What’s My Type? I Dunno, You Tell Me!!!
“There’s Something About” is a series where writers chat about the type of babes that make them all hot and bothered by showing you fictional Pop Culture hotties that fit the bill.
One of my favorite things about writing for Autostraddle is sometimes we’re given a fun prompt like “describe your type with four examples” and I take that as “have an existential crisis.”
See, for years I could’ve easily answered this question. I sort of did with my top ten television characters list filled with lots of Mean Mommis™ both literal and spiritual. But in the year and a half since writing that I have… grown? Gotten… healthier? More… well-adjusted? I know. I can hardly believe it either.
I reflected on my longtime crushes that still make me swoon and came up with this very random list. I don’t know what unites them beyond good at banter and could probably beat me up (but also probably won’t). So consider this an interactive entry in this series — What’s my type? I dunno you tell me!
Various Characters as played by Katharine Hepburn
Katharine Hepburn is one of my earliest loves. Her characters in Bringing Up Baby, Adam’s Rib, The Philadelphia Story, and so many others taught me what kind of woman I want to be with and what kind of woman I want to be. She was confident and funny and extremely stubborn — a double Taurus after all — and I just love her so much. Also shoutout to how extremely gay and trans she is in Sylvia Scarlett.
Barbarella as played by Jane Fonda
I love IRL Jane Fonda. She’s one of the few celebrities I feel comfortable stanning. She’s always been political in a way that goes beyond the lip service of most famous actors and after so many decades she’s rarely let me down. So then why of all her roles have I chosen the one where she’s a horny space bimbo? I don’t know! This is an interactive experience remember?? I was obsessed with Jane as Barbarella as a teen and I still am. She’s curious and wears cool outfits and fights bad guys and has a wild sex drive. What’s not to love?
Legs Sadovsky as played by Angelina Jolie
At one point in my life, this list could have been comprised entirely of characters like Angelina Jolie in Foxfire. She’s edgy and dangerous and damaged and very very very gay. And while, as aforementioned, I’ve matured to a healthier place, there’s still something about Angelina’s violent soft butch that still extremely does it for me. She’s just so hot and cool and her chaos is directed in very understandable and admirable places! I would take a tattoo from her any day.
Monica Wright as played by Sanaa Lathan
Talent is hot. Working hard is hot. Sanaa Lathan in Love and Basketball is HOT. I’m a Capricorn who will always put my work and passions first and I want a partner who will do the same for themself. I love Monica’s drive and her temper and her unwillingness to compromise. And going back to my favorite thing banter, she and Quincy have banter that lasts them decades. Being serious about your path in life doesn’t mean being humorless and I love how Monica brings the same competitive spirit to a flirty battle of wits as she does a high-stakes game of one-on-one.
Okay so tell me… what’s my type??
There’s Something About a Scary Woman With Questionable Morals
“There’s Something About” is a series where writers chat about the type of babes that make them all hot and bothered by showing you fictional Pop Culture hotties that fit the bill.
Maybe it’s because I had my first kiss with a goth girl who spent a lot of time in detention and was weirdly obsessed with John Dillinger. Maybe it’s because I’m a thrill-seeking, Aries Sun/ Scorpio Rising, top-leaning switch who loves a challenge but — I’ve always adored bold women who rattle my sense of right and wrong.
So please enjoy this list of fictional characters who made me the homosexual I am today.
Morticia Addams — The Addams Family
I grew up watching the 1991 film The Addams Family and its sequel The Addams Family Values, in which Anjelica Houston stars as the vampiric femme fatale of my dreams who also lacks any concern about her family’s physical safety. Morticia only gently rebukes Wednesday when she tries to electrocute Pugsley (just for fun) and doesn’t seem rattled when her children attempt to murder their infant sibling by throwing him off a roof. But she wins my adoration with swoon-worthy quotes like, “I’m just like any modern woman trying to have it all…I wish I had more time to seek out the dark forces and join their hellish crusade.”
Annalise Keating — How to Get Away With Murder
Viola Davis is undeniably powerful, and when she’s playing the stern, power-suit-wearing lawyer/ law professor Annalise Keating, her Hot Older Woman Appeal intensifies. Sure, she lies her face off and attempts to cover up a murder. But as far as I’m concerned, Annalise can do whatever she wants.
Faith — Buffy the Vampire Slayer
Most queer folks who grew up watching Buffy are Willow/Tara fans, and while I appreciate Willow/Tara as one of TV’s first witches-loving-witches couples, those characters were too soft for me. I like women with an edge. Faith, while not explicitly queer, was queer-coded enough for teenage me to fantasize about getting her dark lipstick all over my face. Did she technically kill a guy? And did she technically switch bodies with Buffy to avoid punishment from the Watcher’s Council? And did she technically send a bunch of teenagers to their death during the battle against the First Evil? Yeah, but let’s focus on the leather pants, shall we?
Dr. Callie Torres — Grey’s Anatomy
Let it be known that I had a crush on Callie BEFORE the character’s bisexual awakening. Please, for a moment, imagine my UTTER DELIGHT in 2008 when I, a senior in high school at the time, got to watch my fictional crush start a woman-doctor-on-woman-doctor romance on TV. Callie may have a heart of gold, but she’s quick-tempered and definitely a little scary — her favorite part of orthopedic surgery is the part where she gets to break bones. She also makes some questionable choices, like when she incites a custody battle with Arizona and when she starts dating Penny (who, for the record, is painfully boring in comparison to Callie’s other lovers — #CalzonaForever). Despite her impulsive decisions, Callie always charms her way back into my heart.
Theo Crain — The Haunting of Hill House
I’ve managed to watch this incredibly morbid series in its entirety three times, mostly because I love a character study with paranormal elements, but also because I’m a sucker for any angry queer woman who has psychic powers that REQUIRE HER TO WEAR LEATHER GLOVES AT ALL TIMES (?!?!). ARE YOU KIDDING ME?! There must have been at least one kinky person in that writers room. Theo yells — a lot. And she rarely considers the impact of her harsh words. She also tries to kiss her older sister’s husband after her younger sister’s funeral. At least she’s willing to own up to her mistakes. I couldn’t care less about Shane fucking a bridesmaid, but when Theo did the same thing, I rejoiced.
Bette Porter — The L Word
I don’t have to explain this one. Bette speaks for her damn self.
Thank you for appreciating these women with me. Now go out there and make some dubious life choices!
Lena Waithe on “Twenties” and the Highs and Lows of Being Black, Queer, and Masc in Hollywood
Feature Image of Lena Waithe by Amy Sussman/Getty Images
When I first had the opportunity to briefly interview her back in May, as a part of her press tour for the third season of Master of None, I said “there are few queer creators working who have a reputation that enters the conversation before they do quite like Lena Waithe.”
Six months later — and that’s never been more true. Having spent more time with her, I’m still struck by the unhurried confidence of Lena Waithe’s pace. There was not a person I told about this interview who didn’t have an opinion about what was to come, but in her presence, Lena doesn’t bristle or fold when pushed back against. She also won’t be deterred. I came prepared to our interview ready to talk about her indie darling comedy Twenties, now airing in its second season on BET (weekly recaps written by yours truly right here on Autostraddle!), but almost immediately it became clear that Lena had other plans.
When your interview subject has: created the show with the largest cast of Black women LGBT characters on television (that’s The Chi); created the show with the first Black butch lead protagonist on television (that’s Twenties); written the series with the first Black lesbian romantic lead couple on a major streaming network (that’s the third season of Master of None); and pretty much seemingly single-handedly reshaped the possibilities of Black lesbian storytelling on television in just the last four years, you go ahead and follow her lead on what to talk about.
What started off as a conversation about Twenties became something closer to a career retrospective, exploring not only her shows, but the frustrations that accompany being The First, what it means to find an audience when your shows are too gay for Black media and often too Black for mainstream (read: white) gay audiences, and yes — most surprising to me! — her own opinions about the online discourse around Black trauma and violence has become synonymous with her name in some circles.
Our talk ended up nothing like what I imagined, but something much more nuanced, detailed, honest. An exchange between two queer Black women, who really fucking love television and film (sorry there was no other way to say that) and are trying to figure out how to navigate our different sides of this industry. Real shit? It was one of the best conversations I’ve had this year.
If Lena Waithe’s reputation, almost permanently marked on level “notorious,” enters the conversation before she does — well then, she’s also intent on having the last word. And you know what? Maybe some of the middle words, too.
Carmen: One of the things that is really important about Twenties, and what we started to rethink about our coverage of the show is… Well, to be really honest, what really started it was our interview for Master of None, in which I banged some doors to get literally five minutes. And we were all very excited even to just get those five minutes! But then during that brief interview, you were willing to reach out a limb and say to your handlers. “Can we get an extra two minutes so that she can ask a second question?” It’s a small thing.
But at that moment was I was like, “That is how we’re going to be able to get so much done in this industry as queer people, as queer Black people, by lifting up each other on these platforms.” It really stuck with me.
I started thinking about Twenties. And then that summer, when we were planning our fall coverage, I said, “I think we need to give Twenties full recaps.” And we do full episode recaps of The L Word, and we do full episode recaps of some of the gay superhero shows.
We’ve never done something like this for a Black show that wasn’t about superheros; for a show on BET. We’ll cover it in other ways, we do reviews, or include it in roundups — but that weekly commitment of a full article, every week, top to bottom, jokes, smart commentary? We hadn’t done that.
And I was like, “I think that is a disservice.” And our other editors agreed. So, we’re doing it this year.
Lena: I appreciate that.
Carmen: One of things you’ve been talking about [in the past], and that we’re getting at here is, it is so hard right now to get attention on this show! And I’ve even noticed a difference from your team this season — with them reaching out and asking, “Can we get you screeners? Are you interested in an interview?”
So I’m wondering if that was something that was intentional for you this year? Your decisions about how we’re going to start getting eyes to Twenties.
Lena: Yeah, I think it definitely is. And the truth is, the audience is going to take a show and run with it. You know what I’m saying?
They’re going to talk about it. So it’s interesting, because if a show that is maybe on Amazon, more people have access to it. Or if the subject matter is about Black family in a very white neighborhood — that’s a more clickable thing. Twenties is about three Black women tackling a dream, one of them happens to be a queer woman.
Does that get enough attention? Does that feed into maybe a story that other people want to talk about? You know what I’m saying?
Carmen: Yeah.
Lena: I want to understand. Some people could say, “She [Lena] leans toward these types of stories.” But Twenties does not fit that narrative. And you can’t act like it don’t exist, and also too, there’s a queer character at the center.
Carmen: A queer masc character at the center.
Lena: Queer masc character at the center. But how many times do you see us on Black blogs? You know what I’m saying? Black sites.
Carmen: No, I do. I think —
Lena: But everybody’s like, “Where’s The Chi Season Five”? [Editor’s Note: As of August 2021, The Chi was on pace to become the most streamed series in Showtime’s history]. And I’m looking forward to doing it! But who’s at the center?
Now we got Nina and Dre in there. We got Imani.
But Twenties is the center. It’s a comedy. And it is on a Black network! So there becomes a question, “Why doesn’t it get as much talk?” Now that I can only ask the question, I can’t answer it because it’s my show. So I do lean on journalists and publications to look at the whole thing and go, “Let’s have a conversation, folks.”
I have to look at you to write about that.
Carmen: Go ahead. Yeah, that’s why I asked the questions.
I think for me, what I think about is… The thing that I think always draws me to your work, to be honest with you, Lena is… OK. We’re having a very real conversation. I’m not trying to take us in these dark places. But I know, and you know, sometimes your work has been seen as very controversial.
But what I have always continued to stand for — and what I find to be really interesting about it — is that I don’t know much other work I’ve seen on television that is so wholly Black and so wholly queer at the same time. And what I find to be… When you look at, say for example, The Chi. The third season of The Chi, had at that point the largest cast of LGBT Black women we’ve ever had on television. Period. On any show.
When you look at Master of None, there we go again, something that’s never happened before. Now we have a Black lesbian couple in the center of a major streaming network show. That’s never happened, right?
And to be honest with you, Twenties, I do think it gets the the least amount of press. But for me, if we’re to look at the arc of your career — I believe Twenties is the shining gem of it. Because I think of the show and I’m like, “Okay, this is a show that’s on a Black network that is historically homophobic and has been a real problem in our community for that. And now here is the gayest, Blackest show I’ve ever seen.”
And then in the second season, it came back and it was like, “And we’re going to have an Official After Show. And the host of the after show is going to B. Scott.” You wanna talk about about legends in our community! You feel me? So I guess if I could ever ask you one —
Lena: Actually, can I ask you a question?
Carmen: Yes, please.
Lena: What about my work makes it controversial?
Carmen: I shouldn’t have said that. I’m sor —
Lena: No. Because we’re having a real conversation. Words are powerful.
Carmen: I think —
Lena: Here’s the deal. I want to be clear about how media also affects how we see our queer heroes.
Carmen: That’s true.
Lena: So you have been almost taught to think of me as a controversial artist. But the work that I’ve done is not unlike those that have come before me. The difference is, those directors and those writers have been straight Black men.
Carmen: I think that’s an interesting question. So let me spin that back to you —
Lena: We’ve just celebrated 25 years for Set It Off. Right?
Carmen: Right.
Lena: It was everywhere floating around. Yeah, Set It Off. I love Set It Off. How does that movie end? Three black women shot down. We will never forget Cleo going.
And then F. Gary Gray was a good director.
Carmen: Yeah.
Lena: Black man.
Carmen: Love F. Gary Gray.
Lena: All I’m saying is… You know what I’m saying? Just trying to compare it [ to Queen & Slim ] —
Carmen: No. I mean, Ok. So.
So if you want my… I’m in no way… I’m in a tough situation in that our publication is an indie publication, I’m going to keep it very real with you. I want to continue to have these conversations with you. I don’t want to say something that’s going to end our professional relationship before it starts.
I also think if we’re going to keep it at a buck with each other, and keep it to where we’re going as a community, I hear you. I think the Set It Off comparison is a very fair one. And that’s a good one. I’ve even personally written about how much I love that movie for the 25th anniversary.
I think what we have to think about is also the context in which these art forms land. And I say that as someone who respects your work.
I think that when we’re thinking about something like Set It Off, when we’re thinking about Boyz n the Hood, we are thinking about what were the stories in the 90s. We’re also thinking about the fact that it wasn’t a time when you could open up your phone and see a Black person get murdered while you’re scrolling your timeline. So I do think that the sensitivity around that has changed in 25 years, by the nature of also the ways in which we see violence every day. And that’s maybe not even… maybe that’s not a fair thing to put on you as a creator.
Lena: No. No.
Carmen: But I do think that that makes a difference.
Lena: But what about Squid Games?
Carmen: Right. But I think with Squid Games, we’re also not talking about Black violence. I think what people, for me, and again I say this as someone who loves and appreciates your work.. Queen & Slim, that’s probably not my favorite. I do love Twenties.
I think when we think about how we’re talking about Black lives, and we’re talking about Black love — and I think Queen & Slim was very much so promoted as a Black love story … you know what I mean? We have to think about what are we showing our community.
And now to keep it really honest, I don’t necessarily think all of the stuff that lands about “Lena Waithe is controversial” is fair. You’re not going to see a lot of those critiques in my writing, because I do try and look at the larger arc of your career. But I think if we’re going to ask about how these creations get made, it’s just an interesting conversation to think about, “Well, what context are they landing in? Are people already tired?”
Lena: But that sounds like what’s being said is that a Black artist, there are certain things you can and can’t do, correct?
Carmen: I would never say that. I don’t say that.
Lena: Of course not. But in essence —
Carmen: Yeah. I don’t know that to be true —
Lena: A Black artist doesn’t get to do what?
Carmen: Yeah, I feel you. I feel like you do what you do —
Lena: Because you would never say because there’s Tarantino again, going back and looking at Django as just… you know…
Carmen: I do think what I’m hearing in what you’re saying — just to bring it back round to Twenties and a frustration that I definitely feel you on, is “where do I get to have the full breadth of my work?” Right?
Because Tarantino did get to make Django. Tarantino also made Pulp Fiction, Tarantino made a billion and.. to be fair I just tried to think of a non-violent Tarantino movie, and that was never going to work. But I think what someone… like what F. Gary Gray has been able to do is that he may make Set It Off, but he also gets to make some very light hearted action movies.
And what you’ve been able to do, in a way that no one’s been able to do, is tell a variety of our stories. And that is really —
Lena: Yes. The question becomes it’s because I’m queer, because I’m woman, now I’m being controversial.
We’re having a real conversation. I’m just trying to write things that are interesting to me. And then on other side, create opportunities for things that… I produced The Forty-Year-Old Version.
Carmen: Yeah. I love The Forty-Year-Old Version. Straight up love it.
Lena: I helped finance. I helped produce. Does that get as much talk?
Carmen: I think it’s really interesting for you bring up something like Forty-Year-Old Version. And what I appreciate, again, going back to the breadth of your career is that, in such a short amount of time, there’s very few people who have been able to do what you’ve been able to do in terms of bringing so many of our stories to light… because even Forty-Year-Old Version has a queer subplot in it, and a delightful one at that.
Lena: Yes, I agree!
Carmen: I think what’s really been so fascinating, being able to follow your career, is the way in which you have built such a variety of content. And I respect the frustration of what it must feel like for that variety of content to then be flatlined.
Lena: But the weird thing is that it’s not.
Carmen: iiiiinteresting.
Lena: I cannot fix my face to look at you and tell you that my career has not been a successful one.
Carmen: No, it’s real successful.
Lena: And because of that, and you know, by looking at my career, I’m not a person who’s going to say, “Let me close the door and sit by myself.”
Anyone can look at Hillman Grad mentorship lab, they see Rising Voices, AT&T — But it’s interesting how — and I’m saying the media, and I don’t know if I’m talking about you — but I am talking about the press, and how it gets how it gets covered. How queer Black masc women are covered.
Carmen: And I think that’s a really important point.
Look… I can’t even make an fully accurate comparison. I was trying to think of a comparison of who else has gone through this door this way that we can look at and say, “We can learn from this person’s career.”
Even if I was like, “We’ve had other mainstream queer content creators, writers, producers who have made it this far.” Right? Sure. We’ve even had a few Black queer mainstream content producers, media makers who have made it this far. But when you start thinking about masc Black lesbian content producers, that list gets very small. Of course Cheryl Dunye, Dee Rees. But who’s traveled this road in such a short amount of time? When I remember the fact that you literally just won the Emmy for Master of None, what, four years ago?
I don’t want to minimize what came before. But if we think of that as like your rocket launcher moment, that’s like four years, right? It does make it really hard because, there is no other comparison.
Lena: And imagine being me! And I think for me, that’s why I think I am very mindful of sometimes, how am I being covered? Because I’m thinking about those young people that are looking, that are watching. Are they like, “oh that’s how she’s actually being treated? Fuck it, I’m going to sit over here.”
Carmen: And I mean, to bring it back to Twenties, that’s something that I know tangibly changed someone’s life. When I watch BET, when I watch not just Twenties, when you watch the after show, I’m watching B. Scott talk about what it means to be non-binary on BET… I’m like, “That is tangibly changing someone’s life right now.”
Lena: Yes.
Carmen: And I think some of what you’re asking is, what does it also mean to take those licks from within a community? Because we’re not always just talking about… since we’ve already kept it 100 in this interview, we’re not necessarily talking about, “There’s a lot of white people who have these very complicated and nuanced feelings about your career.”
A lot of times the people who have these nuanced feelings are Black people, are queer Black people.
And so what does that mean? I guess is what it really comes down to is… I have to imagine it’s hard to have created such a body of work, in such a really short amount of time, and then also have to deal with so many conversations that happen around you.
That just must be really hard.
Lena: Yeah.
Well, my hope is it’s worth it and just the price of the ticket.
Carmen: Real talk.
Lena: Here we are. I don’t have a choice. I’m not going to walk away. Not from nobody. And it can be disheartening, you know? Because you can see it. You can see it. You can look at the print, look at the covers, look at how —
Carmen: It’s a lot to hold.
Lena: Yeah. But I’m going to hold it.
Carmen: This also brings it back to Twenties. Everything we’ve talked about, this whole interview, in so many ways it does weigh on this one show on a Black network, you know what I mean? It does, it weighs right in this moment.
I think, when we think about Twenties, it’s a show that still really hasn’t gotten a lot of attention. Who is finding it? Who gets a chance to even talk about it?
Autostraddle still has a large white audience and I’ve had people write me and say “I can’t find BET. You’re writing about this show that I can’t find.” And I’ve had to physically direct them to BET, to Amazon or YouTube for purchase, the first season is also available on Showtime… I’m like, “You can get the it one way or the other.”
Lena: And the truth is, this is what I’ll say, if people don’t show up for the show, it will go away. So that needs to be your lead sentence. The truth is, because what will happen is… Say we don’t come back — and also, I’m already working. I got a little idea that I’m trying to figure out to keep this thing going for a while — but the truth is, if it were to go away, do you know how many motherfuckers would be devastated?
Like for real. And the thing is, that’s what it almost feels like that’s what they want. They don’t want Twenties to exist. I don’t even know who they is… I’m just saying like —
Carmen: They, the powers that be.
Lena: Yeah! And it’s like… what types of shows are covered. Are we just going to keep looking over there or point over there like, “There’s a gay person over there… [somewhere] in the cut.”
No. We can be centered.
Carmen: We don’t have to be a sidekick —
Lena: Twenties needs to be a phenomenon to make it. And… [sighs]… yeah, it needs to be a phenomenon.
It’s this thing where we focus our attention on as a queer community — focusing on we don’t like vs. supporting what we do like.
Carmen: And if I can just jump in here, I’m going to tell you this because I can take the hits, it’s my magazine. Again, going back to a largely white audience, I will tell you as someone who does the work of monitoring and seeing our clicks… I said this online a few weeks ago, I’ll say it now in this article, we know that if I put two Black characters in the lead title, in the lead picture, that is going to get an estimate of 2/3rds less clicks. Not a third, not half, two-thirds less people are going to look at that.
I’ve started to be more vocal about saying that, because people need to know that. And if we’re going to talk about not only what it takes to even get a show like Twenties created, then we also need to talk about what it takes to get that show supported. That has to be a part of the conversation.
Again, I’m speaking about this from my side of things. I work at a publication that does have a largely white audience, but is having an actively growing Black audience and we have been growing it intentionally for like two, three years now.
And I’m really proud of that growth. And I am so excited to see in my Twenties recaps, we have, it’s mostly Black people making Black jokes, being in community together. I’m so grateful that I’ve been able to build that. We’re at a place right now where we finally have two Black editors on staff, and Shelli (our Culture Editor) is running a whole week that’s literally about strap on sex. Every image is of a Black person for the whole week. Today someone wrote in out of the blue, and they said “Carmen and Shelli, thank you. We see it.” And that was literally just today.
Lena: That’s amazing.
Carmen: Thank you. But also, at the same time, while we’re growing it, while we’re doing that work — I also face the reality of the fact that I have to write the Twenties recaps. 1) Because, I do love your work. I’m so excited to be writing about it. But 2) I can’t really justify paying someone else to write about it yet.
I mean, it’s a gift for me because I never get to write about Black shows this way, in such detail, as I do every week with Twenties, but two, it’s a reality where I’m like, “We have to get people to start showing up for our work.” You know what I mean?
Lena: Exactly. Exactly!!
Carmen: And that’s the reality of it, right?
Lena: And if there isn’t support, we will continue to not be in these universes, in theses spaces.
Carmen: Right. And I’m not really trying to go back to being the side character. I’m being real with you, I really am not.
Lena: How often do we have a queer Black person write about a queer Black character, played by a queer Black woman?
Carmen: Thank you!! That’s what I’ve been saying. How often does that happen?
Lena: And that happened because organically, I saw Jojo (Jonica Gibbs, Hattie, Twenties’ lead character) out there raising money for a web series. People maybe now know the story, but I donated and then got her on the phone. I asked, “What you trying to do?” Just really see where she was at. I wasn’t even expecting anything.
Carmen: I know we have to wrap up, thank you again! These are just two silly questions that I had written down and I will personally be mad at myself if I don’t ask.
Lena: Let’s go for it.
Carmen: Okay. The first one is, so obviously the name of your production company is Hillman Grad, and there’s your Hilman Grad mentorship lab. One thing that we share in common is that I always joke Debbie Allen is responsible for at least 50% of my personality. And I’ve always wondered what is your favorite episode of A Different World?
Lena: I have to give you more than one.
Carmen: Okay, please do!
Lena: Okay. “If I Should Die Before I Wake”…
Carmen: [snaps] Yeeeees. Tisha Campbell.
Lena: Yes! Then “The Cat’s in the Cradle.”
Carmen: Yes.
Lena: And “Mammy Dearest.”
Carmen: “Mammy Dearest,” that’s a good one. I really appreciate that. The dance choreopoem at the end of “Mammy Dearest” is one of my favorites.
Carmen: Okay, so my second question is… I feel like people ask this of Black queer people all the time, but I could not find your answer to it, so I was interested: When was the first time you remember seeing yourself on screen? Where you saw a character and you were like, “That reminds me of me”?
Lena: Definitely Tasha on The L Word.
Carmen: That feels correct.
Lena: Yeah. And then as cheesy as it sometimes sounds, the next was when I saw myself on screen.
Carmen: I think you’re probably the only person who can get away with saying that and it not be cheesy.
JoJo Siwa Didn’t Win DWTS, But She Remains the Housedyke’s Favorite
Like many queers of a certain age, JoJo Siwa first blipped on my radar earlier this year when she came out. Thanks to Riese’s invaluable Jojo primer, my knowledge of her has now crystallised as “YouTube something…dance something…giant bow something…gay.”
Some months later, it became apparent that JoJo was slated to appear on season 5382 of Dancing With the Stars. I am very familiar with the format thanks to my own mother’s long-running addiction to the UK progenitor, Strictly Come Dancing, and know all too well its ability to captivate an audience into a glitter-dazzled trance for exponentially increasing hours.
Because this website is an enabler of both the best and worst in me, I took a look at her first dance. I initially got a bit of that late-night internet stalking feeling, where I wasn’t too sure this content was something I should be taking an interest in. Of course, the problem is that these days the internet is the one stalking us, so that one click was all it took for the algorithms to start serving me JoJo’s dances on a weekly basis. I am at peace with this situation, but could probably do with some JoJo dance processing, so here we are now!
Latest Update: 11/23/2021
THE FINALE
Well, we’re finally here. It’s been a long 10 weeks for a combined 20 minutes and 46 seconds of JoJo actually dancing (yes, I counted). Has it led to JoJo and Jenna’s ultimate triumph or was it just an extended sequin-clad learning experience for us all? Let’s find out!
Before we get onto the dances, it may be useful to get the low-down on JoJo’s competition for the coveted Mirror Ball. For the first time, I’m breaking my rule of not watching the non-JoJo dances so I can provide a thorough commentary, a decision I am only marginally regretting now!
The rival competitors are: Amanda Kloots, a former dancer and TV presenter I’ve never heard of; Cody Rigsby, a former dancer and Peloton instructor (?!) I’ve never heard of; and Iman Shumpert, a basketball player I’ve never heard of who has shockingly never been a dancer. Immediately I clock Iman as the danger: he ticks all the boxes for viewers who love to see “the journey” of non-dancers from awkward lumpy dancing to slightly less awkward lumpy dancing.
Of course, JoJo has been a journey of her own, as we see in her VT before the first dance, where she persuades us that she was actually not that confident when this whole thing started, but has surely blossomed now!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2vZ_-Ssi9Y
JoJo’s first dance is a tango/cha-cha fusion. I believe “fusion” means we have even less chance than usual of seeing a dance in a recognisable style with sympathetic music. Sure enough, to the resounding beat of Icona Pop’s “I Don’t Care” JoJo and Jenna deliver the kind of high-energy performance we come to expect, kicking things up a notch compared to their first go-around of these dances. I think the tango portion is the strongest, mostly because JoJo’s hips always look a bit on the leaden side to me in the cha-cha. Undoubtedly the highlight of the dance is when JoJo and Jenna whip their skirts off as they transition between styles, giving me serious Eurovision vibes. The judges are in the party mood and declare yet another perfect score for the pair!
Now it’s time for JoJo’s final reflections on the season. After appropriate gushing about her own personal transformation under Jenna’s guidance, JoJo expresses her excitement at freestyling to Lady Gaga’s Born This Way. Yes, JoJo is not going to be holding back with the gay! She is adamant that everyone should dance with the girls they want to dance with!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwRgg7g94wE
For the freestyle, JoJo and Jenna have been generously furnished with backing dancers and are portentously dressed as deconstructed mirror balls. JoJo looks like she’s having the time of her life, and the pair reprise various moves from their time on the show. Dance-wise, I’m not sure we see anything massively new from them but they’re certainly giving it their all, and the pièce de resistance comes at the end when all the backing dancers reconfigure themselves in same-sex pairings to drive this whole shebang home.
The judges are effusive once again with their praise and remind us that we have been watching two women dance this whole time, isn’t that crazy? There is a delightfully bizarre comparison of Jenna to Joan of Arc and Bruno says he wishes he’d had someone like JoJo to look up to when he was a kid. Everyone is very emotional and they get a full house of 10s again!
But will it be enough! Surveying the rival freestyle dances, it’s pretty much anyone’s game. Cody’s camp number I think actually out-gays JoJo, and Amanda’s starts strongly with some aerial dancing before I totally lose her in a sea of identikit backing dancers. I feel like Iman is struggling with the male dancer equivalent of the sexy lamp test, as he’s essentially just existing while his pro partner burns up the stage around him.
The elimination swiftly sees off Amanda and Cody, leading to the match-up I’d been dreading: it’s JoJo versus Iman. Has JoJo managed to recruit enough A-list celesbian vote getters this week to grab the top spot? Unfortunately, she has not! Iman takes the win, much to my dismay, if not to my complete surprise. I explained to my wife about the British concept of a “housewive’s favourite” – aka an affable man on TV that will appeal to the stereotypical middle-aged woman that’s the key demo for shows such as this. She countered that surely the housedyke’s favourite has to count for something?
I do wonder if it was all a bit too gay too soon for JoJo to win. It’s pretty incredible that despite knowing how many people would be up in arms about a same-sex pairing, no-one on the show ever shied away from foregrounding it at every given opportunity, which is a win in itself. Although this wraps up our communal experience living through JoJo’s dance quest, I think she’s firmly established herself as a young queer star who’s here to stay.
SEMI FINAL: ARGENTING TANGO & CONTEMPORARY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLkQdMaUeVA&ab_channel=DancingWithTheStars
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0LDBAispSI&ab_channel=DancingWithTheStars
It’s the semi-final and we have two full dances in store! First up is something they are calling a redemption dance. It is unclear at first what this means, but I am confident JoJo will do very well because queers on TV are great at redemption arcs. It turns out this just involves judge Len Goodman telling them to have another go at the Argentine tango, and this time dance it like they’re girlfriends rather than a married couple. Also he wants them to ooze? This is something I’ll have to unpack later, but I’m agreeing strongly with Len right now.
The dance itself is a big improvement on their Britney Argentine tango. Firstly, it is to real tango music! Yes, we have the theme I’ve been waiting for all season: Just Some People Dancing Week. Liberated from the tyranny of trying to make dance styles fit wildly unsuitable music, JoJo and Jenna deliver a standout performance. There are leg flicks! Close-body holds! Plus: slinky outfits! There’s something for everyone here, including all the judges, who duly award a round of perfect scores. Hurrah!
No sooner can you say “skip to the next YouTube video” than we are on to their second dance. This is the nebulous contemporary dance. While I’m ever hopeful that one day someone will try emulating Julia Stiles’s Juilliard audition from Save the Last Dance, my expectation is for everyone to look very pained while pretending to dust, artfully.
I think we’re onto a winner here though. The aesthetics are 100% the morning after the 90s lesbian sex rumba the night before. JoJo seems to have found her groove in a run of dances where she can lean into her physicality, and she’s obviously working her leg-warmers off to pick up the next level choreo. I am genuinely floored by the slow motion cartwheel JoJo pulls Jenna into. I am equally floored that I casually used “choreo” like I’m not gleaning all my dance knowledge from YouTube comments.
To me, it feels like a foregone conclusion they’ll get another perfect 40, but JoJo is taking no chances and deploys her crying grandma to defeat the judges. That makes a blemish-free 80 in total, so they must be going through to the final, right?? Fortunately for our frail queer hearts, JoJo again has our backs and has tapped up some A-listers on Instagram to get out the vote, including queer faves Demi Lovato and Cara Delavagina. They are the first couple safely through, although I’m not sure that counts for anything because Tyra Banks has been gaslighting me about the meaning of “in no particular order” for almost two months now.
So, what do we think will happen in the final? I’m confident that JoJo and Jenna are the strongest pairing technically, but I’m not sure that guarantees the win. When I explained to my wife that less talented men do disproportionately well she immediately replied “are we just talking about the show?” Definitely on the UK version the lower scoring guys have a decent shot at success if they capture that elusive mantle of housewives’ favourite. Could the final come down to a battle of the celesbian machine vs middle-aged housewives of America?! Let’s reconvene next week and find out!
SALSA & RUMBA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9CMYOPFhqk&ab_channel=DancingWithTheStars
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUlFphicjT4&ab_channel=DancingWithTheStars
After last week’s dip into the bottom two, JoJo and Jenna are not messing around with their salsa. From the get-go, JoJo is lifting Jenna with the core strength of someone who would definitely make it past day 8 of 30 Days of Yoga with Adrienne.
I have to admit that when I saw this week’s theme was Janet Jackson, I was not sure how her music would translate to whatever spray of dance styles would be on offer. But this salsa is working for me! There are all sorts of head loops and dips and shimmies that read recognisably as salsa, so I feel like we’re getting a substantial dance meal to offset the flashier parts.
I quickly twig that this week’s approach to hoodwinking the primetime audience about the fact they’re watching two women grind up on each other is to simply cram in more shit than they can process. If you’re still wondering how JoJo flipped Jenna over her head, you’re not going to clock how Jenna somehow cartwheeled onto JoJo in an upside-down split for a very crotch-centric spin, right? The judges are equally steam-rollered and award a well-deserved 39.
But that’s not it! With the contestants having been whittled down over the past 9 weeks, there’s time to ram another routine in. What’s more it’s a dance-off! This format is more sedate than the combative dance warfare I envisaged, with JoJo and Jenna merely dancing alongside rival couple Olivia Jade and Val, who is Jenna’s husband! I feel like Val’s presence is mostly to assert Jenna’s heterosexuality, kind of like the show is doing a big “no homo.”
Why is this necessary? Because the couples are dancing a rumba, a dance I previously compared to a sex scene in a terrible 90s lesbian movie. The evidence at hand:
- Everybody’s dressed for bed, and definitely at the sexier end of the cozy-sexy spectrum
- JoJo and Jenna’s routine ends with a forehead press
- Someone cries (me, 100% lesbian aunt tears of pride)
Also like many lesbian terrible films, there’s a guy getting in the way a lot. I really wish we’d got a dedicated full-screen rumba for JoJo and Jenna because I feel like we’re finally getting to see the kind of grown-up JoJo we’ve had emergent glimpses of throughout the course of the competition. Also, the rumba is super hard! While in many dances JoJo has blasted through with speedy athleticism, the slower rumba really exposes the dancers’ connection and technique.
Anyway, despite being very busy learning two complex dances that she knocked out the park, somehow JoJo also found time this week to educate her youthful fanbase about the existence of live TV, meaning she’s safely voted through to the semi-finals!
TANGO
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhmILko7rT8&ab_channel=DancingWithTheStars
It’s another week and another theme: Queen. JoJo and Jenna stride out onto the stage dressed as matching Barbarellas, all figure-hugging spandex, to dance the tango to Body Language, a song where 50% of the lyrics are “give me your body.” My fears resurface that we may be about to witness a sexy dangerous dance that both middle America and I will not be able to cope with, for wildly different reasons.
Honestly, despite JoJo and Jenna’s obvious dancing prowess, I am not blown away by this dance. More than ever it feels like we’re watching two girls at the club, and I am really not sure about that synchronised hair pull. This does not feel like a performance aimed at a crotchety lesbian whose interest would be more piqued watching a synchronised IKEA bed frame assembly.
I am swiftly shaken from my indifference when JoJo and Jenna end up in the bottom two. I curse everyone that’s ever slighted JoJo including the entire US, the UK education system, and myself a few sentences ago. I’ve not been watching anyone else’s dances because I don’t want to sully my fantasy of an all-queer dance utopia, however it seems impossible that the straight contestants could be better in any way. Fortunately, the cosmic blip that led to this situation is halted by the judges, who unanimously vote to save our unbowed heroine.
There are two shows left before the final and it’s the first time we’ve seen any fallibility of the JoJo and Jenna juggernaut. I am confident that we’ll see a swell in support off the back of this, but in this day and age who really has confidence in any voting system?
JAZZ
https://youtu.be/kVQQgwc1To0
It’s horror week and JoJo is embodying my joint-greatest fear — Pennywise from It. This forces me to spend the whole 90 second routine watching from between my fingers, giving the overall effect of a zoetrope of dance terror.
Apparently JoJo and Jenna are dancing in the style of jazz which, as far as I can tell from any other show like this, just means pretending you are in Chicago. What went wrong here! Who took the canes and bowler hats and replaced them with nightmare tutus! What’s worse is that JoJo looks like she’s having tremendous fun doing this. I am momentarily pulled out of my stunned repulsion to admire the no-hands flip and a disarmingly graceful pirouette.
For the finale, JoJo tears Jenna’s hand off and starts monstrously devouring it. I was never a musical theatre kid, but I’m fairly certain this is not what “jazz hands” are meant to be. I’m too scared to even make a fisting joke!
Needless to say, JoJo is awarded another perfect score and Google will ensure clips of this dance will haunt me forever.
FOXTROT
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxiZEFEvnr0&ab_channel=DancingWithTheStars
We are straying into Gal Pal territory with this Grease-themed foxtrot. Ostensibly, JoJo and Jenna are dressed up as Sandy and Frenchie, where Sandy-JoJo kind of dance-emancipates herself with encouragement from Frenchie-Jenna. They are clearly pushing the friendship angle, and I am clearly wondering why I never considered Pink Lady on Pink Lady action before. Did you know that there is only one Sandy/Frenchie fanfic on AO3? I feel there’s a collective cultural failing here.
Anyway, the dancing is very good! I think JoJo’s getting to the stage now where things are looking a lot less effort, and I have fewer worries about her exuberance taking someone’s eye out.
JoJo and Jenna get a perfect score! Everyone is happy for them! Are they sisters?
Now we are approximately halfway through the competition, it’s time to take stock of the situation and what may lie ahead for JoJo.
With the paso and Argentine tango done, I do wonder if the producers were trying to get the sexiest dances out of the way early. The remaining concern is probably the rumba. The rumba is essentially a 90s lesbian movie sex scene in dance form. Considering there’s already been two Disney-themed dances and a Grease night, it seems only fair that we have a “Terrible Lesbian Film Week” where JoJo and Jenna dance the rumba in stylised high-waisted jeans, in a routine fraught with forehead presses and toe curls and then they cry at the end.
PASO DOBLE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBY97D__DxA&ab_channel=DancingWithTheStars
The paso doble is a dance that typically comprises one minute of faffing around with a cape and one minute of moody stomping. Traditionally, this is all supposed to be some kind of allegory for a bullfight, with the woman as the bull and the guy as the matador. This is definitely a more vegan-friendly take, with JoJo and Jenna giving me strong messy exes vibes. We must all hope this is not a play-by-play of a potential puppy custody battle between JoJo and Kylie.
VIENNESE WALTZ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-QBiotX4xE&ab_channel=DancingWithTheStars
It’s the first of two Disney-themed dances and JoJo is a prince! I wonder if there were many behind-the-scenes debates about which side of the Disney princess/prince divide they’d come down on. While JoJo’s getup is about as masculine as the average boyband member, I am pleased with this outcome. My wife says this is all very heteronormative, but after three weeks of high-femme action, I am confident that Prince JoJo is going to be causing several million pre-teens to have a little think about things.
As for the actual dance, they spin around a lot and I am only moderately dizzy by the end of it. Success!
ARGENTINE TANGO
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ncs06UwPe2Y&ab_channel=DancingWithTheStars
It’s the third week and we’re already onto Argentine tango, which gives me pause. This is a dangerous sexy dance! The sexy comes from the fact the dance is essentially a close-body seduction to music, and the danger is because the seduction could be killed at any point if you accidentally leg-flick your pointy dance heel into your partner’s groin.
The potential frisson is dissipated somewhat by the fact they’re dancing to “Baby One More Time,” and middle America breathes a sigh of relief that Swedish-produced pop is guaranteed to erase the words “sultry” and “seductive” from their vocabulary before they have to think too hard about these women pressing their bodies against each other.
JoJo is very clearly dancing the lead! Plus, she’s wearing a pink plaid dress with only 50% sparkles, which I imagine is the closest this show gets to butch lesbianism. JoJo has no problems swinging Jenna through their various lifts and twirls with the kind of competence that deserves a lanyard.
CHA CHA CHA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBIXEN3Japo&ab_channel=DancingWithTheStars
Without any bow weighing her down on head or costume, possibly for the first time in her life, the world is astonished see that JoJo is 7ft tall. Will she be auditioning for the live-action reboot of She-Ra? I hope so.
Like most of the Latin dances, the cha cha is heavy on hip action, to which JoJo applies herself with a vigour that could sideswipe a lorry. Once again, I am unsure about who is leading, because both Jenna and JoJo seem to be doing the spinny bits and splits that I always thought the follower did. Things are clarified right at the end when they kind of dip each other simultaneously, which is both physically alarming and a clear statement that both these women are in charge! I hope this dance move is federally protected.
QUICKSTEP
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPPpEALxZBQ&ab_channel=DancingWithTheStars
Immediately I’m relieved to identify JoJo courtesy of the giant bow stuck to her top. The aesthetic for her and partner Jenna’s outfits appears to be harem-casual, the music is Australian alt-rock, and the dance is a ballroom classic dating back 100 years. Struggling to work out what is really going on here, I tap into my deep dance knowledge to remember that the quickstep is thus named because you have to do steps, very quickly. This is definitely happening!
Unfortunately the quickness and culturally-dubious leg-wear is making it hard to tell who is leading and who is following. I feel thwarted in attempts to reflect on how gender roles are at play, because the only gender on display appears to be “chaos.” My overriding thoughts are: “It’s two girls dancing!” Then I worry that “girls” is a little diminishing, so I correct to: “two women dancing, one of whom was not yet alive when I was sitting my finals at uni.”
There’s Something About a Vulnerable Bad Boi With a Troubled Past
“There’s Something About” is a series where writers chat about the type of babes that make them all hot and bothered by showing you fictional Pop Culture hotties that fit the bill.
These bad bois (and grrrls) fall somewhere in between the type of people I am legitimately into in real life and hot people I would date in an alternate reality. Would I actually go out with a soulless vampire who has murdered thousands? I hope not! Would I make the mistake of falling for a Shane-type? Sadly yes.
Are there two characters from Buffy the Vampire Slayer on this list of four people? Of course, because the series’ two bad bois who I first encountered in my teenagehood were likely the start of this whole type which I’m apparently stuck with for life now.
Faith — Buffy the Vampire Slayer
I’ve said it before but I’ll say it again: Faith on Buffy the Vampire Slayer is my root. From the moment she arrives, acting all cool and tough and sexy and sharing stories about wrestling alligators in the nude, she had my heart. Of course, even in the first episode where she appears, we see she isn’t as tough as she seems — she is terrified of the vampire who killed her watcher and eventually opens up about it. It also becomes increasingly clear that, unlike Buffy, for her becoming a slayer was a big improvement over the life she’d had so far. Going over to the dark side later (hot!) is a result of no one looking out for her. Faith just wants Buffy to love her!!
*Shout-out to Sarah Michelle Gellar playing Faith in Buffy’s body and delivering this jaw-dropping monologue to Spike: “I could ride you at a gallop until your legs buckled and your eyes rolled up. I’ve got muscles you’ve never even dreamed of. I could squeeze you until you pop like warm champagne and you’d beg me to hurt you just a little bit more. And you know why I don’t? Because it’s wrong.”
Spike — Buffy the Vampire Slayer
Speaking of Spike: Faith is a vampire slayer and Spike is a vampire, but otherwise, they are so alike. They both just want Buffy to love them! Oh, Spike does a good job appearing the classic bad boi with his Billy Idol look (Billy stole it from him, remember?), his punk music taste, and his murderous schemes. But we all know he started out as a big softie writing terrible love poetry and he is very much still that guy. I mean, there’s a reason Harmony nicknamed him blondie bear. He’s also the guy who loved his mom so much he turned her into a vampire only to have her go super creepy and try to assault him, causing him to have to kill her. Ouch, that’s a troubled past and a half.
Shane — The L Word
Shane as the epitome of my type is a bit embarrassing to admit because it is so basic, but I’m being honest here. Shane was a big part of my coming out circa 2006. I’m mostly referring to Shane as she appears in the original series, as a lady-killing, non-committal, rakish lesbian. The Shane who had such a heart of gold that she forgave and slept with (again!) the woman who was stalking her and putting up slanderous posters all over town (Great performance, Tammy Lynn Michaels). Like Faith and Spike, she has the look and feel of the bad boi down pat: tousled hair, ample dark eyeliner, and low husky voice. We also know Shane’s childhood was shitty, her dad left, and she spent some time on the streets. But despite that background, she’s consistently the series’ most loyal friend and really has grown up in Generation Q — I think.
Frankie — Lip Service
Is Frankie just Scotland’s answer to the American Shane? Maybe! But I am talking about my type here, so if Frankie is a lot like Shane that’s not my fault. She also has tousled hair, wears lots of dark eyeliner, and had a troubled childhood with shitty and/or absent parents! Perhaps to differentiate her from her American counterpart, Frankie is refreshingly bisexual, something we don’t see a lot with androgynous women characters. She runs around acting all bad, partying, sleeping around, and behaving terribly most of the time. She starts the series having ditched her one true love Cat right after convincing her to leave her current girlfriend for her. But it’s just because she was scared and didn’t think she deserved Cat, not because she’s really bad!
Okay people, tell me I’m not alone in loving these bad bois with troubled pasts and ooey-gooey vulnerable centers. And please, share with me more examples of these irresistible baddies so I can expand my repertoire.
There’s Something About a Commanding But Goofy Tomboy
“There’s Something About” is a series where writers chat about the type of babes that make them all hot and bothered by showing you fictional Pop Culture hotties that fit the bill.
I watched a lot of television as a young person, and I was also a nerdy goody-two-shoes desperate to fit in with the populars. So it’s no surprise to me that the characters that burrowed into my psyche (in what I now recognize as crushes) are a sort of a rebellious but still silly tomboy. I never understood the whole brooding bad boy thing, but someone who could stand up to the meanies in their universe and also had a silly side has always done it for me.
Is this just the closest thing to soft butch representation I saw on TV in that era? Maybe! In real life, I tend to be the louder, more intimidating person in my relationships, but that doesn’t stop me from crushing on these characters or imagining us arguing over who is better at opening jars in our partnership.
Callie Torres – Grey’s Anatomy
Callie is a badass orthopedic surgeon who frequently wrestles the bones of professional athletes back into their sockets! Portrayed as an outsider from the beginning of her stint on Grey’s, Callie loves the gore and grit of ortho, and for a bit lives in the basement of the hospital in an honestly pretty cool but grungy cave. Rocks a leather jacket, intimidates the hell out of the mean girl clique at the hospital and is still goofy enough to dance around in underwear. Dream babe. (And it’s just icing on the cake that Callie was played by the irl nonbinary dream babe Sara Ramirez.)
Missy – Bring It On
While Bend It Like Beckham is the canonical “gay but not” film from this era, I have to acknowledge the searing gay tension in Bring It On. From the moment Missy uses her finger to smear the fake arm tattoo she’s given herself, I was smitten, and honestly so was Torrance! And though I wish she hadn’t had to conform to the cheer teams looks, who can forget the silly little dance she does when revealing her cheer uniform to a car full of teammates?
Khadijah James – Living Single
This show was my favorite to watch any time I stayed home sick from school as a kid, and I’m honestly due for a rewatch. I don’t remember any specific plots or episodes, but what’s never ever left my mind are all the jerseys Khadijah wears, her being an absolute boss in her romantic relationships and career, and. that. SMILE! It was enough to manifest a lifelong love of Queen Latifah in me. Forever and ever, babe.
Robin Scherbatsky – How I Met Your Mother
Let’s get one thing out of the way first: is How I Met Your Mother a good show? No, and on top of that, it’s frequently transphobic, racist, homophobic, misogynist, the list goes on. But. BUT. Robin Scherbatsky, the on-again-off-again girlfriend to the excruciatingly boring and often horrible lead man on the show, made a compelling argument for me to watch every episode of this show ever made….TWICE. Once a Canadian teen star whose biggest song was “Let’s Go to the Mall,” Robin is now a newscaster who swills scotch, smokes cigars, and doesn’t ever want to settle down. She swears, she’s loud, and she’s sometimes mean for no reason. She’s perfect and I would never ever ask her to settle down. RIP to Ted Mosby, but I’m different.
Upon reflection, what we have here is a classic case of “Do I want to be them, or be with them?” I think it’s a little of both, and it’s changed over time.
When I was younger and still hoping to impress frat bros in college or the straight boy jocks at my high school, I loved that these characters were “not like other girls,” that they were cool AND hot, extremely confident in themselves, and above all — wanted. I really wanted to be like that, so assured in my own skin. And now that I’m older, wiser, and a lot gayer — I mean, more confident! — I understand that I don’t just want to be like them, I also want to date them.
I Can’t Believe Gwyneth Paltrow’s Goop Sex Show Actually Self-Helped Me
I try, as a general rule, to not know what Gwyneth Paltrow is up to, Goop-wise, because one time in 2017 I got a Goop magazine to try to make a silly post out of it and I still haven’t recovered from the knowledge that some people spend thousands of dollars for an exfoliator made out of like gold dust and unicorn dander. Also Gwyneth Paltrow’s definition of “wellness” in the Letter From the Editor was the most bananapants thing I have ever read in my life, like, “Wellness is a proposition, a preposition, a supposition, it’s nutrition, optician, suspicion, volition, an expedition with ambition of redefinition!” Not just gobbledygook nonsense, but expensive gobbledygook nonsense. Through the years, Goop has endorsed a candle that smells like a famous orgasm, vampire repellent, vagina rocks, and some kind of silent dog whistle necklace that’s supposed to make you feel like you’re meditating when you blow into it.
So you can understand why I was skeptical of Paltrow’s new Netflix show, Sex, Love & Goop, in which “courageous couples journey toward more pleasurable sex and deeper intimacy with help from Gwyneth Paltrow and a team of experts.” But it did promise lesbians, and so of course I watched.
Over the course of six episodes, lots of different couples meet with lots of different sex therapists to try lots of different techniques to have more fulfilling sex lives. Their struggles range from classic mismatched sex drives to classic mismatched in-bed desires; and the approaches for helping them range from crawling around sniffing each other’s butts to exploring a handcrafted vulva model to that thing Bette Porter did with Candace the Carpenter in season one of The L Word where she had psychic sex with her using just her brain and her horniness. And then there’s Shandra and Camille, a very sweet and shy baby gay couple who meet with erotic wholeness coach Darshana Avilaust and just want to know more about how lesbians have sex.
Camille used to be a dancer and has a lot of shame around her body, especially when she feels like it isn’t perfect; Shandra used to be an athlete and has a lot of shame around her body, especially because she gained weight when she got older and didn’t look like a teenager with a racehorse metabolism anymore. Darshana wants to teach them some sex positions, and how to use some standard sex toys, and just some basics like that — but first, she’s curious if those body image issues are getting in the way of their shared pleasure. And surprise! They are! So she asks them to participate in some “mirror work,” where they take off as much clothes as they want and stand in front of the mirror and talk about how they feel about their own bodies.
When the butt-sniffing and psychic sex were happening, I’ll admit I was also playing Stardew Valley on my Nintendo Switch, but when the lesbians started talking about their tummies and thighs and breasts and necks and faces, and listening to each other and affirming each other and just holding space for the other person’s insecurities, I put down my game and started crying my homosexual eyeballs out.
A few months ago, before I had surgery on my spine, over a year into a ceaseless battle with Long Covid, my wife slid into beside me one night and tucked her head under my chin and said, “Should we try to have sex before your surgery?” Which was a good question for a lot of reasons. For starters, we didn’t know how long I was going to be in a whole neck brace situation after surgery, or how much PT it’d take for me to be able to hold my head up by myself again, or how much pain I’d be in. All we knew was even our cats were going to be too heavy for me to lift. And then there’s all the billion things Long Covid is doing to me on a daily basis, from migraines to air hunger to excruciating joint pain to fatigue. Sex has been sporadic since I became chronically ill, even for a lesbian couple 11 years into a monogamous relationship. I said “Yes, of course!’ because I love having sex with my wife and she was right that we should be planning ahead.
As we lay in bed afterward, I couldn’t stop laughing. Because I was giddy from the endorphins and serotonin and all that, but also because I had truly forgotten that my body was capable of feeling like anything other than a pain prison — until my wife reminded me with her body that there’s still lots of ways I can feel good too. I didn’t deal with the anguish underneath that laughter, not that night, because I so rarely feel AWESOME and that night I felt AWESOME.
No, the ache underneath my giggles didn’t come crying out of my eyeballs until I was watching Gwyneth Paltrow’s wacky sex show. And, look, sure sure sure, it’s annoying that the other couples on Sex, Love & Goop just get to flat out do sex stuff and the lesbians also have to do emotional stuff — but cliches are cliches for a reason, which I proved by sobbing about my body while Shandra and Camille sobbed about their bodies.
Begrudgingly, I admit Sex, Love & Goop helped me start to process my own hang ups about how I was letting my disabled body steal the joy of having sex with my wife. So: fine. Gwyneth Paltrow wins this one. But I’m still not buying any vagina gravel.
On Blackness and “The L Word: Generation Q”
When The L Word: Generation Q returned for its second season, we were so prepared to fall back into the messy gay drama and hot sex and, well, Bette Porter saying “fuck” but also this time hopefully “fuck me” and to a dark-skinned Black woman for the first time in the show’s history.
Generation Q Season One was not perfect in its treatment of Black and POC characters, but in many ways it was an important step away from the original series which famously privileged its white characters and treated its breathtakingly few characters of color as a joke or afterthought. There was so much upside and potential back then in August, when we were so young! And with nine characters, Season Two had more Black cast members than any other in L Word history. But as the second season progressed, a thread became more apparent: Generation Q was sidelining, undervaluing, and leaving their Black characters behind.
Autostraddle Culture Editor Shelli Nicole, writers Dani Janae and Natalie (who also compiled our questions), and Editor-in-Chief Carmen Phillips got together to talk about the Generation Q’s second season, how it (often) failed its Black characters, and ask if there was anything good to left save or any room left to fix it.
In our roundtable after Gen Q’s first season, we talked about the lack of melanin in Bette’s inner circle. So imagine that you’re Bette’s friend: give Bette Porter one piece of advice that her white friends won’t.
Natalie: Stop wearing those blazers?
Shelli: Get Over Yourself & Go To Therapy — You can afford it. Respectfully.
Dani: You say Pippa made you think about your Blackness and queerness in new ways, maybe spend even more time thinking about those things outside the context of your love life?
Carmen: I’m going to offer this up to the universe: Girl, Make Some Black Friends. You need Black people in your life that you aren’t related to by blood or banging. Ideally back in like ‘78 or ‘88 or ‘98. Ideally in 2004 (when The L Word first started). But most certainly now. You need it. Your daughter needs it. It’s time.
I don’t want to date anyone that I have to teach about Blackness.
Last season, Bette had an affair with Felicity but we never got to see that flourish into a full-blown relationship but this season she begins dating black artist Pippa Pascal (played by Vanessa Estelle Williams). What do you make of Pippa Pascal? How do you feel about her relationship with Bette?
Natalie: First and foremost: I love this casting choice. One of the issues that came up during our conversation last year was that Gen Q was lacking dark-skinned characters and so we’ve gotten that with the addition of Vanessa Williams to the cast. But also, it matters to me that it’s Vanessa Williams… someone who comes from Black entertainment — Soul Food, New Jack City, Candyman — and has cachet within our community.
Carmen: I completely agree! Casting Vanessa Williams specifically, given her long history in Black Hollywood, was so meaningful to me. It felt like we were going somewhere.
Shelli: I LOVE Vanessa Williams, and Gen Q is lucky that someone like her said yes to doing this role, and they should have def treated her better.
Natalie: That said, I want a reason to cheer for the character besides the fact that she’s played by a beloved actress… and, so far, Gen Q hasn’t given me a reason to? The problem with Pippa Pascal is that so much of her narrative is rooted in a past we didn’t see. Almost everything we know about her we’re told, not shown, and that makes it difficult — for me at least — to forge a connection with the character.
As to her relationship with Bette, two things stand out:
First, we’ve seen Bette fall for an enigmatic artist before and, knowing that Bette’s still carrying these unresolved feelings for Tina, it’s hard to get over that feeling of déjà vu. Is Pippa anything other than Jodi Lerner, V2.0? I’m not sure the show’s given us reason to believe she is.
Second, I’m wondering: we know that Pippa checks off all of Bette’s boxes but why is Pippa interested in Bette? I think about Bette telling Pippa that she’s reckoning with her queerness and Blackness in ways that Bette hasn’t; the show clearly means it as a compliment for Pippa but I take it as a slight against Bette (though I’m certain the show doesn’t intend it to be). How does that relationship work — and why would Pippa want to be in it, frankly — if they are so far apart in their understanding of their own queerness and Blackness, especially at this moment?
Their relationship just doesn’t feel authentic to me.
Shelli: I think you are absolutely right! We don’t know much about her. I can’t connect with her because I don’t know anything about her. I would have much rather them have spent the season introducing us to this character that Bette is literally obsessed with and then see it play out in the next season. It proves to me that they don’t write Black characters in mind with staying power, they write them so they can be disposable depending on what the audience thinks of them.
I don’t know who wrote those storylines but it gives major “This is my first Black girlfriend energy” and I hate it. I don’t want to date anyone that I have to teach about Blackness. There is a difference between you peeling back more layers of your Blackness while you are with me, as opposed to our relationship being the catalyst to you understanding it. Like — you should have just made her date another non-Black person if you were gonna do that.
Also, it seems like Pippa was quite literally minding her own business and would have been just fine fucking fangirl Bette — but they pulled her out of this element, only to hurt her in the process.
Dani: Yeah, it really made me sad that Bette kinda pulled her out of “obscurity” and promised to protect her only to do what Bette does, mess up a professional relationship with sex and let someone down in the process. Like Pippa is a mother too, a Black mother, and that could have been explored more too. She was checking off all of Bette’s boxes — I would have loved to have seen that relationship work and for Pippa to receive all the respect she deserves.
That said, I personally am Pippa Pascal hive.
Carmen: PIPPA HIVE!!!!
Dani: I wish she had more of a storyline than to be so carelessly discarded by Bette. Here we have a Black queer artist who is doing important work in the context of talking about race and sexuality. I would have loved to have seen more of that, like show Pippa working on her art, working with her student artists, more of that please!
Carmen: I make no secret out of the fact that I’ve been pretty firmly Give Bette a Black Girlfriend 2kFOREVER since we first were introduced to Felicity back in Season One. I was (and am!!) completely ready to go into battle for Pippa, who’s already become one of my favorite L Word characters. I didn’t have any trouble connecting with her. I appreciate that Pippa values strong boundaries and stands up to Bette; I always think Bette works best in Top4Top relationships. I loved when she called Bette out on her shit about still being hung up on Tina in the (ahem, infamous in my memory) chapstick sharing scene!
But I agree, we never got a sense why Pippa would be with Bette. Not to project myself, but I’m a queer Black woman who is, like Pippa, very into my queerness and my Blackness, so much so that, like Pippa, I’ve literally turned it into my job. I think that’s true of all of us here. And I’m not trying to be anyone’s identity experiment.
Even with all of that, do I hope Pippa and Bette stay together? I sure the fuck doooooo! If Bette leaves Pippa for Tina (who again, I must dutifully remind everyone when I speak of her, that she didn’t even want a Black baby to begin with and that’s how we were introduced to her character in 2004) — 100% that’s going to be my villain origin story.
The excitement over Bette’s black girlfriend notwithstanding, there was a lot of consternation about the show’s treatment of its other black characters: killing Kit off last season, Quiara taking half of Shane’s money, despite the fact that she was the more successful of the two; Lena Waithe’s Eddie taking Shane’s money and then backballing Tess from the underground poker scene; Isis King’s blink and you missed it cameo as Claudia; and, of course, bringing Marcus Allenwood back just to kill him.
What do you make of what the show’s doing and how would you improve its treatment of black characters moving forward?
Shelli: It’s never been a secret that The L Word is not a world where Black queer folks heavily exist. They quite literally hate niggas and always have, this season was just the final stamp of them letting us know that. The reboot promised many a change, but it’s clear after two seasons that featuring Black queer folks in a fully fleshed out way is not and will never be something they care to do. This will forever be a show for thin, cis, caucasian lesbians.
The show thinks that doing things like giving Shane a Black ex-wife, bringing on Lena Waithe for a guest spot (are we not going to acknowledge that Shane quite literally stole her idea btw?), showing us Angie’s Black sister, bringing back her father (just to kill him and also for a portion of the show make it as though more of her Black family didn’t want her), and mentioning Black artists (I’m sorry but how the fuck do you not know who Kerry James Marshall is?!) is all they need to do to be diverse and inclusive — two words that Hollywood loves to use, but consistently executes poorly.
Dani: That Lena Waithe scenario was so fucked because we were supposed to empathize with Shane and it made Lena’s character seem so unreasonable. She goes from, “my wife can flirt with whoever she wants” to “fuck you, Tess is fired” SO QUICK. And that throwaway line about reparations!! *eyeroll* Like lol I need reparations after watching the treatment of Black characters in this show.
I think the whole storyline with Dani’s dad kind of overshadowed everything this season. We see that opioid-caused deaths are very personal for Bette, but we spend way more time watching Dani grapple over supporting her father’s heinous crimes.
It felt like the use of Black artist as a backdrop for the show was really unjust. Which brings us back to Pippa and her treatment. I get the cast has its core people, but that doesn’t mean you have to use Black art and Black issues as pawns to give your story some gravitas.
Shelli: Yes! Most of the Black characters on this show are an afterthought. Their plotlines are not wrapped up or even properly introduced. How dare you make a fictional show where the Black characters are so disposable, trauma based, or a tick on your checklist?
Natalie: After the second episode of this season — after Bette (OF ALL PEOPLE) #AllArtistsLivesMatters Isaac Zakarian’s offer of bonuses for BIPOC artists, and then everything about the poker storyline — I nearly quit watching the show. I posited two questions on Twitter: 1. Does Gen Q have any black writers in their writers’ room? and 2. If so, do they actually have any power?
The answer to question #1 is yes, but within a certain context. As far as I can tell, Gen Q has one black writer in the writers’ room, Maisha Closson. To put that in perspective: last season, when the show told fewer stories about blackness, there were two black writers in the writers’ room (Regina Hicks and Francesca Butler). I cannot fathom how a show decides to tell more black stories in its second season and also decides to hire fewer black writers at the same time.
That brings us to the second question: Did that black writer actually have any power? The answer to that question is evident in the storylines that the show produced this season: No. That’s not a reflection on Closson — whose work I’ve covered and enjoyed when she worked on Claws and How to Get Away With Murder — but more of a reflection of what happens when there’s only one in the room. There’s so much pressure on that one person and those are impossible conditions for a writer to succeed under. So many TV writers have told us that.
If there’s more than one black person in the room, if there’s an empowered black person in the room… maybe they avoid these egregious missteps, maybe they don’t have the racial blindspots that this show clearly struggles with.
Shelli: That’s 100% true, this is what happens when there is only one of us in the room and I can only imagine the wild pressure. I’ve been there. Fighting on your own to be heard can not only be a losing battle but a fucking tiring one.
To me, them reducing the amount of Black writers while simultaneously attempting to insert more Blackness just shows how performative it all really is. I’m HEATED, like — fuck y’all.
Carmen: I knew that Regina Hicks (from Insecure) had left between seasons, but I had not fully realized the other writer had also left!!!! I am H O T!!!
It’s very true that though Bette and Tina were so concerned with having a Black child, they never thought about building a life rich with other Black people to help raise that child, for her to see herself reflected.
Jordan Hull’s performance as Angie has really been a highlight of Gen Q’s second season. Perhaps her standout scene came in the fifth episode, “Lobsters, Too,” when she, Bette, Tina and Carrie all participate in a family counseling session with Micah.
Angie admits that part of the reason she wants to seek out her biological father is because she wants to know how he walks through the world as a black man. She also confesses that she wants to talk about race with someone who walks through the world being perceived as she is, rather than someone like Bette who can pass.
Angie: Also, you know that the two of us walk through this world differently, Mom.
Bette: I know. I mean, just because some white people mistake me for… Italian or whatever, that doesn’t mean that I don’t know who I am. And you know who I am.
Angie:I do. But it doesn’t change the fact… that you experience more privilege because of the way you look.
How did that scene resonate with you?
Dani: I enjoyed watching Angie call out Bette by saying “you don’t look like me and our experiences aren’t the same.” Like YES Angie! It’s very true that though Bette and Tina were so concerned with having a Black child, they never thought about building a life rich with other Black people to help raise that child, for her to see herself reflected.
Shelli: My favorite part of this season was Angie realizing that she needs more niggas in her life. She looked around and was like “DAMN — nobody here gets me.” Of course she feels that way — she comes from a family where her white mother questioned having a Black baby from jump, and her other mother is just now reckoning with the intersection of her queerness and Blackness after years of being out and surrounding herself with whiteness.
Carmen: Yes! Thank you. That’s exactly it.
Shelli: I just wanted to hold Angie — I am the aunt of three mixed race kids, two of them girls, who I know aren’t yet aware of who they are. I am their only Black aunt and they are surrounded by whiteness in every area of their life, from school to home and it’s been tough for me with their mother to not continuously overstep my boundaries. Not to get into too much detail about my personal life, but these kiddos have been heavily separated from their Black side of the family.
It’s hard to grapple with because I am not their parent, but I do love them and have responsibility to them as their aunt. When I look at what Angle is going through it assures me that I am doing the right thing by often overstepping those boundaries I spoke about earlier — sometimes sacrificing my relationship with their mother in order to show up as the person/example that they need.
If you make the conscious decision as a non-Black parent to have a Black child, you must think of their future. It’s 2021 and folks still don’t understand that, you don’t have to do the most but you have to fucking do something in order to minimize the possibility that they go through what Angie currently is. Be honest with your children and raise them with awareness of who they are to the best of your ability.
Bette makes a point, a few times this season, to Pippa that “You are reckoning with your own queerness and your Blackness in ways that I have… barely begun to unpack for myself.” How would you like to see Bette’s reckoning with her blackness and queerness play out on screen? Or is that something that you want to see?
Shelli: I HATED THIS. I don’t know if it’s even something I wanna see at this point. What the writers are basically trying to do, when they write lines like this, is apologize for the years that they put Bette’s Blackness on the back burner. I DON’T ACCEPT IT. They have made Bette such a type of character when it comes to her Blackness, I don’t feel bad for her in any way and it’s WILD that I don’t have empathy for a Black character.
Carmen: Oh actually I still have a lot of empathy for Bette! (call me her #1 apologist). She is absolutely being written as that type of Black person who doesn’t have any Black friends or connection to her community, and maintains a certain type of armor around it. No doubt. And is that the kind of person I keep in my personal life? Absolutely not. But I think there could be real depth there, because that is the reality for a lot of different types of Black folks, and they should also have some guidance on their journey. I wish the show would explore that with more honesty and nuance.
Natalie: See, I think people should get upset… or, at the very least, be disappointed. The original L Word ended in 2009 and Generation Q was supposed to be the opportunity to right the wrongs done by the OG series. Instead, it’s just perpetuating the same narratives and emphasizing the same POV (that is, white cis lesbians) that we saw in a show that debuted 17 years ago. And the show has the talent… these actors are so talented… but the writers fail them all the time. And, listen, I’m not asking the show to soar to extraordinary heights — all shows can’t be Vida — but saying, “hey, let’s not kill any more black people on this show” or “remember that trans lesbians exist” feels the lowest of low bars.
Shelli: That’s when I knew I had to make the decision to either keep watching the show and waiting for them to give me what I deserve as a Black Queer person, (from a show on a network with enough money and resources to do just that) or just watch it knowing what I’m gonna get and not complain anymore — what’s the saying in preschool? “You get what you get and you don’t get upset.”
Natalie: But, back to the question: A reckoning of blackness and queerness? With this writers’ room? No thanks. For chrissakes, hire more black writers or just leave our stories alone.
Dani: We never see Bette reckon with it! At least not on screen. The moments where she could have were overshadowed by other plot points. There’s someone very close to me in my life that grew up passing as white, and that person really reckons with that every day by using their art. Bette, an art lover and someone with a lot of capital, doesn’t really do that. And I hate that they have written her this way, because it would be soooo interesting to see her play out that journey on screen. I think the actors involved with the show are great. Jennifer Beals has the range to go there, but they aren’t letting her, and that’s a huge disservice.
I get it, the show is supposed to be fun and sexy, but if that’s the case why tackle the opioid epidemic in such an intense way, but leave Bette’s Blackness off the table? Are the writers afraid to really get down to the bones with that topic? Are they afraid to get it wrong? It just doesn’t feel like they are even trying. You have the power to hire more Black writers! To do research on passing narratives! All of that. The resources are there!
Give Rosanny Zayas more to do than to look pensive in response to whatever white woman she happens to be talking to at the moment.
Let’s talk about the Suarez sisters! What did you make of Sophie and Maribel’s storylines this season? Where did you think the show succeeded in providing their characters with the depth we were hoping for and where do you think the show failed?
Natalie: After Gen Q‘s first season, I was hopeful that the show would allow its new queer characters of color to take center stage. When it was announced that Jillian Mercado would play a bigger role this season, I thought I was getting my dreams fulfilled. But, oh no…
*Deep Negro Sigh*
I wanted more of the Suarez sisters. I wanted more of them together — family’s such a central part of Sophie’s story in the first season and it’s missing for the most of this season — and I wanted more for their individual storylines.
Give Rosanny Zayas more to do than to look pensive in response to whatever white woman she happens to be talking to at the moment. Don’t sell Micah and Maribel’s story as groundbreaking and as such important representation — though it clearly is both of those things — and then completely leave them out of multiple episodes! These actors are so talented and deserve so much better than what this show is giving them.
Dani: For Sophie, her whole storyline gets wrapped up in loving and caring for an alcoholic. And, to paraphrase beloved Autostraddle writer and podcastor Analyssa, as a person of quit-drinking experience, the show majorly gets that wrong too. I won’t spend this space pontificating about what alcoholism looks like and how movies and TV routinely get it wrong, I promise. But all we see of Sophie is her playing the grieving wife. She’s either dealing with Dani this season or running after Finley, and it’s not fair.
For Maribel, I thought they did a little better. Again, to reference are friends at the podcast “To L and Back”, they kinda made her unnecessarily combative and mean this season. I think it’s supposed to come off as no nonsense and “take no shit,” but she truly just comes off as not nice to be around. That said, I think the sex scene with her and Micah was really great! I loved seeing them tackle that.
Carmen: Yes, the Micah/Maribel sex scene was a season highlight, hands down. And I am glad that both Jillian Mercado and Leo Sheng have gotten a lot of good press this season off of that relationship, because it is important (and they have excellent chemistry together).
I actually think that Sophie and Maribel’s storylines had the easiest fix – they just need each other. The fact that Sophie was so connected to her family is what made me fall in love with her in the first season; she literally said that being around them made her feel freedom like she could breathe, it was such an authentic take on being an adult in a Latinx family — and one not often depicted in queer media, which for very real reasons often doesn’t portray a lot of biological family support — without falling into sterotypes. Bringing back Jillian Mercado in a larger capacity should have solidified that fact (and I loved knowing that Rosanny Zayas had another Dominican to play with on set), and instead it went so far in the opposite direction.
Even if you are a fan of Sophie and Finley, I think it’s safe to say that Sophie’s life blew up when Finley showed up at the wedding. She’s navigating all those waters without her sister? She’s grappling with Finley’s (poorly written) alcoholism, and where is Maribel? The only time we see the Suarez sisters cope with either of those very serious things in Sophie’s life, it’s to fight in front of the rest of their family. I call bullshit, that’s not how this works. They maybe would fight big, but they would make up big as well. Maribel wouldn’t leave her side. Conversely, Maribel is starting a relationship with one of Sophie’s best friends and roommate and where is Sophie in any of this? No way she wouldn’t be teasing the hell out of Maribel. And to that point, it’s not lost on me that one of the best scenes in the entire season, easily, is when Maribel, Micah, and Sophie are all together at Karaoke Night at Dana’s and Sophie fakes a phone call ON HER HAND to give the other two space.
Why didn’t we get to see more of that!?!? You have this rare opportunity with these two Afro-Latina actresses, to tell a Latinx story that we almost never get on television (have they ever even acknowledged that Suarezes are Dominican?? We know Dani’s entire family history), and you’re barely even using them! And Sophie is supposed to be one of the main characters! Why is it that after her backslide with Dani, her entire storyline is centered around her (white) boss or her (white) girlfriend. It’s negligent.
Generation Q hasn’t been picked up for a third season yet but if you could tell the Generation Q writers’ room one thing about Season Three and where they should go next, what would it be?
Natalie: First, I hope this show gets renewed, I truly do. I want this show to exist, I just want it to be better.
My advice: Hire black writers. Hire trans women writers. Do better.
Shelli: Honestly? Do us right or leave us the fuck out of it. I’m unsure if I’d watch another season.
I don’t have advice — I have questions and I TRULY want them answered.
What is their excuse? What do the creators and writers have to say for themselves? Let me hop on an IG live with them Ziwe style and put them on the spot and get some fuckin’ questions answered about why this beloved dykey show hates niggas so much. I don’t want their percentages, I don’t want to know about their diversity training, I don’t care about the amount of light research they did on AAVE or any of that shit — I want to know why they don’t care about Black queer people.
What is literally stopping you from flushing out Black characters? Why isn’t your writers’ room as Black as it should be? Why do you clearly not care about what your Black viewers think? Why should we keep giving you chances? Are you reading all the articles and tweets except the ones that critique how your show handles race, colourism, and more? Why are you not allowing Bette to actually evolve.
Dani: I don’t know if this is allowed for a roundtable, and not to compare two bad bitches, but Work In Progress is shown right after The L Word and the Black characters in that show, though secondary to Abby, are more flushed out than the primary Black characters on The L Word. And I find that FUNNY.
Shelli: The way I love Work In Progress is wild, they are so unafraid to get things wrong that they often get them right. Also, they have the greatness that is Sam Irby and many other Black folks behind the scenes. But it’s wild to me that a new show, without the following of The L Word (yet) manages to find many a nigga to work on the show and do the damn thing
Dani: Not only does The L Word need more Black writers, they need better writers. And I’m being empathetic: I know we need to move storylines along, but the way they are doing it is leaving behind a lot of casualties. I really wanted a fat, Black character this season, but now I don’t trust them to treat that character well.
Shelli: There is no way in hell that I want them to touch that, not after this season. Look what they did to Rosie’s charecter — they opted to make her the fat, butch person who is insecure and constantly comparing herself to everyone else, when in reality she is hot as shit and far doper than any of them could be.
Dani: The thing is — I complain, but I watched it every week. I rolled my eyes and screamed at the screen, but I watched. If all they care about is appeasing white Bettina shippers, they are failing to right a lot of the wrongs they set out to correct.
Carmen: That actually sums it up for me. Because ultimately it is about who’s the audience at this point, right? There were more Black characters on The L Word this season than its entire history, and I’ve never felt more isolated from the show.
I don’t know how that gets fixed, to be honest. I do hope that Generation Q gets renewed, because there is nothing else quite like it. I love the experience of watching people gather together at watch parties, making the same jokes together online. Despite all odds, it somehow becomes the only thing we want to talk about the entire time it’s with us, you know? It’s as much a community experience as it is any TV show.
I wish the creators of the show understood that. Black queer people are in this community. Trans queer people are in this community. And we deserve to get lost in a good time, too. We deserve fun, messy, sexy storylines. Just as much as any cis white woman over 50.
4 Autostraddle Writers Play a Non-Lethal Version of “Squid Game” — Kind Of
I confess I don’t actually know what Squid Game is despite the fact that Squid Game is EVERYWHERE right now. All I know is it’s bloody and that’s enough reason for me to stay away because I am a giant baby. However, my ignorance (innocence?) on the subject did not prevent me from asking our writers to participate in a Squid Game that I made up based on what I know about Squid Game from only Twitter with the promise that none of them would die from it. Here are your brave contestants! And YOU can be the judge about who wins!
Okay, let’s go! First question! Which of these is an actual squid?
Sally: I thought my squid recognition skills were good. But I am doubting myself a lot when confronted with this.
Shelli Nicole: Number 3! I only know cos of Disney. Zero thanks to the Detroit public school system.
Abeni: I think it’s the last one, 4. I think number 3 octopus and not a squid for some reason, Shelli — but why do I think this???
Kayla Kumari: 4!
Sally: I think it’s 3. I thought it was an octopus at first, but it doesn’t look like it has enough legs but also none of them look like they have pointy pope hat heads. Pointy pope hat heads I think are essential for squids.
Kayla Kumari: Dang I was so confident. And now I’m not sure!
Heather: Kayla and Abeni are right! It’s number four! Number three is an octopus!
Abeni: Got ’em!
Sally: Where are all of #3’s legs?!
Abeni: They’re hiding sally bc octopi are tricksy.
Sally: I think it’s just being really demure.
Shelli Nicole: Wow Shelli.
Kayla: I mostly know from having eaten a lot of squid.
Sally: I have eaten a lot of squid! But I think batter can hide a multitude of sins. And also the real body shape of a squid.
Okay next question! What would you do to this Squid Game track suit to flag your queerness and make other contestants not want to kill you?
Kayla: Well first of all I would turn the track pants into cutoff shorts and then add a striped knee high athletic sock.
Sally: I have to say, the colours remind me of the prisoners’ uniform in Wentworth, so probs you just need to add a white vest top to show off your hot arms, and a shiv.
Abeni: All I can think of is cutting the sleeves off the t-shirt.
Shelli: Now my dyke mind is telling me to say nothing because sweatpants are enough — I could roll them down and put my hair in a high bun and get my “hey mamas” on to save my life and flirt… The answer is officially a flannel in the same colors because I can wear it with nothing underneath and simply lay on my bunk bed like “hello fellow players.”
Heather: lmao at Shelli’s turning this into The Bachelorette.
Shelli: Finding love in a hopeless place.
Next question! Who is this? Wrong answers only.
Abeni: My first girlfriend. Same energy tbh.
Shelli: The cute cashier at Trader Joe’s after they’re done with their shift.
Sally: Is it Heather Hogan? I’ve heard she’s really tall…
Kayla: A baby dyke going to her first queer potluck. She made a cobbler.
This squid is new to app dating and needs some help composing their first message on Her. Please assist.
Sally: Do we know this squid’s sign?
Kayla: OK honestly I am distracted by how cool this squid looks. That’s a Leo imo.
Sally: I don’t know why I asked what sign considering I have no idea what any of them mean.
Abeni: Something about being flexible and tender and about going with the flow.
Heather: Going with the flow! ABENI!
Sally: Okay I’d focus on the tentacles tbh. Pretty good usp.
Abeni: I wanted to say something about like, being able to multi-task or juggle multiple things or something bc they have, like, multiple arms? But I couldn’t figure out an appropriate like, pun.
Sally: I don’t think you need a pun. You can leave it to the prospective date’s imagination.
Abeni: “Also, just wanna say … I have eight arms and can use them simultaneously. You do the math.”
Kayla: “I ink you’re pretty cute.”
Shelli: “Looking to join a couple because turns out that even though there are plenty of fish in the sea all of them are dishonest and kinda mean and I’m not really tryna put a bunch of new work in and I’m hella cute and not at all dramatic so let’s just see where it goes.”
Abeni: “Not just my ink is toxic.”
Shelli: ABENI. This all just makes me feel like their star sign is Libra. “I’m not toxic what you meannnnn” “Girl — you literally are, what are you talking about?”
Okay, you can choose one person who writes or edits or podcasts, etc. from Autostraddle to be your Squid Game ally. Who would you choose to give you the best chance at survival and why?
Kayla: I feel like I need a Capricorn’s attention to detail and determination to balance out my chaos so Drew.
Sally: I am trying to pick between Vanessa who surely has survival experience from attempting the Pacific Crest Trail, and Heather who can just shout men into submission. Can I get a flavour of what we might have to survive?
Abeni: I think you play like competitive children’s games like Red Light / Green Light? But if you lose you die.
Shelli: Not a Taurus (me) thinking far too hard about this.
Abeni: If i want to do a kind of affiliative/making alliances type strategy? Shelli, Heather, or Vanessa. If I want to do a force other folks into sexual submission? Shelli. If i want to go on all-out intimidation offensive? Probably Stef. If i want to try and construct like, survival implements or something? For some reason I’m thinking Ro. Might just be their vibe, no idea if that’s accurate lol.
If i want to think deeply about strategy and planning? Drew.
Shelli: Is anyone a Libra? Cos once we make it to the last game I have NO ISSUE taking out a Libra. And getting billions of won to do so.
Heather: I think Riese is. 😂
Shelli: Welp looks like I will have to choose Riese and then Carol and I will have a beautiful life together — which is honestly what I have always wanted.
Okay! Final question! what reality or game show do you actually think you’d have the best chance of winning? and why!
Sally: I think I’d have done alright in the first couple of seasons of Big Brother before everyone was just a wanker
Kayla: I think Chopped is literally the only one I have a shot at.
Abeni: Alone! I get to be alone for three months in the wilderness? no job, no distractions, no internet, no discourse, just me and nature? Paradise.
Shelli: THE CIRCLE. All I have to do to win the circle is lure folks in with my picture and then charm and sway them with my words? Baby that’s me all day on social media anyway — cut me my check and let’s be done.
NOW READERS — You choose! Who wins Squid Game?
“The Circle” Season 3: If Your Quarantine Life Was Suddenly a Game Show
Spoilers below for The Circle Season 3!
Hello, it is me, Heather Hogan the Autostraddle TV Team Editor, here to ask questions about Netflix’s reality game show social media experiment The Circle, which I have never seen, but which I have read a lot about because so many of our writers and readers love it so much. The debut season, which aired all the way back in January 2020, was referred to by our TV Team as “bisexual chaos” and “the best mess I have seen in a minute” and “intensely relatable.” Sadly, season two featured no queers. But now season three has arrived! And: queers! I’m going to be honest with you and say that I don’t actually have a handle on who is queer, and who is pretending to be a person who was pretending to be a different person when the show started, or who even on this show IS a person. I think that’s intentional? I saw someone on Twitter describe an interaction this season as “a gay man catfishing as a bisexual woman talking to a lesbian woman catfishing as a straight woman.” Which sounds also like a plot on Glee? ANYWAY, let us speak now to some experts.
Hello, and welcome back, Circleheads! Everyone please describe The Circle in one sentence.
Shelli: A show where you are encouraged to live alone and lie to win 100,000 very taxable dollars.
Drew: Big Brother by way of Instagram.
Natalie: It’s basically if your quarantine life was suddenly a game show.
Riese: Working from home with co-workers you’ve never met in real life, but with prizes.
Meg: Attempting to balance authentic community building with effortless lying, in the hopes of winning a life-changing amount of money.
KaeLyn: A remote office virtual retreat teambuilder gone terribly wrong.
Okay, so, are there actually queer women/non-binary humans on this season of The Circle for real? If so, can you please tell me what you think of them?
Shelli: Yes! There is Sophia who is queer, who is pretending to be her sister who is straight but apparently one hell of an ally. I fuck with Sophia, she’s cute and gay and wears matching PJ’s to bed so I’m into it. I like how she’s playing the game so far, she could be smarter with her catfish radar but I’m for the lesbian agenda so I hope she makes it far.
Drew: I don’t mind Sophia except that she’s on the wrong side of the alliance as far as I’m concerned. I hate Nick and am rooting for Kai and I just think it’s interesting that Sophia looked at the players in this game and decided Nick was her guy. I get it might be a product of being her sister and wanting to flirt, but The Circle is social media so I’m going to project some personal feelings onto it. Let’s just say it’s very revealing this cis white lesbian decided a cis straight white guy was her go-to.
Natalie: As Shelli and Drew mentioned, we’ve got Sophia and we have Ashley, being played by her gay best friend, Matthew, who was a lesbian, until Nick flirted with her, and then she became bisexual to help her advance in the game. [Editor’s note: WHAT?!] I thought it was cute when Sophia said that she had to be careful not to flirt with Ashley while playing the game. But, honestly, I’m not a fan of Sophia’s for exactly the reason that Drew’s hit on… there’s something unsettling about schisms that form in a group with all the white people on one side and all the people of color on the other… and no one seems bothered by it?
It’s been interesting to watch The Circle as I read about this season of Big Brother, wherein the people of color all got together and formed this airtight alliance (affectionately known as “the Cookout”) to ensure a Black winner… and it spurned cries of “reverse racism.” Meanwhile all the whites on The Circle align and we’re like, “oh, must be a day that ends in Y.”
Meg: I was really excited when Daniel, Sophia, and Matthew all seemed eager to own their queerness in the game — but as Drew and Natalie have already mentioned, I’ve also been super uncomfortable with the white queer folks seeming to team up against anyone of color. We’re seeing the dynamics that so often play out in real life manifest within this weird, insulated little microcosm on-screen, and while it’s uncomfortable, it does really demonstrate how easy it is for this to happen. But the fact that none of them are aware of it, or troubled by it, or call it out in any way? The fact that they consistently align themselves with straight white people, like Nick? I absolutely hate it.
KaeLyn: Not much to add to what folks said above. I really wanted to like Sophia when she first appeared, but her choices in allies are too predictably disappointing. Ok, but I do crack up when she flirts with Nick as a straight woman and is so incredibly uncomfortable and cringey and Nick just eats it up.
In that first season, all of y’all were in love with Sammie and Natalie was afraid she was a Miranda. Who are we identifying with / crushing on / hoping not to be this season?
Drew: I’m not crushing on anyone like I was Sammie in season one or DeLeesa in season two. But I’m rooting for Kai because I identify with how she’s playing the game. She’s genuine and thoughtful but she’s also a game player. It’s not the insidiousness of Nick but it’s still strategic and I like that.
Natalie: Yeah, I don’t really feel the connection to the contestants this season that I had to those in the first or even the second. Like Drew, I’m cheering for Kai but I think that’s more because I’ve grown to dislike Nick so much and she feels like his greatest adversary. The enemy of my enemy is my friend, you know?
As for the contestant that I’m hoping not to be? Daniel. Definitely Daniel. I’m trying to give the kid some grace because he’s only 20 but GOOD LORD… why does he feel like he needs to tell everyone he’s a virgin every five minutes?
Riese: Agree, I don’t have a favorite like I’ve had in previous seasons, but if I had to choose it would be Kai, and as Drew mentioned earlier in this roundtable, Sophia is cool and I wanna root for the lesbian but she’s very much on the wrong side of the alliance! I’d be down with Ruksana or James winning. I am perpetually frustrated by the success of “Jackson,” like get that girl off the show already and replace her with someone I like better!!! But Kai’s days feel very numbered.
Meg: I’m absolutely team Kai/Ruksana, but the fact that all the white queers are against them has me feeling like neither of them are going to make it to the end.
KaeLyn: No surprise here, I’m rooting for Kai or Ruksana, but I think Kai is just too damn good at the game and has a target on her back because of it. Ruksana is the so, so cool and sweet and I would love for her to win, but she doesn’t seem to be connecting as much with the other players so I feel like she’s going to be in the middle for a while, but will go quickly after Kai is eliminated. I would love to be very wrong about Kai!
How does this season compare to that first one, in terms of the structure of the show and your enjoyment of it? Cause on other shows, people get better at the games the more the seasons go on, right? Like if you make it on The Amazing Race at this point and are too scared of heights to complete a challenge, buddy! What are you doing! Is that the case here?
Drew: The first season was great just for the novelty of it and the second season was great because I felt so invested in DeLeesa. But what this season offers — in addition to some new twists — is it’s the most strategy that’s ever been deployed. I’d say I’m probably enjoying this season the least but maybe that’s just because some of the strategizers are really bad at it.
Natalie: The longer The Circle goes on, the more people believe that you can strategize your way through it, instead of building genuine connections with others. Part of strategizing means that you don’t even really care who’s a catfish and who isn’t (when, in the past, authenticity was really your cache on The Circle). So you’ll have Rachel/Jackson do something that brightly shines a light on them being a catfish…or Matthew/Ashley switch from lesbian to bisexual…and no one really cares? That’s taken some of the fun out of the game.
Riese: They do keep adding new twists, I think to prevent people from getting too strategic, but also sometimes everybody is so stupid I just want to scream! The Real vs. Fake Michelle thing was handled so profoundly incorrectly by every party involved, including Real Michelle visiting her imposters after getting booted instead of a player who could spread news of their mistake to the group, thus actually getting her imposters out of the game. This season has been interesting in its way, but the racial breakdown of the alliances is … unsettling? Nobody is really forming genuine connections with each other in the way I loved in previous seasons — Calvin and Kai were an interesting story but he was Gone Too Soon.
Meg: I don’t mind people being more openly strategic — it does feel like part of the game at this point. But my favorite piece of the show has become watching people that are playing themselves form genuine connections, both romantic and platonic, and twists like the Michelle clone or the endless obsession with rooting out catfish that take away from those authentic relationships are grating on me more than they have in past seasons.
KaeLyn: The new twists in the gameplay are a lot of fun and force some shake-up moments among the cast that are interesting! Everyone on this season thinks they’re master strategists, but few of them are actually good at it. I definitely think there’s a season three vibe — the newness has worn off and the people on the show are very clearly looking for the fifteen minutes of fame above all else. So far there are many alliances, but not many real connections. That said, I’m still having a lot of fun watching along!
Would you go on this show? And if so, what would be your strategy?
Shelli: Yes. Yes the hell I would. I would def be myself and my only strategy would be to make it up and meet folks as I go along. On the first few days tho I would try to at least have a private chat with everyone where I say something wild crazy because what won’t happen to me is what happened to Orange Michelle — I REFUSE to go out like that!
Natalie: Poor Orange Michelle. I’m still so mad about the cloning thing and Michelle’s premature elimination? I’d seen that as part of the British edition of The Circle but I was completely unprepared to see it happen to this genteel 52-year-old Southern woman. It was brutal. I definitely found myself yelling at my screen: hoping that she’d remember that early chat she’d had with Kai, Matthew/Ashley and Calvin that could help prove her identity.
Drew: I would LOVE to be on the show. And like Shelli my strategy would just be being myself. BUT that doesn’t mean there wouldn’t be some tact. I’d definitely be aware of numbers and other alliances as well as not making too many waves. I think my downfall would be that I’m not very good at bullshit and if someone I virtually met two days ago started calling me her big sister I’d be a little like… okay I don’t know about THAT.
Natalie: I absolutely would not go on this show… because while I think I’d excel at the mental aspect of the game — basically, figuring out who the catfish are and assessing all the alliances — I know I’d suck at the social aspects of the game.
KaeLyn: I don’t want the minor league level of celebrity that comes with being on reality shows in my life. Assuming that I could control for that, would I enjoy being on this kind of competition? TOTALLY. I’d go as myself and I’d try to make personal connections with everyone as soon as possible, but avoid forming strong alliances. My strategy would be to try to stay on good terms with everyone and ride it out in the middle for the first half of the competition, then come out as the dark horse once some of the more aggressive players eliminate each other.
Here’s a question: do you think you could pull off a catfish? And, if so, who would you go in as? One of the most interesting facets of the show, for me at least, is seeing how people reconcile their choice of catfish profile. Last season, you had DeLeesa as Trevor… a single father… because she thought that the profile would appeal more to folks and because women are unfairly criticized on social media. This season you’ve got Matthew coming in as Ashley (first as a lesbian, then as a bisexual) and Sophia playing as her older sister… to capture the attention of the male contestants.
Drew: I think it would make for interesting television to play exactly as myself BUT be a cis woman. I hope my conclusion would be similar to Sean’s in season one though and I’d be like “Being yourself is better!” That said I would not reveal it midway like she did because I’m way too competitive to ruin my game like that. lol
Meg: No fucking way.
Riese: I would not because I hate being on camera and have a pretty thin skin for being analyzed by The Entire Internet. But if I HAD to I wouldn’t be myself because I’m not very likable. I would definitely catfish as Heather Hogan and I would win because I would be so nervous about living up to her image that I’d do a great job. Actually no I wouldn’t win, I’d amass enough goodwill to enable somebody else to win who deserves it more than me, just like HH would do!! [Editor’s note:😂]
KaeLyn: It would be more strategic to go as a catfish than as myself, as a fat queer Asian woman. I definitely would be cast as the funny fattie, but I don’t think I couldn’t handle a catfish. I’d rather try to win people over with my “genuine” self, but I also think that’s what would get me voted off sooner rather than later. I love the idea of being a catfish! I think I’d be like a stereotypical cute Korean girl with long hair and a strong selfie game, but I’d still be bisexual so I could flirt with anyone.
Where does this season of The Circle rank among other queer reality TV?
Shelli: Right now it’s basically at the top because there isn’t anything else that’s reality and featuring hella lesbians. I’m also invested because there is a chance that even more queer babes will make an appearance ‘cos of how the show works! It would be great if a Black queer babe comes on and is a horrible person because that is the type of chaos I would like to see.
Drew: Because Sophia isn’t playing herself and Ashley pivoted to strategic bisexuality, this season hasn’t really had any girl on girl flirting. There were straight girls in past seasons who flirted more with each other than anyone this year. Which is a real bummer! Are You the One S8 remains the very best and we deserve so much more like it.
Natalie: I stand firm in my belief that the Circle Brazil is still the best, most gayest, season… and I’m just going to keep saying that until everyone watches and begrudgingly admits that I was right all along.
Riese: Well it’s definitely better than The Real L Word.
KaeLyn: Drew, I was also thinking that I’d love a chaotic all-queer season like Are You the One Season 8! I really want some queer flirting, really. I don’t think this season feels particularly queer, even though there are three out queer people on it so far. I just want girls flirting with girls on my reality shows and there really isn’t enough of it on season three so far.
Anything else you want to talk about?
Shelli: Yeah — Fuck Nick and I Hope Kai and Calvin make a circle baby.
Drew: Shelli, you read my mind.
Natalie: So, yes, definitely… fuck Nick forever and always…but a Circle Baby from Kai and Calvin? Nope, nope, nope, nope, nope.
I mean, from where I’m sitting Calvin’s decision to give Nick the Secret Advantage just cost Kai a hundred thousand dollars. He was so enamored with her that he had to go see her after he was eliminated but he didn’t like her enough to give her an advantage in the game? He had to give it to his bro? What kind of fuckboy shit is that? Nick having that burner account gave him the opportunity to turn more of the other contestants against Kai and to get himself a spot as an influencer. Now, he’s in the hangout with Daniel — bless his heart, that boy ain’t even playing the game — and gets to eliminate one player on his own. Best case for Kai? She loses her BFF in the Circle, Ruksana. The worst case? She’s out because her Circle bae couldn’t be bothered to give her an assist in the game.
Nah, fuck that dude too. If I was Kai, I wouldn’t want Calvin anywhere around me until he ran me my check.
Meg: Natalie, I totally agree with you! I was shipping Calvin and Kai so damn hard, and was so bummed when he got blocked. Their meeting IRL was adorable, and I loved watching them realize that the bond they’d formed was real. And then he gave NICK the advantage and totally lost me. Why the hell would he do that? Was he seriously concerned that the attractive cis straight white guy needed help, after he KNEW that everyone was trying to come for his girl? I don’t get it, and Kai deserves better. I hope she wins in spite of that shit, starts hanging out with DeLeesa, and lives happily ever after.
Riese: Yeah as a rule if everybody just went into the game understanding that they should never help a white cis straight man, ever, I think we’d all be better for it. That probably goes for a lot of things.
KaeLyn: There are times that I’m rooting for people and I’m still feeling that way about Kai and Ruksana. But I have a hunch that by the end of this season, I’m going to rooting against people, as in, rooting for Anyone But Nick. Much like my vote in most major elections, I feel like this is going to come down to who sucks less.
https://youtu.be/DYhLO3uXYtY
Dua Saleh on “Sex Education,” Cal’s Sexuality, and the Trans Language Barrier
Even as the industry begins to tell more authentic trans stories, there are still a lot of unique challenges presented to trans actors. And while it’s important we talk about those challenges and continue to push for more equity, a big part of that discussion is highlighting when a show does things (mostly) right.
That’s why I was so excited to talk to Dua Saleh: musician, poet, and the latest addition to Netflix’s Sex Education where they portray non-binary stoner Cal. Cal was my favorite part of the new season and I was surprised by the depth brought to them and their transness — especially from a show made by cis people.
I talked to Dua about the process of creating an authentic trans story, their personal sex education, and what they watch when they need a break from the world.
This interview has been edited for length and clarity.
Drew Gregory: We’re at a really interesting moment in trans storytelling where we’re finally starting to be included but often not with a lot of depth. But I didn’t feel that way about this season of Sex Education. So I just want to walk through what the experience was like for you to get a window into what it looks like when it’s done right. Can you start by talking about how you got cast?
Dua Saleh: It was really random because I wasn’t doing acting at the time. I was working on some music stuff and they reached out to my manager and asked me to audition. They liked my self-tape and then they actually got an acting coach to help guide me through the next two auditions. First I auditioned alone and then they had me with Kedar (Williams-Stirling) who plays Jackson and the producers and directors were there.
And then when I got cast they were like oh you’re trans can you help us with this. The writing team had a nonbinary consultant but they wanted me to be comfortable so they asked me questions. How do you feel about this? Do you have any issues? Any questions? That helped a lot with the script. And they also had a nonbinary consultant on set especially when me and Robyn (Holdaway) who plays Layla were there. They especially helped with the binding scenes. And there was an intimacy coordinator who was also very helpful. He was there for the whole cast but he was very attentive to my needs specifically because of all my trans shit and dysphoria and all the different things that I was feeling. Especially leaving a trans and queer-oriented city like Minneapolis to a place like Wales. You can definitely find trans people there — trans people were even reaching out to me from Wales thanking me for being on the show — but I didn’t really see them because I was on set and they were intense about the Covid protocol.
Drew: When you were on set did you feel the crew and the rest of the cast had an understanding of nonbinary identities and transness or did you have to do a lot of educating?
Dua: The producers were really good with informing people about my pronouns. Right before I got on set for each scene they would remind people of my pronouns. And they would have closed sets for me because I was kind of uncomfortable during some of the intimacy scenes and the intimacy coordinator would always check in with me. I had a pretty good experience as a trans actor which I know doesn’t happen very often. It feels really good and kind of dreamlike that this was my debut role. I didn’t have high expectations for it because I know how institutional transphobia occurs in different spaces. Especially having experienced it in the music realm, I wasn’t expecting people to get my pronouns correctly. And people were not that good when I’ve been in the UK for music stuff. But it was much better in Wales and much better with the cast members. Some people had interacted with nonbinary people before especially the queer cast members. And the people who hadn’t were active in trying to challenge themselves and challenge heteropatriarchy and how transphobia occurs within themselves and the world. They were thoughtful of me and very kind to me. I felt affirmed throughout the experience.
Drew: That’s great. When you were asked about the script did you give a lot of feedback?
Dua: Yeah there was definitely some. I feel like they did pretty well for a show that hadn’t touched upon transness before — especially with the nonbinary consultants and with the questions they asked me prior to going in. But when they invited me to talk with them I called them in and was like trans characters and especially nonbinary characters don’t often have much depth to their transness. And Cal is in the main cast — they’re a prominent character — so there was a real opportunity. I pushed discussions on queerness, specifically Cal’s queer identity. There are many different ways nonbinary people can identify and align themselves in terms of romantic and sexual orientation and I thought it would be cool — especially with the show having so many viewers — for them to touch upon that.
Drew: I’m really interested in this dynamic that I think is pretty much always the case for trans actors at this point — unless the directors or writers are trans — where trans actors are also working as consultants. And I don’t think it’s inherently negative — in fact it’s good to ask people who have an experience and are portraying an experience what they feel comfortable with — but it is also additional work that’s being put on trans actors that isn’t being put on cis actors. At least from a place of transness — I think all actors with marginalized identities who are working with people who don’t have those identities end up in that position.
I loved the dynamic between Cal and Jackson. The conversations around this being a queer relationship and Cal checking on Jackson’s comfort with that — that’s the kind of thing where I was like oh wow I haven’t seen that on-screen before. So whatever part you had to play in that thank you. I’m very grateful for it and I’m glad that they listened to you. Because that’s another thing — even though cis people ask trans actors to give feedback they don’t always listen.
Dua: No, I definitely felt held. And I don’t know if it was specifically me. I’m not going to take credit, because I don’t know what happened in the writers room or what the nonbinary consultants said. But it was something I cared a lot about. Cal’s sexuality was kind of nebulous before and it’s really cool to see how it developed.
Drew: Something else I love about Cal is they’re not sensitive — the people around them are sensitive. There’s this narrative that trans people are oversensitive and look some of us are — we’re people and some of us are more sensitive than others — but so often it’s the cis people around us who are being sensitive to us just asking for basic respect.
Dua: It’s absolutely necessary to portray. And these are conversations trans people have so often with their cis partners especially if they aren’t as familiar with queerness. There’s a language barrier — trans language, queer language. Having that disconnect be bridged, having authenticity and honesty set first — it’s an act of care for Cal and Jackson so they aren’t inauthentically living or inauthentically engaging with one another. And it adds more dimension to their romantic interest in one another.
Drew: Yeah for sure. Speaking of that trans and queer language, what sources of sex education did you have as a teenager? Where did you learn about queer sexuality and trans sexuality?
Dua: Honestly, Tumblr. And I was in high school policy debate and we were doing a lot of queer theory and reading from Black feminist theorists. The way they address gender caused me to reflect on my own gender. So I was doing a lot of work on my own because the sex education they provided in the American system, at least in the school I went to, was not cool for me. It was cissexist and ableist in how it engaged with bodies and it was obviously misogynistic. And there was transphobia just in being omitted and that erasure. I was in GSA so I was working with other LGBTQIA+ students and we actually did a lot of the education. That’s how I had to learn about sex and about consent and about different ways to understand sex and sex adjacent stuff. It’s really disappointing.
Drew: Yeah I also got to enjoy the American sex education system. That’s something about the show that’s so exciting to me. I think about teenagers watching it and it lives up to its title — it’s better sex education than anything I was being taught in school.
Dua: Facts. Big facts. There’s not a lie that was just told.
Drew: (laughs) So at the start of the season, Cal prefers to have fun than to confront the oppression they’re facing. I know you were outspoken from a young age and I’m wondering where that came from for you and how you find a balance between speaking up for yourself and your communities and finding those escapes.
Dua: I think a balance is necessary. As I’m thrust into the mainstream I’m more hesitant to even be online for stuff unless I’m promoting something. But also online spaces provide me access to learn what’s happening like Black Lives Matter protesters being arrested at the Met Gala. Those are things that are embedded into the essence of my community because of all the organizing stuff I did when I was younger. And I still frequent organizing spaces even though I’m not actively doing it anymore because I don’t have as much time. And sometimes those spaces are also toxic which I feel like people don’t talk about. But finding a balance is essential. Finding time for myself and checking out from the world. Watching stuff like She-Ra or Jujitsui Kaisen. Or trying to get myself to read even though my brain is not there right now — I have a small zimbo galaxy brain thing where I don’t want to read.
Drew: (laughs) As I said, I think this season has some of the best trans storytelling I’ve ever seen. Are there other shows or movies that you’ve connected with in that way? Or that you felt your story was being told in some way?
Dua: Honestly, I feel like animation has provided me access to space like that. She-Ra had a nonbinary person, Double Trouble — they were an alien and the show didn’t go in depth about their identity but that was still cool.
Drew: There is something to be said about an animation space or a fantasy space where — even if it’s not getting into the day to day realities of being trans — they can get at a deeper truth. Though obviously it’s exciting when there’s both.
How different is it expressing yourself through music where the narratives are coming from you versus when you’re acting in a project written by other people?
Dua: It’s just a matter of being able to dig into the mind of another person versus relaying the things that I’m experiencing. There’s a lot of internal work that I do with the music that I create. I have a song called “fitt” that’s coming out on September 24th that’s an Afrobeat song with hyperpop elements where I talk about queerness and transness and ballroom and mysticism. And that’s directly from my core. That’s who I am as a person and I’m reflecting that out.
Whereas the challenge with Cal is they’re very different from me. It made me reflect on the experiences that other trans people have in their relationships with cisness and with battling institutional violence. Cal is a skater and a stoner. They’re very woah I’m not really trying to fuck with all this, fuck y’all, fuck the establishment but I’m not engaging. Versus me when I was a youth I was quoting books and being directly at actions and talking Indigenous trans theory and gender and stuff like that.
We’re very different so it allowed me access to a different artistic space in my mind. I’m not Cal. I would not have made the choices Cal makes. For example, I would not have been with a cis boy.
Sex Education season three is now streaming on Netflix. Dua’s new EP CROSSOVER is out on October 22.
Presenting the Winners of the Fourth Annual Autostraddle Queer TV Awards!
Last night, when the Autostraddle TV Team was scrambling to finish all of our various writing for this year’s awards before the deadline, Drew Gregory said, “I love the Gay Emmys and am so glad we’re still doing them!!”
And the fact that we’re still able to pull off this titanic ship four years in, two years into a pandemic, is no small feat. Carmen organized the voting and these posts, Heather Hogan made the graphics, Natalie helped with formatting, if you follow us on Twitter than you’ve seen what Valerie’s done to promote our annual virtual awards show this week (and if you know social media, then you know it’s art). When we had a tie in one of the categories — an actual tie, even after THREE rounds of voting — Kayla and Drew both stepped up to write extra on top of their duties. And then there was all of you, 14 thousand of you who voted in under 48 hours! We love queer television because television brings us together, and nothing better defines that spirit than this little homegrown awards contest.
The Autostraddle Gay Emmys began with a relatively simple goal: To honor the very best in lesbian, bisexual, queer, and trans television. To celebrate the stories and talents and creators that the mainstream Television Academy still misses year after year. We wanted to help change the conversation, and highlight who’s pushing the boundary and what’s moved us most. So we spent weeks together pouring over what mattered to us, reliving this past year, and voting for what we believed in. Then, when we were down to our top six nominees in each category, we opened up the field to you. We believe that television only works if it’s connecting to its audience, and so we wanted to make sure that our audience had their say. For regular categories, the individual TV Team votes were weighted heavily alongside our reader votes. For fan favorite categories, the winner was 100% determined by reader votes.
And without any further ado, here are the winners of Autostraddle’s Fourth Annual Gay Emmys!
PS: Goodbye Pose! We’re going to miss you. Thank you.
Outstanding Comedy Series
A Black Lady Sketch Show
Runner-Up: Dickinson
Other Nominees: Teenage Bounty Hunters (Netflix) // Girls5Eva (Peacock) // Master of None Presents: Moments in Love (Netflix) // Hacks (HBO Max)
Back in 2010, Edie Falco stepped onto the Emmy stage, exasperated. She collected her trophy — her first for Outstanding Lead Actress in a Comedy Series, her fourth overall — and confessed, “Oh, this is just the most ridiculous thing that has ever happened… I’m not funny!” It was the culmination of a changing comedy landscape: one where writers weaved dramatic elements into comedic narratives and, later, where the Emmys mandated that all 30 minute shows were comedies, irrespective of content. But over the last few years — and, particularly, throughout this pandemic — it feels like audiences are looking for content that skews towards the more traditional role of a comedy. Simply put, we want to laugh…and few shows make us laugh more than A Black Lady Sketch Show.
In its second season, ABLSS revisited some of its classic characters — Dr. Haddassah (pre-PhD), Trinity, the Invisible Spy and the Coral Reefs Gang — while also crafting an expansive playground for its main cast. My personal favorites? The Post-Date Presser and The Last Supp-her. Just try to keep yourself from laughing. — Natalie
Outstanding Drama Series
Veneno
Runner-Up: The Wilds (Amazon Prime)
Other Nominees: Killing Eve (BBC America) // P-Valley (Starz) // The Handmaid’s Tale (Hulu) // Pose (F/X)
The Gay Emmys exist to celebrate shows that the Straight Emmys have wrongly ignored. But with Veneno, it’s not the Emmys — international shows aren’t eligible — but Hollywood we’re correcting. Yes, the last half a decade has brought a wave of progress within the mainstream. It’s exciting and should be celebrated. But there’s still nothing like Veneno. Hollywood is, once again, behind.
What makes Veneno so special isn’t just its representation — more on that later — it’s the show’s quality. This is arthouse television. The technical achievements of Javier Calvo and Javier Ambrossi and their team are remarkable. The writing is naturalistic and fantastic all at once. And the actors within don’t just do this work justice — they elevate it. The three women who play Veneno, Paca la Piranha as herself, and Lola Rodríguez who plays Valeria are the heart of a show with so much of it.
Veneno is a masterful work of art. It means as much to me as an artist and a viewer as it means to me as a trans woman. And it means a lot to me as a trans woman. It’s the best drama of last year — according to the team and all of you — and one of the best shows of all time — according to me. — Drew
Outstanding Sci-Fi/Fantasy Series
Batwoman
Runners-Up, Tied: Wynonna Earp (SyFy) // Star Trek: Discovery (Paramount+)
Other Nominees: The Haunting of Bly Manor (Netflix) // Legends of Tomorrow (CW) // Supergirl (CW)
There’s no way season two of Batwoman should have worked. It definitely shouldn’t have been significantly better than the first season. Batwoman’s origin story is more well known than any woman superhero at this point, in large part because it has been so groundbreaking and therefore widely publicized (or derided, depending on where you hang out on the internet). The loss of Ruby Rose, the show’s biggest name, was also the loss of Kate Kane, the only Batwoman we’ve known since she burst out of the closet in 2006. But Batwoman‘s writers took an enormous chance that paid off in shockingly delightful ways. They created a new Batwoman, a Black Batwoman, and they cast a Black bisexual actress to pay her. Season two didn’t get everything right — it’s never going to stop being traumatizing to see violence against Black bodies, Kate Kane being alive does undermine the character of Ryan Wilder — but the writers room brought in queer Black writers and they worked dang hard to tell a variety of queer Black stories. Even Sophie had to reckon with her place in the police state!
In addition to retelling an origin story, Batwoman found a way to organically, effortlessly introduce Ryan into everyone else’s lives in ways that made the show so much more compelling. And then, of course, there’s Javicia Leslie, whose charm and on-screen chemistry with basically everyone made Ryan’s relationships with every single character more fun, more fraught, with more potential for different pairings to find there way to each other and just see what happened. (Sophie and Alice? That shouldn’t work! But it does!) Plus Batwoman introduced even more LGBTQs into the mix, with recurring love interests and even villains. Javicia Leslie IS Ryan Wilder and Ryan Wilder IS Batwoman, and it has been a revolution and a joy to watch her own the cape and cowl. — Heather
Outstanding Lead Actor Playing an LGBTQ+ Character in a Drama Series
Mj Rodriguez as Blanca Evangelista, Pose
Runner-Up: Zendaya as Rue Bennett, Euphoria (HBO)
Other Nominees: Hunter Schafer as Jules Vaughn, Euphoria (HBO) // Danielle Savre as Maya Bishop, Station 19 (ABC) // Sarah Paulson as Nurse Ratched, Ratched (Netflix) // Nicco Annan as Uncle Clifford, P-Valley (Netflix)
In every season of Pose, Mj Rodriguez has given a stellar, layered performance, harnessing humor, drama, pathos, and spectacle all at once—sometimes just in one scene alone. The final season of Pose leans all the way into her strengths, honoring Blanca as the emotional core of the series. She shines on her own, obviously, but she’s so fun to watch in scenes with Billy Porter; the two are impeccable scene partners. Rodriguez knows how to deliver a damn good monologue, and she knows how to make us cry. But she also brings a warmth and coziness to the show. I can’t wait to see what she does next. — Kayla
Outstanding Supporting or Guest Actor Playing an LGBTQ+ Character in a Drama Series
Dominique Jackson as Elektra Abundance Evangelista Wintour, Pose
Runner-Up: Daniela Santiago as Veneno, Veneno (HBO Max)
Other Nominees: Cynthia Nixon as Gwendolyn Briggs, Ratched (Netflix) // Angourie Rice as Siobhan, Mare of Easttown (HBO) // Stefania Spampinato as Carina DeLuca, Station 19 (ABC) // Samira Wiley as Moira, The Handmaid’s Tale (Hulu)
There’s a scene, in the third season of Pose, where Elektra Abundance Evangelista is forced to confront the bigotry of the manager of a bridal boutique who refuses to serve them. She tries to reason with him, at first — appealing to him, from one businessperson to another — but when he refuses to relent, she unleashes a torrent of abuse on his head. Elektra’s always been quick and cutting with a quip but this is pure savagery. She reads him for absolute filth. And while there’s joy in watching Elektra verbally dismantle someone, it shouldn’t eclipse her character: Elektra has always been about more than a rhetorical jab and in Pose’s final season we get the full breadth of her character.
It’s “The Trunk,” the third episode, that gives us the greatest insight into how Elektra Abundance Evangelista came to be. The episode shows us Elektra at her highest and lowest… and requires a tour de force performance by Dominique Jackson to bring it all to life. — Natalie
Outstanding Lead Actor Playing an LGBTQ+ Character in a Comedy Series
Hailee Steinfeld as Emily Dickinson, Dickinson
Runner-Up: Chase Sui Wonders as Riley Luo, Genera+ion (HBO Max)
Other Nominees: Naomi Ackie as Alicia, Master of None Presents: Moments in Love (Netflix) // Hannah Einbinder as Ava Daniels, Hacks (HBO Max) // Paula Pell as Gloria, Girls 5Eva (Peacock) // Haley Sanchez as Greta Moreno, Genera+ion (HBO Max)
As silly as it may sound, this wacky, comedic retelling of Emily Dickinson’s life is one of the places I’ve felt most represented in all my years of watching queer TV. Emily’s internal monologue being dramatic and her external energy being chaotic feels so familiar to me, and Hailee Steinfeld brings every layer of this wild-hearted teenager to life with exquisite talent. The first season was a whirlwind of getting to know Emily but the second was a slow journey of Emily getting to know Emily, and it was beautiful to behold. Hailee is able to dig deep and express Emily’s wells of sadness as easily as she opens up to show off her flights of fancy or locks in to display her passion and love for her muse, her Sue. For a long time I thought of Hailee Steinfeld as “that girl from Pitch Perfect 3” but she was handed the reins to this show and has been deftly steering it since day one and has proven that she is so much more than anyone bargained for, in the best way possible. — Valerie
Outstanding Supporting or Guest Actor Playing an LGBTQ+ Character in a Comedy Series
Ella Hunt as Susan Gilbert, Dickinson
Runner-Up: Sasheer Zamata as Denise, Home Economics (ABC)
Other Nominees: Lolly Adefope as Fran, Shrill (Hulu) // Cole Escola as Chip Wreck, Search Party (HBO Max) // Patti Harrison as Ruthie, Shrill (Hulu) // Nava Mau as Ana, Genera+ion (HBO Max)
Dickinson suffered no sophomore slump; in fact, season two arguably bests the first season of the funny, strange, gorgeously shot show. And one of the highlights of that great second season is easily the new layers we get of Sue. Ella Hunt brings depth to the character, playing the comedic and dramatic sides of the show with equal heft. In season two, we get the Sue Emily loves but also a complicated, flaw-stricken Sue. That final steamy scene has stayed with me. Equal parts messy and intimate, it’s one of my favorite sex scenes to air in recent years, and a big part of that is the performances from both leads, who fittingly have won in tandem in their respective categories. Hunt and Steinfeld’s chemistry oozes in every frame. — Kayla
Outstanding Lead Actor Playing an LGBTQ+ Character in a Sci-Fi Series
Javicia Leslie as Ryan Wilder, Batwoman
Runner-Up: Victoria Pedretti as Dani Clayton, The Haunting of Bly Manor (Netflix)
Other Nominees: Kat Barrell as Nicole Haught, Wynonna Earp (SyFy) // Chyler Leigh as Alex Danvers, Supergirl (CW) // Dom Provost-Chalkley as Waverly Earp, Wynonna Earp (SyFy) // Nafessa Williams as Anissa Pierce, Black Lightning (CW)
It’s hard to imagine an actor this year who had more stacked in front of her than Javicia Leslie. Batwoman is already an iconic lesbian character in comics lore. Her original iteration, Kate Kane, was brought to television by a queer actor who is already iconic their own right — Ruby Rose. When Ruby left the role, Javicia stepped into an entirely new caped crusader, Ryan Wilder, and a fandom that was already on edge. She was going to become the first Black Batwoman, at a time of historic racial protest and an ongoing fight for humanity of Black lives. Oh, and she had to do it all during a once-in-a-century pandemic. HA! No big deal.
I list out all these challenges because you deserve to know what Javicia was up against — but also because Javicia has made it all look so good, that it’s easy to forget. With every charming, cocky smile. With every snark. With every twinkle in her eye, it’s impossible not to fall in love with Ryan Wilder. Javicia not only has stepped into the responsibility of the moment, but she hasn’t forgotten that comic book stories should be fun. They can be dark (and both metaphorically and literally, Gotham is dark), but never without joy. A superhero should have chemistry. They should be a star.
And you can’t possibly find a bigger star than what Javicia Leslie has already lifted on her mighty shoulders. — Carmen
Outstanding Supporting or Guest Actor Playing an LGBTQ+ Character in a Sci-Fi Series
Meagan Tandy as Sophie Moore, Batwoman
Runner-Up: Chantal Thuy as Grace Choi, Black Lightning (CW)
Other Nominees: Blu del Barrio as Adira Tal, Star Trek: Discovery (Paramount+) // Nicole Maines as Nia Nal, Supergirl (CW) // Azie Tesfai as Kelly Olsen, Supergirl (CW) // Lachlan Watson as Theo Putnam, Chilling Adventures of Sabrina (Netflix)
When we were deciding who got to write about which show, I saw that Outstanding Sci-Fi/Fantasy Series and Outstanding Lead Actor in a Sci-Fi/Fantasy series were taken and for a second I was bummed I wouldn’t get to write about Batwoman… then I kept scrolling and saw the well-deserved SWEEP and so I’m thrilled to be here to talk to you about Meagan Tandy. Over these first two seasons of Batwoman, we’ve watched Sophie Moore grow, but in this second season especially, I feel like I’ve watched both Sophie and Meagan absolutely BLOOM. From the way her acting feels brighter to the way she is talking about the show on Twitter, I think having Javicia at the helm has suited her as well as it has suited the show as a whole (which is very well, as you know.) Sophie went from being a closeted crow to being a vigilante with two ex-girlfriends who may or may not be evil now, plus a flirtationship with Batwoman herself. She got tougher and softer all at once, and also her outfits and overall looks set the Autostraddle TV Team slack channel on fire week after week.— Valerie
Outstanding Performance by a Straight Actress in a Straight Role
Michaela Coel as Arabella, I May Destroy You
Runner-Up: Renee Elise Goldsberry as Wickie Roy in Girls 5Eva (Peacock)
Other Nominees:Brandee Evans as Mercedes, P-Valley (Starz) // Kathryn Hahn, WandaVision (Disney+) // Punam Patel as Kim Laghari in Special (Netflix) // Hannah Waddingham as Rebecca, Ted Lasso (Apple TV+)
For so much of the last year, the urge has been to escape… for television to give its audience some refuge from the storm that ravages outside… but I May Destroy You is not that. Rather than offering a port in the storm, it takes us inside it. Not literally, of course — I May Destroy You grapples with sexual assault, boundaries and consent, not the pandemic — but the show captures the last year on a micro level: social media, the fleeting nature of memory, trauma and our capacity to find joy and laughter in the midst of it all. The show is a call for introspection, no matter what we’ve been through.
It is hard to say which of Michaela Coel’s roles in I May Destroy You contribute most to its success — she is, after all, the show’s star, writer, director and producer (and has earned Emmy nominations for each) — but it is her turn as Arabella that cuts most deeply. It’s hard to explain what it feels like to be a survivor… to go on living in the aftermath of an assault… but as Arabella, Coel makes survivors feel seen in a profound way. — Natalie
Outstanding Cis Male Character
Jason Sudeikis as Ted Lasso, Ted Lasso
Runner-Up: Billy Porter as Pray Tell, Pose (F/X)
Other Nominees: Angel Bismark Curiel as Esteban “Lil Papi” Evangelista, Pose (F/X) // Brett Goldstein as Roy Kent, Ted Lasso (Apple TV+) // Toheeb Jimoh as Sam Obisanya, Ted Lasso (Apple TV+) // Justice Smith as Chester Morris, Genera+ion (HBO Max)
Everyone I know — including me — watched Ted Lasso begrudgingly. I can’t think of a harder sell in 2021 than: a cis white guy gets a job he’s unqualified for and becomes celebrated against all odds. Yet, somehow, Jason Sudeikis makes a small-time football coach from Kansas who moves to London to coach European football not just palatable, not just likable, but actually lovable. Ted Lasso is the guy who brings cookies to work every morning, who makes endless dad jokes, who curses like “heck” and “shoot,” and says bonkers motivational quotes like “I believe in ghosts, but more importantly, I believe they need to believe in themselves.” He’s a walking, talking human embodiment of a JUST HANG IN THERE poster with a cat on a tree limb. And it works. His earnestness, his genuine kindness, his willingness to admit what he doesn’t know and when he messes up, his genuine belief in the ability of the people around him — it all starts to rub off on his team, his team’s fans, and even the owner who hired him to fail. Ted Lasso — the character and the show — is good and wholesome and nurturing and kind. And in a world that feels less and less like those things every day, he is a welcome relief. — Heather
Santana Lopez Legacy Award For Outstanding Queer Teen Character
Hunter Schafer as Jules Vaughn, Euphoria
Runner-Up: Eris Baker as Tess Pearson, This Is Us (NBC)
Other Nominees: Bre-z as Tamia “Coop” Cooper, All American (CW) // Haley Sanchez as Greta Moreno, Genera+ion (HBO Max) // Chase Sui Wonders as Riley Luo, Genera+ion (HBO Max) // Zendaya as Rue Bennett, Euphoria (HBO)
Euphoria is less a TV show than it is a cultural moment. Its cast of hot, stylish, and largely queer Gen Z-ers are taking over magazines and red carpets and the thoughts of so many. (Me.) And while Zendaya may be the show’s most famous star and Sydney Sweeney next behind, it’s Hunter Schafer and her character Jules who embody the Euphoria spirit.
During its first season, I joked that Jules was a Manic Pixie Trans Girl. But that’s not inherently negative. There’s a magic to a character placed on our protagonist’s pedestal. Jules is magic. She’s charming and chaotic and impossible to contain. Schafer shows her to be tender and harsh, grounded and ethereal. The tension between who she is and how she’s perceived crackles in every moment.
This year’s special episodes showed these two sides of Jules. In the Rue episode, she is literally a fantasy. But in her own episode, we get to see more of who she really is. Schafer herself got a writing credit on this episode and the more she becomes Schafer’s creation, the more she becomes her own. She’s a face of a generation. She’s a trans teen just trying to survive. — Drew
Best Episode with LGBTQ+ Themes
“CLICK WHIRR,” Genera+ion
“Chapter 4” , Master of None Presents: Moments in Love
Other Nominees: Euphoria: “Fuck Anyone Who’s Not a Sea Blob” (HBO) // Girls5Eva: “Cease and Desist” (Peacock) // Harley Quinn: “Something Borrowed, Something Green” (DC/HBO Max) // Pose, “The Trunk” (F/X)
This is a bittersweet win after this week’s cancellation. Genera+ion really found its voice in its backhalf of episodes and it could have done so much more. The show thrived when it showcased its entire ensemble, but it also thrived when honoring one character’s minute experiences. This episode, focused entirely on Chase Sui Wonders’ Riley, was the show at its riskiest and most transcendent. “CLICK WHIRR” is marked by hours Riley has been awake since failing to sleep the night before. As the day continues, Riley’s descent continues. Her behavior becomes more erratic and the show mirrors this disorientation in its sound design and visual landscape.
I know I’m prone to hyperbole, but this episode is the closest I’ve ever seen to my teen years on screen. Not in the specific circumstances — that honor goes to Sex Education or Perks of Being a Wallflower — but in the emotion. That feeling of being trapped, that lack of awareness of the world beyond, that confused anger, that depth of loneliness.
We may not be getting any more Genera+ion, but follow Chase Sui Wonders and director Anu Valia wherever they go next. It’s sure to be special. — Drew
Master of None: Moments In Love had an uneven run, but its finest episode is hands down “Chapter 4,” which tells the story of Alicia’s rollercoaster of a pregnancy journey. Heartfelt and heartbreaking, it’s a tremendous, self-contained narrative that shows how difficult a queer path to pregnancy can be (on systemic and personal levels). Naomi Ackie deserves all the accolades for her performance, which is nuanced and potent throughout, the full weight of Alicia’s frustration, despair, and determination effectively portrayed. I hope we start to see more queer pregnancy/parenting stories on television. This one is unforgettable. — Kayla
Outstanding Performance by an Out LGBTQ+ Actor in a Comedy
Paula Pell as Gloria, Girls 5Eva
Runners-Up, Tied: Cole Escola as Chip Wreck, Search Party (HBO Max) // Humberly González as Sophie Sanchez, Ginny & Georgia (Netflix)
Other Nominees: Hannah Einbinder as Ava Daniels, Hacks (HBO) // Kate McKinnon, Saturday Night Live (NBC) // Wanda Sykes as Lucretia Turner, The Upshaws (Netflix)
Paula Pell is the least famous member of Girls5eva, the show and the seemingly cursed girl group. Maybe you saw her act in Amy Poehler’s lukewarmly liked Wine Country, but probably if you know her at all you know her from her work as a longtime writer on Saturday Night Live during the Pohler/Tina Fey era. But oh she shines as divorced, dejected lesbian Gloria McManus in Peacock’s freshman comedy. Pell plays Gloria with just the right mix of ridiculousness (“I power walk to ‘WAP!'”) and vulnerability. She’s thrilled in a super-charged way to be back on stage with her bandmates, especially since she can now be out, which wasn’t the case 20 years ago. But dang, she’s also just really sad! She’s also self-aware enough to be at least slightly embarrassed about working with the parasites in the music industry as Girls5eva make their way back into the spotlight. It’s not easy to hold your own on camera with Renée Elise Goldsberry, but Pell’s Gloria is as memorable as she is lovable.
It looks like she really is gonna be famous 5eva, cuz 4ever’s too short. — Heather
Outstanding Performance by an LGBTQ+ Actor in a Drama
Mj Rodriguez as Blanca Evangelista, Pose
Runner-Up: Lola Rodriguez as Valeria Vegas, Veneno (HBO Max)
Other Nominees: Gillian Anderson as Margaret Thatcher, The Crown (Netflix) // Emma Corrin as Princess Diana, The Crown (Netflix) // Dominique Jackson as Elektra Abundance Evangelista Wintour, Pose (F/X) // Samira Wiley as Moira Strand, The Handmaid’s Tale (Hulu)
What an honor it is to give Mj her things.
For years we’ve been saying it. Not only is Mj Rodriguez an impeccable talent behind the mic, on stage, and on screen — but Blanca Evangelista is the beating heartbeat around which Pose revolves. If it’s a show that’s defined this cultural moment (and it is!), then absolutely zero of that has been possible without her. Finally this year, even the “straight” Emmys paid attention, landing Mj with a historic nomination. But no matter what happens on Sunday, I’m glad that we get to honor Mj Rodriguez here, first. Family to family. At its core, Pose has never been about the glamorous mirrorballs and ballroom runways. It’s about making a home for others out of seemingly nothing except your belief in each other, family dinners of $5 pizzas and take out on a card table in a warm, worn down apartment in The Bronx. I won’t lie to you, our little Gay Emmys comes out of a similar home grown spirit, so it feels fitting to celebrate Mj this way, full of queer heart and spirit. Thank you Mj Rodriguez for reflecting back the very best of us. Thank you for being our heart. — Carmen
Outstanding LGBTQ+ Actor in a Sci-Fi/Fantasy Show
Javicia Leslie as Ryan Wilder, Batwoman
Runner-Up: T’Nia Miller as Hannah Grose, The Haunting of Bly Manor (Netflix)
Other Nominees: Blu del Barrio as Adira Tal, Star Trek: Discovery (Paramount+) // Dom Provost-Chalkley as Waverly Earp, Wynonna Earp (SyFy) // Chyler Leigh as Alex Danvers, Supergirl (CW) // Chantal Thuy as Grace Choi, Black Lightning (CW)
It’s all been already said perfectly, the obstacle course of a job Javicia walked into this season and how well she exceeded every challenge thrown at her. As Carmen said, and as Nic has said, and as we’ve all been singing from the hillside every week since Ryan Wilder came to Gotham, Javicia is exactly what the show needed; she IS Batwoman. When the role was being recast, it was announced that the new Batwoman wouldn’t be Kate Kane at all, so there were concerns that the network would use it as an excuse to de-gay the show. We were all thrilled when Javicia was cast, a Black bisexual babe with a contagious smile. Her whole vibe is just so good, on and off screen, and she has an approachability about her that is magnetic, like you can’t help but think Javicia would fit in seamlessly in your queer friend group. Her queerness is important to the role, and it’s part of the reason the role is so important to her, which is just one of the many reasons (most of which have been mentioned at various points in this post) that she’s the perfect person for the job. — Valerie
Outstanding LGBTQ+ Director / Writer / Showrunner
Ashley Nicole Black and Lauren Ashley Smith, writers, A Black Lady Sketch Show
Runner-Up: Emily Andras, showrunner, Wynonna Earp (SyFy)
Other Nominees: Tina Mabry, director, Pose (“The Trunk”) (F/X) // Janet Mock, director, Pose (“Take Me to Church”) (F/X) // Hunter Schafer, writer, Euphoria (“Fuck Anyone Who’s Not a Sea Blob”) (HBO) // Lena Waithe, writer, Master of None Presents: Moments in Love (Netflix)
LET’S GOOOOO 🎵 Black Lady Emmys * clap clap 🎵 Black Lady Emmys *clap clap 🎵
I am DELIGHTED to be able to deliver this award to two of the strongest, funniest, paradigm breaking writers around. There is no one else working right now like Lauren Ashley Smith and Ashley Nicole Black. To try and quantify their talent actually leaves me dumbfounded. Which I hate! Because they deserve all their flowers. And unlike these two powerhouses, I’m failing to rise to the occasion.
Just this week Robin Thede, who has received so many of the (well deserved) accolades of creating ABLSS, shone light on the true unsung hero of the show : “Lauren Ashley Smith has been an invaluable part of the ‘A Black Lady Sketch Show’ team since its inception, creating a dynamic comedic landscape in the writing and tapestry of the show on all levels. Her contributions to the series are immeasurable and we’re all made better by knowing her!”
Ashley Nicole Black? In front and behind the camera? SHEEESH. Unmatched. Unparalleled. And once I again I know, I know that I am not saying nearly enough. And again I am sorry. I hope they can feel the love and admiration behind these stumbling words. I want to just run around laughing and squealing because it’s so rare when you get to really celebrate the right person for their jobs — and when it comes to these two, working in the shadows and taking over center stage, I just… again. Just. Wow.. Black Lady Emmys *clap clap 🎵 — Carmen
Most Groundbreaking Representation (Show)
Veneno
Runner-Up: Genera+ion (HBO Max)
Other Nominees: Master of None Presents: Moments in Love (Netflix) // P-Valley (Starz), Pose (F/X) // Special (Netflix)
Veneno is not a show with good representation — it is a show about representation.
Yes, it does quantifiable things that I’ve never seen before such as casting trans women as their characters pre-transition, portraying certain intercommunity dynamics, and prominently featuring older trans women. These are groundbreaking qualities. But what stands out most to me is its intelligence around representation itself. It doesn’t just want to tell the life story of Veneno. It wants to tell the story of how her story was told and how all of our stories are told.
Not only does it have a cast of trans actresses rivaled only by Pose — it understands the responsibility of putting these individuals on screen. I’ve started saying trans storytelling instead of trans representation, because the word representation has lost its depth. This is a show that understands that depth. This is trans storytelling at its finest. — Drew
Outstanding Animated Series
Harley Quinn
Runners-Up, Tied: One Day at a Time (“The Politics Episode”) (Pop TV) // The Owl House (Disney)
Other Nominees: Adventure Time: Distant Lands — Obsidian (HBO Max) // Blues Clues (Nick Jr.) // Magical Girl Friendship Squad (SyFy)
DC Animated Universe’s Harley Quinn finally did the thing comic book writers have been dancing around for decades: They gave Harley and her best friend Poison Ivy the on-screen romance they deserved. The second season basically plays out like an extended rom-com with Harley and Ivy dodging their feelings for each other as Harley deals with murdering her psycho ex-boyfriend and Ivy plans a wedding with her white bread current boyfriend. They’re best friends, okay? THEY’RE BEST FRIENDS. Ultimately, though, their feelings get the best of them and they hook up on Ivy’s bachelorette party weekend away — repeatedly. Ivy loves Harley but she doesn’t trust Harley with her heart, so she pushes her away and plans to go through with her wedding to Kite Man. But then! In an episode that throws it back visually to their very first meeting in Batman: The Animated Series, Harley shows how much she’s grown and what she’s willing to sacrifice for her friendship with Ivy, which makes Ivy realize she can trust Harley with her heart. And so they blow up Ivy’s wedding venue and ride off into the flames together. Picture perfect chaotic bisexual best friend to lovers love! — Heather
Outstanding Hairstyling for an LGBTQ+ Character
Angel Evangelista, Pose
Runner-Up: Sophie Moore, Batwoman (CW)
Other Nominees: Alex Danvers, Supergirl (CW) // Denise, Master of None Presents: Moments in Love (Netflix) // Nurse Ratched, Ratched (Netflix) // Veneno, Veneno (HBO Max)
This is almost too obvious. I mean Pose literally just won an official Emmy last weekend for “Outstanding Contemporary Hairstyling”! So of course this was always their race to lose. The third, and final, season alone had to transverse between the two distinctly different periods of the 90s, from the late ‘80s influenced momentous, big hair to their almost-nearly Y2K counterparts. And through it all, those curls.
Throughout two decades, Angel’s curls are about as iconic as you can get. They’ll be remembered long after the last of the glitter dust settles. But part of what I’ll remember most is Indya Moore without them — that they willingly cut their hair to tell the story of a young Angel before she found her family. That they’ve been in our lives all year without them, that hair can be home, and it is almost always political, but it also doesn’t define us. Strength does. — Carmen
Outstanding Costume Design for a Show With LGBTQ+ Characters
Pose
Runner-Up: Dickinson (Apple TV+)
Other Nominees: Batwoman (CW) // Genera+ion (HBO Max) // Master of None Presents: Moments in Love (Netflix) // Ratched (Netflix)
I mean props to the other nominees in this category, which are all undoubtedly visual feasts, but between its iconic, over-the-top ballroom sequences and the group wedding dress scenes at the end of its final season, Pose is the obvious winner for outstanding costume design. But it’s not just those most spectacle-driven sequences that make this show’s style stand out. The costumes are so specific to and revealing of each character, Elektra’s personal wardrobe (while obviously always luxurious) growing increasingly more lavish as her phone sex empire expands, Blanca serving cool mom chic, Pray punctuating his looks with hats and accessories. Their personal styles perfectly reflect who they are. — Kayla
Fan Favorite Categories
Fan Favorite Out LGBTQ+ Actor: Dom Provost-Chalkley
Fan Favorite LGBTQ+ Character: Maya Bishop, Station 19
Runner-Up: Carina Deluca, Station 19 (ABC)
Fan Favorite Couple: Maya and Carina, Station 19
The Straight Emmys are this Sunday, September 19th on CBS, pandemic and all.
Vote Now In Autostraddle’s 4th Annual TV Awards
The Primetime Emmy Awards are headed our way this very Sunday on September 19th, which — in the beforetimes — was usually an exciting time of year for Hollywood “insiders,” television critics, and fans everywhere of popcorn popping and yelling at celebrities while sitting on your couch in your pajamas.
Of course, the last 18 months have been anything but normal — not for any of us, and as it relates to this specific contest, not for the television industry. There’s been prematurely truncated seasons, retroactive cancellations and strange pivots and long production delays. While network and cable tv kept trying to adjust to the sky falling, streaming networks responded by erratically churned out new content seemingly without rhyme or reason. And arguably none of us have ever spent more time at home in front of a television! There’s been weekend mini-binges of new shows we’ve never never heard and multi-season comfort re-watches, and finally, in the last six months, long anticipated returns of our favorites.
And while the Emmys may not be delivered from home this year (Do you remember last year when they literally chucked Emmys at the winners from behind hazmat suits? #NeverForget), it’s certainly not “back to normal.” Though some things do remain the same! We began the Gay Emmys to celebrate the sheer breadth and quality of queer television that’s available to us now, in larger quantities than ever before. We know the talent is out there, even if the Television Academy still overwhelming follows the whims of mostly straight white cis men. And so our annual queer tradition — now in its fourth year! A marvel! — was born.
How it Works: Over the last few weeks our TV Team of queer critics nominated and voted on shows and actors and characters and creatives in the 21 categories you see below. These official nominees are the top six vote-getters in every category. Now you get to weigh in! Every Autostraddle reader is eligible to vote once in each category. Your votes will be combined with the TV Team’s votes to choose the winner! We’ve also chosen three fan-favorite categories over which you have total control. Your winners are the winners!
To choose our nominees, we abided by official Emmys rules for timing.That means shows must have occurred between June 1, 2020 and May 31, 2021. The majority of the show’s episodes must have aired within that time period.
Here is your official ballot!
Voting ends on Wednesday September 15, 2021 at 5:30 EST and winners will be announced on Thursday September 16!
And the Nominees Are…
Outstanding Comedy Series
Girls5Eva
Dickinson
A Black Lady Sketch Show
Teenage Bounty Hunters
Master of None Presents: Moments in Love
Hacks
Outstanding Drama Series
P-Valley
Killing Eve
The Handmaid’s Tale
The Wilds
Veneno
Pose
Outstanding Sci-Fi/Fantasy Series
Legends of Tomorrow
The Haunting of Bly Manor
Batwoman
Wynonna Earp
Supergirl
Star Trek: Discovery
Outstanding Lead Actor Playing an LGBTQ+ Character in a Drama Series
Mj Rodriguez as Blanca Evangelista, Pose
Hunter Schafer as Jules Vaughn, Euphoria
Danielle Savre as Maya Bishop, Station 19
Zendaya as Rue Bennett, Euphoria
Sarah Paulson as Nurse Ratched, Ratched
Nicco Annan as Uncle Clifford, P-Valley
Outstanding Supporting or Guest Actor Playing an LGBTQ+ Character in a Drama Series
Daniela Santiago as Veneno, Veneno
Cynthia Nixon as Gwendolyn Briggs, Ratched
Angourie Rice as Siobhan Sheehan, Mare of Easttown
Stefania Spampinato as Carina DeLuca, Station 19
Samira Wiley as Moira Strand, The Handmaid’s Tale
Dominique Jackson as Elektra Abundance Evangelista Wintour, Pose
Outstanding Lead Actor Playing an LGBTQ+ Character in a Comedy Series
Haley Sanchez as Greta Moreno, Genera+ion
Hailee Steinfeld as Emily Dickinson, Dickinson
Chase Sui Wonders as Riley Luo, Genera+ion
Paula Pell as Gloria, Girls 5Eva
Naomi Ackie as Alicia, Master of None Presents: Moments in Love
Hannah Einbinder as Ava Daniels, Hacks
Outstanding Supporting or Guest Actor Playing an LGBTQ+ Character in a Comedy Series
Lolly Adefope as Fran, Shrill
Ella Hunt as Susan Gilbert, Dickinson
Cole Escola as Chip Wreck, Search Party
Sasheer Zamata as Denise, Home Economics
Patti Harrison as Ruthie, Shrill
Nava Mau as Ana, Genera+ion
Outstanding Lead Actor Playing an LGBTQ+ Character in a Sci-Fi Series
Javicia Leslie as Ryan Wilder, Batwoman
Dom Provost-Chalkley as Waverly Earp, Wynonna Earp
Chyler Leigh as Alex Danvers, Supergirl
Victoria Pedretti as Dani Clayton, The Haunting of Bly Manor
Nafessa Williams as Anissa Pierce, Black Lightning
Kat Barrell as Nicole Haught, Wynonna Earp
Outstanding Supporting or Guest Actor Playing an LGBTQ+ Character in a Sci-Fi Series
Chantal Thuy as Grace Choi, Black Lightning
Blu del Barrio as Adira Tal, Star Trek: Discovery
Azie Tesfai as Kelly Olsen, Supergirl
Nicole Maines as Nia Nal, Supergirl
Meagan Tandy as Sophie Moore, Batwoman
Lachlan Watson as Theo Putnam, Chilling Adventures of Sabrina
Outstanding Performance by a Straight Actress in a Straight Role
Kathryn Hahn as Agatha Harkness, WandaVision
Hannah Waddingham as Rebecca Welton, Ted Lasso
Brandee Evans as Mercedes, P-Valley
Punam Patel as Kim Laghari, Special
Renee Elise Goldsberry as Wickie Roy, Girls5Eva
Michaela Coel as Arabella, I May Destroy You
Outstanding Cis Male Character
Brett Goldstein as Roy Kent, Ted Lasso
Billy Porter as Pray Tell, Pose
Angel Bismark Curiel as Esteban “Lil Papi” Evangelista, Pose
Toheeb Jimoh as Sam Obisanya, Ted Lasso
Justice Smith as Chester Morris, Genera+ion
Jason Sudeikis as Ted Lasso, Ted Lasso
Santana Lopez Legacy Award For Outstanding Queer Teen Character
Eris Baker as Tess Pearson, This Is Us
Chase Sui Wonders as Riley Luo, Genera+ion
Bre-z as Tamia “Coop” Cooper, All American
Zendaya as Rue Bennett, Euphoria
Hunter Schafer as Jules Vaughn, Euphoria
Haley Sanchez as Greta Moreno, Genera+ion
Best Episode with LGBTQ+ Themes
“Cease and Desist,” Girls5Eva
“CLICK WHIRR,” Genera+ion
“Fuck Anyone Who’s Not a Sea Blob,” Euphoria
“The Trunk,” Pose
“Chapter 4” (the pregnancy episode), Master of None Presents: Moments in Love
“Something Borrowed,” Harley Quinn
Outstanding Performance by an Out LGBTQ+ Actor in a Comedy
Hannah Einbinder as Ava Daniels, Hacks
Kate McKinnon, Saturday Night Live
Cole Escola as Chip Wreck, Search Party
Wanda Sykes as Lucretia Turner, The Upshaws
Paula Pell as Gloria, Girls 5Eva
Humberly González as Sophie Sanchez, Ginny & Georgia
Outstanding Performance by an LGBTQ+ Actor in a Drama
Gillian Anderson as Margaret Thatcher, The Crown
Emma Corrin as Princess Diana, The Crown
Dominique Jackson as Elektra Abundance Evangelista Wintour, Pose
Samira Wiley as Moira Strand, The Handmaid’s Tale
Mj Rodriguez as Blanca Evangelista, Pose
Lola Rodriguez as Valeria Vegas, Veneno
Outstanding LGBTQ+ Actor in a Sci-Fi/Fantasy Show
Chyler Leigh as Alex Danvers, Supergirl
Chantal Thuy as Grace Choi, Black Lightning
Blu del Barrio as Adira Tal, Star Trek: Discovery
T’Nia Miller as Hannah Grose, The Haunting of Bly Manor
Javicia Leslie as Ryan Wilder, Batwoman
Dom Provost-Chalkley as Waverly Earp, Wynonna Earp
Outstanding LGBTQ+ Director / Writer / Showrunner
Hunter Schafer, writer, Euphoria (“Fuck Anyone Who’s Not a Sea Blob”)
Ashley Nicole Black and Lauren Ashley Smith, writers, A Black Lady Sketch Show
Emily Andras, showrunner, Wynonna Earp
Janet Mock, director, Pose (“Take Me to Church”)
Lena Waithe, writer, Master of None Presents: Moments in Love
Tina Mabry, director, Pose (“The Trunk”)
Most Groundbreaking Representation (Show)
P-Valley
Master of None Presents: Moments in Love
Genera+ion
Veneno
Special
Pose
Outstanding Animated Series
Harley Quinn
Blues Clues
Adventure Time: Distant Lands — Obsidian
The Owl House
One Day at a Time (“The Politics Episode”)
Magical Girl Friendship Squad
Outstanding Hairstyling for an LGBTQ+ Character
Veneno, Veneno
Angel Evangelista, Pose
Sophie Moore, Batwoman
Denise, Master of None Presents: Moments in Love
Nurse Ratched, Ratched
Alex Danvers, Supergirl
Outstanding Costume Design for a Show With LGBTQ+ Characters
Genera+ion
Dickinson
Batwoman
Ratched
Pose
Master of None Presents: Moments in Love
Plus there are THREE FAN FAVORITE CATEGORIES —Fan Favorite Couples, Fan Favorite Out Queer Actor, and Fan Favorite Character. You will find them on the ballot when you…
VOTE NOW IN THE AUTOSTRADDLE 4th ANNUAL GAY EMMYS!
QUIZ: Which Mid-Aughts LGBTQ+ Female Television Character Are You?
LGBTQ+ representation was hard to find on television for a very long time, but we persevered and found, you know, a handful. Which one of these legendary ladies are you?
Which Mid-00s Lesbian/Bisexual TV Character Are You?
It wasn't too long ago that we really had to dig deep to find LGBTQ+ representation on television but you know what, we did our best!
Good Trouble’s Sherry Cola on Queer Asian Love Stories and Making Her Mom Proud
Pause for a second and think about some of your favorite queer Asian characters on television. I’ll forgive you if it’s a little difficult: according to GLAAD’s most recent “Where We Are On TV” report, only about eight percent of the LGBTQ characters on broadcast, cable and streaming television are Asian-Pacific Islander (28 characters).
Izzie from Atypical. Grace Choi from Black Lightning. Leila from The Bisexual. Adina El-Amin from The Bold Type. Kalinda Sharma from The Good Wife. Emily Fields from Pretty Little Liars. Brook Soso from Orange is the New Black. Arthie Premkumar from G.L.O.W. Nico Minoru from Runaways.
No matter what queer Asian character you thought of chances are one thing about them will be true: they will be in an interracial relationship. And while there’s nothing wrong with interracial love stories, what does it say about the lens through which we view queer racial identity that this is the story that Hollywood tells so often? Can the world not tolerate more than one queer Asian person at a time? What’s more: doesn’t it suggest — however unwittingly — that queer Asian people aren’t loved by their own communities? This season on Good Trouble, they’re rewriting the rulebook about what’s possible when it comes to queer Asian relationships on television by creating a love triangle featuring three queer Asian characters. To call it groundbreaking feels like a profound understatement.
I got to talk about Good Trouble star Sherry Cola about the Sumi/Alice/Ruby triangle and her pivotal role in creating and starring in the “Lunar New Year” episode.
Natalie: I talked to Joanna [Johnson, Good Trouble executive producer] a couple of weeks ago about what it’s meant to tell Alice’s story at this particular moment in our country’s history. For you, that must feel intensely personal. How’s it been to navigate telling these stories?
Sherry: First of all, Joanna Johnson is my queen. As the creator/producer/showrunner, she’s definitely seen my fire and my passion as Sherry and she honors and respects that in Good Trouble and it truly means a lot. Alice and I have a lot of parallels, you know, we’re both, we’re both Asian, we’re both women and I believe we’re both immigrants. For so long society, didn’t root for those things, but now I’m fully embracing and celebrating these identities. I’ve never felt more liberated to be honest. As Sherry, I feel a hundred percent whole for the first time in my life, just so proud of who I am and the fact that I get to tell these stories.
For this “Lunar New Year” episode, we started this process of filming at the end of March in the midst of the anti-Asian hate crimes. It was very emotional for me to be shooting this episode in the middle of all of these thoughts and all of these feelings, coping with the trauma and being worried for my community [while also] at the same time, trying to fight for my community. I’m really grateful to Joanna giving me this episode and actually allowing me to have the freedom to write Alice’s speech after she does the lion dance. I was really speaking from the heart and it was just — tears, true tears, real tears — because of everything we’ve gone through.
Good Trouble has been ahead of the time, period. From everything we touch on Black Lives Matter, trans rights, equal pay, etc., now, the queer audience experience. We make sure the audience does not feel left out in any way. The representation on this show is something that every single whole TV show to learn from. I’m not the same person I was before Good Trouble. This show has taught me so much, so I’m beyond grateful.
Natalie: I totally agree with you about Good Trouble. It feels like a show that really takes diversity seriously in an organic way compared to other shows, which are just trying to like check the diversity boxes. I really loved this “Lunar New Year” episode. I think it did a great job of really balancing kind of educating the audience — who, may not know what Lunar New Year is — while also being a really entertaining episode. Can you tell me a little bit about how this episode came about and your role in bringing it to fruition?
Sherry: Honestly, I’ve been telling Joanna I want a Lunar New Year episode and she gave it to me and I just on Cloud Nine about it. It was such a gift to be able to share my culture and such an important tradition. It was really a collaborative effort. Kara Wang, who plays Sumi, and I had an entire meeting with the writers about this, down to the superstitions and the details that we wanted to implement. I have to shout out the crew —- the props department, set decoration, wardrobe, everyone — who was so absorbing of all of our thoughts and made sure it was important to tell this Lunar New Year story with authenticity. It just was really cool and it was definitely very collaborative and I’m just so thankful for that.
Natalie: One of the things I really liked about this episode is kind of continuing to watch Alice’s evolution of her relationship with her parents. I’m not Asian but as a daughter of an immigrant and as black biracial, woman, I really related to some of the stuff that her parents said about making her tough. How is it important for you to showcase this relationship between this young woman and her immigrant parents?
Sherry: Portraying this story on the screen is just everything. Parental expectations are universal to everyone. Being compared to a sibling? Who can’t relate to that? But we’re showing it in such a culturally specific way…that is really the cherry on top.
I think it’s really beautiful to watch Alice find her voice in the comedy world and also with her family. She already came out to her parents and now she’s coming out as this person who wants to do comedy and wants to be unapologetically herself. But still, it’s hard when your mom is still kind of like hovering and kind of expects you to just take the heat. It’s really beautiful that Alice’s mom says, “we we just want you to have thicker skin because life can be hard for someone with a sweet heart like” hers. That’s a conversation that we don’t hear that often, especially with Asian families. I think right now we are catching up with these conversations that are overdue on-screen.
Also with my mom in real life, like, you know, everything that’s happened in the last couple of years — with me, being on Good Trouble and with all the anti-Asian hate crimes — I have had real conversations with my mother that I have, I should have had when I was younger. But I’m also learning as I go and she is too. It’s never too late to have these conversations. With Asian American kids and their immigrant parents, there’s that language barrier, there’s that cultural divide, there’s that generational gap, so to be able to meet in the middle and to have an understanding conversation. For me to be able to portray that on screen, on mainstream American TV, that just means a lot.
Natalie: With Alice’s dad, it was easy for him to understand her brother’s type of success — closing this $50 million deal — but not conceptualize what Alice’s brand of success looks like. What’s been your experience? You’re getting to a point in your career, you’re doing TV, you’re doing movies [including Adele Lim’s new comedy], you’re doing all of these things. How has it been for you to get your parents to conceptualize what success looks like?
Sherry: Personally, for Sherry, success is making my mom proud and to be able to take her around the world because we all know immigrant mothers, especially Asian immigrant mothers, they never live for themselves, not for a second. It was all about making sure I have a good life, taking care of her parents and sending money back to China, whatever it may be. My mom has never been to New York, my mom has not seen the world. For me, success is making her proud and making sure she sees the world. That is my definition of success and that’s my motivation really and everything that I do. My mom, she’s my rock, she’s my everything.
My mom always wanted me to just have a comfortable life but my dad was very much a dreamer. He also kind of wants to be famous. He was on a Chinese radio station here in LA when I was growing up. Then I ended up also doing radio and then moving into stand-up and TV and movies. They never had a traditional expectation for me when it came to career. I think that they’re actually really in awe of what I’m doing and they’re very supportive and very proud.
I’m lucky in that regard, but that’s the thing: with coming to America, we have these bare minimum expectations, essentially because society didn’t let us dream that big. With the AAPI community, we were happy to settle for less. We didn’t think we deserved more and that’s how we were brainwashed into thinking. But now we’re completely reclaiming this experience and kind of redefining who we are and not being put in a box and not being limited. You know, I’ve never felt so limitless in my life.
Natalie: We wouldn’t be Autostraddle if we didn’t ask about the queer relationships on the show. It’s kind of unbelievable to any queer Asian representation on television, period, but now we have a queer love triangle featuring three Asian women: we have Ruby and we have Sumi and they’re all competing for Alice’s heart.
Sherry: Listen, I’m beyond myself. I literally feel taken aback at the fact that I am telling this story that has never been told, period. I challenge everyone to name one other TV show that portrays lovesbetween two Asian women. It does not exist to this level. We’ve seen it with Alice and Sumi. We’ve seen them in all three seasons with this push and pull up and down. There’s history, there’s nuances that there’s layers. I can’t believe, and then they share the beautiful kiss at the end of the Lunar New Year episode and I’m just shook — I’m shook — that I never saw this growing up. Then we have Ruby, who is also Asian, and you have this Asian queer love triangle, like “what is going on?!” It’s so beautiful to see.
It’s a real story. It’s a real experience. Do you know how many female Asian couples I know? How it has not been on TV before in this way? It’s such a full circle moment, especially for Alice and Sumi. And I’m just so delighted to be able to tell this story, and hopefully this is a step in the right direction. I think a lot of other TV shows can take notes from Good Trouble and that’s the truth.
Natalie: Absolutely. I absolutely agree. So that means you’re team Sumi? Are you Team Sumi?
Sherry: Ah, honestly I’ve always said: Alice and Sumi endgame.
Yes, Chaotic Queers Are Still Watching “The L Word: Generation Q” With Their Exes
A couple years ago, I set out on a very important mission to find and talk to people who were willingly, enthusiastically planning to watch The L Word: Generation Q with their exes. My DMs became an instant stew of queer mess, and I loved it. With the series back for its second season, I had to know: Is this still a Thing?
Friends, it very much is. Here are some of the conversations — lightly edited for clarity — I’ve had with folks about watching and not watching Generation Q season two with exes. The only thing better than gay drama on TV is gay drama irl.
Megan, watching with their ex Sarah (featured in the next section!)
What is your Generation Q viewing situation?
I am 100% watching season 2 with my ex. We also watched all of the original series together in a ~6 week period about a year and a half ago (and we were already exes then too), and to this day we share one box set of the DVDs.
What’s your relationship with your ex?
We were each other’s first girlfriends when we were a junior and senior respectively in high school in ~2015 and have been friends since then!
Do you have any specific memories about watching the original series together?
We went in together on the DVD box set off of eBay because we had heard about the music licensing thing where if you stream the show, you get different songs than the original show. We both do a lot of film/media studies & care a lot about lesbian media specifically so we decided to watch it specifically for the like lesbian cultural background. We ended up watching the entire 6th season all in one marathon sitting in my living room.
Yes! Music choice is so important!
The DVDs also came with really incredible bonus content, and when Sarah was watching it because she had the DVDs at the time, she facetimed me in the middle of the day so that she could point the camera at her computer screen and we could watch the L Word puppet show together.
[At this point, Megan shared a video of the “L Word puppet show” bonus content from the DVDs, which I somehow had never seen before, so thank you for that gem, Megan!!!!!]
Did y’all watch season one of Gen Q together in addition to the original series?
I don’t think so, or if we did it was accidental/incidental. We live in the same city but haven’t seen each other very often because of covid but are trying to start seeing each other again and season 2 just seemed like a well-timed reason to get together.
Sarah, watching with her ex Megan (featured above!)
Hi Sarah! Your ex Megan said you might be down to chat with me for this article!
Megan and I dated in high school and had an amicable, college-based breakup, so we’ve just stayed best friends and decided right as Gen Q was coming out that we should binge the whole original show together. It was honestly such a nice way to consume 70 hours of high highs and low lows. We’ve always watched movies and tv together, so it was nice to have someone to not only discuss the plot with but also how far we’ve come in media representation. I feel like even though we hadn’t seen the original show in full yet, it was such a cultural touchstone for all queer women at the time we were both coming out (~2013) so it was already part of our shared experience as a exes and now friends. And now we trade custody of the eBay boxset we went in on together lol.
How does the DVD joint custody work? Do you trade the full box set back and forth or will someone be like “hey I want season 4″ for a few weeks?
Basically. If we ever want to watch clips we’ll usually just go on hulu, but if we’re rewatching chunks then we pass around whatever dvds we need. The best thing about it though is it has all the original special features which are truly unhinged. When I found them, I facetimed Megan to watch them together because I was like there’s no time for you to get here—it’s too important to put off. It’s definitely not the most efficient way to watch but it’s been very fun. We originally watched the series over her Christmas break, so we were both in San Francisco and could just meet up to watch which was nice and easy.
Are you looking forward to watching season two together?
Yeah for sure. I consume a lot of media with queer characters, and while it’s nice to have such a variety nowadays, there’s still something so enjoyable and special about a show that revolves entirely around queer women. To have writing that literally doesn’t care about pandering to straight people in any way. I was just with my family for a week and watching Gen Q reminds me of the difference between hanging out with them and my friend group of entirely queer people. Just less energy you need to expend.
Totally! And it sounds like both you and Megan are into talking about queerness in media in depth.
It’s definitely always been one of the biggest things we have in common. We’ve watched stuff together for years whether in person or over video chat. We have consumed a similar, really wide range of content, so she’s definitely my go-to to discuss queer media. We’ve known each other so long that we understand what the other likes and can recommend things to each other and talk about stuff without having to explain, you know, the general context that queer media exists in. Also Megan’s really fucking smart, so it makes for good conversation. She’s studied film in depth, and I’ve always been really interested in the history of queerness and representation so I always love putting those ideas together.
You both clearly have a lot of respect for each other. I was just trying to think if there are any pairs of exes from the show who seem as functional as y’all are, and I don’t think I can come up with anyone lol
Lmao there’s barely any general functioning pairs but definitely no exes.
Rebecca, planning to live-text with her ex while watching
Live-texting absolutely counts.
We are live-texting it while she watches with her wife on the other side of the country lol. The same wife she moved out of our house and left me for! Now we are best friends! CHAOS
It took a while for us to be able to talk about their relationship, but now that we are both moved on it’s good to hear that she found someone that can put up with her in ways that I couldn’t. We talk about our relationship and process how this one is more suited to her needs.
Did you watch season one with your ex?
We weren’t on good terms during season 1, but we recently rewatched all of season 1 together while I was coping from another breakup.
I love that your ex could be there for you through another breakup.
Yeah we reconnected during quarantine, and she literally drove down from Wisconsin to support me when I was going through it.
And then y’all watched all of season one.
Sure did. With lots of takeout and facemasks.
Did y’all have a favorite storyline or character?
Many arguments about Jenny (I am a fan of her insanity, she is not); love to make fun of Carmen’s Spanish, and obviously we never miss an opportunity to drag Tina. Oh wait, that’s the original—for the new one, we both cannot deal with Finley. Also love dragging her. And talking through the whole throuple situation given that we are both nonmonog.
Alex, watching with her ex…who she lives with
How long ago did you break up?
We broke up on Valentine’s Day in 2020 after 3.5 years together. Great timing just before lockdown too. 😅
Is the pandemic the main reason you still live together?
No, we moved to a new flat together last October because we genuinely get on really well still as pals. She met her new gf two weeks after we broke up so they’ve been all loved up since. I promise I am not making this all up hahah
So are you, your ex, and your ex’s new gf going to all watch season two together?
Hahah I’m sure we’ll all end up watching a few episodes together, yeah.
Do any characters on the show remind you of your ex?
Tina for sure (my ex agrees!)
LOL does that make you Bette?
I wish. I would say yes but my ex would probably disagree hahah
Even though y’all get along super well, do you think watching season two is going to feel a little different than watching season one together did?
If anything, it will probably be even better. We’re much better as friends! We even ordered all the original series DVDs off eBay to get a full rewatch in before it kicks off!!
I’m learning there are a lot of exes who share the DVDs!
Ahaha to be fair, are your DMs not chaos right now?
Sheer chaos.
Hahaha delivering the goods.
If your ex ever moves out, do you think you’ll find a way to still share the DVDs?
Omg yes the DVDs are split ownership.
Megan, watching with her ex Gabby (again!)
[I spoke to Megan and Gabby for the original article, and Megan was down to provide an update.]
First thing’s first: Did you end up watching season one with your ex?
I did indeed! I watched it with my ex Gabby, her girlfriend (now fiancée), and my girlfriend at the time (now an ex)! Gay and complicated enough for you? 😂
Do you have plans to watch season two with anyone from that group?
Yes! Gabby and her fiancée and I are planning to watch season two together again!
How was watching the first season together?
It was great! It brought back a lot of fun memories of watching the first series with Gabby in college when we were first dating. We also watched a couple episodes with another queer couple, and not everyone in the group had seen the original series so it was fun to hear their perspectives too, since they didn’t have the nostalgia factor. I think the excitement from the rest of us about it was a key factor, honestly, and it was interesting to hear what they thought of Gen Q as a standalone show without the backstory of the original. Like Shane opening Dana’s bar didn’t hit as hard as it did for the rest of us, for example. 😭
When we spoke last time, you said that while watching the original, you did think of Gabby as sort of a Shane haha but is there a different character (or storyline) that reminds you of Gabby in <em>Generation Q</em>?
Hmm. I’m not sure if there’s a particular Gen Q character that comes to mind, but I definitely feel like I strongly identified with Bette and Shane and Alice’s friendship. I loved that it felt so familiar after all these years and that they had clearly been there for each other through so much. I feel like Gabby and I have cultivated that kind of relationship, and I love it so much. Having that queer chosen family to come home to over and over again is so important, and Gabby is definitely a huge part of that for me.
I personally cannot relate, but I do know a lot of folks who consider their exes as family.
Oh for sure! Gabby is the only one of my exes I feel this way about, none of the rest haha. And it’s taken a lot of work to get here with her, I won’t lie. But I’m grateful. 😊 Now we just need a Planet Cafe or a Dana’s to meet up at for ridiculously long breakfasts to catch up on our gay lives, so we can truly be living the dream. 😂
Nikki, NOT watching with her ex (and in fact, not watching at all)
So you watched season one with your ex?
I watched the first season with my ex after we broke up! Bonus points because we decided to get matching tattoos the day we broke up! She came over to my parents house for Christmas after we broke up and watched season 1 lol.
But you won’t be watching season two together?
Correct! After being broken up since November 2019, we finally stopped talking because it was toxic, so unfortunately we will miss watching the second season together lol.
Can I ask what inspired the breakup tattoo? That sounds a bit like an L Word plotline.
We met in college, and I was visiting her in her hometown one time, and we went to her favorite book store and she bought me this book of poems and on the back were the words “stick tight.” So we decided to do that in terms of like sticking tight to each other and to love. Since we didn’t want to break up but it was obviously the best course of action for the two of us.
Do you think you’ll miss your ex at all while watching season two?
Well I won’t be watching it. Logistically, I can’t watch it because I used her logins for everything and if she hasn’t changed her password yet I would feel bad using it. But also because, as this was my first long term wlw relationship, it’s painful to see wlw relationships in media.
So are you avoiding queer TV in general at the moment?
Yes.
August, watching with their ex
[It’s worth noting that August asked their ex to watch season two with them SPECIFICALLY after seeing my tweet about this article. My impact.]
Does this mean you’re indeed going to watch together?
Yes. Ty for encouraging me to be on my worst behavior.
How long ago did you break up?
We broke up in early June. She moved out last Thursday, but then she spent the night that night??
Did you watch season one together?
Yes, that was our Sunday night appointment viewing.
So the tradition will likely continue for season two despite the breakup?
Yeah, I mean, I got the house and the Showtime login in the break-up. And it will probably be sexy and unhealthy for both of us.
Celina, NOT watching with her ex
[Celina wrote a very funny reply to one of my tweets about this piece, and even though she isn’t planning on watching with her ex, she agreed to talk to me about a different perspective. As she puts it: “always happy to support messiness in the arts.”]
Is there any part of you considering actually reaching out to your ex about watching the show together?
No. I would love to, but my pride won’t let me at this point. I don’t think it’s worth the effort anymore. When she ended things last year, I took some space away from her to heal even tho she wanted to be besties right away. When I finally reached out when I was ready (STRICTLY platonic—I have no attraction to her at all anymore, I literally just miss my best friend), she seemed happy to hear from me. But I realized I was the one initiating all the conversations so I backed off.
She also told me she has a new gf, who I assume is getting in the way of us being friends…which, isn’t the whole point that lesbians are notorious for being friends w their exes?? 🙄 lmaooo
Anyway, sorry to overshare, but perhaps this can shed some light on how truly complicated and annoying this show is both on-screen and in its off-screen implications! My ex was the one who introduced me to Gen Q because she was obsessed, and I LOVED binging it with her. So now I’m like…who tf am i gonna watch it with to that extent lmao.
I think a lot of people can probably relate.
I hope that didn’t come off as bitter tho! Nothing but love—I just really want a viewing buddy 😭
It totally doesn’t come off as bitter! I get it! I think it’s really hard when we associate a specific TV show with someone and then no longer have them to watch with. Bonding over a tv show can feel like a really intimate part of a relationship.
You’re absolutely right, thank you for understanding! I’m also realizing now how many intimate and important conversations we ended up having because of this show. That’s definitely hard to lose.
Do you remember any of those specific conversations you had because of the show?
A really big one was the way we both related to Dani. For my ex, she seemed to understand the way Dani processed her emotions. I empathized with Dani because of certain things her father said to her about her relationship with Sophie. It was similar to things I was told by loved ones when I first came out.
I’d also say our conversations about the whole Dani/Sophie/Finley issue shed a bit of light on our values and priorities in relationships—not in an inherently good or bad way, just an illuminating way.
Caty, watching with her very recent ex
Who are you watching season two with?
Me and my girlfriend broke up literally last night, and one of the terms of our breakup was that we’d still watch the new season of Gen Q together. Being a dyke is Exhausting.
What do you think it’s going to be like watching the show together given how recent the breakup was?
It’s probably going to be weird, because navigating our post-breakup friendship is so new. But honestly, there’s no better show than The L Word to make us feel better about our chaotic queer life choices.
Helen, watching with their ex’s ex… who is their girlfriend
Do either of you still stay in touch with your mutual ex?
Oh yeah, they’re best friends lmao. We all went dancing on Saturday!! Love 2 b a lil chaotic.
So technically there IS a chance y’all’s ex could end up watching the show with you, too.
Good god. I suppose.
As a Gemini, I love hearing about everyone’s chaos.
As a double Pisces/Scorpio rising, I love causing it.
Who are YOU watching season two of Generation Q with? I promise I won’t judge :)
Rosanny Zayas on Finding Empathy for Sophie, Wearing Shirts with “A Little Bit Too Much Titty” and Sneaking the OG L Word in High School
Feature image of Rosanny Zayas by Amy Sussman/Getty Images
When Season One of The L Word: Generation Q ended with Sophie Suarez looking fine as hell, running through LAX airport, the audience left with no clues as to whom she’d pick between her fiancée Dani and her best friend-turned-lover Finley — I had such a gay panic I almost tossed my laptop across the kitchen table. And while I think if you ask five people who they hope Sophie ultimately picks, you’ll get no less than three different answers (I’m personally and unapologetically pro-Finley in this situation, but also pro-Sophie choosing herself), it is Rosanny Zaya’s performance as Sophie Suarez that’s become the beating heart of The L Word’s new generation.
Beating heart is often conflated with “fan favorite,” but in Sophie’s case nothing could further from the truth. Lots of L Word fans haven’t forgiven Sophie for cheating on her fiancée. But Rosanny Zayas has ground Sophie’s mistakes in overwhelm, confusion, pain, and clarity all at once — when it would have been easier to her choices off as self-destructive gay chaos. In a literal sense, beating hearts are messy. They are goeey and bloody and slip out of your hands if you aren’t careful. When I had the opportunity to interview Rosanny Zayas just ahead of Generation Q’s Season Two premiere (airing now on Showtime apps and for free on YouTube), I couldn’t wait.
Carmen: Well, I’m going to start off by doing a quick game… because Showtime gave me very clear “We cannot spoil anything” directions.
Rosanny: Right.
Carmen: But of course, you already know Autostraddle. So I assume, you know the deal. We can get very into The L Word. So I thought we would maybe play a fun game called “Rosanny Can’t Say That.” And I’m going to ask you some questions that you cannot answer so that our readers don’t yell at me for not asking it, but then also we’re not breaking any of the Showtime coverage rules. How does that sound?
Rosanny: Okay!
Carmen: So, can you tell me who Sophie picked? And then you’re going to say —
Rosanny: I can’t answer that… but I do love chocolate ice cream.
Carmen: Okay, that was perfect. So just to double check, can you tell me who Sophie picked in the end?
Rosanny: I can’t tell you who Sophie picks, but I want to say that I… I’m looking at my shoe collection right now and I think that I need to get rid of some shoes because I don’t wear half of them and I don’t know why.
Carmen: I love that.
Rosanny: Really? Why?
Carmen: Because I was trying to learn more about you, just doing pre-interview research and there are not many interviews done with you! Which is why I was so excited to talk to you.
I still remember… I mean, literally to this day, not even the first episode of The L Word: Gen Q, but I remember when you got cast. I screamed.
I legit screamed at your casting announcement, because we were obviously following Gen Q very closely and I have to be honest with you, I did not expect for them to cast an Afro-Latina in a lead role. Sophie Suarez is the first Afro-Latina I’ve definitely ever seen in a queer role on television, certainly to the extent of being able to be a full character and I just became like a loyal fan from casting announcement. Day One, I was in. I looked up and I saw Sophie Suarez and then I matched the name to your photo, and I was like, “She’s Black.” And that was it for me… I was in the Autostraddle Slack screaming.
Rosanny: Oh, that’s so sweet. Thank you so much for saying that.
Carmen: And I think that ties to how you haven’t been able to get as many interviews as I would be really interested in, because I do think you kind of exist in this important moment.
One, and I recognize that this has already been gone through, but it’s a reboot of an iconic show. Everyone knows that part, but beyond that I really believe that there just are not many… who are, you know… there aren’t many who can speak to a diversity of Latinx experiences. That’s something that I was really interested in about Sophie right away. I was wondering if that’s part of what interested you in playing her or how you’ve developed her over the last two years?
Rosanny: Definitely. I mean, I think you’re right. It’s just such a rare moment when you get… I already feel lucky enough to play a lead role in anything.
Carmen: Period. Word.
Rosanny: Yeah. In anything, in anywhere, whether it be a lead character or if they’re playing the stereotypical characters that are just like, “Lord, when is this going to end?”
So it is really nice to have a moment, which I hope is a life mission of mine is to continue my career. Hopefully in my work, in acting, in television and movies or whatever it is that I’m doing, I’m giving voice to see a character that has an accent like mine or hair like mine or wears my kind of lipstick or will wear a shirt that maybe shows a little bit too much titty but just enough to make you keep watching because that’s the kind of shirts I wear!!
Things that are unique to me, but also speak to the neighborhood I come from and the people that I love and the people that I cook food for and cook food for me. And those are the things that are really exciting that hopefully we get to show more and more on television, not just in The L Word.
Carmen: I was just going to say, it’s interesting you even brought up “people I cooked food for” because that’s a really famous, or at least to me famous, line that Sophie says in Season One.
She’s having this fight with Dani about the wedding, right? And she says, “I just want to have a wedding where people are eating food that my mom made and I can breathe.” And it floored me.
Because The L Word can be silly and it can be sexy and it can be all those things, but to have that moment, first of all, to have that moment between two Latinas… One of my favorite parts of Season One is the ability to kind of explore how race and class affect Dani and Sophie’s relationship. That was this really specific, nuanced thing that’s happening in the middle of the soap opera that we all love.
Rosanny: No, I love it. That’s Marja[-Lewis Ryan, Generation Q showrunner] and the writing team and them also asking questions. That’s something that is just so unique to talk about — just because you are Latina, that doesn’t mean you’re going to come from this, or have the same perspective in the world. We all have our own unique perspective in what we do and how we’re brought up or how we feel about things.
And it’s interesting to see these two Latinas love each other, right?
And then to also have these moments where it’s like, “Actually, I come from a different place.” And Dani’s like, “Well, I come from this place.”
It’s like, “Okay. Yeah, we do. We love each other.” But at the same time, do we get each other?
Carmen: I want to explore that more! But I’m afraid any other question I might ask as follow up goes back to the very scary bold faced font that Showtime gave me about No Spoilers. But yeah, I feel that.
Just to bring it to Season Two in a very vague way, I was curious, what was it like for you to add more layers to Sophie this year? I had the opportunity to see the first three episodes of this season as a part of press screeners, and one of the things that really struck me was how much Sophie’s grappling with herself — and that has nothing to do with any plot, but it was just internal to her. I was like, “Wow, there’s this messy growing up moment that’s happening here.”
What was that was like for you to start pulling back these layers and find what’s underneath — to find a little messiness and dig in.
Rosanny: It was a challenge for sure. I can speak now from the actor’s standpoint. It’s difficult because there are times… going back to being Afro-Latina, being from New York and where I from, it’s like, you could just [be loud] and show it off. You could just be like, “This is fucking crazy and this is the world I’m living in and it’s insane.”
Carmen: Right.
Rosanny: But at the same time, it’s a funny little dance that you have with the camera and yourself and then literally either it feels like… Whenever we were shooting, it felt like the camera was looking deep inside. And so it was a negotiation between me and Marja, whoever directed, and the people behind the camera. I was like, “How much do I let you in? And how much do I keep to myself?”
That’s hard to do because it’s an Open and Close, Open and Close. Who do I open up to or who do I not open up to right now? Who can I trust? Who trusts me? All those different perspectives in the world, and it’s funny because the camera can see all of that.
And so, it was really hard to negotiate all of that, but it was definitely fun and I learned so much.
Carmen: OKAY I see you flexing your Juilliard training! I see it.
Rosanny: [laughs] I mean, Juilliard did some stuff. They did a lil somethin somethin.
Carmen: Yeah they did a lil somethin somethin [laughs]
So our classic kind of goodbye question is: What is your L Word origin story? In the research I did for this interview, one of those aggregate websites that collects information from other websites said you saw The L Word for the first time in high school. And I —
Rosanny: I did. Yes.
Carmen: Okay. So I was wondering if you could tell me what do you remember? What that was like?
Rosanny: Yeah, definitely. It was mainly me hiding from my mom in like 11 o’clock at night. So she wouldn’t watch me watch women have sex on television.
Carmen: Word to THAT.
Rosanny: And then, just a Dominican mom being like, “¿Qué está haciendo?? Why do you watch this porn?” And I’m like, “No ma, look she’s Black. —”
Carmen: [laughs]
Rosanny: “It’s okay.”
Carmen: I used to delete them! Because I watched it on DVR back when families had DVRs on cable. And then I would delete the watch history because I was so terrified that my mother would find it.
Rosanny: Oh we had the illegal cable box! So there was no history of nothing.
Carmen: See, that’s actually the benefit of an illegal cable box. Shout out to the bootleg man for the hook up!
Rosanny: Yep. That’s my origin story.
Good Trouble EP Previews Alice’s 3B Storylines: “She’s Growing So Much”
Soon after Good Trouble‘s third season debuted, it seemed like Alice was living a charmed life. She secured a coveted spot in the CBTV diversity workshop. She was building relationships with fellow comics while still showing up for her friends at the Coterie. Plus, she’d met Ruby and suddenly there was the possibility that the perpetually unlucky in love comedienne might finally find happiness.
But by the midseason finale, Alice’s life was anything but charmed. The diversity workshop was becoming more draining, than fulfilling: pitting the comics from underrepresented communities against each other while forcing them to perform sketches that transform them all into stereotypes. Behind closed doors, Alice’s fellow comics are just as frustrated as she is but when the time comes for them to stand up for themselves, they’re all rendered silent. Also silent? One of Alice’s personal heroes, Margaret Cho, and her would-be girlfriend, Ruby. Alice walks out of the CBTV diversity program alone, potentially ending her comedy career and her relationship before they’ve really begun.
What does Alice’s future hold now that she’s seemingly upended her entire life? In advance of tonight’s midseason premiere (which airs at 10PM on Freeform), I talked with Good Trouble Executive Producer Joanna Johnson about that and what it felt like to watch Alice’s storyline play out against a the backdrop of anti-Asian violence during the pandemic and the murders in Atlanta.
Autostraddle: In the mid-season finale, Alice ended up taking a stand and she ends up out on the ledge by herself, despite what she’s heard from her other comedians in the program and what she also heard from her hero, Margaret Cho. Is that going to make her reevaluate if she has what she needs to succeed in the business?
Johnson: I think that Alice’s arc is to find her voice and to stand up for herself. She’s probably always been good about standing up for others, but not quite standing up for herself. So, in this respect, she stood up for herself and others and they didn’t stand up for her.
Autostraddle: When she walked out of the program, she wasn’t just walking out of this career opportunity, she was also walking out on the possibility of this thing she has with Ruby. Is there any hope of salvaging that relationship and what can we expect from them going forward?
Johnson: I think Ruby has to learn to stand up. And I love Alice for saying to Ruby, “You can’t just stand up for me in private. You have to publicly do that.” And I don’t want to be in a relationship with someone who can’t have my back in public, even at the cost of their career.” And so, it’s just great to see Alice growing so much and respecting herself so much. So I think that Ruby is going to have to do a lot of… If she’s going to try to get back on track with Alice, she’s certainly going to have to prove herself.
Autostraddle: Earlier this year, Sherry Cola did an interview where she said, “Good Trouble has been a show that’s ahead of its time reflecting real life issues before the world catches up.” But when it comes to Alice’s storyline this season, it seems like the world caught up with the show in a really, really tragic way with the rise of anti-Asian violence during the pandemic and the murders in Atlanta. What that was like from your perspective to see it play out with tragic consequences in real life?
Johnson: Yeah. It was hard, for sure. Sometimes people will say that the show is ahead of world events and it’s really, really not because hatred, racism, bias and social injustice have always been here. We just chose to talk about it on the show where maybe some people weren’t talking about it. We didn’t invent them. We weren’t ahead of the curve. We were just paying attention.
Autostraddle: A lot of other shows have [touched on social justice issues] and they’ll touch on it for a little bit and then they’ll go back to being the same old show, but it’s really been a part of Good Trouble‘s DNA to tackle these issues from the very beginning. What’s the thinking behind that?
Johnson: One thing that I have really noticed in this generation is that they do care about the problems facing the world — problems that they’re going to inherit — and they do want to make a change and they do want to make a difference. They also talk about these things more maybe than other generations. So we wanted to make a show that was true to the things that people in their 20s care about. But, another thing is: you don’t have to be an activist, this is just what you’re going to be faced with this in your life, especially when you’re in your 20s and you’re trying to make a career, you’re trying to get a job. You’ve got student loan debt. You’re faced with a lot of things as a young person trying to become an adult.
Ultimately, we want to make sure that we are being an entertaining show, that we’re moving people, that we’re telling stories about real characters and the issues arise out of their real lives and their real work life and their real struggles and drama. We put a lot of humor into it too…and sexiness and all the things that make up your 20s…so that it’s not an “issue show.” We’re not trying to preach to anybody, but we’re just trying to show what it is, what you’re facing in your 20s living in America and in the world.
https://youtu.be/dIppBmNx7GU
Tune in tonight for the Good Trouble season 3 midseason premiere on Freeform and come back tomorrow for more of my conversation with Joanna Johnson.
Amity Smooches Luz as “The Owl House” Breaks More Disney Ground
Disney’s The Owl House was a very bright spot on a very cloudy 2020, and I’m here to tell you the series is just as goofy, kind, lovable, and queer in season two. The most recent episode, “Through The Looking Glass Ruins,” which was penned by bisexual show creator Dana Terrace and super queer super nerd Molly Knox Ostertag, is the gayest one yet. It opens with Luz ever-so-casually seeking out Amity in the library, stretches its legs with some they/them pronouns, and closes with a lil’ cheek smooch that leaves Luz in a blushing heap on the ground and me squealing like a manic little bird. Like this:
Luz doesn’t know how to get back to the human realm, and all the messages she’s trying to send her mom to tell her not to worry aren’t going through. She doesn’t want to leave the magical realm, exactly, but she doesn’t want her mom to worry either, so when she finds out there was another human in the magical realm a long long time ago, she decides to try to find his old journal to see if he was able to figure out how to move between worlds. It turns out he donated his diary to the library, so Luz asks Amity to help her dig it up in the FORBIDDEN STACKS.
But before her ask, Luz takes a good minute to peep on Amity doing her readings with the little magical kids in the children’s section, blushing when she sees her putting her hair up, blushing EVEN HARDER when Amity’s older siblings find her, and nearly bursting into flames when Amity pops up and Luz says that no, her brother and sister aren’t bothering her, she just came here to see Amity — “… and, uh, here you are!”
(Edric, Amity’s brother, is there to research skincare tips for a date that night. Emira, Amity’s sister, says, “He needs all the help he can get, after he texted a poem TO THEIR MOM.” Can’t wait to meet them!)
Amity’s not much of a rule-breaker, and if she gets caught in the FORBIDDEN STACKS she could lose her job. Plus, um, the last time she broke the rules — to save Luz’s life — she got in big time trouble. But when Luz suggests that finding the diary might allow her to show Amity around the human realm one day (like a date), Amity grabs her arm and they’re off! Every time they brush up against each other or say anything even mildly or accidentally flirty to each other, they blush like sunsets and turn away. When they inevitably get caught, and Amity gets fired, Luz starts rattling off a plan to help her get her job back, but Amity says she’s gotta go. Being around Luz makes her do stupid things, and she wishes it didn’t. “It’s okay,” Luz says, with tears in her eyes, “I do stupid things around you too, Amity.” OH MY MAGICAL BABY KITTENS, THAT’S LOVE. YOU’RE FALLING IN GAY LOVE.
Amity leaves Luz on the steps of the library, but Luz has never met a problem she chooses to leave alone. So she marches back in there, goes through a whole bunch of dangerous magical trials, and gets Amity’s job back from the Master Librarian.
When she arrives on Amity’s doorstep to give her her employee badge and apologize, Amity is so overwhelmed, she kisses Luz on the cheek, which nearly gives both of them a heart attack. Amity rushes back inside yelling, “Okay good to see you farewell forever!!!!!” (GAY!) (LOVE!)
There are so many brilliant queer characters on animated TV these days, but one thing that really sets The Owl House apart is that it’s on the Disney Channel, which is aimed at younger viewers (six to eleven) than, say, She-Ra on Netflix or Steven Universe on Cartoon Network. And! Luz is a queer Latinx character, who speaks Spanish freely and frequently, written by a queer Latinx writer. It’s doubly groundbreaking!
There are eight more episodes of The Owl House in season two, then three 44-minute specials in season three. I can’t wait to see where Luz and Amity go next. HOOTIE HOO!
Jen Richards on Changing Hollywood and the Projects That Don’t Get Made
Jen Richards interview feature image by Rich Polk via Getty Images.
As a trans woman in Hollywood, your job is rarely just to act or write or fulfill whatever role is next to your name in the credits. Whether you want it or not, you also become a teacher, an activist, an advocate — for the community and for yourself.
Since releasing her Emmy-nominated, Peabody-winning web series Her Story, Jen Richards has appeared on shows such as Nashville and Take My Wife, starred in the standout episode of the new Tales of the City, and written and pitched a multitude of her own projects we’ve yet to see. She’s also established herself in interviews, online, and in last year’s landmark documentary Disclosure, as one of our most thoughtful voices on trans media.
She’s someone I’ve looked to for inspiration since the moment I came out and it was such a pleasure to talk to her about her work on CBS’ Silence of the Lambs sequel Clarice and her experiences navigating the industry as a trans woman.
Drew: Hi Jen!
Jen: Hi!
Drew: You’re in Vancouver right now, right?
Jen: One week into quarantine.
Drew: Right, the rules there are still really strict. You’re there working?
Jen: Yeah, I’m here writing a show I have in development.
Drew: That’s great. I’m calling you from Cincinnati where I’m working on Monica starring Trace (Lysette).
Jen: Oh it finally got greenlit! I didn’t know they were actually making it.
Drew: Yeah! We start shooting tomorrow.
Jen: What’re you doing on it?
Drew: I’m the director’s assistant. Andrea (Pallaoro) was actually my first ever film teacher when I was 16. We’d lost touch but in 2018 I was writing a script based on the summer when I met him and I happened to look him up and saw on IMDb that his next movie was about a trans woman. So I sent him an email like… been awhile funny story I’m trans… and then we met back up. And yeah I can’t believe it’s finally happening because he was working on getting it made back then.
Jen: That’s fantastic. I loved the script when we were all auditioning for it and I can really see Trace in the part. I’m very excited.
Drew: Yeah me too! Okay so my goal with this conversation is to give people a bit of a window into your career so far and just the realities that go along with being a trans woman in Hollywood. I first learned about you in 2016 when you were on a podcast I really loved called Represent (hosted by Aisha Harris) but I imagine you were doing stuff before then. What was your first job in the industry?
Jen: My first actual job… I mean, Her Story.
Drew: That was your first? When did you move to LA?
Jen: To do Her Story.
Drew: Oh wow!
Jen: Yeah. I mean, if you want to go back I was first on stage when I was six months old. Both my parents were actors. Not professional but in the little town in Mississippi that I’m from. My mother was a great actress and a very beautiful woman. My father was very charming and always dreamed of going to Hollywood to be a writer and an actor. I didn’t learn that until much later — he died when I was young. So I did theatre and I don’t remember a time when I wasn’t writing. I can remember my Apple IIe and writing fantasy stories on that and doing theatre through elementary, junior high, and high school. I was the — Well, I was the hot young guy. (laughs)
Drew: (laughs) Oh yeah?
Jen: Yeah I was the lead of everything. And I continued to do theatre in college, but I never had any professional aspirations. I think I always wanted to be a writer but we didn’t have much money and my mom was very practical. And I had wanted to become a professor of philosophy. So to me writing and acting was just what I did for fun. It was my relief. It was how I spent my evenings. I would write screenplays or write stories and just jot down ideas. I wrote my first feature screenplay when I was in my early 20s. But mostly I just did theatre at night. Like I had a regular life and then would just do theatre on the side.
For ten years I worked in non-profit management in the fine arts — dance and classical music. So I would work in the office during the day and at night I’d either take Shakespeare classes — which is still a big passion of mine — or just do plays at the local community theatre. But I never really thought about pursuing it professionally. It just seemed so far away and so remote. Like that was something that other people do. And I didn’t like being poor. I was kicked out when I was 19 and I had to work full time — I didn’t get to go to college — so money was also an issue. I just had to work full time. That was first and foremost. And everything else was just for fun.
It was only after transition and getting involved in trans advocacy work in Chicago that it changed for me. I was really, really fired up. There was so much happening at the time. This was a few years prior to the big trans moment in the national media but obviously there was still a lot happening. And there was a lot of violence at the time too. The year that I came out I think three different trans women in Chicago were murdered. The first event that I ever went to as an out trans woman was a memorial service for Paige Clay who was murdered in Chicago. And I was living with Angelica Ross at the time — Janet Mock had introduced us. When none of us were known by anybody. (laughs)
Drew: (laughs)
Jen: And I was just doing advocacy work. I created a website called We Happy Trans and then I created this other project called the Trans 100. It was this exciting moment of advocacy but I still maintained this fantasy of writing and acting.
I had quit doing Shakespeare when I transitioned. I remember when I came out I accepted that three things were going to be true: 1) I would always be a freak — just a man in a dress, 2) no one would ever love me again, and 3) I would never act again. Those were the three things I had to accept before I transitioned. Because, you know, there were no trans actors! Ten years ago? That didn’t exist as far as I knew. I mean, besides Candis Cayne, I just didn’t know of anyone and she seemed like such an impossible standard. But I happened to live in the same neighborhood as one of my Shakespeare teachers and after a couple years they were like it’s time to come back and start doing female monologues. I was reluctant but they coaxed me back. And then I was like oh shit I forgot how much I loved this.
Right about that time there was a web series being filmed in my neighborhood called Hashtag and one of the producers had seen me tweeting about trans actors and asked if I would come be on the web series. So I got cast in this one scene role as a waitress who comes and helps one of the main characters who was played by Laura Zak — it was her web series. So we actually met on screen. You can see in the show Hashtag the very first time Laura and I ever met.
Drew: Oh wow!
Jen: Yeah so I got to know some of the people involved in that series — it was a little company in Chicago called tello. And then they asked if I wanted to write a web series about trans women and I said yeah that sounds great. And I asked Laura if she would do it with me in part because I like collaborating and in part because I had a crush on her and didn’t know how else to hang out with her.
Drew: (laughs)
Jen: Like, hey do you wanna work together?
Drew: Classic.
Jen: It’s very effective. And so, yeah, I wrote Her Story on yellow legal pads and Google docs with no scene headings. I would just write “Violet:” and then dialogue and then “Paige:” and then dialogue. And then Laura turned it into a script.
We felt like we made something kind of special. I felt like we were writing something I had never seen before. I was taking from Angelica’s stories and my stories and I was always really intrigued by our differences — who we were dating, our race, and all that. I just felt like we had something special. But the producer in Chicago didn’t seem very excited about it and I got frustrated. Laura had a friend in LA — Kate Fisher — who came across the script and she loved it and she asked if she could produce it instead and put more money into it. We would just have to come to LA to make it. And so we decided to go with Kate and we made Her Story. I came out to LA to film that and while I was there Caitlyn (Jenner) asked me to be on her show so I stayed a little longer to film that. And then some filmmaker asked me to film his movie so I stayed a little longer to film that and eventually it became a career.
Drew: After you and Laura wrote Her Story, were you trying to still make it with that original producer and it didn’t work? What was the timeline there?
Jen: It was going to get made for like $8,000 with the producer in Chicago. It was going to be a tiny little web series that our friends could see. Very, very low budget. But their lack of enthusiasm bothered me. And then Kate was so enthusiastic about the script and she had more money to produce it. So we asked the producer in Chicago if she would let it go — she happily did so. And then we made it with Kate.
Drew: When you’re making a web series like this and a producer puts up money they’re not expecting any return on their investment. Was the conversation with Kate that it could someday be a series and that was the investment? Was it just that she really loved the project and wanted to give money to be a patron? What were the conversations around getting financing for a project like Her Story?
Jen: I always feel bad when I talk to people — filmmakers especially — about how I got my start because it was so opposite of everybody else. Kate wanted to give us a ton of money all well knowing that she would never get it back. She’d actually gotten inheritance from a very homophobic, racist grandparent and she kind of wanted to spend the money on something that would piss them off. (laughs)
Drew: (laughs) Incredible.
Jen: And she just got severance from another job. So she basically came into this money and she was either going to go to grad school or make a series and she decided to make a series. I mean, she’s an angel. It wouldn’t have existed without her.
I felt bad that Kate kept putting in more money and upping the budget. Here I am a first time filmmaker and she’s putting all this money into it that we were never going to get back. She had to talk me into taking money. That was my first experience in Hollywood.
Drew: Wow.
Jen: As a first time writer, I felt like nothing I created could possibly justify this much money. That was the cognitive dissonance — nothing I wrote could possibly justify this kind of expenditure. And not just the money. We were hiring real professionals, we got a real director, we had auditions with real actors. I was having a panic attack. I mean, Laura had to coax me through it every step of the way. It was just too weird to think professionals would spend their time and Kate would give her money to something that came out of my head. That just did not make any sense to me.
Drew: It’s interesting though because you said that since you were a kid you were writing. This was your first professional project but you just said you wrote your first screenplay when you were in your early 20s. It’s become a cliche to say walk through the world like a cis straight white man but, you know, there are film students who are cis straight white guys who are making stuff and taking that money who spent fewer creative hours than you had.
Jen: (laughs) Yeah, yeah, that’s true. God I wish I had the audacity of a mediocre straight white man.
Drew: Do you feel like you have a bit more now?
Jen: Um… No. (laughs)
Drew: Well then I’ll take this as an opportunity to boost your ego a bit and talk about Her Story. So I first knew about you in 2016, like I said, and then I came out in early 2017 and because you were one of the few trans women who I was aware of I watched Her Story maybe the week that I came out — I watched it really, really soon after I came out to myself let alone to anyone else. I remember writing something on Tumblr about it where I was just so overwhelmed.
I think my experience of transitioning would’ve been significantly harder if I hadn’t been able to watch Her Story. For two reasons. One, just seeing the on-screen representation. But also like you were saying when you came out you said to yourself you had to give up acting — that was something I wasn’t willing to do. For so long I wanted to write and act and direct and I could never sacrifice that. Maybe I would’ve gotten to a point where I could’ve, but that was a really big issue for me. And knowing that Her Story existed and that all these incredible trans women were making the kind of art that I wanted to see, that I wanted to make, it just completely shifted my worldview going into my transition.
I think it’s just an amazing show separate from my emotional attachment to it and representational stuff, but that was all very important for me.
Jen: You know, I haven’t seen it in awhile, but it stands up.
Drew: It really does.
Jen: When we would tour around with it I didn’t want to watch it because it’s hard for me to watch. It’s very personal. There’s some pretty raw stuff on screen. And sometimes I’ll be like oh I’ll only watch a little bit. But I always get sucked in! I feel like I’m watching someone else’s work. And it’s pretty compelling.
Drew: It’s really good. I’m glad you can acknowledge that.
Jen: Yeah, because it doesn’t feel like mine. I mean, Sydney’s fingerprints are such a huge part of that. And you can’t plan for someone like Angelica Ross. For me, being Angelica’s roommate in Chicago — you can’t know Angelica and not know she’s a star. Like it seems obvious now because she is a massive star, but at the time she wasn’t doing this and it was still so obvious that was who she was. So you just can’t plan for that kind of thing. I mean, Sydney hasn’t stopped working. She’s done movies. She’s done so much TV. She’s brilliant.
Drew: Yeah she’s amazing.
Jen: And we had Fawzia Mirza! It was just one of those lightning in a bottle kind of things. I watch it and feel just how lucky we were to find Kate and to find the talent that was involved. And the timing. It just so happened that we were doing an Indiegogo for Her Story as I Am Cait was airing so there was so much public attention. And then the Emmy’s category. There wasn’t an Emmy category for short form narrative at the time. And then after it came out they decided to make it an Emmy category and it had to have at least six episodes and it had to be at this length and we met all the criteria by accident. So the things that ended up being so definitive like the Emmy nomination weren’t even in our minds as a possibility. It was just one of those rare things so I feel humbled that I got to be some part of it.
Drew: So then it was nominated for an Emmy and I assume there was a process of trying to get it turned into a series…
Jen: (laughs)
Drew: And we all know that didn’t happen. Can you talk a bit about what that process was like?
Jen: Laura and I decided to pitch it as a one-hour drama and we came up with ten episodes. And it was brilliant. I mean, it was really fucking good. What we came up with was stuff that had never been seen on TV — this was pre-Pose — and some things I still haven’t seen. And we had compelling characters, a proven audience, so many awards — not only the Emmy nomination but we won a Peabody, we won a Gotham, countless awards. We were the first web series to be entered into film festivals — AFI did a whole case study on us. We had so much there and we would come in and we would pitch — we pitched it everywhere — and we had thought it out in so much detail. Kate put together this beautifully designed pitch deck. I thought it was a really strong pitch. I would get very, very passionate in the room. All the creative executives seemed to love it. And then we would get the same feedback all the time — it’s too niche, we don’t know what this is, there’s never been anything like it, it’s too much of a risk, it’s too much of a gamble, we have a gay show somewhere in the works. We just got No’s everywhere we went. We just got No’s. It was really demoralizing.
Drew: Ugh I’m sure.
Jen: Especially knowing it was good! It’s still a really good fucking pitch. We would always get the same feedback from — not to center them — but straight white cis dudes would just be like oh my God I forgot this was a trans story because I was just invested in these characters. And I felt like we brought that to the whole series. We built out the world. We had trans men, we had non-binary people, we had more trans people of color, we had a young person, we had an old person. It was tragic and comedic and sexy. It was really good TV! I know that objectively. It was good TV. And Hollywood was just scared because they’d never seen anything like it. It sucks. It really sucks.
Drew: It really does suck. Since then about how many projects have you written or pitched?
Jen: I wrote a feature script about three trans women who are friends. A Latina trans lesbian who’s a recovered drug addict, a white trans woman who has just come back to town and gone stealth, and a Black trans woman who is very successful and meets a Black trans guy who she doesn’t know is trans at first — like he has to disclose to her that he’s a trans guy — and then she falls in love. And the premise was they were friends when they were in their 20s in a trans support group, they’d grown apart since then, they start hanging out when the one comes back, and it’s just about their relationships with each other and their personal relationships. I think it was called Girls Like Us, because that name hadn’t been used yet. So that became sort of a writing sample. It got me into the Outfest screenwriting lab, but I don’t think anyone seriously considered making it. I don’t remember having any meetings with any producers about it — and again this was still pre-Pose. I don’t think there was any interest from anyone in actually making it. It’s not a great script by my standards, but it’s a good script and there are good characters and I think it would have been a nice little indie film. But I didn’t have the confidence or the connections. I didn’t even have an agent. So I didn’t really know how to take it out.
And then after that — all the jobs were in TV, like if I wanted to be a writer I had to be a TV writer, and so I wrote an hour long pilot called The Third Way and started using that as a sample. And that’s when everything took off for me. Because people actually wanted to make that from the start. And I said no. I felt like it wasn’t ready. I wanted to be the showrunner on it so I wouldn’t lose control and I needed to have more experience to get to do that. So it just became a sample and it got me a thousand meetings, Hollywood generals with producers and production companies and studios. And those meetings are what led to the jobs that I have now.
Drew: Was that also what got you an agent?
Jen: No, I got a writing agent through my acting agent. And she’s the one who told me I really needed a drama pilot in order to get the meetings for the work. And then from there it got bigger and I got a whole team.
Drew: Speaking of acting, about how many auditions do you have each month?
Jen: Maybe one or two? It’s kind of pathetic honestly. Compared to other working actors at my level I have remarkably few auditions. And the tough part about that is auditioning very much is a numbers game. To be the perfect fit for a role is so rare. It’s kind of like dating. You just have to date a lot of people and hope that the right fit happens. But the fact is we’re still at a point where trans actors pretty much only get called in for trans roles. And trans roles are still few and far between. And generally not very good. And if I do get called in for something that’s not a trans role I’m competing against a countless number of very talented, usually experienced white cis women who are also struggling to get work in Hollywood. And I just become one in a million. It’s still very tough for trans actors.
Drew: When you say the roles aren’t very good I imagine that both means quality but also politically. And knowing you, how often do you turn down auditions and have you ever turned down a part after getting offered it?
Jen: I’ve never turned down a part after getting offered it because I won’t go that far. (laughs)
Drew: (laughs) Right.
Jen: I have a… I don’t know. How do I put this nicely? I can… I can be a bit much. I can be very unchecked in my opinions. And I don’t regret it. I’ve told casting directors in the room that parts are problematic or that projects shouldn’t get made or should at least be rewritten. And I kind of felt like it was important for me to do for a number of reasons. When I’m in an audition room often it will be Angelica and Isis and Trace and Alexandra and Rain — it’s the same group of us. And because I’ve gotten enough work to get by and because I’m primarily a writer I feel like I have a bit more latitude. I’m also white and a bit older than some of the other girls, so I’ll often speak up so they don’t have to. I’ve sometimes taken auditions knowing I would never take the part just so I can get in the room and tell the casting director hey you’ve got to rewrite this part it’s terrible. (laughs)
Drew: That’s amazing.
Jen: I rarely won’t audition at all because I want to take that opportunity to connect with someone and let them know. Usually I try to do it in a respectful way. Because I just want things to get better. And I will say things have changed a lot in the last year or two pretty radically. There are more trans parts. The trans parts that are there are better. And I get more auditions that aren’t for trans people. Just because the level that I’m at now I’m being considered for more roles. And all the advocacy work that we’ve done behind the scenes has made directors more open to casting trans people in non-trans roles.
Drew: When you’ve spoken up in those situations, what’s been the range of how people have responded?
Jen: Sometimes people have wanted to hire me to be a consultant or have been willing to change the part. But, I mean, I sat down with one director and explained to her why the whole premise of her movie wasn’t feasible and she recoiled and went back into her position and did it exactly the way she wanted to. And with the Matt Bomer movie I never made it past the casting director. I told them they were going to have a big problem if this movie came out with Matt Bomer and then it never went further than that. It ranges.
Drew: So Tales of the City and Clarice are both shows that are building off of these thirty year old works of art. And obviously the original Tales has a lot better intentions than Silence of the Lambs — there’s a very big difference between Anna Madrigal and Buffalo Bill.
Jen: Yeah I’d say that. (laughs)
Drew: But it’s still a product of its time and the cis people who wrote it and made it and acted in it. I know with Clarice you first got involved as a consultant but when approaching projects like this how do you feel a confidence with the people involved especially when they’re cis?
I think it’s really easy for us to get tokenized and to get in situations where they’re pushing forward a supporting actor or even just a consultant to do the press and sort of sign off on something that isn’t very good. Knowing you, you would never talk up something that you didn’t actually stand behind, so when you’re first signing onto a project — especially ones that have these histories — what are those conversations like?
Jen: It really has everything to do with the creators. And just a vibe check really. I just have to feel like they listen to me and will be in conversation and stay open. It’s their attitude. With Tales of the City it was very different though, because just reading the sides — I think there were parts of five scenes — and even then I felt like it was the best part I ever read as a trans person. It was fucking brilliant. I was so in awe of it that I went in with just pure enthusiasm. And then as soon as I met Alan (Poul) the director I just trusted him. I just liked him and we hit it off from the beginning. But the script was so good my only concern was if I could do it. Usually my job as an actor is to elevate the material — take what’s there and make it better. But Tales of the City was the first time that I had a part where I felt unsure if I even could elevate the material. I had to rise to meet the material. That was really scary for me. I didn’t want to let the script down. I just thought it was so good and so complicated and layered and rich and demanding. So for me it was always the opposite there. Alan and Lauren (Morelli), the showrunner, were just the best collaborators I ever had. I absolutely loved everyone involved in that show. The whole thing felt very magical for me from start to finish.
With Clarice that was different. I mean, that’s a fucking network procedural on CBS. I had hella concerns. But Alex (Kurtzman, co-creator of Clarice) already had a bit of a track record working with trans people. And Nick (Adams, GLAAD’s Director of Transgender Representation) had already been working with them extensively. I met with Elizabeth Klaviter (a writer and producer on Clarice) about it and she seemed like someone I could trust. And at that point — this was about a year ago — I felt so much more empowered. Disclosure was out in the world and I had gotten to a point in my career where I had plenty going on and I could’ve said no. So I felt very empowered in that one from the beginning to be like this is how it is, you’ve got to do it this way or you cannot do it this way. So I felt pretty good about that situation. And also about the fact that they had hired Eleanor Jean to write one of the episodes. And then once I was in the writers room and got to know the writers I felt like we would be okay here.
The big X factor would just be what the network did with it. But I trusted the players enough and I trusted my own voice enough. I trusted the impact that Disclosure had that this was a somewhat safe bet. And then the symmetry of it for me felt right. So much of what I do is just by my gut and intuition. And I liked the narrative of having the beginning of my transition marked with a reference to Buffalo Bill and having talked about that in Disclosure, having the makers of Clarice see Disclosure, and getting the chance to do it right. It felt like I could close this circle in a way that felt right to me.
Drew: Was Eleanor already hired when you got involved?
Jen: Yeah she was hired before I was. They had already brought her on to write the episode that introduced the character and first address the issue of Buffalo Bill. And she had already been a writer on Mrs. Fletcher, so I’d worked with her.
Drew: Right.
Jen: So I knew there was already a lot there. And I was initially just brought on as a consultant to oversee the three episode arc since she was only writing one episode. I would be in the writers room for all of it and oversee casting and all of that. So I knew I wasn’t alone there which is also really helpful.
Drew: Yeah that’s important. Also I love Mrs. Fletcher so much.
Jen: It was a lot of fun. But that was another one where I actually had a lot of issues with the book. So when I first sat down and met with the showrunners I told them all my issues. I laid them all out in our first meeting and I left that meeting thinking I was going to get fired. (laughs)
Drew: (laughs)
Jen: I basically told Tom (Perrotta) that he’d written a textbook cliché trans character. But from the start he wanted to do it better. He wanted to do it right. So he listened. He wanted to be in conversation. So we recreated the character for the screen.
Drew: That’s really good to know. On all three of those projects, how many other trans people were involved? Eleanor, of course, and I know Thomas (Page McBee) wrote on Tales and there were other trans actors on that as well. Were there any trans people on the crew?
Jen: Well, on Tales I was in a bottle episode with a completely different cast and we had a lot of trans actors which was great. Let’s see… on Mrs. Fletcher our prop master was trans so that was nice there was at least one crew member. I remember when we did our camera test and the prop master came up to me and here was this trans woman it was such a profound experience for me. Like oh my God! I’m not alone here! That was really exciting.
Tales was the type of show where I feel like a couple people came out as trans…
Drew: (laughs)
Jen: It always happens. If you have enough trans people on set.
Drew: We’re contagious.
Jen: So yeah a couple trans people here and there. Not a lot. But enough that I didn’t feel like I was alone which was a nice change.
Drew: Because yeah I imagine on a lot of other jobs you’ve had you’re probably the only trans person on set?
Jen: Oh yeah. The show Nashville which was my first network thing I had done. Walking onto that show about country music filmed in Nashville when my character was there to be trans — that was her function in the story — I’m pretty sure that I was the first out trans person that most people in that crew had ever met. And I was the only trans person there, so that’s a kind of pressure. But it’s just not that way anymore which is really nice. Like two of my co-stars on Clarice have trans kids and talked to me about them. It’s a very different world now.
Drew: Yeah I even know just from my experiences being on sets that there’s such a range between active aggression and well-meaning things that are still difficult to navigate — because, as you said, sometimes you’re the first trans person people are meeting. But most of the time in my experience it’s not malicious. And I came out in 2017 and that year really only did theatre stuff so my first production jobs after coming out were 2018/2019 and things over the last five years every year have just been changing so much. But I’ve still dealt with a lot.
I mean, even the movie I’m working on now, the only trans women around are Trace and I.
Jen: Really?
Drew: Yeah and look, it’s such a great group of people. And a lot of queer people. And the cis people on this project have been open to listening to Trace and I and making changes and really want to do it right. But just how the industry functions we’re still often alone or in the vast minority even when it’s our stories being told. And when you’re an actor — I don’t need to tell you this — you’re being put in such a vulnerable position and have so much work to be doing. Dealing with the other stuff whether it’s comments from crew members or if you’re on location dealing with how someone in a hotel in Nashville speaks to you — it’s this added layer of work that actors who don’t have marginalized identities or aren’t secluded from people with their experiences in this way don’t have to. I imagine that can be really challenging.
Jen: Yes. But I don’t know any other way.
Drew: Right.
Jen: I think it’s just a part of being a first wave of something. You have to deal with extra things. But I’m just grateful to be part of the wave at all. So I just kind of accept all that. Yeah I have to work a lot harder, I have to deal with things that other people don’t, it makes my job more difficult. But I’m lucky to be where I am. I’m lucky to get work. And I am the result of the struggles of many other people who had to work a lot harder than I did so I could have these opportunities. And there’s something profoundly satisfying when you start to see the world change around you and it does get better. Like seeing so many young trans actors now is so deeply gratifying. And knowing there are trans actors young enough that they don’t remember a time when there weren’t trans people on TV.
I would say as somebody who works in social justice, your goal is kind of to be forgotten and to be taken for granted. Like I love the fact that it’s just considered obvious now that trans people should play trans parts. Because I had to have that fight so many times. I mean, I can’t tell you how many years I spent just working on that one argument. Here’s why it’s important for trans people to play trans parts. How many generals, how many auditions, did I spend half the time trying to make that argument. Regardless of whether that person was going to hire me or I was going to get that part I wanted to leave that meeting or that audition having changed someone’s mind. That was half my work. Just fighting for that space to exist at all. And now I see people articulating the argument for trans people playing trans parts that I made in Disclosure not even knowing where that argument comes from, just arguing it like it’s a given, like it’s obvious. That’s profoundly gratifying.
Drew: Yeah I mean my perspective being on a sets right now is as someone who knew that you existed when I was first coming out and had heard you making that argument on a podcast and had seen Her Story and had watched Orange is the New Black and knew about all these other trans people working in the industry. My expectation of how I should be treated is so much higher.
One of my favorite moments in Disclosure is when you’re talking about the scene in I Am Cait where the father talks about how lucky he is to have a child who is trans and how it completely changed what you thought was possible. And that’s what you’ve given to me and what so many people have given to me. To be in a situation where I’m like of course we should be on set, of course we should be acting in things, of course we should be here and actually we should be treated better and we shouldn’t have to deal with the microaggressions. I’m very aware that it’s such a privilege that I have to even be expected to be treated better.
Jen: That’s wonderful. I love hearing that. I love the fact that y’all will be fighting for stuff that I never even knew I could fight for. We each go a little bit further. It’s deeply gratifying.
Drew: Well, thank you so much for talking with me. I’m really grateful to know you from afar and now know you a little bit closer. And I’m just so grateful for your talent as well as your patience and work and fight and everything. I’m so excited for more and more of your pitches to be bought and turned into things, so we don’t have brilliant scripts and pitch decks sitting on computers and instead they’re actually on screen and we can all watch them and enjoy them.
Jen: Yeah I hope so. I’m excited for what I have in the works right now. Hopefully some of it gets out in the world.
Drew: I hope so. I think it will because things are changing.
Jen: Yeah. And keep up your work too, Drew. Criticism is very important to me. It’s a vital part of the artistic ecosystem. One of my big issues with queer media over the years has been the lack of honest criticism. I feel like so often we get into a situation where we want to support anything just because it’s queer and we lower our standards. I’m astonished at how much content we celebrate just because it’s queer rather than trying to hold it up to a higher standard. Like I think queer content should be even better. I want to put up a higher bar for ourselves. And one of the ways that we do that is by having critics who make a real effort to hold people to those standards.
It’s just an aspect of the artistic ecosystem that I’m really fascinated by. I remember being on Tales of the City one night and listening to Armistead Maupin and Laura Linney talk about that specifically. About how AIDS devastated the theatre world and one of the ways in which it did it was because the most discerning audience in the theatre world had been gay men. They demanded a certain quality. They were trenchant critics. And the loss of that generation of audience goers and critics allowed for theatre to kind of become pablum. It changed theatre because you could get away with crap. And theatre is still struggling to recover from that. Fran Lebowitz talks about some of that now as well.
So having good, astute critical critics who want to the material to be great, who want queer representation, but want good queer representation and are bold enough to stand out and demand it is an essential part of getting the kind of content that we deserve. I’m proud of you for being out there and speaking your mind and being honest. I encourage you to keep doing it and keep going further with it.
Drew: Thank you. It’s interesting being the youngest person on the Autostraddle TV Team and seeing the ways they were writing about queer media in 2010 and what they were writing about and forced to celebrate. They’re sort of in awe of my expectations. And a big part of that is there’s so much more now that I can have those expectations. Like I have seen the alternative — I have seen so much that is good. Even if some of the things that I’ve seen haven’t been done yet by a Hollywood studio, seeing it in a web series, seeing it in a movie from another country. Being able to see those things and know that we can do that here too and on a larger scale. And that’s a product of the progress that’s been made.
And you know me. I will continue to speak my mind. But always in a way that I hope is trying to understand all the factors involved in making something! Because I have a familiarity with the industry, I know all of the hoops that need to be jumped through, I know all the different voices discussing things, I know that what projects get made are not always up to the artists. A writer can have four scripts and the one that gets made is the one that fits most into what the executives want to see. And maybe the other ones were more interesting but this is the one that gets made. I’m aware of all those things and so I always want to have compassion toward other queer artists and especially especially toward other trans artists. But I do think it’s important to talk about all the nuances. And also acknowledge that things aren’t good or bad!
Jen: Well, we disagree there. (laughs)
Drew: (laughs) Oh yeah? You think things are just good or bad?
Jen: (laughs) No.
Drew: Euphoria is CANCELED.
Jen: (laughs) The fact is I can’t be critical the way I used to be because these people are my colleagues.
Drew: Of course.
Jen: But that’s why we need to have critics. And you’re kind of ideal because you want someone who gets it enough to know the challenges but is removed enough that they can be honest. To be like yeah I like this person, I want to see more of them, but that movie sucks. And be able to point out why — here’s where it fails, here’s how it could’ve been better.
Drew: Right. And I’m aware of the time limit on that. Well, hopefully. Hopefully, I only have a couple more years of being able to get away with that. I’m aware that whenever my own things start to happen I won’t be able to be as critical. I mean, even now I’m not going to be able to review Monica. I’m way too close to it.
Jen: Yeah.
Drew: The more you get involved in the industry the less freedom you have to critique. But luckily there are so many other trans critics and hopefully by the time I start making my own projects there will be even more to take over. I mean, that’s sort of how it happened for you. Before you had more mainstream success you were talking about these things very openly and I looked to that and was inspired by that.
Jen: Well, there you go. We’ll just continue the chain onward.