that this isn’t generally usually as big of a deal as you might expect. Asking someone you just met what her genitals look like is clearly rude and offensive, but, in my experience, every healthy sexual encounter includes a beforehand discussion. Stuff like, “When were you last tested for STDs?” and “Are you seeing anyone else?” and “Are there any triggers or strong preferences that I need to know about before we have sex?” and “Do we need to use a dental dam or some other kind of protection?”
In the context of talking to a trans woman who you are seriously considering sleeping with (and who is seriously considering sleeping with you, of course), questions like “Have you had SRS?” and (if applicable) “Are you comfortable using your penis during sex?” and “Have you been on HRT and are you still fertile?” are completely acceptable questions, and I personally don’t think that most trans women would be offended by you asking.
But then again, I’m the kind of person who has a sit-down talk with anyone I sleep with, and I know that’s not something everyone does because it feels awkward to a lot of people. I think these kinds of beforehand discussions, regardless of the person’s orientation, are healthy for everyone.
The focus on one body part – the penis – is transphobia disguised as ‘preference’, nothing else. ANYTHING can be a trigger or in general a turn off for a person. It’s also TOTALLY possible to have a sexual relationship with a person who has a penis, while communicating boundaries, turn ons, turn offs, triggers, etc., and this can include deciding not to have sexual touching involving that part (or their feet, or hands, or tongue, or certain words, or certain places, or a specific position, a facial expression, a sound, …you get it). The same goes for all of our million body and mind parts. The thinking that a body part in and of itself is triggering is problematic, when this argument ONLY ever applies to trans women.
I am not writing this to disregard the narratives of survivors, but instead widen the conversation around sexual assault and triggers, and how these factors seems to surface in conversations around trans women’s bodies. Like the author wrote, there is no way to distinguish who is or isn’t trans, and if we strive for a standard of communication and consent in all of our sexual relationships it’s totally possible to work with what we all got!
Trans women as a whole population are not responsible for rape culture, and in fact experience higher rates of sexual violence in general (from the stats I’ve read). We need to consider how appealing to arguments that “trans bodies trigger me” uphold transmisogny and wrongly demonize women in our communities.
I’m a trans woman and a survivor of childhood sexual abuse, which happened at the hands of cis men and cis women. I’m perfectly capable of navigating my triggers while dating without using them to invalidate someone else’s lived experience or identity. It’s not that hard.
The way these anti-trans attacks are often phrase, the implication is that trans women are never raped and have no inkling about rape culture or violence towards women. This shows a fundamental understanding of trans women and what we experience. As you said, yes, trans women are even more prone to sexual assault and rape, and have fewer support resources available to us. We are no stranger to triggers or sexual assault.
The focus on penises by anti-trans types uses the language of triggers, but tends to come down to one thing: They (falsely) symbolize the penis as the very incarnation of patriarchy, and then use this association to attack trans women.
If you’re triggered by penises, you’re triggered by penises. That is no excuse to treat trans women like crap. Guess what? We don’t all have penises. And if you’re upset by penises? Those of us that have them don’t *want* to date you.
Because of my history, I’m often triggered by cis women who look like my abusers. I don’t ask those women to leave women’s spaces because of it. I navigate my triggers as needed, take responsibility for managing them myself, and communicate my needs to others when appropriate. I *don’t* use my triggers to demonize other people or exclude them from their own communities.
Haha, dyslexia strikes again.
* are often phraseD
* fundamental MISunderstanding
I fully believe that trans* women are women. Plain and simple. That said, it is not the job of ANY woman to have sex with someone they don’t want to have sex with or to have sex that they are not comfortable having. You don’t have a right to judge their reasons, to tell them they should create all kinds of boundaries, to have conversations they may not want to have, and then call them transphobic if they don’t bend over backward to have sex with someone who clearly doesn’t make them feel comfortable sexually. If a penis in bed with them triggers their sexual assault, it’s not their job to work through it so that they can have sex with someone they don’t feel comfortable having sex with so that they won’t be judged as transphobic. That’s absolutely horrifying logic.
In fact, it’s even okay if for people who haven’t been sexually assaulted to just exclusively be into sex with those who have vaginas, because all women (trans* and cis) should only have sex with those they are fully turned on by and enthusiastically into having sex with. Don’t women have enough people trying to pressure us into sexual acts?
“For the record I would have a relationship with a penis possessor as long as I never had to touch or see said penis in a sexual context.”
And there are a lot of pre op/non op women (like myself) who could ‘prolly be quite happy with that, as there are a lot of us who (for obvious reasons) don’t/can’t deal with our junk in sexual (or any other) situations. I don’t know about most trans* women, but for me and my girl engaging in any way with our genitals as they exist right now would be a huge emotional struggle. It’s just not worth it to me, that’s why I’ve been so stone for much of my life.
p.s. Thanks for the goodness, being seen by a butch always makes me melt a bit.
“The thinking that a body part in and of itself is triggering is problematic, when this argument ONLY ever applies to trans women.”
What. in. the. fuck? I can’t even continue reading after this total bullshit of a line…an absolute insult to all rape survivors as well as just totally wrong (“ONLY applies to trans woman? *rolls eyes*.) Shameful.
I hate that this has become such a problem with “cis”-women. (I put that in quotation marks because I don’t normally use the terms trans/cis. We’re just women for goodness sake.) What’s even more frustrating is that when I’m in a long-term, very serious relationship with my girlfriend, and people question my sexuality along with her gender identity, and I end up fighting two battles. YES I’m a lesbian, YES she’s a woman. She doesn’t wear make-up/heels/skirts as she would like, or as people might expect (frequently, but does when in a safe environment), and suddenly people correct my pronoun usage. THAT’S sexist in my opinion. So, another tip might be simply because a woman isn’t wearing clothes that allow her to “pass” (a term I hate) doesn’t take away from her being a woman.
Also, being genuinely interested in a woman and then realizing she hasn’t fully transitioned and then loosing interest because you’re solely focused on someone’s genitals is not only shallow, but cruel. It’s not as if transwomen asked to have it, so why you does that determine your willingness to date them? I’m baffled by women that separate cis/transwomen like their two entirely different genders. (Genders, no sexes, there’s a difference)
“The focus on one body part – the penis – is transphobia disguised as ‘preference’, nothing else. ANYTHING can be a trigger or in general a turn off for a person. It’s also TOTALLY possible to have a sexual relationship with a person who has a penis, while communicating boundaries, turn ons, turn offs, triggers, etc., and this can include deciding not to have sexual touching involving that part (or their feet, or hands, or tongue, or certain words, or certain places, or a specific position, a facial expression, a sound, …you get it). The same goes for all of our million body and mind parts. The thinking that a body part in and of itself is triggering is problematic, when this argument ONLY ever applies to trans women.”
Oh boy. There is so much wrong with this. Also, genitals are different than our other “million body parts”.
Great to know that lesbians can have sexual relationships with men as long as they have boundaries!
This whole thing is ludicrous.
No one is talking about men.
If you are, then you are missing kinda the basic point here. Which is what keeps going on over and over.
Also, I agree with the fact that thinking someone can snap there fingers and be ok with a penis is unrealistic and insulting to the lived experience of those who have suffered assault.
excuse me. i only said men to match the absurdity in the original post. this part below can be taken in that way.
“It’s also TOTALLY possible to have a sexual relationship with a person who has a penis, while communicating boundaries, turn ons, turn offs, triggers, etc., and this can include deciding not to have sexual touching involving that part (or their feet, or hands, or tongue, or certain words, or certain places, or a specific position, a facial expression, a sound, …you get it).”
i agree with your last point. i think people here are quick to jump to defend a group of people (which is understandable), while insulting a whole other group.
i love this article
i love all the amazing trans* positive comments
i needed this resource so, so baddd
THANK YOU SAVANNAH!!!!! <3 <3 <3 <3 <3
me too!! i’m facilitating a workshop on trans-misogyny next week– the article alone was fab enough to include as suggested reading, but this discussion has just brought out so many of the points that we try to critically think about in the workshop. misogyny affects us all– cis, trans, anyone who doesn’t fit into the patriarchal hetero- and cis-normative hierarchy. attacks on femaleness, femininity, femme identities– they devalue all of us (including those of us who don’t identify as such but get lumped in by the narrow-minded oppressive structures of society). rape culture is perpetuated by this system. we are all in this together — i so love all the solidarity and strength here.
Thank you for reading, glad you felt a connection with my words… xo
just wanted to add that that i got the “single & christian?” christianmingle.com ad to accompany this article. brilliant.
lmao. THIS!
Can I just say I am ASTOUNDED at the hate expressed in this thread? Wow. Clearly due to my own naivety I was blind to the absurd amount of casual judgement and categorization thrown around regarding trans folks. I had no idea. Reading these comments was seriously eye-opening. So thank you Savannah, for writing this article and opening up this dialogue. And also thank you to all the women in this thread who share similar experiences with the author for continuing to gracefully deal with the crap that is (frequently, I imagine) tossed your way. I have been seriously educated today. Not only that, but I am further motivated to not only embrace but prioritize trans issues in my own life.
Thank you Luna for being open to learning and not automatically responding without any real knowledge of my life!! I have fought hard to be my true self. And I have been attacked both verbally and physically for daring to be myself!! I do not need someone else to say who I am, I know and that is all that matters to me!!
Hi! Cool article, and as a trans women who is into the dudes, I think it’s also a good guide for *anyone* who wants to get with trans women. Although the items pertaining to trans women in queer women’s and lesbian communities are more specifically for lesbian and other lady-inclined sexualities, I think most of the points raised in the article– communicate! don’t fetishize! respect each other’s boundaries! don’t be transphobic or a misogynist!– are generally just a good primer for dating trans women. And just, you know, dating people regardless of gender.
That being said, I think I will express some dismay at both the ignorance displayed in the comments, particularly by people who *clearly* haven’t read the article (privilege if I have ever seen it), and to some of the responses to this same ignorance. I think language like “radscum” and such is alienating, and probably not very productive. Yes, I disagree wholeheartedly with some of the people in the comments, and I am sick to death of transphobia and cissexism, let me tell you– but surely we can disagree and discuss our differences without resorting to namecalling or rudeness.
Finally, and at the risk of stepping in some of my own privilege: I want to call attention to the work of trans sociologist Viviane Namaste who is *just as crucial* as Julia Serano, but is somewhat overlooked. She says that the problem of discussions about trans women is that they so often focus on identity (“are trans women women or aren’t they?”) that the institutional aspects of trans existence are overlooked. So while yes, it’s important to examine the prejudices that trans women encounter in lesbian communities, I also want to emphasize once again the structural, institutional aspects of trans oppression. Is there anti-trans violence in lesbian communities, for example? How might this violence be dealt with by both the community and by institutional authorities?
It sucks that every discussion of trans women and sexuality inevitably boils down to “we don’t want to sleep with you, you non-women!” The issue is more complex than that, involves a lot more than just sex acts and genitals, and deserves a better, more nuanced analysis. I’ve considered myself whether I’m into trans men (I am), whether I’d be into their genitals (I don’t know) and how I plan to get around this if I ever form a relationship with a trans man. I understand that these discussions are often awkward, painful, and confusing, but I think we all owe it to each other to at least be more respectful. Finally, I also want to point out that this whole “don’t force me to sleep with you!” shotgun response, when NO ONE was saying that, and in fact everyone was saying EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE of that, is a response I’ve come to expect from transphobic (and homophobic) straight men. So.
Thank you for this, I think this was one of the most brilliant comments on this article! And I totally agree with you that it’s totally aggravating that sometimes it seems we can’t have these discussions without the proper nuance that it deserves. So many anti-trans woman individuals are commenting on here, projecting a position on my article that I never took and that I explicitly rejected in the article itself and in my comments repeatedly.
But also it’s very frustrating that some trans women allow the conversation to be reduced to referring to the radfems as “radscum” that kind of garbage. That’s not a conversation, it’s just name-calling and it’s silly. And I do think that when we aren’t sure, we can afford to give women on this thread the benefit of the doubt. Just because someone states that they do not want to be with a woman with a penis, that in and of itself does not make that person a transphobe.
Thanks for saying that!
Ps. I read your blog all the time. :)
Pps. You should get Quinnae Moongazer to do a post and school us all on awesome trans theorists.
Jesus these comments are a clusterfuck. Yo Savannah, thanks for writing this article, and props to everyone who’s engaging with all these frustrating as fuck responses cause I would’ve ragequit a long time ago.
Why rage quit when you can bake cookie WITH RAGE!
See the RAGE BAKING bit.. oh, say about a zillions comments earlier. :)
LOL!
I just got done rage baking some cookies and I wish I can give you some!!!!
I’d like a macaroon, thxu.
I’m bisexual and it would be easy to assume that I wouldn’t have a problem with genitalia but, unfortunately, it’s not that simple for me. I like women with vaginas and men with penises. I would be with a transwoman with a vagina and a transman with a penis, a ciswoman with a vagina and a cisman with a penis. For reasons I can’t explain, I’m just not attracted to women with penises or men with vaginas. I’m worried that trans people will be offended by this, but it’s not something I can help! I was called transphobic by someone on Tumblr who asked me about this once but I really can’t understand why. I’m not saying transwomen aren’t women or transmen aren’t men… My sexual preferences are the way they are. If I could make myself be attracted to transwomen with penises and transmen with vaginas then I would be – it’s not like I enjoy having limited options!
You have a right to be attracted to whom you are attracted! My perspective is that just as many of us discriminate in our sexual preferences based on secondary sexual characteristics (e.g. I am estrophiliic- generally attracted to women who have estrogen as their primary sex hormone), I see no argument against discrimination in choosing a sex partner based on primary sex characteristic (genitalia).
I do think there are always valid questions to discuss given the context of the cissexist, trans-misogynistic world that we happen to inhabit, but you have a right to choose a sex partner with whom you are comfortable.
Thank you! I discussed the above with a trans friend and he said the same thing. Just don’t want to be hurting anyone’s feelings, y’know!
Ok, now it’s just getting to the point where I want to bow down and worship you. Your comments are amazing.
savannah, i LOVE this article. just wanted to add my voice to the people saying thank you for writing such a great post!
This comment has been flagged as it is a violation of Autostraddle’s comment policy.
If you could care less about your partner’s genitals, then you are bi/pansexual or ‘queer’ in the modern sense. YOu are NOT Lesbian. Many of us Lesbians/Dykes WANT to ONLY BE SEXUAL with bio females that possess a Yoni, that they have worn all their lives. Call yourself queer, call yourself whatever, but if you sport a penis, a ‘ladystick’ or however else you want to call it, then you are NOT a Lesbian or a Female, no matter what your cosmetic appearance may be.
Every Lesbian I personally know only date/have sex with those who have possessed a Yoni/Vulva/Cunt/Vagina all their lives. I don’t care about infinite details of who possesses an XXY an XYY, or anything than a double XX chromosome, or any other infinitesmal detail that gets away from Dyke reality and being of lusting, loving and WANTING another Dyke/Lesbian whose been FEMALE all her life and possessed Female anatomy.
Cis is a hate word for us, it is NOT innocuous, and while so many in the trans movement engage in both Lesbophobia and often misogyny, they are not called upon it. Do not use Cis for us. While I have been born female, I have NEVER fit into ‘female roles’ or appropiate heterosexually defined ‘female gender roles’ am not ladylike, and have been tomboy graduated to hardcore Butch when I came out. So, no, I’m not ‘cis’ by YOUR definition. Nor do I want to transition to male, being Female Proud. Femaleness is innate, due to our biology and biomorphic BEING. It is Females I want to be around, to cavort, to ritual, to have sex with to connect with on ALL levels. It is patriarchal to INSIST we must have the born male in our midst at all times, or those who want to be male(FTM). And to keep calling us by a word we REJECT. WE get to define ourselves.
Not only have I talked to many Lesbians about this, I have talked to women of color and women of color Lesbians about this, and they feel similarly. They don’t want to be defined by white culture or the white man, and THAT is what you are doing when you keep INSISTING on calling us ‘cis’ when we have rejected that identity and terminology. It shows basically you do NOT respect bio female Lesbians/Dykes, our culture, our way of life, our Beings, and our Herstory. You want to supplant it with your own revisionist depictions of it….and you have done countless revisionism to our Dyke herstory. We reject that too. Countless Dykes have REJECTED heterosexual gender roles for eons, for all or much of their lives, and countless Dykes, especially Butches are doing their best to hold ONTO their femaleness and be Female proud without being pressured to ‘transition’ to cure their problems in patriarchy.
You cannot find your freedom through surgeries, or hormones or a pill…or by revising others’ herstory, culture, or truths, and coopting them. So us bio female Dykes will stand up for ourselves and FOR OUR bio philic Female loving bio Female DYKE BEINGS. If you choose to misunderstand us, that’s your business. But you will no longer be permitted to coopt us.
-FeistyAmazon
Then leave.
Don’t mind me I’ll just be over here in the corner being smitten.
I’m a bit surprised that she didn’t whip out the ‘Cis sounds like cyst. Trans people call us a word that sounds like cyst. That means they want people with vaginas and their commonly attendant organs to have cysts. Trans people are the patriarchal satan of DOOM and give us cysts!’ argument.
Is cystgender a valid identity?
It can be for you. =)
You know, there’s a cruel irony in your comment, where you lament the fact that people use “cis” to describe you as an injustice, as a form of reality defining that you find to be oppressive, then proceed to claim that trans women can’t call ourselves lesbians or females (or, presumably, women) and that women who are into trans women can’t call themselves lesbians. You yourself are engaging in the same kinds of oppression you decry. Why is it ok for you to define the realities of other people, but unjust for other people to define you?
Also, the assumption that people’s problems are automatically solved when they transition is LUDICROUS. Seriously, do you want to ask Robert Eads or Brandon Teena whether transitioning to male “cured their problems” under patriarchy? You can’t, because transphobic violence killed them. This point keeps popping up, that trans men are taking the easy way out, and I want to laugh at the people who raise it as some attempt at “trans critique” or whatever, but I can’t, because the assumptions underpinning this assertion are beyond idiotic, and beyond destructive.
THIS is cis privilege. The assumption that you can name us, but for us to name you is a gross injustice, a violation of your sense of self that you are nevertheless free to inflict upon us with impunity. The assumption that you can blatantly make up facts about our lives and histories, and that somehow these entirely unjustified, entirely conjectural claims will somehow pass for actual analysis and critique. It’s lazy, sloppy, and illogical, and unfortunately, this is the reality that all trans people are made to deal with.
Go home Feisty Amazon, you’re drunk on hate.
I have been skimming through this near novel-length thread and EVERYTIME I see this: “Go home Feisty Amazon, you’re drunk on Hate.” I cannot help but crack up. :)
HEE!
Methinks you have stumbled into the wrong generation. Go home to the second wave. We don’t want you here.
also- you Indian? Hindu? if not? probably should not be using Yoni to describe your vulva. Its a bit appropriative don’t you think?
Wow, seriously, as a cisgender woman: the idea that you think the most important thing about my existence is my genitals is disgusting. I wouldn’t want my vagina anywhere near someone who thinks that my being is dictated by it. How can you not find that a sexist idea? You seriously think of the world as inhabited by walking penises and vaginas? That’s all we are?
Whoa. Just. Wow.
Ok, here’s what you do there Fiesty Amazon. First,just take a deep breath and realize YOU don’t get to define us either. Not with any combination of appropriated cultural terms. Yoni? Really? You somehow don’t strike me as a native Sanskrit person. But I could be wrong.
So, in the interested of peace I offer a vision. How about you trot down that wonderful memory lane where the rhetoric of separatists and Janice Raymond were flowing like honey and the dim strains of Hendrix and Joplin were still pouring through the airwaves.
Wander those halcyon trails of memories lit by the warm firelight of burning bras and settle down on that bench along side the river of idealized impossible lands where white women were white, and black women were supposedly like white women, only really tan.
Now, once there lean back into that twilight time and take a deep breath and just soak up that wondrous feeling of when people still gave a shit what you think or bought into your hate-filled garbage as ‘liberation’.
Golly, it sure tastes like relevance don’t it. To bad it’s expired.
*YAY! I get to finally go to bed! SLEEP TIME! Tune in tomorrow for more -Fun- on Autostraddle featuring the way back machine*
Hey, Jimi and Janis (who was a fellow queer woman BTW) deserve better. But YES to everything else you said, Shelby.
How do you even stay so calm? I’m already in a state of wanting to scratch my eyes out and throwing them at my screen. But according to Dan Savage my sexual identity is “angry bisexual with a keyboard”… So that’s that.
“angry bisexual with a keyboard”
let’s start a club!
Dan Savage is rude.
rather rude!
That sounds like some weird exploitation movie.
*MOVIE-VOICE*
After an awkward conversation turns into a revelation to co-workers and friends, one powerful female computer hacker discovers that what shouldn’t matter, suddenly means everything!
Her identity erased,her sexual preferences dismissed, this is one woman that is Bi-Furious!
This summer you’ll be seeing…
RED,SHE SAID.
“ANGRY BISEXUAL WITH A KEYBOARD!”
Omg, your comment wins all the things. Seriously, thank you for giving me something to chuckle about at the end of a long hard day.
I want to change my screen name to ANGRY BISEXUAL WITH A KEYBOARD! lol
Bi-furious. I died. I want to make a youtube clip reading that in my best movie trailer voice. also, i kinda love you.
I can’t take credit for the bi-furious thing. It’s a line from Scott Pilgrim the movie. Which is a movie I have a love hate relationship with. :) But that part cracked me up.
*lol*
I need this movie to be made! And I want the “angry bisexual with a keyboard club” to be a thing.
Especially after I learned from an enlightened lesbian separatist (who dedicated her tumblr to celebrate biphobia) that “bisexual women […] are the ONLY women who are REALLY heterosexual”. I. kid. you. not.
What? How does that even make.. What now?
Teacher!
SOMEONE IS BEATING UP ENGLISH AGAIN!
I’m telling!
How about you trot down that wonderful memory lane where the rhetoric of separatists and Janice Raymond were flowing like honey and the dim strains of Hendrix and Joplin were still pouring through the airwaves.
Wander those halcyon trails of memories lit by the warm firelight of burning bras and settle down on that bench along side the river of idealized impossible lands where white women were white, and black women were supposedly like white women, only really tan.
This will never not be the best response ever. You win at the internets.
You make me sick. Like physically nauseous. How would you feel if you were a trans lady reading this ? The lesbian community has suffered so much, how can you perpetuate suffering ?
Have you forgotten already ? About those people who would refuse to consider lesbians as real women ? Don’t you see you’re doing the same thing.
You’re the one who isn’t a lesbian. Your hate of trans women just reveals your hate of ALL women.
And anyways, what you’re saying doesn’t even make sense. You don’t get to say what kind of genitilia I want to touch/lick.
As a South Asian woman of colour:
1. Don’t you dare speak for me
2. The word “Yoni” is not yours to use
3. Also you might want to check on the use of “Amazon” since I’m guessing you are not Latina.
Oh pshaw! Don’t you know that unless you’re white cis-gendered Western middle class you don’t exist in the old feminist equations (and a lot of the new ones) except as a person to be saved ! Gosh!
Though I fully understand the outrage against this person’s comment, if we’re going to start insisting that people only use English words of Anglo-Saxon origin, we’re going to have to cut out about 50% of our vocabulary…
Agreed. The use of yoni might be appropriative, but like, the entire English language comes from somewhere else.
OMG you guys I just reread through all 6XX comments. I feel like my eyes are about to fall out.
I realized upon rereading the article and the comments that I had in fact missed the emphasis on not wanting to hook up with a woman with different genitalia than your own is OK. Sorry if I added to the overall confusion, Savannah.
I will say something about the follow-up paragraph though, the one about nobody’s body being a representation of the patriarchy. I think suggesting to cis women that they reconsider their stance on genitalia is unfair. Sure, some may be anti-penis because they think it represents the patriarchy, but I can’t imagine that it’s an important percentage. Not liking penises, or not being attracted to them, or PTSD all feel like they’d be more common.
I also want to thank pac for her comments, because I think she and I share a similar stance. Also, of course, Shelby, Savannah, and others for their thoughtful, careful responses. Except for the radfems, this has been a really interesting discussion.
Shit. That was supposed to go at the end.
“Yoni” has a very specific and particular history tied into South Asian culture; it’s not even a word that’s been incorporated into common English parlance. There is a lot of history and legacy around South Asian attitudes towards gender and sexuality that have been lost to colonization, both past (Victorian England laws criminalising homosexuality, for instance) and present (the bastardizing of Tantra and Kama Sutra into something overly commercialised by White folk leading to its dismissal as “New Age woo”).
The use of “Yoni” by trans-exclusionary radical feminists such as Feisty Amazon is a major insult towards a rich history of gender variance in South Asian culture, such as hijra – culture that is already under threat of extinction and discrimination. There’s also been really strong movements towards asserting rights for sex workers in South Asia (such as the legalization of sex work in Bangladesh) that these radfems would not respect due to their anti-sex-work policies. As it is, it’s been a major challenge for South Asians and many other folks of colour to be taken seriously and be granted our agency by White feminists (whatever their flavour) – they keep trying to save us from ourselves (see: ZOMG BURKAS) and won’t recognise our gender, sexuality, self-expression. If you don’t do things the White Way you’re doing it wrong.
So yes, I resent the use of Yoni in this instance, because it’s being used by someone who does not respect the cultural history and legacy that led to Yoni in the first place.
Fair enough. I took your comment to mean that anyone who isn’t South Asian shouldn’t use the word “yoni”, which is a stance I would not agree with, but I can certainly appreciate your point here.
I LOVE your comment and how tersely you shot down “Feisty Amazon.” I’m curious about your opinion of feminists who aren’t radscum using the word “yoni,” though. Do you always consider that to be appropriative and offensive?
I don’t personally use it, but I do know a lot of women who use “yoni” as an alternative to “vagina,” since “vagina” has explicitly patriarchal etymology (meaning “sheath for a sword”). I know other women who use c*nt and p*ssy instead, but I think those are far more offensive in their origins and use and I don’t care to reclaim them.
Bottom line is that I don’t have a good word for what I want to call my genitals, but I don’t want to be one of woo-woo yoga-hippies who appropriates Southeast Asian culture in a way that is offensive. I know you can’t speak for an entire nation, culture, or ethnicity, but do you personally find the use of the word “yoni” offensive as an alternative to “vagina” by English-speakers?
I don’t ever want to be the Cultural Appropriation Police, and I don’t ever want to be in the position of having to give the Stamp of Approval either. Been there done that got tired.
As far as the use of Yoni goes: I would suggest you ask yourself what is it about ‘yoni’, as opposed to other words, that speaks to you.
Honestly, this comment came off as a chant for a fucked-up cult in a really cheesy sci-fi movie from the 1970’s. (Probably an accurate description of transphobic RadFeminism)
funny, since the word Lesbian is based on the Greek island of Lesbos where Sappho (who was bisexual) lived, you’re the one who is narrowing the use of the word to a restricted meaning
Hwell shit now I have to get another alias since the troll stole the one I comment on nsfw sundays with :c
i’m confused…what is to be gained from such directed soap boxing?
and for an article including the line “I don’t speak for all trans women”, i sure felt like i was being spoken [often incorrectly] for quite a lot.
Hi everybody, sorry for being so ridiculously out of it in getting back on the comments on here… I’m on Tokyo time and it’s a little out of sync with the timing of comments that are probably mostly coming from North America. I responded to a couple of key points already above, but will try to get back and be more involved later in the day (local time).
For the record, most of this article is directed towards cis women (and trans women as well, to some extent) who might already be attracted to a trans woman or considering the possibility of dating a trans woman.
So many of these comments from anti-trans woman radfems are, you know, kind of irrelevant? We get it, you don’t like us… we don’t want to date you either!
So true Savannah!! I only want to be with those who want to be with me and accept my life!! That is why I would never go to a WBW venue!!
What does wbw mean?
I’m guessing womyn born womyn, a phrase that started the beginning of my journey toward queerness and interest in queer theory, even at 20, barely knowing anything about trans* people, let alone that I waspansexual, it still made me deeply uncomfortable.
Sheesh, the trolls really showed up en masse for this one.
This article is fucking brilliant, thank you for sharing it with us.
I loved this article! It’s great to see a guide like this on Autostraddle. I haven’t personally made any of those mistakes while going out with trans women, but I’ve heard some awful dating stories about people who did. So, thanks for putting this up here, it took a ton of courage to do so when the comments were bound to be filled with haters/trolls, and it’s a seriously useful article for a ton of people.
Anyway, there was only one part of your article that I disliked. Here’s why: I date cis and trans* women, genderqueer people, and occasionally trans men. I’m not interested in cis men. This isn’t because I hate cis men, nor is it because I think trans men aren’t real men. I’m just not attracted to cis guys. I don’t know why. It’s just the way I am.
So, the part of your article that I had an issue with was this one sentence:
“The implications of these two points together are that statements such as “I am attracted to cis women but not trans women” simply do not make sense and are rooted in social prejudice.”
I agree that this statement can be rooted in social prejudice, but this isn’t always the case. For varying reasons that may or may not have anything to do with prejudice, some people just don’t want to date people who are trans* (or people who are cis, for that matter). If your statement was true, then the same concept must apply to trans men. So, a statement such as “I am attracted to trans men but not cis men” would have to be rooted in social prejudice. There lies the issue with your argument.
According to your logic, I’d have to be either transphobic or prejudiced against cis guys in order to be attracted to trans men but not cis men. That simply isn’t true. I’m totally fine with cis men, I just don’t want to date them. Similarly, I don’t think trans men are women. I see them as men, and when I date them, I’m in a heterosexual relationship. This is why I think that using a statement like “saying that you are attracted to X but not Y is rooted in social prejudice” is false. Although this could be true some of the time, it isn’t true 100% of the time, and that should have been reflected in your statement. Using it as a blanket statement for all people will erase the experiences of people like me.
Thanks again for posting this! Sorry about all the radscum trolls. I hope to see more of your stuff on Autostraddle in the future.
The problem with the statement “I’m attracted to cis women and not trans women” is that it is based on the assumption that “trans” is a thing you can see or feel or sense. That trans implies a specific kind of body or appearance.
It ignores the existence of people like me. Unless I choose to disclose my history, I pass as cis: clothed or naked.
So if I’m lying there next to this women in her bed, post-coital, and I happen to mention that I can’t stay over cause I need to go home and take my estrace, do I suddenly magically become undesirable? And how would that be a thing other than prejudice?
I really hope that those people who are “attracted to cis women but not trans women” make a point to ask any potential partners about their medical and surgical histories. Otherwise they might accidentally screw me. And that would be unfortunate. I’m not sure I could handle the trauma of sleeping with a bigot.
Oh god, I love your comment so much! Not only because it is witty and funny but also because it is so very true: Nobody wants to fuck a shitty bigoted person.
Thank you! I try my best.
I guess I’m just a bit tired of the underlying assumptions that inevitably pop up in this conversation.
First, Savannah posts an article that is basically “how to get into my pants,” so a bunch of folk decide to jump up and down telling me that they don’t want in my pants. Great. Good to know.
It’s a bit like straight women who think every lesbian wants to fuck them at the drop of a hat. And that it is only their disinterest that holds our inevitable carnal cravings at bay.
I’m pretty sure I wasn’t sold on the whole letting you in my pants deal in the first place. So I really wouldn’t worry about it. We won’t be having sex. It’s okay. Chill.
Second, imagine a trans woman. Got that image in your head? Awesome. I look almost, but not entirely unlike that. Trans folk are about as non-monolithic a group as it’s possible to collect. Chances are, you’ve already been attracted to a trans woman. You just didn’t know she was trans.
Honestly, Savannah’s really only trying to make two points: 1) Don’t make assumptions. 2) Don’t be a dick. Congrats. You now know how to date a trans woman. Given that all the people on here posting about not wanting the hot trans woman sex have already failed one or both of those criteria, they can rest easy in the knowledge that there won’t be any hot trans woman sex in their future.
Sarah so true, I also am not visible as a trans-woman and post-op. I have even had discussions with women about being pregnant after talking about my sons. I would never lie to someone about my history but do not as a general rule tell everyone I meet. It is just TMI and takes away from our discussions. I am not nor never will be attracted to someone who does not accept me as my true self!! So you that do not wish to date me don’t worry I don’t want to date you!!
This is a WONDERFUL article! I want everyone to hear all of the support and gratitude for writing an amazing article over the rest of the noise here.
Aw dangit I came down here to write something like “yay for this post!” but on the way down I passed all the infuriating stuff in the comments. Mad props to the folks willing to be the voice of reason in those arguments, because I as a trans lady am still burnt out on them.
I’m bisexual and I used to get caught up responding to people who engaged in similar flaming on the bisexuality posts. I also am too burnt out by hate to engage with it anymore and admire people who still have that strength.
I clicked on that little green plus because I think it’s important that we support each other when we’re totally burnt out. It’s a common problem and I just wanted to take a moment to say I liked reading your comment.
Similar to djcapelis, I clicked the little green plus because burnout sucks, but also because I really like your name.
First: I love this article, this is just in response to the comments.
Wow, some people are so behind it shocks me. We’re still fighting about whether a lesbian can date a trans woman and still call herself a lesbian? Seriously? I feel like having to be a “good gay” all over again. I want to discuss the actual interesting, difficult stuff. Like the morality of age gaps, and what crosses the line. Hell, I think cousins dating is not an issue. I think it’s perfectly okay for someone to call themselves a lesbian and be married to a guy, or even fuck men! Actually, I think the idea that a large group of people is “exclusively” always attracted to only one type of person is a little silly. Usually we’re attracted to people before we know what their gender (or sex) is. Sexuality is all over the plus. Gender is one of the most complicated things there is! And we’re still debating the right of trans lesbians to exist. Sigh.
THANK YOU!
This article is great; trolls will be trolls.
Anyway. Kudos to you, Savannah. I also think it’s worth pointing out that some of your tips are just general good advice for dating ANYone. :)
http://www.quickmeme.com/meme/3tdqb6/
(is there a way to past the actual image into the thread itself? I suck at these things)
I’m going to take a moment to talk about something from the article that resonated with me completely unrelated to the rest of the comments on here. I found the points you made about cis women “dating trans women on the side” somewhat perplexing. As a poly trans woman, I can’t say I personally share that frustration much. I wanted to take a moment to poke at the concept and I’m curious to dig into it a bit.
As a bit of background, I’m not super big on hierarchy in my relationships. Even though there’s a girl I live with and we’ve been together for quite some time and identify as fairly committed to each other, we don’t use the label primary because that feels unfair to our other relationships.
That said, there are people I’ve dated in a context where we’ve been clear about keeping things more casual. Honestly I haven’t felt like being trans was part of the dynamic on someone else’s side for keeping me at arms length. (Oh! Okay, maybe a few times, if I squint and think about some things awhile back, but it hasn’t felt that way for awhile.) Maybe I’ve just been lucky or screened those partners out really early, (These days I would immediately run away from the type of dynamic you outlined.) but I feel like it hasn’t been a big problem for me.
Actually if anything my experience was that trans issues were a contributing factor in *me* opting not to get more serious with someone. She and I were in very different places in our lives and she had a lot less experience with relationships and sex. To be honest, that seemed like a really uncomfortable situation and it just felt like it would be better if she ended up with someone else who could have a relationship on a lower difficulty setting before jumping right in with me to go kick ass in nightmare mode.
Anyway. I think the trans/poly intersection has some fascinating dynamics and is surprisingly common. I’m glad to see some of those issues come out, though I think there’s a lot more yet to be written about it all. :)
Hi, thanks for this interesting comment, and yeah, honestly, it’s nice to take a break from the whole “yeah, it’s okay not to date a woman with a penis!!” thing that I’m doing on repeat here lol… about the “dating us on the side” thing, well, maybe there’s an element of bad luck that leads me to include that section in this article. Maybe it’s just a coincidence that the two or three women that I was really, really into who were really, really into me over the last few years happened to be unavailable for random reasons that had nothing to do with someone being trans.
The woman I met in Germany back in 2010 was amazing. She also lived in West Germany, while I almost always work/visit East Germany when I’m in the country. So it’s not just that we were kind of in exile from each other when I went back to Canada during that time, even when I visit Germany we’re still cut off from each other.
So that one (and it still brings tears to my eyes even just to talk about *that* one) has nothing to do with me being trans. But then in Toronto in the year or so after that there was a long series of hookups-that-went-nowhere and maybe-we-wills and outright being stood up that it started to feel like a pattern.
But maybe it wasn’t a pattern, but just a lot of bad luck. I can’t be absolutely sure. And maybe my own insecurities played a role in that perception; I’m sure that’s possible. All I knew is that I went through a long period when it felt like everyone wanted to spend time with me… up to a point. There’s more to it, but it’s hard to be more precise about it here. I dunno, I hope that helps to clarify my thinking on where I was coming from in that part, at least a little bit.
Oh of course! Thanks by the way for spending so much time writing good thoughtful comments up there. I know how much energy it can take and I’m really glad you felt like you had the time, space and stamina to keep it up and keep your responses calm and measured. Anyway. I just thought wanted to mention that.
I totally feel you on the geography thing. That’s happened to me and I think if there’s any silver lining, it’s that the reason things aren’t working is pretty clear. You can *count* the kilometers or miles between you and the person you’d like to be connecting with and *know* that’s the reason things are like they are. There’s a peace in that certainty, even if it sucks. I’m sorry you’re geographically separated from someone you care for.
I think the more I think about it, I think the feeling of being everyone’s thing on the side can be a common phase that people move in and out of and I just happen to be on the out of it side at the moment. (And the more I think about it, the more I remember when times when that didn’t feel as true!) I think it’s a phase that can feel very true for both trans and cis women. I think it’s possible that trans women have some extra reasons why it might be the case and I think it’s often true that we assume those reasons contribute maybe even more than they do. So I think it’s a mix maybe.
I think it can be hard to separate the stuff that’s trans related from the stuff that’s not and the stuff where trans is a contributing factor to an otherwise fairly common phenomena just adds an extra layer of layers to otherwise already complex fruitcake. I’m not sure where that leaves us and I’m not sure how to deconstruct that in a way that seems super useful, but thanks for prodding at it with me.
It’s been good to read about your experiences and I hope you keep sharing them. :)
Ugh. Can we just have one giant “ignorant/hurtful things people say about trans* people and bisexuals” or even general “ignorant/hurtful things people say” thread? And then every time a topical article comes up and someone tries to post one, we can just be like, “nope, see, the ignorant things thread is over there. Go over there and read six other people posting the exact thing you just said, and three reasonable responses as to why it’s ignorant.” And then we can actually focus on comments that deal with the subject of the article.
Great article, thanks for writing it! And a huge thanks to the Autostraddle members and others who have made so many positive (and gigglefit causing) comments.
I think I rather like it here! Rather!!
Me too :)
I grew up babysitting during the lesbian baby-boom of the early nineties. As the child of a lesbian and as the primary baby-sitter for about a dozen children of lesbians, it was very hurtful to overhear hateful prejudice from the parents of these kids (or from lesbian activists my mother and these women respected) that stated I was not and would never be a girl.
I marched in pro-choice and gay rights marches in Washington at thirteen and fourteen…but had no one to turn to when I was getting beaten up and eventually crippled by violence against me at school.
As a teenager I encountered so much hate against trans folks from lesbians that as an adult I have avoided dating women. I think I might be bi, but as an adult I have never risked flirting with a woman because it would be too horrifying if she treated me as a guy. Two years ago a dear friend tried to get me to come with her to her favorite bar to show me how different things are from back then…but I chickened out.
Seeing the hateful trolling comments posted here triggered a panic attack for me, but in the last few months I have made a lot of progress in learning to deal with my fears and so I kept reading. It was amazing to see so many responses calling out the hate for what it is, hate.
It took me a long time to start dealing with my fear of violence from men, but my fear of derision from women is something I am just starting to face. So…I just wanted to give a big thank you to the author of this article and to all the other women who stood up against hateful comments.
Thank you Emma for having the courage to be so open and honest with us here on this thread and I’m glad that you appreciated my article. I’m sorry to hear about your ordeal during school though I almost feel like I can’t really say anything here that will do justice to how horrific that really is.
It’s sad that these types of conversations sometimes just reduce to level upon level of distrust and outright abuse, reinforcing of patriarchal roles, etc… and I’m sorry to hear that the hateful comments here made you feel triggered regarding your past.
But like I said thank you for your honesty and for courageously participating in those marches for bodily autonomy for others, even if many of them did not return the favor. Personally I think that is something for you to be proud of, to stand up for justice, no matter what.
all my <3
Thank you for your kind response. ^_^
I know I made the topic a bit darker by bringing up personal stuff, but I think many people who are only familiar with cis life experiences are unaware how comments that seem innocuous to them can be very hurtful. It always amazes me how complete strangers feel they have the right to talk about what is between someone else’s legs, even when it comes to children.
Anyways, I can’t express how grateful I am for people speaking out. It makes a world of difference.
Another great article. The message is good though there are some flaws in the wording: http://www.insufferableintolerance.com/what-not-to-say-to-a-transwoman-on-the-first-date-or-ever/
Has anyone pointed out to the troll that many transmen do not have bottom surgery due to ineffective surgery techniques and just remain on hormones? They don’t have penises and yet they are men.
Congrats troll, you’ve just managed to reduce the identites of the entire population down to a few bits of skin between our legs. Way to devalue everyone ever. You’ve completely disregarded the thoughts, feelings and emotions of everyone since the dawn of history.
Well done -slow claps-
(sarcasm)
Hum. I’m a trans guy and I have a penis regardless of whether I had bottom surgery or not. People should be more careful when naming other people’s genitalia, especially in such a broad way. Some trans guys identify with having vaginas, others with having a penis. Please be careful with potentially triggering comments like these in the future!
Ness, I don’t want to derail this thread away from trans women and cis women (ahem, like you did) but your comment about genital surgery for trans men is pretty rude. You’re completely justified in saying you don’t want or need trans genital reconstructive surgery for yourself (your body, your needs and choices), but to say that it’s “ineffective” is really dismissive to the many trans men who have gotten such surgeries and are extremely happy about them. Describing other people’s bodies as “ineffective” is joining Club Troll. *Derail out*
I don’t even know where to start.
I loved this article, I really thought it was amazing, I am always up for educating myself, so thank you so much for writing it.
The comments were a bit overwhelming, reading them on a friday morning between serving people at work, but in a way the comment thread is also so affirming, this is what I want sisterhood to be – women defending women, when it comes down to it, trans or cis, that’s what I want to see, and that’s what is inspiring.
This was a wonderful article. It was about time someone wrote this.
The only thing that bothered me in this article was the use of the word penis. When I was with my ex, who was trans, we never referred to any of her bits as “penis”, we called it “clit”.
We’d actually have to define the word penis. Does it mean “elongated clit” (because scientifically, “penises” are just clits on steroids) or “man-bits” ?
PLEASE never ever refer to my penis as “man-bits.” That’s really gross for me, and I think the vast majority of trans women would have a similar reaction.
I’m okay with calling her my penis, or dick or whatever, I don’t really care because in my mind those words are just associated with genitalia itself, not necessarily the person who has that genitalia.
BUT my penis is 100% woman. Because I’ve had estrogen as my primary sex hormone for over five years now, its changed a fair bit: the smell is different, the skin is soft, etc.
100% woman penis? Really?
yup. don’t like it, feel free to go talk to someone else.
I appreciate your article, but I disagree entirely with your phrasing of a penis ever being “100% woman”. That’s arguably aas offensive as “man bits”. I hope you understand that.
WHAT ? Why ? What’s so complicated about the fact that some women have penises, and some women don’t ? What’s so offensive about that ? Why is a penis any less feminine that a clit/vagina combination ?
This is a new and radical idea for some readers, sincerely. Which is why Savannah’s article and others are so valuable; they inform and educate. I never thought of a penis as separate from a male identity before this article.
Yeah okay the trolls are really having fun now. Good for them. Awesome feminism always equals laughing at people’s bodies!!
Why don’t you just go ahead and think whatever the hell you want and just leave me out of it.
Best of luck.
100% Woman penis. I was seriously like 0_o ???
This can’t be serious.
Sorry if I wasn’t clear, I was using “man-bits” as “penis-shaped gentilia belonging to a man” (even though all men don’t have penis-shaped genitilia, but we were talking about penises), as opposed to “penis-shaped genitilia belonging to a woman”.
Darling, I know you’re 100% woman, penis and all.
My issue was basically that the word penis means “man genitilia”, so it doesn’t really apply to trans women’s genitilia. And if I were trans, I’d find someone calling my genitilia “penis” offensive.
But I’m not, so I guess I can’t really speak for anyone.
From a very good article I read a while back:
“Please don’t gender [a trans* person’s] genitals for [them]. Many trans people suffer incredible anxiety (or dysphoria) in regards their bodies, and having gender ascribed to their bodies/genitals by.”
http://transnettampa.com/respect/
That about sums it up. I’m a woman. I have a woman’s nose. I have a woman’s breasts. I have a woman’s penis. Nuff said.
[Cissexist attack quoting austin fucking powers has been deleted]
Please, don’t. This only detracts from valid points.
[cissexist attack on Savannah’s genitals deleted]
Good question. This is soooo freaking confusing!! If I only have a preference for woman born penises does that make me man born penis phobic???? I don’t want to be a phobic you guise!!! :/
I know, right? It’s sooo confusing like Ikea instructions! Wait, no. It’s simple. She’s a woman. She has a woman’s body. Her penis is a woman’s penis. This is entirely the case unless she has some sort of campy horror movie condition going on and her penis is actually her evil conjoined twin escaping from her body to acquire the Necronomicon. Klaatu! Berada! … Transphobe!
THANK YOU FOR THE ARMY OF DARKNESS REFERENCE
I knew I recognized that from somewhere!!
Umm terrifying image brought up there because I have put together IKEA furniture so wrong.. so many times. :)
I think almost all of us were born from women or womyn or womons (sorry, I never learn the pleural for that one), with the exception of my (and my [ex] partner’s) daughter, and the kids of a few other trans guys I know of, who’ve born children. Not that I want to spend a whole lot of time here talking ’bout the menz, but that whole woman born thing is such a pile of crap, are they going tell me that my daughter couldn’t be a lesbian (or a woman) either?
p.s. Much thanx to the goodness of my cis sisters in the comments here, I would normally have found the comments in a piece like this far too triggering to read. I don’t think I’ll be braving MichFest soon, but it’s good to know that are women out there who’ve got our backs (and a few who’ll get us on our backs sometimes too).
Well Womon-born womon since you bring that up! I was born a woman and I had a penis, so that makes it a womon-born penis!!
Savannah,
Thank you for this essay. I found it educational and interesting and I appreciated it.
I also learned a lot through the comments (well, some of the comments), and I was excited to learn!
I’m sorry that some of the things said were upsetting, triggering, offensive etc… I’m deeply appreciative especially of the trans people in this thread who have shared their experience and insights.
So, on the “I would be OK sleeping with a trans woman if it wasn’t for the penis” thing…
I used to be that sort of person. I was sorting out my sexual orientation, found that I wasn’t attracted to cis men, and wondered whether it was the penis that was the issue.
Then I met my girlfriend. And while we got on beautifully, I did get really hung up about interacting with her penis for a while. I told her so, and she was understanding of my situation and we discussed some ways we could negotiate sexytimes.
Guess what? My girlfriend is NOT DEFINED BY HER PENIS ALONE! Much like how my vagina is not the be-all or end-all of sex, or love, or humanity. There’s this other 99% of her that’s wonderful and hot and sexy and lovely.
I was also recognising where my hangups over penises was coming from, and it was from insecurities about my sexual identity and not feeling recognised or validated for it. Not saying that this is necessarily the case for everyone, but for me it definitely was.
And hey, eventually I came around to being able to incorporate her penis into sexual play, once I got over my hangups and was able to appreciate it as a part of her body, much like her hand or head or chest, and that genitalia does not define gender.
And to clarify my own comment, since the last part sounds like “oh you’ll get over your hangups”…
Sometimes interaction with the penis is not what you ever want to do, and that’s cool. There’s tons of other fun sexy hot things you could do together that don’t even need to involve the penis or any form of genitalia. Hell, you might find a trans* woman that’s more of a giver than a receiver, or stone, for whatever reason. The possibilities are endless!
Sex isn’t just Body Part A in Body Part B, and relationships aren’t just about sex (Unless you want it to be, and if so, see first sentence in paragraph).
I understand that this piece is guidance for cis women who are dating trans women or interested in doing so. Fine and no doubt helpful for the target audience. But there seems to have been some suggestion in the comment thread that developed that if you decline sleeping with trans women (whether pre- or post-op), that this is somehow wrong and a preference that needs to be re-examined, and is somehow “transphobia.”
Can we please stop making people’s valid sexual preferences out to be some kind of phobia or prejudice? It is perfectly valid for a lesbian to not want to date someone who is sexually male albeit that her gender is female. This is how some people identify their lesbianism, and they are not bigoted for doing so, nor do they invalidate trans women’s identities.
There are also some people who feel the definition of lesbian is narrow and should be restricted to females who have sex with females. That means no-one involved has a penis, or used to have a penis either. Trans women might find this viewpoint offensive because it excludes them, but it would be good if in the spirit of womanly solidarity and understanding what lesbians go through, they recognised that lesbians have frequently their entire lives been told they should get more comfortable with penis and for many, the fact the penis is attached to a woman doesn’t make any difference to that pressure.
I am not saying I take either view myself. I do however feel extremely uncomfortable with women who don’t like penises or, I have to say, don’t want to date trans women, being called trolls, bigots or whatever else negative. Sexual preference is how it is. It can’t be compared to race and intersex people aren’t relevant to this and so on. The issue is the confusion of trans women’s identities with certain lesbian ideas of sexuality. I think lesbians who don’t want to have sexual encounters with penis must absolutely be allowed to express this view without being shouted down. Trans doesn’t trump that.
I am now waiting to be called a bigot, a troll, not a proper lesbian, for my comment to be flagged as against policy, for this to be deleted, for lots more posts about how penises can be womanly and how a woman loves her gf with a penis. Yes, your life is your life – can we not just respect lesbian preference often involves no penis? Or is that really, really offensive?
Actually, the original post and most of the comments here (not all) have stated that not wanting to be with a trans* woman who has a penis because she has a penis doesn’t make you a transphobe. It’s a sexual preference. Some have suggested that you might want to examine your preferences if this is the case. It’s always a good thing to do a bit of internal housekeeping. You can learn a lot about yourself that way that may surprise you.
The flipside of someone wanting to be with a trans*woman who has a penis solely because she has a penis is very creepily fetishistic and gives me more willies than I was born with (one).
Yes a lot of the comments have stated that not wanting to date a trans woman with a penis does not make you a transphobe. However, the article included this line:
The implications of these two points together are that statements such as “I am attracted to cis women but not trans women” simply do not make sense and are rooted in social prejudice.
Equating social prejudice, or more specifically, transphobia to sexual preference is not okay.
This is what people have been getting defensive about. To which other people have responded to intensely, giving the excuse that the article never said anything like that, which you also have provided.
Basically, no, people don’t have to re-examine their sexual preferences. And it’s okay if some people don’t want to have sex with penises. This has nothing to do with trans women being women. or being lesbians. THE END.
As I’ve stated numerous times in this comment thread, the point of that line is just to say that you could very well have been attracted to a trans woman (like any other woman) and not have realized it. It doesn’t mean you’re obligated to act on that. Please stop misconstruing my statements.
IMO, the entire penis discussion is mostly a front. As LJ was at least honest enough to say, a lot of lesbians who wouldn’t be intimate with a trans woman don’t care if someone is pre-op or post-op. If trans women are post-op they are described as having a “frankenvagina made by men” or a “phony vagina” or an “inverted penis,” or they have “male socialization” or they’re “taking up too much space in womon’s spaces,” or they “didn’t endure a girlhood,” or their transitioning is “raping women’s bodies…” or they’re delusional and mentally ill. The list goes on and I’ve read them countless times. There have been hundreds of threads like this before and they all devolve into this kind of thinking. And I can say it plays into most of the same assumptions (and even fetishizations) which (yes) straight cis men often repeat about trans women. It’s a waste of time trying to reason with them hoping you’re somehow going to be accepted or understood. Seriously.
LJ wrote: “it would be good if in the spirit of womanly solidarity”… now that IS genuinely funny and the best use of irony in the entire thread.
As I understood the article, and elsewhere in the comments where this was discussed, that particular line was meant to state that trans women are not inherently distinguishable from cis women when you happen to meet them in a public setting. If they have a different genital configuration and you happen to meet them while they’re naked, that’s different, but there is no easy means to walk down a street and point at each stranger and say, “cis, cis, cis, trans, cis, trans.”
If you’re not attracted to people with penises, whatever the rest of them looks like, then hey, that is your preference and it is 100% valid and unimpeachable. However, I think the point a lot of people are trying to make is that if you find a woman attractive, and she doesn’t have a genital configuration you dislike, and everything is honky peachy, and then the simple knowledge that she has a trans history rather than a cis one is enough to make her unattractive, then THAT, right there, starts to sound like transphobia. If everything else, and I do mean everything, were exactly the same, and you would date a woman who was cis but not the exact same woman who was trans, that’s where things start to creep over into uncomfortable territory.
Sexual preferences are not immune from bigotry, and examining them are part and parcel of examining our attitudes about life in all areas.
this is ridiculous. how would you feel if a straight person was asking a gay person to re examine their sexual preference? get the fuck out with this shit. asking lesbians that have absolute concrete sexual preferences to re examine them it is downright insulting.
I was thinking more along the lines of people who go “No Asians/black people/fat people”, which is sadly common and rooted in some prejudicial ideas about said subgroups.
you surely must be thinking genitals too because that’s what this WHOLE THREAD is about. don’t back peddle now, deary.
It’s sad that this entire thread has been solely focused on genitals, when that’s not the only aspect of a trans* woman, not the only aspect of sex, not even the only aspect of trans*-ness. And fuck off on the patronizing name-calling.
This is totally a false equivalency. Here’s why:
It’s worthwhile to examine your statement of sexual preference to see if there’s some transphobia given that transfolk are discriminated against and you might conceivably have picked up on this or internalized it in a heteronormative culture. (I submit for evidence this entire fucking thread!)
It is totally different to ask lesbians to examine whether they might have some latent heterophobia to work through given that, oh wait, heterosexuals are actually a totally privileged group. And that this sort of question is an expression of straight privilege rather than an opportunity to think through the ways that you might have internalized prejudice.
“I am now waiting to be called a bigot, a troll, not a proper lesbian, for my comment to be flagged as against policy, for this to be deleted…”
That’s gross that you’d have to feel that way here.
For real. I think people are trying so hard to not be offensive against marginalized groups (good), that they start equating lesbians with privileged beings, sitting at the top of the marginalized pyramid. And there’s just not enough sensitivity to go around!
Actually, just to keep the record straight, the only comments that have been flagged are those that say that penis=man. I don’t know if any have been deleted, but I presume those would be even worse. And the only people trying to say that people are or aren’t lesbian are the same ones who were saying that someone who was born with a penis is a man. Regarding troll or bigot, yes, I do agree those words have been thrown around with a casualness that renders them cheap and in many cases not accurate. Generally speaking, though, it’s been pretty apparent who has actually read the article and who came here with an axe to grind.
For me, the best parts of this MASSIVE thread and article have been the points of understanding that flicker through the chaos.
I have responded with flippant defenses to those who I saw as evoking nothing more than hatred and other-policing.
But some folks, like you JanesTh, its been nice to disagree on some levels but still at least be on the same continent.
I defend anyone’s rights to have a preference of who and how they want to be sexual. Which means if you don’t like the penis, you don’t have to.
I think the point (ugh so near a pun, sorry) is just if a penis shaped thing is permanently attached to a woman (as in part of, not a strap-on + super glue accident) don’t frame frame that dislike as based on only liking women, it’s just a sexual preference.
Preferences don’t generalize. When they do, they are not preferences, they are a problem.
Two things shelby:
1) your comments on this whole thread have been amazing and intelligent and I’m almost a little thankful (eep!) for some of the negative response because of you and others dropping truth bombs errwhere is actually super helpful and LEARNING IS HAPPENING.
2) I almost peed my pants at the mental image of a “strap on + super glue accident”
LJ, for me it is not that some lesbians do not want to have sex with someone who has or had a penis!! It is when they do not accept me as a woman!! Everybody has ideas that define who and how they want to have sex!! Nothing wrong with that!! Just do not deny me the right to identify as a woman or a lesbian!!
My apologies for the word “confusion” above which makes the sentence read not as I had intended and might seem rude. I meant the “fusion” between lesbian sexuality and trans women’s self-perceptions. I blame my phone!!
What do you say to a woman who refuses to accept you as part of the community because of your history? As I remember it, “any woman could be a lesbian, maybe even you”.
You can have a stick up your butt about my history if you like, but as you can see from the intelligent comments here, your position is starting to get lonely.
It must be hard to be pure, so pc, and that much better than the rest of us, good luck with that.
Great article. I especially liked this part:
“if we were really to buy into the idea that penises are the source of patriarchy, rather than socially constructed male privilege, aren’t we pretty much saying that patriarchy is a permanent fixture of human society?”
Never thought about it this way, but it’s true. I love it when my perspective is challenged. Thank you for writing this.
Wow. I spent the beginning of friday night with reading this article and, most of the time, this long discussion. and it’s a good thing to do on a friday night. or every other night – and daytime.
first, the article is good. there were some points i wondered before and have some answers to now, which got more detailled explained in some comments. so i see this as personal education.
and second, some parts of the discussion are just so much respectless to so many people. it hurts and there is also some kind of powerless anger coming up in me because of this nonrespect. for me as an ciswoman interested person in learning about how being a trans*person can be it is still a very clear way to realize how many topics there are that are so full of nonsense. this made some points of awareness even clearer to me. though i’m sad that there are so many deeply hurting comments.
It’s come to this…
As far as online spaces, LChat is nearly all that remains (for English speakers, anyway) for the unapologetic lesbian: http://alturl.com/u2myf
[this link has been adjusted by comment moderators]
> It’s come to this…
No it hasn’t. Autostraddle has been a space that supports the idea that a trans women who identifies as a lesbian are every bit as legitimate as a cis woman who identifies as a lesbian and it has supported that idea for a long time.
I’m not sure where you’ve gotten the idea that this is new, a change, or that views otherwise were ever well received here.
This space hasn’t changed.
That site seemed benign at first, but within ten minutes I realized exactly the level of hate and anger there. People calling trans women men, people making fun of AS commenter’s appearances, etc.
WARNING: BEYOND THIS LINK IS EXTREME RADICAL FEMINISM, TRANSMYSOGYNY, AND GENERAL CRAPPINESS!!
[this link has been removed by the comment moderators for the good of all womynkind]
so now radical feminist is a bad word. ha. this place is losing it.
Radfem is unfortunately getting misaligned with “Radscum”, or with TERF, which is Trans-exclusionary RadFem.
Basically a type of biologically eseentialist hate filled pseudo-feminist.
I’ve never been to comfortable with this whole thing because being radical = good.
Being Feminist = great (of course!)
The unfortunate conflation of the radscum and other such name calling ends up being far more divisive. :P
That’s fair. I guess I should have looked more deeply into it before using that specific term. Throughout these comments I’ve been pretty put off by the use of “radscum”, because it seems like using pejoratively like that lowers the conversation. I was aiming for a term like TERF, but I hadn’t heard of that before. In the future, I’ll use that instead.
No, the hate that’s become attached to it by some women is a bad word. Own that, and we might be able to talk, deny women the right to self identify, and I’ll leave it my cis sisters to try to deal with you.
I hope you can find some peace within the community, it seems like the RadFem position keeps getting smaller and smaller. I’m 57 and I’m pretty sure I’ll still be here when we’ll all think of it like eugenics, “The Lesbian Menace”, or the “S/M purge”, tragic, foolish periods in the women’s community’s herstory (as the majority of the women’s community seems to now).
Indeed. Interestingly enough, the comment policy for this site does not say “Do not link to L Chat.” Given the constant lesbophobia here, I guess I shouldn’t be surprised.
Perhaps ya’ll ought to update your comment policy to “We’re a bit of an echo chamber here, so please don’t comment unless it’s to agree with us.”
There is a policy against distributing hate speech, so since this is a safe space for people who don’t support discrimination and bigotry, we protect them from the shit people like you drag in here.
If you think Autostraddle is lesbophobic, there are plenty of other narrow-minded spaces for you on the internet. Feel free to pack up and leave this site to those of us who are more open and inclusive.
People like me? What, you mean a lesbian? I thought you ‘don’t support discrimination and bigotry?’ It’s odd how you claim to be ‘open and inclusive,’ but somehow imply that linking to a lesbian site on a site about ‘girl-on-girl culture’ is ‘distributing hate speech.’
You seem pretty insecure about lesbians posting opinions contrary to yours. I mean, I managed to make my point without resorting to coarse swearing, but I guess you can’t extend the same courtesy.
She didn’t critique you for being a lesbian she critiqued you for being a transphobe.
Excuse me? Read my posts above; I am not a transphobe, nor did I say anything transphobic. While I understand why you feel defensive, please take care where you hurl such accusations.
I saw the original link from the first commenter through an email version of the comment. At least now I know where all of the nastiness is coming from now, and that it actually genuinely is just hate dressed up as feminism. Why feminism for some people means hating other people based on their bodies (and making fun of their bodies, calling them ugly, fat, etc.) is completely beyond me. But at least I know what it is now.
I don’t think I have any more energy to respond to all the comments at this point, but thanks all of you for sticking up for body-loving feminism and for trans woman inclusion. <3
puppppiesssssss
So pleased to see that the link is gone now…it was upsetting.
I only wish it were replaced with kittens :)
me toooo…… kittens for the win!!!
wow, i think this whole thread sums up exactly what autostraddle is becoming.
removing comments on account of “hate speech”, a lesbian forum, really? (even if you don’t agree with all the content, really?)
being okay with people resorting to terms like radscum, radfem, etc.
when someone comments that there is lesbophobia around here (which i hate to admit, but i’m starting to see that here lately), instead of discussing it they get called a transphobe and told to leave on account of they don’t like bigotry around here? what the actual fuck.
i liked this article and i’m in agreement with a lot of this thread, but this place is becoming quite cult-ish.
Why is it not okay to use the abbreviation radfem for radical feminists? Radscum isn’t helpful, no, but radfem? Do you know what radical feminism is? Are you aware that the movement has historically been accused of transphobia (and I think that accusation has its basis in reality, for sure). I could link you some of the things that radical feminists tend to say about trans* people but you can go look in this thread.
The link to the forum was incredibly disgusting and insulted a lot of people PERSONALLY as well as being generally transphobic, biphobic, etc. I don’t even want to go into the really great people from AS who that thread tore apart because I don’t think that the posters on that forum deserve a greater audience.
And if someone thinks that a forum for queer women (not just lesbians!) is only for cis women who only want to sleep with cis women and everybody else should fuck off, then yeah, I think they should get out of here.
Removing comments on account of ‘hate speech’ should really happen wherever ‘hate speech’ occurs, because, you know, it’s ‘hate speech’
‘radscum’ is stupid, but echoing Marika, why is shortening radical feminist to radfem so bad?
Also being told you’re being ignorant of the issues amounts to ‘lesbophobia’? really? If you spout unfounded garbage expect responses telling you you’re wrong.
Actually, radical feminists themselves are the ones who came up with the phrase “radfem” as far as I know. At least, they all use that term themselves, so getting on us for using it the same as them is soo ridiculous.
Also, I notice you complain about that and “radscum” but, uh, you don’t complain about the fact there are people on this thread who have called us men, M2T (which is like male-to-nothing or male-to-inhuman or something like that), and even conflated trans women with serial killers.
I agree “radscum” is childish and offensive, but uh, ‘serial killers’ doesn’t bother you?? Get real.
First of all, I love Autostraddle. The fact that AS features articles and commentary written by so many on the LGBTQ spectrum is so absolutely amazing to me.
Thank you to Savannah for writing this and thank you to those who have engaged in a thoughtful discussion and analysis.
I don’t have much more to add than that. The comments were hard to get through (on multiple levels) but I’m glad I did.
Good article Savannah! Mirrors my (very positive) experiences dating queer, bi, straight and lesbian women. I have to say that almost all were wonderful people who took me as they found me and we enjoyed some really great times. We all have preferences; I used to be very attracted to women with red hair, but now I have settled down and I am in a permanent relationship with a Japanese woman, sometimes those preferences change because of experiences and life in general. I guess mostly I find strong, confident and intelligent women most attractive regardless, and they seem to like me, even though my bodily configuration is not straightforward.
Good lord, you all are killing me. I promised myself that I wouldn’t fall in love again for a while but after reading some of the smart, witty, hilarious responses to absolutely repugnant comments made by some folks who clearly didn’t come here to have constructive discussions I have to say, I am at least a little bit in love with at least a good half a dozen Autostraddlers. And now I’m even more excited for A-Camp.
Thank you Savannah, and all of the rest of you who were able to respond so well to the trolls.
CAMP is SOON!68 days! YAYS!
Omigod, I can’t wait to meet you <3
I won’t be speaking my mind in this thread since I believe trolling may also be bringing a debate where it wasn’t invited. I wonder, however, if the heading of the article was “feminine lesbian with female-born genitals seeks same”, the manifestations disagreeing with positions in the article would also be considered trolling, or quite the contrary, would sound “righteous” to the ears of a community who tries to cater to so many that it will eventually starve everyone.
Good point: you can’t include everybody without slowly killing yourself.
Exclusion is the key to survival!
Exclusion may be indeed the key to survival when you don’t have enough to share without harming your chances of visibility. Right now, I’d rather not share the little space I have even though I’m well aware there are overlapping sections and a few of our interests may be the same. I have a lot in common with feminist straight women and yet, when they start speaking for me, I know chances are I won’t be as happy with the outcome of their pleas as they are. We have to stop pretending to be sisters who must share everything. We’re still family, but distant cousins at best. It doesn’t mean we don’t like each other or understand our positions, but to each, her own.
Thank you so much to Savannah for writing this great and thought-provoking piece. I’m looking forward to the day when articles like this will get 400 thank-you-so-beautiful-we-love-you comments instead of the transphobic cesspool that decent beings have to wade through.
Looking at the ratio of positively affirmed responses to the hateful stuff, I think its been overwhelming supportive. Not pretty at times, but definitely made me feel better about the folks around here. :)
Wow. Okay.
I stumbled upon this article while trying to find out the difference between transgender and transsexual. I read through it and was utterly confused, then read through the comments and I think my brain shut down for a bit.
I was looking up definitions on definitions, talking to my friends, trying to paraphrase, and now I am 4000% more educated than I was before.
I didn’t know anything about trans-women or that “cis” was even like… A word. But now I see that there are so many interlocking forms of discrimination and oppression among people that, before, seemed to be all on the same side. I guess it’s that over-generalization.
I am an 18 year old straight man (assigned at birth, accepted).
Even though this article was not written for me, I thought you know why not throw an opinion in there?
I don’t know how I would feel if I was extremely attracted to a woman to find out that she had genitalia attributed to the male sex. I would honestly probably freak out, because, you know, I’m not too fond of anyone’s but my own.
I’d like to think that I could get over it, but you never know. There are some extremely attractive trans-women.
Great article, 10/10. I hope everything I said was okay to say… I know how easy ignorance can hurt someone.
(P.S. some of the comments from Savannah, Shelby, and Amy (to name a few) are incredibly well thought through and delivered. Great reads)
Glad you are open enough to this to learn stuff, and even more glad you did. I can still remember when all this gender stuff was all wibbly wobbly gendery bendery too.
No go forth, and spread what you have learned, but be warned, other dudes will probably roll their eyes at you or make some horrible accusations about your sexuality. :)
And you know, just by saying “Hey, maybe I could get over it, you never know.” is a hell of a lot. Really. You don’t have to. But the fact you know you might want to means something.
And no, it’s doesn’t mean you’re gay, just means you’re human.
And timey wimey?
I like you.
I’m a lesbian. I’m homosexual. HomoSEXual, not homogenderal! Because I’m into FEMALES, not MALES. Sorry about ur dick. Have a nice day :)
not all trans*, intersex, etc women have penis’ hence you can still be homosexual and date a trans*, intersex, etc woman. if your not attracted to penis’ then say exactly that, saying your not attracted to trans* women or intersex women is making a generalization…
I said I’m attracted to females. Take that as you will.
and by homosexual i mean homosexual in the sense your using it right now. e.g. homosexual in relation to a persons genitals
i probably should have worded that response differently cause you still wouldn’t really be hetero if you dated a pre op trans* woman or intersex person with a penis. genitals are only one part of a persons body and they aren’t the only sexual/erotic place. sorry, didn’t mean to inadvertently trample any trans* individuals homosexuality there…
Last time I checked, people who are biologically male and attracted to people who are biologically female were called hetero. But feel free to make up your own gender-based definitions by all means.
the meaning we attach to biology is just as socially constructed as gender itself. there are many features of a persons body that make up sex, sex is not just one thing. its a combo of various factors. so yea, your kinda wrong there. you may be attracted to people with the same genitals as you and thats cool. thats homosexuality, yes. but its not the only way, or sense that homosexuality can be expressed or exist.
also, being someone who has dated a trans* woman i can assure you, a trans* womans penis is not the same as a mans. and i mean seeing as a penis is an enlarged clit essentially, you can guess what happens to trans mens clit’s when they take T. there are trans men that can have erections and penetrative sex you know. shit gets bigger with t. so why are you excluding trans women only? why are trans men ok and not trans women? it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense honestly. being attracted to people wit same genitals as you is only one way, or one part of being gay/lesbian.
Look, if you are attracted to males – because “trans women” are male, no matter how they “identify” – you aren’t a lesbian. Lesbians are females who are attracted to females. Words have meanings.
wow so i’m not a lesbian now because one of the four women i’ve dated was trans*. i’m going to go have an existential crisis now….. lolrofllmaohahaha no. your comments have made me feel no feely feelish feelings of regret for having dated a trans* identified woman.
Obvious troll is obvious.
Thanks for writing this.
Sidenote, after poking through your blog I’m amazed you have time to write such awesome pieces while being a physicist. I’m about to enter grad school for physics and it’s nice to know there are more of us out there.
<3 for all my physicist queer sisters.
Can engineers come too?
Sure! <3
and mathematicians?
hmm mathematicians… let me think about it……
Just kidding, of course they’re included! <3
I have never, literally never, seen this argument leveled against gay men in regards to trans men. Not once have I ever seen a trans man accuse a gay man of being cissexist or transphobic because the gay man wouldn’t sleep with them due to lack of penis.
Telling lesbians that it’s not right for them to only want to have sex with someone with a vagina, and basically shaming them for that, is horrific. This is only an argument I’ve seen from trans women in regards to cis women. No one should have to be made to feel like they’re in the wrong for not wanting to have sex with someone with a penis. Having sex involves genitals one way or another, so preference of genitals is actually the only thing that counts in regards to sexual orientation and preference. Because sex is genitals. A million other things may come into play, but in the end, it is two people and their genitals connected in some way. Erasing this fact has only been done to lesbians, and it’s reprehensible.
Yes, exactly. This “cotton ceiling” nonsense is, as you said, horrific. It’s revolting that so many women – even “lesbians” support the idea that not having any interest in non-females is “bigoted” (are we also misandrists because we don’t want to sleep with cis men?). Sex is the basis of sexual orientation. And of course what we are sexually attracted to is somewhat socially caused (e.g. racist tropes contribute to fetishizing of women of certain ethnic backgrounds), but there is nothing wrong with not having any sexual interest in males. It is disgustingly lesbophobic to claim otherwise.
You are welcome to your philosophy of a ceiling limiting you.
The rest of us will be dancing on the floor above your fossilised ideals, with nothing but open skies over our heads.
Step one: Please read the article. It is clear you did not.
Step two: If you still think someone is trying to force you into having sex with someone you don’t want too, please read the above 400 comments where a bajillion other people were confused about this, and bajillion people explained to them this is not the case. It is clear you have not read the comments.
Step three: Realize that this is a commonly discussed issue amongst trans*men who identify as gay or queer.
Step four: Have a nice day.
Ok, I want to engage in good faith here. Also, I want to state that I may be coming from a place of (relative) privilege, as a heterosexual trans woman, so please call me out if I am speaking out of turn.
But seriously, do you think that *anybody* apart from a weird subset of straight, cis men who fetishize trans women, and a subset of lesbians who fetishize trans men*, is clamoring to have sex with or fall in love with trans people? Let me tell you, this is not the case. It isn’t as though straight people are particularly into us either, collectively speaking. Trans people, as a group, are considered to be pretty much fetish objects with little to no sexuality of our own, and are highly sexually stigmatized- we’re either entirely sexualized, or entirely desexualized, and pretty much always dehumanized, in our interactions with larger sexual communities. There needs to be a broader conversation around the stigmatization trans people’s sexuality, because while I’ve observed that the general seeds of this discussion concerned trans women in lesbian communities, I have to say that it’s something that cuts across the board. Generally, most people are sexually grossed out by trans people (and disturbed by our partners), and I think that this is something we need to unpack. As I, and countless others, have said upthread: it isn’t about forcing individual people to have sex with people they don’t want to, it’s about recognizing patterns in collective behavior, and interrogating the political underpinnings of those patterns. And this is something that I think everyone should do, male, female, straight, gay, cis, trans, and everybody else too. Because we *all* have internalized cissexism. Surely it’s radical feminism AND queer theory 101 to recognize that sexuality is socially constructed as well, and that our sexual choices don’t occur within a vacuum.
* I don’t want to stigmatize lesbians or other queer women who are into trans men. I mean, I’m into them too! But I have read some trans men complain that they feel fetishized/ objectified in women’s communities. Similarly, this is not a slam on straight men who are into trans women (hi!) but those creepy straight men who fetishize our genitals, or expect us to be extra “submissive” and “feminine”, and treat us like sex dolls rather than people.
“But seriously, do you think that *anybody* apart from a weird subset of straight, cis men who fetishize trans women, and a subset of lesbians who fetishize trans men*, is clamoring to have sex with or fall in love with trans people?”
Speaking as one hetero trans woman to another, this statement is dripping with self-loathing (and tunnel vision). I suggest speaking for yourself, and not for other people.
HI! Maybe I should start by saying that I have tremendous respect for you, Gina. You’re right, I was overgeneralizing in the comment. And I should note that I am only talking about my own experience, and also based on what I’ve read from books, blogs, the stories of my friends, etc. I shouldn’t be speaking for others, and I apologize for having done that.
What I meant to say (and hopefully I am communicating this more clearly now) is that most people– straight or gay– find trans people curious oddities at best, and disgusting freaks at worst. Speaking only from my own experience, straight cis men who like trans women who aren’t also already into feminist or queer politics tend to be creepy and fetishistic. I know this doesn’t have to be the case, and I hope that it will change in the future. Also, straight cis men of the world, please become more involved in feminist and queer politics! I was trying to point out to the original commenter that the problem of sexual stigmatization isn’t one that just haunts lesbian trans women, but trans people of all sexual orientations. And that this conversation we’re having, explosive as it is, is just a part of a much larger, much more uncomfortable one.
As for the self loathing, well. Unfortunately, that rings truer than I would like. But reading the positive comments on the site (and just the awesomeness of Autostraddle in general) helps.
I could point out that I have a vag. But a) I’m sure you would dismiss it as surgically constructed, ignoring all the cis women who have a similarly constructed vagina due to a whole host of medical conditions, and b) it’s actually totally irrelevant to my complete disinterest in having sex with you.
Like really, what possibly makes you imagine that I would have any interest in having sex with you? There is something really weird about this whole conversation. Like do you think I’m actually craving to get in your pants? You seriously think I’d want to have sex with anyone who was anything less than entirely comfortable with my body? I can hardly imagine anything less sexy than that.
I suggest using “Those freaky transsexuals huh? Totally gross,” as your pick up line in the future to avoid any accidental tragedies. For both our sakes.
Okay, so I can’t believe I’m stepping into this conversation 438 responses in, but I need to correct you on your last point (everyone else 1 billion posts before has corrected everything else).
Sex does not equal genitals. Full stop. Genitals can definitely be involved in sex, but sex does not absolutely have to involve them connecting in some way. I personally feel absolutely dysphoric about my penis and so don’t use it in any way during sex with my top and my top almost always has sex with me with absolutely all of her clothes on.
Sex – as in biology – has nothing at all to do with genitalia? I’m not talking about anyone’s sex life. I’m talking about whether one is male or female. If you have a penis (and are not intersex in any way)? You’re male. You may feel that you are a woman, but you are still biologically male.
First of all, if you had read my response all the way, you would have seen that I was talking about sex, in a having-sexytimes sort of way. As in, genitals do not have to be involved when two people are having sex.
Second, and this is the long and frustrating one, it’s really hard to argue that I’m biologically male. It’s basically impossible to define. I have a penis, yes, but if I get bottom surgery then I won’t. I’m hormonally female, but before I transitioned I was hormonally male. I can’t be sure of my sex chromosomes because I haven’t gotten them tested (and, in all likelihood, neither have you). I don’t know if my brain has typical female characteristics, but I also haven’t had my brain looked at (and again, probably neither have you.) All that leaves me with is that I have a deep intrinsic knowledge that I am female, regardless what my body looks like now or 10 years down the line.
1. I did read your comment. Hence why I specified that I was talking about biological sex, as opposed to sexytimes sex.
2. A castrated male is still a male. No matter how much you mutilate your body, you won’t become female.
3. It’s interesting that you claim to have an “intrinsic knowledge” that you are female. What does it mean to be female to you?
JFC, can we please stay away from language like “castrated” and “mutilated”? Like, ok, I get it, you disapprove of my choices and you don’t want me in your bathroom. Trust me, I wouldn’t want to run into you in there either. But can you at least have enough respect for my autonomy and agency to consider that the body I have fought for (both in the sense that I’ve fought to construct it in the form that I feel is most appropriate for me; and in the sense that I’ve fought to keep it from transphobic violence) to not say that it’s hopelessly ruined? I think my body is perfectly fine, and quite beautiful, thank you very much.
Let me relate to you a story about Filipino colonial history: when the Pigafetta described the “naked, painted savages” of the Philippine Islands, he made a point to describe the “mutilations” of the natives– their piercings, their scarifications, and most importantly, their tattoos– in order to titillate his readers, and to confirm to the Spanish Crown that it was necessary to colonize the Philippines, because its native inhabitants were such savages that they *mutilated* themselves. But what Pigafetta didn’t know (or perhaps didn’t care about) was that all these “mutilations” were simply expressions of a culture he didn’t understand– and that to the native, pre-colonial Filipinos, practices like corsetry would probably have looked a lot like mutilation, too. In the pre-colonial cultures (particularly the non-Muslim ones) tattoos in particular were badges of honor, that were awarded to the bravest warriors and the wisest priests and priestesses, telling of ancient myths and their victories in battle.
But when Pigafetta and Magellan (and later, other conquistadors and peninsulares) looked at these tattoos, they didn’t see the honor that these tattoos communicated. They could only think in terms of hierarchy, which justified their conquest over the tattooed, pierced, “mutilated” alien Others whose bodies they couldn’t understand, whose bodies they took to be the very sign of their own cultural superiority.
You can see this dynamic at play in a lot of contemporary writing– like Shiela Jeffreys– that claims that trans people are mutilating ourselves. Jeffreys even uses terms like “savage”, placing her even closer to the eurocentric, colonialist mindset of Pigafetta and the other conquistadors. But just because you can assign a meaning to my body, doesn’t mean that you can read my body or understand what it means to me. Like my ancestors, my body is a story of courage and wisdom and I WILL NOT allow it to be named as “mutilated” or “ruined” or “destroyed” by someone whose sense of self is so limited that I cannot differ from her in a meaningful way without also somehow ceasing to exist.
Yikes! Just “Pigafetta” not “the Pigafetta”, he was only one man.
All the muthafucking snaps!!!
This comment gave me ALL THE LIFE!
Yes, clearly radical feminists are the ones who have power over twanz ppl, good job identifying the power dynamics here. Gender abolitionists are exactly the same as colonizers. Very appropriate analogy.
Gina: I think you are oversimplifying my point.
I never said that radical feminists were the same as colonizers. I said that certain anti-trans ideas which frame trans bodies as mutilated in order to delegitimize trans subjects bear ideological similarities to the epistemic structures of early colonial discourse. This set of ideas includes *some* radical feminist writings, like Jeffreys, but politically conservative, patriarchal writings as well. I certainly don’t think all radical feminists are anti-trans. And I agree with the anti-trans ones on certain other points. My own feminism has been shaped quite substantially by radical feminism, particularly Audre Lorde, Gloria Anzaldua and Andrea Dworkin.
All I meant to say is that the recourse to a discourse of normative embodiment, which frames bodies in terms of compliance to a naturalized ideal, and which situates deviant bodies as “mutilated”, dispossessed of agency, and therefore illegitimate, is shared by both anti-trans discourse (again, in many forms) and colonial discourse. Also, incidentally, homophobic discourse.
I understand that we probably won’t agree on this. But it serves nobody to misrepresent my points, and then attack a set of strawman ideas that bear little similarity to my actual comment. Also, is it really very difficult to engage in respectful discourse?
I love all this comment. What a fantastic way to see the effects of colonization and weave it through a trans* relation to the supposed “nroms”. Nicely done. :)
I would have been inclined to disbelieve you, had I not seen a cis straight dude who said he’s ‘freaked out’ by trans women’s genitals / the thought of falling in love / being attracted to one end up getting praised for how enlightened he is and how much he’s trying not to be transphobic – while queer women who said the same thing were called ~scum~ / various misogynist slurs. I absolutely do not think we should take care to be nice / police to transphobic women / people who are oppressive in any way, but you can’t tell me there’s no double standard there.
I agree that terms like “radscum” are not appropriate and can derail the discussion almost as much as transphobia. However, few of the comments actually use such terms, and the the author herself asked that they not be used.
If you look more closely, the women who explained that, while they have complete respect for trans women’s identities, they are not interested in penises received responses validating their personal preferences and assuring them that no one has to be into something that they’re not. Yes, it’s unfortunate that there was some name-calling going on, but overall I think it is incredible how little there was (by trans women and allies I mean – there was plenty on the other side). In the face of extreme hatred, most people were still willing to engage in productive discussions. It is extremely difficult to keep your cool when your identity, or the identity of your friends, is under attack, but people have been doing an amazing job – much better than I could hope to. I’m horrified by the hatred on display in the comments, but very impressed by the autostraddle community as a whole.
You mean one person responded with a positive message to “straight dude” and they got one up vote?
Honestly, I find this comment totally disingenuous. If you were actually concerned about the discrepancy you would be calling the straight guy out on his transphobia. Or calling anyone out on their transphobia. At all.
Instead you’ve decided to focus on the imagined difference in treatment going on? Because expressing an honest, albeit poorly-worded, aversion to penises is totally the same as denying the identity of all trans people, and intentionally misportraying the intent of the original article.
Oh that and you decided to bash Julia Serrano in a totally tangential derailing.
Like no offense. But I’ll buy you’re an ally when you look like one.
I’m not sure how you could interpret pointing out how biased Julia Serano sometimes is as ‘bashing’? Or are we to descend into MRAs-style debate and start saying that telling somebody they’re promoting oppressive beliefs (in the most polite and non-inflammatory way possible? my purpose was never to insult or attack Serano personally, just to criticise her texts, because I don’t have anything against her personally – I don’t want to insult or bash her – but do call me out if you feel like I’m making a personal attack on her) is harassment and just pretty much just the WORST kind of oppression?
Cis straight men’s aversion to penises is always perfectly ‘honest’ and we should always forgive them for it because the poor dears cannot help it – they don’t have to ‘re-examine’ their sexual preferences if they don’t see trans women as valid sexual partners – unlike queer women, who deny trans women their identity when they don’t see them as potential sexual partners and whose aversion to penises is indicative of their transphobia, and as such it’s never ‘honest’, but very very dishonest – I mean, I have heard so many people clearly and repeatedly say that they think queer women are dishonest when they say they’re averse to penises – that this aversion is a blatant lie, just a disguise for their transphobia. This argument has been made a million times before – people automatically respect cis straight men’s sexual preferences while they think women can ‘overcome’ their aversions and change their preferences – and, no, I can’t react to this just by challenging cis straight men’s transphobia because the double standard between how much respect we have for men’s and women’s sexual choices itself is problematic and something we should examine. It falls within this way of thinking of ‘unlike men, women don’t *really* know what their sexual preferences are so it’s okay to coerce them into sex’ – this rhetoric harms all women, but it’s especially harmful to trans women (because they have a much higher risk of encountering sexual violence, including ‘corrective rape’) – why does this keep being promoted in the name of protecting trans women? I just don’t understand? It’s a really not okay attitude to be promoting and I don’t see how it (just like Serano’s attempts to show that cis men are oppressed by sexism) is in any way necessary or helpful?
The thread already has hundreds of comments, we all stopped derailing a very long time ago?
I don’t actually see a double standard happening in this thread or in general. All the women who have posted an aversion to penises have been supported in their preference. Including myself. For the record.
On the other hand, the women who have been treating trans folk like shit have received a somewhat different reaction obviously. If you can’t see the difference then that’s willful blindness.
Also, for like the umpteenth time, assuming all trans women have penises is seriously fucked up. And, ya, using that dishonest representation of our bodies as a disguise for transphobia is pretty shitty. And has been going on throughout this thread.
As to pointing out Julia Serrano’s bullshit, go for it. But when the ONLY posts you choose to make in this thread are against Serrano and in support of a supposed double standard that actually hasn’t been perpetrated in this thread? When there is openly transphobic speech happening all over the place?
Ya, you don’t give me the fuzzy wuzzies there. Or make me believe that you actually care much about trans folk.
Andreea,
The claim that transpohobia from cis men or professed aversion to penis from cis men is not or has not been questioned is utterly false. As the author of the above article, I have very publicly called out cis men (and trans men too!!) on this very issue:
http://leftytgirl.wordpress.com/2012/09/18/on-the-disclosure-myth-and-the-cissexist-imagination/
In fact, I consider this piece that I linked one of my most pieces of writing, as it is specifically about challenging the so-called “trans panic” legal defense, i.e. the idea that when a cis man realizes he is dating a trans woman that he “can’t help himself” but throw himself into a blind fit of rage and attack her.
It is utterly false, utterly victim-blaming and entirely to be rejected.
And it is also false to claim that a non-op or pre-op trans woman is lying or disingenuous if she doesn’t announce her genital status to the world any time she goes on a date (with whoever).
I don’t agree with Serrano on some points btw. But to claim that cis women are being challenged on these issues by trans feminists while cis men are not– nope, false claim.
I don’t think it should come as a surprise that people generally seem to have decided that spending time having discussions with other women was more important than dissecting and deconstructing the issues of a straight guy in a space for girls who like girls.
If you have to add “cis” to “lesbians” for your comment to make sense, it’s a cissexist (bigoted) remark. News flash: trans women are also women, hence some are lesbians. Woah.
When I first started dating my girlfriend I had no idea about her history
and when I found out I was open and honest about my uncertainty about our having the ability to be sexual in a way that was healthy for both of us. I stopped seeing her for a bit and was able to process things and I realized I missed her, a lot. I realized how wonderful she is and how I was really closing myself off to something great by not addressing my discomfort and working through it. I have come to know and love the compassionate, loving, intelligent and sexy person that she is. I’m not saying this is true for everybody but I really, really happen to believe that once you drop your neuroses and preconceived notions that’s when you open yourself up to a whole realm of possibility, and that applies to everything in life. Love comes from the heart, not the mind. And as for the sex thing..well that worked out. : )
It just occurred to me Ilene Chaiken may have tried to address this issue when she introduced Lisa, the lesbian-identified man, in the original The L Word, and tried to pair him with the only bisexual woman in the group, who happened to like his boy parts, which he didn’t like himself, at least in sex. I wonder how Lisa’s gender would be seen here, since most of you seem to believe that gender is a society cronstruction.
I’m just going to jump in with my two cents…
Women are women. Period. End of story. All women deserve the same respect.
Not sure why this is such a difficult concept. Leave the genitalia out of the discussion until and unless things seem like they’re going to progress into something sexual, and then have a serious, adult conversation. The same one you should be having about STDs and safe sex anyway.
I know, seems like such a silly, simple concept to just respect each other’s identities.
Anyhow, those were my two cents.
I wasn’t aware of just how ignorant i am about trans women, till this article. don’t get me wrong i knew i was clueless but just HOW clueless! is rather astounding.
so i want to say thank you to the writer, and the commentators, especially all the hate inspired, venom filled comments (like seriously you guys; everything i never want to be)
my favorite teacher used to say if you leave my class without a single question on your mind then i have failed you. i would wager he would give you an A+ for the mindfuckery you have wrought upon my poor brain.
i have a lot to do to educate myself further, and i am assuming the suicidal tendencies caused by some of these moronic comments is a permanent condition associated with reading about trans issues. i have no idea how you beautiful people respond so calmly and logically, i on the other hand have wished the bites of a thousand flees to the vaginas of some people.
I am also amazed at the calm and logical, but unapologetic responses. As someone from an earlier generation (i might be in my thirties but no one has used my given name since the 90s) I tend to think of people like me as being either vocal, fight the system folks who are very angry and strong, but not very articulate…or quiet, calm folks who just don’t want to bother anyone.
Seeing so many calm but determined responses makes me think those categories are very, very dated. It also makes me feel like a relic from a bygone era.
Latetotheparty, if you feel that reading this discussion has opened your mind a bit I suggest you keep reading and learn more. As a botanist I have found that the amazing diversity that exists in humans is just as beautiful and amazing as the diversity that exists in all other species. Life is pretty awe inspiring. ^_^
Oh and you sure had an amazing teacher.
Aww, you’re not an outdated relic. Also those categories definitely still seem relevant, I’m unfortunately catching a little flak from the responses of a different trans* person. Friend groups overlapping means I constantly have to be an apologist for her behaviour and it is really starting to piss me off.
Also just because people can keep composure doesn’t mean there isn’t the rage of a billion thunderstorms behind it.
Also would like to thank Savannah and the other commenters for their incredible patience and willingness to discuss the issues that have arisen here.
As a white cis female I have been called out over my use of language and the preconceptions I’ve held on numerous occasions..and it’s painful. It is painful to admit to internalised racism or transphobia, to admit that you are not immune to the very views and prejudices you despise. I am so so grateful to those people who have called me out and been willing to have a dialogue with me. Sometimes you cannot see your own behaviour, or hear your own language, because privilege is so deeply rooted and internalised. Only when you realise how deep your own prejudices go can you begin to change them.
Thank you Autostraddle for being an inclusive and open space!
[Cissexist comment conflating trans women with serial killers deleted]
“It’s not like women got to vote on it.”
Once I was told that I had to get every girl I went to school with to sign a petition if I wanted to use a bathroom. If I lacked even one signature…for any reason…no more access to education for me.
My friends in school were horrified by how I was treated. My best friend tried to laugh it off by saying, “You’d be the one to scream if anyone walked in on you in a bathroom.” In the years since people react with disbelief that anyone could ever treat me that way.
I would try to argue against your other points…but too much of my childhood was spent contemplating suicide so I could avoid growing up and becoming one of the evil men you seem to fear so much. The reality is trans people are much much more likely to be the victims of violence, rather than the perpetrator.
You might not realize how much damage your words can cause, but how would you react if a friend’s child committed suicide because they feared that puberty would make them into the monster you described?
Ugh Emma your situation sounds horrific. I’m glad you made it through.
Out of curiosity, do you make it a habit of asking up front, in daily conversation when you meet someone what their chromosomal makeup and/or current physical appearance of their genitalia are?
I have many friends and coworkers whom no one would know were not born of the “gender” they are unless explicitly told. That goes for both female and male.
Perhaps you should stop convincing yourself that you’d somehow be able to tell just by looking at someone.
Anyone else care to back me up on this?
Well who ever thinks they can spot a trans* woman in a crowd can try to guess:
1. http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m28rk756lH1rtrxuao1_500.jpg
2. http://25.media.tumblr.com/f2fdc3730dc135d15d70e2cc651e956b/tumblr_midtdyYvc31qgezyvo1_500.jpg
3. http://24.media.tumblr.com/5a4eca0ef7b1b4b8d11c64abefd9cd9e/tumblr_menrmeYJTe1rpkenpo1_500.jpg
4. http://24.media.tumblr.com/d965eb38ef04ae49fb0098a9a927c759/tumblr_mhyv83UQzy1qlibcto3_500.jpg
Hard, isn’t it? Even impossible? Hmmmmmmmmmmmm…
I don’t like this game. It kinda feels like I’m watching Jerry Springer.
Yeah, I thought for a pretty long time if I should actually post this or not. But as I am not outing anybody and as so many jumped on your statement that nobody can or should assume anything, I kinda went with it.
As for me: I know for sure that I can not tell. Even if the person in question poses next to Andrej Pejic where one might expect some gender bending or something. I learned about her being trans* via tags at tumblr.
That made me thinking of how much “passing” (or: invisibility) is also caused by cis privilege. Is it not only her face but also part of my own cissexism that I just assume because I am cis, everybody must be as well (even if I should know better)? I mean, I can spot (some) people from Russia (where I lived as a child), my German friends can’t. I can spot (some) queer women, my straight friends can’t. As I pay attention to certain details that my friends are not aware of.
I’m not sure where I am going with this. It is just a random thought. And totally off topic. Sorry.
Yeah, I get your point. But here’s the thing: keep in mind that vast majority of these genital-essentialist radfem types are too ignorant and steeped in their prejudices to even truly understand half the questions we ask them. And as a result of that, for the most part I’m not arguing with them to convince them of anything, because I am cognizant of the reality that they probably aren’t capable of learning new ideas.
I mean, they think they can always tell trans women (what they dehumanizingly refer to as ‘M2T’) from cis women. Of course, they could have met a trans women last week (or even had sex with one) and never known the difference. But their prejudices prevent them from even allowing themselves to process that thought, and hence they’re prejudice is self-fulfilling: of course they can tell all trans women and cis women apart, because any trans woman they meet that their brain processes as cis was always cis and could only be cis anyways. (And would most trans women feel comfortable informing them otherwise? Probably not.)
So in that spirit, I would say: it’s not worth arguing with them at the moment where we have to actually point to real world trans women in this way just to make the point. Because the pathologizing of trans women’s bodies and finger-pointing that’s built-in to in to such ‘games’ is more harmful than any benefit that could come out of the almost-certainly pointless argument with the radfem in the first place.
I’m not trying to jump on you and I’m not asking you to apologize. I’m just trying to relate that it’s not worth getting so invested in the debating points that we allow ourselves to get sucked down to the crude mentality of our opponents in the argument.
> It’s not like women got to vote on it.
Actually the existing legal and social system we have in place requires that trans people get certain people to sign off on our decisions about our bodies. I’m sure it will please you to know that as it happens, every person who signed my documents was a woman.
So, women did in fact get to vote about my body and they voted yes. Happy? Or are you just saying that you want my personal body autonomy and my identity to be subject to *your* particular vote?
Now I personally believe that people’s bodies and identities aren’t and shouldn’t be up for a vote, but if you can’t agree on that one, I guess you can take comfort in knowing that women did get to do the voting.
OK, I’ll keep this short since it isn’t really relevant to this article, but I googled both names. Thomas Benson is not a trans woman, so I won’t bother discussing him. As for Paula Witherspoon – yes, she is a convicted sex offender, what’s your point? There are also cis female sex offenders. There are cis women who commit rape. Should they not be allowed to use the ladies’ room? Not all women are good people, and this has nothing to do with the validity of their identities – you are making a fallacious argument.
If a trans woman commits a crime worthy of a prison sentence she should be sent to a women’s prison. Trans women sent to men’s prisons suffer staggering rates of rape and other abuse at the hands of men. See link below:
http://www.edgeboston.com/news/national/features//135458/doj_standards_protect_transgender_inmates_from_rape_and_abuse
So how many of you women who love this article so much are dating/fucking trans women? Or is that just for the lesbians?
Actually I married one, and would date others in addition to my wife if the opportunity arose, and I believe, if you look, several cis community members with trans partners or spouse shave spoken up here to say the same.
My girlfriend is trans, and I love her very much. I identify as a lesbian and as queer (I don’t see the two as mutually exclusive, which some people here seem to have implied…)
I’m not sure what you’re trying to ask with that comment.
Probably a veiled attempt to create a justification to say something along the lines of “SEE! When pressed even you people would hate to be actually exposed to something as turbo-icky as a REAL ™Trans* women.
Of course there are at least a half dozen or more partner of trans* folks already in this post. BUT THAT CHANGES NOTHING! :)
That’s two.
Time for all you others to step up!! Come on, now! There’s plenty of lonely transwomen on OKCupid waiting for a date! Hilary, surely you can find the opportunity you say you lack. It is incumbent upon to overcome you’re transphobia and engage in that active search you’ve been avoiding.
Go find ya’ll a transwoman to love! Any hesitance to do so must, simply *must*, be a symptom of your transphobia coming to the fore.
In a committed monogamous relationship? You simply must try polyamory with a transwoman! Unwilling to do so? Transphobia!
Asexual? Transphobia!!!
Taking a break from dating? Transphobia!!
Straight? Transphobia!!
Single mom with no time for dating? Transphobia!!
In fact, I can’t think of one, single legitimate reason for not running out and fucking a tranwoman today! Get on it ladies (of all genders)!!
Hi Shawn,
Just wanted to say thanks for this comment. It’s reassuring to know that our arguments are strong enough that it requires a pretty childish misrepresentation of our position in order for you to criticize them.
Good luck, Sav.
you seem to have very strong feelings and very poor reading comprehension. No one is saying that you are required to date trans women. All we are saying is
1) trans women are women.
2) not all trans women have penises
3)trans women just look like women, with variation in bodily characteristics styles and ways of being in the world.
As such, its hard to believe it when someone says I will not date/am not attracted trans women. How can you tell? The implication that trans women are some special unique thing that you find icky is what people are objecting to and calling transphobic.
Thanks for writing this wonderful article, Savannah. And thanks to all the commenters who responded to hateful words with such patience, grace, and intelligence. Looking forward to A Camp.
I myself fall into the category of lesbians who do not want to have sex with anyone with a penis, regardless of gender – but I still consider trans women to be women. But I just have one question – since we’ve established that you can accept trans women as women but still choose not to have sexual relationships with them, what exactly are you asking us to examine? Is there anything to examine if I feel this way? It’s a personal preference, even if I think about it forever I’m still not going to magically be ok with being intimate with someone who still physically has the body of a male. I’m sure that some people are transphobic and that affects who they have relationships with – but what if they’re not transphobic? As another example, what if someone wasn’t racist but wasn’t personally attracted to people of certain races? I personally wouldn’t think that if someone had a particular preference then they would automatically be racist/transphobic.
Second point: Earlier on this post people mentioned asking possible partners what genitalia they have – that seems a bit ridiculous. Trans people are quite a small percentage of the population so yeah because it’s the norm, I do assume that if I’m talking to someone who presents as female then they have female genitalia. I’m guessing it might be difficult but if you are trans then surely it’s kind of your responsibility to let that person know before you’re in a sexual situation. Why should I have to point out to every possible woman I’m interested in that I’m not ok with penises (when the odds are that most of those women won’t be transgendered)?
I have a few trans friends and they have never asked me to examine my preferences – they accept that I don’t want to sleep with them and because I don’t want to sleep with them, they don’t want to sleep with me. Simple. I also have a trans female friend who completely has no interest in being with trans men (she only dates cis men) despite being straight – is she transphobic too?
Not going to attempt to address all of your points since so much of it has already been addressed in this massive comment thread, but regarding your first point, in case you didn’t get it from reading the article itself, my post was primarily directed at cis women who are knowingly attracted to trans women or at least open to the possibility.
Also, not dating someone of a particular race simply because of their racial background is in fact totally racist. It’s not the same as discriminating on the basis of genitalia at all: genitalia is a sexual trait, it’s reasonable that people have a right to discriminate on that basis in choosing a sex partner. Skin color/racial background is not a sexual characteristic, it has nothing to do with sex. So yeah, that is racist.
“genitalia is a sexual trait, it’s reasonable that people have a right to discriminate on that basis in choosing a sex partner.”
We agree on that.
And I think these kind of posts are absolutely fine until it turns into lesbians being asked to examine their own peferences. If that didn’t come into it then i’d have no issue with posts like this.
And I wouldn’t say that example is racism – it’s about how you want people to physically look if you’re going to be with them. For example I myself am not very attracted to white women but that doesn’t mean I think they’re not people or don’t respect them as women or something.
I think that last paragraph you wrote about being racist if you aren’t attracted to a certain race is the stupidest thing I’ve heard all day. Things aren’t that simple. I’m not attracted to black people, and I never have been, yet I’m half black. I have many black friends and a lot of black family. So you’re saying I’m racist against myself? I find lighter skin attractive, so what? I still consider all races equal even if I don’t want to date someone of a certain race. That’s as stupid as saying ‘lesbians don’t like boys so they must be sexist.’
If you’re talking with a woman in a context where you’re about to sleep with her, you’re hopefully gonna also be talking about safe sex, what you do and don’t like in bed…odds are that it’s going to come up in that conversation.
It’s not the responsibility of a trans* woman to announce what her genitals look like, any more than it’s the responsibility of a cis woman to do the same. An honest conversation between two adults having consensual sex should make is reasonably straightforward.
Do you seriously think everyone even has that conversation (about safe sex/what they like in bed) before they sleep with someone? Because the reality is that very often they don’t!
And how would one night stands fit into this?
Of course it’s their responsibility! I am assuming that they’re cis because most of the population is cis. If you aren’t the norm then yeah very often you have to say that or you are misleading someone – just like I have to say I’m gay because it’s not the norm.
Too few people do have that conversation…honestly, if more people did, a lot of “problems” would be far less problematic. Even for a one-night stand, you owe it to yourself and your partner to talk enough to know that you’re both comfortable with what is happening, and doing it as safely as you can/want to.
See, you said that SO much simpler than me. Nice! BLERG I ramble!
“Even for a one-night stand, you owe it to yourself and your partner to talk enough to know that you’re both comfortable with what is happening, and doing it as safely as you can/want to”
1. If the one night stand was a drunken one night stand – which happens often – I doubt most people would have a serious discussion beforehand.
2. Of course if I’m with someone we talk about these things but it’s usually during sex not before. If I get naked with someone and then suddenly she has a penis then yeah I’m going to be a little freaked out since I do think this is information that she should’ve told me before!
The point is that people rarely set out a specific conversation to talk about these things, especially when you’re young (I’m 22). In my experience things like what someone’s comfortable with sexually usually get talked about during sex, not before. That usually works out fine.
Obviously if she has a penis then that’s something she should probably tell me before we’re in that situation. A woman having a penis is a little different to talking about safe sex or talking about what someone likes in bed because those things can be talked about in the moment.
Your expectations are unreasonable. A trans woman does not have more responsibility to disclose her bodily configuration than you do to disclose your sexual hang-up about people’s bodily configuration, regardless of whether people with such hang ups are more common than trans people.
I half agree here. NO really, I do. As stated above, I think that everyone should really be on the same page when it comes to sex (no pun intended).
You state you have to tell folks you’re gay, but whats interesting is basing it on an assumed majority. Say you meet a woman at a lesbian bar. You don’t feel like you should have to say you are a Lesbian, because well, duh, you and her are hitting it off so that’s pretty darn obvious everyone’s on the same team, and fun. :)
However, should things get to the point of “Hey, you want to get out of here…” you, being a trans* woman who has a penis, need to explain that to this other women. Again, I don’t like the whole “Its YOUR responsibility!” but I can’t disagree with it. Because of the two people here, one is within the invisible “norm” of a cis-gendered lesbian, and one isn’t. That’s a fact, not one that has to stay etched in stone and hopefully it will eventually shift but that is, as you stated, the way things still are right now.
So you tell this other woman you are packing a penis of the non-detachable variety and things either go Who cares?, Yay, or Uh no! Both are valid. Completely.
Hopefully you don’t get the bonus round of “OH HOLY GOD BURN IT WITH FIRE.” (This rarely happens, we are talking about Lesbians here so it’s generally a wonderful group of people.
I know in this scenario it would be me as a TRans* person who is going to be inhabiting a position of an assumption of a different body design to your assumption of my having a vagina.
However what I think the take away here is that if you frowned or got pissed because your expected fun times aren’t happening, and treated it as just a Damn we are NOT compatible, thats cool. Well it makes for a bad evening for both of us, but think how bad it would be if we HAD gone back to someones house and THEN had the conversation. Ugh.
If it’s just “Crud we are not compatible” not damn I was lied to and you are a GUY, it’s Cool.
Oh, and me, as the trans* person? I personally would be “Oh, well crud, but that’s cool that you have a different sexual preference.” Hopefully we could at least be cordial.
Trying to head this off immediately upon meeting someone by disclosing with a statement like “WAIT! Take that drink back! There is a biological penis nearby and I need to brief you on it’s current attachments!” (Which yeah, is probably how I would handle it because well, that’s me.) can be offputting but it’s better than trying to deal with it during later sexy times when it becomes *Surprise Genitals!*
Is it fair to expect the trans* person to have to constantly tell people about their junk? No, that sucks really. But it’s not fair either to expect you, as a cis person who was expecting a vagina, to suddenly be ok with this change of the evenings menu. And since only one person is *knowingly*
operating within an assumption of preference, that person should communicate things. I personally hope that it can be a fair, calm and decent discussion.
“Is it fair to expect the trans* person to have to constantly tell people about their junk? No, that sucks really. But it’s not fair either to expect you, as a cis person who was expecting a vagina, to suddenly be ok with this change of the evenings menu. And since only one person is *knowingly* operating within an assumption of preference, that person should communicate things”
That’s my point. I’m sure it’s difficult for trans people but they still should tell the other person because then no time will be wasted if somebody isn’t interested. I wouldn’t say someone is lying if they don’t tell the other person, but they are withholding information and they are being a little deceitful. If they care about the other person being comfortable then surely they would let them know beforehand.
What I meant by comparing it to being a lesbian is that I have to come out as a lesbian – straight people don’t have to declare their sexuality because they’re the norm. The same with cis and trans – trans people have to come out to prospective partners because they’re not the norm. You’d only really question someone if you suspected they weren’t the norm – like the way people ask ‘are you gay?’ not ‘are you straight?’
Hi Shelby, I wanted to draw your attention up thread to another conversation with Amy in which I commented on some of these issues related to trans disclosure. I think it is a very important (and, unfortunately, easy to over-simpify) conversation:
http://develop.autostraddle.com/getting-with-girls-like-us-a-radical-guide-to-dating-trans-women-for-cis-women-160269/#comment-299707
Hi Shelby, I’d like to draw your attention to another conversation up thread where I also discussed the issue of disclosure with Amy. I’m drawing your attention there just because I think it is an extremely important issue that deserves a good deal of nuance. Also I thought you might also have something to contribute there.
(btw- I tried to leave a similar comment earlier with a direct link to those comments, but it seems to have been blocked by the comment filter)
“since we’ve established that you can accept trans women as women but still choose not to have sexual relationships with them”
I don’t think that was established actually. I’m pretty sure what was established was you can accept trans women as women, and not want to sleep with penis-equipped folks. It would be awesome if people would stop assuming that all trans women have penises, cause that is kind of transphobic. (And particularly weird from my own privileged perspective, given I live in a country with publicly-funded SRS and I’ve met very few non-op girls.)
As to what they want us to consider? I think it’s just that if you find yourself really attracted to a girl who has a penis, maybe you should reevaluate how strong that preference really is? Whether it’s maybe partly a social hang up? I dunno, some people’s sexuality has more flex I guess.
Also, pretty much any non/pre-op trans woman is going to inform you of their genital status pretty quick, if we’re being realistic here. It’s not actually safe for those of us in that situation to get too intimate/alone with folks before disclosing. A lot of us end up getting hurt or killed that way.
“As to what they want us to consider? I think it’s just that if you find yourself really attracted to a girl who has a penis, maybe you should reevaluate how strong that preference really is? Whether it’s maybe partly a social hang up? I dunno, some people’s sexuality has more flex I guess.”
I do agree that some people’s sexuality is more flexible. But even if I do like a trans woman I have every right to say actually I’m not going to date her because she has a penis and I don’t want to be in a sexual situation like that. I suppose it’s different if you are fine with penises and fine with that kind of sex. I have no issue with other people dating trans women, I just don’t want to myself.
And regardless of what the reason is for it – whether it is a social hang up or not – I’m still 100% able to make that choice. Just like if a trans person didn’t want to be with a cis person or if they ONLY wanted to be with cis people – that’s 100% their choice.
Obviously it’s still your choice. That’s really not the point. The idea is more that you might miss out on something because you just go with an assumption of “I’m not okay with this” rather than thinking it through. Personally, I think I like vaginas too much to ever be in a relationship with someone who didn’t have one / wouldn’t let me touch it.
I’m not sure what to make of you talking about penises and not liking them, but then saying you wouldn’t date any trans woman. I’m trans, I don’t have a penis. None of my friends who are trans have penises. I mean… sure, date whoever you like. No worries. But saying you have an issue with penises doesn’t actually explain why you object to dating trans women.
Perhaps, giving her the benefit of the doubt, she’s considering post-op women as no longer being trans?
Just a thought, since she did explicitly state that she considers trans women to be women.
And I can very well understand the position of not wanting to have sex with someone who has a penis (i.e., cis or post-op is just fine, pre-op, no thank you), whilst still being completely accepting of pre-op trans women as women (otherwise I’d kinda be undermining myself, too). For that matter, I can’t even conceive of having enjoyable sex with anyone as long as this growth is there on myself.
And sex isn’t eating – it’s nice if you enjoy what you eat, but it’s not necessary to do enjoy it, but you have to eat to live, whereas sex kinda *has* to be enjoyable for it to be worth anything (at least, sex that isn’t exclusively for procreation), and you don’t *need* to have sex to stay alive.
Agree with everything.
And yeah I was only talking about pre-op trans women – I personally wouldn’t have any issue with being with a post-op trans woman (although I know that some people would have an issue and I do think ‘I’m not okay with this’ is an absolutely valid reason to not date/have sex with someone – it is not oppressive to choose who you want to have sex with and although the preference MAY come from transphobia, having the actual preference isn’t transphobia)
And how exactly do you imagine this choosing is going to happen? I suppose now you’re going to tell me that I have a responsibility to disclose my history before sexual contact, because some folks might find it icky.
“I have a responsibility to disclose my history before sexual contact, because some folks might find it icky.”
I don’t think it’s your responsibility if it’s your history and you’ve had gender reassignment surgery (so if you’re post-op). But if you haven’t had that then yeah I think it is your responsibility because you know that you may be putting them into a situation that they’re uncomfortable with because you know they’ve made assumptions about your body based on the way you present and you haven’t corrected them.
Actually, I think I’m with Amy here on this. Assuming for whatever reason that my response isn’t along the lines of ‘sorry I’m not interested right now’, then yeah, I’d definitely feel it necessary to say, ‘oh by the way…’ before we get too far along.
I think it’s simply a question of respecting the other person. She’s expecting/assuming that I have a certain configuration, this is also the default assumption I make of what she’s thinking. So if I’m aware of something that might make a big difference, then yeah, it’s my responsibility to tell her. It’s like, you go to a restaurant and order vanilla cheesecake, if they bring you mango ice cream instead you’ll of course have some issue with it, hey, this isn’t what I ordered. But if the server says, sorry we’re out of that, would you like mango ice cream instead, then it’s a different matter and then you can decide if you want that or not.
I know that’s kinda a silly analogy, and I’m sure some other trans women don’t feel the same way, but that’s my take on the question, yes, it *is* our responsibility to say something, *iff* we’re still pre-op, because yeah, non-standard parts and all.
I’m post-op. And the point was, how will someone’s preference for cis people express itself when there is no reasonable way to tell the difference? They won’t be able to make that choice if I don’t inform.
“They won’t be able to make that choice if I don’t inform.”
The respectful thing to do is to inform.
Then I guess I don’t have much respect for that particular preference. I don’t feel like a casual partner has a right to any information beyond anything that impinges on their own health and well-being. That piece of my medical history is no more relevant to the situation than my eye surgery.
Your also making an assumption that it’s so easy for me to inform. I’m stealth, and your asking me to risk telling someone who may or may not respect my privacy. That just isn’t going to happen. And being out as gay is nothing like being out as trans. Imagine being out 45 years ago, that’s what it’s like for us now.
Personally, I have pretty intense trust issues with my body, so I don’t do casual sex and I don’t sleep with people who don’t know my history. But I have friends who do the casual sex thing. They don’t disclose. And I don’t think they have any obligation to.
The potential cost for us is far higher in order to cater to the squeamishness of the occasional person who it totally does not affect in any real way.
A lot of cis folks look at this situation in a vacuum without any real understanding of the stakes or stress on our side. Unless you are close enough to me to inform you of my history of self-harm and suicide attempts, you aren’t close enough to me to inform about my trans status. It’s private. And short of a serious relationship, none of your business.
^^ yup.
“Your also making an assumption that it’s so easy for me to inform. I’m stealth, and your asking me to risk telling someone who may or may not respect my privacy. That just isn’t going to happen. And being out as gay is nothing like being out as trans. Imagine being out 45 years ago, that’s what it’s like for us now.”
Sarah, that is such an important point. It can’t be stated often enough of how much of a higher risk trans* women are, especially those who are also women of color, for violence and murder. Just pick up the statistics and read! So how can anyone in their right mind expect trans* women to out themselves to people they don’t know well enough when being out comes with high costs? It’s totally reasonable to wait and see if they like the person in question well enough and if the said person seems trustworthy to them before they make themselves incredibly vulnerable.
Yeah, I should’ve clarified that in all my comments I’ve been referring to pre-op trans women – anyone who physically still has the body of a male.
“The idea is more that you might miss out on something because you just go with an assumption of “I’m not okay with this” rather than thinking it through.”
I really doubt I am missing out on anything, but even if I am then it’s really up to me if I want to miss out on it. I have EVERY right to actually say ‘I’m not okay with this’ – that IS an ok reason to not be with someone! You might not like it, but it is an ok reason. People can choose to think it through if they want but there’s no obligation to.
I don’t really have any idea what your point is. Obviously you aren’t under any obligation. But are trans women not even supposed to ask for risk of offending? Are you trying to say your experience is universal, and that there is no point in asking at all because nobody will ever change their minds?
What if one of your supposed trans friends fell for you, and asked whether you’d reconsider your position? Would that be such a terrible thing for them to say? I am totally confused by what you are objecting to. There are no expectations behind the request. It’s just an honest request.
Nobody is trying to label you as transphobic for not liking dick. Or least they shouldn’t be.
Finally, I am still trans despite having had my genitals re-purposed. And that wasn’t just an issue of clarification. That was part of a longstanding tradition of labeling trans people’s bodies against their will. Which you are participating in by declaring non-op/pre-op trans women as “still having the body of a male.”
So, no you aren’t transphobic for your preferences. You kind of are for your use of language though. Which I hope you accept is an “ok reason” to not be interested in you.
“What if one of your supposed trans friends fell for you, and asked whether you’d reconsider your position? Would that be such a terrible thing for them to say?”
I would say no to any of my pre-op trans women friends. It’s not a terrible thing for them to say but I don’t want to be in sexual situations with someone with a ‘male’ body. And if one of my friends said that I should look at why I have that preference only for a female body, then I probably wouldn’t be friends with them anymore. It’s patronizing to tell someone that they don’t know their own mind or don’t know who they’re truly attracted to. I’ve had enough of that during my life.
“Which I hope you accept is an “ok reason” to not be interested in you.”
It’s a free world.
You’re right, it’s a free world and some folks choose to treat others like dirt because they can. Thanks for the reminder of why I’m stealth.
I really don’t understand what part of that you took as me treating you like dirt? but ok.
I told you that calling non-ops male was a crappy thing to do, and you went ahead and did it again. Deliberately. With emphasis.
Oh ok, I apologise for that. What would be the best way to refer to pre-op trans women’s bodies? (I always thought saying ‘male bodied’ was fine because it referred to biological sex and not gender but if it’s not then I’d like to know how to say it in a better way)
Amy, “pre-op trans women’s bodies” would probably be reasonably straightforward and not misgendering. Sure it’s long to say, but it’s only in very few contexts where we would actually be talking about people’s bodies in this way at all.
“Male bodied” implies that the person is male (if you are a woman, you have a woman’s body, simply by definition; it might not be the same as another woman’s body, but it is still the body of a woman). That’s why it’s a problem.
You could also just call it a penis, when it’s a penis. I have a hard time understanding how you can really describe the form of someone who has been running an estrogen-based system, potentially for years, as “male.” I mean, it’s just factually incorrect, regardless of being shitty and misgendering as well.
I mean my government has the sense not to label people’s bodies based on their genitals. It’s really not that hard.
@Dragon – Thanks, I’ll say something like that instead in the future.
@Sarah – But I was referring to the whole body though – not just the penis. Again, I’m referring to pre-op trans women so i’m talking about the penis, absence of breasts, general physical form etc.
I think you’re confused about what pre-op is. That just refers to not having had vaginoplasty. Hormone replacement therapy is what creates breasts and reshapes our bodies. Absence of breasts implies pre-HRT.
“Hormone replacement therapy is what creates breasts and reshapes our bodies. Absence of breasts implies pre-HRT”
Absence of breasts perhaps wasn’t the best way to word it but correct me if I’m wrong but I thought it took averagely 2/3 years to completely grow breasts on HRT?
I really don’t see how that’s relevant given you don’t want to fuck someone with a penis, and by the time someone can get SRS they will have boobs and an altered form.
Over half of breast growth is in the first year, you have to have been on HRT for at least a year before SRS, and very, very few people get surgery even that quickly.
And HRT isn’t exactly a magic wand. It helps, but there is a wide range in the appearance of trans women, particularly in relation to our finances to pay for body mods, our ages in starting HRT, and our genetic starting points. Some of us are never going to look cis, and some of us end up as poster girls for Western Standards of Beauty ™.
It would be indelicate to comment on my own appearance. But my gf, who is also trans, is the product of starting hormone blockers at 17, $40k of facial surgery, and a huge genetic advantage in the form of a pure ectomorph body type – which means a slight slender frame. She’s 5’9″ and andro and painfully attractive, and it amuses me to watch other queer girls gawking at her. Very little of that has to do with estrogen reshaping her form.
So basically, appearance is unpredictable, obviously. And being post-transition is no particular guarantee that you’re going to like our bodies. Just like there is no particular guarantee that we will like yours.
And I’m seriously just wondering why aren’t cis men being asked to examine who they’re attracted to? (obviously it wouldn’t happen on autostraddle, but I haven’t actually seen it happen anywhere) Why is it perfectly fine for cis straight/gay men to only be ok with vagina/penis and they’re not accused of being transphobic? it does seem like every time this is discussed it comes from trans women (idk why but hardly ever trans men) and is always aimed at cis women – in particular lesbians.
> And I’m seriously just wondering why aren’t cis men being asked to examine who they’re attracted to?
They are.
> obviously it wouldn’t happen on autostraddle
No kidding.
> but I haven’t actually seen it happen anywhere
Maybe you should consider that’s because you haven’t seen it, not because it doesn’t exist.
I don’t honestly hang around a bunch of places where straight people or gay men have intimate conversations about their sex lives. I imagine you don’t either, but maybe I’m wrong? The main reason I know that trans issues come up in those contexts too is because of trans friends and seeing it come up in the context of trans venues. And from that view, I know a lot of discussion happens in a lot of contexts between a lot of different types of groups and our community is not unique in talking about this.
> idk why but hardly ever trans men
idk why you think most trans men would want lesbians to direct their sexual attentions towards them. Therefore you’re personally unlikely to hear that from them, wouldn’t you think?
(There are some exceptions and trans men who do seem to want to date lesbians, but that is a whole different kettle of fish[1]. That’s dynamics I’ll leave for trans men to deal with as it’s dynamics I’m not well positioned to understand, deconstruct, or take action on. Nor are they dynamics I’m particularly inclined to want to have anything to do with since I don’t date men, trans or otherwise.)
And for whatever it’s worth, I do think some trans men tend to suffer quietly about some of these issues and I feel really bad about some of the problematic shit some of my friends who are trans men have had to deal with. But it’s not my place to speak for them or their experiences so perhaps you could ask some trans men what they think. I assume you’d hear some insightful comments. :)
[1] I’ve been recently trying to figure out where this saying comes from or why it makes any sense. I’m not exactly sure why you’d put fish in a kettle, but I digress.
> is always aimed at cis women
To some extent a lot of trans people have to work through a lot of our own issues about trans people (since we have to deal with them pretty first hand) and so it’s a bit less necessary. But that’s not really the whole story and a lot of us spend some time helping each other deconstruct and find our own shit too.
Most trans people who date a trans person end up deconstructing little pieces of internalized nonsense that lurks around during the process. So it’s not just cis women.
> in particular lesbians.
I don’t see anything in this article or any other that suggests anything about how anything in question is exclusive to lesbians that wouldn’t also apply to women who identify as bi, queer or some other similar label.
Here is a link on the “kettle of fish” dealie: http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-ket1.htm And Google turned up lots more beside that (I was curious myself ^_^ ).
Oh my god! Thank you so much!
I can’t believe I didn’t think just to search around for it!
(And for whatever it’s worth, even though I was familiar with the term kettle that is being referred to and am familiar that one *could* cook fish that way, I’m still left entirely perplexted about why one would want to. Broiling, grilling, frying, or an oven seems so much better than boiling. My only conclusion is that UK food can be a little weird sometimes. My UK friends seem to think the same of American fare, so I guess the feeling’s mutual.)
Here is an article I wrote specifically about trans women dating cis men, and challenging the violence that trans women sometimes face from them, and again challenging the socially constructed concept of mandated disclosure in that context:
http://leftytgirl.wordpress.com/2012/09/18/on-the-disclosure-myth-and-the-cissexist-imagination/
Also there are a number of articles out there about trans men dating both cis men and cis women. I suggest looking.
Thank you for the article Savannah <3
I am sorry for the lame date and all the negative & hateful comments on this thread.
At least, speaking up will always be a helpful step towards the education of a few open-minded souls.
A loved one once told me that compassion was much more valuable than understanding… To this day, I have actively worked on letting go of my attempts to 'understand' in order to focus on my ability to listen.
I support whichever identities and labels you (and others) want to use – let's build a world where people can self-define who they are by selecting whichever words they want and focus on respecting those choices. The destructive need to reject someone's realities and experiences through exclusive boundaries is unnecessary.
a.k.a. the only person who can define who I am and what I am is myself.
I changed my label from "lesbian" to "queer" when I found myself falling in love with someone who didn't identify as a "woman", "bisexual" was also out of the question since ze didn't identify as a "man" either – so I found "queer" and I took it all for myself. Now I can finally fall in love with whoever the hell gives me all kinds of butterflies and work from "queer" <3
ps
"Those boundaries must be respected throughout by everyone involved. The key is to keep the channels of communication open throughout, and to rely on active consent as the model for sexual intimacy at every moment."
Yes, yes, and yesss.
I might have to make a large print of this one. Or an amazing Tumblr meme of solidarity. Could I have your permission?
Of course, my article is open to being shared (or critiqued) as you see fit :)
Fabulous :) Thank you!
I’m not policing your label, you go with whatever feel right to you, but…
Bisexuals define bisexuality most commonly as “an attraction to (a) people of same/similar gender as themselves and (b) different gender(s)”. Which may or may not include attraction to “men”. Just sayin’.
As this is the label of my choice, I’m kind of tired of non-bisexuals refer to it as “an attraction to men and women only”, while also usually implying that “men” and “women” also means exclusively “cis”. But that is not true for so many bisexuals. And this is not true for me.
There are some more definitions by bi-organizations if you are interested: http://girl-panic.tumblr.com/post/27659014520/what-is-bisexuality
Besides that miner point you seem like an awesome and open minded person. Your partner & lover is very lucky to have you, Elijah :)
A kinda non sequitur thought at work today made me think… what happens if you take those TERF-ish diatribes and replace ‘wbw’ (or whatever word) with ‘white’… hate is hate, ladies, and this ‘cis pride worldwide’ is just as repugnant as ‘white pride worldwide’.
lol i love when transsexuals – usually the white M2Ts – appropriate civil rights!
Is that the Horst Wessel Song I hear over there?
You’ve got more in common with those skinhead rejects than with anyone here at AS.
M2T? Okay, whatever. *I* know what I am, and your opinion is so, so irrelevant to that, that it’s almost amusing. You TERFs, though, do have something in common with the skinheads: you’re so insecure about your own identity, that you have to try to take your frustrations out on others. It’s kinda sad… I’ll pity you when I’m bored and have nothing better to do.
What makes you assume that I’m white, btw?
All this drama makes me hot!
Ok please don’t be offended by this, but I actually don’t know which Carolina you are from just by saying that it’s great.
I’m guessing North.
Hi Savannah
I’ve known about you since the Requiem for a Dialogue article you posted on PQ
I have to say that this post is just one of many great ones you’ve done.
Its a killer shame that there appears to be some on here who will always see us as men (even after surgery to correct down there). its almost depressing to read in all honesty
I understand *that many don’t wish to be sexual with penis no matter who its on* (I put that in asterisks as sadly it does appear some can’t or wont read(delete as appropriate) but to go down with saying that we can have all the hormones and surgeries god can throw at us and were still just not a lot more then surgically altered men is pure transmisogyny, transphobia, cissexism, and all the rest of it
Come on ladies sort it out, this is the 21st century not the stone age, or is it. Sometimes I do wonder
I hate that it is depressing and I used to wish I could be different. I can be a friend and an ally, because on an intellectual level I can think this person is a woman, they identify as a woman, and that’s all that matters. My day to day interactions with that woman are no different than with any other. Sexually it’s different though, it’s baser and my brain sees and interprets things differently than how I consciously think.
I’ve often thought I would never date anyone who is female to male, because it would be wrong and a violation of that person. Some transgendered men (I know bringing them up is a trigger here, but I have a point) are very masculine and the hormones are incredibly effective. They do not turn my head, but some, who are perhaps not on hormones, are very feminine and I can’t help but see them sexually as very attractive butch lesbians. I’m not straight, it’s not right or fair, and even though I could use the right pronouns on the surface it would be a lie.
My attraction to people and my social consciousness are not one. It’s not something I can change or think I should have to. It’s just how I am. I believe with the spectrum of sexual orientations there is someone for everyone.
It’s “transgender”, not “transgendered”, as it is and adjective, not a verb.
You are making some pretty intense assumptions about what “trans” looks like. When the truth is that “trans” doesn’t actually look like anything in particular.
I’m guessing you haven’t met or can even conceive of trans women who look like, well, me. Probably because when you meet someone like me, you aren’t going to know she is trans, so you’re just going to assume she’s cis and go on in your bubble of thinking trans women look a certain way and therefore are inherently unattractive to the sexy part of your brain. When really, you’ve probably already wanted to screw a trans girl, or even have screwed a trans girl, but you thought they were cis.
I just wanted to make one teensy comment about use of the word “tranny.” Having recently seriously dated a trans guy, I’ve observed a lot of casual, accepted, even affectionate and loving use of the term. I recognize that each person will have personal relationships with the word, and that the bottom line is it is critical to follow an individual’s lead on the use of the term, but I also wanted to share my experience of “tranny” culture….
It’s reclaimed language…reclaimed for some, hurtful for others. It seems that trans* guys are reclaiming it more than trans* women, though I might be somewhat off on that.
Hi, just wanted to point out the term “tranny” is a slur that specifically targets trans women, not trans men. From my own perspective as a trans woman, I find it pretty strange for a trans man to ‘reclaim’ that word when I’ve never once heard anyone use the word in a pejorative manner against such an individual. I’m sure it must have happened once or twice at some point, okay, but then again if you hear the word “tranny” on the streets, in the media, it is virtually always intended to conjure up an image of either a trans woman “predator” in disguise, or derogatory porn featuring trans women, or maybe a “non-passable” trans women who is intended to be mocked, etc.
As a trans woman who has been called the word in a number of hurtful circumstances, I would sincerely ask that nobody other than trans women attempt to reclaim this word (even them, I’m a bit skeptical). For another trans women’s perspective on this, please check here:
http://inourwordsblog.com/2012/03/14/community-and-consequences/
And for a trans man who concurs with this perspective (and more and more I think are coming to a similar conclusion I think):
http://www.originalplumbing.com/2012/01/23/why-im-not-saying-trnny-and-id-like-it-if-you-guys-didnt-either-please/
Ah, Savannah, thanks for the link. I knew I’d read that Original Plumbing one somewhere and remember bits and pieces of it :)
Do you have a bibliography, of sorts, of such links? Or just your own bookmarks?
lol sorry no…. I actually googled these two from memory because I a 100% disorganized! :)
i definitely hear and respect what you’re saying. again, as I said, it’s critical to follow the lead of whatever given person you’re talking to/about, but I’m glad you brought it up so I can be mindful in the future and not assume that just because my ex embraced the term that that applies generally.
Savannah, this article is win. Simply too likeable for the amount of education within.
[***Trigger warning: calling out people on their bullshit.***]
To the haters: many trans* women consider their downstairs parts to be a birth defect. By saying that you are attracted to women but in finding out about that defect that you wouldn’t date them, it DOES make you a jerk. That is not only a cissexist attitude but a fucked-up ableist one as well.
[***Trigger warning: sexual assault / assault***]
You were sexually assaulted? That IS a big deal and you are an amazing survivor of a shitty experience – power to you. That assault, however, is not the fault of genitals, it is the fault of your oppressor and those alike to that person because it happened in their BRAIN not in their PANTS. Let’s say somebody attacked you with a common tool – I don’t know, a spanner or a screwdriver or a bat or some shit. Would you (did you) blame the tool for the attack? Really? I didn’t – IT IS JUST A THING. Blame the person holding the tool, not the tool itself.
Your experiences and feelings are valid but just make sure to check that you aren’t simply being an arsehole to some person(s) who don’t deserve it.
Rant over.
Hey, I’m glad you like my article but let’s try not lecturing sexual assault survivors, thanks.
I am not apologetic but I regret having resorted to such an example. People making excuses for their prejudice does not sit with me.
There are no excuses for prejudice.
There are no excuses for prejudice.
There are no excuses for prejudice.
“[***Trigger warning: sexual assault / assault***]
You were sexually assaulted? That IS a big deal and you are an amazing survivor of a shitty experience – power to you. That assault, however, is not the fault of genitals, it is the fault of your oppressor and those alike to that person because it happened in their BRAIN not in their PANTS. Let’s say somebody attacked you with a common tool – I don’t know, a spanner or a screwdriver or a bat or some shit. Would you (did you) blame the tool for the attack? Really? I didn’t – IT IS JUST A THING. Blame the person holding the tool, not the tool itself.”
When you have some kind of PTSD or are in any way triggered by penises because of assault/rape and your brain has linked violence and penises together then it’s really not as simple as just changing your thinking. And I’d just like to add in that argument of ‘blame the person holding the tool, not the tool itself’ is sometimes used by cis men towards women who have decided not to be with men anymore because of rape/sexual assault.
And in regards to your example, yeah you’d blame the person and not the tool – but i’m sure if that happened afterwards you’d be wary of someone coming towards you with a bat or a screwdriver…
Regarding PTSD: My brain has linked violence and police together, violence and transphobia together, violence and queerphobia together, violence and hobos together, violence and conservatives together – plus a swathe of other things – and even if I am shit fucking scared of those things, because of the violence that I associate with them, I DO NOT STICK IT TO GREATER THAN NINETY PERCENT OF THE WORLDS POPULATION TO KEEP THEIR POTENTIAL FOR ABUSE AWAY FROM ME EVEN IF THEY COME TOWARDS ME WITH IT. No matter how traumatising it may be.
All I am seeing in your post are excuses for blaming bits rather than behaviour. The onus is on you to stop hiding behind those excuses.
Major trigger warning for sexual violence.
I think you’re a little confused.
Also maybe a little ignorant.
Your comments sort of felt like a punch in the gut.
I stated above that I would not sleep with someone with a penis. A trans woman without one? Yeah, sure, if I was attracted to her. I CANNOT feel comfortable naked in a bed with a penis or a penis-shaped object. I just can’t. And that’s directly a result of diagnosed PTSD.
But there’s a distinct difference between saying “I don’t feel comfortable being naked in a bed with a penis” and “I don’t feel comfortable naked in a bed with a trans woman.” I don’t believe everyone with a penis is dangerous/will rape me/evil/etc. Do I believe that penises have been used as weapons way too much? Of course I do. Bosnian genocide, for example. Even then, some of the women who survived that horrible, horrible event have gone on to have healthy sex lives. We cannot help what we remember, what triggers us, what sticks out to us. YES, it IS the people behind the attacks, not the weapon themselves, but we’re not really focused in the moment on channeling all of our senses into remembering the faces of the perpetrators so that’s the only thing that sticks with us. I have been raped by two girls working in tandem and by a man, and I was molested by an older teenage boy. Only in the case of the molestation do I remember distinctly his face, and every time I see it, whether on Facebook or whatever, I have a panic attack. In the other cases, I remember the way the hand over my mouth felt, the weight on my body, the breathing in my ear, their voices, the penis or penis shaped object inside me. That’s what I remember. And it’s not my damn fault I didn’t focus on their faces so that I wouldn’t associate the attack with anything other than their faces. My body focused on what exactly in that moment it could feel, what was causing me physical pain.
I just think you should maybe not victim shame here. I’m not saying trans women are men, rapists, evil, dangerous, or that I wouldn’t be attracted to them. I’m not saying penises are evil, dangerous, etc. I am saying that *I* do not feel comfortable naked in bed with a penis or penis shaped object because of *my own demons*, not because of THEM.
For the record, it’s not just penises/penis-shaped objects that make me uncomfortable during physical intimacy as a result of PTSD. I don’t really like being touched, anyway. My best friend/roommate climbed on top of me once in the middle of the night as a joke, and I gave her a bloody nose. A particularly rough one-night stand tried to pin me down and I threw her off of me, across the room.
These aren’t things I assume people should know about me. I make it PRETTY DAMN CLEAR up front.
Perhaps you are right. Perhaps I am just a big evil and realise that subtlety often does not work. Regardless, victim shaming is not my intention and I apologise if that is what I did. Today has been very fail with me trying to put things into words…
What I was trying to get at is that a traumatic experience CAN be separated from the esteem and potential of a survivor and to think and say otherwise is disempowering to survivors and will do naught to help them heal. It is insulting and demeaning to imply that the limit of their capability is that they cannot overcome.
At the same time, it’s not your place, as someone who does not know me or anyone else on this thread speaking on the subject of their PTSD, to tell me what I need to get over or work through in terms of PTSD.
It’s not like I’m sitting on my butt doing absolutely nothing in terms of self-care.
Okay.
Do not deliberately misinterpret what I wrote as you are clearly smarter than to do that.
I never said “all” – you did. I also used “can” in the sense of the word meaning possible. Grow the fuck up.
“All I am seeing in your post are excuses for blaming bits rather than behaviour. The onus is on you to stop hiding behind those excuses.”
If I consider PTSD a valid ‘excuse’ for not wanting to be in a sexual situation with someone with a penis, that’s really up to me – you don’t get to decide what a valid reason is. We’re talking about sex here, it’s an optional activity to start off with! Even if I wasn’t including PTSD, I have absolutely no obligation to consider trans women as prospective partners – I can do so if I wish, but I don’t have to. And I’m saying I don’t want to (in particular I don’t want to consider pre-op trans women as sexual partners)
It’s very simple, I’m being ASKED to think about the reasons behind who I personally find attractive and I’m saying no, I’m attracted to who I’m attracted to and I do not want to examine that. You may consider that to be petulant but I’d rather be called petulant than not be able to make my own decisions and date trans women because I feel sorry for them or something.
I’ve heard many times that the cotton ceiling is about women who are *already* attracted to trans women being respected as lesbians still, and I’m fine with that. But I’m not fine with many lesbians saying a clear NO we don’t want to date trans women and then they’re told ‘well it’s because you’re transphobic/bigoted/ignorant’. A no is a no. This is about sex – an OPTIONAL, ENJOYABLE activity – you get to decide who you do it with!
“What I was trying to get at is that a traumatic experience CAN be separated from the esteem and potential of a survivor and to think and say otherwise is disempowering to survivors and will do naught to help them heal. It is insulting and demeaning to imply that the limit of their capability is that they cannot overcome.”
I didn’t say it couldn’t be. For some people it can be overcome and for some people it can’t. Additionally, some people do not want to deal with it and that’s fine too.
Yes it is fine Amy and your choices regarding sex are completely yours to make and you have no obligation to consider a woman with a penis as a sex partner if you are not into that.
I’ve disagreed with you strongly on other parts of this comment thread (including referring to non-op trans women like me as ‘male-bodied’ and such, eek) but here I agree with you more or less completely.
“You may consider that to be petulant but I’d rather be called petulant than not be able to make my own decisions and date trans women because I feel sorry for them or something.”
I do not consider it petulant or think that anybody ought to date anybody because they feel sorry for them.
It does, however, seem to me to be an incredible, two-faced, double-standard to want to sleep with women but not trans women due to what some people see as a simple (often awful) birth defect. To me it seems to promote trans-erasure and body policing and – if that is true – then it is well messed up.
Uh, I don’t quite understand why you would suggest that. Yeah, with regards to myself, it is a birth defect, and a pretty unbearable one at that, and as I’ve mentioned before, I can’t really picture myself sleeping with anyone until that’s remedied (unless, of course, my pants stay on, but that’s not really relevant right now).
I’d have no problems considering sleeping with a trans woman… provided she’s post-op; I have valid reasons not to want to be near someone else’s penis in a sexual way that have nothing to do with my having been born with one. No, I won’t go into details, but they’re valid reasons in my perception, and as far as deciding whom one wants to sleep with, one’s own perception is all that really matters – and that has absolutely nothing to do with not acknowledging a pre/non-op trans woman as a woman, trans-erasure, body policing or any other such thing.
The way I see it – so long as you acknowledge that yes, a trans woman is a woman – not wanting to sleep with a pre/non-op trans woman isn’t really different from not wanting to sleep with a cis woman because she’s tall or short or butch or femme or looks like your sister.
“No, I won’t go into details, but they’re valid reasons in my perception, and as far as deciding whom one wants to sleep with, one’s own perception is all that really matters – and that has absolutely nothing to do with not acknowledging a pre/non-op trans woman as a woman, trans-erasure, body policing or any other such thing.”
Xenia V. if that is true, then where are all the same-sex attracted ciswomen coming forward about not fucking other ciswomen because they don’t like vagina?
“… not wanting to sleep with a pre/non-op trans woman isn’t really different from not wanting to sleep with a cis woman because she’s tall or short or butch or femme or looks like your sister.”
These are all excuses I have heard before, among others that are typically racist and ablist, that are dismissed by many lesbian and gay cliques as preferential rather than what they really are – actual systemic prejudicial (and often intersectional) problems. Stop listening to the rubbish that crops up from popular homo cultural icons and following it just because everybody else is. In short, check yourself.
Also the “tall or short” part of your comment really, truly IS body policing. In my case, because I am short, my partners have always been taller than me – except for one person – which is not because I have a preference for people of a certain stature, it is because of what I am statistically likely to find. On the subject of statistics, I also find a lot of bigotry as being widely accepted in same sex attracted ‘communities’ because nobody has the decency to speak up against it in case it ostracises themselves from said group and perhaps ‘ruins’ their fuckability.
Why not go out and celebrate some diversity in life instead of shuttering it out and further promoting segregation and bigoted clique attitudes? Go out on a limb at the risk of being excommunicated and maybe you will make some new, more accepting friends or find people actually WORTH getting with (again and again).
Obviously I wrote too much and you missed what I was trying to say.
tl;dr I have issues with penes that make me not want to get near them, esp. not in a sexual way. No, I’m still not going to go into further detail with someone I don’t know.
Now, I may be mixing you up with someone else who’s posted here, if so I apologise, but someone anyways *has* told survivors of sexual assault in some comments here to ‘just deal with’ their issues with the penis. Sorry, but no, I’ll deal with that in my own time and in my own way… and that still has *nothing* to do with trans erasure or transphobia or whatever else.
As for the rest of what you wrote: I see a lot of assumptions, a lot of dismissals, and a lot of what appear to me to be pre-made judgements, so I’m not entirely sure it’s even possible to respond to it, since it seems to me you’ve already made your decision, and it doesn’t seem likely that anything I could say would change that decision.
*shrug*
Xenia V. I am not even replying directly to you but you really did put your foot in it. I never asked for detail further or otherwise so get off your silly defensive tree.
It gets my goat that arguments like this will never amount to more than removing ever more privilege from those who lack it whilst imparting it to those who already have it. It widens the social power gap further. And it makes me sick.
You quoted what I wrote and addressed me by name… this is “not replying directly to you”?
There is no reply button on your post at this level of comments so I have to press reply on my own post to maintain continuity. If I do not specify the context then it looks as though I am addressing my own comment. How would you propose that I work around that?
This may be worth some consideration on-topic, although it is written towards the other end of the gender curve. (I had to refer to Google cache as the originating site appears to be down or gone?) http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:nfYxzjU2-p0J:www.theprecarious.com/content/gender-stealth-why-transgender-disclosure-not-necessary
It can be a lot to wrap one head around! Also please consider reading the comments, some are pretty interesting. kthxbai~
What a disgusting post. Way to dude it up.
This ship has already sailed – did you skip the above comments just to have a snark at me?
Hi everybody… wow this thing never seems to end does it… well I collected a few of my thoughts on some of the conversations we’ve had here and put together a quick blog post about it last night… in particular I wanted to speak against this claim that keeps being made that “nobody is asking cis men to think through these things,” which is just like, totally not true:
http://leftytgirl.wordpress.com/2013/03/17/some-follow-up-on-comments-on-the-dating-guide-conversation-at-autostraddle/
Thank you for the clarification, you make an excellent point.
This is the thread that never ends…
It just goes on and on my friends…
Some people started posting and the Terf’s posted back!
Now the cycles never ending and I think I’m gonna yak!
This is the thread that never ends….
As I said upthread I was out of town this weekend and spent the first day this post was up in a car, and my jaw dropped when I opened my laptop on thursday night and surveyed the situation. But I was also really warmed and inspired by everybody fighting back against the assholes, especially considering [name i cannot type here because i’ve set up our comment system to automatically send any comment containing said name straight into the spam folder]’s repeated attempts to alert her minions about this thread.
Savannah, this post is awesome. I’ve liked your writing for a long time before we put up the trans*scribe call and was so happy to see your submission and read it and then publish it. I hope you keep writing stuff for us and g-ddamn your patience on this thread amazes me.
Obviously this thread raises questions about our comment moderation policy and I don’t have those answers just yet, this is far from my area of expertise and I don’t know what the best thing to do is, or how to do it. Again, I’m not the comment moderator but in my position should be providing more guidance.
Honestly, I would like to just delete the asshole transphobic and trans misogynist comments that get put up here, but I’ve yet to see one of those comments exist for more than ten seconds before somebody is responding to them and fighting back, and then I don’t know if this is a conversation people want to have and i should just let it be, or if i should delete the entire thread, or if i should delete the offensive comment but leave the rebuttal, even if the rebuttal doesn’t make sense without the offensive comment being deleted. In this case, by the time I even saw that the post had been published, it was already approaching 200 comments and there was no way to begin tackling individual threads without creating a bunch of floating responses to ghosts. So we have a lot of stuff to figure out! But I hope everybody knows that if at any time you feel a comment exists that should be deleted, you can contact us directly and we can do so. We rarely, if ever, delete homophobic comments, because we’re confident in our ability to handle them, but I’m not trans and neither are the mods and so please don’t hesitate to let us know when we’ve overlooked something you think needs to go.
Anyhow, again, thank you Savannah and everybody on this thread who isn’t an asshole! I hope all the assholes on this thread have also taken some time out to write Cosmopolitan magazine to yell at them about forcing you to date men by publishing heterosexual dating tips in their magazine, which you sometimes happen to catch a glimpse of at the grocery store.
For whatever it’s worth, I personally appreciate that AS doesn’t delete the comments typically. I think it makes our community stronger to have comments from any woman who likes woman remain, even if some of them espouse some really unfortunate views. I wish those comments didn’t happen, but I’m not for pretending sentiment that exists doesn’t and I tend to think sunlight is a better disinfectant than silencing. I also think it’s more effective.
Obvs some other people are going to have some different feelings, but I thought I’d toss mine in too. :)
thank you for weighing in, D! maybe we need to figure out a system with the redesign where vile comments are hidden and only visible by logged-in members who wanted to see them. like they could click a button to see them and the responses if they wanted to, but people who don’t want to see that shit could just scroll on by?
That sounds like a good option too. Though I think with all the things everyone hopes come out of the redesign Cee is going to have her hands full. I’m not sure how easy something like that is with wordpress, maybe it’ll turn out to be totally easy, maybe it won’t.
I’ll add my vote to leaving ALL the comments up, and continuing to flag the violation of comment policy wherever it occurs. It would be nice if some kind of header could added to the comments, warning people that flagged comments have not been removed, and that you may encounter hate speech.
Best blessings to the AS women who encourage this dialogue, standing for community and understanding.
Hey Riese!
I just sent you an email but I also wanted to respond here and just say thank you both to you personally and Autostraddle as a whole for working with me and other trans women on the Trans*scribe project. As I’ve stated elsewhere I’ve thought about writing for AS for a while and I felt like this was a really good opportunity and I’ve felt supported by you and your team on this project.
About the comments, maybe it’s a tough question in some ways in part because the people that seem to hate us so much are just so obsessive… like I do actually feel kinda sorry for them in a way because they seem to spend a large part of their day writing endless blogs and comments across the internet about a group of people they have almost no overlap with in real life… it’s kind of sad really, but whatever.
But in any case, I guess the main point is that I’ve enjoyed working with y’all on this and I’m hoping to continue doing so into the future!
Riese, you make it a policy to never delete homophobic comments but would want to know when you’ve overlooked something on this subject and it should go, please elaborate, as aren’t most statements being accused of being some type of phobic response when it comes down to it? I don’t get your response, because it seems to only make make sense it you are talking about guidelines like the swimsuit issues, but that is apples and oranges here.
it’s not our policy to never delete homophobic comments! i’m just saying that in practice, those comments, despite being against our official comment policy, might not always get deleted because the mods, as homos, may feel more comfortable making the call that something abusive can stay when they’re the ones being targeted? but that could also work both ways, which is why i really want people to feel comfortable contacting the mods to say “hey, you should get rid of this.” i think my head has totally exploded though and i’m no longer capable of communicating effectively with anybody or saying anything that makes sense. i don’t know. probably that sentence could just be deleted because it’s probably more confusing than relevant — i just want everybody to feel comfortable and happy here.
oh maybe another time, your head is probably exploding by now. When you have a minute hahahahahahhah
M
Hi folks,
I just wanted to jump in and add my thoughts to this debate. Firstly I’d just like to say thanks to Savannah for her article, it was a good read. I would also like to say thank you to the intelligent Cis and Trans women on here who have conducted themselves with grace and wit in this discussion and have tried to articulate their opinion in civil terms. Furthermore to those who wish to disrupt and create animosity in this space hoping that it will divide women from each other please go take a break from being a bigot.
Now I am going to try and deal with two issues. The first issue is Cis queer women not wanting to date trans women with male genitals. I think that is ok. I mean no one has the right to compel another to desire things they don’t and to be honest I think most people feel the same way. In all honesty I think this issue really only effects Pre-ops and Non-ops as to my line of thinking on this is that there are two groups of Cis queer women who are open to dating transwomen let’s call them group (a) and group (b). Group (a) have no issues with their partner’s genitals and will date them if they want to. Group (b) on the other hand do have an issue and it maybe because of their sexual desires, past experiences, personal beliefs, insecurities about their identity etc but this group doesn’t want be to be with someone who is ‘packing’. However they are still open to being with a trans women just as long as she is going to have or has already had SRS. Now because of this women who are non-ops are going to have to accept that their dating pool is not going to include a lot of women from group (b) that is just reality.
The second issue I want to try and deal with is the so called “cotton ceiling” (I really do hate that name). Now I don’t know a lot about it but what I know of it irritates me greatly as I think there is a lot wrong with this concept and the line of discussion advanced by proponents and opponents alike namely the way some members in each party trivialise Transphobia within the queer women’s community. Now that’s not to say that everything about it is wrong. In fact I think that it highlights two things that are a real problem for Trans women and Cis women in the queer women’s community namely exclusion and stigma. And I think that the assertive approach taken to tackle these by certain people is overall is a good thing. However trying to apply these same methods to dating and sexual relationships is a bad way forward for Trans women as it will only divide queer women from each other. If Trans women and queer Cis women allies want to deal with a lack of interest in dating Trans women then a new approach should be adopted to tackle this one that is not insulting of coercive.
I don’t know if I made any sense but these are my thoughts do with them as you will.
Cheers!
Christ i lose internet for a week and miss… this, whatever it is. Anywho, thank you for this Savannah. Not too useful for my current gf, as we’ve had to work all of it out together anyway, but definitely useful too.
Ignorance makes me sad.
The implications of these two points together are that statements such as “I am attracted to cis women but not trans women” simply do not make sense and are rooted in social prejudice.
I was with you until you wrote that. I’m a lesbian and while there are many wonderful emotional/personality things about women I love, a huge factor is attraction…on the most biological level and I don’t think you can invalidate my physical response by writing it off as social prejudice. You speak about respect and understanding, but you’re certainly not showing a whole lot.
It just means that you could have been attracted to a trans woman and not known it, or you could have actually been intimate with a post-op trans woman and not realized it.
Basically the question is: would *knowing* she’s trans make a difference? Especially when otherwise one has no idea?
I would just like to add my thoughts to the raging flood of comments.
I am a transgirl, and I am attracted to girls. Because of my long struggle with body-hate, I’m not sure how I would react to a potential partner being a pre/non-op transwoman (e.g. having a penis). I hope I would react well, and not care about the genitals, but I’m not sure. Of course, this does not mean that I would consider her to be any less a woman, nor would I ever consider anyone to be other than the gender they identify with. For me, gender is all in the brain, and no-one can tell me or anyone else what’s going on in their own brains.
(if the term girls offends anyone, I don’t mean it as in “a young girl” but as an alternative to woman)
I’ve read through this thread and as a transwoman, I found this thread had so many awesome posters and I really appreciated Savannah’s article. I think the hard part of the radfems trolling this article is that trans women often have so little spaces where we won’t face invalidating attacks if we are completely open about our personal histories. I like the debate, I don’t like nanny boards, but I really got depressed reading people supposedly lesbians whose views of sex are as simplistic and fundamentalist as my evangelical extended family and parents. If your definitions of sex are the exact same as the pope or Focus on the Family wouldn’t that be a little suspect to a person who identifies as a lesbian?
I am frustrated that AS, a space that I thought is safe, stops feeling safe once the spiteful radical jerks come in to proverbially stomp all over the flowers. I thought I had found a place to be in AS but it looks like even this place has its share of spiteful, cissexist hate mongers. I hate the world.
Personally, I think the AS folks have done a pretty amazing job here on the whole.
The vast majority of the haters and fundies were coming from outside the site because of a few radfem creeps who follow trans women around on the web no matter where they are (and a few of them have some weird personal obsession with me *shivers*). There were a few off comments from AS members as well, sure, but most of those were made out of ignorance, not hate.
We’re all sisters, let’s try having some patience with one another.
Okay, I definitely concede that.
(also we have blocked several radfem creeps from commenting over the past year or so and will continue to whenever we can concretely identify their IPs.)
Glad to hear you’re being proactive. Some of them (especially the stalkers) use IP anonymizers, but every little bit helps.
I find it a little hard to believe… do they *seriously* have this much time on their hands, or anything better to do? Sad.
They are literally stalkers.
And they want to say *we’re* deranged? Pfft.
Why is this okay… calling someone a “radfem creep”… this makes me really sad for what used to be an interesting and diverse community.
Masha, have you seen some of the sites they mention? Believe me, it is a totally appropriate term for this flavor of radfems. Not all radfems are rabid transphobes like these are. They are actually ruining the radfem name.
I think my pacifist and Buddhist foundation are translating into a specific way of seeing these issues… Considering that we’re at a stage of human consciousness right between death and rebirth, some birth pains are bound to accompany the rushes – it’s just important to realize that these are productive pains.
Yeah, I’ve had a rollercoaster ride of a journey in the past year with two very dear, long-term friends starting transition and both counting on me for support… I basically took a self-guided masters in gender studies so that I could be an informed and truly present friend for each of them. The most significant of my internal hurdles was the intense mourning that I experienced (especially for my FTM friend, a past lover) as their former selves basically died.
How this relates?… what I see as the root of the frenzied denial of trans* realities on those radfem sites is not fear or hate… but intense, desperate, lonely mourning.
I hope that makes some sense.
The terf radfems that attack trans women aren’t mourning. They are just full of pure hatred. They deny that transgender even exists. Transphobia doesn’t exist. Transmisogyny doesn’t exist. And they publicly shame us the way men use s-shaming. I could hardly call that mourning.
Sorry Lana, I mis-placed my reply and it ended up above yours in the thread.
I also wanted to add that I can’t extend my intention to include a policing of public spaces (even cyber-spaces) because right now I am consumed with advocating for quality-of-care for these two precious friends, whose journeys ARE within my capacity to effect.
After mourning, my biggest emotion was fear.. not OF my trans* friends, but FOR them.. that they would end up with the equivalent of a sexual lobotomy after the surgical interventions that are still ‘on the table’ for both of them. That it would mean an end to the potent sensuality that is currently a part of each of their lived, embodied, gender-variant existence.
What on earth are you talking about? I mean please explain to me how deliberately misgendering trans people (particularly trans women) equals grief, please explain how calling or insinuating that trans people (especially trans women) are rapists/sexists/paedophiles equals grief, please explain how denying trans people equal access to public spaces that are appropriate to their gender identity equals grief, please explain how actively promoting Transphobia within society equals grief, please explain how supporting systemic discrimination of trans people from governmental institutions and civil society equals grief, please explain to me how blaming trans people (especially trans women) for all the failures of the women’s movement or LGBT movement, or any other progressive organisation equals grief. I mean the list of things that these individuals force upon Trans people could go on and on but I’m not going to bore you. However if you want to take the position that that these individuals have done nothing wrong and that they are not morally responsible for helping to harm trans people then you go and do that but don’t for a second think that we agree with it, or that we accept it, or excuse it you have come to the wrong place for that.
I just fell head over heals in love with your comment. *feint*
Alice, by your intensely emotionally fraught comment (and its’ content) I can only surmise that you and I have been visiting very different radfem forums..
Further, I would suggest that if you know of individuals who “force (atrocities) upon Trans people” you should pursue them with legal action.
As for who is “morally responsible” for harming trans* people.. wow, I suspect that would be a rather long list – including you and I.
I don’t know what to say to that last sentence.. you are very much mistaken about my position or what I think you have to “agree with, accept or excuse” (there were absolutely no directives or imperatives in any of my statements).
But if you speak for this community.. I have DEFINITELY “come to the wrong place”… for any discourse or dialogue.
Trigger Warning: Extreme Transphobia. I understand if this post gets deleted but I feel I need to let Masha (and others) know exactly who we are talking about when we say “radfem creeps”. Please don’t visit these sites if you are offended easily by transphobia.
pretendbians.com
gendertrender.wordpress.com
“After mourning, my biggest emotion was fear.. not OF my trans* friends, but FOR them.. that they would end up with the equivalent of a sexual lobotomy after the surgical interventions that are still ‘on the table’ for both of them. That it would mean an end to the potent sensuality that is currently a part of each of their lived, embodied, gender-variant existence” -MashaDiaspora
Perhaps you should be less concerned about the outcome of medical procedures your friends are considering…and instead give more thought about why you think you know better than them what they should do with their own bodies. The history of radical feminism and trans issues is full of well intentioned women “looking out for the best interests” of people they felt couldn’t or shouldn’t make decisions for themselves.
Please do not take offense at this, but I think you might still be very attached to your notion of who your friends are (or were). Take a glance at your word choice at the the end of that quote.
–“it would mean an end to the potent sensuality”–
You mentioned that you dated one of your two friends, perhaps your fear is less about them and more about your feeling of losing something that you cherished.
Emma,
I am not a radical feminist.. my role as a trans ally, specifically to these two friends rests in my every-day occupation as a medical advocate and facilitator to the immigrant and aboriginal communities in my area (and my concern for my friends is a part of what I have been asked, by them, to do for them).. these friends belong to the same immigrant community as I do and my potentially over-involved (to the Western gaze) concern for their medical outcomes is also more culturally appropriate for us… having survived civil war in our mother land, we tend to “look out” for each other (especially while negotiating these Western institutions) with particular fervor.
“Please do not take offense at this, but I think you might still be very attached to your notion of who your friends are (or were). Take a glance at your word choice at the the end of that quote.”
Yes, yes and yes.. to this I totally agree. Completely… Mea culpa.
I ask you; how do you navigate this loss?
“perhaps your fear is less about them and more about your feeling of losing something that you cherished.”
I would say it is an equal measure of both.. and the reason I am speaking openly about it here is that I realize my burdening my former lover with this is… inappropriate.
@MashaDiaspora
What was emotional about my response? All I did was cut the fluffiness out and jump straight to the crux of the issue, which is Transphobia. Legal action is taken to protect Trans people’s rights. In fact there is this little group of people out called the Transgendered rights movement. This is a group that is devoted to protecting the rights of Trans people as well as promoting their legal, social, health, etc issue within society. This group refuses to allow transphobes to get their way in all matters all of the time. What is your point about the list being long? I mean so the list will be long that’s a sad fact and it will include many different types of people who have done various types of transphobic things to Trans people. Furthermore as someone who did suffer from internalised Transphobia it is important that people be honest and take responsibility for what they have done so that they can help solve the problem and improve the quality of life for trans people.You may not have clearly stated your stance on this issue but you have attempted to justify the
Transphobia of others that may not be a directive but it is a clue to what your personal feelings on this issue are. However if you wish to publicly state what your personal feelings are on this matter now is the place and time for you to do so.
“But if you speak for this community.. I have DEFINITELY “come to the wrong place”… for any discourse or dialogue.”
Firstly I speak for no one but myself. Secondly if you wish to leave fine no one will stop you but remember no one here is kicking you out you are choosing to walk out of your own accord because you seem not like when people disagree with you.
@Dani
I’m happy, that your happy.:)
Alice,
I have misunderstood you.. apparently.. I would like you to consider that you and I have two very different styles of discourse and there is very little potential for anything useful to be born from a conversation between us.. so I am “bowing out”. English is my third language and it takes a lot for me to translate back and forth and post a response that isn’t gibberish.. and I fear that I am both: not coming across correctly AND not understanding you correctly. I remain uncertain of your motives for what you have written to me but, as always, I will assume the best (that you are attempting to educate/inform).
But.. you have “called me out” about “my stance on this issue” in a way that I find… offensive. This seems hard for you to believe, but I am not from your world; there are no Trans rights groups in my community; my battle to get my trans* friends out of a war zone and recognized as refugees in this country continues… is that “clearly stated” enough for you?
As for any attempt on my part to “justify the Transphobia of others” – I do not live on the internets.. this is my first foray into any sustained opinion-sharing on any online forum.. I did not realize that there are hate groups directed at trans* people on the English-speaking sites and I’m not sure that I’m thankful for the knowledge.
Thank you so much for your respect for my stated creed of non-violence, including non-violent discourse. Thank you for your consideration of the possibilities that your community and culture are not the ONLY community and culture in which trans* issues are being navigated… and thank you for not assuming that I am cis gendered.
MashaDiaspora-
Sorry for assuming you were defending the old-school radical feminist stance on trans issues, but you had joined in the conversation (as far as I could tell) questioning why people would label someone a “radfem creep”. I won’t try and explain that topic or let it be a distraction from our conversation anymore. ^_^
“I ask you; how do you navigate this loss?”
Honestly, I do not know. I dated someone as a teenager and they could not move past mourning when I transitioned. Even though that was almost two decades ago I have been told they speak of me as if I died.
“the reason I am speaking openly about it here is that I realize my burdening my former lover with this is… inappropriate.”
It is wonderful that you realize this. However… mourning, though a very strong emotion, may not be helpful in the long run. I think it is important for you to remember that your understanding of your friends, their bodies and the entire emotional meaning of their lives was based on your assumptions and perceptions at the time. Reexamining the meanings of all you took for granted may seem intimidating, but I think it will be worth it in the long term.
It is my belief that transitioning is like a lot like puberty. No one is the same before and after puberty, but nonetheless they are still the same person.
I hope this helps.
Emma,
Thank you for your responses and ‘nudges’.. they have absolutely helped – and thank you for your gentle forbearance.
“I think it is important for you to remember that your understanding of your friends, their bodies and the entire emotional meaning of their lives was based on your assumptions and perceptions at the time. Reexamining the meanings of all you took for granted may seem intimidating, but I think it will be worth it in the long term.”
– This is really, deeply significant.. and huge for me. And seriously daunting, I can’t lie.
This was an amazing article but some of the transphobic comments literally made me ill. Depressed. One of the worst things about being trans is when abusive bigots have to abuse and demean you on any article that even mentions a trans* woman. It seems almost unavoidable no matter where you are, massive hate and vile is there. :(
I hear you, I would hope that when you pour through this monster of a thread you can see that the number paint a picture of massively supportive majority and a relatively small majority of non-members who flew in for the trolling.
Sure thy are rough, but I still find AS to be amazingly supportive and safe. I know I never have to fight alone here. :)
I should have mentioned that. I was impressed by the support we are receiving from members here. And SO thankful! When you get depressed, it is hard to pull yourself back up.
It’s pretty gross how the trolls flocked to this to derail the whole thing. Glad to see everyone that’s actually a part of the community here is supportive.
OMG you guys I just reread through all 6XX comments. I feel like my eyes are about to fall out.
I realized upon rereading the article and the comments that I had in fact missed the emphasis on not wanting to hook up with a woman with different genitalia than your own is OK. Sorry if I added to the overall confusion, Savannah.
I will say something about the follow-up paragraph though, the one about nobody’s body being a representation of the patriarchy. I think suggesting to cis women that they reconsider their stance on genitalia is unfair. Sure, some may be anti-penis because they think it represents the patriarchy, but I can’t imagine that it’s an important percentage. Not liking penises, or not being attracted to them, or PTSD all feel like they’d be more common.
I also want to thank pac for her comments, because I think she and I share a similar stance. Also, of course, Shelby, Savannah, and others for their thoughtful, careful responses. Except for the radfems, this has been a really interesting discussion.
I am so proud to be a part of the Autostraddle community where trans* girls’ voices heard and accepted. I’m a cis girl partnered with a trans* girl, so I was already familiar with most of this, but I think it will be very helpful for other girls.
I can’t speak for the trans* community, of course, but I do want to contribute some additional things that I’ve had to learn in my relationships with trans* girls. (Lemme know if I’m off the mark on any of this, please).
1. Before I really knew any trans* women in real life, I assumed that they were all very feminine in manner and dress- makeup, flashy jewelry, heels, etc. This was the very limited view of trans* women I was exposed to in the media. Just as not all cis women are high femme, not all trans*women are high femme either. My girlfriend is a self-described tomboy who uses minimal makeup and usually wears jeans and sneakers. She will never share my love of frilly, flowery girly dresses (although she will occasionally don a gothic Lolita dress). But no woman, cis or trans*, needs to get dolled up in order to be considered a “real” woman.
2. Never discuss someone’s trans* status with other people without permission! This is definitely something you’ll want to ask your date about, especially if things progress between you two.
I’ve never had a major problem dating other women. We work our relationship out or it isn’t a relationship. Life’s too short to keep any more assholes around than just the single one I need.
I stumbled onto this post and its comments thread, and while I haven’t read through every one of the comments (it’s a pretty long thread), I’ve read enough of them to make me want to offer my sincere thanks to this community for lifting the spirits of a person struggling to find their place.
I am FAAB and currently interact with the world as a female-identified person, but I have very recently started to come to terms with my gender identity, and I am still trying to work through a lot of conflicting thoughts and emotions to determine whether a non-binary/genderqueer identity is right for me, or whether I am, in fact, a transgender man. If I were to transition, I would be out to the world as a gay trans man. And while I sometimes feel that I should be more positive about this process of sorting out my identity, I’ve actually found it to be more terrifying and depressing than anything — I fear the effects that transphobia could have on just about every aspect of my life, and one of the many things I’ve been worried about is rejection by the gay community. Mostly I have worried about this in a “gay cis men will not see me as male and no one will ever want me” sort of way, but I’ve also heard stories in online trans* spaces about gay and lesbian communities being totally unwelcoming towards trans* people and dismissive of the issues that concern them. I have allowed myself to get bogged down in those stories, and the idea that the L and G don’t get along with the B and the T has fueled my fear of what comes next. And I’ve felt a lot worse as a result.
But over the past few days, I have seen numerous examples of the exact opposite happening — I have seen cis lesbians and gay men not merely tolerating trans people, but accepting and including them, and speaking up for their rights, and discussing ways to make the world a better and safer place for everyone. And I’ve seen no more amazing, sparklingly intelligent, and, quite frankly, badass examples of this than in the comments on this article (which is itself a great read). You lovely folks (and of course I mean those of you who have stood up to the outright transphobia and willful misunderstandings) are the bee’s knees. I don’t know what my future holds, and I’m still very apprehensive about it. But one thing I am sure of is that, even as I move away from personally identifying as a woman, I hope my life will always be filled with the friendship and wisdom of positive, inspiring, and witty women such as yourselves.
I know there’s some truth to those stories. I know that some spaces which profess to be for LGBTQ people are really just for LGB people, and often just for the G. I know that being lesbian, gay, or bisexual does not always preclude an individual from being transphobic. (We’ve seen examples of that in these comments.) And I know that the community has a lot of work to do on these issues. These are things I will have to deal with. But just to see that work being done, and seeing the effects of it in the words and actions of cis LGB folks, cuts through the gloom and gives me a more balanced view of my future. It can’t be all bad if there are people like you in it — people who make an effort to learn and to grow, people who understand or at least try to understand. People who care. AWESOME people.
Much love and respect.
(By the way, to the commenter who came up with RAGE BAKING: thank you for that. I don’t know why it never occurred to me to take out my frustrations on uncooked pastry. BURN, you pasty little lumps of dough! Burn in hell. And by hell, I mean my 350-degree oven. And by burn, I don’t mean to the point of filling my kitchen with smoke. But burn, nevertheless.)
Avery’s comment makes me sad on a multitude of levels, probably because Savannah’s article was written so honestly and I have a really hard time accepting it when people try to undermine good journalism, and also because it actually hurt me on an emotional level.
I’m not even sure whether I can respond in an appropriate manner because my pansexuality classifies me alongside the bisexual and straight women that Avery grossly grouped together as a binary to lesbianism.
But a few months ago, my (now ex)girlfriend made a similar cissexist statement. I was obsessing over pictures of Andrej Pejic, who, for those of you who don’t know, is a genderbending model, born biologically male, but refuses to accept a label as male, female, or trans, as well as define his (I say “his” because that’s the pronoun many articles use and he’s okay with that) sexual orientation. My girlfriend got upset because I was fantasizing about someone who has a penis.
So what if he has a penis? Who says that (in my fantasy land, if Andrej realized how deeply I admire him, and we actually got together (totally fantasizing, but go with it)) that he would even want to use his penis or have it touched? Having the biological components does not require a person to abide by heterosexual “norms.”
The other reason Avery’s (and my ex’s) comment hurts is because it denies an undefineable feeling that is central to my being. I identify as a cis-woman. I love my body, accept my anatomy, and have worked to understand (and even radically reclaim) prescribed gender roles. But I’m also a dom (not to say all dom’s feel this way, but I do), and in the context of being in the bedroom, playing the role of “woman” makes me feel utterly unsexy. Whether I’m with a ciswoman or cisman, positions that expose my biological genitalia make me want to cry. I want to be with my partners in the way a biological male would, and it always hurts to be stonewalled by the essentialist argument that tries to define my behavior by my physical limitations. (note: I recognize that a few of the above statements sound heteronormative, but I cannot figure out a better way to articulate my feelings.)
I do not identify as trans, and I cannot even begin to imagine how difficult the experience of a transindividual is, but I do know what it’s like to feel like I reside on the wrong side of society’s stupid binaries. So, as an ally to transpersons, cissexism and transmisogny not only work to erase the (very complicated) feelings people have, but they perpetuate a more general group of “isms” that I joined the AS community to escape.
And speaking about AS, I just have to say that we all joined this group because we believe that love and sex should not be defined by society’s general and limited view of normal behavior. If those concepts could be grasped and defined simply, then there wouldn’t be a million (heteronormative) romcom’s about how difficult a balanced relationship is to acheive. With that being said, let’s all say “F*** You” to the binaries and love openly and respectfully as we all should.
I know my response might border on being “too personal” but I could not easily respond to how Avery’s response tried to simplify other people’s feelings. Plus, this is AS, an accepting community where I feel like my emotional word-vomit is welcome.
I would like to make a suggestion to Autostraddle. Would you consider not using a default icon (speaking of the girls happy in a field or whatever). Most of the transphobic comments were made with this icon attached and every time I see that icon I get triggered. It is actually traumatic. Even when I post a message and see it pop up on my own message.
Somewhere along the way, I found GenderTrender. I was scandalized. Something she posted led me to one article, then another, then that led me here. I have just read all of the comments and I’m glad I did. I learned some things about myself.
I have always considered myself a trans ally. I have many trans guy friends and my BFF’s husband is trans. I don’t happen to know any trans women, in real life. I would have said I was sure about my ally-ness.
Until I read this and my first thought was “I probably wouldn’t date a trans woman.” Which made me think “But I would have dated a trans guy back when I was single. What’s up with that?”
I realized something horrifying. I am pretty sure that I think of them as … men, but not “really” men. Jesus, Mary and Joseph. It’s that socialization thing – transguys were socialized as women, even though they weren’t and there are (or so I thought) vestiges of that remaining. Yes, I *know* that’s not right but apparently my subconscious didn’t get the memo.
I needed the eye-opener and the self-check. Thanks for that.
Glad you learned a thing or two. =)
@Creatix Tiara: Please check your facts. AMAZONS are part of Greek mythology not anything “Latina/o”.
Thanks for the nice article Savannah. Was glad to read it, but wish I had gouged my eyes out before gazing at the comments. I guess AS is just one more place that isn’t safe for women. Super thankful I didn’t submit anything to Trans*Scribe right about now.
As a cis woman who’s been working on unlearning so many cultural cues and continuing to defend against them being re-planted, I was glad to read this article. It reinforces what I’m doing in my life.
Also, I will walk away from a potential new sweetie who acts transphobically. I have ended friendships over cissexism. This isn’t to say I deserve a cookie (especially since I can buy them myself), mind. Just saying for my cis sisters to think this sort of thing through. If you’d walk away from dating a bigot over race or gender, consider transphobia as another problem on the same plane. Because it’s at least as deadly to others, if not more so.
Hey, great article. I’d just like to make one comment. I have a lot of chats in my life about ‘women and trans’ spaces. Whilst I’m sure that in a lot of cases there is a transphobic ‘trans women aren’t real women’ notion behind it there can also be the nice inclusive meaning that some folk don’t identify as women or men. I see the inclusion of ‘trans welcome’ in an event to mean they are also accepting of folk who don’t fit into the gender binary =)
I think the problem with some “women and trans” spaces is, that what they really want to say is “female assigned at birth”, but because they don’t agree with judging someone by their birth sex, they put that label on it and then struggle with what to do when trans women show up.
I think it is good if it works to include non-binary people. The test would be, whether they really accept non-binary people that were assigned male at birth. Then they would follow the “real” meaning of the label. But there it gets kind of difficult: even though I was assigned male at birth, some people who were assigned male at birth and keep a lot of their “privileged behavior” make a space a not-so-safe space for me.
One group in Hamburg made the trouble with all that transparent: they said: “everybody but cis men”. And it makes sense, because you just want to exclude the dominant group that you have trouble with outside the safe space.
Wow. I stumbled onto this article, read it with interest and had a few questions I wanted to discuss, but after reading a couple dozen recent comments…I feel completely overwhelmed and bewildered. I should add that I identify as a cisgendered bisexual woman and consider myself to be a feminist-not-otherwise-specified (I don’t adhere to any particular faction’s party line). I am accepting of transgendered people, but I remain somewhat ignorant and would like to ‘fix’ that. I have three acquaintances who are transgendered. Though I have always been very interested in gender issues, I don’t usually talk about gender with them unless they specifically bring it up, in which case I allow them to lead the discussion and I tread lightly because I don’t want to accidentally put my foot in my mouth. This means that I have a lot of unanswered questions that I haven’t felt comfortable asking anyone. I’d hoped that I could address a few things here, but the environment seems very…emotionally charged. I was not aware of the antagonistic relationship between the trans community and some feminists, and find it very distressing.
Some radfems think of us as rapists with mutilated penises created by the patriarchy to infiltrate women’s spaces and destroy feminism from within. I like to shorten all that to “transphobic.”
If you’d like to ask some TG women and men questions (some of them are touchy too, but not usually quite as riled up as some replies here), you could go to tgboards.com. It was there that someone linked me to this Autostraddle page & topic. (I already knew of Autostraddle, though, and was thrilled they picked a trans woman for this year’s calendar of queer women.)
Thanks for this article Savannah. Good to see you here on AS :)
I just read all (yes all 800 or so… my eyes are bleeding) of the comments and actually in terms of debates, IMO, lengthy as this might have been, the outcome was overwhelmingly positive compared to similar debates following similar articles (some by yourself) elsewhere on the interwebs.
Trolls will always find their way into this format of discussion because of the advantage of anonymity (obviously), but I feel as though the AS staff have done an excellent job of cultivating a safe and inclusive community here. For every troll, there were 10 other folks to jump on the comment and 10 more to hit the check mark to agree.
In any case, I really enjoy your writing wherever it is on the net and thanks for bringing the discussion (old as the inevitable following debate can be) to AS.
Thanks Dianne, this supportive comment was really sweet… xo
Hi Savannah,
I just feel the intense need to somehow leave a comment about me being a cis girl in love with a trans girl, and about us having been happily together for a few years now. I hate that there is so much transphobia. And it affects us cis partners, too. You know, we get all the transphobic comments from the people around us, they tell us things they would not tell our trans partners because they think we can have it. And I sometimes feel lonely because I don’t know of any other cis girl my age (20-30) who is in a relationship with a trans girl, and who actually fell in love with her partner during/after transition. I wish I did not have this intense need for recognition, but I do. Sometimes I get tired of reading posts about what us cis queer women need to do and how we should act. Because I think I did everything right and cissexism affects me in a bad way, too – as a ‘victim’. I guess that’s why I felt this urge to leave a comment. But it’s not a game of ‘who is most pitysome’. Anyway, if you know of any cis-trans girl couples, please write articles about them and post pictures of them. And don’t forget the partner perspective. I will soak it up.
Hugs
Marta
Dear Marta,
Tobi Hill-Meyer is putting together a dcoumentary about trans womene and their partners:
http://tobitastic.tumblr.com/post/26970247726/doing-it-again-in-depth
AFAK she is trying to get differently gendered partners on the documentary, so I am pretty sure their will be a section on cis women with trans women as well.
Hi Marta,
First of all, sorry (to everyone actually) for being so slow to get back to this recent batch of comments… this week’s kind of been all over the place.
In response to your comment itself… I get where you’re coming from, and believe me, I would love nothing more than to put together some nice story about queer women couples that involve trans women (trans women with other trans women of course would also be nice to include along with cis-trans woman couples). Maybe part of the reason why I keep writing on this topic is because I’m still looking for that partnership myself… I’m sure you’ll understand that I can’t help but write about my own experiences, of course.
But I will say that sharing some of these things and talking about them really is important from my perspective. You know, one week after the events I described in this article ( a couple days after I submitted this draft to AS, in fact) I went on a date with someone else that actually went far, far worse than the thing I talked about here…. like catastrophic, really. In that case, I met a woman who was visiting from the U.S. and a friend of hers, along with a group of people she didn’t know so well. Things seemed to be going okay-ish at first, so around midnight I agreed to stay out with them after the subway closed… basically it means I was stuck on the other side of Tokyo until 5 in the morning… I started interacting with the guys in the group more at this point, and for the rest of the evening they were misgendering me and asking me weird questions and shit like that. And somehow while all this was going on, my date didn’t notice any of it until almost the end of the night and I felt like I just couldn’t approach her about it. By then, I left the date on the verge of tears and utterly depressed… like to the point I couldn’t concentrate at work for the next couple of days I was so upset over it.
Partly, that’s an example that it’s not necessarily just a matter of someone on a date saying something weird to me, it’s also a matter of having some awareness about our surroundings, do you know what I mean? And this isn’t some obscure point, because honestly I can think of four or five examples of this kind of thing happening in this type of situation just off the top of my head. (In fact, I *really* should have included another section in this already long-ass article to discuss this exact point).
Anyways, maybe I’m totally going beyond your point here, but I guess it’s just to say that while I totally agree with you about the need to celebrate actual trans woman-cis woman couples and make them more visible in the community, I guess I kinda feel like I need to write these sort of articles in part cause maybe it helps me work through my own feelings as I’m trying to find that kind of partnership myself. Hope that kinda makes sense.
hugs, Sav.
This article and a lot of the comments kinda pissed me off. I agree with the girls who say lesbians are attracted to girls physically, which is why most wouldn’t date a transgirl with a dick. Some will, of course, but everyone has their preferences and its not right for you to look down on lesbians for not liking dick when that’s the whole point of being a lesbian. Everyone has their opinion and preferences, and to look down on lesbians for only liking cisgirls is no better than straight people looking down on gay people in general, because people can’t help who they are attracted to.
And I know someone’s going to try and reply to my comment, jumping in to call me trans phobic or some shit like people said to some of the other girls. But you’ll just sound like a real idiot because my girlfriend whom I love very much and hope to marry someday is trans. I consider her a girl but I know it’s not the same as my ex girlfriend who had a vagina, when my current girlfriend has a dick. I’m bi/pan so it doesn’t matter to me but what does annoy me is when my girlfriend gets mad that her family calls her by her male/birth name sometimes. She just came out 2 months ago, meaning her parents are still not used to it after calling her one name for 20 years. trans people need to be more forgiving of people for using the wrong labels or wrong names. I didn’t meet a trans person until I was 19. most cisgender people have no experience whatsoever with trans people or know what to say. How would we possibly know what we are saying is wrong until you tell us? My girlfriend didnt tell me she was trans at first, so right when I got used to calling her a guy name she expects me to call her a different name and see her as a girl. It’s not easy, for anyone because you associate a face with a name, whether male or female.
My point is trans people need to help cisgender people know what to say and what pronouns to use because we aren’t trans, we don’t know. My girlfriend researched it for years before she came out as trans, so she’s known for a lot longer than me or her family all the terms and background information, and she doesn’t seem to realize that. Give us a fkn break. You said in your article to have respect, well most of us don’t know it’s disrespectful to say certain things when most of us have no experience with trans people.
Yeah, having that exact discussion was kind of the whole point of the article.
To me this sounds like “It’s not that we hate you, it’s just that we think you’re so unimportant, as an entire class of people, that it’s not worth the 10 minutes it would take for us to learn basic respect.”
Sorry, but it’s not very comforting to me to be told that because I’m trans, I’m automatically in a class of people such that it isn’t worth any time to learn how to be a decent person towards me unless I spoon-feed and hand-hold you through it.
that’s the 90’s argument of various anti-oppression movements – “It’s not my responsibility to educate you”… and it really should have stayed there. either you want and contribute to a community that is awake to social justice issues or you don’t. if you just want to remain more-oppressed-than-thou and alienated, and part of a small, ghettoized community, then keep it up!
This is the information age, with information right at your fingertips. Would you expect in school, were a teacher to give you homework, that they would just give you the answers or would they get you to figure it out for yourself?
Take responsibility to learn something for yourself. There is plenty of knowledge out there waiting for somebody to come along.
Maybe to give the discussion a little positive turn, here is a small story I wrote about how a good trans/cis woman encounter could look like:
http://wunder2welt.wordpress.com/2013/03/04/two-strange-hippies/
What should I have for tea, cis-sausages, or Quorn ones?
Your mouth would be an insult to any self-respecting lady’s “sausage.” Frankly, I even feel a little sorry for the tea.
If only I could get over my Carnophobia, and discover just how fun meat can be.
Just recently I’ve met a very cute non-passing trans woman. Up to now, most trans women I’ve met were not my type, mostly because were too much conforming to society’s standards.
Anyways, I didn’t want to try to pursue a relationship with her, but as a thought experiment I imagined having sex with her and found out that it could be a lot of fun, but that I would have trouble dealing with her penis. I did have contact with penises before (not only with my own), but I have to acknowledge the fact that I am uncomfortable with handling them, even if I really like the person attached to them. That might change and wouldn’t keep me from having some kind of sex with a person I am strongly attracted to, but a difficulty is definitely there.
This made it a little easier to understand the fact that some lesbians are having trouble getting physical with pre-op trans women and that is not always connected to a lack of trans acceptance or trans respect.
Brilliant expositional work. The highlight for me, though a short focus of the article and probably less significant for many decent cis women than the concrete suggestions, is that it can positively no longer be ignored that rejecting trans women wholesale is based on bigoted assumptions akin to rejecting immigrants or a given class.
If one also accepts trans men, that really shows one’s true anti-trans colors (cissexism) and disrespect for the trans man’s identity, although he may well exploit it and feel like he’s getting over – he is a man, after all – until he realizes you’ll never stop calling him girly names and misgendering him. The sad irony is how much cis “lesbians”, especially privileged whites and academics, have reified and centered masculinity and male privilege, literally working overtime to give these men privileged access to women’s spaces and ensure trans women are left outside to freeze to death or locked up in the wrong prison…and let’s not pretend they do not know what happens.
Radscum who still insist on disgusting phallic assumptions, and bigoted divisions between groups purportedly called “lesbians” and “trans women”: We’ve tripled the concentrate. Get in the vat.
I feel sympathy for trans masculine people who waver between identities. However they owe it to women to explain themselves adequately and promote understanding, not exploit their male privilege and contribute to women being left in the cold. If you fully exploit cis women’s willingness to let you into women’s spaces, you should be, to some extent, still a woman, at least, and explain that excluding trans women would be bigoted and have violent consequences (maybe elsewhere but somewhere).
Pretty interesting article, but I couldn’t help but feel that perhaps you were being a little unfair to your dinner date.
When I read it, I felt like your reaction to the ‘sausage-fest’ comment was maybe a little extreme. I can say with 100% certainty that when she made that comment, it wasn’t in the context of your particular genitalia; it was in the context of a shared trait among a group of individuals who had treated her unfairly and sadly, it’s because that’s the physical trait that most misogynistic males call attention to when they are being misogynistic. In her mind, you were another girl; i.e., one of ‘us’ as opposed to ‘them’, and she felt comfortable expressing her hurt. You’re going to experience things like this if you want to date women, because as a people, we’ve been treated pretty badly by men.
The ladyboy comment I agree was adolescent… but you took exception to the term trans woman? You didn’t elaborate on the context so if she used that term to separate you from the rest of womankind then you’re right, she is an ass… but if that term didn’t exist to describe a certain set of traits common to an individual, folks like me, the ‘cis’ woman formerly identified as 100% sapphist just now FINALLY figuring out why none of those relationships worked, would never have been able to put a name to these feelings and desires.
I kind of think that perhaps you weren’t really that into her to begin with and maybe nit picked a little bit.
Or maybe she was just an insensitive oaf. There really isn’t enough information in the article to make that call.
Maybe it was a little of both, and that’s ok too.
I’ll agree that folks like Emma (in the comments) need to take a pill or something, because wow… vicious much? But it’s also not fair to expect that just because women as a gender tend to be more accepting and unconditional that all sapphists should be able to have a relationship with anyone who identifies as female regardless of their physical traits. Attraction is pretty abstract, but is attraction nonetheless. You can’t coerce someone into desiring you by burdening them with this perceived guilt that their ‘conformance to societal norms’ or ‘phobia’ is the only reason they don’t want to try dating you. It’s also unfair to expect us to walk on eggshells and not have discussions about the very real oppression we suffer just because you share a physical trait with the oppressors (which, again, is the furthest thing from our minds when we are having these discussions).
Some of us really want to date you, but with all the walls and rules and stuff it’s kind of discouraging. It’s almost like we’re not allowed to be women and deal with the issues that come with it because we have to sidestep around all of YOUR issues.
I hope you have had better dates since this article, and despite my disagreement with some of your positions, I’m grateful that you wrote it.
In hindsight, maybe I was being a touch sensitive on the ‘sausage fest’ thing, I’m not sure. I don’t conform to traditional genital-essentialist notions of ‘woman’ and ‘man’ though, and given the crap that society dishes out around that, yeah I am going to be kind of sensitive about that. But the real problem more so than the comment itself was that when I tried to talk to her about it, the situation didn’t get better, it got worse, very quickly. Her body language was a big part of it; like I guess she was nervous to be hanging out with me, but that came out as these odd phrasings (some of which had sexual overtones) and when I said something she was just so aloof and matter-of-fact in her responses.
Also, I didn’t take exception to the term “trans woman”, I took exception to the juxtaposition of me as a “trans woman” versus a so-called “woman woman,” which clearly implied one was a real woman and the other was not. And in all fairness to my date, she did figure out pretty quickly where she went wrong on that one when I just got silent at that point.
The word ‘cis’ exists for a reason; it’s just so that trans people aren’t classified in language as some exotic fruit.
> “But it’s also not fair to expect that just because women
> as a gender tend to be more accepting and unconditional that
> all sapphists should be able to have a relationship with anyone
> who identifies as female regardless of their physical traits.”
But that is 100% NOT my position. I guess some trans women out there have said something like that, but I don’t agree with that and never did. My position was just to say that if someone was otherwise attracted to a trans woman, but then freaked out based solely on her genitalia/history, then it is worth questioning where that comes from. Is it prejudice inherited from society? (because prejudice against trans women may be a lot stronger than you realize). Or maybe that person genuinely isn’t into her after all. I never said the answer to the question was “oh you have to sleep with her now or you’re transphobe!!” (or even implied it).
People have a right to exit any sexual encounter at any time without any reason being given. But marginalized groups also do have a right to question social trends.
> “In her mind, you were another girl; i.e., one of ‘us’ as opposed
> to ‘them’, and she felt comfortable expressing her hurt. You’re
> going to experience things like this if you want to date women,
> because as a people, we’ve been treated pretty badly by men.”
*sigh*
You assume she was coming from the ‘we both understand this oppression’ place, but then you follow this up by assuming that you need to explain it to me after all? As if I don’t know how men treat women? Three weeks ago I was with a friend on the streets in NYC, a guy was apparently checking me out or something then picked up on the fact that I was trans and proceeded to follow me down the street, muttering out loud, how he “thought I was a woman” and saying ‘tranny’ and stuff like that. He only stopped following me was after my male friend made it clear he would have a physical confrontation if he didn’t back off. He didn’t hesitate to do this right in broad daylight on a busy street, and if my friend hadn’t been there, I probably would have been attacked. And it’s not the first time I’ve been in that kind of situation. The male demand to access women’s bodies falls on trans women with some particularly weird and aggressive quirks.
(And I work in a male-dominated field, so I’m familiar with much of those dynamics as well.)
But I acknowledge that if I were to write this article again today, there are a few points that I would write differently. I probably was being over-sensitive on the sausage fest thing. I have a girlfriend now in fact, and she has accidentally said ‘tranny’ a couple times herself. I was upset, but we talked about it. It didn’t end our relationship. Further, the truth is that I’m still working out some of these things myself, and I don’t claim to have it all perfectly right. And I admit my own insecurities probably play a role in some of this too, I’m sure.
Mainly I was just hoping to open a conversation about these things, and that’s my main reason for having written this article. And I recognize that you are genuinely engaging in that conversation, and I appreciate your comment, even if I also disagree with some parts of it. I don’t think you should feel like you’re walking on eggshells if, one way or another, you were to end up dating a trans woman. I just think we should all be open to communicating about all these issues (and more).
“My position was just to say that if someone was otherwise attracted to a trans woman, but then freaked out based solely on her genitalia/history, then it is worth questioning where that comes from. Is it prejudice inherited from society? (because prejudice against trans women may be a lot stronger than you realize).”
I did just this over the last few days in my research, and I have a few thoughts. First of all, honesty among all parties is always the best policy. Your approach to dating is the right one. Be up front and honest from the beginning and work through the issues. Many trans men and women do not take that approach, and then are upset when their romantic partners are shocked and even angry months (sometimes years) down the road when the truth comes out. I feel like one loses the right to be upset when one engages in that level of deception for such a long time, and as long as the response isn’t a violent or abusive one (because no one deserves to be hurt), these partners who were possibly envisioning biological offspring and the other things that come with specific pairings have a right to feel deceived.
That leads into my second thought regarding the unique relationships between trans women and sapphists. I’ve been doing much online research, mostly because it’s interesting, but partly so I don’t make a complete fool of myself when I enter such a situation (knowledge is power!). At this point I have a pretty good grasp on the possibilities and probabilities, but that’s not going to be true for your average lesbian. I don’t think it’s so much a social prejudice as a general fear of things that they don’t have to worry about at all with a cis woman. In my research I have come to understand that the majority of trans women do not even want to acknowledge that particular defect in their anatomy, but there seems to be a fairly large number of non-ops who do, and who adjust their hormone levels so they are able to use it.
That opens some pretty scary doors that your average sapphist doesn’t have to think about, and that could be part of it.
All of a sudden, she sees this body part that represents things like pregnancy, possible need for birth control, and the possibility of her contracting specific STDs that aren’t as likely with female partners. Ideally, she would educate herself on the reality of these matters and both partners would discuss their boundaries, but for many, it’s just easier to avoid dealing with the issue entirely and find another partner. Does it suck? Yea, it kind of does. Is it because she’s just trans phobic? It’s more likely that she’s just not ready or willing to deal with the possible complications of having a female partner that has opposing anatomy. Reading into it as underlying hate might be a little disingenuous.
Finally to wrap up these thoughts, I came across a website yesterday that mentioned you specifically and one other trans woman who I guess is another blogger. I don’t remember the site name (mostly because I didn’t expect to ever return to it), but I remember one of the terms they used. ‘Pretendbians’ is probably my new favorite word. I had never read something so ridiculous in my life, but seeing things like this does trigger empathy for what you are going through and the unique challenges you face. I really hope your new relationship works out. It sounds like you’ve found someone who isn’t afraid, and in this cowardly world (I’m looking at you, NYC guy hollering in the street like an animal and Ms. Pretendbians internet bully), that’s a rare thing to find.
wow, females (however defined) just love to tear each other down! why on earth all the hysteria? why the hurt feelings when you don’t agree with one another? so so relieved to have no confusion over what I am attracted to and no need to justify it or discuss it with anyone, ever. all this interminable discussion and hate. give it a rest people, no wonder the misogynists are laughing at females all turning on one another in a sobbing screaming mob! wtf is this about me having to respect someone by being attracted to them sexually? isn’t that what sleazy male bosses have been telling us for an eternity?? i thought being a feminist in 21st C means i can relax and not be attracted to most people and won’t be insulted for telling them to please keep all genitalia and mention of it far far away…
Disagreement ≠ trolling.
“Buy Gender Diversity at Amazon! Free Shipping on Qualified Orders.” Instead of wherever one of the links was meant to send me, I got a search results page advertising this.
Sadly it’s a book and not a powder I can slip into the water supply of my conservative home town.
If you are going for finest contyents like me, only pay a visit
this website all the time because it presents quality contents, thanks
I wish there were a guide for cis women already in relationships with trans women who don’t fall into particular pitfalls. something about how to survive going through transition with them, and general relationship advice. it’s hard to come by.
I blogged about this issue, but unfortunately it’s in German: https://wunder2welt.wordpress.com/2015/10/06/ehefrauen-von-transfrauen/
maybe you can make something out with Google translate.
thanks. I translatedo it and read it, and really appreciate the response. however, I guess what I’m looking for is something a bit more in depth. I’m not struggling with acceptancestors or sexuality, or those sorts of things. it’s more just how to deal with common dynamics and struggles in that we are both still committed, but the sort of “teenage girl” stuff (her words, not mine) that come in the midst of transition, the emotional volatility, etc. most support groups and other resources I’ve come across seem to focus more on acceptance and identity struggles for the partner, and transphobia/transmisogyny, and I know a lot of people need that! but I’m wondering if there exists a blog or book or relationship guide -in any language- for folks who are well beyond that stuff and just want to work on having a really healthy relationship within the cis woman and trans woman sphere…
Don’t know if that is more along the lines of what you are looking for, but if you haven’t read it, I’d recommend Helen Boyd’s stuff. I have only read her piece in the anthology Nobody Passes, and her first book might be more about the issues you have already managed, but maybe there is something you can get out of her writings. This is her blog:
http://www.myhusbandbetty.com
Can you give any examples, longoria, of what kind of information you are looking for? For me, I really miss something like that, too. I am a cis queer woman who got into a relationship with a trans queer woman, when she almost finished her transition. What I miss is information about sex, as her body parts are different and respond different than what’s in most sex ed, though there might be a psychological factor there as well. And when we just got together I had problems with dealing with too-curious questions from friends, and my own philosophical questions about who she was, because it felt so strange that she once looked entirely different yet was still the same person. I was also really nervous about saying or doing something offensive. Those things kind of solved themselves through the years, not automatically, but through talking and thinking them through. For now sex is actually the only matter still left, that I would like to talk to other post-partners or couples about.
Nela: I have put together some ressources about sex with trans people here:
https://wunder2welt.wordpress.com/2014/03/24/trans-sexuality/
I have more of a question then comment, and I apologize first incase I use the wrong terms or sound offensive because is not my intention. I am a cisfemale (I hope I’m using that term correctly) I am attracted to women, very feminine girlie women, I am also attracted to men. My question is I’d like to date a woman who still has a penis but I have no idea how to find this. I hope i don’t sound like an idiot, im very attracted to the idea of having the best of both worlds (in my opinion of course). Can anyone help guide me in this quest?
Meeting lesbian trans women shouldn’t be hard. You’ll find them in all non-trans-exclusionary lesbian spaces, IRL or online. The challenge is that most trans women want to be seen as women first, being trans is for us a handicap at worst and some specific attribute that we accept and maybe are a little proud of at best. So if you are looking especially for trans women, because you like penis or even because you like men, you will like parts of us that we usually don’t like and if you like us as “men”, you are not respecting our gender.
My hunch is that your best bet is to look for women who are really proud of their transness and for amab non-binary people. That would probably the best match.
.
I am a cis-woman attracted to other women of all kinds — except for women who might display what it is typically considered “masculine attributes”. I, myself, don’t feel neither masculine or feminine — some days I think I look sexy with boobs, most days I think my shirts would fit better if I could just get those things off of me. When my partner calls me princess, something doesn’t feel right about it and I correct her with “No, I’m your Prince” but then again, I love it when she says “mi reina” — “my queen” in spanish and I would never want her to call me King. I am an “in-between” and have always felt that way ever since I was little. Before I knew the gender identity lingo, I called myself a “creature” — an alien — someone who can not be bound and will always be in a state of flux in regards to my gender expression. I have, in fact, been attracted to a woman that later told me they were trans, and I had to deal with what that brought up. The anatomy — for me — has always mattered in terms of my partner, as I had significant gag reflexes at the thought of a penis inside me. I think a lot of people with vaginas have probably felt this way LOL HELLLOOOOO! But I was young and still traumatized by all the experiences I had with those peeny-weenies. But then I discovered the joy of penetration — and I realized it wasn’t the PENIS I was turned off by it was the MASCULINITY. Personally, masculinity is a scourge on the planet and should be completely dismantled. But maybe I’m going too far. Anyhow, I often have queer women who are more masculine than me flirt / hit on me — and then I have to be like, “yo, dude, we are two sides of the same battery, can’t you see?” Masculine cis-women & cis men are the only people who have ever been shocked I wasn’t attracted to them. But just because I often date cis-women, doesn’t mean I’m solely interested in Vaginas. Actually, I really DO want to date more trans women, but they don’t like me — a cis-woman. They want a cis-man and if not, then maybe they’ll date a trans dude. But never me. Part of me feels like maybe I can’t make them feel woman enough without being a masculine man? But all that to say, is that it goes both ways — I’m also being judged on my genitalia and/or non-binary gender expression.
I am a cis-woman attracted to other women of all kinds — except for cis-women who might display what it is typically considered “masculine attributes”. I, myself, feel neither masculine or feminine — some days I think I look sexy with boobs, most days I think my shirts would fit better if I could just get those things off of me. When my partner calls me princess, something doesn’t feel right about it and I correct her with “No, I’m your Prince” but then again, I love it when she says “mi reina” — “my queen” in spanish and I would never want her to call me King. I am an “in-between” and have always felt that way ever since I was little. Before I knew the gender identity lingo, I called myself a “creature” — an alien — someone who can not be bound and will always be in a state of flux in regards to my gender expression. I have, in fact, been attracted to a woman that later told me they were trans, and I had to deal with what that brought up. The anatomy — for me — has always mattered in terms of my partner, as I had significant gag reflexes at the thought of a penis inside me. I think a lot of people with vaginas have probably felt this way LOL HELLLOOOOO! But I was young and still traumatized by all the experiences I had with those peeny-weenies. But then I discovered the joy of penetration — and I realized it wasn’t the PENIS I was turned off by it was the MASCULINITY. Personally, masculinity is a scourge on the planet and should be completely dismantled. But maybe I’m going too far. Anyhow, I often have queer women who are more masculine than me flirt / hit on me — and then I have to be like, “yo, dude, we are two sides of the same battery, can’t you see?” Masculine cis-women & cis men are the only people who have ever been shocked I wasn’t attracted to them. But just because I often date cis-women, doesn’t mean I’m solely interested in Vaginas. Actually, I really DO want to date more trans women, but they don’t like me — a cis-woman. They want a cis-man and if not, then maybe they’ll date a trans dude. But never me. Part of me feels like maybe I can’t make them feel woman enough without being a masculine man? But all that to say, is that it goes both ways — I’m also being judged on my genitalia and/or non-binary gender expression.
You probably had a bad sample of trans women. I am trans and often attracted to masculine of center women and almost never to men, trans or not.
I love this article. As a lesbian identifying trans woman, trying to date has been a nightmare. I have been single without a single date in 5 years despite having had my surgeries. I just can’t find a woman interested in me. I’m either just friendship material or assumptions about my body are made as soon as they find out I’m trans.