Hey, y’all. It’s shea. A couple of weeks ago, my wife and I drove across the country back to the East Coast for a quick teaching gig. Along the way, we ate crappy gas station snacks, belted out early 2000s hits, and yes – did this extensive interview with my S.O. which offers just a glimpse into the wild, beautiful ride that has been our last seven years together. Buckle up and enjoy!

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shea: I’ve started. Should I do an interview, a real interview?

Jane: Sure. Why not?

shea: shea wesley martin reporting live from I-81 North.

Jane: That’s not how you do it, babe. You’re supposed to say “I’m recording, the date, who was present…”

shea: Oh, okay. shea wesley martin on Friday, July…

Jane: I don’t know the date.

shea: On I-81 with Jane and Mabel the Pig. Just outside of Mohegan Sun Arena where Jane has just revealed that she saw the great Sarah McLachlan – known to me only by the song that she sings on those animal commercials.

Jane: That was the first time I openly wept at a concert. It was very weird. But we’re not here to talk about that. Let’s get on to these questions now that we’ve had our proper introduction.

shea: This is going to be an interesting ride.

How’d you meet / get together? (Include how long you knew each other before becoming romantically involved.)

Jane: So first – I’m a queer, cis woman and my pronouns are she /her. And how did we meet? Well, actually, so we did Teach for America back in 2015. I was on staff that summer and you were just starting to teach. I actually saw you before they saw me. I went and Facebook stalked.

shea: Stalker!

Jane: I Facebook stalked, whatever. I was looking for my queer people, people who I could have friendships with. I don’t know if I was looking for a relationship or anything, but I was looking for my queer people [who were joining the program in Florida].

shea: Well, how did you know I was queer?

Jane: Well, I guessed. Actually, no. You had pictures with you and your ex.

shea: Oh, okay.

Jane: So, but at that point, I was like, “They could be a friend, even though they’re dating someone, they could be a cool friend.” And then I found out you were moving in with [roomate]. And I was like, “Okay, that [roommate] doesn’t like me, but that’s fine. We’ll see.”

shea: Can you describe my roommate to the readers, because I think that’s important… You can’t just say [roommate].

Jane: She was 65, a self-proclaimed Butch dyke who had girlfriends in all these different cities and would refer to the girlfriends by their city names, like Phoenix and Sarasota.

shea: She was an absolute mess – a legend and also ridiculous.

Jane: Indeed. So, I found you that way. We met for the first time, probably about a month and a half later but I was on staff and I was really just focusing on trying to be a good mentor. And I knew that you were in a relationship.

shea: This is a very different story from the one that I tell and you know this. I fell for you before we even talked when I saw you across that room on the first day of that institute. You were handing out lunch boxes and just being so joyful. I had no idea if you were queer, taken, or even from the same region as me, but I was like “who is this girl?!” And then you ignored me all summer while I was trying to feel you out – so rude!

Jane: And that’s why I’m here telling my story. Enough of yours because everyone hears your damn story. “I ignored you [Blah Blah blah].” I ignored you because once I found out you were interested, I was like, “Okay, this could be something real and I don’t want to f*ck it up. So I’m going to wait till we get back to Jacksonville.” Because we were in Houston, Texas just for the pre-service summer program before we got back [to Florida] and I thought, “When we get back, I’ll feel it out. See what their relationship looks like,” because I was really confused about that.

shea: I know and by that time, I thought you were not interested at all.

Jane: Yes.

shea: You were ignoring me. So when I asked you out to dinner, I asked you as a friend first. I had no idea that anything else was in the cards.

Jane: Well, so I replied – I wanted to make sure I knew. I was like, “Is this a date date? Or is this a friend date?” And whatever the answer was going to be, I was excited about it.

shea: That was the best trip to Marshall’s ever.

Jane: Marshall’s?

shea: Yeah. I went to Marshall’s to buy a lamp the day I asked you out – That gold lamp you have in your office right now. On the way out, I texted you and asked you to dinner. And you asked if it was a friend date or a date date.

Jane: Well, I had no idea so I wanted to be sure! And then you were late for the first date! That’s not part of the question, but I just wanted to say that happened.

shea: Time is a social construct. It’s not real.

Jane: [Rolls eyes and smiles] What’s our next question?

What are your three big astrological signs? How do we feel about that?

Jane: We? As two people?

shea: Yes – us.

Jane: Well, my sun is Capricorn. My moon is Aries and my ascendant sign is Aquarius.

shea: Did you look these up?

Jane: I mean, they’re on my Co-Star. I reviewed what they mean a little bit because…

shea: Today?

Jane: Yes, today, because I don’t actually care that much but I knew you would ask.

shea: Ah.

Jane: When I was younger, I was very much into astrology. I was into a lot of new-age stuff – energy work, numerology. And then I don’t know what happened but there was an invalidation of it somewhere. It was probably when I went to college because I was a scientist and this idea of “pseudoscience” is not something that [most scientists] consider to be real. So I think that’s probably when I disengaged from new-age stuff.

shea: It’s interesting because I feel like I also never really engaged in it until recently, but I don’t think it’s because of science. I think it’s because of my religious upbringing. Growing up, it was definitely positioned as the opposite of Christianity. Not Satanic per se, but I hear my grandmother’s voice in my head saying it’s evil or not real.

Jane: I also think astrology has become very…I don’t want to say trendy in younger communities but –

shea: It’s definitely “in.”

Jane: I mean, I got asked about it in a job interview

shea: That was weird though.

Jane: The person asked what my signs were and at the time, honestly, I didn’t know. The interviewer was very much like, “Oh, interesting.” I felt like I was very much judged for not having my top three right off the top of my head.

shea: These days, it feels it’s very queer. People are like, “I’m queer. What are your signs?” And I’ve met some snooty, hipster people who are like, “I don’t use that app. I use…”

Jane: I’m not that cool.

shea: I don’t even know all of the information you gave. I know I’m a Taurus. When people, mostly queers ask me, I just open Co-Star and hand them my phone. It’s so much easier.

Jane: But you are very much a Taurus though. The stereotypical Taurus – very stubborn. Not that I know a ton about astrology, but…

shea: I also like to be really cozy and comfortable.

Jane: I am very much a Capricorn. I’m very driven. I want to do what I want to do, in the way I want to do it.

shea: Yes. Which it’s interesting because I’m stubborn. And so together we are quite the stubborn combination sometimes.

Jane: Yeah.

shea: But it works.

Jane: It does.

What do you enjoy most about your relationship?

Jane: I think that I have never been in a relationship, whether it be a friendship, romantic, or even a familial relationship – I’ve never been able to be my true self with someone. And that is something that I find comes very easily with you. I am weird. I am very strange and I like to be strange. And I like to be almost like, I don’t know, kid-like sometimes in my weirdness. I’ll make weird noises and we giggle about it for a half hour and it becomes a crux in our relationship, this weird noise that I made for weeks. Like that time that we were at the market and you made a weird noise at the people when they were walking away. That’s special to me – just to be able to laugh about it and be like, “That weird thing happened.” And we use that thing that other people might be embarrassed about to say, “it’s something that we’re going to bond over and giggle”

shea: I think that was probably my favorite realization in our relationship [when I realized that you were also weird]. I just thought you were hot, really smart, and just fun and all the things. I don’t remember when it was but all of a sudden, I realized you were weird and it was like the best surprise ever. Because I was always weird. And I do think there is something so incredibly freeing about being with someone who you don’t have to mask yourself for.

Jane: Well I had to mask so many pieces of myself to feel worthy of other humans’ attention like whether it be my queerness or whether I would have to pretend to hate my body. There were just a ton of different pieces that I never got to show everyone or even show one person all the pieces. It’s nice to be able to have that now

shea: To just be and know that the person’s going to love you no matter what. It’s also terrifying to be completely raw and vulnerable, but I think it is just fantastic.

Jane: Yeah. I agree.

What hurdles or obstacles have you overcome together in your relationship? These can be within your relationship or things that you’ve faced together.

Jane: I think that this is a question that we’re still grappling with as a couple. To be totally transparent, sex has been something that has been – there have been a lot of ups and downs throughout our sex life. I think when we first met probably for about the first six months of our relationship, we could not get enough.

shea: Yes and also the first few months, but they were also unexpectedly difficult.

Jane: So I had a cancer scare and a full hysterectomy when we had just been dating for about three months. That changed a lot of my sex drive/desire. And I mean, if you’re comfortable with me talking about this part [shea nods] I think also you are learning and coming to terms with gender and your dysphoria has been challenging. Did I say that correctly?

shea: Yeah.

Jane: There’s been a lot of shifting and you learning or understanding what your wants are combined with my pulling back of sexual desire because my chemistry was completely off. We have had a lot of ebbs and flows that haven’t necessarily aligned all the time. And I mean, that’s probably been the hardest, I think we’re also learning about intimacy in other ways beyond sex. And at the same time, I mean, our sex life isn’t dead. In fact, we’re going to go have sex in a couple of hours.

shea: Ha yes definitely! But I do think that’s been difficult. Really hard. It’s almost as if we both are having to get to know our bodies again and redefine what it means and doing that in a society and even in a queer culture that wants to define what good sex is or “a good sex life” is or “healthy” in a certain way. It’s complicated. I also think that even though it’s been hard, I’m grateful that I get to do this with you because we have such a solid foundation.

Jane: But I think that also goes into the next question, which I believe is about monogamy and polyamory. Correct?

Where do you locate your relationship on the monogamy/polyamory spectrum? What philosophies do you have around how you handle monogamy/polyamory? How do you feel this impacts your relationship?

shea: Maybe. Yes. It is. Look at you memorizing the questions.

Jane: No, I just, I mean, they’re so very closely related. I think that one of the most difficult times in my whole life was when we opened our relationship because I think you had some exploring to do and also needed to be affirmed. I just wasn’t able to do it. We did that for – I don’t know what, probably about seven, eight months? You were exploring. I attempted to talk to someone and I think she and I might have had a genuine connection, but I felt like I was cheating and I could not get past what the social construct that I grew up in was. And that was really… I mean, it was really, it wasn’t me just in my feelings. There was consistent stress in my body. I went on to some medications to try and counteract what was happening with my body. And I think that was important for us to do. But we’ve also talked about like, I am not built for that. And I am envious of people who can tap into that part of their mental clarity, but I can’t get through what I’ve been socialized and that’s okay. And I think that was probably a step we needed to take. Do you want to say more on that?

shea: No, I think that it was, and it was also when the pandemic was happening. It was heavy and super complicated.

Jane: Because we didn’t know how to do it.

shea: And the world was falling apart. We also got that couple’s therapist who was horrible and not.

Jane: She wasn’t horrible.

shea: If you’re reading this, you’re not horrible but just not for us.

Jane: Therapy also gave us pathways to heal a lot.

shea: I think that everything is a learning process or not even learning but unlearning. I learned a lot and I look forward to continuing to grow and develop with you in our sexual relationship together.

Jane: To be continued in a few hours. Just kidding. Anyways, what’s our next question?

What’s your living situation like? How often do you see each other and why?

Jane: Well, we live together in the same apartment with Mabel the Pig, our pup.

shea: She’s old. And she has like six teeth.

Jane: We spend a lot of time together. We eat meals together on a regular basis. I think that was something that was instilled in me as a child — you eat meals as a family.

shea: Same.

Jane: And then it was also instilled in me that when something was broken, you stop spending as much dedicated time together.

shea: Interesting.

Jane: Yes, very interesting. And I’m not saying that is the fact, but that was what was instilled in me. That’s what I saw in my family. When we stopped having meals together, I started to see the splintering, But while working mostly from home during the past two years or so, we’ve got to spend a lot of time together. We got to have a lot of work dates.

shea: It was really interesting. Because I feel like if you were in a relationship during the pandemic during isolation, it either broke you or –

Jane: Made you.

shea: Yeah – solidified your bond. I think I enjoyed – most of the time I enjoyed being at home with you during the pandemic – getting to see you teach, moving to Vermont, and being able to go see the sunset after. Before the pandemic, we were both teaching and just didn’t have a lot of quality time with each other. And so it was almost as if we’re given this gift amongst a ton of… in a shitstorm.

Jane: But it also gave us the space to work through a lot of that stuff where if we were both teaching and we had opened our relationship, we probably would’ve wound up divorced because we weren’t forced to have tough conversations or be in uncomfortable situations. [In the pandemic], we couldn’t escape them.

shea: You woke up and the problems were still there and you couldn’t leave the house. And so it was like, “either we’re going to break up or we’re going to fight through it together.” And that’s what we did. I think more so than just partners or a married couple, we’ve been best friends for the past seven years because we started dating in Florida and got married three days after Trump. And so it was like, you were my person in Northern Florida who I felt safe around when we had Confederate flags and Trump flags going up around our neighborhood.

Jane: Yes. And I think that living situation probably when we first started dating was codependent.

shea: Absolutely.

Jane: And I mean, I think I maybe even still a little touch codependent but at the same time, we are not afraid to venture out and try new things. Like you being involved in the writing community in Columbus and the creative community, a coffee shop that you love. And that is a very separate thing that you have compared to my creative community, which I tend to maybe bring you along, but.

shea: Just because you need help putting up a tent.

Jane: No one can put up a tent by themselves or if you do, please let me know. Put a YouTube tutorial up. I’d love to learn how.

shea: So we live together but we have separate [home] offices.

Jane: Yes which is really actually great – it’s like my own little haven to go into and paint and be creative.

shea: That’s beautiful.

How do you all share expenses or work out finances? How do you share or split up labor in the relationship? Can you talk about why that is?

Jane: Everything is together. As for Finances?

shea: I think we just –

Jane: We communicate constantly about it.

shea: There are some couples who keep their finances separate.

Jane: We don’t do that.

shea: But we keep it together and I think that my relationship before you was very abusive, emotionally, financially, all the things.

Jane: Financially abusive. Absolutely.

shea: I think that I was really nervous about combining everything with you. I was very nervous about moving my stuff in and feeling like I had my own space and everything.

Jane: You needed to make sure you had independence because you’d never had it before. And so that was something that I think we were very intentional about. As far as splitting up labor, it’s just about who has the capacity. We discuss it. Like if you don’t have the capacity, you let me know. And then we figure it out because nothing can be 50/50 all the time. You’ve got to be able to figure out if you’re partners with someone. Sometimes you have to give 70% when they can only give 30%. Or sometimes things just don’t get done and you’ve got to accept that. But they will – when you’ve got the capacity again.

shea: And I think there’s a lot of learning and working through trying to remember not to harbor resentment when you feel like you’re doing more or you’re offering more and just communicating about it.

Jane: Yes. [You] folded a lot of laundry the past couple of days as we were getting ready to go on a big trip and I think if there was like a, “I need you to do something,” you would have told me or said, “I can only do this for this much longer and it needs to get done. Can you help me out with that?”

shea: It’s taken me a while though because I don’t like asking for help.

Jane: But there’s that safety there. That when you do ask for it, it’s well received and I thank you for telling me.

Do you have kids, pets, plants, all three? Do you not currently have, but want any of these things? Why? Are you in agreement?

Jane: We have Mabel the pig, who is a six-year-old adopted little pibble that we have. Please make sure that you spell P-I-B-B-L-E. That’s very important. Mabel is awesome. We’ve got an abundance of plants.

shea: We do. We just procured quite a few.

Jane: And your favorite plant is a tiny little cactus. No bigger than a thumb. And you’ve named it…

shea: PEENELOPE.

Jane: Like penis e, but Peenelope. Anyways, we have lots and lots of plants. No children at this moment. I think this is something where we are constantly putting our careers first and that’s okay. Because that’s what we’re choosing.

shea: Eventually, we want to adopt – we’re very adamant about adopting – school-aged kids who are older, more than one kid. Siblings because we know that they’re less likely to get adopted and –

Jane: So they can stay together is really important because familiarity is important.

shea: But I think that the last thing we talked about was not necessarily our careers, but ourselves. Basically prioritizing taking care of ourselves – physically, emotionally, mentally, all of the things before we bring children into it. Because I know myself and I know you as well. And I know that if we had children in our house we would put them first and not prioritize our own wellbeing, which is…

Jane: A newfound thing that we’ve just started to learn how to actually put ourselves first.

shea: And I do think when you have children. that’s often your responsibility – to take care of that child.

Jane: And that responsibility becomes greater than your feeling for yourself. And I don’t think either one of us is ready to say we are prepared to take care of someone else over ourselves.

shea: But I think that we would.

Jane: That’s the problem though.

shea: I think that if someone said, “Tomorrow you’re going to get children and you need to take care of them,” we would drop everything and we would take care of those children.

Jane: But that’s the problem. And I know that many parents out there will be like, “You don’t get to take care of yourself fully again until…”

shea: They’re 18 and out of the house.

Jane: I mean, but realistically how many kids really leave at 18? Either way. We’ve also decided that we want to wait because we don’t know what part of the country we’re going to be in after this. And if children have familiarity and comfort in one part of the country where we adopt them, we don’t want to move them two years later.

shea: Uproot them.

Jane: Yes. So we will wait to find out wherever you, my brilliant partner, get a tenure-track position. Fingers crossed. We don’t need fingers. You’re really brilliant. Of course, we need our fingers. Why would I say something like that?

shea: I’m just crossing my toes instead.

Jane: Yes.

shea: Do you want to talk about LilyPad?

Jane: When we met, one of our first conversations before I invited you over to the house was about LilyPad. I was like, “How are you with dogs?” And you were like, “Great.” And then I say “ I have this 60-pound pit bull. She is red-nosed. She is very cute. Her name is LilyPad.” And LilyPad comes to meet you of course, she is very skeptical the first time.

shea: It’s also 1:00 AM.

Jane: It’s very early in the morning. I usually don’t stay out very late.

shea: No. Never.

Jane: LilyPad was our first dog and she moved with us from Florida to Massachusetts, to Vermont. And two days before we were supposed to move [to Ohio], we found out she had cancer and had to be put down that day. And it was the hardest thing. We’d both lost parents. And for me, this has been the most significant loss of my life because…not significant; it’s the most painful. Because it was just absolute, pure love. There was no complication to our relationship. There wasn’t a question about whether she loved me or she loved us. She was our baby.

shea: I also didn’t grow up with pets. I mean, besides the fish that died really quickly. I think I just… Whenever we talked about kids, we would be like, “LilyPad and the kids.” I just always assumed that LilyPad would be wherever we were. And I know that’s a very naive assumption as now a person who has experienced dog loss. But it was just kind of weird. I had known LilyPad almost as long as I’d known you.

Jane: Well, and I think that also now, as we’re talking about adoption in three years, we have to be realistic that Mabel might not be around because she’s already six. She might not meet our children.

shea: And I also think that LilyPad seemed really spry and Mabel does not.

Jane: Mabel’s a little lump. Mabel’s like, “I will nap for the next three hours.” And she’s fine. Anyways, there’s our children and pets and plants.

How would you describe the sex you have together (if you have sex)? Do you believe in lesbian bed death, and has it or do you think it will visit your relationship? What haven’t you done together but want to?

Jane: So I think we talked about it earlier, we were very active.

shea: It was just…

Jane: It took over our lives. There was nothing, but, it was like, “You’re going out to dinner, sex in the car before you go.”

shea: Oh my gosh. You know what it reminded me of, remember in Twilight when Bella first gets…when they first get married and they’re like, “We haven’t seen you all in a month or whatever?” That’s what it reminds me of. Our friends were just like, “We’ll invite you, but we know you’re not going to come or you’re going to come late.”

Jane: Because we’re cumming. Sorry, not sorry. I think as we talked about before, that has shifted and we’re learning about intimacy in different ways.

shea: And I honestly think, I mean, I think that the sex feels better to me.

Jane: Because we both know.

shea: Because we know and we’re giving ourselves time to process and actually acknowledge the feelings that are good and the feelings that feel unsettling and trying to work through that. And I think that sex – it just feels good. I don’t feel as much pressure as I did early on in our relationship or before I met you to perform a certain way or to show up a certain way in sex.

Jane: And I think because of that, I don’t think we’ll ever have bed death. I do think it is real. I definitely think that there are real things that keep people uncomfortable, from having conversations or the ability of… We talked about it before, giving so much to other people. I think that one of the things that came out of our conversation is we give so much to other people that we don’t save time for ourselves or each other. And especially when it comes to intimacy and or sex. We need to make sure that we’re intentional, that we are… If, we have to get to the point that we schedule a time to have sex or we schedule a time for intimacy, we have to do that because the world doesn’t give a shit. Corporate America, capitalism doesn’t give a shit whether we want to have sex or not. The world says, “No, you need to get done what you have agreed to do for X, Y, or Z.”

shea: And I think that “bed death” could be a thing, but I don’t think it’s just lesbians.

Jane: No, I don’t either.

shea: And I think that’s something that I just want to make clear.

Jane: I think that people who are queer have a very strong self=understanding and therefore probably name it more than cishet people do.

shea: And I also think that… I agree. I think that there’s self-knowing, frankness, and clarity when it comes to queerness and sex. But I also wonder if that’s because queerness oftentimes is kind of released from the idea of having to think about sex as procreative activity.

Jane: It’s about feeling good and about making your partner feel good. Or partners.

shea: So, how would you describe the sex that we have with adjectives?

Jane: Adjective is a…

shea: Describes a —

Jane: Yes. I know what an adjective is. Damn. I mean, it’s fun. I think that depending on our mood, it’s very steamy. I think that, how do I put this into an adjective? I think it can be very royal and I think electrifying. Because whatever.

shea: Oh my gosh. Do you remember Iceland?

Jane: Oh my God. Yes.

shea: You just said electrifying. And I just thought about that.

Jane: Well, so we used to have this Hitachi wand. We do not have it anymore. This is why. It was a knockoff, Hitachi. It wasn’t real.

shea: Wait, it wasn’t real? You had a knockoff?

Jane: Well, of course, I did. Because those things are expensive.

shea: What?!

Jane: And I probably had that for a very long time.

shea: Oh that was a newer one.

Jane: Anyways. So when we were in Iceland for Christmas right before the pandemic started, we needed a… What is it called? A converter [for the Hitachi].

shea: We had the converter!

Jane: But I think that something happened when we plugged in. The converter would short-circuit, but it didn’t just short circuit in our hotel room. It was the entire floor! And so I think we probably tried two or three times to try and get it to not short circuit the floor.

shea: So we just kept changing the outlets.

Jane: And we’re like, “Maybe this time it’ll be better.” No.

shea: So basically we’re in the middle of sex and the power goes out and then obviously the vibrator stops working.

Jane: But I would call down to the front desk and I would be like, “I don’t know why, but our power is out again.”

shea: And then it turns back on. And then instead of being like, “It turned back on, we’re not in trouble. We’re good.” We’re like, “Okay. It turned back on. Let us now plug the vibrator into another outlet in Iceland, in this Icelandic hotel.”

shea: We’re not going to be allowed in Iceland anymore.

Jane: That’s fine.

shea: No, it’s not!

Jane: We’ve been twice.

shea: I know. All right. So, yes it is electrifying. You didn’t answer what haven’t you done together, but want to? Is there something that you can think of?

Jane: I can’t. Can you? I think all the things we want to do, we’ve done before.

shea: I don’t necessarily think that what I was going to say is actually something I want to do. So now I’m trying to think. No, I don’t… I don’t think there’s anything that I would like to do with you that we haven’t already done.

Do you think your relationship will more or less continue to exist as it currently is? Why?

Jane: I mean, I think we’re in a growth stage, so I think we will continue to grow together. We continue to learn about ourselves. And therefore our relationship has to evolve because we need to accommodate the new pieces of ourselves and of each other that we’re learning. But I think that we’ve done that pretty well for the past two, three, four years. Before that, I think we might have even done it together, but I think there’s been a significant jump in that learning curve since the pandemic started.

shea: I don’t ever think we said this? But we’re married. So we’ll continue doing that!

Jane: Yes – we got married three days after Trump..

shea: So we met in 2015. We got married in November 2016.

Jane: Wait, can I tell them about the proposal?

shea: Yes. Sure.

Jane: I proposed at a Valentine’s Day dance with your students who brought over roses with a little memory attached to each one. And then I came out with a white rose and the ring and I couldn’t even say anything. I just opened the box and I was like, “Will you marry me?”

shea: It was so adorable and Mariah Carey was playing. It was really cute.

What would you say are your most fundamental differences?

Jane: I think that when it comes to processing, learning, teaching – you tend to be very drawn to words, written words. While I tend to be someone who is more auditory and kinesthetic. I need to do things hands-on and I need to build something while you’re like, “let me write this beautiful piece of writing to process.” Would you agree with that?

shea: Yeah. It’s funny because when you started off with processing, I thought you were going to talk about the way that we process conflict, where you are a person who…

Jane: I need to have a conversation.

shea: You want to have an immediate conversation and talk out your feelings about what just happened. And I’m like, “I’m just going to be quiet.”

Jane: You’re like, “I need to figure out why I’m feeling the way I’m feeling.” And I think that’s probably due to the abuse that you suffered from your past partner.

shea: And actually I think part of it is when we first met. I still had a guard up and was really scared, angry, and also grieving my mom’s death. When I would get into conflicts, my tendency was to try to throw a dagger immediately to hurt the person before they could hurt me. I learned that if I don’t say anything, just sit, and try to process why I’m upset then I can better articulate how I’m feeling.

Jane: And at the same time you don’t have to hurt the person.

shea: So, I don’t just spew out hate because I’m hurt. I sit in it and then later I’m able to have a more productive and honest conversation, not just trying to think “how can I protect myself?”

Jane: And I think that wait time also has given me the same opportunity to process what I’m thinking about. I agree. I think that’s a big difference for us.

shea: You did not mention the biggest difference.

Jane: That I am white and you are black. That’s it. I mean, yes. That’s a thing.

shea: There was this one point where we were working together at the same school and…

Jane: I was substitute teaching while I was in grad school.

shea: And the kids would call us the Black Mrs. Martin and the white Mrs. Martin because that was the only difference.

Jane: At the time you hadn’t come out as non-binary and we are both round.

shea: …both teachers with the last name “Martin.” So they would just be like, “No, the other Mrs. Martin.” And I’d be like, “But what do you mean the other one? What?” And the kids would say, “The white one. The Caucasian lady.”

Jane: Oh yeah. They called me ‘the Caucasian lady.’ “Is that Caucasian lady your wife?”

shea: It was very cute. I’m going to call you Caucasian for the rest of the day.

Do you all have any shared dreams/goals for the future or each other? What are these?

Jane: I think we do have a shared dream. I just think the culmination of it is, I don’t know. We want to have space. Whether it be a school, a retreat center, some space for queer kids to be able to exist and thrive. I think we were listening to a book on tape earlier.

shea: Bitter.

Jane: But what’s the author’s name?

shea: Akwaeke Emezi.

Jane: Thank you. And this author was writing about this place.

shea: Eucalyptus.

Jane: Yes. Eucalyptus. Where kids were able to be their creative selves and hold their identities true and not be afraid. And that’s the kind of space that I want to create. We have talked about so many different iterations of what that looks like a Christmas tree farm where you can have ice skating…to a school, to a maker center, to a summer camp, to fostering kids. Just having a place where queer kids are able to be in this space that we hold because neither one of us had that as a kid. We didn’t have a place where we were fully ourselves.

shea: Well, I mean, obviously [most spaces] weren’t designed to be.

Jane: No.

shea: I agree with that shared dream. I think I just want us to thrive separately and together and figure out how to do that holistically because there’s so much in this world that doesn’t want us to do that. The setup for us not to be able to do that. And I feel like, yeah…

Jane: We’re both very creative and nurturing. And we’re both very equity centered when it comes to how we interact with other people and just to be able to have hold and become a part of a community., because I know how driven we are and I know that will be something that happens in our future.

shea: That’ll be really cool.

Jane: It will be whatever it is.

shea: Whatever it is.

Jane: Watch out.

shea: The Martins are coming for you.

What piece of pop culture do you share or what piece of pop culture reminds you of your relationship? What’s your movie or your show or your book or your song?

shea: We really liked watching Sex Education and Love, Victor. I mean, but the thing that’s like… We don’t really watch TV like that. Sometimes we do the choreographed or non-choreographed dances to Justin Bieber. Is that pop culture?

Jane: Yes. But I also think social media presence, which clearly you have a bigger social media presence than I do, but I also think that’s part of pop culture. Twitter is pop culture.

shea: Is it?

Jane: But do you think that you’re a little trendy, hipster starting something new?

shea: No. I feel like I never know about [new] things. People will be like, “Did you see so- and-so’s new outfit?” And I’m like, “I don’t know who this person is.” Or they’ll be like, “Did you hear about this show getting canceled or this song?” And I’m like, “I don’t know.”

Jane: You are a content creator. You don’t absorb other people’s stuff. I know.

shea: No, but I feel like just normal TV shows, people will live-tweet a TV show or a movie or whatever. And I’m just like, “I don’t know what that is.” And I have mostly attributed it to the fact that I am as the kids call me, “an old” or “an elder.”

Jane: I agree.

shea: I mean, I think we like Justin Bieber. We don’t really agree on which albums are better.

Jane: You like his new stuff. And I like –

shea: No, that’s not true. I like swoosh-hair, old Bieber. And you like the “Boyfriend”/”Holy” Bieber.

Jane: I like “Peaches” Bieber, but I only like his music. I don’t like his politics.

shea: His politics? Is he a politician?

Jane: Never mind. You know what I mean. The appropriation is a lot.

shea: Well, people always call you a cartoon character.

Jane: No. You call me a cartoon character.

shea: And other people have agreed with me. And I feel like maybe we are already the characters. Maybe, we are pop culture. Maybe this is all just a movie of our lives and we’re just living in it. Okay, okay – what’s our movie or show or book or song?

Jane: Well, let’s start with our song. Talk about the three wedding songs.

shea: We have three wedding songs. We couldn’t decide for a while, but we have this song that’s really special to us that came out I think right after we started dating.

Jane: We were lying in bed and we had just said our “I love yous.”

shea: We heard the song. We were like, “This is so sweet.” That ended up being our wedding song. And that is, “Like I’m Going to Lose You” by Megan Trainor and John Legend. And then two other songs that maybe I like better than that song. You also like them better.

Jane: Well, yes, now I do.

shea: So, one of the other songs was “Adorn” by Miguel.

Jane: It was just very trendy at the time we had a lack of comfort with having a song that was very common for other people to have.

shea: Yes. My favorite song of all three is one of the final tracks on an album by Corinne Bailey Rae called “High”. It’s beautiful. Now, what about our books or reading?

Jane: I love when you read me books when we go for long drives because I tend to be the driver because I like to be in control. Surprise.

shea: Oh my gosh. We’re circling back to your little, what do they call? The stars sign.

Jane: Yes. A Capricorn. Astrology. That’s what that’s called. Now movies or TV shows. I mean, when it comes to TV, I think… I don’t know.

shea: We don’t watch the same thing.

Jane: We really don’t.

shea: I watch literally the same thing over and over again. And you like to watch things that have suspense. Whether it’s the baking thing –

Jane: I do like The Great British Bake Off.

shea: But it’s not ours. This is not an interview about you.

Jane: Damn. I would tell you about all my little favorite shows.

shea: Is there a movie?

Jane: A movie.

shea: Oh my gosh. The Winnie the Pooh movie – Christopher Robin.

Jane: Oh my God, that actually is it because I am Piglet and you are Pooh Bear. shea. Always like, “Naps and honey.”

shea: First of all, I don’t eat honey like that.

Jane: I know, but for you, it’s like snacks. Snacks and naps. And I’m over here just cheering everyone on. I’m like, “Yay.”

shea: You are really cute.

Jane: I’m adorable.

shea: You are.

Jane: And I’m pink.

shea: Well, sometimes.

Jane: You are not yellow.

shea: I feel like I’m close enough. I’m also a little cuddly.

Tell us a funny story about your partner!

shea: Wait – what…I’m so scared of what you’re going to tell or just the story.

Jane: [Cackles]

Jane: I have the best story. It’s always when I come back to like something funny that’s happened in our relationship. I always come back to this. [More cackling]

shea: Why are you laughing?!

Jane: Okay – shea and I were at a conference one time and it was very early in our relationship. I don’t think we were engaged yet. Or if we were just engaged. We had had some type of argument and I had to find you. You were in the hotel room taking your time to process and we talked it out and had our moment. And then we had great makeup sex after. And I don’t know how it happened.

shea: I think I was reaching for my phone.

Jane: Yes. Well, you fell off the bed but didn’t just fall off the bed anyway. They fell off the bed in between the wall and the bed. And large people, well, we get stuck easily. So there’s shea’s naked butt. I just kept taking pictures.

shea: Because you’re an asshole.

Jane: You were just really stuck there and really –

shea: I know, but you were not helping at all.

Jane: Because I couldn’t stop laughing. I would say that’s probably one of the funniest. I mean, we laugh all the time, but that was one of the times that I just laughed at you. Imagine a little naked brown butt staring at you. It’s not a little naked brown butt, it’s sizable, two planets.

shea: Are you quoting Jason Derulo?

Jane: Absolutely.

shea: “Two planets. Ham sammich.”

Jane: No, we’re not doing that. No snacks Poo Bear. All right.

shea: I don’t know if I have a funny story.

Jane: Are you kidding? There’s a bajillion of them.

shea: And I think it’s funny because when they’re like, “Tell a funny story about Jane.” I feel like every day something funny happens. And I’m just like, “This is just a part of normal life. This is just my wonderful existence with you.” Oh, what about the first time you passed gas in front of me and you were afraid to?

Jane: Gasp!

shea: And I was like, “It’s okay. You can do it.” I tickled you so much to get it out. You were fighting it so hard. Oh my gosh. That was the day when I learned that you were weird like me.

Jane: That was the day!

shea: Well this is us. Thanks for the interview.

Jane: Thanks. I had a lot of fun. I was nervous about it, but no need. It’s just us.

shea: Great!

Jane: I love you.

shea: I love you too and thank you Mabel for your support. This has been shea wesley martin interviewing Jane Martin, as we drive across the country to Connecticut, accompanied by Mabel the Pig, in our Subaru, because we are queers.

Jane: Those kind of queers.