Hey there, AF Members! How the heck are ya?! You’re probably wondering what this post is all about and what Good Boys is and what it has to do with Autostraddle. To begin, we launched the Good Boys podcast in August as part of our mission to expand queer and trans led-media. The podcast is hosted by two trans dudes: For Them CEO and actor Kylo Freeman, and Comedian Motti, and it’s all about them figuring out what it means to be a “good boy.” Since we’ve launched, we’ve welcomed guests like Jes Tom (Our Flag Means Death), Rivkah Reyes (School of Rock), Bobbi Salvör Menuez (Summer Solstice), and Mal Wright (The Ultimatum: Queer Love) to lend their diverse perspectives on queerness, gender, friendship, romance, careers, and so much more! We’re incredibly proud to have reached half a million streams in our first four months, and we look forward to growing our podcast network.

So, what does this have to do with you? Fantastic question! As an AF Media or AF+ Member, you have access to all members-only editorial content, and as we grow the podcast and the podcast network, there is demand for exclusive bonus content. When considering where to host the bonus content, it made the most sense to do it through our existing membership subscription here on Autostraddle.com. We find that it all contributes to our goal of preserving, celebrating, and expanding queer media. This also means that as we continue to expand the podcast network by bringing on additional podcasts (coming soon!), we will also be expanding the exclusive content we’re able to offer you as members.

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Kylo: Welcome to Good Boys. We have Elizabeth Moon on this podcast—also known, not more importantly but maybe more widely, as The Moonstoned.

Elizabeth: I was gonna say, as the person who sent you a naked, platonic photo.

Kylo: I was getting to that, but first, I want everyone to know who you are. Elizabeth is an amazing jewelry designer. I want to say celebrity jewelry designer. I know you designed my jewelry, and I’m not trying to hype myself up—

Elizabeth: You are a celebrity. And I did design your jewelry.

Kylo: Okay, I accept that. Celebrity jewelry designer. Vintage curator—can I say that?

Elizabeth: Yes, definitely.

Kylo: Model?

Elizabeth: Oh, well, maybe just for my friends and stuff.

Kylo: Okay, model. But really, just a general entrepreneur. Someone I admire.

Elizabeth: Thank you.

Kylo: Did I miss anything?

Elizabeth: Nope, that’s about it. I’m just another one of those “most interesting men in the world,” but, you know, a woman.

Kylo: She’s also the wonderful person who sent me a platonic nude in my DMs—the most exciting thing that could’ve happened. You’ve stirred up quite the buzz on Instagram, by the way. And you’re very brave for coming on.

Elizabeth: Oh, no, I’m really glad we’re doing this. The more I think about it, the more I realize how meaningful an exchange like that can be—and how empowering it really is. It can be playful, like cheeky (pun intended), but it also touches on empowerment and intimacy between friends. It’s such an interesting topic, and I’m happy to dive into it.

Kylo: And just to give some context—Elizabeth and I are friends. Someone asked if she just slid into my DMs with a random nude, and I was like, no! We know each other. We respect each other. We’re friends. You sent me a nude.

Elizabeth: You bet my ass I did.

Kylo: I didn’t tell anyone what it was, so you don’t have to share it.

Elizabeth: It’s okay—I’m very proud of my ass. I put a lot of work into it.

Kylo: It’s a great ass. Truly.

Elizabeth: Thank you.

Kylo: Before we get deeper into that, I think I should explain what Good Boys is—just for context, since it relates to all of this. Originally, we started this podcast to talk about masculinity and our second queer coming-of-age. For me and Mott, it’s also been a kind of third trans coming-of-age.

We explore how these identities shift over time and how masculinity weaves in and out of them. So, before we talk more about the nude, could you share a bit about your journey—your experience as a queer person?

Elizabeth: Yeah, definitely. I think to really speak to my queer journey, it’s important to have context of where I came from, and how it started. And I think that it’s, it’s very similar to a lot of other queer people who, you know, have reached out to me and maybe said that they haven’t been able to overcome their past. I grew up in a very small town, and I was raised Irish Catholic, and I didn’t have a lot of, I guess, like exposure or knowledge of what it meant to be queer.

And I knew very, very young that I liked women. I was on the soccer team, and I just remember thinking—

Kylo: That’s very cliché, by the way.

Elizabeth: Just being, like, so excited for soccer practice all the time and how sweaty everyone got. But, you know, after I kissed my first girl in high school and, you know, told my mom that I had been having these feelings, it was—it was a very swift rejection. And it was very clear to me that this would not be an acceptable way for me to move on, to live my life.

So I did what any good Catholic girl who is raised to be a people-pleaser did: I dated the exact same Ken doll from age, like, 15 to 30. And it wasn’t until the birth of my daughter—someone who is going to be a woman someday—that I realized I couldn’t keep lying to myself and keep diminishing or keeping myself small as a woman if I want my daughter to have everything.

I left, it was Covid, I blew up my entire life, and I restarted. And, yeah, I have done so much unlearning and shedding of the skins I had before. And I’m now really proud to be a lesbian who can share the skin I’m in with whoever I please.

Kylo: What a fantastic segue. Have you done this before?

Elizabeth: (Laughs)

Kylo: I mean, it’s super brave, and I assume you’re much, much happier.

Elizabeth: Oh, yeah. Big time. You know, I remember being in therapy, in couples therapy with my then-husband, and my couples therapist—she looked at me and she said, “You know, this decision is life or death for you. And if you stay, you will be choosing death, you know, like the death of self.”

So it was very scary. But I think that there really wasn’t an option, because I didn’t come here to just coast through life. I came here to live it.

Kylo: That coming-out moment is so—we’ve talked about it again and again with different guests and my own experience with coming out. And it’s just so—it’s one of those things that once you’ve done it, it feels completely inevitable, but before you’ve done it, it feels impossible.

Elizabeth: Yeah. You’re just like, “There’s no way.” And then once you’ve done it, you’re like, “Oh, everything I’ve done has led to this.” You know? And I came out to, like, our friends, and I was like, “I’m a lesbian.” And, you know, nine out of ten people were like, “Yeah, no, we know.”

Kylo: I love how that always happens. It might have been the soccer.

Elizabeth: Yeah, it definitely wasn’t my pageant photos from high school.

Kylo: Oh my god, you have to share those.

Elizabeth: No, no, no. I will send you every nude in my album. You will not see those pageant photos.

Kylo: (Laughs) Okay, let’s talk about being a woman. I can’t talk about it in this state. And we have a lot of comments, I guess, around this idea of, as a woman—especially, you know, in a heteronormative state or society—the shame that’s put on a woman for her body. The pressure. It’s something I think that you’re speaking about—being liberated by being able to have agency over your body and showing it to whoever you want to show it to.

Elizabeth: Yeah. Well, you know, I think that was also something that I’ve been thinking about. And, you know, it’s clear—it’s no surprise to anyone—that we’ve been raised in a culture where women’s bodies are commoditized and judged. And whether it’s by a cis-hetero man or by other cis-het women, the body I was inhabiting wasn’t mine. It was for the judgment of others. It was to see, you know, how, like, good I could be with what I had, you know, and what I could give—what I could offer other people—while keeping myself small and sweet.

Someone going through pageants—you know, I was a pretty awkward, dorky kid until I wasn’t. It was, like, very classic 2000s rom-com. I went away for a summer, lost my braces, my, you know, my glasses. I was wearing a neck brace at the time—that came off too. Yeah, I really, really wanted to do it hard, you know? And then I came back and had no concept of what to do with the new attention I was getting. And I was in a pageant—a beauty pageant. And then, you know, as a teenager, as a child, I was being told to wear clear heels and get on a stage in a bikini with, you know, chicken cutlets in my bra, and be judged by adults for the way I looked—and by men.

Now, looking back at it, it’s horrifying. But, you know, anytime I would wear something like a skirt that was too short, or if I had rolled up my soccer shorts, or if you could see my bra straps—all of a sudden I was a slut. I was promiscuous. I was trying to get attention. And it’s incredibly confusing as an adolescent.

Part of my maturity, part of embracing my queerness and meeting more queer people and queer family, is that our bodies are our celebration. It’s, like, where we get to—yeah, I get to, like, love and explore and show up. And I get to say, like, “Look at me. Look at how far I’ve come. Look at this body that I have had to really work hard on loving, on my own terms.” And to get to share that with whoever we want, you know, without shame and without judgment. And it’s—it’s one of my favorite parts about being queer and being in the queer community.

Kylo: I love that. And you said it so well. And I want to highlight that there wasn’t any shame or judgment for me. I’m sure anyone you receive a nude from—I assume it’s just me.

Elizabeth: Yeah. You’re the only one, Kylo.

Kylo: That’s what I say to myself. Yeah. Do not ruin it. So what do you mean by platonic nude?

Elizabeth: So, you know, a platonic nude is being able to share my body with someone that I respect and I know respects me. And that I can share my body in a space where I can say—and maybe it’s not even like a nude, right? Maybe it’s just like, “I feel so fucking hot, and I just want to share this because that is joyful and fun.” And to be able to, like, send it to a friend or someone that you adore and say, “Come celebrate me. I’m feeling so good right now.”

We lose so many opportunities to feel good about ourselves in a physical sense, because of how we’ve been raised, because of what, you know, we’ve been told to feel shame and embarrassment for. We lose these opportunities to give our friends the chance to show up for us and say, like, “You are so fucking hot. That hat is beautiful on you. What divine posing this photo is.”

It started, actually, a couple of years ago, when I was still living in straight land. And I have a very good friend of mine, and, you know, she—she was kind of in a rut with her boyfriend. And I don’t know what I was doing, but she was like, “I just wish I could go out and try on lingerie and just feel good. I don’t want to be touched. I don’t want this to lead to something. I just—I just want to feel sexy.”

And I said, “Well, next time you go try on some lingerie, send me a photo.” And it was completely and totally platonic, you know?

Kylo: It sounds gay.

Elizabeth: It sounds very gay. Haha. I swear it wasn’t. She would never, I might, but she would never know. But it was really beautiful because a couple of weeks later, she went and tried on some lingerie and sent me a photo, and I was like, you looked so beautiful. And she did. And that was it. And it felt so great. And, you know, it was a couple months later when she said that it changed her entire day. She felt so good. It’s all I needed. It’s like a little rah-rah moment for your friends, you know? And then you just go on about your business. There’s no—this is kind of just coming to me now—there’s no exchange you’re asking for.

Kylo: There’s no expectation.

Elizabeth: You’re just asking to be seen in a moment where you really, really just want to celebrate yourself.

Kylo: I appreciate that. And I agree with everything you said, although I’ve never sent a nude, so—

Elizabeth: It’s not too late.

Kylo: I’m coming for you (laughs). You don’t want a nude from me.

Elizabeth: Why not?

Kylo: I don’t even know what I would do in it. I don’t know how to pose well, but—

Elizabeth: I guess that’s the point. It should feel inherently sexy to you, not for me. So you send a nude because you feel sexy, not because you want to turn me on. And that’s the point.

Kylo: But let’s get into that. Yeah, you must know I have to call you out on this because I love you, but you’re so sexy.

Elizabeth: Thank you.

Kylo: I will just caveat for everyone—Elizabeth is very humble and not an arrogant person, but you’re gorgeous.

Elizabeth: Thank you.

Kylo: And you must—I think you know that I think that.

Elizabeth: Yes. It’s one of our favorite games.

Kylo: It’s our favorite game. We flirt a little back and forth, but just enough—not too much. Don’t worry about it. It’s safe. But would you expect me to be aroused when I received your nude? And is that okay?

Elizabeth: Yeah. No. You know, it’s funny—I’m going to push back on this a little because I live in this body all the time. And I think, like, we all get into our rhythms and patterns. I also have as many days as anyone else where I wake up and I’m just like, ugh—nothing looks good. I don’t feel good. I don’t feel sexy. And, you know, no matter what I feel like other people think of me, it’s still just really nice to be able to exchange that in a platonic way. And I’m getting away from your actual question, but I think—you know, a friend of mine said something to me one time. I was feeling judged by how I looked, and the group I felt judged by, it hurt because it felt like they were judging me for how I look instead of who I am.

Because I am attractive to some—most. And, not to you specifically. No, but, you know—he started laughing, which I was like, why are you laughing at me? This is actually really painful. And he said, it is none of your business how hot you are. And something about that really released me from how others perceive me.

So if you get turned on, that’s none of my business. If this provides something for you, I trust you, and I trust our friendship. I trust the space we share where you can do what you want with it. I know you’re not going to send it to anyone. I know you’re not going to be disrespectful. If it turns you on, that’s none of my business. And good for you.

Kylo: Yeah, I appreciate that. And I was conscious of receiving it. I think this is because I respect all women, but especially you. I have a lot of respect for you. It’s complex because I did get turned on, but I wanted to respect your intentions. We talked about me respecting you as a friend and your intention—you told me it was platonic. So my body—I was like, be platonic, be platonic, Kylo. Don’t take this to a place she hasn’t given you permission to. See what I’m saying?

And I think that’s tough. The complexity of it is tough because, although I appreciate everything from your perspective, I’m not sure I agree with all of it. And yeah, fuck everybody. I agree—it’s not your problem, just be who you are. But on the other side of the coin, you have an impact, and I’ve got to figure out how to receive it.

The word platonic to me—platonic can mean family. I mean, we’re not sending that stuff to family.

Elizabeth: No, I mean—no. I mean, my parents? I’m pretty sure it’s out there, but no.

Kylo: So it feels like there’s sexual energy in it, which is interesting to me. There’s a sexual exchange of energy, even if there’s no intention behind it. I was polling a few women before this, and most of them said, I would love to, if I knew the other side of it was safe. So, all the things you said—if I knew no one was going to share it, no one was going to disrespect or judge me, or expect sex on the other side.

And I thought, this is so interesting. Do you want to—

Elizabeth: I mean, I encourage people to do it. It’s truly liberating. It’s a way of reclaiming your body and saying, I have been commoditized so deeply as a woman, and by the way I look. I’m going to take that back. I’m going to share my body the way I want to share it, and in a way that feels safe.

Again, we’re talking about nuance. I don’t encourage anyone to just airdrop nudes to strangers on a train. But I do think we should seek more safety and ask more questions. Like, you and I had been talking about nudes and platonic nudes, so it wasn’t random. I trust you and feel safe in our friendship, so I sent one. It was cheeky and fun, and it made me feel good. I hope it made you feel good too.

But that’s part of the trust in the space and the community. You get to say, this was really fun, and either send one back or say, send them over, babe, whenever you’ve got one. Or you can say, hey, I’m struggling with how I feel about this—it has nothing to do with you, I love you, but I’m trying to figure out how I feel about receiving nudes like this. Not just from you, but from anyone.

And then I get to say, no problem, thank you for letting me know—no more nudes for you.

Kylo: I didn’t say it.

Elizabeth: Yeah. You were very clear.

Kylo: What was the first option? Send them on through.

Elizabeth: Yeah. But it’s about boundaries, I think, like with anything. And again, I think that’s something queer people have had to learn more deeply than maybe cis-het people. Because queerness exists in this creative, beautiful space. But if you don’t have boundaries, you can really hurt people—or yourself. And with platonic nudes, it’s just this fun, playful way to also set boundaries.

Kylo: And I know we’ve talked a little about being open in relationships. But as I explore openness more, I’m starting to notice how relationships in our community are expansive—almost bespoke. There’s not just one formula. Like, some friends I’d never exchange nudes with. Then there are “friend-plus” situations, where you might exchange something intimate but wouldn’t sleep together. And there are friends you kiss but don’t sleep with, and some you do, but it’s still just friendship. And then, of course, there are romantic relationships. It’s this whole spectrum, and I think queerness lets us explore that kind of fluidity.Just to be clear again..For the listeners, I just stared deep into Elizabeth’s eyes. I want to explore this… but no, seriously! I’m trying to understand these different dynamics and what I’m comfortable with.

Elizabeth: Totally. But I don’t think we can learn all this stuff on our own. We figure it out with people we trust. If you’re honest, curious, and intentional, you can learn so much about what works for you. It’s also important to ask for what you need and set clear boundaries—especially when things can get slippery. I’ve definitely found myself in places where I was like, “Oops, I did not mean to end up here.” But that’s part of the process, right?

Kylo: Yeah, but it feels high-stakes when you have a friend you really care about. I don’t want to blur lines, because true connection is rare for me. I’ve got a lot of acquaintances, but real friends—those are special. And queerness is beautiful. I’d never give it up, but sometimes it makes relationships… complicated.

Elizabeth: It’s work, man. It really is. There are times when I look back on my pre-queer life and think about how simple it felt, like I was living with half a lobotomy. And sometimes, that sounds nice.

Kylo: Just walking around like, “Everything’s fine!”

Elizabeth: Exactly. It’s like, “This is who I am. This is who I date. This is what I do.” Life was easier to follow. But I wouldn’t trade this for anything, even if it takes work. Oh, and I have a personal rule: I don’t sleep with my friends.

Kylo: That’s solid. And it sounds like it’s served you well.

Elizabeth: It really has. I do have great friendships with people I’ve slept with, but those relationships became friendships after the fact. And I cherish them. But my life feels complicated enough without sleeping with my friends.

Kylo: That’s such a good point. Honestly, I think we should ask every guest about this on the show—it’s a conversation that always brings out strong opinions. Some people are like, “We have boundaries, we’re good, we can sleep together.” Others? Absolutely not.

Elizabeth: Yeah, for me, it’s a hard no.

Kylo: I don’t think I’ve ever slept with a friend. I’m really trying to think… but no, I don’t think I have. I guess I still have pretty binary ideas about relationships—like, “Are we friends, or are we not?”

Elizabeth: I get that. I’ve had partners who were my best friends and lovers at the same time, and it was amazing. But not everyone can navigate that mix easily—I definitely can’t. I wish I could, but it’s not me.

Kylo: It’s all energy, right?

Elizabeth: Exactly. And I value my friendships too much to risk it. The reward just isn’t worth it for me.

Kylo: Same.

Elizabeth: So… how did you feel when I sent you that nude? Because, you know, you didn’t respond for a whole day.

Kylo: I didn’t? That’s not true.

Elizabeth: Oh, it is. I have the receipts.

Kylo: (Laughs) A whole day? No way. I’m going to have to screenshot the timestamps. Not the nude, obviously—but the timestamps!

Elizabeth: Yeah. That’s got to be for, like, the plus-plus—you know, you gotta pay for that.

Kylo: I received the nude. I immediately panicked. I threw my phone—

Elizabeth: Into the nearest body of water.

Kylo: And I pretended you didn’t exist.

Elizabeth: It’s nice to know my power. This feels really nice. Thank you for validating me.

Kylo: My only promise in this podcast world is to be as honest as possible, so I’m going to embarrass myself again.

Elizabeth: Nudes are powerful.

Kylo: I’m gonna regret this. So, I throw the phone. I’m ready. Panicked. I’m confused because if you’d just sent me a nude without the word “platonic” on it, right? I would have responded in a very different way, to be honest with you.

Elizabeth: Okay, I want to hear more about that after.

Kylo: Okay. But it’s platonic, so I was like, well… I want to respect her. I thought to myself, she’s just celebrating herself, and she looks gorgeous. I thought I should tell her that in a platonic way. That’s what my brain said.

Elizabeth: Leave her on read, for sure. For sure.

Kylo: Did I upset you?

Elizabeth: Oh my God, no. I’m teasing you because it makes you blush.

Kylo: But you noticed. I should feel good about that. You sent me a nude, and then I let you sweat.

Elizabeth: It’s crickets.

Kylo: Yeah, that is really bad form. On this podcast, we would say “bad boy.”

Elizabeth: You’re a bad boy.

Kylo: Oh no, I’m panicked—I’m fine. Actually, I’m so sorry. Okay. So, yeah. To be honest, the word “platonic” threw me, which is why I brought it up on the podcast in the first place. I was like, well, I’ve never heard of a platonic nude before. To me, it was very sexual. And it was amazing. She looked so sexy. So I was like, should I…? And I would have—with the word “platonic”—responded in a sexual way back. And I would have “yes-and”ed you. But I wanted to just “yes” you.

Elizabeth: No, that’s really, like, wonderful context. And I think that’s why I felt safe enough to send it to you in the first place—because I know you have deep reverence for how your friends feel and for how I feel. We had been talking about nudes, and I felt like I wanted to send one to you. But in doing that, it’s only because I trust you so much, and your explanation is exactly why you can be trusted and why I do feel so safe. And again, to what we were talking about before—you could have responded with, “You look so sexy. This is great. I actually don’t know if I’m open to this, or open to receiving.” And then I could be like, “Okay.” That’s a really beautiful exchange. Now I know. You’re doing great.

Kylo: Totally. You know, I think you don’t even have to say that—although I appreciate it. Some of these things—of course, consent should be there—have an unspoken respect and understanding. But I think I should be able to say that.

Elizabeth: Yeah, for sure.

Kylo: So I think there’s trust there, and this whole conversation is underpinned by that trust. If it wasn’t there, well…

Elizabeth: We wouldn’t be having this conversation at all. And again, you know, sending or exchanging nudes with my friends, even those I don’t have any sexual desire for, is about sharing and celebrating in their sexiness and beauty—and mine, too. But also, sometimes it’s just silly. I have a group of friends I play poker with, and we’ll send a tit shot or something—it’s technically a nude, but it’s just playful.

Kylo: How does your partner feel about you sending or receiving nudes?

Elizabeth: In a relationship, for me, there has to be a clear understanding that neither of us owns the other’s body. If I want to share my body, that’s my choice. As long as there’s trust and boundaries, it can be very safe.

Kylo: I’m in an open relationship—everyone knows because I never stop talking about it. The joke is that I’m in an open relationship, and I haven’t done anything. Also, I’m pansexual, but I don’t sleep with men. She’s fine with it. She’s definitely fine with me receiving.

Elizabeth: Obviously, any photo I’d send you, I’d also send to your girlfriend.

Kylo: That’s interesting because I didn’t show her. I didn’t show anyone. I told her I got a nude, though, and asked if it was okay. She was like, “Yeah, enjoy your life.” I’m cautious with these things—I didn’t know if you wanted anyone to know.

Elizabeth: Right. There’s nuance to it. It’s not like we just met at a bar, and I’m sending you a nude to show your girlfriend. I know you, I know Em, and I love and respect you both. We’ve had so many conversations about sexuality, dating, monogamy, and non-monogamy—there’s so much context. That’s what makes it okay to drop a nude in your DMs.

Kylo: Yeah, my relationship with you feels different than yours with Em.

Elizabeth: Definitely.

Kylo: Sending a nude to her might feel out of pocket, but not with me.

Elizabeth: Yeah, exactly.

Kylo: She’d probably send you one back.

Elizabeth: Yeah, she totally would.

Kylo: Motti said his girlfriend has a group chat where they send nudes to each other. Different versions of this exist.

Elizabeth: That’s a good point. I’d send a nude to Em, too. Like when I modeled the underwear I love—

Kylo: I didn’t think of that. That was basically a nude.

Elizabeth: Exactly. I sent you a video of me taking those photos, so it was kind of the same thing. But with you, it was more playful and flirty—definitely different from what I’d send to Em.

Kylo: That’s interesting. You modeled in our underwear and sent behind-the-scenes footage. Your breasts were in it, but the context made it feel different. One-on-one, though, it felt like a nude. Nudes really are about context.

Elizabeth: Absolutely.

Kylo: They have intention and context. They can mean different things. So, set your boundaries—and send those nudes.

Elizabeth: Exactly. Set your boundaries, feel safe, and feel empowered. When I send a nude, it’s about celebrating myself and inviting friends to celebrate with me. There’s no expectation. Just empowerment. So… when am I getting a nude back?

Kylo: Okay, trans boys out there—someone tell me how to send a nude. Seriously, I need guidance.

Elizabeth: Start a trans boy nude-sharing revolution! But this is exactly my point. You’ve worked so hard to feel at home in your body—why not send nudes to celebrate it?

Kylo: Totally. You’re right. I don’t even know how to send one in this body—not one that feels explicit but still affirming.

Elizabeth: Maybe this is a chance to explore how you feel sexy and put that out there.

Kylo
Yeah, but you’re too high-stakes for me to send my first nude.

Elizabeth: I can wait. I’m patient.

Kylo: I need to practice with some platonic nudes first—but I’ll get there. Thank you for being brave.

Elizabeth: No, thank you.

Kylo: I just want to plug @themoonstoned on Instagram. Every ring I wear—and most of the jewelry on my neck—is from Elizabeth. Please check it out.

Elizabeth: Thank you.

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