Welcome to So You’re Gay Now, a series where Autostraddle writers get back in touch with that person they went to school with/knew from summer camp/grew up next door to who has since come out to ask:

When did you know?
When did you come out?
How did you perceive the LGBTQ-friendliness of the environment we were in?
Did you want to make out with me?
Did you get a vibe from me?
Secret celeb/high school crushes?
What would you change?

I can’t think of sixth grade without thinking of Iah. She was the friend I could never quite believe I had: smart, outspoken, well-liked across all social groups. And she forever had a bit of mystery about her as the new kid who ultimately left as quickly as she’d come. She moved to Chile partway through the year after her dad went on sabbatical (a word I’d never heard but immediately hated) at work. My 10-year-old heart couldn’t imagine anything more devastating. This was right before the internet exploded across the world, so we couldn’t yet shrink the distance between us with emails or screen names. We missed the window by just enough. Naturally, I always wondered what became of her.

Imagine my delight when the answer turned out to be “gay rabbi in Ohio.”

Then and now.

That’s right, kids: the technology that showed up a few months too late the first time around repaid us in full. We’ve been internet friends for a while now, and recently had a marathon brunch (and FORGOT TO TAKE A PICTURE I KNOW I’M SORRY) during her visit home. Now she’s here to help us usher in Autostraddle’s long-gestating but positively inspired series, So You’re Gay Now.

Can you talk about who you are now, where you are now, and what our relationship was when we first met?

I’m a rabbi in Ohio now! I was recently ordained, I’m working on a book, and I’m doing some teaching. When you and I first met, we were in elementary school. We were part of the same group of weirdos [laughs]. It was my saving grace, because I was the new kid in fourth grade. And then we were part of the same group of nerds, which was awesome.

Yes! That was a strong group.

It really was.

When was the first time we were actually in class together?

I think we became friends in fifth grade, but we only had class together in sixth grade. And I don’t think anyone cool was in my fourth grade class either. [Both laugh]

Yeah, I think the rest of us were all in the class down the hall from you. I remember that you weren’t there when I first arrived. Where did you move from?

I had gone to school over the hill, like the next town over. After we moved, my mom got a permit to allow me to stay at that school, so I started another year there. But then halfway through, who knows why, I decided I wanted to switch. What I told my mom was that I wanted to know the kids in the neighborhood. But why that was an urgent, midway-through-the-year thing, I don’t really understand.

From my impression of you as a little kid, though, that actually doesn’t surprise me. You always seemed like a very opinionated child.

Yes, I was.

Like when our Republican congressman came to our class to answer questions and you asked him for his thoughts on soft money. [Both laugh]

That’s one that came straight from the parents!

Most of my memories of you, including that one, are from sixth grade. But that’s also when there was the absolute trauma of you moving [both laugh]. I look back on that event, and it’s the first thing from my childhood that makes it really clear that I was gay: how upset I was over you leaving.

Aww! I’m sorry for your pain, but that makes my heart warm.

Yeah! I think back and it’s so obvious that I had a crush on you. This was also before anyone had cell phones, so whenever we’d want to see each other outside of class, we’d have to call and ask each other over, which we did often. But I remember I was so nervous to call you a lot of the time, I would dial the first six digits of your number and then hang up.

What?! [Both laugh] That’s adorable.

I know.

And I would have been so thrilled to hear from you! I always liked hanging out with you so much.

It didn’t make our friendship weird at all. It wasn’t like there was tension, or some secret thing happening that I wasn’t telling you about. I didn’t know.

No, not at all. The timing is interesting, because soon after that, when I was in Chile, was when I first remember being like, “Am I gay?!”

“There is this one coded entry in my journal from that time — no other entries, this is the only one in code, perhaps expressly for this purpose — that was like ‘What is this? Am I? Is this normal? Could I be gay?'”

Tell me more! My realization experience was so not like that.

There is this one coded entry in my journal from that time — no other entries, this is the only one in code, perhaps expressly for this purpose — that was like “What is this? Am I? Is this normal? Could I be gay?” And then there was some guy that was interested in me, so I was like “Okay, let’s do that!” But I was never really that into it.

After that, I went to all-girls school, and I had been going to all-girls camp. So I thought “Oh, maybe it’s just because of all-girls school.” So part of why I went to coed boarding school in England in tenth grade was to see. I was super into the straight dating scene there… and then very quickly fell in love with my best friend. [Laughs]

As you do. That’s basically what happened to me in high school. So when would you say that you knew?

I would say middle school was a lot of me thinking I was interested in men and women, but not being able to accept it. Especially because I had a secret love connection with my best friend in eighth grade —

Oh wow, okay! [Laughs]

Yeah! We’d stay up all night and watch Queer as Folk and cuddle. [Laughs] I really wanted to talk about it, and she didn’t. But we’re still actually really good friends, which is awesome.

I’d say I really came out to myself at the end of tenth grade, when I was in love with my best friend at boarding school. We used to make out with each other when we were drunk. And then I wrote her this letter being like, “Will you go out with me?” and she said “Can’t we just be best friends who make out?” Our relationship changed, and she freaked out for some reason and told everyone about this letter. So then I was outed. I kind of lied about it at first, and then decided to just be like, “Yeah, and?” People would ask if I was a lesbian, and I would say “Girls, boys, whoever. It’s the person, not the gender.” And everyone was like, “Oh, okay, cool.” I was pleasantly surprised. I basically only dated girls after that.

And then, when I was about seventeen, I came home from a Shabbat service where I had just staffed this event about gay people in the military, and my mom was like, “So… are you invested in this stuff because it’s important, or because it’s personal?” And I said both. And she was like, “Great!” But my parents had a hard time with the idea of bisexuality, even though I was only dating girls.

It must have been the first year of college when I realized I was actually a lesbian. But it was a subtle transition, because I just hadn’t been interested in guys for so long. And everyone I knew in college was gay. I only had, like, one straight friend.

I came out in high school, the spring semester of eleventh grade. So it sounds like we were on pretty similar paths, time-wise; it’s just that we didn’t go to the same school anymore. I feel like we would have been friends in high school, though.

Totally. We definitely would have.

“I think it’s really interesting how we all gravitated toward each other. Similar things happened with my camp friends. Maybe we were all seeking out kindred spirits.”

Did you have a sense of whether our elementary school was queer-friendly at all? Was that even on your mind, or were you not there yet?

There was one time — I think it was fifth grade — I was wearing a shirt with a rainbow on it. I loved rainbows. I always wanted a shirt with a rainbow, and I finally had one. And I think it was one of the popular guys who was just like, “What are you wearing? You know that means you’re gay, right?” I was very upset by that.

And there was a lot of stuff going on with [redacted] and his gender presentation. How he was treated, how he was considered “a girl” because he wore bell bottoms. I think a lot of that was reacting to the heteronormativity, even at that age. I fell prey to that too, dating people in sixth grade because I thought that was what you were supposed to be doing, even though I didn’t want to.

Yes, especially with [redacted], there was a lot of gender policing. I think about him all the time, actually. I haven’t seen him since, but I think about it constantly. I didn’t participate in it, but I didn’t try and stop it, either. If I was a teacher at that school now, I would love and defend that kid to the ends of the earth. But at that age, I just didn’t understand. I knew I didn’t feel good about it, but I didn’t understand what I could do.

Totally. Plus he was new, and he was friends with a lot of the people who bullied him the most. Like all of those girls who were obsessed with *NSYNC [laughs]. I remember his hair being a big deal, too, because of the way it was styled more like a girl’s.

There are a surprising number of queer people who came out of that little group we were part of.

Yes! And who knows, there might be even more. I would not be surprised. I think it’s really interesting how we all gravitated toward each other. Similar things happened with my camp friends. Maybe we were all seeking out kindred spirits.

When we found each other online again, so many years later, and I realized you were gay, that was the most gratifying thing. Because oh, here’s this person I was so close to — and I knew there was a reason!

And that it wasn’t just in your head.

Exactly! I always tell people now that my gaydar was on point from childhood.

Absolutely. And I remember being really excited to find out that you were gay too. [Both laugh]

“Having you come back into my life after all this time, it’s a good reminder of the importance of people and how much you can learn from each other.”

Did you get a vibe from me when we were kids? I was an aggressively gay child, but I don’t know if it actually came off that way at the time, or if it’s just something I see so clearly looking back at photos.

No, I don’t think I would have. When I found out, I was surprised, and then immediately not surprised. [Laughs] I always saw you as very much your own person, and so that made it less shocking. But I hadn’t thought about anyone that way at the time.

Right. I wasn’t really evaluating anyone that way either, regardless of their gender or sexuality. It just hadn’t registered yet. What do you mean by “my own person”?

You did your own thing. Part of it was definitely because of your body and the constraints that came with that. But the way you did it was very much… you were just Carrie. There was a lot of posturing in elementary school, pretending to be something or showing off how smart you were, but you weren’t one of the people who played those games. The thing I really liked about you was that you were you, and honest about it.

You also just always had a really nice energy, too, which I really valued. A nice and trustworthy presence — which I would not say about most of the people we went to school with. [Both laugh]

Thank you! That’s all so sweet. And I would say that about you now! When we met up a few weeks ago and had brunch for four hours —

Which was amazing.

It was so good! And it really took me back to a lot of the things that I enjoyed about our friendship originally. I always felt very safe and understood when I was with you. The fact that you wanted to be friends, and that we were both really smart and enjoyed hanging out together, made me really happy.

Right. And we had real conversations about things, even as kids.

Right! It was validating to know there was someone in the world who was smart and interesting who thought that I was too. I didn’t have to pretend around you. We could just be ourselves, and that was enough. That’s amazing in friendship at any age.

Definitely. You’re just an easy person to talk to. And having you come back into my life after all this time, it’s a good reminder of the importance of people and how much you can learn from each other. I admire so much about what you’re up to now.

“I miss having a queer community. I miss it being normal. So it’s good to be reminded that there’s an affinity, and something about queer culture and queer people.”

I have to say, I admire your ability to exist as a gay rabbi in Ohio, especially right now.

[Laughs] I didn’t realize how much I was feeling the stress of Ohio until I was in L.A. recently. But I also love it, and it’s given me opportunities I wouldn’t have otherwise. One of the hardest transitions for me was going from college to rabbinic school. I was very involved in queer organizing in college, so everyone knew I was gay, and I never had to come out, really. And all of a sudden, when I came to Ohio, there were no gay people. All of my closest friends were super straight, with kids.

My second year, I had a small pulpit in the middle of nowhere. My third year, I was there again, plus I was working in a retirement home. And for the first time ever, I was like, “Oh god, I’m in the closet.” I didn’t try to put myself in the closet — but by not saying that I’m gay, everyone’s assuming that I’m straight. The old people are talking about getting me a husband. I didn’t want to go there, so I would just say “I’m not interested in dating.” Because I wasn’t! But it was awkward. I wasn’t dating anyone, and I didn’t have an ex I could just drop into the conversation — which is how I usually come out to people. I didn’t want people thinking about my sexuality, especially as a lesbian and a rabbi.

And then one of my congregants had her son come out to her. I had always thought he was gay, but obviously wasn’t going to say anything [laughs]. She came to me looking for advice on how to be supportive of this 17-year-old in rural Ohio. And then I came out to her. Like, “Just so you know, I’m gay too.” And, y’know, “Just tell him you love him.” Afterward, I wasn’t sure if she’d told people or not — but I was really grateful I’d been given the opportunity to come out, because I wouldn’t have orchestrated it myself.

Once I did a gay panel — like, interfaith gayness — in Cincinnati, and I was shocked because I was like, “Of course you can be gay and religious,” and all the other speakers were like, “No you can’t.”

Whoa.

It was bad. I was a student, and they were all professionals. They were also all middle-aged men. I didn’t expect it; I was thinking of the wrong audience.

But much like the way that we found each other in elementary school, the thing that is really nice about the Midwest — at least the part of it that I live in — is that there are a lot of alternative people. And there are a lot of very, very liberal people. But everyone is so conscious of being in this environment that they’re so excited when they find another person. And there are different ways that you let someone know what your politics are before you really let them know. Since the election, I feel like it’s more clear where people stand because they’re so upset about it. They go out of their way, which is nice.

Is there anything else you want to say about our mutually gay friendship spanning 20 years?

I’m just really glad that we’ve reconnected. It’s deeply gratifying, especially right now, as I’m going through a lot of transitions and sometimes second guessing myself. It’s been a nice reminder of how things stay the same, as well as how things change. Because I feel like one of the things that’s difficult for me now, as a rabbi, is that I miss having a queer community. I miss it being normal. So it’s good to be reminded that there’s an affinity, and something about queer culture and queer people.

Same. I mean, from here on out, I plan on always being your friend.

Oh, me too. Absolutely.

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